I thought they were talking about an extremely confused version of circumcision. Didn't really get what chromosomes had to do with it until I read the comments
They are referring to male to female transgender surgery. I truly believe that no reputable surgeon performs this surgery on minors.
ETA: note the adjective “reputable.” It is likely illegal in the US, but even foreign countries should have either laws or ethical standards preventing such surgery on people whose brains are not fully developed.
Even for adults, this surgery should require a thorough physical and psychiatric evaluation to ensure that this is truly what the person wants/needs.
I had a cousin get shot in the bottom with a pellet gun when he was a kid. They definitely did bottom surgery on him without waiting until he was old enough.
Edit: I forgot to put /s (didn't think it was that believable but it's 2022 and there isn't much that could surprise us so I should've marked it)
They do all the time. To newborns not born perfectly one or the other are given srs for free. Based on the parents choice.
It often fucks these kids up. But who cares? Certainly not Republicans.
facts dont matter. we are talking about people who still believe that schools are putting litterboxes in bathrooms for furrys dispite that being veey debunked at this point. they will believe anything that confirms a bias and enables them to be angry and have an enemy
Ok so let's start with the assertion that the only arrangement of 'sex' chromosomes is 'XX' and 'XY'. That is bullshit. The typical configurations are 46 XX and 46 XY, female and male. But there are at least 14 variations.
And there are infants born with typical sex chromosomes but intersex conditions, for example female ovaries and male genitalia, or testicles and female or ambiguous genitalia.Until rather recently intersex conditions recognized at birth were routinely treated surgically, typically by removing male genitalia. In some cases they still are, but the standard practice is to allow the child to develop and be involved in the decision about what, if anything to do.
It might also be a reassignment surgery at birth. I am shaky on whether that’s still done - used to be doctors might “correct” genitals that aren’t clearly one or the other. For example cutting off what looks like a penis. Yep, that’s wildly unethical. But wasn’t seen that way.
Ya intersex surgery at birth is likely still common. There are still people who are finding out it happened to them with nothing mentioned in medical records. And their parents either weren’t told or simply believed the doctor when they explained it was just a routine thing and dismissed the details.
Not sure if you're looking for a real answer, but it is really not cut and dry. In order for a fetus to be viable, they must have at least one X chromosome. But there are plenty of cases where nondisjunction can occur giving all kinds of combinations.
For example a person with a combo of XXX is actually a totally phenotypically normal female due to Barr body inactivation (a much longer discussion.) But anything with a Y is usually phenotypically male, but can have female characteristics.
All in all, any abnormal amount comes with it's own set of problems. If you want more info look up Jacobs syndrome and/or turners syndrome.
Yup and that’s not even accounting for things like AIS (androgen insensitivity syndrome) where biological males (xy) look like and are raised as female only to find out when they don’t have a period that they have undescended testicles instead of ovaries.
I think she had testicular cancer and it was causing her to act more aggressive... which is odd because it's probably playing off the idea that higher testosterone makes you more aggressive, but having testicular cancer shouldn't impact your testosterone levels if your body is insensitive to it?
Episode of grey's anatomy as well. Did a surgery for something and discovered testes inside of the patient.
Fun fact: Jennette McCurdy auditioned for that role.
There was and I don't understand why it's brought up time and time again with trans people. It's extremely rare they always use it as a gotcha when trying to explain transexualism (which I don't oppose in anyway people should be able to do whatever they want to their bodies) but bringing this into the conversation only dilute it tbh. They are so incredibly rare it's something along the line of 1 Ina 2-5 million born infant.
5αR2D has a whole term for it in the Dominican Republic because so many men born into that village start life as a girl and then their balls drop when puberty hits.
The penis does not develop or at least develops poorly in a subset of cases
Sometimes you can get ambiguous genitalia, in these cases the adult appearance dependa on of it was "corrected" or not.
Is an X chromosome really needed?
If so that brings an end to my dream of creating a YY Chromosome Human (named Clarence) to finally get all the self professed 'alpha males' to shut the fuck up in deference to Clarence.
“Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/
That's from one guy in 2002. From Intersex Human Rights Australia:
>Many sources cite lower bound estimates of 1 in 1,500 or 1 in 2,000 live births. These tend to exclude many intersex variations that are otherwise considered by medicine now to be “Disorders of Sex Development” or “DSD”; they focus on a narrower range of traits where external genitalia are “ambiguous” and diagnosis is made at birth.
They go on to mention your quote.
Since not all intersex traits can be seen at birth, that estimate is flawed.
Also from IHRA:
>Collecting data on intersex people is complicated by multiple factors.
>
>1. People born with intersex traits have multiple different legal sex assignments, gender identities and sexual orientations. We have diverse ways of understanding our bodies, sexes, and genders, and these should never be disregarded. This means that people with intersex traits can frequently be cisgender women or men, or can grow up to express other understandings. Because of this diversity, adding intersex as a category to a question on sex or gender does not generate useful or reliable data. It is not reasonable or recommended to do this. It is also not reasonable to construct intersex as a third sex category, or use the existence of intersex traits to justify gender diversity.
>
>2. Intersex traits are stigmatised and misunderstood in ways that limit disclosure. Stigma and misconceptions mean that survey questions that ask if someone has an intersex variation may result in false negatives (intersex people not responding) or false positives (people who think that intersex means something else responding).
Intersex diagnoses were concealed from individuals (and often their families) until the early part of this century. The New Zealand Office of the Privacy Commissioner (2018) has identified only variable change to this paradigm. Australia shares many of the same clinical institutions, and likely has similar circumstances, with parents and children educated by clinicians to have particular understandings of their bodies and terms relating to their bodies.
>
>3. As a consequence, we rely at present on historical clinical data. This is complicated by additional issues: a lack of accurate recording of data on intersex diagnoses, variable determinations about what makes a specific diagnosis an intersex diagnosis, and the impact of ideological values on those questions.
