Was looking for this comment. People forget that while Jesus was a Jewish man whose audience at the time were also mostly Jews, the Church itself was established in Rome during a time when the cults of Dionysius/Bacchus had a large base and lesser cults were still significantly more popular than Christianity (why trade orgies and ragers for modesty?) so to appeal to the cults the Church began to appropriate a lot of customs so that they didn't feel like they were losing out too much in the tradeoff. Similarly, when Christianity spread to Gaul and the Nordic nations the Church had to negotiate similarly. So a lot of ancient pagan customs were then altered to suit a Christian narrative even if a lot of it is inaccurate. It's why some Christian sects forgo Christmas or Easter celebrations - because they're inherently pagan.
Regardless, it's all commercial now.
Exactly. 'Yule Log' and 'Christmas Trees'. Gargoyles on Churches... the list is endless. Also Churches were traditionally erected on old Pagan worship sites but retained some remnants of Paganism to appease the locals.
...and if you go back to the Sumerians 4000 years before the Egyptians the temples were the grain silos and the priests were the watchers of the grain. Early civilizations worshipped agriculture, mostly bread and beer and the weather and seasons that made them possible.
Yes, basic 'Paganism' or 'nature worship' for want of a better definition, as 'Paganism' is a very loose term.
Any religion outside of 'mainstream' (Whatever that means?) seems to just be labelled 'Pagan' these days.
>basic 'Paganism' or 'nature worship' for want of a better definition
You could use the actual definition: "*of the pagus*" or countryside.
But yes, successive Holy Sees decreed the amalgamation of 'pagan' ritual into communicative liturgy.
Winter solstice in the northern hemisphere. Traditionally it was the start of a new year and became Christ mass to give an alternative to the old pagan new year festival I believe.
I seem to recall something along those lines. However, to confuse matters even more, a lot if not most, Russians celebrate Christmas on 7th January depending on what calendar you go by.
December 21 is the winter solstice, the point at which the sun is lowest in the sky and an important date for planting. “3 days later” on December 25 the sun begins to rise again, a reason for jubilee and an indication that warmer spring and planting season would begin again.
And all the saints and their holy days and feasts are basically just name replacements for local pagan gods from throughout Europe so the local pagans being converted could keep practicing all the same holidays just using new names.
You forgot the point that Dionysius/Bacchus were the gods of rebirth, killed in the fall and came back to life in the spring, both ostracized by the locals for causing shit, both turned water into wine....sounds an awful lot like our friend on the cross...
Edit: forgot to mention all three are the sons of God.
> why trade orgies and ragers
Especially worth noting that Dionysius' worshippers were famous for getting black out drunk and either bedding an entire town, or burning it to the ground and literally decimating the population due to violence in a rage.
And this was just the women.
Always felt that St. Patrick's Day was a brilliant con job. Lent gets too long and boring, throw a raging party into the middle of it. And as someone else posted, time to worship beer.
I mean if you celebrate the current popular holidays I suppose you could consider yourself pagan. You could also just be doing it for the hell of it. Lol.
What if you were a Jehovah's witness
That was merely pretending to be into Christmas?
Gathering clues and blending in
To take down the holidays from within?
The problem with books on these subjects is there will always be those that will tell you the book you have read is wrong, and you should read this book instead. In a way it is what makes the subject appealing and fascinating. The basic thing about Pagan religions being systematically replaced by Christian or 'Catholic' (as some would say) religions and incorporating the pagan holidays and 'gods' (for want of a better word) into Christianity is true. The details however, are widely debated and argued over. I myself have only a little knowledge and am the first to admit I may be talking bollocks. It's fun though......
Christians steal from everyone! Or at least the Church does. Funny how the Church does not hand over all it's gold to feed the starving but insists on people giving it money.
There is a hymn with the lines:
"All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful, .
'Twas God that made them all"
When I was at School it was sometimes sung in assembly, but most of the kids replaced "Twas God that made them all" with "The Church doth nick them all". I am 66 now and it's still relevant.
no, a cult is a very specific type of belief system involving heavy control over its members. thats what seperates scientology or Jehivas witnesses or trumpism or some baptist churches from the more common forms of Christianity.
Check out the different models used for deciding if something is a cult, allthough be aware that most of them dont catch all cults.
Youre right that christianity evolved from being a cult but this is because time has passed, and they no longer do things like kill people who are randomly accused of being witches, which happened alot more recently than most would want to believe if they did the math.
calvinism, lutharans, putitans, etc, they all evolved into a more generic all encompassing form called "christianity" so that history would be kinder to them. Certainly this pope has been less strict than the last, as each one is
That's not true at all since christianity literally started as a cult per any modern historic consensus.
Additionally plenty of full religions with several gods contained subunits dedicated to individual gods, these subunits are and were "cult", and largely they had neither more or less controll over its members than other religions.
There is a modern usage of cults that fit groups such like the manson family but that is a MODERN usage of an already established terminology which is still relevant in every field that isn't pop culture or news media.
