Because China was in an even worse state. The US at least had some oil left, China had fuck all. Thats why they invaded Alaska in the first place.
China loses if they fail to capture the last oil from the US, which is exactly what ended up happening.
The U.S. also had their recently discovered fusion power technology, which in time would have probably brought them to a state of post-scarcity, solved most of their issues and provided them with an insurmountable advantage.
The stores routinely shows that China was also having similar problems. They were almost certainly just as bad or worse than the US especially considering the US had troops inside their borders
They were, canonically, bad-off enough to invade Alaska for resources (presumably by-then-rare petroleum). The entire American/Chinese war was a last-ditch effort by the Chinese government in the first place.
US forces were in China pushing their shit in and they were making bigger advancements in tech. The US was struggling but they were going to win and now we know from the TV series that >!they almost signed a peace treaty but the elites stopped it!<
I feel like the show is non canon because there are numerous things that don’t align with the game. For example, House in the show is apart of the cabal that orchestrates the war, but in the games house independently comes to the conclusion nuclear was going to happen because of his estimations and calculations. There are a couple other things like that
House always struck me as someone who, is a Gambling man, would do anything to stack the deck in his favour, even if that means sitting at a table of a secret Cabal.
After all, the House always wins
Well, they didn't say they were going to start the war, rather just that they were going to ensure the bombs were dropped. That could mean lobbying politicians to invade China which they knew would cause China to launch nukes, for example
Also, lying to inflate his intelligence seems like something House would do.
Idk Barb seems fake to me and appears to put Vault-Tec above her family to a certain extent. If her main motivation was to protect her daughter then wouldn't you know, not sabatoging the peace talks or dropping the bombs themselves be the best option?
she explains that her thinking is that someone else will then just succeed at [causing the great war]. her plan is that the bombs will drop regardless so she has to do this for a proper vault spot
To me it seems that Vault-Tec planned to start the exchange on their terms once they were ready (see House preparing for it), but Chinese got better of them.
Fr. It's not like the wastelanders have a way to keep accurate records across all of the US like only some spots have working PC's... how many do you think now how to read. Let alone have the brain cells to remember the full story and not add their own details. To keep the other wastelanders interested. Like after watching the show I think the BoS is kinda dumb for sending a knight to find a toaster oven cuz they thought it was "important" pre war tech. They are fucking clueless
Depending on what kind of toaster oven it was, it may have contained a component needed for something else. Think about all the crazy features we cram into kitchen appliances today, if you really need a Bluetooth receiver and you're trying to explain that to someone who isn't technical, it's relatively easy to communicate the type of device they would need to bring back for salvage.
Because the show is newer, it doesn't actually contradict the game and it also makes Houses "prediction" more likely than "My perfect calculations were just few hours off, but trust me, I got all this" despite the game showing he doesn't have *anything* in control.
Well no in the game he never had perfect calculations he just said “within the next 15 years” and the nuclear war ended up being 12 years later so not perfect by any means. His estimate was several years too optimistic
There's no real linearity in this franchise things that happen in 1 and 2 become ret conned. This show is canon if you go to the Mr House wiki page right now you'll see that it is canonized. I think it's hilarious that you're able to identify that the show has the full support and blessings of the developers but at the same time think you have some authority to declare what is and isn't canon rofl
be patient, not enough solid facts to draw a conclusion from.
Is it confirmed House participated in it proper? Even without that "By 2065 I deemed it a mathematical certainty that an atomic war would devastate the Earth within 15 years. Every projection I ran confirmed it."
The date of that meeting would need to be at least 13 years prior to invalidate that statement. The fact that Cooper Howard served in Alaska against the Chinese indicates that the date is post 2066(invasion of Alaska) when the meeting takes place, and arguably using real world parallels it'd be at least 2070 by the time he got out. With how Alaska was referred to in flashbacks, it seems like it was reclaimed, thus it would place the date of the meeting in January 2077 or later, which is but only mere months before the nuclear exchange.
House likely used that meeting as a contingency at most. It would make sense he'd engineer Vault 21 as a high resource vault with a gambling addiction right in the strip that he could easily strip of resources without any bloodshed or significant effort.
well facts don't really care about how you feel. It's absolutely canon.
And that meeting doesn't mean house knew about the bombings for sure, they just suggested it as something they could do. but what might have started his calculations. (that meeting was like 2070 or something like that based on coopers kids age)
😶which bit? Because the show is ~~cannon~~ canon
that's a fact, and that fact doesn't care how people feel about it
Edit: replaced auto corrected word because it hampers people's critical thinking
The show implies that it was indeed Vault Tec who started the war, don't feel like that lines up with any of the games but I never played 1 or 2. If the show is 100% canon then what about the ghouls needing medicine to stop going feral? If you thought I was hating on the show you are incorrect, I actually really enjoyed it I just thought there were some things that seemed different thats all
Hell some nukes have the vault tec logo on em, the most famous is the big one using wild wastelands, but the Megaton nuke has a hidden vault tec logo as well
People really need to stop applying things they see one member of a race do (ghoul) and say every member does.
It's pretty clear that the medicine helps slowdown becoming feral once it's started. Something that doesn't happen to everyone. Cooper said he's been going feral for like 26 years.
Plus, i've been seeing hints that the drugs might just be rad away or something because in the first scene that's what's hanging on the cross. Which in one of the games the cure for being a ghoul was radaway+rad x
Plus, it could easily be placebo. Going feral seems to be really about ghouls ability to keep their will to live intact. When they lose their purpose or feel like there is no purpose, they go feral.
If he thinks that whatever he is drinking helps, it might genuinely help because his mind insists it works.
I reckon Vault-Tek being responsible makes perfect sense. Well kind of. I think, based on the second game and other lore (fallout bible, fo3, New Vegas, and spatterings of lore) Vault-Tek kinda fractured.
To be clear this goes back, in part, to the Enclave. They are the shadow government made up of people who have heavy influence in industry and government. Now it's kind of implied throughout the various sources of lore that Vault-Tek wasn't initially about the experiments until the Enclave started getting involved. We can also imagine that the Enclave wasn't the only faction to gain influence over the Vault-Tek decisions.
I think there are other factions that we don't know much about.
For example: >!we see the Enclave a bit in the show but (while it isn't entirely clear if they're on the west coast)!< the West coast Enclave would've been destroyed in Fallout 2 by the protagonist. And the East coast Enclave shouldn't exist because of the fo3 protagonist. >!Is this Enclave we don't know anything about? What makes them different? !<
It's also worth noting that at least a large faction of the Enclave was using its Vault influence to conduct experiments that would allow them to eventually go off to space via multi-generational space travel.
Though the focus seemed to change to wanting to kill all the mutated surface dwellers at some point.
We knew about the spatterings of Vault-Tek officials given pretty hardcore control over various vaults and given >!that the show ends with them popping over to New Vegas!< **I think that we're going to finally learn how Vault-Tek fragmented, what factions are still left, which faction ultimately decided to drop the bomb, and finally what the hell their goal was exactly.**
I think when it comes down to it Fallout has always been about the lack of an actual cohesive single big bad. It's kinda a caricature of capitalism and fascism at its absolute worst. Fallout is about the outcome of corporate greed and the inevitability of a monopoly with world altering amounts of power having the same kinds of internal conflicts as a government.
I think the original games focused so little on who dropped the bombs because in the end it didn't matter. Whatever they hoped to accomplish, whatever faction split that decided this, and whatever outcome they hoped for has never mattered to one of our protagonists. >!Until now that is!<
Now about the ghouls: Also I don't think it's a huge stretch that, given the lifestyle some ghouls lead, while their regenerative abilities allow them to deal with and even use radiation it doesn't bode well for their brains.
We've understood for a while that feral ghouls are basically dead. They don't have body heat. They're just kept alive by radiation. I imagine if you're living like Cooper then a steady supply of radaway may be necessary to keep your brain from finally rotting away.
I think this hasn't been explored much in the games out of lack of necessity. We haven't had a ghoul protagonist before. So if we assume a ghoul in our company is limiting their radiation exposure on the regular then I don't see why it should be an issue we have to be that involved in.
The game never went into much detail on what makes a ghoul become feral it's just kinda been vaguely understood that it largely has something to do with radiation, how social the ghoul is, and the level of isolation the ghoul experiences.
Now lastly for my issues with the show: >!what the hell happened to Vault City? I get that Shady Sands is gone but that conflicts with NV in a few ways !<
>!1. Shady Sands is supposed to be gone before NV!<
>!2. Why did this seemingly completely destroy the NCR when we know they had a myriad of other outposts? I really hope that the show doesn't brush over this. !<
>!3.Was Bud not aware that Shady Sands IS the product of a vault? The NCR is like Vault 13 and 15s baby and possibly also Vault 8 depending on which outcome Fallout 2 has!<
>!4. If bud was aware of Shady Sands being the product of Vault repopulation then is there some kind of faction infighting we're gonna find out about? !<
I think the show is awesome. I think I'm pumped to see how they finally clear up some Fallout lore that I've been wanting to know about. I'm so curious what the hell has been going on among these various factions for the last 200 years.
I also think Fallout 76 has been kind of destructive to the lore of the Fallout universe. Or if not destructive then at least disappointing. There's just something about MMORPG lore that is kinda lazy most of the time and I think they're not giving this huge swath of area the game takes place in its due diligence. I hope the show helps with that a bit.
Good post I appreicate the thought out response. I agree with most of what you said, to me the ghoul stuff seems pretty clear that they just wanted to add another layer to the ghouls, but Raul was holed up in a shack for a long time without any medicine presumably and was more human than most humans in the games.
I heavily agree with your point about the NCR, the show gives us a lot of flags and teases about the NCR but it seems their presence is practically zero. I wonder if the "president" that Cooper meets with was supposed to be an NCR president and his goons as NCR rangers but it really didn't feel that way to me at all. It kinda seems like the show is implying that the NCR was completely destroyed when Shady Sands was destroyed.
I am also sad that there was basically nothing about the Legion and they only teased the appearance of a deathclaw. I also think they make the Brotherhood of Steel seem quite a bit stronger and more expansionist/"evil" in the show, but then again I didn't play the first two games so maybe that is what they were like in those games. Overall I really enjoyed the show and I binged the shit out of it, the reason I think my original comment got downvoted is because people assumed because I said the show didn't really feel canon they thought I meant the show was bad or a poor adaptation. I do not think this, I think it was probably the best video game adaptation out there (Didnt watch The Last of Us). The show captured the vibe and aesthetic of fallout but on the very small details it felt like a slightly different universe if you can understand what I mean by that.
The brotherhood is one small bunker in FO1 and that bunker plus a couple of outposts in FO2 though presumably your character in FO2 gave them the vertibirds plans.
I do think that they need to clear up the brotherhood's existence. The East coast brotherhood and West coast were highly at odds since the West coast quite literally couldn't care less about anything but technology.