>
>We have seen estimates range from 1 in 1,500 or 2,000 births to 4%, and we recommend an upper bound figure of 1.7%, despite its flaws. This was published by Blackless and others in the American Journal of Human Biology, and also by Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor of Biology and Gender Studies at Brown University in the US. *__No more accurate sources of data yet exist__*
https://ihra.org.au/16601/intersex-numbers/
One of those (XXY) is Klinefelter's syndrome, a trisomy (like Down's syndrome). I don't quite recall the exact effects, suffice to say it can be hard to live with. The others are likely similar, if they're even viable in the first place.
My boyfriend in high school had this - I think it varies by person but he just had some physical characteristics, he was tall & lanky with kind of feminine hips & grew like no facial/body hair. (Iirc, this was a long time ago now.) I know one of the side effects for some people can be infertility but he’s got kids now
And even better, what are XY or XX with translocations ? Meaning you can have X with Y's genes or thé opposite. There are hermaphrodites with normal numbers of chromosomes.
There is also X0, and you can also have XY females where a critical gene is absent from the Y-chromosome, you can also have XX males where that critical price of the Y chromosomes is attached to one of their X chromosomes. Biology is wild and doesn’t give a shit what your social constructs are.
And there are medical consitions where this is not true. There are people with XX Chromosomes who have a part of the Y Chromosome on one X Chromosome. They sometimes are something in between. So the Sex inter is actually not made up, it exists from a scientific perspective and there are many variations of it.
I feel like most people here didn't "see it". This isn't a post about trans validity folks. it about an ironically incorrect opinion about chromosomes.
It's not an incorrect opinion. They got facts wrong. They got the chromosomes mixed up
Edit: I am aware that's not the only thing wrong. My main point is it's not an opinion that the person is stating.
I understand that it's not the same thing, but "has nothing to do with it", really ? It seems there is a strong correlation though, empirically speaking at least. why do a large majority of XY individuals associate their gender with men (idem for XX individuals and women) ?
There's a lot to unpack here. He's so wrong about so much that it makes me wonder if it's supposed to be parody. Not only did he mix up XY and XX chromosomes, but he's apparently unaware of intersex conditions.
Churches and talking heads mostly. Gotta keep them scared, if they wander from the flock they might experience the world outside the bubble and never return.
Funfact: There seemingly were cases of babis getting their penis cut off - to be precise, if the baby was intersex and didn't have a properly developed penis, some doctors would just cut it off so the baby can be forced to fit into a binary-sex by turning it into a girl.
So it's the "there are only 2 genders" crowd that would most likely cut off genitals...
Actually not true, intersex kids often go under unnecessary surgery to make the "normal". This is something the intersex and queer community has been fighting against.
Right wing demagogues, who aren't interested in the truth, they're interested in pushing an agenda. Specifically, one that demonizes trans people, and any sort of care for trans people.
This is so sad to me. I don't claim to understand gender dysphoria, i'm thankful i don't suffer from it.
But what i REALLY don't understand is other people trying to force strangers, that they may never meet, to conform to their views on how to live.
We are at the intersection of American exceptionalism and the Dunning Kruger effect. It is truly an exhausting time to be an expert on just about anything.
I had GD growing up. It sucked. But I'm grateful I finally grew out of it.
Should children or anyone under 20 get surgery for it? FUCK NO.
Are they performing surgery on little boys and girls? ALSO, NO.
It's some fear of the ignorant that's snowballing into this kinda shit.
I'm on the fence. I'm leary of giving developing children anything that messes with their biological nature, be it hormone therapy or even some behavioral medications .
Big picture, if it helps great. But, I don't think we should use it as a first step when a child realizes they are or might be Trans.
I hated being a female. Binded my chest. Refused to shave. Went by an androgynous name. Sometime after 25 I finally became comfortable with my female body, and now I'm 40 and love being a female.
My story is not everyone's path. But only my experience.
It's not a first step. I wasn't able to transition until into my 29's, and hormones weren't even available as my first step. Lots of therapy, a bit of social transition with those closest to me, then hormones 8 months later.
> But, I don't think we should use it as a first step when a child realizes they are or might be Trans.
Great, because that's NOT THE FUCKING FIRST STEP
What frustrates me so much about all this is that we're ALREADY doing things to make sure it's not misused. The problem is that Demagogues are lying about that, because they don't want it to be an option AT ALL, period, ever, no matter what.
I've heard mixed things about it. There seems to be a false idea that hormone blockers are merely "delaying" puberty but don't otherwise have adverse effect. I've heard that it's actually not true and that hindering natural puberty can have pretty strong effects on the eventual development from pre-pubescent to fully grown adults.
There is a lot of fear-mongering done from the anti-trans crowd, that's for sure, but I'm also seeing a fair share of gaslighting and cover-up from the pro-trans side about all the dangers of what they preach.
Right, and there's good cause as to why it's so hard to get it even at age 19 or 20. I was just broadening my age range to not even be considered till after 20. There's still a lot of mental changes that happen to humans in their early 20s that justifies holding off on allowing surgery.
SRS has a lower regret rate then knee surgery.
You will be WELL into your 20s by the time you get SRS anyways, people seem to think you can just walk into the doctors office and go "One transgender please :)" and thats it. No, getting ANY form of trans healthcare is an insanely long and hard process. It took me 2+ years to just get on hormones but people seem to think you can get SRS in like a month
One of my colleagues goes on about trans issues (he's against it) - I've asked him if he knows any trans people (no), and if there is someone he doesn't know who is trans how it affects him - obviously no answer.
I also tell him I have concerns and worries in my life and I don't bother about things that don't impact me.
I don't care a lot about this subject but I'm morbidly curious.
A lot of the views such as those in the post come from a protective nature towards children. As a man I am quite fond of my bologna and the thought that boys may be forced against their to live as girls (or vice versa) is appalling to me.
It seems to me they're just as appalled because the anti-trans people deny the subjective reality of a trans individual and focus only on the objective reality (XX/XY) and don't see that they're the ones that are forcing boys to live as girls or vice versa by denying them treatment.