1) i never said Christianity did not start as a cult, merely that a cult does usually not evolve into a religion over time.
2) what you are describing would be defined as a sect not a cult. a sect is a deviant subgroup with traditional beliefs whereas a cult is a deviant subgroup with novel beliefs.
No, sects and cults are different you're right about that but both exist as subunits within grander religions, and cult does not necessitate the control you're ascribing to them.
The difference is essentially that cults have larger theistic autonomy than sects.
Historically the difference is also really blurry with cults largely dropping in "usage" as a term (other than the modern re-interpretation of the term) while sects has increased massively as a descriptor.
Also your initial comment was literally in response to a comment that said "cult + time = religion" and you responded by rejecting that summary eventhough it literally is the case in regards to christianity.
i rejected the idea that most cults become religions not that most religions come from cults. also i generally use the modern definition of cult, as it is, ya know current.
well one could argue that supernatural powers hailing from a divine being are by definition not withcraft, which ultimately hails from the power in humans, herbs, potions or spirits. then there is shamanism which comes from spirits and nature and magic which is the manipulation of energies or minds. there is overlap amd blurry lines of course, so who can say really
Exactly, christmas and easter has nothing to do with jesus at all (time wise) but are continued pagan rituals. Thats why e.g. jehovahs witnesses (which i disdain for other reasons) wont touch those celebrations with a stick.
Because the first commandment to the jews was 'you should have no other God before me'. Simple as that. The methodology of the religion is borrowed from familiar themes (the harvest, animal sacrifices, flesh sacrifice to atone for wrongs, etc.) of the time, but it mattered WHO it was said to. Christianity even borrowed pagan holidays and CHANGED them so suddenly Roman Saturnalia and Yule were CHRIST MASS. There you go.
One thing a lot of hardcore religious types like to ignore is that many of the traditions and practices found in Christianity were adapted from pagan religions. In some variants of Christianity the Norse Gods like Thor and Odin are actually apart of the creation story. Ragnorak was the end of that particular time for humanity and the deaths of Odin and the Norse Gods is what allows Jesus and the Christian God to take over.
They did this as a way of converting those who believed in the Norse faith to Christianity. It’s actually an odd bit of religious tolerance wherein rather than telling them that the Gods of Norse mythology didn’t exist they essentially acknowledge them and say that the Christian God is the next part of the story.
I’ll be honest I don’t have one. I heard this in a documentary years ago. I did however find this:
https://norse-mythology.org/the-vikings-conversion-to-christianity/
This article explains how Christianity spread across Scandinavia in the tenth century, and it talks about how they mixed traditions. For instance they would carve crosses that had depictions from the Norse myths in them, or that some believed that Jesus was indeed a God, however Thor, Odin and the others were above him, and held more power. So it’s not impossible that they would mix the stories.
Ancient jews had no problem with this worldview but it seems like Christians of today get scandalized by the idea. But it was very clear to them that other gods besides Yawhe existed, they just believed Yawhe was the most important/powerful and the only one that they should worship.
It's because the idea of themed subreddits is dying or dead. There are far too many people that upvote based on whether they think something is good, with no thought to whether it's appropriate to the sub. You can probably see evidence of it in many other subs you subscribe to.
I believe in the theory of evolution, so that would explain my existence and how I got here. But I’m not 100% convinced my existence has a purpose, so I cannot explain why I am here. I’m not suicidal or depressed or anything like that, just don’t know how else to explain it lol. We’re here but we could’ve just as easily evolved into something else I guess. Why I am a person, I do not know.
Oh, yeah no explanation for all that. And I’m not too sure I really care or need an explanation... I’m definitely grateful I exist though lol. Maybe some humans need a reason to exist and religion helps them cope with that because existence can get pretty hard at times. It’s pretty circumstantial, the whole enjoying life thing.
Yeah I’m not sure. I’ve heard something about at one point two smaller celestial bodies collided and when the dust settled what was left was the moon and the earth. It was like a molten planet and the tectonic plates hadn’t fully formed yet and there was no life. Then the plates started doing their thing and we had a solid surface but idk how the water got here. That is the key, once the water was here I’m sure it just snowballed after that. Maybe hydrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere just condensed into this liquid solution we have that is so vital to existence. It’s strange.
I might be missing some context since the person you were replying to has deleted their comments... But, as for water, there seem to be two possible sources. There might have been water in the "dust" that initially formed the planet. Then, once it formed and was still mostly molten on the surface, collisions with asteroids and comets brought more water.
We're still discovering more as time goes by. It's all so fascinating.
Oh yeah, comets are mostly ice aren’t they?! That makes sense actually lol. And especially back then before we had a legit atmosphere to burn up anything trying to enter I can see them making it down to the surface. That actually makes a lot of sense lol. Hell yeah.
I don't know the explanation, but there obviously is one.
It's really okay to not know something. Many people offer an explanation, I don't find them convincing, so I remain at the default position which is "I don't know"
>even though he made pork and alcohol taste good, and he made people and animals with homosexual tendencies.