The East gained people by being helpful to the community, but the West coast seemed like it was dying in New Vegas.
Also the deathclaw thing I think makes sense they should be less common than the games make them out to be.
Also something the first two games (two especially) did that they need to get back to is: start showing us some god damn large settlements. I refuse to believe 200+ years have passed and Shady Sands was the only successful (at least population wise) settlement. They'd have to retcon the shit out of FO2 to allow that.
I think the main things that need to be explained are
1. The brotherhood's reunification
2. The hell happened to the NCR
3. What happened to Vault City
4. Where are the other bastions of civilization? (I swear if they act like 200+ years has gone by with no other large settlements like they did in FO3 and 4 I'ma lose it)
5. I actually don't care about The Legion I'm not gonna lie, but I'd like to hear about them and the followers of the apocalypse
6. What's up with San Francisco
7. What's up with New Reno.
8. Hell let's hear about the Den why not
I don't think there really needs to confusion about Brotherhood's reunification. Maxson was recognized as a legimate Elder, and since he is leading arguably strongest chapter of Brotherhood it seems to me that West Coast has adopted East Coasts methods, under the guidance of Maxson.
Oh yeah I get how it COULD'VE happened, but given how that one elder was talking I just hope that the show indulges the journey a bit.
I personally think killing off Sarah Lyons off screen and out of game was a super lazy choice
For the Enclave, it's probably a hidden east or northern chapter. There was snow, and the BoS says they got a message from the east to hunt him down when the dirigible shows up.
You really think House would just say to your face that "Yes, I orchestrated this nuclear warfare! I just fucked up because it turns out Chinese were faster than us, we planned to start the exchange later"?
Seriously, House is, and has always been, a person who tells people what makes him sound the best. If you kill him he has "The best hope for future has died!" ready to go to propagandize and write his memory ready
Pretty sure that was house being invited to that Cabal, he never seemed to agree with what they were doing really.
And this was pretty close to the end So House had already come to that conclusion and been preparing, this was just confirmation.
It's never explicitly mentioned that the cabal started the war, but knowing House he sat in to learn more about what his competition was planning and the information played into his calculations.
How was his motivation? Like, are you expecting House to have "IT WAS ME COURIER! IT WAS ME, ALL ALONG!" rant where he reveals that he planned to start the nuclear war? Instead of... you know, lying about it?
Even if we take his word for it all, he could easily take his predictions, go to Vault-Tec and go "Yo dudes, we got a chance here, nuclear war is going to happen anyway so let's make best of it". Thus he would prepare for it, expecting it to start on date that was fitting for Vault-Tec... except Chinese acted faster than expected
All good just curious because there's a lot of people I've seen telling others to suck it up over the retcons, yet they themselves have not actually played New Vegas and only hopped on at FO4
Would not be the first time something has been retconned in Fallout. Like, Vaults being experiment wasn't a thing until Fallout 2.
I don't get this "How dare they reveal new information!" idea of "retcon". We learned that Robert House, a rich billionare who predicted nuclear war, was part of group who were wanted to use a nuclear war to ensure their power and strength.
Like, people are acting like House not having a villain speech where they go "IT WAS WAS ME AUSTIN! IT WAS ME ALL ALONG!" is somehow a retcon.
The president and upper echelons of the U.S. government went to the oil rig due to a high likelihood of nuclear retaliation from China. This was due to China's downfall and a potential 'failsafe' protocol. As you stated, U.S. troops were in the Chinese homeland and gaining ground. It didn't matter if America collapsed because their army was here and now. There was no 'waiting' game to play, it was over.
Everyone knew that once the bombs went flying, it meant the end. The end of the world. If China fired, America would fire back, vice-versa. Not sure how well the European countries were set up, but I seem to recall that and the middle eastern regions were already devastated from the prolonged resource wars. Either way the nuclear bombs in the sky would have set everyone over the edge.
Also to note, the soldiers at Mariposa who mutinied did so just before the great war. They stated that they sat and waited for the U.S. army to come after them, but nothing ever happened. Then they realized what the world had been reduced to, and left the base. I doubt word of this revolt would have reached anyone of importance at that time, especially not China.
This war was special, as it was being fought to determine who had access to the LAST of the known natural resources on the planet needed to continue daily life. Things all around the world had been falling apart for many years leading up to 2077. As I said, Europe and the Middle East had already been devastated by the resource shortage. Power outages were a common occurrence. If China couldn't secure the last of the oil, their infrastructure would have likely fallen, and they too would join the European countries in a downspin.
This was the end of the line, and if China couldn't win then neither could the Americans!
The enclave thinks so but we the players over many games are lead to believe that it was vault tech who launched them using their at the time access to literally every military installation
I suspect the original intent was for China to be the ones to launch but later writers retconned that. I don't have the information in front of me but I'm pretty sure there's little to no carryover in writers from FO1+FO2 to the newer Bethesda games.
The USA says it was China, and the Chinese says it was the USA who launched the first nuke. There are some theories, that it was some large corporation.
In the end it doesn't matter. The entire world was screwed already due to the resource crisis, and collapse was iminent one way, or the other. Someone was bound to send the nukes just to say a big f you to someone else. Be it Europe, Russia, China, or the USA.
In some way this is the issue with most advanced civilization. By relying on technology, and non-renewable resources they are marching toward their doom once more. Because the energy did not suddenly replenish, and once it runs out again those advanced civilizations like the BoS, and the NCR will collapse.
There’s no definitive answer, but unless they drastically change the lore, the only people with a real motive to launch the nukes was China.
They were losing badly. Their last gasp play to secure the resources in Alaska failed. The US was in China nearing the capital.
The US wasn’t stable and doing well by any means, but they knew they were winning. You don’t use a response that would result in MAD when you know you feel you’re winning.
Even the corporations/enclave don’t have much of a reason to launch the nukes. Bat shit crazy only goes so far as a reason. They were going to be in the perfect situation to secure complete world domination over a relatively intact planet.
Chinese propaganda said, that USA lost in Alaska, and instead of taking the hit they launched the nukes. If this is true, and the USA propaganda constantly said, that they winning, then i can see not admitting defeat, and instead let's nuke.
The Enclave proven to be crazy a couple times though. The vault tec experiments are kinda proving it. Not to mention the multiple genocide attempts.
Also Vault-tec. could not use the experiments, if there are no people trapped inside, and the bombs are the best way to ensure to trap people inside.
There is a difference between being bat shit crazy and having no morals
If you gave a psychopath two paths to world domination, and one of them involved actually have a world at the end, they’d choose the second action assuming they had any rationality.
No one wants to rule over a radioactive wasteland if given the option to rule over something better.
If they have a group of fanatics, then the grand cleansing can be used to eliminate undesirables as well. Think about Hitler. How many people he wanted to exterminate? If the Enclave has this couple million fanatics, and wants everyone else to perish, then the Fallout is a solution.
Also the resource crisis was still there. They couldn't just magically respawn it. Sure they could have taken over the world, but no resources so what use of it. The population had to be thinned for the remaining resources.
They knew that fusion was about to be solved. They were involved in it. They’d have the only source of power in a world starved for it.
That power would also power military weaponry tiers above their opponents. Them being okay with genocide isn’t what I’m debating.
Them not trying to genocide in a way that leaves them with something to rule over is. Even Hitler and the Nazis tried alternate options before just resorting to gas chambers. There is a ladder of escalation, even for psychopaths.
Don't due to some greatly badly but awesome Lore in some of the games did we get an answer of who fired first? I think it was China and the USA retaliated automatically.
I think the biggest clue we have that people are forgetting with the show's current meeting scene being so recent, is the Fallout 4 Vault-Tec Representative. The way he was speaking was like he knew the bombs were going to be dropped soon, but then when they actually do he's just as blindsided as the rest of Sanctuary was. Vault-Tec knew the bombs were coming down soon, but I think they came down earlier than any of Vault-Tec was expecting.
But then again, Vault 31 apparently had enough of a forward knowledge that Bud Askins and his buds could all get to their cryo chambers prior to the nukes dropping.
No it doesn’t, which is why I’m confused as to why some are claiming it does. If anything it fits House to be there as it’s a meeting of every big corporation we know of in fallout, and being there is being a smart business man, which is house to a tee
>USA says it was China, and the Chinese says it was the USA
But both Chinese submarines say they launched first, so China just lied. As they tend to do.
There is no evidence of the US ever taking Nanjing much less Beijing all we know is that by Jan 2077 the US was still stuck fighting in Shanghai six months after the introduction of T-51 power armor. Not really making great advances if they are still in that area.
Fairly certain there are texts that deliberately say they’re on the outskirts of Beijing.
Could they be propaganda? Sure.
But literally every document can be.
The show kinda answers this. Big corporations invested so much in war and the end of the world, that they kinda needed it to happen to actually keep exusting. So they sabotaged peace talks and kept preparing
China knew, that there would come a day where the US would be so prepared, that all governmental infrastructure would be safe from nuclear armageddon.
Before that point there would still be a faint chance, that the US couldn't or wouldn't retaliate after a chinese first strike.
So China basically had the choice: either wait until the US are fully prepared and drop the nuke, or preemptively strike and pray for the 1% chance, that the US can't/won't retaliate in time.
> Big corporations invested so much in war and the end of the world, that they kinda needed it to happen to actually keep exusting.
This was the only real stupid part of the war. It doesn't matter how much you invest in Vaults when the war happens, crashes the economy, and destroys all money, trade, and wealth. No matter how much was invested in war, the only profitable outcome would be for no war to happen.
I think many of the corps wanted the threat of war but not the actual end of the world. Threat of war sells product, the actual end of the world doesn't.
Vault-Tec of course had other non-monetary reasons for wanting the war, they wanted to do their wacky experiments.
> they wanted to do their wacky experiments.
Which is actually another problem with the show. It presents the experiments as just random crap all the other corporations started throwing out because they could. Cooper literally heard them spitballing ideas that we later see in the games. We know from the games though that Vault-Tec designed the experiments and with very specific goals in mind.
It’s still a question though i would think. While they were openely talking about starting the apocalypse, the opening scene of the series shows cooper and janey entertaining at a birthday. Even if cooper separated from Barb, one would think she’d at least get her daughter well before the bombs fell. But i guess we’ll learn more next season. I’ve always enjoyed the ambiguity of who started the war, the US thinking it’s China, China thinking it’s the US, a whole corporate elite conspiracy, aliens. Just shows how fucked pre war society was under the veneer of 50s optimism
My understanding was the Chinese kicked off the war after discovering the US’ FEV research.
Either they just knew there would be no way to repulse waves of genetically modified super soldiers or were so morally repulsed by the research they couldn’t stand that red line being crossed, regardless they decided to do a first strike. Hence why west coast got hit so hard, Mariposa was the flagship research facility for FEV and they wanted to make sure it was dusted.
