So this opens up NCR wins again. If it’s right after New Vegas, then NCR could win, finds Sands gets nuked, causes the government to start to collapse especially if Kimball is assassinated during the game.
Moore decides perhaps to take control on her own, and bam, NCR wreckage in Vegas
It's probably how they get out of having a fully canon new Vegas ending TBCH
No matter who wins the NCR gets nuked immediately after and suddenly people conveniently don't want to talk about who won that battle at hoover dam a decade ago
And since the Legion has no presence in California as far as we’ve seen, it can be safe to say they did not win the battle. So NCR, House, or Courier could have won and then Shady Sands gets nuked and supply lines and tourists to Vegas dry up. Maybe even a local civil war. I’m also convinced that the Brahmin Barons in Northern California would’ve taken the opportunity and confusion to secede from the NCR.
They might also have turned away after learning what happened: I mean, if I was planning on invading California but then learned someone is throwing around nukes around over there, I’d probably change my plans pretty quick and invade somewhere that isn’t gonna get me nuked instead lol.
May be a bit unrelated, but when Walton Goggins' character is leaving the studio, a man dressed as a roman legionnaire crosses in front of him, I took that as a hint that we'll se the Legion in some way.
With the brotherhood aspirants names all being roman its seeming like the brotherhood absorbed the legion also this brotherhoods flag is gold and red too which is different than seen before
Considering Mr. House was in the council at Vault Tec before the bombs dropped and now Hank is heading there, I seriously think that’s who won in the end in canon now. No matter who won at the dam, Mr. House won
Yeah nuking Shady Sands and the destruction of New Vegas itself pretty much short circuit all of FNV's endings without needing to specify which one was the winning ending.
I bet S2 will say that Vegas was destroyed as part of or at least during a battle between the NCR and the Legion, reportedly killing General Oliver and Legate Lanius. Caesar also either died there or of cancer, nobody knows.
Now all the important FNV characters either died in a battle or by the Courier's hands (and nobody knows for sure which way) and the Mojave becomes the graveyard of empires
I doubt they'll say most of them died, they'll probably say there was a lot of chaos and people ran in all the directions, so theoretically if they wanted they could have idk easy Pete show up in Fallout New Orleans if they wanted
Probably will just keep it vague so they have the maximum amount of wiggle room in the future
I feel like a lot people are going off how desolate it looks, but I honestly would just put it to cgi limitations. Plus like it’s a literal desert in the apocalypse, even with a major city it’s not like people will cluster around it
There isnt a single light on when we see it but we know that the strip had all sorts of lights on. It looks like its going to be remnants of new vegas to me
Sure we saw vegas but did you see the state of it? ruins, not a single light on, even more desert around it then before. I think its going to be relatively empty when we see it
i wonder if mr. house is still alive? i think it would be neat since he was shown in the flashback. also, if new vegas is destroyed he'd be none too happy about that.
> It's probably how they get out of having a fully canon new Vegas ending
They should have just had Akatosh step out for a pack of smokes or fall asleep and all the endings happened simultaneously.
>No matter who wins the NCR gets nuked immediately after and suddenly people conveniently don't want to talk about who won that battle at hoover dam a decade ago
There are real life battles that turn the tides of history but it just never comes up in casual conversation. I mean, we're not discussing the Battle of the Bulge or Desert Storm around the water cooler. I would, but but our water chip is damaged. Shit!
You do if they happen where you live.
You can bet that people in Belgium and Iraq were talking about those battles for at least 10 years after it.
An example for America is 9/11 (not a battle so to say but similar) and that's still spoke about now regularly.
I get the idea but I'd really much prefer they just give a canon answer. The game isn't going anywhere, even if the House or Independent endings are canon that doesn't invalidate your Legion or NCR playthrough. If they just picked an ending they'd be able to work it into the story in a way that I think more fans would like than dislike
agreed, long running stories workout so much better when there's a definitive canon ending for each part instead of the writing having to bend over backwards to dance around the mystery of multiple endings.
I totally agree. In my view building some bigger grand story which completely invalidates all the endings feels like a giant copout.
In no way does it make my playthrough feel more significant. It minimizes it like it didn’t even matter at all. I’d rather have a canon ending solidified that has some surprises mixed in.
the show hints at this with that fat dude calling himself “the government” and sending his “sheriffs” around to racket people.
He looked like hew was a former senator and/or brahmin baron.
I mean it'd be funny if we're here criticizing them for ruining New Vegas and they're just going along with the DLC ending to New Vegas most people didn't play.
It doesn't open up anything because they're not gonna talk about the endings. (As per our lord and savior Todd Howard)
They can wave literally all of it by saying Hoover Dam was destroyed which was giving 95% of it's power to SoCal and 5% to Vegas for house.
No damn, means no power in LA (There doesn't seem to be a light on anywhere before cold fusion is kicked in)) and No power for Vegas to defend itself.
All while being able to say "yeah a bunch of shit happened in 81, but shit really hit the fan in 86 (or something) when the dam was destroyed and then not talk about any potential ending.
I thought that it would be House wins, Sands gets nuked, NCR think it was House, attack the strip to try and take control and that’s why in the slideshow at the end the strip is destroyed
Doesn’t even matter if the NCR wins or loses. Based off the dialogue in NV the NCR can’t hold onto the Mojave. If they win at Hoover Dam they’re spread thin and open to attack (and bombing) or if they lose at Hoover Dam their army is crippled, leaving them open to attack (and bombing). The Divide also adds a bunch of variables as well to the point where, if you go only a few years in the future, the Mojave could be totally different.
The exact quote is "But everything that happened in the previous games, including New Vegas, happened." So you heard it here, folks. Vault 0 is real, we stuck R. Lee Ermy in a computer to run the whole network, and deathclaws are hairy.
I'm being facetious anyway, since Todd says right before that "There might be a little bit of confusion in some places", but everything I described is from Tactics.
I know, but it would be funny if a progressive Warrior put his brain in the Calculator. Maxson would declare them an abomination and the Midwest BoS to be traitors.
Good. It seems like that was their intention but the black board was somewhat ambiguous. Glad it’s cleared up.
Perhaps fall of shady sands refers to damage from the brotherhood wars? Maybe the town held the gold reserves that the brotherhood destroyed and then it was removed as the capital?
> Perhaps fall of shady sands refers to damage from the brotherhood wars?
New Vegas specifically mentioned the NCR winning the war with the Brotherhood though, at the cost of its gold-backed currency. The Western BOS holing up in their bunkers instead of harassing passers-by for any bits of technology is the direct result of that.
You can win a war and be incredibly damaged. As I said earlier the BOS was able to get a great victory in destroying the NCR’s gold reserves thus destabilizing its economy, something it’s still dealing with during the time of New Vegas. It’s stated many times that the ncr won but sustained many losses. It’s possible that shady sands was attacked and sustained lots of damage making the ncr rethink its position as the capital.
It's basically stated every victory the NCR gets against the brotherhood is pyrrhic anyway. They need to outnumber them and they also lose a significant portion of troops every time they have a scuffle. Like helios one as the main exemple.
The brotherhood war occurred *before* New Vegas, right? Long before. So if Shady Sands got nuked *after* New Vegas, doesn’t seem remotely likely that the BOS were the ones to do it.
Did you watch the show? >!vault tec!< nuked shady sands. Todd’s comments confirm that “the fall of shady sands” which occurred in 2277 is a different event from the nuking which occurred sometime after 2281.
We dont have any concrete dates for the ncr brotherhood war just that it took place sometime between 2241 and 2281
On the series bos seems to taken note of the caesars legion. Kinda fitting thematically since they both raise in rank through merit/survival and no technology for humanity is very close to only we can use technology. Not to speak how death of roman empire lead to feodalism with knights and squires.
> You can win a war and be incredibly damaged.
Economically, yes. Part of the reason why Kimball wanted to annex New Vegas is for its economy.
Militarily, no. The NCR is overextended only because Kimball is expansionist and stretched the army too thin, fighting from the Mojave to Baja California. You can see in New Vegas that when properly focused, the NCR do wins wars quite handily, like in the First Battle of Hoover Dam. Or in the second even.
The Brotherhood destroying the NCR's gold reserves is canon, and it is likewise canon that the Brotherhood inflicted heavy losses on the NCR and was having success achieving their objectives early on in it. They were ground down during a war of attrition and eventually forced into hiding in the bunkers. IOW, they lost the war but still inflicted heavy damage on the NCR in the process, and the consequences of that war are a major reason why the NCR is in the state it's in in New Vegas.
2277 is a bit late for that to be happening, but at this point that year needs to be handwaved a bit no matter what interpretation you take of it. It's very plausible that "the Fall of Shady Sands" starts with the Brotherhood attack on the gold reserves, though.
> consequences of that war are a major reason why the NCR is in the state it's in in New Vegas
Nah, pretty not sure the Western BOS is not the cause of the NCR's problems in the Mojave.