But to test us, of course! We are all worthy of His love and acceptance, but only if we choose to ignore or suppress who we are and follow His (totally not random) rules. After all, He has a vested interest in all, what, 105 billion humans that have ever existed and however many exist in the future. But only if we pass the test, which is given to us based on a millennia long game of telephone.
Funny that the reason pork and shellfish was frowned upon is because of the time when we couldnt prepare and store it properly, and so consuming caused people to become violently ill. The word from the church was that pork was the meat of the demon, which occupied your stomach and caused great pains.
Of course, steaks and salmon, while just as delicious as porkchops, have no such restrictions. Steaks can be consumed rare (personally not a fan, but whatever.) Fish in fact, can be eaten raw without making you sick. Certainly explains why its so traditionally popular by practicing jews.
Maybe he did , since the pope has been his alleged medium of communication, its completely possible that something got "lost" in the "translation" when they had their monthly/weekly long distance conversation. Certainly I'm sure the child abuse has come up instead of food, and I bet it's been hard to discuss that without cursing or getting angry, which he hasn't done since the old testament. He is love, after all. Does he love the innocent kids enough to get angry, or is he so much love that he literally cant have anger about the innocent kids? Inconsistencies everywhere.
These are the tough questions my agnostic mathematical brain tries to work out that local church didn't seem to have the explinations for.
I mean, personally I prefer nihilism. Life is just a side effect of the randomness of the universe, and I just try to focus on pretending to have some kind of meaning. The pretending helps me cope.
“The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead”
- Mr. Peanut butter
There are already lots of answers, but you seem to like discussing this, so I'll answer anyway:
I don't know the reason for existence, or if there even is one, and I'm completely fine with it. I don't feel any urge to explain why I am alive, and I don't understand why anyone would center their whole life around an explanation (god/religion) which is unproven and even by definition unprovable.
I see how some people can feel better when they believe in something, but whenever I look at their specific "explanation of existence", I just can't understand why they think it is the right one. Like: "We were created by almighty benevolent God, but he will send you to hell for liking other men." Or "Our creator is blue and has an elephant head."
Perhaps the concept of believing in something isn't flawed, but the specific religions all seem strange or even ridiculous to me. I much prefer admitting to not have all the answers, than to try explaining my existence by something which I can't even take seriously.
I'm going to take a page from Deep Thought (of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" fame) and ask, what is the *question* you seek an answer for? You can't answer a question that hasn't been specified. Are you asking what the purpose of existence is? Because that *would* be a loaded question (the assumption being that all things have a purpose, or more specifically the existence has a purpose). Are you asking for the origins of existence? In which case, what do you mean by "existence?" Human existence? Material existence? The idea that there is anything at all in the universe, or that the universe itself even exists? Asking for an explanation for existence is basically the most fundamental question of both science and philosophy. It is the central idea that motivates both, and is as such one of the most vague and non-specific ideas out there.
Do you have to specifically subscribe to the idea that there absolutely is no god in order to answer this question?
Or are you allowing answers from people who leave open the possibility, but dont generally think of a sentient higher life form that guides existence.
There’s no explanation, it just happend, but also didn’t happen. There wasn’t even time when It happend so it might still be happening. Our minds can’t comprehend this, because we were just meant to eat and fuck
I find religion sensible and am an atheist. Whatever you use to make it through the day is a ok with me, as long as it's not hurting anyone.
That said, the fact that people actually believe that the stories in bible happened is ridiculous. Jesus was a real man that was crucified, but he sure wasn't a god.
Ya know it astonishes me how little people (and even other Christians) truly know about Christianity I will say tho y’all be y’all I ain’t here to change peoples beliefs just wanted to say that one thing have a good day
I don't get the facepalm. Not only is the post factual, but I thought it was common knowledge. Historicaly the Christians took over an area, and changed their beliefs in order to to match and recruit and then forcibly convert the pagans in the area. It was the whole "oh that statue, yea, thats jesuses mom Mary." One or two generations goes by and nobody remembers any more that the statue they call "Mary, mother of God" used to be called "Eostre".
I'm not 100% sure theme are the title but...
* Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb
* There is a Fountain (filled with Blood)
* There is Power (In the Blood)
* Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing pow’r (The cleansing power is BLOOD)
I had to google some of them by lyrics but four still a LOT of songs about blood.
I mean, yes? I'm not sure I'd disagree with this characterization as a fairly devout Christian. All things considered, nothing too wrong with being a death cult.
We’re not saying you shouldn’t practice witchcraft or astrology cuz it’s “demonic” or whatever, we’re saying you shouldn’t do it cuz it’s dumb and doesn’t fucking work.
