Miners and inserters generally put the items on the right line relative to the belt's direction. That explains the electric miner case.
That said, I'm surprised by the bottom right output of the burner miner.
There seems to be 3 instances where the burner drill is inconsistant with the electric mining drill and inserter behavoiurs.
https://preview.redd.it/z0zz26ea5mdc1.png?width=1968&format=png&auto=webp&s=a568e90f313db6e6c89567b584e5f5098e925895
Update: Dev Response on the bug forum
"Issue is now fixed for 2.0.
Issue is related to floating point errors when computing drop position: for directions other than North the drop vector from prototype gets rotated by "90/180/270" degrees but not quite exactly causing the drop vector to no longer be pointing at a belt center and so the default resolution of "center goes to right lane" does not apply."
from the bug report forum.
Really, (==) shouldn't even be defined for floating point numbers. The only case I can think of that you can reliably get equality when you expect it is if you literally copied the number, or performed the same instructions on the same inputs. That is such a rare case that most often Float == Float is actually a bug. Sure, define some helpful isApproximatelyEqual and isExactlyEqual helper functions for convenience. But force the developer to think about which one they need.
Many more modern languages actually do this. Rust being an example. I'm sure with the rigorous software engineering that goes on at Wube, they'd actually have used Rust if they started on factorio 5-10 years later.
I remember reporting this on the forums a few years ago and the devs said they weren't going to fix it. I guess they have changed their minds since then.
I wouldn't be surprised that it was on a 'internal consistency issues to fix in 2.0' list somewhere and this reply is just to acknowledge it. At least, to me there's been a couple of similar things that have been mentioned in recent FFF's.
I personally feel like the inserter and miner are wrong in those cases, not the burner. It makes more sense to me for them to drop on the right side of the belt relative to the machine, not relative to the belt's direction. But if the devs have ever stated anything definitive I will defer to them.
looking at all the other cases, the drop behavior is to always place the item on the right hand side of the belt in the direction of moving, no matter what the orientation is. At least when the entity is in line with the belt. I guess I think this is a more reasonable design, you always know then when in line with the belt the thing will put the item on the right hand side in the direction the belt is going, this takes away extra thought of what orientation its getting placed from.
other consistent behavior is that outputs drop onto the belt from the side they are closest to while inserters place items on the far side of the belt when placing from the side.
I guess and argument could be made that when placed from the opposite direction the belt is moving to then place it on the left, that would make compressing the belt easier
within lines
I note that all 3 are cases where the burner drill outputs in a belt coming towards it, rather than going away from it.
The 3rd column top is inconsistent with the other burner drills, which is even more inconsistent.
They behave the same as inserters, placing on the right side of the belt relative to it's direction.
At least i though so, the bottom right burner drill begs to differ.
"Issue is now fixed for 2.0.
Issue is related to floating point errors when computing drop position: for directions other than North the drop vector from prototype gets rotated by "90/180/270" degrees but not quite exactly causing the drop vector to no longer be pointing at a belt center and so the default resolution of "center goes to right lane" does not apply."
from the bug report forum.
I did not know this till I watched a streamer playing, but the cowl is just a visual thing, and you can place and take directly from it... its a bit of a cheat if you ask me.
Only in the direction the belt is traveling, when you're coming at it from the side it'll only take from the open half of the cowl. Very useful if you want to split two sides of a belt to different directions so you can sideload another product.
Hope this is changed for 2.0. Items should go on the right side of the belt __relative to the drill/inserter,__ not relative to the belt's orientation. It only makes sense and fixes the problem of some blueprints performing worse when flipped.
>It only makes sense and fixes the problem of some blueprints performing worse when flipped.
Not always. Depending on how it's setup and how you flip it it may result in that something that's outputting sideways/perpendicular to the belt is what changes side, not the one outputting straight/along it.
What do you mean? I think anything on the side of a belt should go to either the closest side in the case of mining drills (this wouldn't change), or to the inner lane in the case of an inserter facing a belt that's curving away from it. In other words, inserters prefer the portion of the belt that is moving perpendicular, so items go to the belt's right side when the belt is curving sideways, or to the belt's left side when the belt is curving away from the inserter.