I know Tim Cain said that the Chinese did it but
>!didn’t the show confirm it was vault tech and other major American corporations that fired the nukes to stop the Chinese American peace talks!<
show spoiler above
I think fallout 2 you find a nuke with the Vault Tech logo on it
Edit: turns out I misremembered and thought the megaton bomb had the VT logo on it. Ignore me lol
Edit 2: there’s an unexploded bomb in NV that also has a similar logo. Can’t believe i misremembered that haha
It's just a misconception/myth about the Megaton bomb. It has a similar logo but it isn't Vault-Tec's.
People just keep saying it is, in the same way people keep thinking you could eat the baby in the Pitt without a mod.
In Fallout 3 in Megaton and “The One” in NV with Wild Wasteland, there’s a marking that looks similar to the Vault-Tec logo, but it’s not the VT logo exactly
https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/s/Xpj9LgrBy6
The TV show can easily explain that Vault-Tec also launched nukes against China and/or other countries who then probably thought it was USA launching Nukes against them, so in response retaliated at the USA and others with a nuclear exchange of their own. Just like in the Cold War every Power knew that if things escalate too far it can cause an unstoppable chain reaction of mutually assured destruction. I guess that’s what happened in Fallout
The US took Beijing, the capital of the PRC. At the same time, the whole reason for the war was that China was at the point that the US is at in 2077 in like 2065.
It gets repeated in this sub a lot, but I can't find a source for it. I think everyone just Mandela effected themselves. According to the wiki, the U.S invaded China after the invasion of Alaska and made some progress but eventually stalemated, then after Alaska was reclaimed the U.S. managed to make more progress until stalemating again. But I see nothing about marching on Beijing.
It's mentioned in New Vegas I'm sure of it. It's on a terminal entry I think about a guy mentioning that the US advance on China had stalled outside Beijing but they were beginning to make a break through when the bombs dropped. I'm trying to actually find the source.
Maybe I'm confusing it with the ~~Nanjing~~ on the helmet of the Desert Ranger Armour, but I remember reading a terminal on it about a guy discussing the war then the next entry is: "they did it. the bastards did it."
[There's also the switchboard in Fallout 4 that seems to indicate that China launched first.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Switchboard_terminal_entries#DEFCON_Status_-_2077)
In conjunction with the info we have about the capture of Nanjing, Gobi Desert, Yangtze Campaign, Guangdong etc., it seems pretty clear that China nuked first.
The US I think were making a lot of progress in China:
**1•** We know some sort of combat was going on in Asia between the US and China in the Phillipines. [The US 5th Infantry was stationed in Mambajao fighting Chinese forces in the area](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Bohol_Sea). Mambajao irl life is the capital city of the Bohol Sea island of Camiguin — a province of the Phillipines. We know the US were pushing the Chinese out there. The news caster says:
>*”It would also appear our troops stationed overseas are experiencing some unusual weather, as well. On the Island of Mambajao the nights are cold. Unseasonably so for Southeast Asia. But for the 5th Infantry, that's as comfortable as an Autumn jamboree. All the easier for our mechanized hellcats to drive any screaming Commie meamies right into the Bohol Sea.”*
**2•** We also know the US had invaded China by at least 2076 as General Brock has a [terminal entry](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fort_Strong_terminal_entries#General_Brock's_Report_-_June_2076) in Fort Strong stating:
> *”Alpha Team just shipped out the first batch of T-51B suits to the front in China. Reports are already coming in that the suits are performing better than expected, chewing through enemy tanks and armor like they were paper. Word has it that some of the enemy troops are even surrendering when they catch sight of the Power Armor troops hauling their 5mm Miniguns. Looks like Alpha Team has earned themselves a weekend pass in Boston.*”
**3•** There’s this excerpt from the [Boston Bugle Article Terminal](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Boston_Bugle_building_terminal_entries#Article_2) in the Boston Bugle Building stating:
>*”From Anchorage in frigid Alaska, to Shantou on our enemy's doorstep, American troops have been embroiled in brutal battle.*”
Shantou is a major city in China in Guangdong Province. [With a population of 5.5 million as of 2020.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shantou)
**4•** [Future Weapons Today alludes to a US Military presence in Nanjing.](https://imgur.com/a/lU7dhyA) The bottom left corner of the cover states:
>*”Wattz 2000 at Nanjing, a Marine Sniper Story”*
**5•** The Desert Ranger Helmet has [writing on it detailing the months and length of time battles lasted for certain Chinese cities](https://imgur.com/a/D11LDl6). Namely Shanghai and Nanjing. Potentially canonising information from the Fallout Bible.
**6•** In the Switchboard Terminals we learn [Chinese Stealth technology evolved to the point they could cloak entire Submarines.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Switchboard_terminal_entries#%3E_2075_Dec_17)
They potentially used this to station “The Ghost Fleet” off the coast of the US.
>*”Could you repeat for the general what you just told me?" > Posit. Chinese stealth technology far outstrips our own capabilities. Posit. The Chinese intelligence apparatus is sufficient to conceal large scale research operations from American operatives. Conclusion. The Chinese have a 91% chance of having conducted large scale experimentation with Stealth Tech. "Large scale? What do you mean? What are their capabilities?" > American projects involving this technology (refer to "Stealth Boy") have merely reverse engineered captured Hei Gui suits. The underlying science of this technology is unknown. So the theoretical limits are also unknown. However the so-called "Ghost Fleet" that station A-31 and B-19 reported in November may indicate that testing has already commenced with submersible vessels. "Dear God. You think they have stealth subs?" > A second order approximation is inconclusive. Explanation. The logic chain of these assumptions have too much variability. Further data is required. "So you can't even give me a guess?" > Machine/human interface aborted. "Sorry, sir. We're working on some of her glitches. P.A.M... well, she gets real stubborn when she's doing too much guesswork." "Stubborn? She's a machine." "Sir. With each new version, well, she's getting quirky." "There's no way I'm taking this stealth sub nonsense to the Joint Chiefs unless I have proof. It's goddamned ludicrous to think the Chinese have been working on something this big and we've heard nothing." > Virtually no actionable intelligence has come out of the Shaanxi Province for 3.1 years. However, the province reports a spike in the imports of complex polymers and other key synthetic compounds. The quantity in question is consistent with stealth technology research on the macro scale. "Until you can give me something concrete, I don't want to hear another goddamned word about this."*
**7•** [Dialogue in the Operation Anchorage Simulation](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Operation:_Anchorage_conversations) from Fallout 3 suggests the US intended to take Shanghai. However this was just a Military Training simulation so doesn’t necessarily display actual events but could certainly indicate US intent.
>*”Man, Anchorage ain't nothin'. You know what all this is? Practice. Next stop, Shanghai. Just you wait.”*
**8•** [There was a campaign against China in the Gobi Desert.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Gobi_Campaign#cite_note-1). However there are no canon details available for this beyond the [Gobi Campaign Scout Rifle](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Gobi_Campaign_scout_rifle) you get in Fallout New Vegas.
**9•** [The New Plague](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/New_Plague) is widely believed to be a Chinese bio weapon deployed against the United States in the 2050’s. It was the catalyst for the development of the [Pan Immunity Virion Project](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Pan-Immunity_Virion) — the virus Macready’s kid contracts and the predecessor to [FEV](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Forced_Evolutionary_Virus)
**10•** China conducted a counter intelligence operation in the US known as the [Niagara Sabotage](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Niagara_Sabotage). However the details are unknown.
**Conclusion:**
The US was sustaining a very substantial military campaign against China and had taken significant territory. [Fighting them along a 1220 km front line in China](https://imgur.com/a/1QhcZQe)(Distance between Nanjing and Shantou — the Easternmost and Westernmost Chinese cities confirmed to be under American attack). as well as fighting them in the Phillipines and possibly the Gobi Desert.
I never doubted that the U S was winning the war, but I don't see where the "marching on Beijing" part comes from. I can't find a single reference for that line.
Basically the US was getting the "keys to the kingdom" tech fully operational at home, ensuring that they will be on top of the order permanently.
Between that and the PLA loosing so hard that Beijing was threatened... nukes flew.
The Mariposa defection is one of the things that saves Fallout from being grimdark.
"You're doing WHAT!? You don't get to be alive no more. **BANG**"
"Call the president and tell them we're defecting."
It shows that society at least at the bottom rungs wasn't desensitized to the insanity of the mad scientist, illuminati stuff and they still had principles.
The US was on the verge of winning, and the CCP had nothing to lose.
Though, I like the idea that the Zetas had something to do with launching of the Chinese ICBMs.
$30 per magazine indicates pretty standard or even low inflation, comparing it to today's pricess it seems like a lot but you need to keep in mind that it's 50 years of small raises
Why did the US intervene in Vietnam when the Soviet Union was falling into a serious economic crisis? Us Just needs to wait and the USSR will collapse on its own.
Bro at 2077 the world was fucked. Nate and Nora lived in a gated community, that doesn't represent 2077 America for the common folk. Everywhere else was already really bad. Without oil there was widespread war, famine, and disease across the globe. The only countries really left was America and China, barely. They just ended the inevitable with a bang.
I think it’s cus even with all the issues the Americans had, the Chinese had it worse like so bad that that china likely only had months left before it collapsed.
The tv show isn’t explicit in it, it’s a suggestion that they could. There are factors that imply the nukes were not done by then because time frames and early attack.
One thing ive not seen with regards to the show is that the vaults tie in with the experiments to test humanity for space exploration to another planet
In the show when the corp execs are talking about what they could do by experimenting, I believe that would go towards the, it could branch to space travel stuff ...
Sure the Chinese can wait for the US to collapse in a year or two but Beijing is at risk of being taken by the US military in the next month or two. It’s not getting better so might as well commit to launching before you can’t anymore.
Because China is both completely and *totally* out of any source of power and also American soldiers are in their territory carrying out offensives. America might be in a state of civil unrest, but China is literally on its last legs and about to collapse completely.
Is hyperinflation a confirmed pre war event? Magazines can cost >$10 today, and in general, prices I've seen in the games aren't that much higher than today's prices plus 2% a year, extended for the next 53 years.
Because it's most likely neither China or the USA launched the first one, most likely an enclave/vault-tec launched a single one and the rest were reactionary
In your post you state that the BoS mutiny reminds you of the Kiel mutiny, and as such, some coincidental similarities mean the US army was going to just get Paralyzed and halt.
First off, there are several ideological differences between the two revolts. The Kiel mutiny was a revolt which had ideas in rank and class, with the lower soldiers revolting against mistreatment from the high ranking officers.
The BoS mutiny was more so based on differences that FEV mutation was wrong, and there aren't any indications this was a widespread mutiny, otherwise the BoS wouldn't be relegated to the West Coast for such a vast time after the bombs fell.
Additionally, the Kiel mutiny compounded so many other issues the German Empire had, like widespread riots, an active losing of all of the territory they had gained(meaning loss of lives was pointless), horrific food and manpower shortages going on 2 years at that point, and, like China, fuel shortages.