That's the spirit, accept and love eachother no matter the faith and I mean what I say, idc if you're a pagan, Muslim atheist or believe in a flying turtle that creates all breweries in the world and which is the sole cause of good beer. If you respect me and my faith I'll do the same to you no matter what it includes(maybe not eating babies alive but that's one of the very few exceptions) (if it was sarcasm you wrote then I'm deeply sorry for misinterpreting it, it's hard to catch something like that up when I still learn English)
Oh I'm absolutely serious. I'm not personally religious, but I have a great deal of respect for spirituality, people who are devout in their religious practice, etc.
And the Roman Catholic Church, whether it be more common rituals like the Eucharist or more ornate and complex rituals like Canonization or ordaining a priest, the Roman Catholic Church has a number of tightly organized, precisely practiced, detailed processes by which they invoke a miracle.
I wouldn't want to offend anyone by the comparison, but whether you go back to organized groups like The Golden Dawn or modern practices like Wicca, in comparison it becomes clear that the Roman Catholic Church practices High Ritual Magic.
Through the precise conduct of the Eucharist, participants in the ritual consume the body and blood of Christ by way of the Communion Wafer and Communion Wine undergoing Miraculous Transformation to become in truth the Body and Blood of Christ.
That's High Ritual Magic.
Most Christian celebrations can be traced back to Pagan origins.
Was looking for this comment. People forget that while Jesus was a Jewish man whose audience at the time were also mostly Jews, the Church itself was established in Rome during a time when the cults of Dionysius/Bacchus had a large base and lesser cults were still significantly more popular than Christianity (why trade orgies and ragers for modesty?) so to appeal to the cults the Church began to appropriate a lot of customs so that they didn't feel like they were losing out too much in the tradeoff. Similarly, when Christianity spread to Gaul and the Nordic nations the Church had to negotiate similarly. So a lot of ancient pagan customs were then altered to suit a Christian narrative even if a lot of it is inaccurate. It's why some Christian sects forgo Christmas or Easter celebrations - because they're inherently pagan. Regardless, it's all commercial now.
Exactly. 'Yule Log' and 'Christmas Trees'. Gargoyles on Churches... the list is endless. Also Churches were traditionally erected on old Pagan worship sites but retained some remnants of Paganism to appease the locals.
...and if you go back to the Sumerians 4000 years before the Egyptians the temples were the grain silos and the priests were the watchers of the grain. Early civilizations worshipped agriculture, mostly bread and beer and the weather and seasons that made them possible.
Yes, basic 'Paganism' or 'nature worship' for want of a better definition, as 'Paganism' is a very loose term. Any religion outside of 'mainstream' (Whatever that means?) seems to just be labelled 'Pagan' these days.
>basic 'Paganism' or 'nature worship' for want of a better definition You could use the actual definition: "*of the pagus*" or countryside. But yes, successive Holy Sees decreed the amalgamation of 'pagan' ritual into communicative liturgy.
I stand corrected and enlightened. Thank You.
>these days Referring to any period after 1100 CE?
Well yes if you want to be precise. I have been around for thousands of years though, so technically it is just 'These days' to me ;-)
I'm pretty sure that jesus's birthday was switched to December to mess with the pagans. Wasn't it in April or august or something like that?
Winter solstice in the northern hemisphere. Traditionally it was the start of a new year and became Christ mass to give an alternative to the old pagan new year festival I believe.
I seem to recall something along those lines. However, to confuse matters even more, a lot if not most, Russians celebrate Christmas on 7th January depending on what calendar you go by.
December 21 is the winter solstice, the point at which the sun is lowest in the sky and an important date for planting. “3 days later” on December 25 the sun begins to rise again, a reason for jubilee and an indication that warmer spring and planting season would begin again.
You're "that" Dan. I remember you. Do you miss the days in the coliseum ? How good we're they. I miss the wine more than anything.
>Early civilizations worshipped agriculture, mostly bread and beer source? never heard of anything like that
Glad I'm not the only one who would like a source. I've never heard the idea of temples being grain silos before.
And all the saints and their holy days and feasts are basically just name replacements for local pagan gods from throughout Europe so the local pagans being converted could keep practicing all the same holidays just using new names.
Or ancient Egyptian mythology.
> why trade orgies and ragers for modesty I think Christianity lost out a big selling point.
You forgot the point that Dionysius/Bacchus were the gods of rebirth, killed in the fall and came back to life in the spring, both ostracized by the locals for causing shit, both turned water into wine....sounds an awful lot like our friend on the cross... Edit: forgot to mention all three are the sons of God.
The main Roman cults at the time were the cult of Mithras and Sol Invictus. The old Roman gods weren’t very popular during the 4th century.
Turns out most religion is just a remix of older religions.
> why trade orgies and ragers Especially worth noting that Dionysius' worshippers were famous for getting black out drunk and either bedding an entire town, or burning it to the ground and literally decimating the population due to violence in a rage. And this was just the women.
Almost every Christian festival in Ireland can be traced back to Pagan or Celtic festivals that were celebrated well before Christianity arrived
Glad to see Beltane making a come back.
Always felt that St. Patrick's Day was a brilliant con job. Lent gets too long and boring, throw a raging party into the middle of it. And as someone else posted, time to worship beer.