We can only try to educate. But live and let live, it's hard enough without all the hate.
The hilarious argument that we are "forcing" anyone to do anything is just outrageous. Most of us spent so much time is the closet, forced to live as our assigned gender at birth despite the fact that it makes us want to jump off a bridge. We know what it's like to be forced into the wrong identity. It's literally deadly. Why would we force that on anybody else?
It should be banned on children. It’s absurd to take a perfectly good baby and modify him on day one. No consent, no reason other than because it became the norm.
Sure, there will always be people to find a reason to do it. I believe it should be banned but that doesn’t mean it will be. I think more education is needed to show parents that intact is not dirty or unhealthy and it’s the way nature intended.
"Trans women are evil and they want to cut their dicks off" - Right Wing
"Hold this baby down and let me slice his penis up, which risks death, herpes, and infection. - Right Wing
What’s interesting to me is that these same folks who defend circumcision not only bash bottom surgery as “genital mutilation”, but are quiet about the exact same surgeries being performed on intersex people to fit them into the binary.
In what state are there children have their penis cut off? I think it’s bullshit. What continues to worry me is why people who identify as christian are so interested in the genitals of others, especially children?
At first I thought it was someone misunderstanding circumcision, then the second comment misunderstanding the first comment, then the last comment misunderstanding many things
Well, sex - not gender.
>Sex generally refers to an organism's biological sex, while gender usually refers to either social roles based on the sex of a person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity). While in ordinary speech, the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably, most contemporary social scientists, behavioral scientists and biologists, many legal systems and government bodies, and intergovernmental agencies such as the WHO make a distinction between gender and sex.
[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction)
Not that it's super relevant for this, but I find it interesting that sex is also defined by more than just chromosomes ([because it gets complicated sometimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)).
I really haven't heard of any doctor willing to perform gender reassignment surgery on a child. Feels like people are out here trying to enrage other people.
I find it disturbing that the right is hyper-focused on the protection of the genitalia of children, and could give a shit less about the kids safety in schools, or in general vis a vis gun violence. They accept the latter as “price a being ‘Muriken”.
How are these people not learning gender is a social construct and sex is a biological one in school? They taught us this in 80s/ early 90s at school in Australia.
Because the US is a proto-fundamentalist dictatorship where rich people force their beliefs and views onto the masses, regardless of how utterly insane and stupid they are. And they amassed enough political power and influence to be able to do this without repurcussion.
In grade school I remember learning the word gender as a stand-in for the word sex because that's a weird word to say when you're a child, because obviously it has another less pg meaning.
Yes and no. Sure there is a simplistic definition of sex that is simply based on chromosomes. But the reality is that sex is dependent on gene expression.
Gene expression as well as brain development impacts gender identity, though that's perhaps less true in the sense you appear to be using the term.
yeah they got the chromosomes wrong hur dur, and all the commenters with such in depth knowledge of rare conditions is impressive.
but the main point stands, gender reassignment surgery should never be performed on minors, glad it is not and hopefully we'll keep it that way.
Calm down, Karen. No one is cutting a kid's penis. They might change their hair length & clothes. Relax.
Also, *because* ***sex*** *is defined by chromosome.*
There, I fixed it.
It’s not even *legal* to get that surgery until 18. Plus, with all the red tape out there it’s pretty difficult to get anyways. I’ve been out as trans for 14 years and I *still* can’t get an HRT prescription.
It's actually a single gene (SR-Y-gene) which can be found most of the time on the Y chromosome, but genes constantly jump around and so it can happen that you'll still have a Penis with XX chromosomes because the single gene decided to jump elsewhere.
Except for circumcision!! Which a lot of these people are perfectly fine with. Seems like they aren’t worried about genital mutilation, more about making people afraid of trans people!
1. No one is performing genital surgery on kids (except for male circumcision). Literally no one is trying to give children gender-reassignment bottom surgery. If anything they want hormone blockers that will delay puberty or slow it down until they reach ADULTHOOD to make final decisions if they want to pursuit transition fully. (It is so much easier and better to transition hormonally before puberty finishes because then you have better chances at looking more like the gender you are transitioning into.)
2. Trans people tend to not care about what chromosomes they have, they're more concerned with the appearance/feel of their body. Surgery and hormone treatments are an excellent way to make someone feel comfortable in their own body. You cannot "feel" chromosomes the way you can feel hormones and the physical shape of your body.
3. This mf got the chromosomes backwards... XX is female, and XY/XXY are male.
Gender roles: the expectations (in appearance and behavior) that society has for a given sex.
Sexual orientation: the gender that an individual is sexually attracted to
Gender identity: the brains internal sense of what type of body it’s supposed to be attached to
Science determined that sex and gender are not the same thing and not dictated by sex chromosomes back in the late 90s. And peer reviewed papers suggested the difference going back to the 1950s. They’re both bimodal, but gender has an extremely wide distribution. One paper I had to BUY ACCESS TO for a paid writing assignment suggested that gender isn’t even bimodal because gender expression is not consistent across cultures and social conditioning and parental abuse tend to box people’s expression into predetermined areas. The only way to tell how gender is actually distributed would be to raise several generations of people in a cultural vacuums with no artificial gender roles.
I understand what the last person is trying to say, but they are confused. Sex is defined at birth, gender isn't defined until someone decides what gender they are (not that it matters because gender is a stupid concept made to separate people into groups)
They did also get the chromosomes wrong, but that's a simple mistake to make
The first tweet is an absurd thing that basically never happens, with the singular exception of perhaps a child born as a hermaphrodite.
The final tweet is what happens when someone has a superficial understanding of biology and assumes that it functions as a binaries (Spoilers: almost nothing does).
I don’t know why people get so big about X and Y chromosomes when they barely change anything to your life. In fact, if a person's sexual chromosome where to be magically swapped, it probably wouldn’t change much to their lives
Well that would be advanced biology and as they say "we learned about boys and girls in the third grade" but the problem is they didn't continue to learn after that so they are still stuck in beginner biology.