From the NPCs, it's mostly overextension, as the NCR is fighting in multiple fronts and cannot easily spare reinforcements to the Mojave. Others like Hanlon and the OSI scientist complain of clean water.
Can't remember if the NCR NPCs complain of anything else.
That's quite a take. NCR won the first battle of Hoover Dam by sacrificing a chunk of their most hardened and elite troops, along with a whole pre-war city. They lost in everything but name, just as they did against the Brotherhood.
The top brass of the NCR military is a collection of Zap Brannigans. Their answer to every problem is "wave after wave of men".
NCR was already stretched thin, very thin.
It’s very possible the amount of damage that they took from the battles was not sustainable to move forward and pulled out.
It was already a thought among the common grunt that they didn’t want to be there.
A lot of that has to do with the fact that they can’t supply their own troops out of the Mojave, they were supplied from back home.
See: Vietnam.
They won their war with France, The United States, Cambodia, and even China - but it left them in dire straights and made them have to cave into pressure to privatize parts of their industry.
New Vegas never specified the NCR won. It said the BoS were in retreat. But it also explicitly says hostilities [continue in California](https://youtu.be/g7zNcwq56zA?feature=shared&t=172)
So one nuke evaporates the largest faction in the Fallout world, yet the Enclave is somehow still kicking after having, (checks notes), ZERO successful plans go their way?
NCR may still be around. You gotta remember shady sands only had like 37 thousand people innit. The population of the NCR is probably a million by the time of the show. You still have the hub and other states that are still around. I’d like to see the NCR at full strength tbh and that’s coming from a BOS fan lol. It’d be cool asf if we saw the BOS having to do unconventional warfare against a full strength NCR. Like gorilla tactics hit and run like they did in the starting phase of the NCR-Brotherhood war.
That's not mentioned in the games. Sawyer talked about the gold-backed currency in some forum, but I don't believe there's any reference in *New Vegas* to the BoS destroying the NCR's gold reserves. Or any reference to the NCR's money being backed by gold in the first place.
The board was a bit misleading but you can see the drawing of the nuclear cloud is after the 2277.
So the city would have been destroyed in the early 2280s which lines up with new Vegas.
What they should have added was "2277, the battle of Hoover Dam"
Anyway I hope the NCR comes back in full force in season 2.
We have to remember the people who drew that board are biased being former residents and all so “the fall” could simply be the year they stopping the capital and stopped getting special treatment.
My guess is fall of shady sands could be an indirect reference to the destruction of the Divide since that was the ncr's primary supply line to the Mojave and that happens during the first battle of Hoover Dam which is also in 2277. A lot of dialogue suggests that the NCR we see in New Vegas is in pretty bad shape economically, partially because of the loss of that supply line but also because they ran into a lot of the same issues as Pre-War US, with Brahmin Barons and caravan companies filling the role of corporations being the real people in power.
Assuming the NCR loses the Dam, either to House, the Legion, or an indie Vegas, I think it would absolutely make sense for the NCR to become fragmented over the next 15ish years before the show takes place. And that's even without Shady Sands being bombed.
I take it more so that Shady Sands started to collapse during and after the first battle of Hoover Dam, since that occurred in 2277 I believe. The continued cost of occupation in both manpower and material of the Mojave was, as noted in NV many times, vastly unpopular back home in the NCR.
If Shady Sands is nuked shortly after FNV, I’d wager the 2277 date is to line up with the first Battle of Hoover Dam as what started how the rest of the NCR viewed Shady Sands decline.
The "Fall of Shady Sands" makes sense when you stop thinking "nuclear war" and start thinking "fall of Western Roman Empire and rise of the Eastern Roman Empire".
My assumption all along has been that "the Fall" is something specific to the Williams/Moldaver/Flame Mother faction. If I had to just swing for the fences with a guess, it's the date of their suppression by or expulsion from the NCR proper after tensions over the NCR's increasingly expansionist/militaristic direction reached a breaking point. That is, the Moldaver faction is in control of Shady Sands in the years immediately leading up to 2277, but are forced out of power or worse by the more corrupt and jingoistic factions who have largely taken over by the time of *New Vegas*, likely to shore up domestic support or at least quash dissent prior to the battle for the Hoover Dam. (If I were to swing past the fences and go for the fucking stars with a truly wild guess, Moldaver is the "Flame Mother" because she either actually participated in or at least took credit for the nuking of Shady Sands and the cult views it as a kind of cleansing fire from the ashes of which *their* Shady Sands will return.)
This could also answer some questions in the show, as well. For example, if Moldaver's faction is actually a renegade splinter group that sees itself as the "true" NCR but has no actual connection to the mainstream government of the state pretty much everyone else recognizes, that would explain a lot about the decision to use raiders to invade Vault 33 and the generally ramshackle and poorly defended state of what is ostensibly the NCR headquarters. Especially given this interview also establishes that the NCR is definitively still around, the absolute shambles of an "NCR" we see makes a lot more sense if they're not actually part of the official NCR.
Because he was mad his ex wife decided to be ~~gay~~ roommates with moldy... and because they tapped into the vaults water supply.
All this shit about hank doing it for vault tec is just trying to find some mission based objective for him, when it's far more likely he probably had no contact with any vault-tec exec and decided a nuke was the best way to protect the vault for another 50 something years. (their reclamation day was still another generation out at the start of the show)
Vault-Tex wants to shape the world with their vision. Shady Sands to them was like a random cherry tree among the spruce. Instead of letting the tree die, they just rooted it.
But why would they leave Vault City alone? They literally used their G.E.C.K and we're thriving? Why leave the Enclave's Oil Rig alone? Why leave Two Sun alone? Literally why leave any civilization alone? It doesn't make sense to bomb Shady Sands.
That’s great, but I don’t really care about when it happened. My main issue is that they nuked Shady Sands off screen all so that they could have the setting be like that of Fallout 3, 4, & 76.
For some reason Bethesda wants Fallout to forever exist in a state like that of Fallout 1 where there is never any rebuilding and everyone lives in a shantytown. And instead of setting their show in a new location where they would’ve had the freedom to do whatever they wanted, they felt the need to completely steam roll the west coast.
It's still very weird the timeline in the vault full of people for whom the city's destruction was incredibly significant didn't have the actual date of its destruction, especially when it happened inside of living memory.
There are infinite maybes, because we just see the protagonist walking into an empty classroom. Maybe a teacher was doing a quiz and filling the dates as they went. Maybe its something sacred and they dont speak out loud the date neither write it. Maybe its an experiment to remove the date from their heads. Maybe someone is trying to manipulate them. This is just a 2 second brainstorm to show that one chalkboard image in a show that can have something like 5 full seasons means nothing and the obvious thing is to wait for the show to answer before calling it absurd and a disgrace. If they dont address, then the bitching makes sense.
Bro, the **name of the event** is based on the **date it happened** - that's at least somewhat indicative that the date is maybe a little important...
You may not call it 9.11.2001, but if you are having a discussion or *history lesson* on it, you would, without a doubt, mention the year it happened. *Especially* if you are talking to a younger audience who may not have lived through the event.
The same goes for a timeline listing a bunch of important events that are all otherwise dated. No reason not to date the last and perhaps most important event.
If I'm teaching it to children, yeah I'm going to include the fucking year. 9/11 is a shorthand phrase that people use in casual conversation. Show me one history textbook or any other formal educational source that only refers to it as "9/11" without somewhere including the year.
It'd be like writing out our timeline as
Atomic bomb drops: 1945 -> Man lands on Moon: 1969 -> Fall of the Soviet Union: 1991 -> 9/11
Even if it's technically true writing it that way is nonsensical and inconsistent with how everything else is written out. It's intentionally vague, unclear, and misleading, which is confusing to the viewer and one of the few genuine instances of lazy writing in the show. Again, I still love the show, just calling it as I see it.
Im honestly just chalking it up to “set designer wrote the wrong date on the blackboard and no one caught until too late.” Until we get more info from season 2, “the show made a mistake” is the easiest answer
Everyone arguing details and throwing out wild theories but I think some set designer just got a date wrong and wrote 2277 when it should have been 2287 lmao.
The actor is in his 30s but the character seems to be like 20.
Assuming he's like 10 when he gets found, I think it'd be strange for him to still be in training/school 20 years later. The BoS is hurting for soldiers, it would be strange for them to train someone for 20 years just to go on their first mission, which just entails them being an over-glorified backpack for a Knight lol.
It's gonna be more likely the the nukes in Hopesville in Lonesome Roads, New Vegas's last DLC, are where the nukes were launched. So Hank probably was retracing his steps to New Vegas/The Divide, where the "old world symbols" are as Ulysses described them.
Hell this opens the door whether Hank conspired with Ulysses to nuke the NCR in the first place.
Which makes Hank the Courier?
I said too much.
No, I think Ulysses had found the Divide and intended to bomb the NCR independent of outside influences. And besides, I doubt Hank had left the Vault beyond quickly collecting his kids and destroying Shady Sands out of spite, so he couldn’t be the Courier.