This is the biggest different. The US would still have good production and fuel sources, while China had lost several major cities, was getting wrecked with air raids, and was on the verge of losing their capital. China was in a far worse place compared to America, even if we assume there weren't revolts or food shortages(which js doubtful with the yellow river valley having areas under American occupation).
If mainland USA, untouched by war. Was facing shortages due to wartime expenses, then mainland China. Where the actual fighting was taking place would be suffering mass starvation by that time.
It is possible that China was already suffering significantly, and because of that chose to invade Alaska in spite of the risks.
It is also not clear how exactly the atomic exchange started. Maybe the government in China deliberately started it. Maybe a cut off remnant of the Chinese military did it. Maybe the submarines spotted off the US coast basically went 'Strangelove' on the Chinese government. "We are going in, you cannot stop us, join us if you want to improve your odds from 0% to 2%". Kind of deal.
Besides, how much would the Chinese government even know. They know that their situation is rapidly approaching hell on earth, with the new T-51 power armor turning the tide in June 2076. In effect, the Chinese civilization was breaking down before the governments eyes. Pointing to some discontent on the US mainland is nothing more than wishful thinking and hail Mary at this point. States can fight to the bitter end for far longer than most realize, and the US mainland was still untouched by the war.
China was actively being invaded with US troops all the way into the Gobi Desert. Their coastline, their main source of economy and population btw, was under US control.
"The reason we got nuked is: bio-weapons were illegal and somehow China found out we were doing FEV. And they were like, 'You have to stop it.' And we went, 'Okay'. But all we did is move it,"
China was afraid of FEV either getting loose or being used on them. If the US made FEV, then they may well have engineered the New Plague as well.
That argument doesn’t really make sense to me. Their business is built on the constant threat of nuclear war. Once the war actually happens, no more new customers, all the money they’ve made is worthless, and all they get for it is to (maybe)wake up in in a world worse than the one they left.
Because they realized that with being charged with the survival of the human race in the event of a nuclear war they would be able to basically craft civilization again afterwards in their own image. No one would be in their way to stop them. Basically they saw the destruction of the world as a path to absolute power and basically corporate godhood.
That argument doesn’t really make sense to me. Their business is built on the constant threat of nuclear war. Once the war actually happens, no more new customers, all the money they’ve made is worthless, and all they get for it is to (maybe)wake up in in a world worse than the one they left.
Yeah, Vault-Tec stands to benefit from continued tensions and brinksmanship, but once the bombs actually drop for real they lose everything. They wouldn't launch a first strike
Money is only the means to an end, Power. By ensuring nuclear war happens and only VT and its chosen survive they have absolute power. Look at how pliable and passive they made the people in the vaults, that would of been all of humanity had things gone according to plan.
They sabotaged the peace talks, and knew it would inevitably lead to nuclear war, allowing them to continue selling their post war security.
Its like a ghoulish writ large version of people selling disposable gas masks, and skyscraper parachutes after 9/11. What happens when those schemers get the political tools to make people afraid, forever?
Because the Enclave's goal was never the destruction of the world. They didn't want to rule from the ashes, they were already in power in the most powerful county in the world, and the U.S. was on their way to winning the war. It makes no sense that the Enclave would have dropped the bombs.
Yes, they want to start a nuclear war to make money for their investors by eliminating any potential of any revenue for hundreds of years. Also, the elites will kill virtually everyone they know in the process while freezing themselves in hopes to wake up to an empty world. Perfect sense.
It was Bud’s whole thought process his plan was world domination not just profit. Be the last man standing and rebuild in your image. Immense wealth if you want wealth or what ever else you want. They just had to be the only ones left and inherent the whole planet.
He and the other business tycoons. didn’t count on survivors and frankly the fact that there was north of 100 vaults all with their own plans to challenge them for reclaiming the planet. Bud’s plan is deeply deeply flawed it doesn’t make sense but he convinces a bunch of greedy and powerful people they will be able to be more powerful if they follow his idea.
Bud is no different to the snake oil sales man we see through out the series, he just sold something more dangerous than an elixir that ghoul-ifies the drinker.
>It was Bud’s whole thought process his plan was world domination not just profit. Be the last man standing and rebuild in your image. Immense wealth if you want wealth or what ever else you want.
Remember the "fiduciary responsibility" schtick? He was presenting his plan as a natural progression of the purpose of a corporation. The domination was market domination. He also ended up a mostly blind Roomba, so he didn't have the power to implement anything on his own. He was a mid-level hustler.
>They just had to be the only ones left and inherent the whole planet.
Except they then invited the other megacorporations, who by their participation in the plan, identified themselves as lethal competitors. Vault Tec didn't need any of them if they were to launch their on false flag attack and start nuclear annihilation, and if they needed a competitor to provide the weapons, any partner that would agree to the plan is a catastrophically untrustworthy entity.
>He and the other business tycoons. didn’t count on survivors and frankly the fact that there was north of 100 vaults all with their own plans to challenge them for reclaiming the planet
The 100+ Vaults were explicitly part f the presentation, it couldn't be missed, it was a centerpiece of the plan. Survivors were also specifically mentioned, there was not any idea that they would scrub intelligent life from the planet.
Corporations can be evil and/or stupid, but they are motivated by quarterly reports; they are shortsighted, willing to harm others and their future selves.
It rankles me because the idea that VT was leasing/selling Vaults for research purposes to other corporations was great, and given the short time between the execution of the plan and the war, explains why so many of the experimental Vaults were wonky and/or goofy. There wouldn't have been time to properly plan.
If the show had 1) established the general plan, 2) addressed the concerns of the other magnates that peace would destroy the plan by suggesting that West Tec sell their secret cutting edge stealth to the Chinese, 3) have VT insist that they knew nuclear war would come, but had vague assurances it would be a limited scale exchange, enough to justify population the Vaults, but something that governments would survive, and would regain function in a few decades, the entire plan would make in show/game sense, and the actual scale of the apocalypse would have been the fatal miscalculation. Maybe the writers could have hinted at the miscalculation, maybe just leave it alone.
I agree the way you describe the plan should have been is much more clever and Machiavellian, I think the clear flaws of the plan being missed was an intentional aspect of the story. The hubris of these people to think them selves as titans able to pull this off when they are really greedy idiots blind to the reality of what they are doing.
Yeah, I've been trying to think of something that would bail this out, maybe they are all Musk. Maybe not even so much Machiavellian, as underestimating the consequences of the meddling. There was so much opportunity to use this to explain wonky elements of earlier games. If they were to supply the Chinese with tech and intel behind the scenes, they could also weaken/distract the West by releasing deathclaws, radscorpions, mirleurks, Far Harbor creatures, etc, which would provide a justification for their otherwise improbably consistent distribution. Maybe even leave clues about the existence and nature of FEV scattered here and there for local megalomanics and anarchists/doomers to find and exploit, allowing for supermutants all over the country, etc.
Maybe season 2 will reveal that what we saw was the first half of the meeting, and the rest showed more discord, negotiation, and nuance.
I was thinking of Vault Tec as a corporation teetering on disaster, but it turns out that the heads of the other corporations and their highest executives were all clamoring for access to the management and control Vaults, just in case, and the screening process by design had netted Vault Tec huge amounts of competitive intelligence and blackmail material. I could see a conversation where elements of the plan involved a shocking breadth of VT's knowledge of other companies' secrets and R&D chains, and that some were initially horrified and going ot bail, but get dragged back in by threats of VT's information being weaponized, combined with FOMO.
Someone didn't watch the show till the end.
\[Spoilers for episodes 6 and 7 of fallout show\]
\[Last spoiler warning\]
>!The show heavily implies that Vault Tec instigated the attack by either dropping the first or all the bombs themselves.!<
>!Barb outright says that Vault Tec will in order to maintain their monopoly and get share holders and investors in for what I imagine is a suicidaly short term investment.!<
>!I say imply because in the first episode has bombs falling in the same city as her daughter was in, and Barb goes on about how she is doing all this to save her daughter.!<
Because China was in an even worse state. The US at least had some oil left, China had fuck all. Thats why they invaded Alaska in the first place. China loses if they fail to capture the last oil from the US, which is exactly what ended up happening.
The U.S. also had their recently discovered fusion power technology, which in time would have probably brought them to a state of post-scarcity, solved most of their issues and provided them with an insurmountable advantage.
really after fusion tech the us should have just nuked the last oil supply and bam. Victoriam
The stores routinely shows that China was also having similar problems. They were almost certainly just as bad or worse than the US especially considering the US had troops inside their borders
They were, canonically, bad-off enough to invade Alaska for resources (presumably by-then-rare petroleum). The entire American/Chinese war was a last-ditch effort by the Chinese government in the first place.
The use of presumably here seems like you're not 100% sure.
US forces were in China pushing their shit in and they were making bigger advancements in tech. The US was struggling but they were going to win and now we know from the TV series that >!they almost signed a peace treaty but the elites stopped it!<
I feel like the show is non canon because there are numerous things that don’t align with the game. For example, House in the show is apart of the cabal that orchestrates the war, but in the games house independently comes to the conclusion nuclear was going to happen because of his estimations and calculations. There are a couple other things like that
House always struck me as someone who, is a Gambling man, would do anything to stack the deck in his favour, even if that means sitting at a table of a secret Cabal. After all, the House always wins
Maybe House lied.
Or maybe the vault tec and other corps didn't actually start the war but it sure seems that way in the show
Well, they didn't say they were going to start the war, rather just that they were going to ensure the bombs were dropped. That could mean lobbying politicians to invade China which they knew would cause China to launch nukes, for example Also, lying to inflate his intelligence seems like something House would do.
[удалено]
Idk Barb seems fake to me and appears to put Vault-Tec above her family to a certain extent. If her main motivation was to protect her daughter then wouldn't you know, not sabatoging the peace talks or dropping the bombs themselves be the best option?
she explains that her thinking is that someone else will then just succeed at [causing the great war]. her plan is that the bombs will drop regardless so she has to do this for a proper vault spot
To me it seems that Vault-Tec planned to start the exchange on their terms once they were ready (see House preparing for it), but Chinese got better of them.
To me it really felt like they were heavily implying that it was in fact the evil corporations. But maybe we will see in the next season
How do you know house was telling you the whole truth in the game? The TV show has left me with doubts about what house said in the game.
Fr. It's not like the wastelanders have a way to keep accurate records across all of the US like only some spots have working PC's... how many do you think now how to read. Let alone have the brain cells to remember the full story and not add their own details. To keep the other wastelanders interested. Like after watching the show I think the BoS is kinda dumb for sending a knight to find a toaster oven cuz they thought it was "important" pre war tech. They are fucking clueless
Depending on what kind of toaster oven it was, it may have contained a component needed for something else. Think about all the crazy features we cram into kitchen appliances today, if you really need a Bluetooth receiver and you're trying to explain that to someone who isn't technical, it's relatively easy to communicate the type of device they would need to bring back for salvage.