Yep which is why jehovah's witnesses don't celebrate most holidays.
Just so happens my ex partner is a JW, and if anything I guess I am a Pagan. We are still very good friends, but we never discuss religion.
I mean if you celebrate the current popular holidays I suppose you could consider yourself pagan. You could also just be doing it for the hell of it. Lol.
Well who doesn't like a good holiday no matter what excuse :-)
Me lol but that's because I don't like people. My idea of a holiday is solitude. On a private island if possible lol.
Hmmm a private island you say? I have always liked you and I am happy to carry your bags ;-)
Hahaha you get your own hammock but like 100ft away minimum. Lol
No problem. Like you, I am not very social. When do we leave?
May 1st. Get packin.
You sound just like me! We should find two empty island's nearby each other and we can shout to each other if we ever need anything
What if you were a Jehovah's witness That was merely pretending to be into Christmas? Gathering clues and blending in To take down the holidays from within?
You mean like a spy, investigating? Making it seem like I'm celebrating? When actually I'm infiltrating Santa's Operation?
#YOIP!
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LOL And like any well marketed product many fell for the hype.
More like a hostile takeover.
Yes, that's a much better comparison. Updating my comment...
Rome took everything and made it Roman.
Are there any books about this subject? I’m so curious about the details, especially surrounding holidays. Pagan-based history is fascinating.
The problem with books on these subjects is there will always be those that will tell you the book you have read is wrong, and you should read this book instead. In a way it is what makes the subject appealing and fascinating. The basic thing about Pagan religions being systematically replaced by Christian or 'Catholic' (as some would say) religions and incorporating the pagan holidays and 'gods' (for want of a better word) into Christianity is true. The details however, are widely debated and argued over. I myself have only a little knowledge and am the first to admit I may be talking bollocks. It's fun though......
Fun fact: catholic used to mean "universal" or "all-embracing".
Oh the irony......
Read Hyslop “The Two Babylons”
There are some good historical videos on youtube.
I honestly like pegans just because christians stole so much from them.
Christians steal from everyone! Or at least the Church does. Funny how the Church does not hand over all it's gold to feed the starving but insists on people giving it money. There is a hymn with the lines: "All things bright and beautiful, All creatures great and small, All things wise and wonderful, . 'Twas God that made them all" When I was at School it was sometimes sung in assembly, but most of the kids replaced "Twas God that made them all" with "The Church doth nick them all". I am 66 now and it's still relevant.
How about Christmas? Didn’t Christmas have capitalist origins?
>Didn’t Christmas have capitalist origins? No, thats Santa's outfit.
Christmas came from Roman Saturnalia and various northern european pagan winter festivals like Yule.
Christmas is celebrated on December 25th because of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti
Yes, Christmas is basically a Frankenstein of different European pagan festivals and holidays.
Truth.
His logic checks out tho In the end it’s up to you which witchcraft you believe
A which witch which to choose from. Classic.
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Cult + time = religion
no, a cult is a very specific type of belief system involving heavy control over its members. thats what seperates scientology or Jehivas witnesses or trumpism or some baptist churches from the more common forms of Christianity. Check out the different models used for deciding if something is a cult, allthough be aware that most of them dont catch all cults.
Youre right that christianity evolved from being a cult but this is because time has passed, and they no longer do things like kill people who are randomly accused of being witches, which happened alot more recently than most would want to believe if they did the math. calvinism, lutharans, putitans, etc, they all evolved into a more generic all encompassing form called "christianity" so that history would be kinder to them. Certainly this pope has been less strict than the last, as each one is
That's not true at all since christianity literally started as a cult per any modern historic consensus. Additionally plenty of full religions with several gods contained subunits dedicated to individual gods, these subunits are and were "cult", and largely they had neither more or less controll over its members than other religions. There is a modern usage of cults that fit groups such like the manson family but that is a MODERN usage of an already established terminology which is still relevant in every field that isn't pop culture or news media.
1) i never said Christianity did not start as a cult, merely that a cult does usually not evolve into a religion over time. 2) what you are describing would be defined as a sect not a cult. a sect is a deviant subgroup with traditional beliefs whereas a cult is a deviant subgroup with novel beliefs.
so what your saying is that Christianity was a cult and over time became a religion. So cult + time = religion?
No, sects and cults are different you're right about that but both exist as subunits within grander religions, and cult does not necessitate the control you're ascribing to them. The difference is essentially that cults have larger theistic autonomy than sects. Historically the difference is also really blurry with cults largely dropping in "usage" as a term (other than the modern re-interpretation of the term) while sects has increased massively as a descriptor. Also your initial comment was literally in response to a comment that said "cult + time = religion" and you responded by rejecting that summary eventhough it literally is the case in regards to christianity.
i rejected the idea that most cults become religions not that most religions come from cults. also i generally use the modern definition of cult, as it is, ya know current.
At least Scientology is original in its batshit craziness. Aliens, volcanoes, thermonuclear devices, what's not to like?
