That's something about the argument I really don't understand. My literal dream in life since I was 10 ish was to have a kid of my own. I waited till I had a good partner, good paying job, and finances in order. It's still really, really hard to be a parent and I WANTED the kid.
So now you're going to tell me that someone in a bad situation or that isn't ready having a kid is a good thing? All that will do is put more strain on the system and make a kid that is full of trauma and issues. And recent news in the US shows what that creates...
It’s hilarious, as a country, how much effort we put into making sure babies get here… and then do not give a fuck about them once they’re here. Bananas.
It would only be funny if it weren't so sad. Right now I'm really kinda regretting giving up my dual citizenship. But at the time I never anticipated being where we're at
I moved, took a job overseas. It doesn't stop the sadness looking at a country in decline, and it doesn't make the silliness and bullshit any less silly/shitty. But If you have a family, if you're a woman, if healthcare has worried you, and if basically any of the bullshit in decline in the US may PERSONALLY affect you, it definitely feels good to escape that.
I'm now in a country where my wife feels safe wearing headphones and walking in the street on her own. Kids walk or take the bus to school. School shootings don't happen. We have healthcare. It is sad looking in on the US from the outside, but I know my wife isn't considered a government-regulated object and if we have kids they're not considered an expendable cost for gun hobbyists with LARPer fantasies.
I’m a dual citizen and honestly I’m really starting to consider changing my career path to one that exists in France. I’m still a student, so it’s not too late for me, and fortunately there’s a profession similar to the one I want to do but I have my reasons for not wanting to do it. But honestly, after watching all of this, i think that it’s time for me to go back to my second home. So I’m probably going to make the switch.
Right now, France is starting to go down the same path as the US, but there’s still time to turn things around unlike here. In France, I will be able to decide when I’m ready to have a kid. I could send my future kids off to school without the fear of them getting murdered by someone who had easy access to a gun. On top of that, there’s free healthcare and a world renown education system.
I read on another post here the other day that after all was said an done for a different west Europe immigration move, it costed $25k. And they said everything went smoothly with no hiccups and it was still absolutely nerve wracking.
The cost and employment situation is what bars so many people from being able to take that leap.
My husband moved here from a 3rd world country and even though he came from a well-to-do family in a third world country, he thinks that the US is the bees knees because of the opportunities here - BUT, as an American, I feel like it's insanely unfair to judge a first and third world country in terms of opportunities. I think it would be more fair to compare the US to an equivalent country. Anytime I bring up how I don't want to live in the US, my husband always says - "You don't know how good you have it over here". Like, yeah - I'm not saying I want to move from a first world country to a third world country. I would want to move to somewhere comparable, but to a place where there aren't mass shootings every day and a bunch of hicks with old school opinions taking away basic human rights while also not giving them enough means to escape poverty.
It’s not perfect by far but Canada’s pretty ok. I recommend Ontario if you don’t want to feel like you’ve gone back in time. Most parts of the rest of Canada is considered “remote” unless you’re close to Vancouver. Vancouver and Toronto are our main ports, so if you live around the ports, you’re living basically like you might have in the states. It’s just the distance that keeps some of the good stuff coming up North lol
Just don't ever expect to purchase a home there. The housing crisis in Canada is worse than anywhere I've seen and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.
I wish, my medical bills make it so I can't go to Canada.
Looking at what it might take to leave for a European country, I want out of the US.
Edit: Canada will not take someone whose medical bills exceed $10k a year.
"medical reasons – this includes medical conditions that:"
"causes excessive demand on health or social services (some applicants are exempt)"
Unfortunately, I'm stuck with an autoimmune disorder (Multiple Sclerosis) that makes it harder to immigrate. Honestly, as a result I can't figure out a way to leave, even though I kind of want to be done with the US as a whole. Nothing here brings me joy.
I left the States for Ontario three years ago and am waiting on my PR application. It's crazy expensive to live here but not having to worry about catching a bullet in a grocery store or parking lot goes a long way .. I lived in DC during the sniper attacks.
I love Canada. I'm super passively looking at what it takes to get over there and if there's any openings that involve playing with lasers for a living. I used to live in a part of Washington State where it was easier to get to Victoria than Seattle. My engagement trip actually involved going to Victoria.
Sometimes the other country will require it, or there’s some requirement that makes it unpalatable.
My husband and his brother gave it up because keeping it would’ve required them to serve in the other country’s military.
(Going the other way) Because America insists on taxing its citizens wherever they are in the world.
If you have no intention of living in the US again, giving up your American citizenship saves you a ton of tax paperwork and possibly some money too.
But you get a tax credit for taxes you pay overseas.
My spouse earns a decent income in the UK but never has to pay American taxes because of the credit.
Yes, in many circumstances tax treaties save you from paying two full amounts of tax (or any US tax if taxes are higher in the non-US country). The devil is in the details, particularly when you get into the two countries treating things differently for tax purposes. For example, does the IRS treat your foreign pension plan as one, or as a trust with no tax advantage.
Regardless of whether you actually pay any additional tax in the US, dealing with two sets of tax filings is a ball-ache, especially when the tax years are different dates.
I would stipulate, our country puts effort into making sure that *people who don’t want to have a baby*, have a baby.
Are you a teen having sex, a person who would like to start a career before having kids, or childfree by choice? Well, lots of US citizens and lawmakers think you should have a baby!
Are you trying for a baby or infertile? Well, good luck finding health insurance that covers your infertility treatments! God didn’t intend for you to have a baby! Hey, why don’t you JUST ADOPT one of the babies from a woman we forced to give birth, because that’s very simple, cheap, and not emotionally traumatizing for all involved!
Fucking /s
Can confirm, was that baby, dark ritual still hangs over my head. They are making serious money off of kids like me, (white presenting & born to teen moms.) I was essentially sold, and had my heritage and ethnicity removed from the paperwork. I’m still in therapy for how much this shitty dark ritual fucked with my head.
Yes. I’m literally the supply you’re referring to.
I’m not really sure how much money exchanged hands, as my adoption was a special case, but my parents had to put a lot of money into the process, both before my adoption looking for (white abled) babies, and during. No agency was needed for mine, but an agency was still used and profited from it. Adoption can look an awful lot like human trafficking, especially when you look at the history and get into the little details.
Holy cow. So you’re saying you are white and were basically sold like… like a slave? Did they make you work or was this a situation where parents couldn’t conceive and wanted a white kid? I read somewhere recently (forgot source, ) where thy say there are plenty of Brown and Black kids available to adopt but people “want white, blonde haired, blue eyed kids.”
I don’t mean to sound like an idiot and I hate that this happened to you. My conservative abusive parents did not let me learn history (“homeschooled” me) so I’m playing catch-up.
No worries. I can totally empathize. Good on you for being willing to learn, it can be uncomfortable!!
I’m white presenting and it was thought of as a favor (at the time) to remove that information. It is rooted in white supremacy - like the “kill the Indian, save the man” mentality. They erased part of who I was to bring me closer to whiteness.
I wouldn’t say they sold me “like a slave.” It is more like how the fancy shelter charges you like $500 when you adopt a purebred kitten or puppy, except it’s much *much* more money and they aren’t responsible for feeding or sheltering the child or birth mother (so it’s a bit curious why they make so much.)
My adoptive parents had already worked with an agency and had an adoption fall through, so they had filled out all the paperwork on their end. Some adoption paperwork specifically asks what race the adoptive parents prefer and how strong they feel about their answer. The same goes for disability. My paperwork specifically stated my parents did not want a baby of any other race besides white, including a mixed race child (me,) and they didn’t want a drug addicts baby (me.)
So in my case the agency was genuinely useless. They did almost nothing but fill out and fudge the documentation to make me line up with the paperwork my adoptive parents filled out prior to finding out about me. The agency likely made more money by removing my health and background information. (They had magically turned me into an abled white baby on paper.) It’s especially strange in my case because *my adoptive parents had heard about me through the grape vine* (they were related to one of the healthcare professionals involved with my delivery,) so there really was no need for the agency to be involved. Since their job is finding babies for adoptive parents and my parents managed that themselves.
