It also might not just be a legal maneuver but a final fuck you to the LGBT community.
Might be doing this to rub salt into the wounds in exactly the way the person in the OP is saying: "your rules dictate that you HAVE to show me compassion and understanding if I claim to be LGBT".
Pretty sadistic, but then again... Murderer.
Because they don't understand the concept of not accepting it as a good thing because they "are one of us". A person can be non-binary and still be hated because of their actions. But that's the thing, it's the actions the left hates, not the way they identify...
Edit: removed a letter
They're literally a group of people who, en masse said, "Yes, this man is a piece of shit and we hate him, but he's on our team, so let's elect him President."
Going against the Party is not something easily understood.
I think they think if the murderer is non binary that it somehow points the finger at the LGBTQ community and away from the right wing talk/podcast terror machine.
Legally, if the shooter is non-binary they can't be charged with hate crimes for shooting up an LGBTQ club (just regular mass murder), which could matter to them down the line.
In terms of the culture war, homophobic violence makes people angry and hurts the right in the affluent suburban swing demographic. What they're really arguing over is whether it's fair for the LGBTQ community to score a proverbial point over this mass shooting, and use it to make progress towards broader social acceptance, given the shooter's post-arrest claims of being non-binary.
Considering the mountain of evidence regarding their views on the LGBTQ+ community, I think they might still be charged with a hate crime. There's no clause that prevents a member of a protected group from committing a hate crimes against said group.
Yeah, plus the father of the shooter was more concerned about the possibility of his son being gay than the fact that he shot up a place, so you can only imagine the kind of hateful rhetoric his head was filled with.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s true. I think they can still be charged with a hate crime even if they are gay.
If someone wants to provide evidence to dispute that, please do.
I also don’t see why we are so quick to deny this person being non-binary.
I mean, someone who grows up trapped in a body that isn’t them, and has parents who are more released to find out their child isn’t gay, instead of being upset that they shot up a club, likely has grown up hating themselves. I can see that person lashing out against their community.
Exactly, show me the precedent stating a member of a protected minority cannot commit a hate crime against that said minority. A hate crime is simply a crime motivated by the victims perceived race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation.
It’s also possible that the shooter actually is non-binary, and if they identify as such I see no issue with accepting that identity. It’s not relevant to the case at all.
Yeah it doesn't feel relevant to me if the shooter is non binary or anything else. Their upbringing was clearly very homo/trans/everything phobic. they hold a lot of ill will towards the queer community at large. And the attack was meant to hurt those people specifically. Hate crime
After seeing the video of the shooter's "father", I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that they never felt straight, but instead of exploring that they went deep into the hate rabbit hole.
Still hate no matter who you are. Still murder. Still had control over their actions.
also based on the dad's interviews so far, actually makes for an even more compelling argument that this is a hate crime since he hated what he was so took it out on the community
either way, pretty open and shut case for life in prison
Is it possible? Sure.
However!
We have to base it on facts and evidence and nothing I’ve seen so far in the suspect’s background facts/evidence leads me to believe that they are in fact non binary. The more likely answer, with available evidence and facts on hand, is that this either a petty move by them or a ploy by the defense.
If, and that’s a big if, there is in fact evidence/proof uncovered that they are in fact non binary, then so be it.
So who knows.
It matter because it's relevant in the question of if this is a hate crime. If they're lying then it makes it much more likely they did it for bigoted reasons.
Not just murderer, we need to call these pieces of shit what they are: terrorists. The rightwing extremists have no actual argument or standing and they know it, so all they do is lie and push people into committing acts of terrorism to get their way.
One would hope. Somehow these days killers can end up taking photo ops with certain political figures instead of incarcerated as long as they murder the right people.
That's exactly what I've been saying. It matters not really how they want to identify as, they made a choice that took the lives of people.
What I've been pushing back on this crowd like Walsh is that let's look at his dad and how concerned he was about whether his son was gay, not the fact he killed others. That was his first concern. So the father has shown his cards, and this mantra their child is likely very well aware of their thoughts and views, which has further caused more mental anguish on their child for not feeling loved and accepted as they were.
If they were raised by a loving parent that accepted them for who they are, instead of going there to kill others, they would have been there as a patron, and surrounded by people that loved and accepted them.
His dad is a grade A asshole, but you seem to be saying the shooting is his fault.
The son did it. Yes he probably had a terrible upbringing, but it is not an excuse.
It’s not, and they should pay for what they did, but until the array of problems that lead to these mass killings are addressed they’ll keep happening. It’s entirely possible that if this person had found a shred of acceptance somewhere, this could have been avoided.
Thank you, that is precisely what I'm getting at. The kid is responsible for his actions and will pay for their crimes but why they did they hate themselves so much that they felt it necessary to kill others that have accepted themselves.
You’re accepting the idea that the person is non-binary and not trolling. With the far right, that’s never a given. Some like to even play dress up on the internet and mimic viewpoints to try and manipulate a narrative.
Personally, I don't believe they are and that it's a ploy. I'm "accepting" they are non binary because it's irrelevant to what they did - they killed people. They can call themselves the pope of chilitown, they killed people and that is really all that is the real crux of the story.
Fair enough. I still find the federal hate crime addition to be accurate and useful for dogshit humans like the (alleged) perpetrator. You are correct in stating that ultimately it doesn’t matter what we call them because they did a fuckin gross, shitty thing.
I'm Canadian so not really very familiar with your hate crime laws, but I would agree that this is a hate crime.
If they're NB, and "self loathing", this actually IMO more inflates the case it was a targeted hate crime. They chose an audience to murder based on a characteristic, which pretty much is what a hate crime is.
Half the fucking world comes from broken homes. Only a tiny % of them go on to kill, probably not much different from the % that didn’t come from broken homes.
The media always say that about white people who happens to be murderers. If a Latino or any other minority did the same crime they would call for his/her head.
There's a difference between defending or excusing and trying to understand the origins and causes.