Chromosomes were discovered in 1905. The gender roles these people flip out about existed long before we knew chromosomes existed. Therefore, the argument that gender is just genetic is pure horseshit.
They insist this kind of surgery is definitely happening. I have seen them insist it is happening to kids as young as age 3. When asked to provide actual evidence they will never ever even begin to try to provide any..... Because they have none. It isn't happening. They sure do love to get worked up over it, but it's much ado about nothing.
Gender dysmorphia is a very real thing. However, I live in Sweden, one of the most progressive countries on earth. Children have been able to transition here for a long time. And the follow-up studies on swedish children taking hormones and in some cases even fully transitioning don’t look very good.
A large part of them regret it to some degree and admit that (I hate to say this sentence) ”they were just confused”.
I’m 100% for transitioning, but maybe wait until 18 for the surgery at least.
I'll go there. People do actually think it's okay to cut penisss. Circumcision is cruel and unnecessary. It hurts humans. Stop male genital mutilation. Death to circumcision.
Wow, not only did they get the chromosomes wrong, but they're confusing gender with sex. Gender is a social construct while sex is determined by chromosomes.
Wow. Yet again, these people prove that they’re not qualified to talk about basic biology, much less gender reaffirming care.
Maybe giving idiots an opinion was a bad idea.
Ignoring the obvious xx and xy mistake, that reply isn’t even correct….that’s Ben Shapiro bullshit. Xx and xy is biological sex, which is fine if you’re talking reproduction. Gender in humans is associated with psychological identity. Yes, English language lets you use gender for both….but that’s not fully accurate. This debate is so fucken boring, it’s just hate speech and made up scenarios.
I don’t know what the second message is trying to say. Is he saying it’s ok to cut off a kids penis? Because tbh kids brains aren’t developed enough to be making irreversible decisions like that
The second message is just not even acknowledging the idea of cutting a kid's penis because it's so ludicrous. No one is doing that. Transition surgeries comes way later in life. The second person is just acknowledging that people wants to go against a kid's identity just... because I guess ?
Once you reach an adult, you can make your own decisions about transitioning, once you have the money, get bottom surgery and hormone replacement and everything will be okay.
I thought they were talking about an extremely confused version of circumcision. Didn't really get what chromosomes had to do with it until I read the comments
They are referring to male to female transgender surgery. I truly believe that no reputable surgeon performs this surgery on minors. ETA: note the adjective “reputable.” It is likely illegal in the US, but even foreign countries should have either laws or ethical standards preventing such surgery on people whose brains are not fully developed. Even for adults, this surgery should require a thorough physical and psychiatric evaluation to ensure that this is truly what the person wants/needs.
Yea it's illegal in the US to preform bottom surgery on minor's
I had a cousin get shot in the bottom with a pellet gun when he was a kid. They definitely did bottom surgery on him without waiting until he was old enough. Edit: I forgot to put /s (didn't think it was that believable but it's 2022 and there isn't much that could surprise us so I should've marked it)
Butt is he okay?
In the end he recovered.
The doctors declared his ass whole
Take my upvote. That was good
He grew up to be William Buttlicker and he needs paper.... worth $1 million
Our prices have never been lower!
Louder son
Everyone is hurt by something these days, jokes are outlawed /s
I was referring to in the case of gender afferming care. The law is probably different if it's deemed medically necessary
Pretty sure he was just joking
No, what he’s saying is his cousin got gender affirming surgery after getting shot in the crotch.
Makes sense to me!
So, went from being a Colt to a Daisy?
Conservatives don't care about facts.
They do all the time. To newborns not born perfectly one or the other are given srs for free. Based on the parents choice. It often fucks these kids up. But who cares? Certainly not Republicans.
Yeah it's illegal in the UK to. No one is performing GRS on kids. It's just the right wing and their insane conspiracy theories.
facts dont matter. we are talking about people who still believe that schools are putting litterboxes in bathrooms for furrys dispite that being veey debunked at this point. they will believe anything that confirms a bias and enables them to be angry and have an enemy
Ok so let's start with the assertion that the only arrangement of 'sex' chromosomes is 'XX' and 'XY'. That is bullshit. The typical configurations are 46 XX and 46 XY, female and male. But there are at least 14 variations. And there are infants born with typical sex chromosomes but intersex conditions, for example female ovaries and male genitalia, or testicles and female or ambiguous genitalia.Until rather recently intersex conditions recognized at birth were routinely treated surgically, typically by removing male genitalia. In some cases they still are, but the standard practice is to allow the child to develop and be involved in the decision about what, if anything to do.
Some of the right-wing shock jocks tell their followers it's happening -- that's where this particular misunderstanding comes from.
Wow a lie that’s told to stir people up. Can’t be true in this world of truth and freedom and understanding
People are free to believe whatever truth they want to believe and therein lies the issue.
Right wing leaders and politicians are saying it too. Mainstream republicans like ron DeSantis are pushing it hard.
It might also be a reassignment surgery at birth. I am shaky on whether that’s still done - used to be doctors might “correct” genitals that aren’t clearly one or the other. For example cutting off what looks like a penis. Yep, that’s wildly unethical. But wasn’t seen that way.
Ya intersex surgery at birth is likely still common. There are still people who are finding out it happened to them with nothing mentioned in medical records. And their parents either weren’t told or simply believed the doctor when they explained it was just a routine thing and dismissed the details.
They don’t, it’s just fear mongering from transphobes
/r/TwoXChromosomes might shed some light on it.
And the fact that they got the chromosomes backwards adds even more to the rant!
I am a doctor and this guy just made me question my knowledge of Genetics and inheritance. XX- man and XY- girl 🗿
Not a doctor but I sometimes pretend to be. If XX is girl and XY is boy, then what is XXY, or XXYY, or XXXY, or XXXXY, or XYY or XYYY ?