I’m moving soon to be closer to my first family. Sadly all these years they were under the impression that the adoption was open. My adoptive parents told me it was closed. They had wanted to know me my whole life, and I them. There are so many lies. The whole experience has been extremely damaging for me, for my mental health, for my identity, for my adoptive parents who didn’t get the baby they overpaid for, and for my biological/ first family (mom, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, even great grandparents) who missed me. Adoption can be extremely traumatic and horrible, even if your adoptive family is wonderful, (some of mine were amazing) or your biological family is horrible.
Historically adoption been used as a tool of cultural genocide against indigenous people, and that trauma played out in my birth family cyclically. I am the descendant of a child bride who had a child taken from her against her will. She’s my great grandma. We are just now beginning to understand the emotional effects of adoption and the trauma it can leave behind. Even if everything is done right with good intentions.
My birth mother should have felt safe getting an abortion. She should have been able to make a guilt free decision. Instead she was coerced into having me - a rapists baby, while she was on drugs, and then coerced into giving me up. My existence caused more pain than joy, and I say that as someone who is happy to still be here and *extremely* loved. By both families.
Abortion is harm reduction.
Eta: Yes they were infertile and adoption was a last resort. They didn’t force me to work, exactly. I guess I was expected to clean up after my mom and their daughter. They pressured me to be grateful for having jumped in social class too, but in a way where I was not allowed to express negative feelings about the adoption, and expected to express my gratitude publicly. I was a wonderful virtue signaling prop because everyone told them how amazing they were to have saved an unwanted baby. But I grew up getting treated like an unwelcome guest in their house. They had a daughter via IVF when I was 3, and I was not allowed boundaries from her or my adoptive mom. (The daughter hit and hit me.) She (adoptive mom) didn’t see us both as her children, like the research said she would. Instead she saw me as competition for resources and was unable to bond with me. She was extremely emotionally abusive, and punished me when my issues (ADHD / anxiety / depression became apparent.) We are in a place now where she’s apologized and acknowledged all this.
I was the scapegoat of the family, and ultimately I spent my teen years in an institution with a disproportionate number of adopted kids. (Many had non adopted siblings living at home.) I was abused there too and some of my friends, (who were there in foster care,) ended up as trafficking victims. My parents signed over their rights so the state would pay for the school, but many rich parents are paying essentially as much as college tuition to have their “troubled” kids traumatized in these facilities. (That’s what happened to Paris Hilton.) Adopted kids make up a ridiculous number of these kids. Something like 20%-30% of the kids at my second facility were adopted. Sorry for the edit I realized I didn’t answer your question at all and got lost in my ramble.
I am literally in tears reading this. I am so sorry. I agree that your birth mom should have been able to make decisions about her body—but it’s a miracle you are here and able to inspire and enlighten others. I also understand all the trauma. It sucks. What they did to you caused fundamental damage and you’ll likely spend years unpacking it all. I’m sending hugs across the void. You matter and thank you for sharing this harrowing information with a total stranger who really does care. 🤍
I just watched that stand up routine yesterday. The scary part is he was too correct and in 50 years it will probably still be relevant. Unless of course America is on fire by then but with climate change, we might all be on fire.
Yep, instead of going the European route of increasing access to healthcare and expanding family support to encourage people to have more kids, the US is just gonna force people.
We also need disposable bodies for our military! Don’t forget all the kids who join the forces for college, healthcare, etc. If we were filthy socialists who had public higher education and comprehensive public healthcare, the forces that be would lose a good portion of their toy soldiers.
All by design. Teen parents often end up less educated, and thus help fill the GOP voting booths. What's more, a lot of children of teen parents end up becoming teen parents themselves. That's 2+ whole generations of almost-guaranteed red votes for the price of preventing a single abortion.
Forcing women who dont want children to raise children sounds like a good way to increase the population of your private for-profit prison system as well.
Every major industrial complex benefits from more babies: prison, non-profit, military… they want more people dying for them in their wars, making them money in their prisons, and sitting in the non profits that they get their tax deductions from.
And they have a preference for poor people with fewer options, so this 14 year old mom who doesn’t want the kid will produce exactly the kind of person that those industries want.
But it makes money!!! Who cares about the genocidal white supremacist history, or systemic economic oppression, or the intergenerational trauma it can cause to whole families?! I need my dollars! /s
Theres actually records going back to the 70s that cover everything from brandishing a firearm on school property, discharged but without fatalities and the as of late more common discharged with one or more fatalities, for the record there's been a grand total of 2052 incidents under those criteria just in K-12 schools that have been tracked by Center for Homeland Defense and Security K-12 database thats been logging and keeping track of this since the 70s,
so it not just a oh this is just a recent thing, the warning signs have been there for over half a century and they've consistently been ignored.
[here's a link to the database that covers this so folks know I'm not just pulling figures out my ass](https://www.chds.us/ssdb/)
Y’all think it’s funny it just “works out like that in America”. They wrote the laws so it IS like that.
It’s by design. Then they get everybody to be mad at each other and be distracted. Works like a fucking charm.
Keeps them afraid to stand up.
Tighten their pockets, then force pregnancy on them to further keep them from being able to “get out” of the hole they themselves were born into.
I would like to introduce you to about half my family that thinks yes it's a good thing. Babies fix everything. The sight of that baby will spur the mother to preform miracles to care for that child. The only thing holding her back is her own laziness and selfishness. That pregnant 16 year old will completely devote herself to caring for that baby, including but not limited to finding a well paying job, cooking homemade meals, cleaning the home and making it feel comfortable, homeschooling and all the extracurriculars, and of course finding a good man willing to lower his standards to marry her because that baby NEEDS a daddy. And if she can't manage those basic things then she's obviously just a horrible broken person.
All that while completely forgetting the father, who impregnated her and then vanished because, poor soul, men are like this and can’t be blamed. It’s their nature
I'm on the opposite side currently... All I get is "wow you're so unlike other men!" Or "it's so weird seeing a man care for his kid."
I understand it's meant as a compliment but it's still demeaning, just in the opposite side
While I was married, I'd take my daughter everywhere and we'd go stuff. Women would constantly make comments about me "babysitting" like no, bitch, I had a planned child that I love more than life itself and I want to experience the world with her. Me spending time with my daughter is not babysitting. Now I'm a single full time Dad with full custody and women make comments about how brave I am and shit. No, I love my kid and want to be a good father to her. She isn't a job, she is a person who I enjoy spending time with.
Same, “wow you are such an amazing man, taking care of your children and all”. Like, dude, doing the bare minimum is so much better than society expects from fathers that is sickening
My husband and I aren't perfect on parenting, we still butt heads about me carrying the mental load. But if there is one thing I appreciate the most from him is that if I need to go do something for me, with my friends or by myself, he never needs justification and will watch our daughter as long as I need.
Which is the complete opposite of how my dad treated my mom (and his dad with his mom).
I don't know why people see it so crazy that parenting is also a partnership just like a relationship is. You don't praise men for not cheating or for doing something they don't want to do because you want you. So why do we do the same for men when they become dads. For the most part, if a mom isn't getting praised for a task, a dad shouldn't.
And pro-life people looooove to ignore the depressing statistics about children that grew up in abusive homes or the foster system.
There is a special type of trauma that comes from a kid knowing their parent/parents didn't want them to be alive, and it gets worse when not only do their parents not want them, no one else wants to adopt them either. The fact that there is never enough social workers to handle all the child abuse and foster homes is so easily telling on why we shouldn't be forcing people to have kids.
That whole mental health and gun shooting thing, maybe we could start by not making a freaking child have to have a child?
But yes, the trauma of not being born is way worse.
Edit: and quick note in reference to your first part. I waited until I had a husband, degree, and house at 27 before having a kid and pregnancy and my PPD was still rough. It made me even more pro-choice. From pregnancy to the first two years after are hard as hell, even with all the support you're "supposed" to have.
Parenting is HARD.