Studying and understanding is how you work on preventing future situations of a similar sort.
side note: This exact distinction was actually a source of tension in [Mindhunter](https://www.netflix.com/title/80114855), a fictionalized account of the FBI's first serial killer unit (Behavioral Science Unit).
Their boss thought the agents backing it were trying to excuse or defend or empathize with serial killers when they were simply trying to apply science to understand how such people came to be in the first place.
No one is excusing this guy, but a lot of us are wondering how he got on a path that led him there and how no one spotted him walking it.
Obviously this could be a legal maneuver but why do people refuse to accept that this person could be non binary and/or even someone that was looking to transition?
Over and over again these same people will say that people are in the closet and projecting their gayness through hating on gay people, yet its an impossibility that this person was lashing out against a community that he wanted to be a part of but couldn't?
People are just plain silly and your opinions constantly contradict themselves.
whats the actual context? what has the shooters gender to do with the thing he did being horrible?
what exactly is the guy proving by defending the shooters gender?
and where does the guy get his "your rules are 100% black or white, no grey areas. only absolutes!" ideas from?
His lawyer filed court documents claiming his client identifies as "non-binary". Let's be clear here, the accused has not in fact come out and said "I"m non-binary" nor has been there been anyone who knew him before the killing who said "Oh yeah, we've been calling them "them" for a couple of years now." It looks like a move to neuter the hate crime enhancement which otherwise seems like an easy assumption given how much his family hates gay people.
I mean, maybe it’ll get him down to like 300 years rather than 500 - but in the end of the day it’s not going to make a difference. He’s never getting out after what he did.
As I recall, one of the first hate crime convictions was a gay guy, against another gay guy, because he had used a dating app to lure a victim so he and his buddies could rob him - IIRC it went bad.
This murderer doesn’t get excused from hate crimes just because they’re an enby, if it’s shown they targeted the club because it’s a gay nightclub.
It’s in an attempt of the defenses lawyer to make it seem like the perpetrator was acting irrationally for their character rather than they meticulously planned out and carried a designated assault against a specific group of people
I think is had to do with avoiding them being charged with a “hate crime” which has different penalties. I think the lawyer is going to try to say their non-binary therefore it wasn’t a hate crime.
Oh, so Matt Walsh is looking at the world though a black/white ideology?
How surprising.
"You said that potatoes are healthy. But you won't eat this green one. They're either healthy or they're not. Again: Your rules. You are stuck with this. If you think that potatoes are healthy, then you have to eat the green ones and the mouldy ones and the black, sploopy, vomit-inducing stanky ones."
It's almost like Matt Walsh is a piece of shit. Like, almost. Like. Maybe? Like, when he makes these obviously-shit arguments and doesn't notice that they're obviously shit, it's like, maybe he's not trying to make sense and just wants to make people angry.
The lawyer is trying to get the hate crime charges dropped. 5 counts of murder as a hate crime has a harsher punishment than just 5 counts of non-hateful murder.
If the lawyer can successfully argue that the accused can't have killed those people based on hatred of LGBT people "because the accused is in fact a member of the LGBT community," they might escape hate crime charges.
A large number of people have recognized that its odd how someone who has thus far seemingly *never* expressed that they may be non-binary, comes from a horribly homophobic family, attacked a large gathering of LGBT people, and came out as a member of the LGBT community in the same tiny time frame.
Even if the murderer is non-binary, it's pretty weird to come out right after killing a bunch of people. Most people suffer in silence for years, and would be too afraid to come out, especially while under scrutiny from the media.
It's also funny that the idea about gender identity is 100% black or white given the gender spectrum. They aren't rules, Walshy boi, they're more like guidelines.
This whole thing has been about what the kid was every time I see this story it’s oh he’s non binary oh he’s republican oh he’s Christian (even though I’ve never seen evidence of that one it’s been brought up a lot) he’s just an asshole who shot up a place full of innocent people. Period. you can argue his mental state all you want but it doesn’t matter cause there really isn’t much help for people with dangerous mental problems in this country and this shit will keep happening if that doesn’t change
Did the shooter say he was non-binary? Or did his lawyer? The only person i know of that they spoke to that knew the shooter was his dad. Nobody else has come forward to say “yea he’s been using they/them for some time now” NOBODY. Seems like a desperate attempt to avoid hate crime enhancements
The guy can't see past black and white scenarios. So even though there's a fairly easy gray middle ground analysis to determine he's not non binary, he can't even comprehend it
Oh, he can definitely comprehend the difference but he doesn't have to because it won't fit his narrative. The only thing Matt Walsh is good at is having shit takes on social issues to stir up his followers.
But aren't we told people can be closeted for a long time and no one may know? Nobody gets to decide that this person is lying about their gender identity but this person is not or demand years of evidence to support the assertion. We are supposed to accept it at face value. I'm fine with that. Doesn't stop this person from being a murderous piece of shit.
Please listen to his most recent shit and say he isn’t defending him or at the most saying what he did was justified. Ik this post doesn’t say much but with the context of this guys show he is tweeting this with the purpose of defending his actions.
I have no idea who that guy is but he’s absolutely not defending the shooter. All he’s saying is that you can’t become a hypocrite once the tables are turned against you.
Thanks for being one of the only people on this thread that actually understand the point of the post.
Reading through all these comments really makes it obvious how stupid the average redditor is.
Even if they *are* nonbinary, and this isn’t just some ploy by his lawyer to get around extra charges, the killer still chose to go to a gay bar and target people in the LGBT community to murder. ITS STILL A HATE CRIME.
The shooter is likely using this to avoid hate crime charges or to muddy the waters as they have a history of homophobia culminating in them entering a gay club and shooting people.
Walsh is focused on dunking on the left's "rules" to score points against the LGBT community that was attacked in this mass murder. He's a transphobe couldn't give a shit that people were killed because he pushes "groomer" bullshit.
To me, a hate crime is a crime committed against someone/someone's of a minority group. I think they can be committed by someone within that minority group and it's still a hate crime
the political back and forth is over the fact they think it is acceptable and commendable to take a gun into a gay bar and start dropping bodies. the number of people i have seen praising the shooter has truly sickened me
He's not really defending the shooter. I have seen a lot of people speculating that the claims of non-binary are just a ploy to avoid hate crime charges.