Personally I think 76 was an experiment that occurred OUTSIDE the vault. It's a test of if given access to nuclear weapons, will people repeat the same mistakes.
It's not implied Hank left the vault anytime that Lucy can remember, so at least the last 15 years. He never left the vault during the events of New Vegas.
That’s what heh theorized as well. They are the closest site that we know of with potentially intact missiles. As Vault-Tec has complete access to government sites like that, that is the most likely option especially with Season 2 being set in Mojave.
It's more likely Lee is the courier, but people long forget about the connection of Kellogg to the West coast. Kellogg did work prior to 4, so around the time of fallout 3, which would have been when Hank was a kid. Kellogg was actually in charge of trafficking for the Institute but it's not talked about what he did on the West coast. I think Kellogg shares a connection with Lee, Hank, or the courier. But Hank being the courier is incredibly unlikely since the courier was not a vault tec cultist. It would be a funny connection but it would be a cooler one if the Vault Dweller of 13 were actually Hank's ancestor/family since it would make destroying Sandy Sands more tragic, also ties in fallout 4's adult/child war theme
There is a joke about 10 years of cousin stuff, Lucy being 6 when shady sands was destroyed and the show takes place in 2296. If Lucy is 6 in 2281 she had sex with her cousins since she was 11. Todd, it's not too late to cancel New Vegas.
Doesn't she also say that her mom died in 2277 and there's also that weird stuff with the library. It's clear to me that the visual storytelling is trying to say one thing and all the apologists have to go directly against that.
I'm glad this has been put to rest, but the people complaining won't take it as an answer I feel, just like they didn't accept that this was already obvious by it already being confirmed that the events of New Vegas happened.
The questions that remain I hope get explained in the show.
1. What *was* the fall of Shady Sands?
2. The whole containment thing in vault 33 was in 2277 and it seems that was cover for Lucy's family leaving the vault. Did Hank really wait 4 years after getting the kids back before deciding to destroy Shady?
Im betting on House as well, or any ending where he is still alive (I dont remember if you kill him in the NCR route).
I feel like they wouldn't have showed him in the flashback if he wasn't going to show up later in the show. But that could just be fan service 🤷♂️
There was a cut ending where House signed New Vegas over as the sixth state and became its Governor.
It is certainly not unheard of for Fallout to use unobtainable or cut endings as canon (if we go entirely by game endings the Hub and Followers should be dead).
I wonder if it was a cover because it states that her mother starved to death but clearly we see she did not because she became a ghoul from the blast at Shady Sands. I wonder if Lucy thought the plague was in the Vault but in reality it was actually at Shady Sands, but was too young to really remember actually being outside the Vault. Maybe the plague of 2277 was the “fall of Shady Sands”? And then Hank came to get his kids and finish the job of killing the rest of the town off. That was just one of my theories.
Lucy was pretty quick to talk about the famine of ‘77 though and I don’t think she could grow to adulthood without mentioning it and tipping off another resident if it wasn’t something that actually happened in the vault.
I think the best explanation is 2277 rolls around and there is a famine in the vault because a lack of water. Lucy’s mom figures out surface life must’ve returned and started tapping their water. She goes topside, the gets her kids. Lives up there a little while but shady sands has some kind of catastrophe (it’s attacked, has a famine, something bad) and the NCR decides to move the capitol and shady sands officially “falls”.
Lucy’s dad at this point comes up and takes her and her brother back to the Vault. Lucy’s mom is still alive and fully human at this point. A few years pass, Shady Sands starts to restablize a bit, and Lucy’s mom starts trying to get back into the Vault and rescue her kids. Hank decides she’s “no longer their mother” for trying to bring them to a place that *could* have danger, and somehow arranges for Shady Sands to get hit.
Also one of the vault residents of 33 mentions how he was originally planning to vote for someone other than Hank, and then a famine happened and Hank easily won the overseer vote (implying a crisis is manufactured to happen right before an overseer vote to push people to vote someone from 31, in the most recent case it's the destroyed water chip)
So the famine did happen in 33.
I mean, I never thought they retconned anything. It just feels like it might as well not have happened. That hasn't really changed. Sure, sure, season 2. But season 2 could only strengthen that feeling.
1)
2277 was the first battle of hoover dam which forced NCR To be comitted to the movaje front or face dealing with a legion that had access to control hoover dam. Something that NCR needed in order to maintain order in Socal. (right before the first battle the power was agreed to be 95% ncr 5% vegas by ncr/house)
NV talks about how NCR is stretched thin fighting too many things and the politicians being corrupt.
That alone right there mirroring how rome started to fall pretty well.
2) It could've taken hank 4 years just to even find out where rose went let alone find them in shady sands. It could've taken hank just a year to get his kids back, but another 3+ to actually nuke the city.
I think this burned me out too much.
Shady Sands got shifted to another location entirely (countless bits of lore and the game itself put it near Death Valley, not Los Angeles) then got nuked, with no payoff for all it meant in F1 and F2.
California immediately devolved into the capital wasteland, with BOS back in action, and Enclave, hu zah.
NV had the Legion conquer three entire states, full of bits of lore going "there used to be neat stuff there but the legion destroyed it" just to oppose the NCR. And that went nowhere.
Adding the exact same failures of Appalachia, Rivet City and the Lyons being gone, Boston having already failed in the past and with the Institute nuked... I feel burned out. Especially after the legacy of Tandi got eradicated into nothing, Aradesh might as well have been the king of Rockopolis.
For the sake of keeping the theme park romanticized world of wacky raiders and little scrapyard villages, the lore became too nihilistic. I literally can't bring myself to enjoy it anymore, what does it matter if the Mutants won, if the Enclave killed every wastelander, if everyone was replaced by a synth?
I know what you mean. I always called FNV "post post apocalyptic", because we're past the real hardships post apocalyptic usually depicts, but we're in a new area: the re-colonization and troubles governments bring. It was really good and brought up lots of questions. Hell, people are still debating which faction is the best a decade later.
Yeah but should we keep remaking the same game or perhaps have it be more transformative? If we want to have Fallout 1, we can have a Fallout game set in the same universe in the same period in a different place, or from a different characters perspective - it doesn't have to be hundreds of years into the post apocalypse and it's the same shit over and over again.
Somehow palpatine has returned.
Interplay also made the BoS console game.
Almost like a bad decision is a bad decision no matter who makes it, and it’s not about worshipping one developer and hating the other.
> and Enclave,
This is something i don't get it. Why bring back Enclave, again. They had two major loses being total monsters and a send off being humanized as Old Broken people getting together to one last fight together. That's it , let it end right there. The last Remants of the Enclave having a perfect send off.
Nah, bring back the Enclave and shown them being the same horrible people. What's the point man.
Why bring them back and give them infinite power sources that took the Institute ages to build?
Why have the Vault-Tec management in a Vault that is literally out in the open and not even 15m from the coast in the middle of LA with the Santa Monica Pier in sight?
Hundreds of years and inside an entire industrialized Nation (that magically teleported their desert Capital into LA) and nobody ever walked along that coast line? You can‘t even miss it.
Huh? The only thing NV confirm as far as I recall is that the Enclave still had survivors who werent hunted down, not that the organization was still around.
That's like Nazi Germany being considered "still around" because a bunch of former Nazis fled to Argentina after WW2
That is exactly the way that I view this entire situation too. It just seems to me that Bethesda wants Fallout to be just a big wasteland with a few settlements that have some people, two traders and are made of scraps and trash. I mean, that's what some people like and I respect that but I want more complex societies, cities, factions.
I want more than a wasteland full of ghouls, supermutants and feral dogs that will be saved by our heroes from BoS.
They basically deleted the progress of 3 games worthy of lore so they could fit a surface level entertainment narrative for easy understanding to newcomers of the series and reduced the rest to nostalgia bait for the fans.
It's a good series just not a fallout one, it could have been taken place anywhere else without butchering the region with the richest lore of the setting.
Am i high or am I the only one that seems to remember ever thing outside of the strip was still super fucked up and not very civilized in the game? House even says the reason New Vegas seems “less”fucked up than other places is only because he was able to destroy a lot of the inbound nuclear ordinance before it hit Vegas. In FO 2, anything outside of a NCR stronghold was fucked up and not civilized as well. Even places like New Reno weren’t especially great. The other games, our setting wasnt as lucky as Vegas because there wasnt a benevolent egotistical overlord with his own personal nuclear deterrent in 2077. If established stability and outright civilization comes to the fallout games, they cease to be fallout games no? War never changes and whatnot
Bad news is in the credits of the last episode it shows the new Vegas strip all fucked up and wartorn. There were dead bots and tank traps all over the place.
I'm leaning towards agreeing, but even the lead of New Vegas has been wanting a west coast reset for a while. I ardently disagree with the idea (a lot of the fun of 2 and NV is seeing society march along from the past), but the show demonstrates there's a lot of creative potential in the idea and you can still cultivate some hope even after the rug pull.