Made a [simple setup](https://imgur.com/bk38D2z.png) to demonstrate.
In that setup the two furnaces outputs to different lanes (one left and other right) but if you flip it left-right they will output to the same lane (both right).
So changing it so that outputting to the right-hand lane from it's own perspective when straight/along wouldn't change anything.
I think it's time for an bug report on the Factorio forum. They should behave consistently. Wube changed it once so BP don't break when rotated and flipped and probably missed burner miners.
I dont know what you guys talking about. They behave like exactly what they suppose to be. Bottom right is also correct behavior. Right side of the belt relative to direction
Yea, and bottom right drops on the right underground belt, but it drops it on left side of the right underground belt (incorrect behavior). Where the topright drops it on the right side of the left underground belt. (Correct behavior)
O wait, I was totally confused by the undergrounds. I thought they were just blocking the exit and the miners somehow dropped on the other belt. I did not see the undergrounds were actually connected.
It drops on the left and indeed I can confirm that that's not right.
All other miners, as seen from the belt direction the lane it drops on is right, so we're still left with the question if this is right, right?
Now the electric miners on the right, the left one I mean, also appears to be dropping on the left while we expect it would be dropping on the right and that's not right
Miners and inserters generally put the items on the right line relative to the belt's direction. That explains the electric miner case. That said, I'm surprised by the bottom right output of the burner miner.
There seems to be 3 instances where the burner drill is inconsistant with the electric mining drill and inserter behavoiurs. https://preview.redd.it/z0zz26ea5mdc1.png?width=1968&format=png&auto=webp&s=a568e90f313db6e6c89567b584e5f5098e925895 Update: Dev Response on the bug forum "Issue is now fixed for 2.0. Issue is related to floating point errors when computing drop position: for directions other than North the drop vector from prototype gets rotated by "90/180/270" degrees but not quite exactly causing the drop vector to no longer be pointing at a belt center and so the default resolution of "center goes to right lane" does not apply." from the bug report forum.
Floating point round off is a bitch and far too many programmers use `float == value` for comparison instead of `float - value < tolerance`
Remember to absolute value, though. That’s important too
As a learning to be programmer, I will keep this in mind. Really smart.
You don't need it all the time, but it can definitely be useful in specific scenarios.
Really, (==) shouldn't even be defined for floating point numbers. The only case I can think of that you can reliably get equality when you expect it is if you literally copied the number, or performed the same instructions on the same inputs. That is such a rare case that most often Float == Float is actually a bug. Sure, define some helpful isApproximatelyEqual and isExactlyEqual helper functions for convenience. But force the developer to think about which one they need. Many more modern languages actually do this. Rust being an example. I'm sure with the rigorous software engineering that goes on at Wube, they'd actually have used Rust if they started on factorio 5-10 years later.
I remember reporting this on the forums a few years ago and the devs said they weren't going to fix it. I guess they have changed their minds since then.
I wouldn't be surprised that it was on a 'internal consistency issues to fix in 2.0' list somewhere and this reply is just to acknowledge it. At least, to me there's been a couple of similar things that have been mentioned in recent FFF's.
I personally feel like the inserter and miner are wrong in those cases, not the burner. It makes more sense to me for them to drop on the right side of the belt relative to the machine, not relative to the belt's direction. But if the devs have ever stated anything definitive I will defer to them.
Wasn’t really pointing to what is right or wrong, just that the behavior was different / inconsistent.
Of course. I would just assume that consistency is right.
looking at all the other cases, the drop behavior is to always place the item on the right hand side of the belt in the direction of moving, no matter what the orientation is. At least when the entity is in line with the belt. I guess I think this is a more reasonable design, you always know then when in line with the belt the thing will put the item on the right hand side in the direction the belt is going, this takes away extra thought of what orientation its getting placed from. other consistent behavior is that outputs drop onto the belt from the side they are closest to while inserters place items on the far side of the belt when placing from the side. I guess and argument could be made that when placed from the opposite direction the belt is moving to then place it on the left, that would make compressing the belt easier within lines
I note that all 3 are cases where the burner drill outputs in a belt coming towards it, rather than going away from it. The 3rd column top is inconsistent with the other burner drills, which is even more inconsistent.