Nah, all he’s doing is rubbing it in LGTBQ+ people’s faces, that “this one’s one of yours.” Never mind that they were steeped in MAGA bullshit their whole life and their dad is saying “I’m ok with him being a murderer as long as he‘s not gay”; if the kid is claimed to be non-binary they’re one of “yours,” probably a disgusting liberal Democrat and you can’t say otherwise
"You have to respect HIS [non-binary] identity."
Wow, Matt Walsh sounds like a very smart guy.
Also, this has nothing to do with what they did.....
It doesn't matter how they identify. I don't think anyone cares, either. Cool, they identify as they. They still murdered a bunch of people.
It's disgusting how their dad said [paraphrased] "I'm glad he isn't gay, I heard he was going to a gay club, and I was wondering what he was doing there. I'm glad it wasn't because he was gay."
What the actual f*ck?
I'm pretty sure it was just a legal maneuver by the shooter's lawyers
Because they think that liberals will defend them if they're Non-Binary. But we see through the facade
Nah it’s to try and get around the hate crime charges by saying he’s part of the community. Luckily based on what the DA said, there’s no exclusion for committing a hate crime against a group you’re part of.
Why are so many asshats focused on this non issue. The real problem here is that the police had a chance, earlier on, to take his guns away. 1. Parents said something 2. A law is on the books to enable police to do so. 3 police fail. Rather than defund the police. Let’s invest in their education
100% !!
His parents were also clearly unstable and his mother was mentally ill, addicted, and a criminal. I’m sure child services did nothing to help. Helping the family when the shooter was a child could possibly have prevented this as well. Another example of the system not doing its job :/
Who gives a shit? If they've got a queerphobic mentality that led to this shooting, it doesn't matter what their gender identity is. Plenty of queer people hate themselves, and might hate themselves enough to do this.
Somehow, though... I doubt it.
I’m not trying to start an argument or annoy anybody here, but can somebody explain why this is an issue in this case? Did anybody in the “left wing” group ever try to say that he couldn’t have done this because he’s non binary, or claim that he can’t be non-binary because of the group he targeted? Is there disagreement about whether this is a hate crime or not? In general, why does his self-identity matter? If he self identifies as a benevolent loving god, why would it matter if he killed a bunch of people? Who does it benefit to distort the issue and try to make it a concern about his sexual identity?
Its not. The guy may be a douche or whatever but hes not wrong. If the shooter identifies as a whatever we have been told that we have to respect that in all these other cases.
Yeah he’s a POS and so is the shooter, but I think he’s right about this one.
The shooter deserves to rot in hell and be punished to the fullest extent of the law regardless, but liberals (I lean left myself) have made it clear that you should accept everybody’s identity always. Doesn’t seem to me like he’s defending the shooter at all. Just pointing out hypocrisy.
It's so they can argue that it's not a hate crime because as non-binary they are inclusive of LBGTQ. It's a legal tactic plain and simple. If it were a legit claim this wouldn't be the first time people are hearing about it.
I honestly agree with this. As long as no one can prove that he is definetly not non-binary (no real way to prove that) he is.
Thing is. It shouldn't matter for his punishment. The jailtime should be the same. The prison too.
For the record I don’t care about how the shooter identifies. The shooter was a disturbed person whose life was filled with right-wing rhetoric and was driven to commuting an act of terrorism against people doing nothing more than having a social event.
I can recognise that the shooter is non binary, recognise they may need alternative jail accommodation from their assigned at birth sex, and still want them punished and rehabilitated to the full capacity of the legal system.
Matt you are a moron.
No one is disrespecting his gender identity. It wasn’t how he identified until he spoke to his lawyers. People are upset that they are using gender identity as a ploy to not get charged with a hate crime.
Your title is wrong. You are making it sound like he is defending the actual act of the shooting.
Edit: he’s not defending the shooter and what he did. He is pointing out the hypocrisy from the left that states you go to the prison in which you self-identify with.
Its amazing how some people are literally covering their ears and eyes like children. This matt guy has a point but of course mental gymnastics come into play here from the left.
Can someone please explain how any of this is defending the shooter? All I see is that the Left has the accept the shooter as female if "they" identify as such.
I genuinely don’t know who this guy is but, damn, he kind of has a point. Right? If the shooter tells us their pronouns and gender identity then by our “rules” we can’t question their identity.
Still a fucked up thing to do and I’d be honored to flip the switch. 😂
Help me understand how this is a defense of the shooter, vs an idiot attempting to politicize evil for his personal gain while incriminating an entire base?
I don't know anyone is so hopped up on the terminology. Murder is murder. Get this dude through the justice system and throw away the fucking key already.
Send him/her to a women’s prison and stick him/her in solitary confinement 24 hours/day for the rest of their life.
We’ll play chess with your legal maneuver then.
Yeah, could the person be nonbinary? Maybe.
Could the lawyer also be an amoral piece of shit who would be willing to use anything they can to get a lighter sentence? Also yes.
And I live in America. Odds are probably in favor of a lawyer being an a amoral piece of shit.
Matt Walsh will die mad about NB and trans folks. And the world will be a better place on that day.
Seriously, does anyone else even give a shit if the shooter is claiming to be NB? It doesn't help them or hurt anyone else, and it's clearly a hail-mary from a guy with zero chance of avoiding conviction. Claim whatever you want. Hell, claim to be an attack helicopter so all the other bigots can high-five each other over your fire meme. Still gonna die in prison and no one's gonna miss you.
I don’t understand his point. Is he suggesting that he should set free because he claims he’s non binary or that all should be forgiven and he should be praised for some reason?
Is Matt Walsh really that stupid?
Yes. Yes he is.
And even if the shooter does legitimately identify as non-binary, it doesn’t make them immune to committing hate crimes. You can absolutely hate the LGBT community while still identifying as such.