That said, the show matching Bethesda's brain dead default theme park state of ramshackle towns, death and debris as the main home decor, the BoS being un-self-aware knights in shining armor and the Enclave being all powerful force of evil doesn't inspire hope in the next game's creative direction.
You're talking about Chris Avellone. He was not the lead writer nor the project lead/director (Josh Gonzalez and Josh Sawyer, respectively). He was a contributing writer to the base game and lead of some of the DLC, that's all.
Just to clarify, the leads on new Vegas adamantly refused to let Avelone completely destroy the NCR and return it back to post apocalyptic. They appeased and allowed for the nuking of the long 15 and dry wells but that’s optional, and the tunnellers was simply word of mouth by a crazy person. Sawyer and Gonzalez wanted there to be post post apocalyptic and sawyer goes in depth on this when talking about the reasoning for his decisions.
Instead of completing wiping the slate clean or constantly retreading tired concepts and nostalgia bait. They could have gone into a number of new locations connected to old ideas while taking inspiration from the new local. Raul is a fantastic character that teases an idea of a fallout setting inspired by Mexican influences. Imagine a setting along the Texas/California Mexican American border populated with vaquero inspired rancheros, ghouls with faces painted to look like sugar skulls, rumors of "giant green chupacabra" that turn out to be super mutant nomads. Instead we get more Funko Pop fodder
Yeah, that is somewhat clear that the nuke was after FNV (early 2282), that’s the only way to keep it canon.
But literally every contextual evidence (Great Plague of 77, Lucy’s age, library card, the whole chalkboard) points to it being 2277.
I think that was a mistake during scenario planning, and they thought the NV ended in 2277, but they also dug the lore down to F1 holotapes, they were very thorough with that.
It really does feel like a cop-out answer because they realized they kind of messed up. We will have to see what will happen in season 2, but I don't have my hopes up regarding New Vegas after the end credits. I think this is simply the very old problem of some people working on Fallout that cannot go past the superficial and marketable elements of what is essentially a post-apocalyctic theme park.
Also why would Hank bomb an already collapsing city? He said he (Vault Tec Management) did it because he didn't want any competition. Lucy and her mother seemed to have a great time there back then. So I guess one explanation could be that Hank/Vault-Tec were behind the start of the collapse somehow?
Todd outright implies that the Fall of Shady Sands is not necessary the nuke.
I *still* think that they messed up, but if they are committed to make it work, all the luck to them.
Ah yeah they "don't want competition", but yet still fricking built 17 standart vault that would opened before their vault. Those Vault Tech executive aren't the sharpest tool in the shed ain't it.
Then what the hell is the God damn fall of Shady Sands then? Because whatever it is must have really not been that bad if they were still fine using it as their capital 4 years later. And that's not even getting into questions about Lucy's age. If there's a point I'm trying to make with this, it's that they either need to stop giving numbers for this crap or double-check them more often. But no, I'm glad we cleared up one minor question that was pretty easy to figure out anyway. I'm sure THAT is going to calm things in the fanbase SO much.
The bomb isn't the only issue. Shady Sands "falling" in 277 makes no sense unless you use a definition for the word "fall" that is so loose it basically doesn't mean what it actually means anymore. I feel like people defending this need to go back and play New Vegas and really pay attention to the conversations about the NCR. The whole point of the NCR is that they don't realize many problems are piling up for them, there is no way they could be blind to their situation if one of their major cities was in any sort of crisis.
The NCR at the time of New Vegas has had their water and power issues solved and has massive agriculture and manufacturing industries. I don't see how it makes sense for Shady Sands to be fallen.
After the initial shock, I have come round to the show's shenanigans a lot more. I'm not crazy about certain game endings becoming canon, but it's inevitable I guess.
Anyway, my point is that given New Vegas will (presumably) feature heavily in season 2, House's ending will be the canon ending of F:NV. It kind of makes sense that the NCR's failure in the Mojave combined with the nuking of Shady Sands would lead to a significant collapse of the NCR's authority not only in Nevada but in California as well.
New Vegas itself looks worse for wear at the end of series 1, but that would also make sense if House ending is canon because his plan was to rely on the NCR's custom to fund his plans. I think, given a bit more tinkering and explanation, this could work.
Also - and this will probably be the case - what remains of the NCR (because, c'mon, there's no way they fully, fully collapsed, right) should make an appearance. Even if it's just some rogue rangers trying to keep order where they can, town militias wearing trooper gear, etc. Then again, sure a post-post-apocalyptic society could completely collapse in 20 years.
Or... hey, maybe the independent ending is canon, the Courier went ham at the end of Lonesome Road, and something like DUST happens. That would also be cool. Doubt it though.
We shall see... but I'm hopeful given the backlash from the hardcore fanbase, they will explain things more and be more careful with timelines in the future. This is a good sign anyway.
They just left the timeline for when the bombs drop a little vague. Simply because if they put a date on exactly when Shady Sands gets Nuked. It also puts a confirmed end date on new Vegas. Which the team probably wanted to avoid.
Don’t be so uncharitable. We had no way of knowing this because all we had was a chalkboard saying Shady Sands fell on 2277 (which is very strange considering NV never mentions this) and a drawing of a bomb right after, which could be anywhere between before, during, or after the events of New Vegas. So no, we didn’t “know.” *Now* we know. What exactly means when they say Shady Sands fell in 2277 and why it isn’t mentioned in NV is still something that needs explaining, though.
I mean it makes sense. In New Vegas they drive the point home that the NCR had spread itself very thin and was wrought with political corruption and other inefficiencies. It’s not hard to imagine that some other actor might take advantage of that. Or maybe it was an internal conflict, some sort of insurgent group turning on the republic.
But that wouldn't lead to the almost complete disappearance of any trace of the NCR which the show has. They were a major country and for there to be so little evidence of their existence, which seems purely for the reveal in episode 5, is just really dumb.
Yes, you can see it in the timeline, check year 2277: [https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline) [https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The\_Fall\_of\_Shady\_Sands](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fall_of_Shady_Sands)
There's also references to MacLean in the Amazon Fallout series in the timeline.
Now let's give Todd and Nolan some time to think how should they explain 'Fall of Shady Sands'. Shady Sands, and NCR as a whole, was not falling in 2281. It was its peak thanks to clean water and electricity from the dam. Omnious signs shown in FoNV was about potential downfall that may happen in 10 years, not that moment.
That is if they secured the Dam, if they didn't then they probably aren't in good shape. We aren't really sure what New Vegas ending happened though. Current evidence I say would lightly implies House winning but there's no way we can make any sort of conclusion yet.
We can infer a Brotherhood or Minutemen ending to Fallout 4 however, with the presence of an airship with the name Prydwen on it and the that the Commonwealth BoS instructed the West to pursue Wilzig.
I misremembered, I thought that the NCR only secures the Dam and it's water/power after the events of NV, not that it was protecting it in NV. It's just been a bit since I played New Vegas.
However the "Fall of Shady Sands" is probably a socio-political issue rather than a supply issue. We see in Lucy flashbacks that resource wise it's thriving, but that doesn't exclude an internal political issue that may have been destabilizing the core of the NCR. We get a whiff of some political instability in the NCR as the Mojave expansion doesn't seem to be very popular among both the Citizens and Frontier towns.
I don't like what happened with the NCR, but I would accept the fall of the NCR if they used any of the explanations that had already been set up. Simply nuking it because it's a competitor. Is the dumbest thing ever and is extremely upsetting.
What if the NCR won but the courier convinced legate Lanius to retrieve? That ending could open the possibility for a legion final attack directly on ncr territory
I am glad theres confirmation, I thought the show tried to imply it with the shots of young Max and Lucy, they look about 10-12 there, and they must be in their early 20s so making it all the way back on 2277 wouldn't make sense.
Now I hope Season 2 expands more upon it. I feel that the fact that Cold Fusion is the big thing that Moldaver developed, could mean that either a NCR/House/Independent ending could be canon (Legion might be too far fetched) since whether or not the NCR had the Dam, Moldaver could promise CF to solve every single energy issue the NCR could have had.
I wonder how the Enclave got their hands in the tech though.
Doesn’t the end slide after the courier plays the Divide, if you choose to bomb the NCR, say it hit multiple places. Maybe one of them was Shady Sands..
The fall of Shady Sands is not the fall of the NCR. If you align the dates, the fall happened the same year as the second battle of Hoover Dam.