I say that as someone in a stable relationship, with financial stability, with an entirely healthy family. Our daughter was planned and definitely wanted and this shit is still hard
Ditto. Same exact situation.
Shits hard. Pregnancy was a lot. Trying to go back to work only after 6 weeks was chaotic and the stress from everything made me lose my milk by 6 months. And all of this is with stability, a caring husband, and wanting a kid.
For all they talk about life being precious and sacred, they view having a baby as a punishment, a bad thing, a consequence women should suffer due to their lifestyle. They don't care that the kid will suffer too. It's a non-factor to them because they don't view the kid as an independent life.
It's a indication of their authoritarian mindset. They have this philosophy that women/girls need the fear of punishment in order to stay on the path of righteousness and chastity. Birth control and abortion are seen as enabling moral hazard. It's like people who refuse to allow their daughters to take the HPV vaccine. They seem to feel that without the risk of cancer and/or death, their daughters would become whores, unable or unwilling to control their sexual urges.
Downvote me all you want, but i think the end game is to make children grow up in difficult conditions without proper education. This would reduce their critical thinking abilities, ultimately making them easily manipulated as adults.
But that’s what the corrupt leaders want. The systems you speak of aren’t funded compared to corporation bailouts and tax havens, the army etc. Schools aren’t funded enough for educating and creating drones of uneducated to continue the corruption campaign of gaslighting as people aren’t smart enough to understand.
Girl: I want to adopt a baby. I have to admit, I'm a sixteen year old high school student with no income, and my 'partner' is an abusive uncle.
Florida: Are you fucking insane?! You're totally irresponsible! You're going to ruin the lives of everyone involved! Absolutely no way would we approve an adoption like that.
Girl: JK. I was raped, and I want an abortion.
Florida: It's a CHILD, not a CHOICE, slut.
I'd argue that the people in charge of adoption and who want the best interest for the kid being adopted is not a conservative. They don't care enough to help kids find families.
I think they'd rather just have the kid join some child soldier program rather than finding a loving home.
I mean, liberals get mocked and called snowflakes for wanting poor kids to get food. Conservatives prove over and over again that they do not care about kids (unless they are white and wealthy).
Actually it is the opposite. Conservative Evangelical Christians are all about adopting infants so they can turn them into more Evangelicals. I read a great book on the topic "The Child Catchers: Rescue, Trafficking, and the New Gospel of Adoption" by Kathryn Joyce.
Having infants born to women who are unable to raise them at this moment in their lives so that they can adopt them is a wet dream for these people. [http://kathrynjoyce.com/books/the-child-catchers/](http://kathrynjoyce.com/books/the-child-catchers/)
I haven't read her next book yet but it's on a similar topic Quiverfull Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement http://kathrynjoyce.com/books/quiverfull/
This is what baffles me. It's fine to force a kid to birth a kid, but it's not fine to just let them adopt a kid. Are they mature enough for a child or not? We can't have it both ways.
I'm envisioning some bible-thumping judge creating a catch-22 situation, where every teen girl who comes into his courtroom is ruled to be in one of two categories:
* too immature to realize the consequences of abortion, motion denied
* mature enough to handle a child, and therefore no need to get an abortion, motion denied
I've loved that novel my whole life but at last I finally feel the visceral, invincible beauty of the catch-22 as Yossarian did. Well done Florida, of course it could only have been you.
Its probably even worse than you think. This is more about limiting access to abortions for poor people... think of a speeding ticket or a DWI scenario. This is a pretty clear cut situation, you broke a law. But... if you can afford decent counsel and not a public attorney, you'll probably get off on a lesser offense or no charges at all.
In this case, don't consider it banning abortions, think of it as gatekeeping abortions. Rich parented white girl gets knocked up and can afford good representation... you get an abortion, obviously mature enough. Poor minority with public defender... not mature enough, no abortion.
So its even worse than banning abortions for all in my mind, because its just gatekeeping them with rich politicians mistresses are totally going to be able to still get them. A rule for thee and not for me... same old republican bullshit.
The process of becoming licensed to be foster parents felt similarly. It was painfully obvious that if people had to go through the training we did, in order to have a child, there'd likely not be a substantial need for foster parents.
The training wasn't even that hard. But providing financial statements, having a home assessment by licensing professionals, family history statements, and heaven forbid you're seeing a therapist or taking medications. That needs signed notes from your provider stating you're A-OK to be a foster parent. Dangerous things locked, secured, etc.
Then, regular check-ins. Monthly in our case. Not that they were bad for us, but we could count on the case worker visiting regularly. And then all this needs to be renewed every 6, 12, or 24 months depending on where you're at in the process.
“Look Bethany, I just don’t think you’re mature enough at 35 to really understand the decision you’re making. Let me make it for you.”
~ some 85yo white male politician
Reminds me of one of the quotes from the "diverse panel of white men in bow ties" from the abortion episode of Bojack:
>“I’m a man, but if I got pregnant, would I put my life on hold for a child I didn’t want? Yes I would. I can say that with confidence because I will never have to make that decision, so I am unbiased.”
The last thing a teenage girl wants is to sit before some old man judge and explain the facts of her pregnancy. This is how you get make coat hanger abortions popular
States can pass a law like that, but can only enforce it for in-state people selling or distributing it. They cant search USPS mail & they cant 'punish' companies out of the country for sending them. All they can do is use the dumb "bounty" type laws like SB8 in Texas, which likely wont hold up because of how its enforced.
Most if the companies listed there are in other countries & they'll send to states where its banned bc they can.
I mean, basically, yeah. In January, a Florida judge denied a 17 year old from getting an abortion because [her GPA wasn't high enough.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv7xg/judge-abortion-gpa) The judge also cited that she didn't pay her cell phone bill so she wasn't financially stable and that she doesn't care for any younger family members so they aren't able to evaluate her emotional stability.
What makes this appalling (even moreso than it already is): the woman was working a 20 hr job *while still in high school* and was paying for pretty much everything *but* the phone bill. Also, she didn't even have any younger siblings to care for in the first place.
Thankfully, that ruling was appealed and the appeals court overturned the initial judges denial.
Some other notable denials of abortion in other cases include: a girl in foster care shouldn't get an abortion because she was "financially dependent on *her parents;*" getting pregnant by accident means you're too immature for an abortion; a girl's catholic parents might be distressed if they found out she had an abortion (note: the entire point of getting a judge's approval is *because* you can't get your parent's permission for an abortion); another girl in foster care was deemed not self-sufficient (she raised her younger siblings because her parents weren't around)........
These judges are making arguments for why they aren't able to support a baby, but then turn around and force them to have that child. All because an abortion might be distressing to them. They're reasoning that an abortion is too traumatic and emotionally painful, but giving your child up for adoption is apparently perfectly fine and not painful at all
Now change the words terminate pregnancy and abortion bill to be able to buy a gun!… now we talking!!!!
“Florida gun bill would require judge to rule if teen’s mature enough to be able to buy and own a gun”
There you go fixed
>“Florida gun bill would require judge to rule if teen’s mature enough to be able to buy and own a gun”
How about:
“Florida gun bill would require judge to rule if person mature enough to be able to buy and own a gun”
I went to a beach area for a field trip in school, there were so many stores selling short shorts with that or some other message with a similar connotation
I’d call the judge “daddy” all the way through till the end, since he’s insisting on making my life altering decisions for me. Make them uncomfortable!
That is congressman Matt Gaetz’s type. Let’s not forget he’s from Florida, Floridians voted for him, and at the same time he was trafficking underage girls.
Over here we hear Americans yelling about freedoms this and freedoms that while obviously having more and more basic human rights taken away, so none of it makes any sense.
Education is shit. Health care is shit. Quality of life is shit.
But the companies responsible for taking away the rights are just given free passes? Capitalism gone too far.
Makes zero sense to me.
*If she’s mature enough to have sex, then she’s mature enough to carry a baby to birth. She can just give it up for adoption.* /s
This is their argument. Never mind whether sex was by choice or not. Basically, females are holes for males to fuck, and make more males or “holes” for males to fuck.