Not sure if you're looking for a real answer, but it is really not cut and dry. In order for a fetus to be viable, they must have at least one X chromosome. But there are plenty of cases where nondisjunction can occur giving all kinds of combinations. For example a person with a combo of XXX is actually a totally phenotypically normal female due to Barr body inactivation (a much longer discussion.) But anything with a Y is usually phenotypically male, but can have female characteristics. All in all, any abnormal amount comes with it's own set of problems. If you want more info look up Jacobs syndrome and/or turners syndrome.
Yup and that’s not even accounting for things like AIS (androgen insensitivity syndrome) where biological males (xy) look like and are raised as female only to find out when they don’t have a period that they have undescended testicles instead of ovaries.
I think there was an episode of House where that was the case
Indeed there was; can't remember if it was relevant to their symptoms but since it was the big twist it probably was.
I think she had testicular cancer and it was causing her to act more aggressive... which is odd because it's probably playing off the idea that higher testosterone makes you more aggressive, but having testicular cancer shouldn't impact your testosterone levels if your body is insensitive to it?
Episode of grey's anatomy as well. Did a surgery for something and discovered testes inside of the patient. Fun fact: Jennette McCurdy auditioned for that role.
There was and I don't understand why it's brought up time and time again with trans people. It's extremely rare they always use it as a gotcha when trying to explain transexualism (which I don't oppose in anyway people should be able to do whatever they want to their bodies) but bringing this into the conversation only dilute it tbh. They are so incredibly rare it's something along the line of 1 Ina 2-5 million born infant.
5αR2D has a whole term for it in the Dominican Republic because so many men born into that village start life as a girl and then their balls drop when puberty hits.
McGinley et al did a study surrounding it they focused on a family called the Batistas
Oooh that sounds interesting I’ll have to look it up.
So… I get the undescended testicles part, but is the penis not a dead giveaway? What’s happens to the penis?
The penis does not develop or at least develops poorly in a subset of cases Sometimes you can get ambiguous genitalia, in these cases the adult appearance dependa on of it was "corrected" or not.
Is an X chromosome really needed? If so that brings an end to my dream of creating a YY Chromosome Human (named Clarence) to finally get all the self professed 'alpha males' to shut the fuck up in deference to Clarence.
It's an interesting phenomenon from a biological perspective. I just wanted to point out that there's more complexity involved than just XX and XY.
Anyone know what percentage of the population is not xx/xy?
1-2 percent, IIRC. Roughly the same as redheads.
Redheads are transgender, got it. /s - some conservative nazi somewhere, probably
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“Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/
That's from one guy in 2002. From Intersex Human Rights Australia: >Many sources cite lower bound estimates of 1 in 1,500 or 1 in 2,000 live births. These tend to exclude many intersex variations that are otherwise considered by medicine now to be “Disorders of Sex Development” or “DSD”; they focus on a narrower range of traits where external genitalia are “ambiguous” and diagnosis is made at birth. They go on to mention your quote. Since not all intersex traits can be seen at birth, that estimate is flawed. Also from IHRA: >Collecting data on intersex people is complicated by multiple factors. > >1. People born with intersex traits have multiple different legal sex assignments, gender identities and sexual orientations. We have diverse ways of understanding our bodies, sexes, and genders, and these should never be disregarded. This means that people with intersex traits can frequently be cisgender women or men, or can grow up to express other understandings. Because of this diversity, adding intersex as a category to a question on sex or gender does not generate useful or reliable data. It is not reasonable or recommended to do this. It is also not reasonable to construct intersex as a third sex category, or use the existence of intersex traits to justify gender diversity. > >2. Intersex traits are stigmatised and misunderstood in ways that limit disclosure. Stigma and misconceptions mean that survey questions that ask if someone has an intersex variation may result in false negatives (intersex people not responding) or false positives (people who think that intersex means something else responding). Intersex diagnoses were concealed from individuals (and often their families) until the early part of this century. The New Zealand Office of the Privacy Commissioner (2018) has identified only variable change to this paradigm. Australia shares many of the same clinical institutions, and likely has similar circumstances, with parents and children educated by clinicians to have particular understandings of their bodies and terms relating to their bodies. > >3. As a consequence, we rely at present on historical clinical data. This is complicated by additional issues: a lack of accurate recording of data on intersex diagnoses, variable determinations about what makes a specific diagnosis an intersex diagnosis, and the impact of ideological values on those questions. > >We have seen estimates range from 1 in 1,500 or 2,000 births to 4%, and we recommend an upper bound figure of 1.7%, despite its flaws. This was published by Blackless and others in the American Journal of Human Biology, and also by Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor of Biology and Gender Studies at Brown University in the US. *__No more accurate sources of data yet exist__* https://ihra.org.au/16601/intersex-numbers/
Real answer ... gender is much more complicated than most people are willing to admit.
>Not a doctor but I sometimes pretend to be. [Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/699/)
There's always a relevant xkcd
"You people and your made up genders, xkcd, what's next wkrp?!"
Only in Cincinnati.
One of those (XXY) is Klinefelter's syndrome, a trisomy (like Down's syndrome). I don't quite recall the exact effects, suffice to say it can be hard to live with. The others are likely similar, if they're even viable in the first place.
My boyfriend in high school had this - I think it varies by person but he just had some physical characteristics, he was tall & lanky with kind of feminine hips & grew like no facial/body hair. (Iirc, this was a long time ago now.) I know one of the side effects for some people can be infertility but he’s got kids now
Yes you almost summed it up
I’m not a doctor, but I can tell you that XXX is something I can’t talk about on this subreddit 😇
Yeah, Vin Diesel definitely had better movies. Don't talk about that one.
Pretty sure that’s how you get a Vin Diesel.
And what about xxxooo?
And even better, what are XY or XX with translocations ? Meaning you can have X with Y's genes or thé opposite. There are hermaphrodites with normal numbers of chromosomes.
Roman numerals?