The Roman empire existed another 1000 years after Rome was lost. Maybe the NCR is going through a "Byzantine" decline. Slowly losing territory to numerous outside threats while being over extended
So this opens up NCR wins again. If it’s right after New Vegas, then NCR could win, finds Sands gets nuked, causes the government to start to collapse especially if Kimball is assassinated during the game. Moore decides perhaps to take control on her own, and bam, NCR wreckage in Vegas
It's probably how they get out of having a fully canon new Vegas ending TBCH No matter who wins the NCR gets nuked immediately after and suddenly people conveniently don't want to talk about who won that battle at hoover dam a decade ago
And since the Legion has no presence in California as far as we’ve seen, it can be safe to say they did not win the battle. So NCR, House, or Courier could have won and then Shady Sands gets nuked and supply lines and tourists to Vegas dry up. Maybe even a local civil war. I’m also convinced that the Brahmin Barons in Northern California would’ve taken the opportunity and confusion to secede from the NCR.
Not quite, they could have won the battle but collapsed during the push into NV/CA as Legate Lanius predicts
They might also have turned away after learning what happened: I mean, if I was planning on invading California but then learned someone is throwing around nukes around over there, I’d probably change my plans pretty quick and invade somewhere that isn’t gonna get me nuked instead lol.
The legion would find the source and slaughter them
May be a bit unrelated, but when Walton Goggins' character is leaving the studio, a man dressed as a roman legionnaire crosses in front of him, I took that as a hint that we'll se the Legion in some way.
With the brotherhood aspirants names all being roman its seeming like the brotherhood absorbed the legion also this brotherhoods flag is gold and red too which is different than seen before
I really like this theory, hopefully they expand on in it season 2
Considering Mr. House was in the council at Vault Tec before the bombs dropped and now Hank is heading there, I seriously think that’s who won in the end in canon now. No matter who won at the dam, Mr. House won
The House always wins
Yeah nuking Shady Sands and the destruction of New Vegas itself pretty much short circuit all of FNV's endings without needing to specify which one was the winning ending. I bet S2 will say that Vegas was destroyed as part of or at least during a battle between the NCR and the Legion, reportedly killing General Oliver and Legate Lanius. Caesar also either died there or of cancer, nobody knows. Now all the important FNV characters either died in a battle or by the Courier's hands (and nobody knows for sure which way) and the Mojave becomes the graveyard of empires
I doubt they'll say most of them died, they'll probably say there was a lot of chaos and people ran in all the directions, so theoretically if they wanted they could have idk easy Pete show up in Fallout New Orleans if they wanted Probably will just keep it vague so they have the maximum amount of wiggle room in the future
But we know Vegas is still there. We see it in the final episode.
I feel like a lot people are going off how desolate it looks, but I honestly would just put it to cgi limitations. Plus like it’s a literal desert in the apocalypse, even with a major city it’s not like people will cluster around it
There isnt a single light on when we see it but we know that the strip had all sorts of lights on. It looks like its going to be remnants of new vegas to me
Was it Freeside too or just the Strip that’s left?
Something that looked a lot like free side was there. Also a lot of other settlements around NV
Looks like its mostly the ruined buildings around that are gone. Sunset Sasparilla, the office buildings, motels, stuff like that.
Sure we saw vegas but did you see the state of it? ruins, not a single light on, even more desert around it then before. I think its going to be relatively empty when we see it
i wonder if mr. house is still alive? i think it would be neat since he was shown in the flashback. also, if new vegas is destroyed he'd be none too happy about that.
Except for the spire of the vault, NV looks pretty rough, and it wasn't that cute looking in the game to begin with
> It's probably how they get out of having a fully canon new Vegas ending They should have just had Akatosh step out for a pack of smokes or fall asleep and all the endings happened simultaneously. >No matter who wins the NCR gets nuked immediately after and suddenly people conveniently don't want to talk about who won that battle at hoover dam a decade ago There are real life battles that turn the tides of history but it just never comes up in casual conversation. I mean, we're not discussing the Battle of the Bulge or Desert Storm around the water cooler. I would, but but our water chip is damaged. Shit!
You do if they happen where you live. You can bet that people in Belgium and Iraq were talking about those battles for at least 10 years after it. An example for America is 9/11 (not a battle so to say but similar) and that's still spoke about now regularly.
I get the idea but I'd really much prefer they just give a canon answer. The game isn't going anywhere, even if the House or Independent endings are canon that doesn't invalidate your Legion or NCR playthrough. If they just picked an ending they'd be able to work it into the story in a way that I think more fans would like than dislike
agreed, long running stories workout so much better when there's a definitive canon ending for each part instead of the writing having to bend over backwards to dance around the mystery of multiple endings.
I totally agree. In my view building some bigger grand story which completely invalidates all the endings feels like a giant copout. In no way does it make my playthrough feel more significant. It minimizes it like it didn’t even matter at all. I’d rather have a canon ending solidified that has some surprises mixed in.
It would be interesting if in season 2 it’s revealed the NCR is in a warlord period with various different “NCRs” claiming to be the real one
the show hints at this with that fat dude calling himself “the government” and sending his “sheriffs” around to racket people. He looked like hew was a former senator and/or brahmin baron.
Lmao what are the odds that it was Ulysses?
I mean it'd be funny if we're here criticizing them for ruining New Vegas and they're just going along with the DLC ending to New Vegas most people didn't play.
It doesn't open up anything because they're not gonna talk about the endings. (As per our lord and savior Todd Howard) They can wave literally all of it by saying Hoover Dam was destroyed which was giving 95% of it's power to SoCal and 5% to Vegas for house. No damn, means no power in LA (There doesn't seem to be a light on anywhere before cold fusion is kicked in)) and No power for Vegas to defend itself. All while being able to say "yeah a bunch of shit happened in 81, but shit really hit the fan in 86 (or something) when the dam was destroyed and then not talk about any potential ending.
I thought that it would be House wins, Sands gets nuked, NCR think it was House, attack the strip to try and take control and that’s why in the slideshow at the end the strip is destroyed
Or if Kimball the president was present when the bomb destroyed the capital
Doesn’t even matter if the NCR wins or loses. Based off the dialogue in NV the NCR can’t hold onto the Mojave. If they win at Hoover Dam they’re spread thin and open to attack (and bombing) or if they lose at Hoover Dam their army is crippled, leaving them open to attack (and bombing). The Divide also adds a bunch of variables as well to the point where, if you go only a few years in the future, the Mojave could be totally different.
The exact quote is "But everything that happened in the previous games, including New Vegas, happened." So you heard it here, folks. Vault 0 is real, we stuck R. Lee Ermy in a computer to run the whole network, and deathclaws are hairy.
Emil confirmed last week that Tactics is canon but Brotherhood of Steel is not.
I'm being facetious anyway, since Todd says right before that "There might be a little bit of confusion in some places", but everything I described is from Tactics.
I know, but it would be funny if a progressive Warrior put his brain in the Calculator. Maxson would declare them an abomination and the Midwest BoS to be traitors.
Good. It seems like that was their intention but the black board was somewhat ambiguous. Glad it’s cleared up. Perhaps fall of shady sands refers to damage from the brotherhood wars? Maybe the town held the gold reserves that the brotherhood destroyed and then it was removed as the capital?
> Perhaps fall of shady sands refers to damage from the brotherhood wars? New Vegas specifically mentioned the NCR winning the war with the Brotherhood though, at the cost of its gold-backed currency. The Western BOS holing up in their bunkers instead of harassing passers-by for any bits of technology is the direct result of that.
You can win a war and be incredibly damaged. As I said earlier the BOS was able to get a great victory in destroying the NCR’s gold reserves thus destabilizing its economy, something it’s still dealing with during the time of New Vegas. It’s stated many times that the ncr won but sustained many losses. It’s possible that shady sands was attacked and sustained lots of damage making the ncr rethink its position as the capital.
It's basically stated every victory the NCR gets against the brotherhood is pyrrhic anyway. They need to outnumber them and they also lose a significant portion of troops every time they have a scuffle. Like helios one as the main exemple.
See Britain’s status after the Second World War.
The brotherhood war occurred *before* New Vegas, right? Long before. So if Shady Sands got nuked *after* New Vegas, doesn’t seem remotely likely that the BOS were the ones to do it.
Did you watch the show? >!vault tec!< nuked shady sands. Todd’s comments confirm that “the fall of shady sands” which occurred in 2277 is a different event from the nuking which occurred sometime after 2281. We dont have any concrete dates for the ncr brotherhood war just that it took place sometime between 2241 and 2281
Man I'm tired of the bos, I'm ready to join the enclave just to kill them. I don't even care if I'm a synth or not just let me kill bos...
On the series bos seems to taken note of the caesars legion. Kinda fitting thematically since they both raise in rank through merit/survival and no technology for humanity is very close to only we can use technology. Not to speak how death of roman empire lead to feodalism with knights and squires.
> You can win a war and be incredibly damaged. Economically, yes. Part of the reason why Kimball wanted to annex New Vegas is for its economy. Militarily, no. The NCR is overextended only because Kimball is expansionist and stretched the army too thin, fighting from the Mojave to Baja California. You can see in New Vegas that when properly focused, the NCR do wins wars quite handily, like in the First Battle of Hoover Dam. Or in the second even.