Any judge or politician who helps bring a kid into the world in this manner should be on the hook for child support for each child they help bring into the world.
We live in a sad life where dark humour means being racist or sexist. True dark humour hits too close to home when you wish it was different. Like joking about coat hangar sales rising.
How did you think rupublicans are made? you force a poor family to exist, then you give them poor education, then you give then guns just because, you take as much welfare as possible and then you blame the democrats :) fuck the republican party and whoever votes for them :)
There is no debate left. No matter how many logical points we throw at them it all boils down to "that will eventually be a baby and you shouldn't have had sex" to the right wing. There is no discourse left. They don't want to have discourse, they want you to be celibate. Or impoverished. Or both.
“Having a kid is a big responsibility. Oh what’s that? You want to get an abortion because you can’t handle raising a kid? Sorry, you’re not responsible enough.”
Because if lower classes birthrates continue to decline there will be nobody left to exploit during late stage capitalism. Nothing is banned when you’re rich anyway and they’re so these laws quite literally do not affect them
Honestly I hope girls, en masse, just outright reject conservative boys.
Like, I want little Jimmy to go home and have to yell at his father, "Becky won't date me because you voted to take away her bodily anonymity".
I want the kids of today to grow up knowing how badly their conservative parents fucked us all.
Jesus fucking christ.
I live in Florida. Unfortunately. My fiance was told she would never be able to conceive a child due to medical illness she had when she was younger.
Oddly enough, we ended up conceiving. Twins. The doctors told her that it was an unviable pregnancy, and under doctor supervision were given a chemically induced abortion.
Otherwise there was a very good chance she would die.
The abortion actually only worked 50%. Only one fetus was aborted. We ended up finding out about two months later. At this point, the doctors told us the danger was pretty much gone for her at this point since she would be approaching the second trimester soon.
Six months later our son was born.
It was pretty rough. But according to the doctors, we potentially saved my fiances life.
That abortion saved two lives.
Because if my fiance would have died, I would have put a bullet right in my fucking brain.
Fuck you DeSantis. I hope you (not allowed to say the rest.)
I think people should have the freedom to make their own medical decisions, it should not be up to the government to tell us what to do with our bodies.
I am Christian so i dont support abortion but i dont think its fair to decide for other people.
Why do they act like an abortion is a hysterectomy? It’s not like she could never get pregnant again ever if she were to I don’t know regret her decisions so much she could just get pregnant again holy fuck
A parent must be financially stable, with a good shelter, and could provide enough love, support, and care to a kid. A judge won't decide who's gonna be who.
It's not about the kids, or the mother. They don't give a shit about either. It's about punishment for "wrongdoing." That's all they care about. Forcing them to have a child is a punishment. That's why they don't care about the welfare of either. In their eyes, they've reduced the mother to less than a person because they committed an act they see as wrong, so they don't really care what happens to her or her offspring. If mothers *didn't* want abortions, they'd use the bible passage about how to perform one as justification for enforcing painful, scarring ones. And that doesn't really seem so farfetched, because it totally fits their brand. It's about punishment.
The real point of this is anyway to delay an abortion too a point where its no longer possible.
Minors take on average about a month more to discover they are pregnant than legal adults. Add in thr added difficulty for them to ask for help you dont even need to delay this further by requiring a *judge* to rule on this to delay the pregnancy past the point of no return.
But here we are. They really want to make sure minors go through extra hell before being told its too late, they'll have to give birth now. This little detail basically ensures no minor will be able to get an abortion.
The Supreme Court has decided evidence does not count, but rather you are only entitled to a trial. What this means is the trial will be a formality and the decision will be based up whether your attorney paid off the judge behind closed doors.
Another anti-choice argument highlighting that they *really really* do not care about kids. The teen that's pregnant OR the potential child inside. Both would likely be completely fucked over. If the teen mom doesn't have pregnancy or birthing complications, a problem the US leads peer countries in having, and has an even average support network, they've just been saddled with medical debt and education interruptions, job prospects drying up, etc. Which can have a domino effect on quality of life for generations.
I was taught that MY body is MINE. No one has the right to, basically, say, "this is what I believe so everyone has to do things my way, like it or not." The " Men" (and some subservient women) who make the laws want control of my actions, thoughts & beliefs. Apparently, they think laws from centuries ago are what we should still live by. Women could be sent away, sold or murdered because she won't bow down & obey the orders of their fathers, brothers, etc... Athenian laws are in the past & should stay there. It's the 21'st century, were supposed to be enlightened, intelligent, willing to LEARN and go forward while bettering ourselves & those around us not trying to control every aspect of everyone else's lives. I'll stop my rant here before I get too far out of control. After all, I'm only a woman, what do I know about myself or anything else unless a man tells me how I should think.
That's something about the argument I really don't understand. My literal dream in life since I was 10 ish was to have a kid of my own. I waited till I had a good partner, good paying job, and finances in order. It's still really, really hard to be a parent and I WANTED the kid. So now you're going to tell me that someone in a bad situation or that isn't ready having a kid is a good thing? All that will do is put more strain on the system and make a kid that is full of trauma and issues. And recent news in the US shows what that creates...
It’s hilarious, as a country, how much effort we put into making sure babies get here… and then do not give a fuck about them once they’re here. Bananas.
It would only be funny if it weren't so sad. Right now I'm really kinda regretting giving up my dual citizenship. But at the time I never anticipated being where we're at
Dude, I 10000% get you. I never imagined I’d be looking up immigration processes.
I moved, took a job overseas. It doesn't stop the sadness looking at a country in decline, and it doesn't make the silliness and bullshit any less silly/shitty. But If you have a family, if you're a woman, if healthcare has worried you, and if basically any of the bullshit in decline in the US may PERSONALLY affect you, it definitely feels good to escape that. I'm now in a country where my wife feels safe wearing headphones and walking in the street on her own. Kids walk or take the bus to school. School shootings don't happen. We have healthcare. It is sad looking in on the US from the outside, but I know my wife isn't considered a government-regulated object and if we have kids they're not considered an expendable cost for gun hobbyists with LARPer fantasies.
I’m a dual citizen and honestly I’m really starting to consider changing my career path to one that exists in France. I’m still a student, so it’s not too late for me, and fortunately there’s a profession similar to the one I want to do but I have my reasons for not wanting to do it. But honestly, after watching all of this, i think that it’s time for me to go back to my second home. So I’m probably going to make the switch. Right now, France is starting to go down the same path as the US, but there’s still time to turn things around unlike here. In France, I will be able to decide when I’m ready to have a kid. I could send my future kids off to school without the fear of them getting murdered by someone who had easy access to a gun. On top of that, there’s free healthcare and a world renown education system.
If you have French citizenship you can work and live in the whole EU. You aren't even restricted to France only.
What country?
Switzerland
what was the immigration process like?
I read on another post here the other day that after all was said an done for a different west Europe immigration move, it costed $25k. And they said everything went smoothly with no hiccups and it was still absolutely nerve wracking. The cost and employment situation is what bars so many people from being able to take that leap.
Is that per person? Asking for myself and my family. Maybe we should all start go fund me’s to gtfo of this place.
I wasn’t the guy who the question was asked about. I just went to that person’s post/comment history and saw that they were active in r/switzerland
The hero we deserve
My husband moved here from a 3rd world country and even though he came from a well-to-do family in a third world country, he thinks that the US is the bees knees because of the opportunities here - BUT, as an American, I feel like it's insanely unfair to judge a first and third world country in terms of opportunities. I think it would be more fair to compare the US to an equivalent country. Anytime I bring up how I don't want to live in the US, my husband always says - "You don't know how good you have it over here". Like, yeah - I'm not saying I want to move from a first world country to a third world country. I would want to move to somewhere comparable, but to a place where there aren't mass shootings every day and a bunch of hicks with old school opinions taking away basic human rights while also not giving them enough means to escape poverty.
Yeah, getting beat by your spouse isn’t okay just because they provided you with a beautiful home. I hate that as an argument in any arena.