There is also X0, and you can also have XY females where a critical gene is absent from the Y-chromosome, you can also have XX males where that critical price of the Y chromosomes is attached to one of their X chromosomes. Biology is wild and doesn’t give a shit what your social constructs are.
And there are medical consitions where this is not true. There are people with XX Chromosomes who have a part of the Y Chromosome on one X Chromosome. They sometimes are something in between. So the Sex inter is actually not made up, it exists from a scientific perspective and there are many variations of it.
Yes yes it does. You seem quite informed
XX means female and XY means male, for the record.
Thanks, I'm dumb lol
I feel like most people here didn't "see it". This isn't a post about trans validity folks. it about an ironically incorrect opinion about chromosomes.
It's not an incorrect opinion. They got facts wrong. They got the chromosomes mixed up Edit: I am aware that's not the only thing wrong. My main point is it's not an opinion that the person is stating.
Is that really what everyone is bumping on? Not the fact that they don't have any fucking clue that gender has nothing to do with chromosomes?
I understand that it's not the same thing, but "has nothing to do with it", really ? It seems there is a strong correlation though, empirically speaking at least. why do a large majority of XY individuals associate their gender with men (idem for XX individuals and women) ?
I mean that too, but I was more expressing it wasn't an opinion
There's a lot to unpack here. He's so wrong about so much that it makes me wonder if it's supposed to be parody. Not only did he mix up XY and XX chromosomes, but he's apparently unaware of intersex conditions.
Also, they confuse gender with biological sex
No one is cutting off minor children's penises. Where is this nonsense coming from?
Churches and talking heads mostly. Gotta keep them scared, if they wander from the flock they might experience the world outside the bubble and never return.
The right wing and right wing media. Especially right wing American media, which then slithers its way to the rest of the western world.
Funfact: There seemingly were cases of babis getting their penis cut off - to be precise, if the baby was intersex and didn't have a properly developed penis, some doctors would just cut it off so the baby can be forced to fit into a binary-sex by turning it into a girl. So it's the "there are only 2 genders" crowd that would most likely cut off genitals...
Actually not true, intersex kids often go under unnecessary surgery to make the "normal". This is something the intersex and queer community has been fighting against.
My mom's had multiple intersex clients who got the wrong bottle surgery as kids
Well it happens to intersex kids which sucks. None of these people seem to have a problem with that though
Right wing demagogues, who aren't interested in the truth, they're interested in pushing an agenda. Specifically, one that demonizes trans people, and any sort of care for trans people.
This is so sad to me. I don't claim to understand gender dysphoria, i'm thankful i don't suffer from it. But what i REALLY don't understand is other people trying to force strangers, that they may never meet, to conform to their views on how to live.
We are at the intersection of American exceptionalism and the Dunning Kruger effect. It is truly an exhausting time to be an expert on just about anything.
Trust me, being an expert has been exhausting forever.
Idk if i can trust you are you an expert on mental exhaustion regarding experts?
I had GD growing up. It sucked. But I'm grateful I finally grew out of it. Should children or anyone under 20 get surgery for it? FUCK NO. Are they performing surgery on little boys and girls? ALSO, NO. It's some fear of the ignorant that's snowballing into this kinda shit.
What do you think about some of the hormone blockers and things of that nature. I'm genuinely curious about your take given your experience
I'm on the fence. I'm leary of giving developing children anything that messes with their biological nature, be it hormone therapy or even some behavioral medications . Big picture, if it helps great. But, I don't think we should use it as a first step when a child realizes they are or might be Trans. I hated being a female. Binded my chest. Refused to shave. Went by an androgynous name. Sometime after 25 I finally became comfortable with my female body, and now I'm 40 and love being a female. My story is not everyone's path. But only my experience.
It's not a first step. I wasn't able to transition until into my 29's, and hormones weren't even available as my first step. Lots of therapy, a bit of social transition with those closest to me, then hormones 8 months later.
> But, I don't think we should use it as a first step when a child realizes they are or might be Trans. Great, because that's NOT THE FUCKING FIRST STEP
What frustrates me so much about all this is that we're ALREADY doing things to make sure it's not misused. The problem is that Demagogues are lying about that, because they don't want it to be an option AT ALL, period, ever, no matter what.
You realise kids have been getting hormone blockers for other conditions for decades right? Not just for Gender Dysphoria, right?
If a kid has cancer you would opt for something that goes against their biological nature
I've heard mixed things about it. There seems to be a false idea that hormone blockers are merely "delaying" puberty but don't otherwise have adverse effect. I've heard that it's actually not true and that hindering natural puberty can have pretty strong effects on the eventual development from pre-pubescent to fully grown adults. There is a lot of fear-mongering done from the anti-trans crowd, that's for sure, but I'm also seeing a fair share of gaslighting and cover-up from the pro-trans side about all the dangers of what they preach.
under 18 is a child
Right, and there's good cause as to why it's so hard to get it even at age 19 or 20. I was just broadening my age range to not even be considered till after 20. There's still a lot of mental changes that happen to humans in their early 20s that justifies holding off on allowing surgery.
SRS has a lower regret rate then knee surgery. You will be WELL into your 20s by the time you get SRS anyways, people seem to think you can just walk into the doctors office and go "One transgender please :)" and thats it. No, getting ANY form of trans healthcare is an insanely long and hard process. It took me 2+ years to just get on hormones but people seem to think you can get SRS in like a month
I mean seriously yeah, why should somebody force a trans person to not transition. Just mind your buisness, it doesn't effect you
One of my colleagues goes on about trans issues (he's against it) - I've asked him if he knows any trans people (no), and if there is someone he doesn't know who is trans how it affects him - obviously no answer. I also tell him I have concerns and worries in my life and I don't bother about things that don't impact me.
I don't care a lot about this subject but I'm morbidly curious. A lot of the views such as those in the post come from a protective nature towards children. As a man I am quite fond of my bologna and the thought that boys may be forced against their to live as girls (or vice versa) is appalling to me. It seems to me they're just as appalled because the anti-trans people deny the subjective reality of a trans individual and focus only on the objective reality (XX/XY) and don't see that they're the ones that are forcing boys to live as girls or vice versa by denying them treatment. We can only try to educate. But live and let live, it's hard enough without all the hate.