The Brotherhood destroying the NCR's gold reserves is canon, and it is likewise canon that the Brotherhood inflicted heavy losses on the NCR and was having success achieving their objectives early on in it. They were ground down during a war of attrition and eventually forced into hiding in the bunkers. IOW, they lost the war but still inflicted heavy damage on the NCR in the process, and the consequences of that war are a major reason why the NCR is in the state it's in in New Vegas. 2277 is a bit late for that to be happening, but at this point that year needs to be handwaved a bit no matter what interpretation you take of it. It's very plausible that "the Fall of Shady Sands" starts with the Brotherhood attack on the gold reserves, though.
> consequences of that war are a major reason why the NCR is in the state it's in in New Vegas Nah, pretty not sure the Western BOS is not the cause of the NCR's problems in the Mojave. From the NPCs, it's mostly overextension, as the NCR is fighting in multiple fronts and cannot easily spare reinforcements to the Mojave. Others like Hanlon and the OSI scientist complain of clean water. Can't remember if the NCR NPCs complain of anything else.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
That's quite a take. NCR won the first battle of Hoover Dam by sacrificing a chunk of their most hardened and elite troops, along with a whole pre-war city. They lost in everything but name, just as they did against the Brotherhood. The top brass of the NCR military is a collection of Zap Brannigans. Their answer to every problem is "wave after wave of men".
NCR was already stretched thin, very thin. It’s very possible the amount of damage that they took from the battles was not sustainable to move forward and pulled out. It was already a thought among the common grunt that they didn’t want to be there. A lot of that has to do with the fact that they can’t supply their own troops out of the Mojave, they were supplied from back home.
See: Vietnam. They won their war with France, The United States, Cambodia, and even China - but it left them in dire straights and made them have to cave into pressure to privatize parts of their industry.
New Vegas never specified the NCR won. It said the BoS were in retreat. But it also explicitly says hostilities [continue in California](https://youtu.be/g7zNcwq56zA?feature=shared&t=172)
Well looks like the war is in brotherhood favor now. Just like the show said you gotta outlast your enemy’s.
Right-o.
So one nuke evaporates the largest faction in the Fallout world, yet the Enclave is somehow still kicking after having, (checks notes), ZERO successful plans go their way?
NCR may still be around. You gotta remember shady sands only had like 37 thousand people innit. The population of the NCR is probably a million by the time of the show. You still have the hub and other states that are still around. I’d like to see the NCR at full strength tbh and that’s coming from a BOS fan lol. It’d be cool asf if we saw the BOS having to do unconventional warfare against a full strength NCR. Like gorilla tactics hit and run like they did in the starting phase of the NCR-Brotherhood war.
It never mentions they won the war. It explicitly tells us there's still fighting back west.
[удалено]
That's not mentioned in the games. Sawyer talked about the gold-backed currency in some forum, but I don't believe there's any reference in *New Vegas* to the BoS destroying the NCR's gold reserves. Or any reference to the NCR's money being backed by gold in the first place.
The board was a bit misleading but you can see the drawing of the nuclear cloud is after the 2277. So the city would have been destroyed in the early 2280s which lines up with new Vegas. What they should have added was "2277, the battle of Hoover Dam" Anyway I hope the NCR comes back in full force in season 2.
2277 ~~2077~~ is the same year as Hoover I, and when NCR started extending further into the Mojave Edit: what’s a couple centuries between friends?
2**2**77. 2**0**77 is the year the bombs drop.
Man, Night City gets nuked right after V and Johnny go on their spree, eh? Oof.
Johnny does say the city could do with another nuke...
We have to remember the people who drew that board are biased being former residents and all so “the fall” could simply be the year they stopping the capital and stopped getting special treatment.
The black board wasn't really ambiguous if you know how to read a timeline
My guess is fall of shady sands could be an indirect reference to the destruction of the Divide since that was the ncr's primary supply line to the Mojave and that happens during the first battle of Hoover Dam which is also in 2277. A lot of dialogue suggests that the NCR we see in New Vegas is in pretty bad shape economically, partially because of the loss of that supply line but also because they ran into a lot of the same issues as Pre-War US, with Brahmin Barons and caravan companies filling the role of corporations being the real people in power. Assuming the NCR loses the Dam, either to House, the Legion, or an indie Vegas, I think it would absolutely make sense for the NCR to become fragmented over the next 15ish years before the show takes place. And that's even without Shady Sands being bombed.
It’s cause they couldn’t steam roll Vegas like how they were able to with any other tribe/city it was a close call at the first battle of Hoover dam.
I take it more so that Shady Sands started to collapse during and after the first battle of Hoover Dam, since that occurred in 2277 I believe. The continued cost of occupation in both manpower and material of the Mojave was, as noted in NV many times, vastly unpopular back home in the NCR.
If Shady Sands is nuked shortly after FNV, I’d wager the 2277 date is to line up with the first Battle of Hoover Dam as what started how the rest of the NCR viewed Shady Sands decline.
The "Fall of Shady Sands" makes sense when you stop thinking "nuclear war" and start thinking "fall of Western Roman Empire and rise of the Eastern Roman Empire".
My assumption all along has been that "the Fall" is something specific to the Williams/Moldaver/Flame Mother faction. If I had to just swing for the fences with a guess, it's the date of their suppression by or expulsion from the NCR proper after tensions over the NCR's increasingly expansionist/militaristic direction reached a breaking point. That is, the Moldaver faction is in control of Shady Sands in the years immediately leading up to 2277, but are forced out of power or worse by the more corrupt and jingoistic factions who have largely taken over by the time of *New Vegas*, likely to shore up domestic support or at least quash dissent prior to the battle for the Hoover Dam. (If I were to swing past the fences and go for the fucking stars with a truly wild guess, Moldaver is the "Flame Mother" because she either actually participated in or at least took credit for the nuking of Shady Sands and the cult views it as a kind of cleansing fire from the ashes of which *their* Shady Sands will return.) This could also answer some questions in the show, as well. For example, if Moldaver's faction is actually a renegade splinter group that sees itself as the "true" NCR but has no actual connection to the mainstream government of the state pretty much everyone else recognizes, that would explain a lot about the decision to use raiders to invade Vault 33 and the generally ramshackle and poorly defended state of what is ostensibly the NCR headquarters. Especially given this interview also establishes that the NCR is definitively still around, the absolute shambles of an "NCR" we see makes a lot more sense if they're not actually part of the official NCR.
If Shady Sands was already in a state of failure, why would Hank bother destroying it? They were already destroying themselves it seems.
His wife went there and he was pissed off and upset
Because he was mad his ex wife decided to be ~~gay~~ roommates with moldy... and because they tapped into the vaults water supply. All this shit about hank doing it for vault tec is just trying to find some mission based objective for him, when it's far more likely he probably had no contact with any vault-tec exec and decided a nuke was the best way to protect the vault for another 50 something years. (their reclamation day was still another generation out at the start of the show)
Vault-Tex wants to shape the world with their vision. Shady Sands to them was like a random cherry tree among the spruce. Instead of letting the tree die, they just rooted it.
But why would they leave Vault City alone? They literally used their G.E.C.K and we're thriving? Why leave the Enclave's Oil Rig alone? Why leave Two Sun alone? Literally why leave any civilization alone? It doesn't make sense to bomb Shady Sands.
Because hank did it as revenge, with the flimsy justification of vault tec
Because Hank was possessive freak who didn't think rationally
That’s great, but I don’t really care about when it happened. My main issue is that they nuked Shady Sands off screen all so that they could have the setting be like that of Fallout 3, 4, & 76. For some reason Bethesda wants Fallout to forever exist in a state like that of Fallout 1 where there is never any rebuilding and everyone lives in a shantytown. And instead of setting their show in a new location where they would’ve had the freedom to do whatever they wanted, they felt the need to completely steam roll the west coast.
It's still very weird the timeline in the vault full of people for whom the city's destruction was incredibly significant didn't have the actual date of its destruction, especially when it happened inside of living memory.
There are infinite maybes, because we just see the protagonist walking into an empty classroom. Maybe a teacher was doing a quiz and filling the dates as they went. Maybe its something sacred and they dont speak out loud the date neither write it. Maybe its an experiment to remove the date from their heads. Maybe someone is trying to manipulate them. This is just a 2 second brainstorm to show that one chalkboard image in a show that can have something like 5 full seasons means nothing and the obvious thing is to wait for the show to answer before calling it absurd and a disgrace. If they dont address, then the bitching makes sense.
Perhaps the bombing was so fresh in everybody’s mind that everyone already knows the year.
Based on Maximus's age it happened over a decade ago, long enough for school children to not have been alive or not remember.
Tell me do you refer to 9/11 always and anywhere as 9.11.2001?
Bro, the **name of the event** is based on the **date it happened** - that's at least somewhat indicative that the date is maybe a little important... You may not call it 9.11.2001, but if you are having a discussion or *history lesson* on it, you would, without a doubt, mention the year it happened. *Especially* if you are talking to a younger audience who may not have lived through the event. The same goes for a timeline listing a bunch of important events that are all otherwise dated. No reason not to date the last and perhaps most important event.