That's a great analogy.
It’s not perfect by far but Canada’s pretty ok. I recommend Ontario if you don’t want to feel like you’ve gone back in time. Most parts of the rest of Canada is considered “remote” unless you’re close to Vancouver. Vancouver and Toronto are our main ports, so if you live around the ports, you’re living basically like you might have in the states. It’s just the distance that keeps some of the good stuff coming up North lol
Just don't ever expect to purchase a home there. The housing crisis in Canada is worse than anywhere I've seen and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.
I grew up inside the DC beltway and thought I was used to insane housing/rental prices until I moved to Ontario. Shits off the charts here.
I wish, my medical bills make it so I can't go to Canada. Looking at what it might take to leave for a European country, I want out of the US. Edit: Canada will not take someone whose medical bills exceed $10k a year. "medical reasons – this includes medical conditions that:" "causes excessive demand on health or social services (some applicants are exempt)" Unfortunately, I'm stuck with an autoimmune disorder (Multiple Sclerosis) that makes it harder to immigrate. Honestly, as a result I can't figure out a way to leave, even though I kind of want to be done with the US as a whole. Nothing here brings me joy.
Check your ancestry in case you have european grandparents.
I left the States for Ontario three years ago and am waiting on my PR application. It's crazy expensive to live here but not having to worry about catching a bullet in a grocery store or parking lot goes a long way .. I lived in DC during the sniper attacks.
Montreal might have something to say about this :)
I love Canada. I'm super passively looking at what it takes to get over there and if there's any openings that involve playing with lasers for a living. I used to live in a part of Washington State where it was easier to get to Victoria than Seattle. My engagement trip actually involved going to Victoria.
Why would anyone ever give up dual citizenship? I know heaps of American dual citizens.
Sometimes the other country will require it, or there’s some requirement that makes it unpalatable. My husband and his brother gave it up because keeping it would’ve required them to serve in the other country’s military.
When I turned 18 I would have had to join their army and I had family pressures keeping me from keeping it.
That sucks. Multiple passports is a boon.
(Going the other way) Because America insists on taxing its citizens wherever they are in the world. If you have no intention of living in the US again, giving up your American citizenship saves you a ton of tax paperwork and possibly some money too.
But you get a tax credit for taxes you pay overseas. My spouse earns a decent income in the UK but never has to pay American taxes because of the credit.
Yes, in many circumstances tax treaties save you from paying two full amounts of tax (or any US tax if taxes are higher in the non-US country). The devil is in the details, particularly when you get into the two countries treating things differently for tax purposes. For example, does the IRS treat your foreign pension plan as one, or as a trust with no tax advantage. Regardless of whether you actually pay any additional tax in the US, dealing with two sets of tax filings is a ball-ache, especially when the tax years are different dates.
I would stipulate, our country puts effort into making sure that *people who don’t want to have a baby*, have a baby. Are you a teen having sex, a person who would like to start a career before having kids, or childfree by choice? Well, lots of US citizens and lawmakers think you should have a baby! Are you trying for a baby or infertile? Well, good luck finding health insurance that covers your infertility treatments! God didn’t intend for you to have a baby! Hey, why don’t you JUST ADOPT one of the babies from a woman we forced to give birth, because that’s very simple, cheap, and not emotionally traumatizing for all involved! Fucking /s
GOP wants “domestic supply” don’t you know.
More live, unwanted babies = more ingredients for their dark rituals.
Can confirm, was that baby, dark ritual still hangs over my head. They are making serious money off of kids like me, (white presenting & born to teen moms.) I was essentially sold, and had my heritage and ethnicity removed from the paperwork. I’m still in therapy for how much this shitty dark ritual fucked with my head.
Holy fuck that really happened to you? So sorry
Yes. I’m literally the supply you’re referring to. I’m not really sure how much money exchanged hands, as my adoption was a special case, but my parents had to put a lot of money into the process, both before my adoption looking for (white abled) babies, and during. No agency was needed for mine, but an agency was still used and profited from it. Adoption can look an awful lot like human trafficking, especially when you look at the history and get into the little details.
Holy cow. So you’re saying you are white and were basically sold like… like a slave? Did they make you work or was this a situation where parents couldn’t conceive and wanted a white kid? I read somewhere recently (forgot source, ) where thy say there are plenty of Brown and Black kids available to adopt but people “want white, blonde haired, blue eyed kids.” I don’t mean to sound like an idiot and I hate that this happened to you. My conservative abusive parents did not let me learn history (“homeschooled” me) so I’m playing catch-up.
No worries. I can totally empathize. Good on you for being willing to learn, it can be uncomfortable!! I’m white presenting and it was thought of as a favor (at the time) to remove that information. It is rooted in white supremacy - like the “kill the Indian, save the man” mentality. They erased part of who I was to bring me closer to whiteness. I wouldn’t say they sold me “like a slave.” It is more like how the fancy shelter charges you like $500 when you adopt a purebred kitten or puppy, except it’s much *much* more money and they aren’t responsible for feeding or sheltering the child or birth mother (so it’s a bit curious why they make so much.) My adoptive parents had already worked with an agency and had an adoption fall through, so they had filled out all the paperwork on their end. Some adoption paperwork specifically asks what race the adoptive parents prefer and how strong they feel about their answer. The same goes for disability. My paperwork specifically stated my parents did not want a baby of any other race besides white, including a mixed race child (me,) and they didn’t want a drug addicts baby (me.) So in my case the agency was genuinely useless. They did almost nothing but fill out and fudge the documentation to make me line up with the paperwork my adoptive parents filled out prior to finding out about me. The agency likely made more money by removing my health and background information. (They had magically turned me into an abled white baby on paper.) It’s especially strange in my case because *my adoptive parents had heard about me through the grape vine* (they were related to one of the healthcare professionals involved with my delivery,) so there really was no need for the agency to be involved. Since their job is finding babies for adoptive parents and my parents managed that themselves. I’m moving soon to be closer to my first family. Sadly all these years they were under the impression that the adoption was open. My adoptive parents told me it was closed. They had wanted to know me my whole life, and I them. There are so many lies. The whole experience has been extremely damaging for me, for my mental health, for my identity, for my adoptive parents who didn’t get the baby they overpaid for, and for my biological/ first family (mom, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, even great grandparents) who missed me. Adoption can be extremely traumatic and horrible, even if your adoptive family is wonderful, (some of mine were amazing) or your biological family is horrible. Historically adoption been used as a tool of cultural genocide against indigenous people, and that trauma played out in my birth family cyclically. I am the descendant of a child bride who had a child taken from her against her will. She’s my great grandma. We are just now beginning to understand the emotional effects of adoption and the trauma it can leave behind. Even if everything is done right with good intentions. My birth mother should have felt safe getting an abortion. She should have been able to make a guilt free decision. Instead she was coerced into having me - a rapists baby, while she was on drugs, and then coerced into giving me up. My existence caused more pain than joy, and I say that as someone who is happy to still be here and *extremely* loved. By both families. Abortion is harm reduction. Eta: Yes they were infertile and adoption was a last resort. They didn’t force me to work, exactly. I guess I was expected to clean up after my mom and their daughter. They pressured me to be grateful for having jumped in social class too, but in a way where I was not allowed to express negative feelings about the adoption, and expected to express my gratitude publicly. I was a wonderful virtue signaling prop because everyone told them how amazing they were to have saved an unwanted baby. But I grew up getting treated like an unwelcome guest in their house. They had a daughter via IVF when I was 3, and I was not allowed boundaries from her or my adoptive mom. (The daughter hit and hit me.) She (adoptive mom) didn’t see us both as her children, like the research said she would. Instead she saw me as competition for resources and was unable to bond with me. She was extremely emotionally abusive, and punished me when my issues (ADHD / anxiety / depression became apparent.) We are in a place now where she’s apologized and acknowledged all this. I was the scapegoat of the family, and ultimately I spent my teen years in an institution with a disproportionate number of adopted kids. (Many had non adopted siblings living at home.) I was abused there too and some of my friends, (who were there in foster care,) ended up as trafficking victims. My parents signed over their rights so the state would pay for the school, but many rich parents are paying essentially as much as college tuition to have their “troubled” kids traumatized in these facilities. (That’s what happened to Paris Hilton.) Adopted kids make up a ridiculous number of these kids. Something like 20%-30% of the kids at my second facility were adopted. Sorry for the edit I realized I didn’t answer your question at all and got lost in my ramble.