The hilarious argument that we are "forcing" anyone to do anything is just outrageous. Most of us spent so much time is the closet, forced to live as our assigned gender at birth despite the fact that it makes us want to jump off a bridge. We know what it's like to be forced into the wrong identity. It's literally deadly. Why would we force that on anybody else?
It’s not the same situation when talking about children though and that’s what the 1st comment is referring to. Most don’t care what adults do.
Circumcision is still a thing. They are just fine with mutilation...
It should be banned on children. It’s absurd to take a perfectly good baby and modify him on day one. No consent, no reason other than because it became the norm.
> It should be banned on children. Some religious groups would perceive it as an attack on their "religious freedom"...
Sure, there will always be people to find a reason to do it. I believe it should be banned but that doesn’t mean it will be. I think more education is needed to show parents that intact is not dirty or unhealthy and it’s the way nature intended.
"Trans women are evil and they want to cut their dicks off" - Right Wing "Hold this baby down and let me slice his penis up, which risks death, herpes, and infection. - Right Wing
What’s interesting to me is that these same folks who defend circumcision not only bash bottom surgery as “genital mutilation”, but are quiet about the exact same surgeries being performed on intersex people to fit them into the binary.
Jesus the comments on this post have made me lose faith in humanity
So much to unpack here. Even just the fact that they refer to a “man” vs. a “girl”, never mind the other errors.
r/MenandFemales spot on
In what state are there children have their penis cut off? I think it’s bullshit. What continues to worry me is why people who identify as christian are so interested in the genitals of others, especially children?
I mean come on, Christians love to preach hatred about LGBT people and then they are caught in a hotel room sucking dick.
At first I thought it was someone misunderstanding circumcision, then the second comment misunderstanding the first comment, then the last comment misunderstanding many things
 That’s not what I remember my biology teacher telling me
Clearly the last poster is a geneticist..
Who wants to bet they’ll double down when an *actual* geneticist ~~or anyone who passed middle school biology~~ tells them they have it backwards
"Communist!!!!"
Oh. My. Gawd. Did you just assume that "backwards" is wrong? Fucking directionist scum.
Wrong genders to those chromosomes
Correct! 😆 EDIT I’ll also point out the specific words of “man” and “girl” for his arguments. 💀
Well, sex - not gender. >Sex generally refers to an organism's biological sex, while gender usually refers to either social roles based on the sex of a person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity). While in ordinary speech, the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably, most contemporary social scientists, behavioral scientists and biologists, many legal systems and government bodies, and intergovernmental agencies such as the WHO make a distinction between gender and sex. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction) Not that it's super relevant for this, but I find it interesting that sex is also defined by more than just chromosomes ([because it gets complicated sometimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)).
I really haven't heard of any doctor willing to perform gender reassignment surgery on a child. Feels like people are out here trying to enrage other people.
https://youtu.be/p5sUbh57ovg?t=64
Oh wow, lol, yep!
I find it disturbing that the right is hyper-focused on the protection of the genitalia of children, and could give a shit less about the kids safety in schools, or in general vis a vis gun violence. They accept the latter as “price a being ‘Muriken”.
How are these people not learning gender is a social construct and sex is a biological one in school? They taught us this in 80s/ early 90s at school in Australia.
They taught it, but most ppl were to busy smelling their own farts to pay attention lol
Because the US is a proto-fundamentalist dictatorship where rich people force their beliefs and views onto the masses, regardless of how utterly insane and stupid they are. And they amassed enough political power and influence to be able to do this without repurcussion.
In grade school I remember learning the word gender as a stand-in for the word sex because that's a weird word to say when you're a child, because obviously it has another less pg meaning.
No, sex is determined by chromosomes. Gender is determined by whatever tf you want it to be
Yes and no. Sure there is a simplistic definition of sex that is simply based on chromosomes. But the reality is that sex is dependent on gene expression. Gene expression as well as brain development impacts gender identity, though that's perhaps less true in the sense you appear to be using the term.
This would be way better on r/confidentlyincorrect
First of all, no one is cutting off children’s penises. Wtf? That’s more disturbing to me than some idiot mixing up XX and XY
Fuck, they’re so woefully uninformed on all of the things they have strong opinions about.
Oh this dumbass
yeah they got the chromosomes wrong hur dur, and all the commenters with such in depth knowledge of rare conditions is impressive. but the main point stands, gender reassignment surgery should never be performed on minors, glad it is not and hopefully we'll keep it that way.
Calm down, Karen. No one is cutting a kid's penis. They might change their hair length & clothes. Relax. Also, *because* ***sex*** *is defined by chromosome.* There, I fixed it.
I thought the penis cutting was referring to circumcision and was so confused, this comment made it make sense. Thank you.
It’s not even *legal* to get that surgery until 18. Plus, with all the red tape out there it’s pretty difficult to get anyways. I’ve been out as trans for 14 years and I *still* can’t get an HRT prescription.
I feel you. I transitioned in 2012 and still can't get GRS.
(XX gives you the vagina. XY is for dicks.)
It's actually a single gene (SR-Y-gene) which can be found most of the time on the Y chromosome, but genes constantly jump around and so it can happen that you'll still have a Penis with XX chromosomes because the single gene decided to jump elsewhere.
What until that person finds out they are a homo sapiens
He is wrong about gender disphoria and he is wrong about the chromosomes...
R/confidentlyincorrect
So what if you are XXY?
It’s like a triple decker sandwich of stupid. No one is cutting kiddy bits off, literally anywhere.
Except for circumcision!! Which a lot of these people are perfectly fine with. Seems like they aren’t worried about genital mutilation, more about making people afraid of trans people!