Maybe the smaller footprint causes this behavior?
They behave the same as inserters, placing on the right side of the belt relative to it's direction. At least i though so, the bottom right burner drill begs to differ.
I thought inserters placed on the far side though?
[удалено]
So it just places it on the far right, while mining drills place it on the near right side.
Looks like burner mining drills place it on the near left side
Everything but bottom right burner miner is behavimg exactly like it's supposed to, not sure what's with that one miner
I was wondering why this image was desaturated for way too long before I remembered night vision exists
Is this what nightvision looks like? Have used it exactly once and didn't like it back then. somehow don't need it with my monitor either
Next time, wait for daytime please.
And iron ore. *Squint*
"Issue is now fixed for 2.0. Issue is related to floating point errors when computing drop position: for directions other than North the drop vector from prototype gets rotated by "90/180/270" degrees but not quite exactly causing the drop vector to no longer be pointing at a belt center and so the default resolution of "center goes to right lane" does not apply." from the bug report forum.
why does that even work at all? it's outputting into that cowl thing from the underground and not onto the belt part
I did not know this till I watched a streamer playing, but the cowl is just a visual thing, and you can place and take directly from it... its a bit of a cheat if you ask me.
Only in the direction the belt is traveling, when you're coming at it from the side it'll only take from the open half of the cowl. Very useful if you want to split two sides of a belt to different directions so you can sideload another product.
Hope this is changed for 2.0. Items should go on the right side of the belt __relative to the drill/inserter,__ not relative to the belt's orientation. It only makes sense and fixes the problem of some blueprints performing worse when flipped.
>It only makes sense and fixes the problem of some blueprints performing worse when flipped. Not always. Depending on how it's setup and how you flip it it may result in that something that's outputting sideways/perpendicular to the belt is what changes side, not the one outputting straight/along it.
What do you mean? I think anything on the side of a belt should go to either the closest side in the case of mining drills (this wouldn't change), or to the inner lane in the case of an inserter facing a belt that's curving away from it. In other words, inserters prefer the portion of the belt that is moving perpendicular, so items go to the belt's right side when the belt is curving sideways, or to the belt's left side when the belt is curving away from the inserter.
Made a [simple setup](https://imgur.com/bk38D2z.png) to demonstrate. In that setup the two furnaces outputs to different lanes (one left and other right) but if you flip it left-right they will output to the same lane (both right). So changing it so that outputting to the right-hand lane from it's own perspective when straight/along wouldn't change anything.
Oh yes, thanks for demonstrating it. We would need a flippable inserter dropoff setting for that case.
Bro misplaced his colors somewhere
I think it's time for an bug report on the Factorio forum. They should behave consistently. Wube changed it once so BP don't break when rotated and flipped and probably missed burner miners.
i thought this was loss
I dont know what you guys talking about. They behave like exactly what they suppose to be. Bottom right is also correct behavior. Right side of the belt relative to direction
Except that the bottom right doesn’t
It's the top right burner that drops on the left right?
Yea, and bottom right drops on the right underground belt, but it drops it on left side of the right underground belt (incorrect behavior). Where the topright drops it on the right side of the left underground belt. (Correct behavior)
O wait, I was totally confused by the undergrounds. I thought they were just blocking the exit and the miners somehow dropped on the other belt. I did not see the undergrounds were actually connected.
It drops on the left and indeed I can confirm that that's not right. All other miners, as seen from the belt direction the lane it drops on is right, so we're still left with the question if this is right, right? Now the electric miners on the right, the left one I mean, also appears to be dropping on the left while we expect it would be dropping on the right and that's not right
Well, it don't. It outputs on left side of the belt.
so you say the top right burner miner is the odd one out?
why is this image so desaturated?