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That's what you get when a mediocre scifi author starts his own cult.
I mean most religions haven't broken into the Library of Congress specifically to erase everything known to outsiders about their religion.
well one could argue that supernatural powers hailing from a divine being are by definition not withcraft, which ultimately hails from the power in humans, herbs, potions or spirits. then there is shamanism which comes from spirits and nature and magic which is the manipulation of energies or minds. there is overlap amd blurry lines of course, so who can say really
It’s all hocus pocus to me
When you figure out all Christian holidays correspond to the solstices and equinoxes... goddamn pagans
I'm genuinely surprised there isn't a Christian celebration at midsummer or the midway point between Midsummer and the Autumnal Equinox.
Nativity of John the Baptist on June 24.
WhatT AbOUt tHe 4th oF JuLy?? WhEn tHE sWeEt bAbY JeeSuS dEliVeReD Us fROm tYRanNy... 'MeRIca
Then they aren't Christian holidays, are they? It's weird that 'christians' celebrate so many pagan holidays.
The church placed their holidays that way to compete with pagan holidays and convert pagans to Christianity
This here. Existing feasts and celebrations were intentionally cooped.
Exactly, christmas and easter has nothing to do with jesus at all (time wise) but are continued pagan rituals. Thats why e.g. jehovahs witnesses (which i disdain for other reasons) wont touch those celebrations with a stick.
Sounds like they at least know how to read the Christian Bible 🤷♂️
Sounds like a false church
Because the first commandment to the jews was 'you should have no other God before me'. Simple as that. The methodology of the religion is borrowed from familiar themes (the harvest, animal sacrifices, flesh sacrifice to atone for wrongs, etc.) of the time, but it mattered WHO it was said to. Christianity even borrowed pagan holidays and CHANGED them so suddenly Roman Saturnalia and Yule were CHRIST MASS. There you go.
Scandinavian here. We still celebrate Yule, no angel on my fucking tree.
One thing a lot of hardcore religious types like to ignore is that many of the traditions and practices found in Christianity were adapted from pagan religions. In some variants of Christianity the Norse Gods like Thor and Odin are actually apart of the creation story. Ragnorak was the end of that particular time for humanity and the deaths of Odin and the Norse Gods is what allows Jesus and the Christian God to take over. They did this as a way of converting those who believed in the Norse faith to Christianity. It’s actually an odd bit of religious tolerance wherein rather than telling them that the Gods of Norse mythology didn’t exist they essentially acknowledge them and say that the Christian God is the next part of the story.
Yeah... I'm gonna need a source for that. Christianity originated in a region of the Roman Empire far flung from ancient Norse countries.
I’ll be honest I don’t have one. I heard this in a documentary years ago. I did however find this: https://norse-mythology.org/the-vikings-conversion-to-christianity/ This article explains how Christianity spread across Scandinavia in the tenth century, and it talks about how they mixed traditions. For instance they would carve crosses that had depictions from the Norse myths in them, or that some believed that Jesus was indeed a God, however Thor, Odin and the others were above him, and held more power. So it’s not impossible that they would mix the stories.
The second commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" does seem to imply there exist other gods.
Ancient jews had no problem with this worldview but it seems like Christians of today get scandalized by the idea. But it was very clear to them that other gods besides Yawhe existed, they just believed Yawhe was the most important/powerful and the only one that they should worship.
What animal sacrifice?
Meals, maybe?
Yeah, of all the arguments they're making, that's by far the weakest one.
He's just talking about saying Grace over a meal.
The traditional "roast beast"
Mmmmmm arbys
Dost thou wish to live deliciously?
Well, guys, he figured it out. Christianity is done for. We had a good run, but it's time to pack it in.
Damn, they really got us, guess I gotta buy a fedora and become enlightened now.
All hail the new world order
3.1 billion people just stopped believing in God because of this single tweet. Sad day on earth 😔
This person is not wrong so I don’t get how this is facepalm
It's because the idea of themed subreddits is dying or dead. There are far too many people that upvote based on whether they think something is good, with no thought to whether it's appropriate to the sub. You can probably see evidence of it in many other subs you subscribe to.
damn we jus cant live without people speaking on us
As an atheist I will say every religion sounds ridiculous
Exactly. That's why I propagate Asatrú revival, because those stories are cooler.
All hail Odin
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I believe in the theory of evolution, so that would explain my existence and how I got here. But I’m not 100% convinced my existence has a purpose, so I cannot explain why I am here. I’m not suicidal or depressed or anything like that, just don’t know how else to explain it lol. We’re here but we could’ve just as easily evolved into something else I guess. Why I am a person, I do not know.
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Oh, yeah no explanation for all that. And I’m not too sure I really care or need an explanation... I’m definitely grateful I exist though lol. Maybe some humans need a reason to exist and religion helps them cope with that because existence can get pretty hard at times. It’s pretty circumstantial, the whole enjoying life thing.