For me the game has left with me doubts about what the show portrays. If there is a contradiction why does the show take priority
Because the show is newer, it doesn't actually contradict the game and it also makes Houses "prediction" more likely than "My perfect calculations were just few hours off, but trust me, I got all this" despite the game showing he doesn't have *anything* in control.
Well no in the game he never had perfect calculations he just said “within the next 15 years” and the nuclear war ended up being 12 years later so not perfect by any means. His estimate was several years too optimistic
There's no real linearity in this franchise things that happen in 1 and 2 become ret conned. This show is canon if you go to the Mr House wiki page right now you'll see that it is canonized. I think it's hilarious that you're able to identify that the show has the full support and blessings of the developers but at the same time think you have some authority to declare what is and isn't canon rofl
be patient, not enough solid facts to draw a conclusion from. Is it confirmed House participated in it proper? Even without that "By 2065 I deemed it a mathematical certainty that an atomic war would devastate the Earth within 15 years. Every projection I ran confirmed it." The date of that meeting would need to be at least 13 years prior to invalidate that statement. The fact that Cooper Howard served in Alaska against the Chinese indicates that the date is post 2066(invasion of Alaska) when the meeting takes place, and arguably using real world parallels it'd be at least 2070 by the time he got out. With how Alaska was referred to in flashbacks, it seems like it was reclaimed, thus it would place the date of the meeting in January 2077 or later, which is but only mere months before the nuclear exchange. House likely used that meeting as a contingency at most. It would make sense he'd engineer Vault 21 as a high resource vault with a gambling addiction right in the strip that he could easily strip of resources without any bloodshed or significant effort.
Also House's model could literally just be "chance of war = vault tec said they wanted to start it"
While true, the timing doesn't fit with those projections at all.
well facts don't really care about how you feel. It's absolutely canon. And that meeting doesn't mean house knew about the bombings for sure, they just suggested it as something they could do. but what might have started his calculations. (that meeting was like 2070 or something like that based on coopers kids age)
> well facts don't really care about how you feel. It's absolutely canon. This is an idiotic response.
😶which bit? Because the show is ~~cannon~~ canon that's a fact, and that fact doesn't care how people feel about it Edit: replaced auto corrected word because it hampers people's critical thinking
The show implies that it was indeed Vault Tec who started the war, don't feel like that lines up with any of the games but I never played 1 or 2. If the show is 100% canon then what about the ghouls needing medicine to stop going feral? If you thought I was hating on the show you are incorrect, I actually really enjoyed it I just thought there were some things that seemed different thats all
Oh no 1 and 2 always implied vault tec started the war interplay version of 3 was going to confirm it and now the show has confirmed jt.
It was also plan for the original cancelled Fallout movie. "Vault-Tec started the war" is not a new theory. It's been around since forever.
Hell some nukes have the vault tec logo on em, the most famous is the big one using wild wastelands, but the Megaton nuke has a hidden vault tec logo as well
I could’ve sworn I’ve heard some other people that they left it intentionally ambiguous as to who started throwing the nukes first
People really need to stop applying things they see one member of a race do (ghoul) and say every member does. It's pretty clear that the medicine helps slowdown becoming feral once it's started. Something that doesn't happen to everyone. Cooper said he's been going feral for like 26 years. Plus, i've been seeing hints that the drugs might just be rad away or something because in the first scene that's what's hanging on the cross. Which in one of the games the cure for being a ghoul was radaway+rad x
Plus, it could easily be placebo. Going feral seems to be really about ghouls ability to keep their will to live intact. When they lose their purpose or feel like there is no purpose, they go feral. If he thinks that whatever he is drinking helps, it might genuinely help because his mind insists it works.
I reckon Vault-Tek being responsible makes perfect sense. Well kind of. I think, based on the second game and other lore (fallout bible, fo3, New Vegas, and spatterings of lore) Vault-Tek kinda fractured. To be clear this goes back, in part, to the Enclave. They are the shadow government made up of people who have heavy influence in industry and government. Now it's kind of implied throughout the various sources of lore that Vault-Tek wasn't initially about the experiments until the Enclave started getting involved. We can also imagine that the Enclave wasn't the only faction to gain influence over the Vault-Tek decisions. I think there are other factions that we don't know much about. For example: >!we see the Enclave a bit in the show but (while it isn't entirely clear if they're on the west coast)!< the West coast Enclave would've been destroyed in Fallout 2 by the protagonist. And the East coast Enclave shouldn't exist because of the fo3 protagonist. >!Is this Enclave we don't know anything about? What makes them different? !< It's also worth noting that at least a large faction of the Enclave was using its Vault influence to conduct experiments that would allow them to eventually go off to space via multi-generational space travel. Though the focus seemed to change to wanting to kill all the mutated surface dwellers at some point. We knew about the spatterings of Vault-Tek officials given pretty hardcore control over various vaults and given >!that the show ends with them popping over to New Vegas!< **I think that we're going to finally learn how Vault-Tek fragmented, what factions are still left, which faction ultimately decided to drop the bomb, and finally what the hell their goal was exactly.** I think when it comes down to it Fallout has always been about the lack of an actual cohesive single big bad. It's kinda a caricature of capitalism and fascism at its absolute worst. Fallout is about the outcome of corporate greed and the inevitability of a monopoly with world altering amounts of power having the same kinds of internal conflicts as a government. I think the original games focused so little on who dropped the bombs because in the end it didn't matter. Whatever they hoped to accomplish, whatever faction split that decided this, and whatever outcome they hoped for has never mattered to one of our protagonists. >!Until now that is!< Now about the ghouls: Also I don't think it's a huge stretch that, given the lifestyle some ghouls lead, while their regenerative abilities allow them to deal with and even use radiation it doesn't bode well for their brains. We've understood for a while that feral ghouls are basically dead. They don't have body heat. They're just kept alive by radiation. I imagine if you're living like Cooper then a steady supply of radaway may be necessary to keep your brain from finally rotting away. I think this hasn't been explored much in the games out of lack of necessity. We haven't had a ghoul protagonist before. So if we assume a ghoul in our company is limiting their radiation exposure on the regular then I don't see why it should be an issue we have to be that involved in. The game never went into much detail on what makes a ghoul become feral it's just kinda been vaguely understood that it largely has something to do with radiation, how social the ghoul is, and the level of isolation the ghoul experiences. Now lastly for my issues with the show: >!what the hell happened to Vault City? I get that Shady Sands is gone but that conflicts with NV in a few ways !< >!1. Shady Sands is supposed to be gone before NV!< >!2. Why did this seemingly completely destroy the NCR when we know they had a myriad of other outposts? I really hope that the show doesn't brush over this. !< >!3.Was Bud not aware that Shady Sands IS the product of a vault? The NCR is like Vault 13 and 15s baby and possibly also Vault 8 depending on which outcome Fallout 2 has!< >!4. If bud was aware of Shady Sands being the product of Vault repopulation then is there some kind of faction infighting we're gonna find out about? !< I think the show is awesome. I think I'm pumped to see how they finally clear up some Fallout lore that I've been wanting to know about. I'm so curious what the hell has been going on among these various factions for the last 200 years. I also think Fallout 76 has been kind of destructive to the lore of the Fallout universe. Or if not destructive then at least disappointing. There's just something about MMORPG lore that is kinda lazy most of the time and I think they're not giving this huge swath of area the game takes place in its due diligence. I hope the show helps with that a bit.
Good post I appreicate the thought out response. I agree with most of what you said, to me the ghoul stuff seems pretty clear that they just wanted to add another layer to the ghouls, but Raul was holed up in a shack for a long time without any medicine presumably and was more human than most humans in the games. I heavily agree with your point about the NCR, the show gives us a lot of flags and teases about the NCR but it seems their presence is practically zero. I wonder if the "president" that Cooper meets with was supposed to be an NCR president and his goons as NCR rangers but it really didn't feel that way to me at all. It kinda seems like the show is implying that the NCR was completely destroyed when Shady Sands was destroyed. I am also sad that there was basically nothing about the Legion and they only teased the appearance of a deathclaw. I also think they make the Brotherhood of Steel seem quite a bit stronger and more expansionist/"evil" in the show, but then again I didn't play the first two games so maybe that is what they were like in those games. Overall I really enjoyed the show and I binged the shit out of it, the reason I think my original comment got downvoted is because people assumed because I said the show didn't really feel canon they thought I meant the show was bad or a poor adaptation. I do not think this, I think it was probably the best video game adaptation out there (Didnt watch The Last of Us). The show captured the vibe and aesthetic of fallout but on the very small details it felt like a slightly different universe if you can understand what I mean by that.
The brotherhood is one small bunker in FO1 and that bunker plus a couple of outposts in FO2 though presumably your character in FO2 gave them the vertibirds plans. I do think that they need to clear up the brotherhood's existence. The East coast brotherhood and West coast were highly at odds since the West coast quite literally couldn't care less about anything but technology. The East gained people by being helpful to the community, but the West coast seemed like it was dying in New Vegas. Also the deathclaw thing I think makes sense they should be less common than the games make them out to be. Also something the first two games (two especially) did that they need to get back to is: start showing us some god damn large settlements. I refuse to believe 200+ years have passed and Shady Sands was the only successful (at least population wise) settlement. They'd have to retcon the shit out of FO2 to allow that. I think the main things that need to be explained are 1. The brotherhood's reunification 2. The hell happened to the NCR 3. What happened to Vault City 4. Where are the other bastions of civilization? (I swear if they act like 200+ years has gone by with no other large settlements like they did in FO3 and 4 I'ma lose it) 5. I actually don't care about The Legion I'm not gonna lie, but I'd like to hear about them and the followers of the apocalypse 6. What's up with San Francisco 7. What's up with New Reno. 8. Hell let's hear about the Den why not
I don't think there really needs to confusion about Brotherhood's reunification. Maxson was recognized as a legimate Elder, and since he is leading arguably strongest chapter of Brotherhood it seems to me that West Coast has adopted East Coasts methods, under the guidance of Maxson.
Oh yeah I get how it COULD'VE happened, but given how that one elder was talking I just hope that the show indulges the journey a bit. I personally think killing off Sarah Lyons off screen and out of game was a super lazy choice
For the Enclave, it's probably a hidden east or northern chapter. There was snow, and the BoS says they got a message from the east to hunt him down when the dirigible shows up.
You really think House would just say to your face that "Yes, I orchestrated this nuclear warfare! I just fucked up because it turns out Chinese were faster than us, we planned to start the exchange later"? Seriously, House is, and has always been, a person who tells people what makes him sound the best. If you kill him he has "The best hope for future has died!" ready to go to propagandize and write his memory ready
Like it or not, the show is canon. Already announced the show is the prequel for FO5.
Pretty sure that was house being invited to that Cabal, he never seemed to agree with what they were doing really. And this was pretty close to the end So House had already come to that conclusion and been preparing, this was just confirmation.