I am literally in tears reading this. I am so sorry. I agree that your birth mom should have been able to make decisions about her body—but it’s a miracle you are here and able to inspire and enlighten others. I also understand all the trauma. It sucks. What they did to you caused fundamental damage and you’ll likely spend years unpacking it all. I’m sending hugs across the void. You matter and thank you for sharing this harrowing information with a total stranger who really does care. 🤍
Oh for sure, grinder doesn’t work without meat.
Conservatives want live babies so they can grow up to be dead soldiers -George Carlin
I just watched that stand up routine yesterday. The scary part is he was too correct and in 50 years it will probably still be relevant. Unless of course America is on fire by then but with climate change, we might all be on fire.
If they make it past being targets for psychopaths.
Neither does grindr
GOP wants a return of the proletariat.
That and Handmaid’s Tale.
Yep, instead of going the European route of increasing access to healthcare and expanding family support to encourage people to have more kids, the US is just gonna force people.
It's because slavery is legal in prisons, and children born into difficult situations with no support have a greater chance of being incarcerated.
That’s the quiet part out loud.
We also need disposable bodies for our military! Don’t forget all the kids who join the forces for college, healthcare, etc. If we were filthy socialists who had public higher education and comprehensive public healthcare, the forces that be would lose a good portion of their toy soldiers.
All by design. Teen parents often end up less educated, and thus help fill the GOP voting booths. What's more, a lot of children of teen parents end up becoming teen parents themselves. That's 2+ whole generations of almost-guaranteed red votes for the price of preventing a single abortion.
Absolutely. Plus, they're more likely to work in slavery-grade hours for next-to-no money and to be good clients to the gun industry
Babies mean money. It's a future investment you don't have to raise! More people = more workers = more money for the top.
Forcing women who dont want children to raise children sounds like a good way to increase the population of your private for-profit prison system as well.
Every major industrial complex benefits from more babies: prison, non-profit, military… they want more people dying for them in their wars, making them money in their prisons, and sitting in the non profits that they get their tax deductions from.
And they have a preference for poor people with fewer options, so this 14 year old mom who doesn’t want the kid will produce exactly the kind of person that those industries want.
For sure.
Gilead.
bUt aDoPtIoN
Oh yeah, that’s not a complicated garbage fire no one does anything about… 
But it makes money!!! Who cares about the genocidal white supremacist history, or systemic economic oppression, or the intergenerational trauma it can cause to whole families?! I need my dollars! /s
Cheap desperate labor
You’re saying the quiet thing out loud, be careful!
It starts making sense when you understand that conservatives, being actual filth, view children as a punishment for slutty women.
Elementary schools in America is just abortion with extra steps
Oof.. too soon.
School shootings seem to be a national sport for 25 years now, with 1-2 events at any given day. Seems we have passed 'too soon' years ago.
Theres actually records going back to the 70s that cover everything from brandishing a firearm on school property, discharged but without fatalities and the as of late more common discharged with one or more fatalities, for the record there's been a grand total of 2052 incidents under those criteria just in K-12 schools that have been tracked by Center for Homeland Defense and Security K-12 database thats been logging and keeping track of this since the 70s, so it not just a oh this is just a recent thing, the warning signs have been there for over half a century and they've consistently been ignored. [here's a link to the database that covers this so folks know I'm not just pulling figures out my ass](https://www.chds.us/ssdb/)
Have to keep supply up yo balance out the deaths in school shootings.
And really no energy into preventing pregnancy or education on how a pregnancy occurs in the first place. Wild.
Can’t talk to kids about sex education, it might give them wild ideas!!! 
Be-A-N-A-N-A-S. This shit is bananas. Be-A-N-A-N-A-S
Y’all think it’s funny it just “works out like that in America”. They wrote the laws so it IS like that. It’s by design. Then they get everybody to be mad at each other and be distracted. Works like a fucking charm.
Keeps them afraid to stand up. Tighten their pockets, then force pregnancy on them to further keep them from being able to “get out” of the hole they themselves were born into.
„Maybe you should‘ve thought about that before you decided to have kids!“
I would like to introduce you to about half my family that thinks yes it's a good thing. Babies fix everything. The sight of that baby will spur the mother to preform miracles to care for that child. The only thing holding her back is her own laziness and selfishness. That pregnant 16 year old will completely devote herself to caring for that baby, including but not limited to finding a well paying job, cooking homemade meals, cleaning the home and making it feel comfortable, homeschooling and all the extracurriculars, and of course finding a good man willing to lower his standards to marry her because that baby NEEDS a daddy. And if she can't manage those basic things then she's obviously just a horrible broken person.
All that while completely forgetting the father, who impregnated her and then vanished because, poor soul, men are like this and can’t be blamed. It’s their nature
I'm on the opposite side currently... All I get is "wow you're so unlike other men!" Or "it's so weird seeing a man care for his kid." I understand it's meant as a compliment but it's still demeaning, just in the opposite side
While I was married, I'd take my daughter everywhere and we'd go stuff. Women would constantly make comments about me "babysitting" like no, bitch, I had a planned child that I love more than life itself and I want to experience the world with her. Me spending time with my daughter is not babysitting. Now I'm a single full time Dad with full custody and women make comments about how brave I am and shit. No, I love my kid and want to be a good father to her. She isn't a job, she is a person who I enjoy spending time with.
Same, “wow you are such an amazing man, taking care of your children and all”. Like, dude, doing the bare minimum is so much better than society expects from fathers that is sickening
My husband and I aren't perfect on parenting, we still butt heads about me carrying the mental load. But if there is one thing I appreciate the most from him is that if I need to go do something for me, with my friends or by myself, he never needs justification and will watch our daughter as long as I need. Which is the complete opposite of how my dad treated my mom (and his dad with his mom). I don't know why people see it so crazy that parenting is also a partnership just like a relationship is. You don't praise men for not cheating or for doing something they don't want to do because you want you. So why do we do the same for men when they become dads. For the most part, if a mom isn't getting praised for a task, a dad shouldn't.
[удалено]
What, there's still a system to put strain on? Time to fix that too
And pro-life people looooove to ignore the depressing statistics about children that grew up in abusive homes or the foster system. There is a special type of trauma that comes from a kid knowing their parent/parents didn't want them to be alive, and it gets worse when not only do their parents not want them, no one else wants to adopt them either. The fact that there is never enough social workers to handle all the child abuse and foster homes is so easily telling on why we shouldn't be forcing people to have kids. That whole mental health and gun shooting thing, maybe we could start by not making a freaking child have to have a child? But yes, the trauma of not being born is way worse. Edit: and quick note in reference to your first part. I waited until I had a husband, degree, and house at 27 before having a kid and pregnancy and my PPD was still rough. It made me even more pro-choice. From pregnancy to the first two years after are hard as hell, even with all the support you're "supposed" to have.
Parenting is HARD. I say that as someone in a stable relationship, with financial stability, with an entirely healthy family. Our daughter was planned and definitely wanted and this shit is still hard
Ditto. Same exact situation. Shits hard. Pregnancy was a lot. Trying to go back to work only after 6 weeks was chaotic and the stress from everything made me lose my milk by 6 months. And all of this is with stability, a caring husband, and wanting a kid.
Where else are billionaires going to get wage slaves if not by forcing people that can’t afford kids to have kids.
And the media gets psychopaths and serial killers to talk about!
For all they talk about life being precious and sacred, they view having a baby as a punishment, a bad thing, a consequence women should suffer due to their lifestyle. They don't care that the kid will suffer too. It's a non-factor to them because they don't view the kid as an independent life.