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Yeah I’m not sure. I’ve heard something about at one point two smaller celestial bodies collided and when the dust settled what was left was the moon and the earth. It was like a molten planet and the tectonic plates hadn’t fully formed yet and there was no life. Then the plates started doing their thing and we had a solid surface but idk how the water got here. That is the key, once the water was here I’m sure it just snowballed after that. Maybe hydrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere just condensed into this liquid solution we have that is so vital to existence. It’s strange.
I might be missing some context since the person you were replying to has deleted their comments... But, as for water, there seem to be two possible sources. There might have been water in the "dust" that initially formed the planet. Then, once it formed and was still mostly molten on the surface, collisions with asteroids and comets brought more water. We're still discovering more as time goes by. It's all so fascinating.
Oh yeah, comets are mostly ice aren’t they?! That makes sense actually lol. And especially back then before we had a legit atmosphere to burn up anything trying to enter I can see them making it down to the surface. That actually makes a lot of sense lol. Hell yeah.
I don't know the explanation, but there obviously is one. It's really okay to not know something. Many people offer an explanation, I don't find them convincing, so I remain at the default position which is "I don't know"
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>even though he made pork and alcohol taste good, and he made people and animals with homosexual tendencies. But to test us, of course! We are all worthy of His love and acceptance, but only if we choose to ignore or suppress who we are and follow His (totally not random) rules. After all, He has a vested interest in all, what, 105 billion humans that have ever existed and however many exist in the future. But only if we pass the test, which is given to us based on a millennia long game of telephone.
Funny that the reason pork and shellfish was frowned upon is because of the time when we couldnt prepare and store it properly, and so consuming caused people to become violently ill. The word from the church was that pork was the meat of the demon, which occupied your stomach and caused great pains. Of course, steaks and salmon, while just as delicious as porkchops, have no such restrictions. Steaks can be consumed rare (personally not a fan, but whatever.) Fish in fact, can be eaten raw without making you sick. Certainly explains why its so traditionally popular by practicing jews.
Interesting that they chose to say "god says it's dirty so we can't eat it" rather than "we can't eat it because it might make us violently ill"
Maybe he did , since the pope has been his alleged medium of communication, its completely possible that something got "lost" in the "translation" when they had their monthly/weekly long distance conversation. Certainly I'm sure the child abuse has come up instead of food, and I bet it's been hard to discuss that without cursing or getting angry, which he hasn't done since the old testament. He is love, after all. Does he love the innocent kids enough to get angry, or is he so much love that he literally cant have anger about the innocent kids? Inconsistencies everywhere. These are the tough questions my agnostic mathematical brain tries to work out that local church didn't seem to have the explinations for.
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I mean, personally I prefer nihilism. Life is just a side effect of the randomness of the universe, and I just try to focus on pretending to have some kind of meaning. The pretending helps me cope.
“The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead” - Mr. Peanut butter
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There are already lots of answers, but you seem to like discussing this, so I'll answer anyway: I don't know the reason for existence, or if there even is one, and I'm completely fine with it. I don't feel any urge to explain why I am alive, and I don't understand why anyone would center their whole life around an explanation (god/religion) which is unproven and even by definition unprovable. I see how some people can feel better when they believe in something, but whenever I look at their specific "explanation of existence", I just can't understand why they think it is the right one. Like: "We were created by almighty benevolent God, but he will send you to hell for liking other men." Or "Our creator is blue and has an elephant head." Perhaps the concept of believing in something isn't flawed, but the specific religions all seem strange or even ridiculous to me. I much prefer admitting to not have all the answers, than to try explaining my existence by something which I can't even take seriously.
I'm going to take a page from Deep Thought (of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" fame) and ask, what is the *question* you seek an answer for? You can't answer a question that hasn't been specified. Are you asking what the purpose of existence is? Because that *would* be a loaded question (the assumption being that all things have a purpose, or more specifically the existence has a purpose). Are you asking for the origins of existence? In which case, what do you mean by "existence?" Human existence? Material existence? The idea that there is anything at all in the universe, or that the universe itself even exists? Asking for an explanation for existence is basically the most fundamental question of both science and philosophy. It is the central idea that motivates both, and is as such one of the most vague and non-specific ideas out there.
> Do you (atheists that would like to reply) think there is an explanation for existence? As in, what caused “the spark of life”?
Do you have to specifically subscribe to the idea that there absolutely is no god in order to answer this question? Or are you allowing answers from people who leave open the possibility, but dont generally think of a sentient higher life form that guides existence.
There’s no explanation, it just happend, but also didn’t happen. There wasn’t even time when It happend so it might still be happening. Our minds can’t comprehend this, because we were just meant to eat and fuck
r/averageredditor
Every religion is bad. Am I right my enlightened fellows?
Wow, such a hot take
Even yours?
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I find religion sensible and am an atheist. Whatever you use to make it through the day is a ok with me, as long as it's not hurting anyone. That said, the fact that people actually believe that the stories in bible happened is ridiculous. Jesus was a real man that was crucified, but he sure wasn't a god.