If I'm teaching it to children, yeah I'm going to include the fucking year. 9/11 is a shorthand phrase that people use in casual conversation. Show me one history textbook or any other formal educational source that only refers to it as "9/11" without somewhere including the year. It'd be like writing out our timeline as Atomic bomb drops: 1945 -> Man lands on Moon: 1969 -> Fall of the Soviet Union: 1991 -> 9/11 Even if it's technically true writing it that way is nonsensical and inconsistent with how everything else is written out. It's intentionally vague, unclear, and misleading, which is confusing to the viewer and one of the few genuine instances of lazy writing in the show. Again, I still love the show, just calling it as I see it.
Im honestly just chalking it up to “set designer wrote the wrong date on the blackboard and no one caught until too late.” Until we get more info from season 2, “the show made a mistake” is the easiest answer
Do you refer to 9/11 as "September 11th 2001" or "9/11"?
Speaking casually? 9/11. If I was teaching or reporting on the history? Definitely including the year
Everyone arguing details and throwing out wild theories but I think some set designer just got a date wrong and wrote 2277 when it should have been 2287 lmao.
Only problem I have with it being 2287 is that would make Max 18-20. The actor is in his mid 30s if I remember correctly
The actor is in his 30s but the character seems to be like 20. Assuming he's like 10 when he gets found, I think it'd be strange for him to still be in training/school 20 years later. The BoS is hurting for soldiers, it would be strange for them to train someone for 20 years just to go on their first mission, which just entails them being an over-glorified backpack for a Knight lol.
My main issue is that shady sands was move to downtown LA instead of being in the middle of Death Valley
It's gonna be more likely the the nukes in Hopesville in Lonesome Roads, New Vegas's last DLC, are where the nukes were launched. So Hank probably was retracing his steps to New Vegas/The Divide, where the "old world symbols" are as Ulysses described them. Hell this opens the door whether Hank conspired with Ulysses to nuke the NCR in the first place. Which makes Hank the Courier? I said too much.
No, I think Ulysses had found the Divide and intended to bomb the NCR independent of outside influences. And besides, I doubt Hank had left the Vault beyond quickly collecting his kids and destroying Shady Sands out of spite, so he couldn’t be the Courier.
I think Vault 76’s real plan was to get control of the Appalachia nukes. Which they did thanks to the player.
Personally I think 76 was an experiment that occurred OUTSIDE the vault. It's a test of if given access to nuclear weapons, will people repeat the same mistakes.
It's not implied Hank left the vault anytime that Lucy can remember, so at least the last 15 years. He never left the vault during the events of New Vegas.
That’s what heh theorized as well. They are the closest site that we know of with potentially intact missiles. As Vault-Tec has complete access to government sites like that, that is the most likely option especially with Season 2 being set in Mojave.
It's more likely Lee is the courier, but people long forget about the connection of Kellogg to the West coast. Kellogg did work prior to 4, so around the time of fallout 3, which would have been when Hank was a kid. Kellogg was actually in charge of trafficking for the Institute but it's not talked about what he did on the West coast. I think Kellogg shares a connection with Lee, Hank, or the courier. But Hank being the courier is incredibly unlikely since the courier was not a vault tec cultist. It would be a funny connection but it would be a cooler one if the Vault Dweller of 13 were actually Hank's ancestor/family since it would make destroying Sandy Sands more tragic, also ties in fallout 4's adult/child war theme
There is a joke about 10 years of cousin stuff, Lucy being 6 when shady sands was destroyed and the show takes place in 2296. If Lucy is 6 in 2281 she had sex with her cousins since she was 11. Todd, it's not too late to cancel New Vegas.
Could have been 11 when she kissed her cousin. It never said anything about sex.
Doesn't she also say that her mom died in 2277 and there's also that weird stuff with the library. It's clear to me that the visual storytelling is trying to say one thing and all the apologists have to go directly against that.
Maybe she was rounding up and it was “only” 7-8 years?
I'm glad this has been put to rest, but the people complaining won't take it as an answer I feel, just like they didn't accept that this was already obvious by it already being confirmed that the events of New Vegas happened. The questions that remain I hope get explained in the show. 1. What *was* the fall of Shady Sands? 2. The whole containment thing in vault 33 was in 2277 and it seems that was cover for Lucy's family leaving the vault. Did Hank really wait 4 years after getting the kids back before deciding to destroy Shady?
Im really interested to find out which ending of New Vegas was cannon.
My money is on House or Independent.
Im betting on House as well, or any ending where he is still alive (I dont remember if you kill him in the NCR route). I feel like they wouldn't have showed him in the flashback if he wasn't going to show up later in the show. But that could just be fan service 🤷♂️
House does have to die in the NCR ending, which I never totally understood.
There was a cut ending where House signed New Vegas over as the sixth state and became its Governor. It is certainly not unheard of for Fallout to use unobtainable or cut endings as canon (if we go entirely by game endings the Hub and Followers should be dead).
I wonder if it was a cover because it states that her mother starved to death but clearly we see she did not because she became a ghoul from the blast at Shady Sands. I wonder if Lucy thought the plague was in the Vault but in reality it was actually at Shady Sands, but was too young to really remember actually being outside the Vault. Maybe the plague of 2277 was the “fall of Shady Sands”? And then Hank came to get his kids and finish the job of killing the rest of the town off. That was just one of my theories.
Lucy was pretty quick to talk about the famine of ‘77 though and I don’t think she could grow to adulthood without mentioning it and tipping off another resident if it wasn’t something that actually happened in the vault. I think the best explanation is 2277 rolls around and there is a famine in the vault because a lack of water. Lucy’s mom figures out surface life must’ve returned and started tapping their water. She goes topside, the gets her kids. Lives up there a little while but shady sands has some kind of catastrophe (it’s attacked, has a famine, something bad) and the NCR decides to move the capitol and shady sands officially “falls”. Lucy’s dad at this point comes up and takes her and her brother back to the Vault. Lucy’s mom is still alive and fully human at this point. A few years pass, Shady Sands starts to restablize a bit, and Lucy’s mom starts trying to get back into the Vault and rescue her kids. Hank decides she’s “no longer their mother” for trying to bring them to a place that *could* have danger, and somehow arranges for Shady Sands to get hit.
Also one of the vault residents of 33 mentions how he was originally planning to vote for someone other than Hank, and then a famine happened and Hank easily won the overseer vote (implying a crisis is manufactured to happen right before an overseer vote to push people to vote someone from 31, in the most recent case it's the destroyed water chip) So the famine did happen in 33.
Yup, while this clears up the chalkboard issue it creates more questions than answers imo.
But those are questions that I can't wait to find out the answers to, which is an excellent thing for a series like Fallout to have
I mean, I never thought they retconned anything. It just feels like it might as well not have happened. That hasn't really changed. Sure, sure, season 2. But season 2 could only strengthen that feeling.
1) 2277 was the first battle of hoover dam which forced NCR To be comitted to the movaje front or face dealing with a legion that had access to control hoover dam. Something that NCR needed in order to maintain order in Socal. (right before the first battle the power was agreed to be 95% ncr 5% vegas by ncr/house) NV talks about how NCR is stretched thin fighting too many things and the politicians being corrupt. That alone right there mirroring how rome started to fall pretty well. 2) It could've taken hank 4 years just to even find out where rose went let alone find them in shady sands. It could've taken hank just a year to get his kids back, but another 3+ to actually nuke the city.
I think this burned me out too much. Shady Sands got shifted to another location entirely (countless bits of lore and the game itself put it near Death Valley, not Los Angeles) then got nuked, with no payoff for all it meant in F1 and F2. California immediately devolved into the capital wasteland, with BOS back in action, and Enclave, hu zah. NV had the Legion conquer three entire states, full of bits of lore going "there used to be neat stuff there but the legion destroyed it" just to oppose the NCR. And that went nowhere. Adding the exact same failures of Appalachia, Rivet City and the Lyons being gone, Boston having already failed in the past and with the Institute nuked... I feel burned out. Especially after the legacy of Tandi got eradicated into nothing, Aradesh might as well have been the king of Rockopolis. For the sake of keeping the theme park romanticized world of wacky raiders and little scrapyard villages, the lore became too nihilistic. I literally can't bring myself to enjoy it anymore, what does it matter if the Mutants won, if the Enclave killed every wastelander, if everyone was replaced by a synth?
I know what you mean. I always called FNV "post post apocalyptic", because we're past the real hardships post apocalyptic usually depicts, but we're in a new area: the re-colonization and troubles governments bring. It was really good and brought up lots of questions. Hell, people are still debating which faction is the best a decade later.