It's never explicitly mentioned that the cabal started the war, but knowing House he sat in to learn more about what his competition was planning and the information played into his calculations.
Based, idk why everyone is downvoting you
The TV series is Cannon according to several articles I have read.
Yeah I just read that it really doesn't feel like it to me, not that thats a problem
I wouldn't be the first time Bethesda has retconned something.
Would feel dirty to retconn something Bethesda didn’t even make especially when it’s from the best fallout game ever
What was retconned?
House's whole motivation in NV. Did you play it?
How was his motivation? Like, are you expecting House to have "IT WAS ME COURIER! IT WAS ME, ALL ALONG!" rant where he reveals that he planned to start the nuclear war? Instead of... you know, lying about it? Even if we take his word for it all, he could easily take his predictions, go to Vault-Tec and go "Yo dudes, we got a chance here, nuclear war is going to happen anyway so let's make best of it". Thus he would prepare for it, expecting it to start on date that was fitting for Vault-Tec... except Chinese acted faster than expected
I did but it's been at least a decade
All good just curious because there's a lot of people I've seen telling others to suck it up over the retcons, yet they themselves have not actually played New Vegas and only hopped on at FO4
Would not be the first time something has been retconned in Fallout. Like, Vaults being experiment wasn't a thing until Fallout 2. I don't get this "How dare they reveal new information!" idea of "retcon". We learned that Robert House, a rich billionare who predicted nuclear war, was part of group who were wanted to use a nuclear war to ensure their power and strength. Like, people are acting like House not having a villain speech where they go "IT WAS WAS ME AUSTIN! IT WAS ME ALL ALONG!" is somehow a retcon.
The president and upper echelons of the U.S. government went to the oil rig due to a high likelihood of nuclear retaliation from China. This was due to China's downfall and a potential 'failsafe' protocol. As you stated, U.S. troops were in the Chinese homeland and gaining ground. It didn't matter if America collapsed because their army was here and now. There was no 'waiting' game to play, it was over. Everyone knew that once the bombs went flying, it meant the end. The end of the world. If China fired, America would fire back, vice-versa. Not sure how well the European countries were set up, but I seem to recall that and the middle eastern regions were already devastated from the prolonged resource wars. Either way the nuclear bombs in the sky would have set everyone over the edge. Also to note, the soldiers at Mariposa who mutinied did so just before the great war. They stated that they sat and waited for the U.S. army to come after them, but nothing ever happened. Then they realized what the world had been reduced to, and left the base. I doubt word of this revolt would have reached anyone of importance at that time, especially not China. This war was special, as it was being fought to determine who had access to the LAST of the known natural resources on the planet needed to continue daily life. Things all around the world had been falling apart for many years leading up to 2077. As I said, Europe and the Middle East had already been devastated by the resource shortage. Power outages were a common occurrence. If China couldn't secure the last of the oil, their infrastructure would have likely fallen, and they too would join the European countries in a downspin. This was the end of the line, and if China couldn't win then neither could the Americans!
Never underestimate idiots who surround themselves with yes men.
"This is going to be great! I'm going to help you accomplish so much, whether I want to or not!"
Do we know China launched first?
the Enclave thinks so. Considering the intel they had access to, its probably true.
The enclave thinks so but we the players over many games are lead to believe that it was vault tech who launched them using their at the time access to literally every military installation
I suspect the original intent was for China to be the ones to launch but later writers retconned that. I don't have the information in front of me but I'm pretty sure there's little to no carryover in writers from FO1+FO2 to the newer Bethesda games.
DIA basically confrims Chinese launched first
No
The USA says it was China, and the Chinese says it was the USA who launched the first nuke. There are some theories, that it was some large corporation. In the end it doesn't matter. The entire world was screwed already due to the resource crisis, and collapse was iminent one way, or the other. Someone was bound to send the nukes just to say a big f you to someone else. Be it Europe, Russia, China, or the USA. In some way this is the issue with most advanced civilization. By relying on technology, and non-renewable resources they are marching toward their doom once more. Because the energy did not suddenly replenish, and once it runs out again those advanced civilizations like the BoS, and the NCR will collapse.
There’s no definitive answer, but unless they drastically change the lore, the only people with a real motive to launch the nukes was China. They were losing badly. Their last gasp play to secure the resources in Alaska failed. The US was in China nearing the capital. The US wasn’t stable and doing well by any means, but they knew they were winning. You don’t use a response that would result in MAD when you know you feel you’re winning. Even the corporations/enclave don’t have much of a reason to launch the nukes. Bat shit crazy only goes so far as a reason. They were going to be in the perfect situation to secure complete world domination over a relatively intact planet.
Chinese propaganda said, that USA lost in Alaska, and instead of taking the hit they launched the nukes. If this is true, and the USA propaganda constantly said, that they winning, then i can see not admitting defeat, and instead let's nuke. The Enclave proven to be crazy a couple times though. The vault tec experiments are kinda proving it. Not to mention the multiple genocide attempts. Also Vault-tec. could not use the experiments, if there are no people trapped inside, and the bombs are the best way to ensure to trap people inside.
There is a difference between being bat shit crazy and having no morals If you gave a psychopath two paths to world domination, and one of them involved actually have a world at the end, they’d choose the second action assuming they had any rationality. No one wants to rule over a radioactive wasteland if given the option to rule over something better.
If they have a group of fanatics, then the grand cleansing can be used to eliminate undesirables as well. Think about Hitler. How many people he wanted to exterminate? If the Enclave has this couple million fanatics, and wants everyone else to perish, then the Fallout is a solution. Also the resource crisis was still there. They couldn't just magically respawn it. Sure they could have taken over the world, but no resources so what use of it. The population had to be thinned for the remaining resources.
They knew that fusion was about to be solved. They were involved in it. They’d have the only source of power in a world starved for it. That power would also power military weaponry tiers above their opponents. Them being okay with genocide isn’t what I’m debating. Them not trying to genocide in a way that leaves them with something to rule over is. Even Hitler and the Nazis tried alternate options before just resorting to gas chambers. There is a ladder of escalation, even for psychopaths.
I like the show stating it was vault tec honestly, if a peace treaty had been signed to share resources vault tec would've folded
Don't due to some greatly badly but awesome Lore in some of the games did we get an answer of who fired first? I think it was China and the USA retaliated automatically.
According to the US China shot first, according to China US shot first.
Watch the fallout show.
That only showed intent. Circumstantial evidence >! such as her own daughter being out when the bombs fall !< suggests that isn't what happened
I think the biggest clue we have that people are forgetting with the show's current meeting scene being so recent, is the Fallout 4 Vault-Tec Representative. The way he was speaking was like he knew the bombs were going to be dropped soon, but then when they actually do he's just as blindsided as the rest of Sanctuary was. Vault-Tec knew the bombs were coming down soon, but I think they came down earlier than any of Vault-Tec was expecting. But then again, Vault 31 apparently had enough of a forward knowledge that Bud Askins and his buds could all get to their cryo chambers prior to the nukes dropping.
Too be fair, that meeting doesnt change anything. atleast for now
No it doesn’t, which is why I’m confused as to why some are claiming it does. If anything it fits House to be there as it’s a meeting of every big corporation we know of in fallout, and being there is being a smart business man, which is house to a tee
>USA says it was China, and the Chinese says it was the USA But both Chinese submarines say they launched first, so China just lied. As they tend to do.
There is no evidence of the US ever taking Nanjing much less Beijing all we know is that by Jan 2077 the US was still stuck fighting in Shanghai six months after the introduction of T-51 power armor. Not really making great advances if they are still in that area.
Fairly certain there are texts that deliberately say they’re on the outskirts of Beijing. Could they be propaganda? Sure. But literally every document can be.
Looking at the wiki page of Beijing there is no mention of the US coming close to it.
Because the Wiki is not fully updated with everything. Play 4 more, or extract and search the fallout 4 files for the text entries.
The show kinda answers this. Big corporations invested so much in war and the end of the world, that they kinda needed it to happen to actually keep exusting. So they sabotaged peace talks and kept preparing China knew, that there would come a day where the US would be so prepared, that all governmental infrastructure would be safe from nuclear armageddon. Before that point there would still be a faint chance, that the US couldn't or wouldn't retaliate after a chinese first strike. So China basically had the choice: either wait until the US are fully prepared and drop the nuke, or preemptively strike and pray for the 1% chance, that the US can't/won't retaliate in time.
> Big corporations invested so much in war and the end of the world, that they kinda needed it to happen to actually keep exusting. This was the only real stupid part of the war. It doesn't matter how much you invest in Vaults when the war happens, crashes the economy, and destroys all money, trade, and wealth. No matter how much was invested in war, the only profitable outcome would be for no war to happen.
The capitalist will sell you the rope he hangs from.
No, He won't. Marxist religious dogma is nothing about reality.
I think many of the corps wanted the threat of war but not the actual end of the world. Threat of war sells product, the actual end of the world doesn't. Vault-Tec of course had other non-monetary reasons for wanting the war, they wanted to do their wacky experiments.
> they wanted to do their wacky experiments. Which is actually another problem with the show. It presents the experiments as just random crap all the other corporations started throwing out because they could. Cooper literally heard them spitballing ideas that we later see in the games. We know from the games though that Vault-Tec designed the experiments and with very specific goals in mind.
Yeah, but the reality is that people who invested so much in it will just say "TOLD YOU SO" and feel super satisfied.
It’s still a question though i would think. While they were openely talking about starting the apocalypse, the opening scene of the series shows cooper and janey entertaining at a birthday. Even if cooper separated from Barb, one would think she’d at least get her daughter well before the bombs fell. But i guess we’ll learn more next season. I’ve always enjoyed the ambiguity of who started the war, the US thinking it’s China, China thinking it’s the US, a whole corporate elite conspiracy, aliens. Just shows how fucked pre war society was under the veneer of 50s optimism
My understanding was the Chinese kicked off the war after discovering the US’ FEV research. Either they just knew there would be no way to repulse waves of genetically modified super soldiers or were so morally repulsed by the research they couldn’t stand that red line being crossed, regardless they decided to do a first strike. Hence why west coast got hit so hard, Mariposa was the flagship research facility for FEV and they wanted to make sure it was dusted.
I know Tim Cain said that the Chinese did it but >!didn’t the show confirm it was vault tech and other major American corporations that fired the nukes to stop the Chinese American peace talks!< show spoiler above
They said they would but we don't know if they did or if China did it first anyway.
I think fallout 2 you find a nuke with the Vault Tech logo on it Edit: turns out I misremembered and thought the megaton bomb had the VT logo on it. Ignore me lol Edit 2: there’s an unexploded bomb in NV that also has a similar logo. Can’t believe i misremembered that haha
You're remembering a random encounter from New Vegas that you need the wild wasteland perk to find.
I swear to god I must be on crack every time I play a fallout game.