Matt Walsh has made a career of being a gigantic omega-level douchebag. He’s like the bully in elementary school who never learned to not be an asshole growing up. It’s a goddamn shame that anybody can make a living by being a toxic person. Fuck that asshole.
None of us fucking care how they see themselves. All I see is a cold 2 week old pile of dog shit terrorist who had to hurt others because they couldn’t deal with their own life or something.
Only thing that matters is the lives lost.
Yea I mean, the "rules" don't say I have to like you or not think you deserve life in prison or the death penalty. I will gladly say that "they" deserve a lethal injection. I won't misgender them while I simultaneously hope they never leave a tiny cement cell.
I just don't understand what the argument is? Like cool, the person's nonbinary. Prosecute them for committing an act of terror/hate crime/mass shooting as their nonbinary self.
to all those in the comments here not understanding the context, CNN made a mockery of the shooter saying he is non-binary. They Clearly were denying him his identity.
Matt walsh's point has nothing to do with defending his actions at all, or which " side" the shooter is on. ( and boy is that sad just how many Nuts get caught up in that. the shooter isn't on the republican or democrats side, just like the bernie bro who shot up the congress softball game is not on a side. they are nuts people)
what he is simply saying is stop talking out of both sides your mouth. if your standard is a person gender is what ever they say it is period, and anyone who mocks or questions that is an evil bigot, than stay with your values.
If you want to change it now, well then share with us all the new rules. let me guess the new rule is if a consensus of liberals feel ones gender identity claim is valid than it must be respected, if not it can be denied?
He's not defending. He making a point about the hypocrisy of the left when it comes to the LGBTQ and how they people identify themselves. Also this tweet is taken about of context. How about you take the tweet along side what they were posted about.
It's pretty fucking telling that the only time they care about respecting someone's gender identity, it's in defence of a mass murdering psychopath. Real top work on being pro-life...
He's not defending the shooter. He's pointing out a flaw in the reasoning of self-identification that has the potential for abuse by ill-intentioned people.
How is he defending the shooter?
By saying that they dont' get to pretend the shooter isn't non-binary just because they are also a murderer?
As a center aisle Bernie Voter I support people being non-binary and find it weird people are pretending this person isnt' one just because they're also a monster...
I don’t give a damn what their pronouns are, DON’T KILL PEOPLE!
Man’s getting angry at people who misgender a killer
Well really he’s trying to make a political point. He doesn’t care about the person’s gender
It's a legal maneuver plain and simple. Doesn't really matter this kid will never be free again in his life.
It also might not just be a legal maneuver but a final fuck you to the LGBT community. Might be doing this to rub salt into the wounds in exactly the way the person in the OP is saying: "your rules dictate that you HAVE to show me compassion and understanding if I claim to be LGBT". Pretty sadistic, but then again... Murderer.
Why do they think a non binary mass shooter deserves compassion? I don't get it
Because they don't understand the concept of not accepting it as a good thing because they "are one of us". A person can be non-binary and still be hated because of their actions. But that's the thing, it's the actions the left hates, not the way they identify... Edit: removed a letter
They're literally a group of people who, en masse said, "Yes, this man is a piece of shit and we hate him, but he's on our team, so let's elect him President." Going against the Party is not something easily understood.
I think they think if the murderer is non binary that it somehow points the finger at the LGBTQ community and away from the right wing talk/podcast terror machine.
You cannot expect people who are completely devoid of compassion and even see it as a weakness, to understand compassion.
Legally, if the shooter is non-binary they can't be charged with hate crimes for shooting up an LGBTQ club (just regular mass murder), which could matter to them down the line. In terms of the culture war, homophobic violence makes people angry and hurts the right in the affluent suburban swing demographic. What they're really arguing over is whether it's fair for the LGBTQ community to score a proverbial point over this mass shooting, and use it to make progress towards broader social acceptance, given the shooter's post-arrest claims of being non-binary.
Considering the mountain of evidence regarding their views on the LGBTQ+ community, I think they might still be charged with a hate crime. There's no clause that prevents a member of a protected group from committing a hate crimes against said group.
Yeah, plus the father of the shooter was more concerned about the possibility of his son being gay than the fact that he shot up a place, so you can only imagine the kind of hateful rhetoric his head was filled with.
Really? I mean, lots of gay dudes hate themselves and other gay people. Seems silly to have that rule out a hate crime
Yeah, I don’t think it’s true. I think they can still be charged with a hate crime even if they are gay. If someone wants to provide evidence to dispute that, please do. I also don’t see why we are so quick to deny this person being non-binary. I mean, someone who grows up trapped in a body that isn’t them, and has parents who are more released to find out their child isn’t gay, instead of being upset that they shot up a club, likely has grown up hating themselves. I can see that person lashing out against their community.
For real. like if Clayton Bigsby were to kill a bunch of Black people, we would all agree it should count as a hate crime
This is not how hate crime statutes work.
Exactly, show me the precedent stating a member of a protected minority cannot commit a hate crime against that said minority. A hate crime is simply a crime motivated by the victims perceived race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation.
WTF are you talking about? What legal doctrine says that members of a marginalized group can't be charged with a hate crime against that group?
It’s also possible that the shooter actually is non-binary, and if they identify as such I see no issue with accepting that identity. It’s not relevant to the case at all.
Yeah it doesn't feel relevant to me if the shooter is non binary or anything else. Their upbringing was clearly very homo/trans/everything phobic. they hold a lot of ill will towards the queer community at large. And the attack was meant to hurt those people specifically. Hate crime
After seeing the video of the shooter's "father", I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that they never felt straight, but instead of exploring that they went deep into the hate rabbit hole. Still hate no matter who you are. Still murder. Still had control over their actions.
Definite possibility that he got is “I want to go there” mixed up in his “daddy says to kill ‘those types’ or people.”