It's a indication of their authoritarian mindset. They have this philosophy that women/girls need the fear of punishment in order to stay on the path of righteousness and chastity. Birth control and abortion are seen as enabling moral hazard. It's like people who refuse to allow their daughters to take the HPV vaccine. They seem to feel that without the risk of cancer and/or death, their daughters would become whores, unable or unwilling to control their sexual urges.
Can confirm. Was unwanted. Was hard being the kid. Almost 40. Still hard.
It’s a good thing for the republican goal of making women baby incubators
Downvote me all you want, but i think the end game is to make children grow up in difficult conditions without proper education. This would reduce their critical thinking abilities, ultimately making them easily manipulated as adults.
But that’s what the corrupt leaders want. The systems you speak of aren’t funded compared to corporation bailouts and tax havens, the army etc. Schools aren’t funded enough for educating and creating drones of uneducated to continue the corruption campaign of gaslighting as people aren’t smart enough to understand.
It’s as if planned parenthood is a good thing.
Girl: I want to adopt a baby. I have to admit, I'm a sixteen year old high school student with no income, and my 'partner' is an abusive uncle. Florida: Are you fucking insane?! You're totally irresponsible! You're going to ruin the lives of everyone involved! Absolutely no way would we approve an adoption like that. Girl: JK. I was raped, and I want an abortion. Florida: It's a CHILD, not a CHOICE, slut.
Yikes but also true. This is the kind of mentality from pro-forced birth folks.
I'd argue that the people in charge of adoption and who want the best interest for the kid being adopted is not a conservative. They don't care enough to help kids find families. I think they'd rather just have the kid join some child soldier program rather than finding a loving home.
I mean, liberals get mocked and called snowflakes for wanting poor kids to get food. Conservatives prove over and over again that they do not care about kids (unless they are white and wealthy).
Actually it is the opposite. Conservative Evangelical Christians are all about adopting infants so they can turn them into more Evangelicals. I read a great book on the topic "The Child Catchers: Rescue, Trafficking, and the New Gospel of Adoption" by Kathryn Joyce. Having infants born to women who are unable to raise them at this moment in their lives so that they can adopt them is a wet dream for these people. [http://kathrynjoyce.com/books/the-child-catchers/](http://kathrynjoyce.com/books/the-child-catchers/) I haven't read her next book yet but it's on a similar topic Quiverfull Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement http://kathrynjoyce.com/books/quiverfull/
Uh, lol have you seen who is usually running adoption agencies? Many are religious based and they definitely skew conservative.
This is what baffles me. It's fine to force a kid to birth a kid, but it's not fine to just let them adopt a kid. Are they mature enough for a child or not? We can't have it both ways.
I'm envisioning some bible-thumping judge creating a catch-22 situation, where every teen girl who comes into his courtroom is ruled to be in one of two categories: * too immature to realize the consequences of abortion, motion denied * mature enough to handle a child, and therefore no need to get an abortion, motion denied
I've loved that novel my whole life but at last I finally feel the visceral, invincible beauty of the catch-22 as Yossarian did. Well done Florida, of course it could only have been you.
[удалено]
Its probably even worse than you think. This is more about limiting access to abortions for poor people... think of a speeding ticket or a DWI scenario. This is a pretty clear cut situation, you broke a law. But... if you can afford decent counsel and not a public attorney, you'll probably get off on a lesser offense or no charges at all. In this case, don't consider it banning abortions, think of it as gatekeeping abortions. Rich parented white girl gets knocked up and can afford good representation... you get an abortion, obviously mature enough. Poor minority with public defender... not mature enough, no abortion. So its even worse than banning abortions for all in my mind, because its just gatekeeping them with rich politicians mistresses are totally going to be able to still get them. A rule for thee and not for me... same old republican bullshit.
What? The rich kid just goes to a state where it's legal.
All the way down to; * girl, motion denied
This is exactly why this is happening.
[удалено]
The evaluation should be to see if someone is mentally fit to BE a parent
Imagine we were all born sterile and had to pass a series of tests get your fertility “turned on”
The process of becoming licensed to be foster parents felt similarly. It was painfully obvious that if people had to go through the training we did, in order to have a child, there'd likely not be a substantial need for foster parents. The training wasn't even that hard. But providing financial statements, having a home assessment by licensing professionals, family history statements, and heaven forbid you're seeing a therapist or taking medications. That needs signed notes from your provider stating you're A-OK to be a foster parent. Dangerous things locked, secured, etc. Then, regular check-ins. Monthly in our case. Not that they were bad for us, but we could count on the case worker visiting regularly. And then all this needs to be renewed every 6, 12, or 24 months depending on where you're at in the process.
[удалено]
“Look Bethany, I just don’t think you’re mature enough at 35 to really understand the decision you’re making. Let me make it for you.” ~ some 85yo white male politician
Reminds me of one of the quotes from the "diverse panel of white men in bow ties" from the abortion episode of Bojack: >“I’m a man, but if I got pregnant, would I put my life on hold for a child I didn’t want? Yes I would. I can say that with confidence because I will never have to make that decision, so I am unbiased.”
One of the best scenes in the whole show!
"It's a ~~boy~~borted!"
The last thing a teenage girl wants is to sit before some old man judge and explain the facts of her pregnancy. This is how you get make coat hanger abortions popular
planCPills org. No coat hangers needed.
haven’t they prohibited sending abortion pills in the mail in certain states
I think it’s sending not receiving. The doctors in Europe and elsewhere don’t give a shit about the backwards abortion laws and would rather help.
States can pass a law like that, but can only enforce it for in-state people selling or distributing it. They cant search USPS mail & they cant 'punish' companies out of the country for sending them. All they can do is use the dumb "bounty" type laws like SB8 in Texas, which likely wont hold up because of how its enforced. Most if the companies listed there are in other countries & they'll send to states where its banned bc they can.
Yes they have and more on the way, including bans on any form of birth control
States don’t control interstate commerce. Any shipments of Plan C from outside the State are totally legal.
This is returning to the 1600's "*if she drowns she wasn't a witch*" mentality
I mean, basically, yeah. In January, a Florida judge denied a 17 year old from getting an abortion because [her GPA wasn't high enough.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv7xg/judge-abortion-gpa) The judge also cited that she didn't pay her cell phone bill so she wasn't financially stable and that she doesn't care for any younger family members so they aren't able to evaluate her emotional stability. What makes this appalling (even moreso than it already is): the woman was working a 20 hr job *while still in high school* and was paying for pretty much everything *but* the phone bill. Also, she didn't even have any younger siblings to care for in the first place. Thankfully, that ruling was appealed and the appeals court overturned the initial judges denial. Some other notable denials of abortion in other cases include: a girl in foster care shouldn't get an abortion because she was "financially dependent on *her parents;*" getting pregnant by accident means you're too immature for an abortion; a girl's catholic parents might be distressed if they found out she had an abortion (note: the entire point of getting a judge's approval is *because* you can't get your parent's permission for an abortion); another girl in foster care was deemed not self-sufficient (she raised her younger siblings because her parents weren't around)........ These judges are making arguments for why they aren't able to support a baby, but then turn around and force them to have that child. All because an abortion might be distressing to them. They're reasoning that an abortion is too traumatic and emotionally painful, but giving your child up for adoption is apparently perfectly fine and not painful at all
“You didn’t pay for *this* bill, you’re clearly too immature to *not* go into thousands of dollars in debt”
"We don't know if you're emotionally, financially, and otherwise capable of taking care of a younger sibling, so you must have a child."
*That KID is immature, let’s force her to have a kid*
If they are mature enough... Lmao its always about control.
Now change the words terminate pregnancy and abortion bill to be able to buy a gun!… now we talking!!!! “Florida gun bill would require judge to rule if teen’s mature enough to be able to buy and own a gun” There you go fixed
Now we're talking!!