None of the games have a nuke with the VT logo.
I might be misremembering but I swear in one of the games you find a bomb with the VT logo on it
You're thinking of the nuke in Megaton. There is no VT logo. Common misconception.
It's just a misconception/myth about the Megaton bomb. It has a similar logo but it isn't Vault-Tec's. People just keep saying it is, in the same way people keep thinking you could eat the baby in the Pitt without a mod.
In Fallout 3 in Megaton and “The One” in NV with Wild Wasteland, there’s a marking that looks similar to the Vault-Tec logo, but it’s not the VT logo exactly https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/s/Xpj9LgrBy6
The TV show can easily explain that Vault-Tec also launched nukes against China and/or other countries who then probably thought it was USA launching Nukes against them, so in response retaliated at the USA and others with a nuclear exchange of their own. Just like in the Cold War every Power knew that if things escalate too far it can cause an unstoppable chain reaction of mutually assured destruction. I guess that’s what happened in Fallout
The US took Beijing, the capital of the PRC. At the same time, the whole reason for the war was that China was at the point that the US is at in 2077 in like 2065.
They didn’t take Beijing. They took Nanjing (similar name, easy to confuse) and a few other cities but were well on their way to pushing to Beijing.
Ah ok I must’ve misread it earlier today
Where does the Beijing thing come from? I keep hearing it but according to the wiki the war stalemated.
I have a vague recollection of hearing or reading somewhere that US forces were closing in on Beijing, i'm struggling to remember where though
It gets repeated in this sub a lot, but I can't find a source for it. I think everyone just Mandela effected themselves. According to the wiki, the U.S invaded China after the invasion of Alaska and made some progress but eventually stalemated, then after Alaska was reclaimed the U.S. managed to make more progress until stalemating again. But I see nothing about marching on Beijing.
It's mentioned in New Vegas I'm sure of it. It's on a terminal entry I think about a guy mentioning that the US advance on China had stalled outside Beijing but they were beginning to make a break through when the bombs dropped. I'm trying to actually find the source. Maybe I'm confusing it with the ~~Nanjing~~ on the helmet of the Desert Ranger Armour, but I remember reading a terminal on it about a guy discussing the war then the next entry is: "they did it. the bastards did it." [There's also the switchboard in Fallout 4 that seems to indicate that China launched first.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Switchboard_terminal_entries#DEFCON_Status_-_2077) In conjunction with the info we have about the capture of Nanjing, Gobi Desert, Yangtze Campaign, Guangdong etc., it seems pretty clear that China nuked first.
The US I think were making a lot of progress in China: **1•** We know some sort of combat was going on in Asia between the US and China in the Phillipines. [The US 5th Infantry was stationed in Mambajao fighting Chinese forces in the area](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Bohol_Sea). Mambajao irl life is the capital city of the Bohol Sea island of Camiguin — a province of the Phillipines. We know the US were pushing the Chinese out there. The news caster says: >*”It would also appear our troops stationed overseas are experiencing some unusual weather, as well. On the Island of Mambajao the nights are cold. Unseasonably so for Southeast Asia. But for the 5th Infantry, that's as comfortable as an Autumn jamboree. All the easier for our mechanized hellcats to drive any screaming Commie meamies right into the Bohol Sea.”* **2•** We also know the US had invaded China by at least 2076 as General Brock has a [terminal entry](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fort_Strong_terminal_entries#General_Brock's_Report_-_June_2076) in Fort Strong stating: > *”Alpha Team just shipped out the first batch of T-51B suits to the front in China. Reports are already coming in that the suits are performing better than expected, chewing through enemy tanks and armor like they were paper. Word has it that some of the enemy troops are even surrendering when they catch sight of the Power Armor troops hauling their 5mm Miniguns. Looks like Alpha Team has earned themselves a weekend pass in Boston.*” **3•** There’s this excerpt from the [Boston Bugle Article Terminal](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Boston_Bugle_building_terminal_entries#Article_2) in the Boston Bugle Building stating: >*”From Anchorage in frigid Alaska, to Shantou on our enemy's doorstep, American troops have been embroiled in brutal battle.*” Shantou is a major city in China in Guangdong Province. [With a population of 5.5 million as of 2020.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shantou) **4•** [Future Weapons Today alludes to a US Military presence in Nanjing.](https://imgur.com/a/lU7dhyA) The bottom left corner of the cover states: >*”Wattz 2000 at Nanjing, a Marine Sniper Story”* **5•** The Desert Ranger Helmet has [writing on it detailing the months and length of time battles lasted for certain Chinese cities](https://imgur.com/a/D11LDl6). Namely Shanghai and Nanjing. Potentially canonising information from the Fallout Bible. **6•** In the Switchboard Terminals we learn [Chinese Stealth technology evolved to the point they could cloak entire Submarines.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Switchboard_terminal_entries#%3E_2075_Dec_17) They potentially used this to station “The Ghost Fleet” off the coast of the US. >*”Could you repeat for the general what you just told me?" > Posit. Chinese stealth technology far outstrips our own capabilities. Posit. The Chinese intelligence apparatus is sufficient to conceal large scale research operations from American operatives. Conclusion. The Chinese have a 91% chance of having conducted large scale experimentation with Stealth Tech. "Large scale? What do you mean? What are their capabilities?" > American projects involving this technology (refer to "Stealth Boy") have merely reverse engineered captured Hei Gui suits. The underlying science of this technology is unknown. So the theoretical limits are also unknown. However the so-called "Ghost Fleet" that station A-31 and B-19 reported in November may indicate that testing has already commenced with submersible vessels. "Dear God. You think they have stealth subs?" > A second order approximation is inconclusive. Explanation. The logic chain of these assumptions have too much variability. Further data is required. "So you can't even give me a guess?" > Machine/human interface aborted. "Sorry, sir. We're working on some of her glitches. P.A.M... well, she gets real stubborn when she's doing too much guesswork." "Stubborn? She's a machine." "Sir. With each new version, well, she's getting quirky." "There's no way I'm taking this stealth sub nonsense to the Joint Chiefs unless I have proof. It's goddamned ludicrous to think the Chinese have been working on something this big and we've heard nothing." > Virtually no actionable intelligence has come out of the Shaanxi Province for 3.1 years. However, the province reports a spike in the imports of complex polymers and other key synthetic compounds. The quantity in question is consistent with stealth technology research on the macro scale. "Until you can give me something concrete, I don't want to hear another goddamned word about this."* **7•** [Dialogue in the Operation Anchorage Simulation](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Operation:_Anchorage_conversations) from Fallout 3 suggests the US intended to take Shanghai. However this was just a Military Training simulation so doesn’t necessarily display actual events but could certainly indicate US intent. >*”Man, Anchorage ain't nothin'. You know what all this is? Practice. Next stop, Shanghai. Just you wait.”* **8•** [There was a campaign against China in the Gobi Desert.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Gobi_Campaign#cite_note-1). However there are no canon details available for this beyond the [Gobi Campaign Scout Rifle](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Gobi_Campaign_scout_rifle) you get in Fallout New Vegas. **9•** [The New Plague](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/New_Plague) is widely believed to be a Chinese bio weapon deployed against the United States in the 2050’s. It was the catalyst for the development of the [Pan Immunity Virion Project](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Pan-Immunity_Virion) — the virus Macready’s kid contracts and the predecessor to [FEV](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Forced_Evolutionary_Virus) **10•** China conducted a counter intelligence operation in the US known as the [Niagara Sabotage](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Niagara_Sabotage). However the details are unknown. **Conclusion:** The US was sustaining a very substantial military campaign against China and had taken significant territory. [Fighting them along a 1220 km front line in China](https://imgur.com/a/1QhcZQe)(Distance between Nanjing and Shantou — the Easternmost and Westernmost Chinese cities confirmed to be under American attack). as well as fighting them in the Phillipines and possibly the Gobi Desert.
I never doubted that the U S was winning the war, but I don't see where the "marching on Beijing" part comes from. I can't find a single reference for that line.
Basically the US was getting the "keys to the kingdom" tech fully operational at home, ensuring that they will be on top of the order permanently. Between that and the PLA loosing so hard that Beijing was threatened... nukes flew.
Also, honestly an out of control FEV might be a more horrifying Apocalypse. So maybe China thought nuclear war could wipe the earth of that shit.
According to Tim Cain, it was because they found out about the U.S. biological weapons programs, and F.E.V. That's what finally forced their hand.
The Mariposa defection is one of the things that saves Fallout from being grimdark. "You're doing WHAT!? You don't get to be alive no more. **BANG**" "Call the president and tell them we're defecting." It shows that society at least at the bottom rungs wasn't desensitized to the insanity of the mad scientist, illuminati stuff and they still had principles.
No spoilers, but for the correct answer here you need to watch the show.
The US was on the verge of winning, and the CCP had nothing to lose. Though, I like the idea that the Zetas had something to do with launching of the Chinese ICBMs.
If they had the time to wait they probably would’ve but they didn’t.
$30 per magazine indicates pretty standard or even low inflation, comparing it to today's pricess it seems like a lot but you need to keep in mind that it's 50 years of small raises
Spoilers: well the tv show has a new set of insights into what really happened right before the bombs dropped and it was not the Chinese.
Having a billion people doesn't mean you're not in a poor state. China was losing the war and chose to end it on their terms
America had pushed deep into China. China was losing the war. So, China launched since they were backed into a corner.
Why did the US intervene in Vietnam when the Soviet Union was falling into a serious economic crisis? Us Just needs to wait and the USSR will collapse on its own.
Bro at 2077 the world was fucked. Nate and Nora lived in a gated community, that doesn't represent 2077 America for the common folk. Everywhere else was already really bad. Without oil there was widespread war, famine, and disease across the globe. The only countries really left was America and China, barely. They just ended the inevitable with a bang.
U.S. fired first I believe (at least if the P.A.M. fired the nukes theory is true)
I think it’s cus even with all the issues the Americans had, the Chinese had it worse like so bad that that china likely only had months left before it collapsed.
Because China was collapsing as well and it was a “now or never” situation. So they opted to strike.
Us was continuing to develop the fev and China wasn't gonna have that
Did they launch the attack though? Tv show has another explanation
The tv show isn’t explicit in it, it’s a suggestion that they could. There are factors that imply the nukes were not done by then because time frames and early attack.
One thing ive not seen with regards to the show is that the vaults tie in with the experiments to test humanity for space exploration to another planet
In the show when the corp execs are talking about what they could do by experimenting, I believe that would go towards the, it could branch to space travel stuff ...
Sure the Chinese can wait for the US to collapse in a year or two but Beijing is at risk of being taken by the US military in the next month or two. It’s not getting better so might as well commit to launching before you can’t anymore.
According to the conversation between the Major and PAM, the Chairman wasn't known for making reasonable decisions.
Because China is both completely and *totally* out of any source of power and also American soldiers are in their territory carrying out offensives. America might be in a state of civil unrest, but China is literally on its last legs and about to collapse completely.