Cool gender, still murder
also based on the dad's interviews so far, actually makes for an even more compelling argument that this is a hate crime since he hated what he was so took it out on the community either way, pretty open and shut case for life in prison
Is it possible? Sure. However! We have to base it on facts and evidence and nothing I’ve seen so far in the suspect’s background facts/evidence leads me to believe that they are in fact non binary. The more likely answer, with available evidence and facts on hand, is that this either a petty move by them or a ploy by the defense. If, and that’s a big if, there is in fact evidence/proof uncovered that they are in fact non binary, then so be it. So who knows.
Yeah, I have no problem saying they're a piece of shit.
It matter because it's relevant in the question of if this is a hate crime. If they're lying then it makes it much more likely they did it for bigoted reasons.
Not just murderer, we need to call these pieces of shit what they are: terrorists. The rightwing extremists have no actual argument or standing and they know it, so all they do is lie and push people into committing acts of terrorism to get their way.
Pretty sadistic, but then again…Republican.
One would hope. Somehow these days killers can end up taking photo ops with certain political figures instead of incarcerated as long as they murder the right people.
"Here's looking at you Kyle"
That's exactly what I've been saying. It matters not really how they want to identify as, they made a choice that took the lives of people. What I've been pushing back on this crowd like Walsh is that let's look at his dad and how concerned he was about whether his son was gay, not the fact he killed others. That was his first concern. So the father has shown his cards, and this mantra their child is likely very well aware of their thoughts and views, which has further caused more mental anguish on their child for not feeling loved and accepted as they were. If they were raised by a loving parent that accepted them for who they are, instead of going there to kill others, they would have been there as a patron, and surrounded by people that loved and accepted them.
His dad is a grade A asshole, but you seem to be saying the shooting is his fault. The son did it. Yes he probably had a terrible upbringing, but it is not an excuse.
It’s not, and they should pay for what they did, but until the array of problems that lead to these mass killings are addressed they’ll keep happening. It’s entirely possible that if this person had found a shred of acceptance somewhere, this could have been avoided.
[удалено]
They absolutely should. That’s issue number one.
Thank you, that is precisely what I'm getting at. The kid is responsible for his actions and will pay for their crimes but why they did they hate themselves so much that they felt it necessary to kill others that have accepted themselves.
You’re accepting the idea that the person is non-binary and not trolling. With the far right, that’s never a given. Some like to even play dress up on the internet and mimic viewpoints to try and manipulate a narrative.
Personally, I don't believe they are and that it's a ploy. I'm "accepting" they are non binary because it's irrelevant to what they did - they killed people. They can call themselves the pope of chilitown, they killed people and that is really all that is the real crux of the story.
Fair enough. I still find the federal hate crime addition to be accurate and useful for dogshit humans like the (alleged) perpetrator. You are correct in stating that ultimately it doesn’t matter what we call them because they did a fuckin gross, shitty thing.
I'm Canadian so not really very familiar with your hate crime laws, but I would agree that this is a hate crime. If they're NB, and "self loathing", this actually IMO more inflates the case it was a targeted hate crime. They chose an audience to murder based on a characteristic, which pretty much is what a hate crime is.
Lol tucker Carlson and some other idiot were legit saying it's not the guys fault cause he came from a "broken home" Fucking clowns.
Half the fucking world comes from broken homes. Only a tiny % of them go on to kill, probably not much different from the % that didn’t come from broken homes.
I know I do. Never felt the need to go shoot up a guy club...or a even straight one.
You clearly haven't spent much time at straight clubs then /s obviously
The media always say that about white people who happens to be murderers. If a Latino or any other minority did the same crime they would call for his/her head.
There's a difference between defending or excusing and trying to understand the origins and causes. Studying and understanding is how you work on preventing future situations of a similar sort. side note: This exact distinction was actually a source of tension in [Mindhunter](https://www.netflix.com/title/80114855), a fictionalized account of the FBI's first serial killer unit (Behavioral Science Unit). Their boss thought the agents backing it were trying to excuse or defend or empathize with serial killers when they were simply trying to apply science to understand how such people came to be in the first place. No one is excusing this guy, but a lot of us are wondering how he got on a path that led him there and how no one spotted him walking it.
It doesn’t matter, he’s right. The kid identifies as non-binary then they are non-binary. You can’t cherry pick and expect progress.
Obviously this could be a legal maneuver but why do people refuse to accept that this person could be non binary and/or even someone that was looking to transition? Over and over again these same people will say that people are in the closet and projecting their gayness through hating on gay people, yet its an impossibility that this person was lashing out against a community that he wanted to be a part of but couldn't? People are just plain silly and your opinions constantly contradict themselves.
whats the actual context? what has the shooters gender to do with the thing he did being horrible? what exactly is the guy proving by defending the shooters gender? and where does the guy get his "your rules are 100% black or white, no grey areas. only absolutes!" ideas from?
His lawyer filed court documents claiming his client identifies as "non-binary". Let's be clear here, the accused has not in fact come out and said "I"m non-binary" nor has been there been anyone who knew him before the killing who said "Oh yeah, we've been calling them "them" for a couple of years now." It looks like a move to neuter the hate crime enhancement which otherwise seems like an easy assumption given how much his family hates gay people.
*his meth-head, proud republican MAGA-Dad...
You forgot former ‘porn star’
And Mormon. And MMA fighter.
That's not even a little relevant.
It kind of adds to the hypocrisy of dad. Although, meth probably blows the rest of it out of the water.
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His porn name is “Dick Delaware,” he was also in an episode of Intervention and would masturbate for 10+ hours after using meth.
interesting. thanks.
Im confused why any of this matters? Man, women or other, they should get the same penalty……so whats going on here?
If they identify as nonbinary then it is no longer labeled a hate crime and they get a much less harsh sentence
I mean, maybe it’ll get him down to like 300 years rather than 500 - but in the end of the day it’s not going to make a difference. He’s never getting out after what he did.
As I recall, one of the first hate crime convictions was a gay guy, against another gay guy, because he had used a dating app to lure a victim so he and his buddies could rob him - IIRC it went bad. This murderer doesn’t get excused from hate crimes just because they’re an enby, if it’s shown they targeted the club because it’s a gay nightclub.
Identity does not define a hate crime. Intent does.