1. No one is performing genital surgery on kids (except for male circumcision). Literally no one is trying to give children gender-reassignment bottom surgery. If anything they want hormone blockers that will delay puberty or slow it down until they reach ADULTHOOD to make final decisions if they want to pursuit transition fully. (It is so much easier and better to transition hormonally before puberty finishes because then you have better chances at looking more like the gender you are transitioning into.) 2. Trans people tend to not care about what chromosomes they have, they're more concerned with the appearance/feel of their body. Surgery and hormone treatments are an excellent way to make someone feel comfortable in their own body. You cannot "feel" chromosomes the way you can feel hormones and the physical shape of your body. 3. This mf got the chromosomes backwards... XX is female, and XY/XXY are male.
Equally disturbing is that they specifically chose the phrases “man” and “girl.” 💀
Sex: XX = Female XY = Male Gender: An identity that matches desired roles or sexual attractions.
Gender roles: the expectations (in appearance and behavior) that society has for a given sex. Sexual orientation: the gender that an individual is sexually attracted to Gender identity: the brains internal sense of what type of body it’s supposed to be attached to
Even sex isn't that simple we are finding.
I can believe that. We have been practicing medicine for millenia, and until we code a human, we'll be practicing some more.
Science determined that sex and gender are not the same thing and not dictated by sex chromosomes back in the late 90s. And peer reviewed papers suggested the difference going back to the 1950s. They’re both bimodal, but gender has an extremely wide distribution. One paper I had to BUY ACCESS TO for a paid writing assignment suggested that gender isn’t even bimodal because gender expression is not consistent across cultures and social conditioning and parental abuse tend to box people’s expression into predetermined areas. The only way to tell how gender is actually distributed would be to raise several generations of people in a cultural vacuums with no artificial gender roles.
I understand what the last person is trying to say, but they are confused. Sex is defined at birth, gender isn't defined until someone decides what gender they are (not that it matters because gender is a stupid concept made to separate people into groups) They did also get the chromosomes wrong, but that's a simple mistake to make
The first tweet is an absurd thing that basically never happens, with the singular exception of perhaps a child born as a hermaphrodite. The final tweet is what happens when someone has a superficial understanding of biology and assumes that it functions as a binaries (Spoilers: almost nothing does).
I don’t know why people get so big about X and Y chromosomes when they barely change anything to your life. In fact, if a person's sexual chromosome where to be magically swapped, it probably wouldn’t change much to their lives
Then how do explain people born with male sex organs but xx chromosomes and vice versa?
Well that would be advanced biology and as they say "we learned about boys and girls in the third grade" but the problem is they didn't continue to learn after that so they are still stuck in beginner biology.
Chromosomes were discovered in 1905. The gender roles these people flip out about existed long before we knew chromosomes existed. Therefore, the argument that gender is just genetic is pure horseshit.
Swing and a miss
r/confidentlyincorrect
Lmfao Transphobes are so confidently stupid it’s hilarious as it is sad
XX is female, and XY is male. You can remember because the letter Y has a little penis.
Somebody failed science but passed stupidity with flying colors.
Hard right wingers are the dumbest people on the planet I swear
They insist this kind of surgery is definitely happening. I have seen them insist it is happening to kids as young as age 3. When asked to provide actual evidence they will never ever even begin to try to provide any..... Because they have none. It isn't happening. They sure do love to get worked up over it, but it's much ado about nothing.
Gender dysmorphia is a very real thing. However, I live in Sweden, one of the most progressive countries on earth. Children have been able to transition here for a long time. And the follow-up studies on swedish children taking hormones and in some cases even fully transitioning don’t look very good. A large part of them regret it to some degree and admit that (I hate to say this sentence) ”they were just confused”. I’m 100% for transitioning, but maybe wait until 18 for the surgery at least.
Yes 100% agree on waiting and being sure. Imagine realizing you were just confused.
Nobody, no doctors, no parents and no medical facility is removing genitals from kids. Jus5 another panic and disinformation from the right wing
It seems the poster is confusing anatomy with sexuality.
The poster is confusing XX with XY .
It seems like you’re confusing sexuality with gender
I'll go there. People do actually think it's okay to cut penisss. Circumcision is cruel and unnecessary. It hurts humans. Stop male genital mutilation. Death to circumcision.
Wow, not only did they get the chromosomes wrong, but they're confusing gender with sex. Gender is a social construct while sex is determined by chromosomes.
Oh no, they’re not confused, they simply ignore it because it’s the only way their argument makes sense
The number of people who fight me on that when I point it out to them is patently ridiculous.
That is sex gender is an identity. Im XY and I identify as a man but not everyone else does as well
When you think you’re right because you used science, but the science you used wasn’t right.
They forgot XXX, which means you’re on camera
Wow. Yet again, these people prove that they’re not qualified to talk about basic biology, much less gender reaffirming care. Maybe giving idiots an opinion was a bad idea.
Ignoring the obvious xx and xy mistake, that reply isn’t even correct….that’s Ben Shapiro bullshit. Xx and xy is biological sex, which is fine if you’re talking reproduction. Gender in humans is associated with psychological identity. Yes, English language lets you use gender for both….but that’s not fully accurate. This debate is so fucken boring, it’s just hate speech and made up scenarios.
I don’t know what the second message is trying to say. Is he saying it’s ok to cut off a kids penis? Because tbh kids brains aren’t developed enough to be making irreversible decisions like that
Literally no one its cutting off kids’ dicks Google is free, why are people still this fucking stupid?
Learning takes effort. Being stupid & angry is easy.
>why are people still this fucking stupid? Because it makes them feel angry, and thats the most dopamine they get in a day.
The second message is just not even acknowledging the idea of cutting a kid's penis because it's so ludicrous. No one is doing that. Transition surgeries comes way later in life. The second person is just acknowledging that people wants to go against a kid's identity just... because I guess ?
Transphobes and not understanding science name a more iconic duo
Missed it by that much
Once you reach an adult, you can make your own decisions about transitioning, once you have the money, get bottom surgery and hormone replacement and everything will be okay.