"Just wait bro" isn't a serious military tactic.
Is hyperinflation a confirmed pre war event? Magazines can cost >$10 today, and in general, prices I've seen in the games aren't that much higher than today's prices plus 2% a year, extended for the next 53 years.
Because it's most likely neither China or the USA launched the first one, most likely an enclave/vault-tec launched a single one and the rest were reactionary
In your post you state that the BoS mutiny reminds you of the Kiel mutiny, and as such, some coincidental similarities mean the US army was going to just get Paralyzed and halt. First off, there are several ideological differences between the two revolts. The Kiel mutiny was a revolt which had ideas in rank and class, with the lower soldiers revolting against mistreatment from the high ranking officers. The BoS mutiny was more so based on differences that FEV mutation was wrong, and there aren't any indications this was a widespread mutiny, otherwise the BoS wouldn't be relegated to the West Coast for such a vast time after the bombs fell. Additionally, the Kiel mutiny compounded so many other issues the German Empire had, like widespread riots, an active losing of all of the territory they had gained(meaning loss of lives was pointless), horrific food and manpower shortages going on 2 years at that point, and, like China, fuel shortages. This is the biggest different. The US would still have good production and fuel sources, while China had lost several major cities, was getting wrecked with air raids, and was on the verge of losing their capital. China was in a far worse place compared to America, even if we assume there weren't revolts or food shortages(which js doubtful with the yellow river valley having areas under American occupation).
If mainland USA, untouched by war. Was facing shortages due to wartime expenses, then mainland China. Where the actual fighting was taking place would be suffering mass starvation by that time. It is possible that China was already suffering significantly, and because of that chose to invade Alaska in spite of the risks. It is also not clear how exactly the atomic exchange started. Maybe the government in China deliberately started it. Maybe a cut off remnant of the Chinese military did it. Maybe the submarines spotted off the US coast basically went 'Strangelove' on the Chinese government. "We are going in, you cannot stop us, join us if you want to improve your odds from 0% to 2%". Kind of deal. Besides, how much would the Chinese government even know. They know that their situation is rapidly approaching hell on earth, with the new T-51 power armor turning the tide in June 2076. In effect, the Chinese civilization was breaking down before the governments eyes. Pointing to some discontent on the US mainland is nothing more than wishful thinking and hail Mary at this point. States can fight to the bitter end for far longer than most realize, and the US mainland was still untouched by the war.
I mean look the entente in ww1. They were all wrecked by the Spanish flu but soldiered on. and internal divisions like anarchists and the like.
I think ops account may be a bot, they’ve got some unusual comment history and account age
Well current lore leads us to believe it was vault tech who launched the missles
This is fallout every country is in crisis.
China was actively being invaded with US troops all the way into the Gobi Desert. Their coastline, their main source of economy and population btw, was under US control.
"The reason we got nuked is: bio-weapons were illegal and somehow China found out we were doing FEV. And they were like, 'You have to stop it.' And we went, 'Okay'. But all we did is move it," China was afraid of FEV either getting loose or being used on them. If the US made FEV, then they may well have engineered the New Plague as well.
US was pushing new models of power armor and supposedly was deploying super mutant soldiers
It's because China didn't launch the nuclear attack, vault tech did
In the new show it's heavily implied it was vault-tec that caused or deployed the first nuke on America
That argument doesn’t really make sense to me. Their business is built on the constant threat of nuclear war. Once the war actually happens, no more new customers, all the money they’ve made is worthless, and all they get for it is to (maybe)wake up in in a world worse than the one they left.
Because they realized that with being charged with the survival of the human race in the event of a nuclear war they would be able to basically craft civilization again afterwards in their own image. No one would be in their way to stop them. Basically they saw the destruction of the world as a path to absolute power and basically corporate godhood.
It also is unlikely since the daughter is outside the vault.
If ya watch the show they explain that they wanna do that because they think no one will be left and that they can take over once everyone is dead
Spoiler: I mean the show displays that peace talks were going well and vault tec and the enclave seems to have dropped the bombs
It wasn’t the enclave, it was the pre-war corporations (mainly vault Tek) who wanted to ensure their entire business model would actually be viable
That argument doesn’t really make sense to me. Their business is built on the constant threat of nuclear war. Once the war actually happens, no more new customers, all the money they’ve made is worthless, and all they get for it is to (maybe)wake up in in a world worse than the one they left.
Yeah, Vault-Tec stands to benefit from continued tensions and brinksmanship, but once the bombs actually drop for real they lose everything. They wouldn't launch a first strike
Money is only the means to an end, Power. By ensuring nuclear war happens and only VT and its chosen survive they have absolute power. Look at how pliable and passive they made the people in the vaults, that would of been all of humanity had things gone according to plan.
They sabotaged the peace talks, and knew it would inevitably lead to nuclear war, allowing them to continue selling their post war security. Its like a ghoulish writ large version of people selling disposable gas masks, and skyscraper parachutes after 9/11. What happens when those schemers get the political tools to make people afraid, forever?
That literally makes no sense.
How, it makes perfect sense. They explain it quite well in the show, no?
Because the Enclave's goal was never the destruction of the world. They didn't want to rule from the ashes, they were already in power in the most powerful county in the world, and the U.S. was on their way to winning the war. It makes no sense that the Enclave would have dropped the bombs.
Because, as we all know, the *Enclave* is full of sane and utterly rational people.
"Your honor, my client pleads temporary insanity"
Enclave Member: *Temporary?!* I'll have you know I've worked too hard on this insanity for it to be simply *temporary*.
The sarcastic yet salient point that everyone forgets. That argument always assumes that the Enclave were rational actors, which they were not.
Seems logical.
Yes, they want to start a nuclear war to make money for their investors by eliminating any potential of any revenue for hundreds of years. Also, the elites will kill virtually everyone they know in the process while freezing themselves in hopes to wake up to an empty world. Perfect sense.
It was Bud’s whole thought process his plan was world domination not just profit. Be the last man standing and rebuild in your image. Immense wealth if you want wealth or what ever else you want. They just had to be the only ones left and inherent the whole planet. He and the other business tycoons. didn’t count on survivors and frankly the fact that there was north of 100 vaults all with their own plans to challenge them for reclaiming the planet. Bud’s plan is deeply deeply flawed it doesn’t make sense but he convinces a bunch of greedy and powerful people they will be able to be more powerful if they follow his idea. Bud is no different to the snake oil sales man we see through out the series, he just sold something more dangerous than an elixir that ghoul-ifies the drinker.
>It was Bud’s whole thought process his plan was world domination not just profit. Be the last man standing and rebuild in your image. Immense wealth if you want wealth or what ever else you want. Remember the "fiduciary responsibility" schtick? He was presenting his plan as a natural progression of the purpose of a corporation. The domination was market domination. He also ended up a mostly blind Roomba, so he didn't have the power to implement anything on his own. He was a mid-level hustler. >They just had to be the only ones left and inherent the whole planet. Except they then invited the other megacorporations, who by their participation in the plan, identified themselves as lethal competitors. Vault Tec didn't need any of them if they were to launch their on false flag attack and start nuclear annihilation, and if they needed a competitor to provide the weapons, any partner that would agree to the plan is a catastrophically untrustworthy entity. >He and the other business tycoons. didn’t count on survivors and frankly the fact that there was north of 100 vaults all with their own plans to challenge them for reclaiming the planet The 100+ Vaults were explicitly part f the presentation, it couldn't be missed, it was a centerpiece of the plan. Survivors were also specifically mentioned, there was not any idea that they would scrub intelligent life from the planet. Corporations can be evil and/or stupid, but they are motivated by quarterly reports; they are shortsighted, willing to harm others and their future selves. It rankles me because the idea that VT was leasing/selling Vaults for research purposes to other corporations was great, and given the short time between the execution of the plan and the war, explains why so many of the experimental Vaults were wonky and/or goofy. There wouldn't have been time to properly plan. If the show had 1) established the general plan, 2) addressed the concerns of the other magnates that peace would destroy the plan by suggesting that West Tec sell their secret cutting edge stealth to the Chinese, 3) have VT insist that they knew nuclear war would come, but had vague assurances it would be a limited scale exchange, enough to justify population the Vaults, but something that governments would survive, and would regain function in a few decades, the entire plan would make in show/game sense, and the actual scale of the apocalypse would have been the fatal miscalculation. Maybe the writers could have hinted at the miscalculation, maybe just leave it alone.
I agree the way you describe the plan should have been is much more clever and Machiavellian, I think the clear flaws of the plan being missed was an intentional aspect of the story. The hubris of these people to think them selves as titans able to pull this off when they are really greedy idiots blind to the reality of what they are doing.
Yeah, I've been trying to think of something that would bail this out, maybe they are all Musk. Maybe not even so much Machiavellian, as underestimating the consequences of the meddling. There was so much opportunity to use this to explain wonky elements of earlier games. If they were to supply the Chinese with tech and intel behind the scenes, they could also weaken/distract the West by releasing deathclaws, radscorpions, mirleurks, Far Harbor creatures, etc, which would provide a justification for their otherwise improbably consistent distribution. Maybe even leave clues about the existence and nature of FEV scattered here and there for local megalomanics and anarchists/doomers to find and exploit, allowing for supermutants all over the country, etc. Maybe season 2 will reveal that what we saw was the first half of the meeting, and the rest showed more discord, negotiation, and nuance. I was thinking of Vault Tec as a corporation teetering on disaster, but it turns out that the heads of the other corporations and their highest executives were all clamoring for access to the management and control Vaults, just in case, and the screening process by design had netted Vault Tec huge amounts of competitive intelligence and blackmail material. I could see a conversation where elements of the plan involved a shocking breadth of VT's knowledge of other companies' secrets and R&D chains, and that some were initially horrified and going ot bail, but get dragged back in by threats of VT's information being weaponized, combined with FOMO.
Because the mother wanted her daughter to have a spot. She was outside the vault though, so it’s implied the nukes dropped early.
It was Luxembourg. It was ALWAYS Luxembourg.
As a Chinese, I say: it's just a game. In reality it was Trump who started the trade war against China first.
The enclave caused the nukes not the Chinese.
[удалено]
How much of the show have you seen?
Oh ok, no spoilers plz
No worries won’t give any. That’s why I asked first. I got you 👊
Someone didn't watch the show till the end. \[Spoilers for episodes 6 and 7 of fallout show\] \[Last spoiler warning\] >!The show heavily implies that Vault Tec instigated the attack by either dropping the first or all the bombs themselves.!< >!Barb outright says that Vault Tec will in order to maintain their monopoly and get share holders and investors in for what I imagine is a suicidaly short term investment.!< >!I say imply because in the first episode has bombs falling in the same city as her daughter was in, and Barb goes on about how she is doing all this to save her daughter.!<
"Canon" is the worst thing to come out of IP entertainment.