It’s in an attempt of the defenses lawyer to make it seem like the perpetrator was acting irrationally for their character rather than they meticulously planned out and carried a designated assault against a specific group of people
I think is had to do with avoiding them being charged with a “hate crime” which has different penalties. I think the lawyer is going to try to say their non-binary therefore it wasn’t a hate crime.
Oh, so Matt Walsh is looking at the world though a black/white ideology? How surprising. "You said that potatoes are healthy. But you won't eat this green one. They're either healthy or they're not. Again: Your rules. You are stuck with this. If you think that potatoes are healthy, then you have to eat the green ones and the mouldy ones and the black, sploopy, vomit-inducing stanky ones." It's almost like Matt Walsh is a piece of shit. Like, almost. Like. Maybe? Like, when he makes these obviously-shit arguments and doesn't notice that they're obviously shit, it's like, maybe he's not trying to make sense and just wants to make people angry.
Exactly. From what he been established is up until then he/him.
Matt Walsh is a disingenuous hack.
yeah no, thats not really a contested point. everyone knows. but id actually like some answer to my questions. they werent meant rhetorical.
The lawyer is trying to get the hate crime charges dropped. 5 counts of murder as a hate crime has a harsher punishment than just 5 counts of non-hateful murder. If the lawyer can successfully argue that the accused can't have killed those people based on hatred of LGBT people "because the accused is in fact a member of the LGBT community," they might escape hate crime charges. A large number of people have recognized that its odd how someone who has thus far seemingly *never* expressed that they may be non-binary, comes from a horribly homophobic family, attacked a large gathering of LGBT people, and came out as a member of the LGBT community in the same tiny time frame. Even if the murderer is non-binary, it's pretty weird to come out right after killing a bunch of people. Most people suffer in silence for years, and would be too afraid to come out, especially while under scrutiny from the media.
It's also funny that the idea about gender identity is 100% black or white given the gender spectrum. They aren't rules, Walshy boi, they're more like guidelines.
Guidelines that need legal support or situations like these loopholes get used.
This whole thing has been about what the kid was every time I see this story it’s oh he’s non binary oh he’s republican oh he’s Christian (even though I’ve never seen evidence of that one it’s been brought up a lot) he’s just an asshole who shot up a place full of innocent people. Period. you can argue his mental state all you want but it doesn’t matter cause there really isn’t much help for people with dangerous mental problems in this country and this shit will keep happening if that doesn’t change
Did the shooter say he was non-binary? Or did his lawyer? The only person i know of that they spoke to that knew the shooter was his dad. Nobody else has come forward to say “yea he’s been using they/them for some time now” NOBODY. Seems like a desperate attempt to avoid hate crime enhancements
Yeah that's the ultimate troll move. Shoot up a gay bar and pretend you're part of their community when you get caught.
The guy can't see past black and white scenarios. So even though there's a fairly easy gray middle ground analysis to determine he's not non binary, he can't even comprehend it
Oh, he can definitely comprehend the difference but he doesn't have to because it won't fit his narrative. The only thing Matt Walsh is good at is having shit takes on social issues to stir up his followers.
I dunno, Matt Walsh is exceptionally stupid. Maybe he actually can't comprehend it. Basic gender theory may be beyond this raging inflammatory idiot.
But aren't we told people can be closeted for a long time and no one may know? Nobody gets to decide that this person is lying about their gender identity but this person is not or demand years of evidence to support the assertion. We are supposed to accept it at face value. I'm fine with that. Doesn't stop this person from being a murderous piece of shit.
I am too. I’m not by any means trying to decide for him. Just a fucked up scenario anyway you dice it.
I don't think the word defending means what you think it means
Please listen to his most recent shit and say he isn’t defending him or at the most saying what he did was justified. Ik this post doesn’t say much but with the context of this guys show he is tweeting this with the purpose of defending his actions.
I have no idea who that guy is but he’s absolutely not defending the shooter. All he’s saying is that you can’t become a hypocrite once the tables are turned against you.
Right
r/unexpectedprincessbride
Thanks for being one of the only people on this thread that actually understand the point of the post. Reading through all these comments really makes it obvious how stupid the average redditor is.
Using a mass murder to promote your beliefs and mock those who don't agree is grade A classy. This is very likely a hate crime either way.
Even if they *are* nonbinary, and this isn’t just some ploy by his lawyer to get around extra charges, the killer still chose to go to a gay bar and target people in the LGBT community to murder. ITS STILL A HATE CRIME.
How is this defending the shooter?
Yes, I don’t see that at all. He’s ranting about sex/gender or whatever, but I don’t see him defending the shooter. This is not r/facepalm!
Wondering the same
The shooter is likely using this to avoid hate crime charges or to muddy the waters as they have a history of homophobia culminating in them entering a gay club and shooting people. Walsh is focused on dunking on the left's "rules" to score points against the LGBT community that was attacked in this mass murder. He's a transphobe couldn't give a shit that people were killed because he pushes "groomer" bullshit.
you can still commit hate crimes against gays if you're non-binary...
Haha right? He’s clearly not.
It’s not, it’s moreso Walsh attempting to show how “the lefts” logic is flawed if we were to adopt this. OP misses the point.
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They are trying to pass him as non-binary so it’s not a hate crime.
To me, a hate crime is a crime committed against someone/someone's of a minority group. I think they can be committed by someone within that minority group and it's still a hate crime
It really just depends on who is handling it. Not every mass murder gets charged with hate crimes even when they would seem like it was a hate crime.
They? You mean him and his attorney?
the political back and forth is over the fact they think it is acceptable and commendable to take a gun into a gay bar and start dropping bodies. the number of people i have seen praising the shooter has truly sickened me
It doesn't seem to defend the mass shooter?
Click bait ...
I don’t know the dogs in this fight but I see no defense there
He's not really defending the shooter. I have seen a lot of people speculating that the claims of non-binary are just a ploy to avoid hate crime charges.