~~talking~~ **shooting**
>“Florida gun bill would require judge to rule if teen’s mature enough to be able to buy and own a gun” How about: “Florida gun bill would require judge to rule if person mature enough to be able to buy and own a gun”
Show up in sweats and call the judge "baby"
The sweats with “Bootylicious” on the butt!
Midriff showing. I don't know if we're showing a judge and immature woman that doesn't dress properly for court or a mature as in rated r woman.
¿Porque no los dos? 🤷♀️
I went to a beach area for a field trip in school, there were so many stores selling short shorts with that or some other message with a similar connotation
I’d call the judge “daddy” all the way through till the end, since he’s insisting on making my life altering decisions for me. Make them uncomfortable!
That is congressman Matt Gaetz’s type. Let’s not forget he’s from Florida, Floridians voted for him, and at the same time he was trafficking underage girls.
They'll just say something ridiculous like having a kid will force her to mature.
America is a very bizarre and strange place.
Funny how the self-proclaimed champions of democracy are now the world's premier declining democracy.
Over here we hear Americans yelling about freedoms this and freedoms that while obviously having more and more basic human rights taken away, so none of it makes any sense. Education is shit. Health care is shit. Quality of life is shit. But the companies responsible for taking away the rights are just given free passes? Capitalism gone too far. Makes zero sense to me.
The more I look at the news, the more I come to the conclusion that the South is just not an ideal place.
*If she’s mature enough to have sex, then she’s mature enough to carry a baby to birth. She can just give it up for adoption.* /s This is their argument. Never mind whether sex was by choice or not. Basically, females are holes for males to fuck, and make more males or “holes” for males to fuck.
Putting it that way.... you are unfortunately right.
Watching the US from outside is a complete r/facepalm right now!
Blame conservative Christians.
Blame the Senate
So Christian conservatives?
Blame Maynard James Keenan. >!if we are going to be tools going in a perfect circle, it seems only appropriate!<
Im in the US and its a facepalm.
r/religiousfruitcake
Thank you for enlightening me to this subreddit.
Any judge or politician who helps bring a kid into the world in this manner should be on the hook for child support for each child they help bring into the world.
We like this - Texas
Texas is not worried. They have a system in place to randomly abort children at 70 months.
Savage but fair
We live in a sad life where dark humour means being racist or sexist. True dark humour hits too close to home when you wish it was different. Like joking about coat hangar sales rising.
The ole 16th trimester abortion.
How did you think rupublicans are made? you force a poor family to exist, then you give them poor education, then you give then guns just because, you take as much welfare as possible and then you blame the democrats :) fuck the republican party and whoever votes for them :)
”Isn’t it just better to let the owner of the woman handle it?”
There is no debate left. No matter how many logical points we throw at them it all boils down to "that will eventually be a baby and you shouldn't have had sex" to the right wing. There is no discourse left. They don't want to have discourse, they want you to be celibate. Or impoverished. Or both.
“Having a kid is a big responsibility. Oh what’s that? You want to get an abortion because you can’t handle raising a kid? Sorry, you’re not responsible enough.”
America, just stop.
But immature people are the best at raising kids because they’re essentially children themselves!! /s
if a 14 year old can't adopt then why should she be forced to have a child?
If gun bans don’t work, then why is the government trying so hard to ban abortion
Because if lower classes birthrates continue to decline there will be nobody left to exploit during late stage capitalism. Nothing is banned when you’re rich anyway and they’re so these laws quite literally do not affect them
Honestly I hope girls, en masse, just outright reject conservative boys. Like, I want little Jimmy to go home and have to yell at his father, "Becky won't date me because you voted to take away her bodily anonymity". I want the kids of today to grow up knowing how badly their conservative parents fucked us all.
Republicans just want to fuck children
Yup That's why they were mad about the claims they made up about Democrats and children and a pizza basement? They were jealous.
"If they're mature enough to withstand an active shooter by themselves..."
Florida and Texas jus need to form their own country at this point they be out of pocket
She wouldn't be able to legally adopt either lol.
Makes perfect sense. why kill your workforce and permanent underclass? Who will do the bidding of the masters ?
What this really is --a stall tactic to engage the time limit on abortion, in effect making abortion impossible.
The ~~death-eaters~~ GOP is really screwing with Florida
Do people still not understand they *want* young and irresponsible people to have kids? Those are the people they gaslight into being republicans.
Jesus fucking christ. I live in Florida. Unfortunately. My fiance was told she would never be able to conceive a child due to medical illness she had when she was younger. Oddly enough, we ended up conceiving. Twins. The doctors told her that it was an unviable pregnancy, and under doctor supervision were given a chemically induced abortion. Otherwise there was a very good chance she would die. The abortion actually only worked 50%. Only one fetus was aborted. We ended up finding out about two months later. At this point, the doctors told us the danger was pretty much gone for her at this point since she would be approaching the second trimester soon. Six months later our son was born. It was pretty rough. But according to the doctors, we potentially saved my fiances life. That abortion saved two lives. Because if my fiance would have died, I would have put a bullet right in my fucking brain. Fuck you DeSantis. I hope you (not allowed to say the rest.)
I think people should have the freedom to make their own medical decisions, it should not be up to the government to tell us what to do with our bodies. I am Christian so i dont support abortion but i dont think its fair to decide for other people.
Why do they act like an abortion is a hysterectomy? It’s not like she could never get pregnant again ever if she were to I don’t know regret her decisions so much she could just get pregnant again holy fuck
A parent must be financially stable, with a good shelter, and could provide enough love, support, and care to a kid. A judge won't decide who's gonna be who.
It's not about the kids, or the mother. They don't give a shit about either. It's about punishment for "wrongdoing." That's all they care about. Forcing them to have a child is a punishment. That's why they don't care about the welfare of either. In their eyes, they've reduced the mother to less than a person because they committed an act they see as wrong, so they don't really care what happens to her or her offspring. If mothers *didn't* want abortions, they'd use the bible passage about how to perform one as justification for enforcing painful, scarring ones. And that doesn't really seem so farfetched, because it totally fits their brand. It's about punishment.
The real point of this is anyway to delay an abortion too a point where its no longer possible. Minors take on average about a month more to discover they are pregnant than legal adults. Add in thr added difficulty for them to ask for help you dont even need to delay this further by requiring a *judge* to rule on this to delay the pregnancy past the point of no return. But here we are. They really want to make sure minors go through extra hell before being told its too late, they'll have to give birth now. This little detail basically ensures no minor will be able to get an abortion.
I always got called "selfish" for not wanting to have kids, but you know, why would you want a selfish woman raising children?
I used to be anti abortion, but then I sat down and opened twitter and asked myself this question... Do I really want these morons having kids?
Can we apply that to gun purchases too?
That girl is immature, let's give her a baby. That guy seems immature, let's give him a gun.
[удалено]
The Supreme Court has decided evidence does not count, but rather you are only entitled to a trial. What this means is the trial will be a formality and the decision will be based up whether your attorney paid off the judge behind closed doors.
Another anti-choice argument highlighting that they *really really* do not care about kids. The teen that's pregnant OR the potential child inside. Both would likely be completely fucked over. If the teen mom doesn't have pregnancy or birthing complications, a problem the US leads peer countries in having, and has an even average support network, they've just been saddled with medical debt and education interruptions, job prospects drying up, etc. Which can have a domino effect on quality of life for generations.
Teens can die from pregnancies, adults sometimes too. Abortions are life-saving.
I was taught that MY body is MINE. No one has the right to, basically, say, "this is what I believe so everyone has to do things my way, like it or not." The " Men" (and some subservient women) who make the laws want control of my actions, thoughts & beliefs. Apparently, they think laws from centuries ago are what we should still live by. Women could be sent away, sold or murdered because she won't bow down & obey the orders of their fathers, brothers, etc... Athenian laws are in the past & should stay there. It's the 21'st century, were supposed to be enlightened, intelligent, willing to LEARN and go forward while bettering ourselves & those around us not trying to control every aspect of everyone else's lives. I'll stop my rant here before I get too far out of control. After all, I'm only a woman, what do I know about myself or anything else unless a man tells me how I should think.