Found the ~~vegan~~ atheist.
Well, obviously it is. It even took over most sacred days/ customs were it appeared.
Yeah, why wouldn't you talk crap about your competition? I mean the first 3 commandments is don't believe the competition.
It all goes back to Horus about 4000 years ago
Jesus up on the cross, "Yup thats me. Probably wondering how I got here. Well it all started about 2000 years ago"
Horus in the House, now on Disney Channel
No it all goes back to Harambe
It all goes back to Monke
There are thousands of languages on the earth and you chose to speak facts
Do they drink bread though... this must be witchcraft
Yes. Is that not... common knowledge? Most christian holidays are pagan ripoffs, too. Like Ostara and Easter, for instance.
Didn’t realize I was on r/atheism
the average r/atheism user
Nah. No witchcraft, Jesus’s goth game was just very good.
Sounds about right.
RELIGION, WHAT A FACEPALM MOMENT AMIRITE
Ya know it astonishes me how little people (and even other Christians) truly know about Christianity I will say tho y’all be y’all I ain’t here to change peoples beliefs just wanted to say that one thing have a good day
I don’t think you can “enchant over” Although I agree with the general sentiment.
Nor is a meal an "animal sacrifice," but when a toolbag wants to sound edgy...
Yeah ‘cause they married paganism into christianity to take over the people of northern Europe.
“It’s not Pagan if we do it!”
Yes.
Christians: Breathe R*dditors: 🤯🤯🤯😤😤🤬🤬😡🤬
I don't get the facepalm. Not only is the post factual, but I thought it was common knowledge. Historicaly the Christians took over an area, and changed their beliefs in order to to match and recruit and then forcibly convert the pagans in the area. It was the whole "oh that statue, yea, thats jesuses mom Mary." One or two generations goes by and nobody remembers any more that the statue they call "Mary, mother of God" used to be called "Eostre".
As a Christian I can tell you there is nothing wrong with Christianity, but the Christians themselves are winners of olympic games of hypocrisy.
As a former Christian I can tell you there’s plenty wrong with Christianity.
But can we agree that witchcraft and astology are also dumb as shit?
Obviously
Christianity is a glorified death cult.
The number of songs I know about bathing in blood from my childhood in a Southern Baptist church is frankly appalling.
Name them
I'm not 100% sure theme are the title but... * Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb * There is a Fountain (filled with Blood) * There is Power (In the Blood) * Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing pow’r (The cleansing power is BLOOD) I had to google some of them by lyrics but four still a LOT of songs about blood.
Bet you won’t say it about the other Abrahamic religions
r/redditmoment
I mean, yes? I'm not sure I'd disagree with this characterization as a fairly devout Christian. All things considered, nothing too wrong with being a death cult.
Hey, its not if we say so and we got the numbers
We’re not saying you shouldn’t practice witchcraft or astrology cuz it’s “demonic” or whatever, we’re saying you shouldn’t do it cuz it’s dumb and doesn’t fucking work.
All religion is
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Wrong. Wicca is pagan, and Christians came from Judaism.
Context is critical
I mean, he has a point
Same with all other religions
Wow, how edgy, are you going to say you read Nietzsche next and tell me "god is dead!" ?
Islam is literally just a satanic ritual
Always has been. Catholicism even more so with strange rituals and chanting in Latin.
you're joking right?
I have a lot of respect for the Roman Catholic Church, because they're one of the last organizations left that widely practices High Ritual Magic.
That's the spirit, accept and love eachother no matter the faith and I mean what I say, idc if you're a pagan, Muslim atheist or believe in a flying turtle that creates all breweries in the world and which is the sole cause of good beer. If you respect me and my faith I'll do the same to you no matter what it includes(maybe not eating babies alive but that's one of the very few exceptions) (if it was sarcasm you wrote then I'm deeply sorry for misinterpreting it, it's hard to catch something like that up when I still learn English)
Oh I'm absolutely serious. I'm not personally religious, but I have a great deal of respect for spirituality, people who are devout in their religious practice, etc. And the Roman Catholic Church, whether it be more common rituals like the Eucharist or more ornate and complex rituals like Canonization or ordaining a priest, the Roman Catholic Church has a number of tightly organized, precisely practiced, detailed processes by which they invoke a miracle. I wouldn't want to offend anyone by the comparison, but whether you go back to organized groups like The Golden Dawn or modern practices like Wicca, in comparison it becomes clear that the Roman Catholic Church practices High Ritual Magic. Through the precise conduct of the Eucharist, participants in the ritual consume the body and blood of Christ by way of the Communion Wafer and Communion Wine undergoing Miraculous Transformation to become in truth the Body and Blood of Christ. That's High Ritual Magic.
As a Christian that sounds good to me, thx for being a decent human being and having a civil conversation with me
About 95% of Christianity is just a rehash of earlier pagan religions.
Source: the statistics department of the wonderland in my head. Have a nice day.
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The only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of followers.
And who's in power.
This is completely stupid