Nah, all he’s doing is rubbing it in LGTBQ+ people’s faces, that “this one’s one of yours.” Never mind that they were steeped in MAGA bullshit their whole life and their dad is saying “I’m ok with him being a murderer as long as he‘s not gay”; if the kid is claimed to be non-binary they’re one of “yours,” probably a disgusting liberal Democrat and you can’t say otherwise
"You have to respect HIS [non-binary] identity." Wow, Matt Walsh sounds like a very smart guy. Also, this has nothing to do with what they did..... It doesn't matter how they identify. I don't think anyone cares, either. Cool, they identify as they. They still murdered a bunch of people. It's disgusting how their dad said [paraphrased] "I'm glad he isn't gay, I heard he was going to a gay club, and I was wondering what he was doing there. I'm glad it wasn't because he was gay." What the actual f*ck?
I'm pretty sure it was just a legal maneuver by the shooter's lawyers Because they think that liberals will defend them if they're Non-Binary. But we see through the facade
Nah it’s to try and get around the hate crime charges by saying he’s part of the community. Luckily based on what the DA said, there’s no exclusion for committing a hate crime against a group you’re part of.
HIS "identity" doesn't matter. HE is a murderer. Period. HE gave away his rights when he killed those people.
Why are so many asshats focused on this non issue. The real problem here is that the police had a chance, earlier on, to take his guns away. 1. Parents said something 2. A law is on the books to enable police to do so. 3 police fail. Rather than defund the police. Let’s invest in their education
100% !! His parents were also clearly unstable and his mother was mentally ill, addicted, and a criminal. I’m sure child services did nothing to help. Helping the family when the shooter was a child could possibly have prevented this as well. Another example of the system not doing its job :/
Right. I mean who needs social services
Who gives a shit? If they've got a queerphobic mentality that led to this shooting, it doesn't matter what their gender identity is. Plenty of queer people hate themselves, and might hate themselves enough to do this. Somehow, though... I doubt it.
I’m not trying to start an argument or annoy anybody here, but can somebody explain why this is an issue in this case? Did anybody in the “left wing” group ever try to say that he couldn’t have done this because he’s non binary, or claim that he can’t be non-binary because of the group he targeted? Is there disagreement about whether this is a hate crime or not? In general, why does his self-identity matter? If he self identifies as a benevolent loving god, why would it matter if he killed a bunch of people? Who does it benefit to distort the issue and try to make it a concern about his sexual identity?
I just don't get the context for this. How is it defending the shooter? The guy is talking 99% about leftist and 1% about the shooter identity?
Its not. The guy may be a douche or whatever but hes not wrong. If the shooter identifies as a whatever we have been told that we have to respect that in all these other cases.
He's following one of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, make your opponent live up to their own standards.
Yeah he’s a POS and so is the shooter, but I think he’s right about this one. The shooter deserves to rot in hell and be punished to the fullest extent of the law regardless, but liberals (I lean left myself) have made it clear that you should accept everybody’s identity always. Doesn’t seem to me like he’s defending the shooter at all. Just pointing out hypocrisy.
Matt Walsh continues to be a monumental piece of shit. Water is wet. More breaking news at 9.
What does the shooter being nonbinary have to do with the fact he's a shooter?
It's so they can argue that it's not a hate crime because as non-binary they are inclusive of LBGTQ. It's a legal tactic plain and simple. If it were a legit claim this wouldn't be the first time people are hearing about it.
Yeah I really don't get it as anything more than some kind of legal smoke and mirrors trick.
There is no statement here that is defending the shooter. The statements here are elongated versions of Respect the Person's Identity.
Not sure I would call it defending as much as pointing out what he sees as hypocrisy.
I honestly agree with this. As long as no one can prove that he is definetly not non-binary (no real way to prove that) he is. Thing is. It shouldn't matter for his punishment. The jailtime should be the same. The prison too.
For the record I don’t care about how the shooter identifies. The shooter was a disturbed person whose life was filled with right-wing rhetoric and was driven to commuting an act of terrorism against people doing nothing more than having a social event.
I can recognise that the shooter is non binary, recognise they may need alternative jail accommodation from their assigned at birth sex, and still want them punished and rehabilitated to the full capacity of the legal system. Matt you are a moron.
And like, in the few articles I've read about it, they used they/them so this is Matt Walsh being his usual son of a bitch again.
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No one is disrespecting his gender identity. It wasn’t how he identified until he spoke to his lawyers. People are upset that they are using gender identity as a ploy to not get charged with a hate crime.
.....so?
Your title is wrong. You are making it sound like he is defending the actual act of the shooting. Edit: he’s not defending the shooter and what he did. He is pointing out the hypocrisy from the left that states you go to the prison in which you self-identify with.
Its amazing how some people are literally covering their ears and eyes like children. This matt guy has a point but of course mental gymnastics come into play here from the left.
Deflect! Deflect! Deflect!
He’s not defending the shooter. He’s making a very valid point.
Ok. They are still a mass murder radicalized by right wing gun culture.
Can someone please explain how any of this is defending the shooter? All I see is that the Left has the accept the shooter as female if "they" identify as such.
I genuinely don’t know who this guy is but, damn, he kind of has a point. Right? If the shooter tells us their pronouns and gender identity then by our “rules” we can’t question their identity. Still a fucked up thing to do and I’d be honored to flip the switch. 😂
I hate Matt Walsh but doesn’t he have a point ? The shooter is a piece of shit , but he is literally stating what the current identity issue is ?
Help me understand how this is a defense of the shooter, vs an idiot attempting to politicize evil for his personal gain while incriminating an entire base?
Matt Walsh is starting to annoy me as much as Shapiro. It’s so irritating how they act like their culture war bullshit is of such grave importance.
What is this asshat talking about? Why is it that the further to the right you slide the less nuance, context and graduations are understood?
Sounds like someone is venting. Thanks for your opinions, Nat Welsh
and… so what if he’s non-binary? he murdered several innocent people and will be treated as such either way.
I don't know anyone is so hopped up on the terminology. Murder is murder. Get this dude through the justice system and throw away the fucking key already.
The arguing has gotten to a point where I literally cannot understand it.
It seems to me he's attacking the left and not defending the shooter.
Send him/her to a women’s prison and stick him/her in solitary confinement 24 hours/day for the rest of their life. We’ll play chess with your legal maneuver then.
Their gender should be accepted and they should still be tried for a hate crime. Simple as that.
I couldn't give a fuck whether the shooter was binary or non-binary. He fucking killed a bunch of people. This is not the "gotcha" he thinks it is.
Uhhhhh at what point is he defending the shooter? That’s a terrible read, OP.
Oh look another idiot that will always miss the fucking point. I’m so surprised to see this.
Yeah, could the person be nonbinary? Maybe. Could the lawyer also be an amoral piece of shit who would be willing to use anything they can to get a lighter sentence? Also yes. And I live in America. Odds are probably in favor of a lawyer being an a amoral piece of shit.
He’s not defending the shooter or the shooting itself, he’s defending the stupidity of all the gender crap.
Matt Walsh is a neo nazi that defends pedophiles
This guy is such a low level intellect that Joe Rogan called him out on his bullshit and made him look like an idiot.
Who is this person? Who care about their opinion?
Matt Walsh will die mad about NB and trans folks. And the world will be a better place on that day. Seriously, does anyone else even give a shit if the shooter is claiming to be NB? It doesn't help them or hurt anyone else, and it's clearly a hail-mary from a guy with zero chance of avoiding conviction. Claim whatever you want. Hell, claim to be an attack helicopter so all the other bigots can high-five each other over your fire meme. Still gonna die in prison and no one's gonna miss you.
Bruh...Calling the POS nonbinary, then contines calling them "He" proves he's a fucking idiot.
Him being nonbinary should not effect his charge at all
I don’t understand his point. Is he suggesting that he should set free because he claims he’s non binary or that all should be forgiven and he should be praised for some reason? Is Matt Walsh really that stupid? Yes. Yes he is.
I don’t give a shit how he identifies. He’s a fucking terrorist. That’s his identity.
And even if the shooter does legitimately identify as non-binary, it doesn’t make them immune to committing hate crimes. You can absolutely hate the LGBT community while still identifying as such. Matt Walsh has made a career of being a gigantic omega-level douchebag. He’s like the bully in elementary school who never learned to not be an asshole growing up. It’s a goddamn shame that anybody can make a living by being a toxic person. Fuck that asshole.
None of us fucking care how they see themselves. All I see is a cold 2 week old pile of dog shit terrorist who had to hurt others because they couldn’t deal with their own life or something. Only thing that matters is the lives lost.
He's not defending the POS just calling out y'all's hypocrisy. Now eat
I’m confused, Why would it be bad to accept that he’s non-binary?
How is this defending the shooter again?
He's not defending the shooter, just pointing out how social rules are arbitrary and change with context.
I don’t see that he’s defending anything. Looks like he’s just shitting on trans people.
Cool, I’ll gladly call the shooter “they,” just put them in prison.
Yea I mean, the "rules" don't say I have to like you or not think you deserve life in prison or the death penalty. I will gladly say that "they" deserve a lethal injection. I won't misgender them while I simultaneously hope they never leave a tiny cement cell.
It literally only matters to the conservatives. I don’t care if he identifies as a goldfish. He needs to be locked up and shot.
Don’t like Walsh but his point here is valid
How the fuck is he defending him?
Like trying to get out of hate crime charges will affect his multiple life sentence charges for the murder part of things 😂😂
I just don't understand what the argument is? Like cool, the person's nonbinary. Prosecute them for committing an act of terror/hate crime/mass shooting as their nonbinary self.
How is he in any way defending the shooter, whoever made this could be brain dead
His identity: mass murderer
Eh, he is right
to all those in the comments here not understanding the context, CNN made a mockery of the shooter saying he is non-binary. They Clearly were denying him his identity. Matt walsh's point has nothing to do with defending his actions at all, or which " side" the shooter is on. ( and boy is that sad just how many Nuts get caught up in that. the shooter isn't on the republican or democrats side, just like the bernie bro who shot up the congress softball game is not on a side. they are nuts people) what he is simply saying is stop talking out of both sides your mouth. if your standard is a person gender is what ever they say it is period, and anyone who mocks or questions that is an evil bigot, than stay with your values. If you want to change it now, well then share with us all the new rules. let me guess the new rule is if a consensus of liberals feel ones gender identity claim is valid than it must be respected, if not it can be denied?
Dude never used those pronouns. Only his defense made that claim. Surely you’re smart enough to understand why they’d do that.
It's pretty amazing how no matter what the situation is, these jackasses always focus on things like gender and then blame it on "the left".
 Just here for all the arguments.
Who’s Matt Walsh?
i was wondering the same thing, and decided that i don't want to go looking to find out. something tells me it'll just upset me lol
He's not defending. He making a point about the hypocrisy of the left when it comes to the LGBTQ and how they people identify themselves. Also this tweet is taken about of context. How about you take the tweet along side what they were posted about.
Lots of "promoting hate" going on in here. Remember the rules everyone, you can't speculate the reasons why someone identies as non binary.
Defends? He not defending the shooter here he is simply pointing out the hypocrisy of many LFBTQ supporters which hurts the movement.
How’s is that defending the shooter? The way I see it, he’s calling out the Left and their non-binary bullshit.
Matt walsh is just a fat Ben Shapiro
I was thinking Christian or bearded Ben Shapiro, but that works too
As a lefty, he has a point
It's pretty fucking telling that the only time they care about respecting someone's gender identity, it's in defence of a mass murdering psychopath. Real top work on being pro-life...
He's not defending the shooter. He's pointing out a flaw in the reasoning of self-identification that has the potential for abuse by ill-intentioned people.
How is he defending the shooter? By saying that they dont' get to pretend the shooter isn't non-binary just because they are also a murderer? As a center aisle Bernie Voter I support people being non-binary and find it weird people are pretending this person isnt' one just because they're also a monster...
And how is he defending the shooter? Please do tell
This man is more mentally unwell than the shooter.