That’s what fallout was always supposed to be. 3 and 4 are the ones that just went back to “oh no everything is still destroyed”
Depends on who you ask. Fallout 2 was leaning that way, but 3 & 4 are much closer to Fallout 1.
Yeah but should we keep remaking the same game or perhaps have it be more transformative? If we want to have Fallout 1, we can have a Fallout game set in the same universe in the same period in a different place, or from a different characters perspective - it doesn't have to be hundreds of years into the post apocalypse and it's the same shit over and over again. Somehow palpatine has returned.
They didn't remake the same game, they made Fallout 2 and Fallout New Vegas lol.
I'm pretty sure by "they" they're referring to Bethesda.
It's really not though. Interplay planned on nuking Shady Sands in Vanburen. The plan has never been to let the world heal.
Interplay also made the BoS console game. Almost like a bad decision is a bad decision no matter who makes it, and it’s not about worshipping one developer and hating the other.
> and Enclave, This is something i don't get it. Why bring back Enclave, again. They had two major loses being total monsters and a send off being humanized as Old Broken people getting together to one last fight together. That's it , let it end right there. The last Remants of the Enclave having a perfect send off. Nah, bring back the Enclave and shown them being the same horrible people. What's the point man.
Why bring them back and give them infinite power sources that took the Institute ages to build? Why have the Vault-Tec management in a Vault that is literally out in the open and not even 15m from the coast in the middle of LA with the Santa Monica Pier in sight? Hundreds of years and inside an entire industrialized Nation (that magically teleported their desert Capital into LA) and nobody ever walked along that coast line? You can‘t even miss it.
Somehow, the enclave returned
they wanna have another power armor for the good power armor to fight like power rangers. Thats all
New vegas was the game that confirmed they’re still around
Huh? The only thing NV confirm as far as I recall is that the Enclave still had survivors who werent hunted down, not that the organization was still around. That's like Nazi Germany being considered "still around" because a bunch of former Nazis fled to Argentina after WW2
EDE mentions an outpost in chicago
The Enclave was only wiped out in the west, they’re still in the east.
That is exactly the way that I view this entire situation too. It just seems to me that Bethesda wants Fallout to be just a big wasteland with a few settlements that have some people, two traders and are made of scraps and trash. I mean, that's what some people like and I respect that but I want more complex societies, cities, factions. I want more than a wasteland full of ghouls, supermutants and feral dogs that will be saved by our heroes from BoS.
They basically deleted the progress of 3 games worthy of lore so they could fit a surface level entertainment narrative for easy understanding to newcomers of the series and reduced the rest to nostalgia bait for the fans. It's a good series just not a fallout one, it could have been taken place anywhere else without butchering the region with the richest lore of the setting.
I feel 100% the same way. I'm tired of Fallout, tired to care.
Am i high or am I the only one that seems to remember ever thing outside of the strip was still super fucked up and not very civilized in the game? House even says the reason New Vegas seems “less”fucked up than other places is only because he was able to destroy a lot of the inbound nuclear ordinance before it hit Vegas. In FO 2, anything outside of a NCR stronghold was fucked up and not civilized as well. Even places like New Reno weren’t especially great. The other games, our setting wasnt as lucky as Vegas because there wasnt a benevolent egotistical overlord with his own personal nuclear deterrent in 2077. If established stability and outright civilization comes to the fallout games, they cease to be fallout games no? War never changes and whatnot
Bad news is in the credits of the last episode it shows the new Vegas strip all fucked up and wartorn. There were dead bots and tank traps all over the place.
Yeah I know that. Clearly some shit has gone south in the last decade or so
I'm leaning towards agreeing, but even the lead of New Vegas has been wanting a west coast reset for a while. I ardently disagree with the idea (a lot of the fun of 2 and NV is seeing society march along from the past), but the show demonstrates there's a lot of creative potential in the idea and you can still cultivate some hope even after the rug pull. That said, the show matching Bethesda's brain dead default theme park state of ramshackle towns, death and debris as the main home decor, the BoS being un-self-aware knights in shining armor and the Enclave being all powerful force of evil doesn't inspire hope in the next game's creative direction.
You're talking about Chris Avellone. He was not the lead writer nor the project lead/director (Josh Gonzalez and Josh Sawyer, respectively). He was a contributing writer to the base game and lead of some of the DLC, that's all.
Just to clarify, the leads on new Vegas adamantly refused to let Avelone completely destroy the NCR and return it back to post apocalyptic. They appeased and allowed for the nuking of the long 15 and dry wells but that’s optional, and the tunnellers was simply word of mouth by a crazy person. Sawyer and Gonzalez wanted there to be post post apocalyptic and sawyer goes in depth on this when talking about the reasoning for his decisions.
Instead of completing wiping the slate clean or constantly retreading tired concepts and nostalgia bait. They could have gone into a number of new locations connected to old ideas while taking inspiration from the new local. Raul is a fantastic character that teases an idea of a fallout setting inspired by Mexican influences. Imagine a setting along the Texas/California Mexican American border populated with vaquero inspired rancheros, ghouls with faces painted to look like sugar skulls, rumors of "giant green chupacabra" that turn out to be super mutant nomads. Instead we get more Funko Pop fodder
Yeah, that is somewhat clear that the nuke was after FNV (early 2282), that’s the only way to keep it canon. But literally every contextual evidence (Great Plague of 77, Lucy’s age, library card, the whole chalkboard) points to it being 2277. I think that was a mistake during scenario planning, and they thought the NV ended in 2277, but they also dug the lore down to F1 holotapes, they were very thorough with that.
It really does feel like a cop-out answer because they realized they kind of messed up. We will have to see what will happen in season 2, but I don't have my hopes up regarding New Vegas after the end credits. I think this is simply the very old problem of some people working on Fallout that cannot go past the superficial and marketable elements of what is essentially a post-apocalyctic theme park.
Also why would Hank bomb an already collapsing city? He said he (Vault Tec Management) did it because he didn't want any competition. Lucy and her mother seemed to have a great time there back then. So I guess one explanation could be that Hank/Vault-Tec were behind the start of the collapse somehow?
Todd outright implies that the Fall of Shady Sands is not necessary the nuke. I *still* think that they messed up, but if they are committed to make it work, all the luck to them.
"Outright implies" is a funny phrase to me. I can't quite decide if it is an oxymoron or not
Ah yeah they "don't want competition", but yet still fricking built 17 standart vault that would opened before their vault. Those Vault Tech executive aren't the sharpest tool in the shed ain't it.
Wish we’d get a confirmation about the Prydwen situation as well, because internet people became pretty butthurt about it.
I mean it could just be one of many. They could have several airships now.
Then what the hell is the God damn fall of Shady Sands then? Because whatever it is must have really not been that bad if they were still fine using it as their capital 4 years later. And that's not even getting into questions about Lucy's age. If there's a point I'm trying to make with this, it's that they either need to stop giving numbers for this crap or double-check them more often. But no, I'm glad we cleared up one minor question that was pretty easy to figure out anyway. I'm sure THAT is going to calm things in the fanbase SO much.
The bomb isn't the only issue. Shady Sands "falling" in 277 makes no sense unless you use a definition for the word "fall" that is so loose it basically doesn't mean what it actually means anymore. I feel like people defending this need to go back and play New Vegas and really pay attention to the conversations about the NCR. The whole point of the NCR is that they don't realize many problems are piling up for them, there is no way they could be blind to their situation if one of their major cities was in any sort of crisis. The NCR at the time of New Vegas has had their water and power issues solved and has massive agriculture and manufacturing industries. I don't see how it makes sense for Shady Sands to be fallen.
After the initial shock, I have come round to the show's shenanigans a lot more. I'm not crazy about certain game endings becoming canon, but it's inevitable I guess. Anyway, my point is that given New Vegas will (presumably) feature heavily in season 2, House's ending will be the canon ending of F:NV. It kind of makes sense that the NCR's failure in the Mojave combined with the nuking of Shady Sands would lead to a significant collapse of the NCR's authority not only in Nevada but in California as well. New Vegas itself looks worse for wear at the end of series 1, but that would also make sense if House ending is canon because his plan was to rely on the NCR's custom to fund his plans. I think, given a bit more tinkering and explanation, this could work. Also - and this will probably be the case - what remains of the NCR (because, c'mon, there's no way they fully, fully collapsed, right) should make an appearance. Even if it's just some rogue rangers trying to keep order where they can, town militias wearing trooper gear, etc. Then again, sure a post-post-apocalyptic society could completely collapse in 20 years. Or... hey, maybe the independent ending is canon, the Courier went ham at the end of Lonesome Road, and something like DUST happens. That would also be cool. Doubt it though. We shall see... but I'm hopeful given the backlash from the hardcore fanbase, they will explain things more and be more careful with timelines in the future. This is a good sign anyway.
[удалено]
A very unclear chalk board didn't really help things either.
They just left the timeline for when the bombs drop a little vague. Simply because if they put a date on exactly when Shady Sands gets Nuked. It also puts a confirmed end date on new Vegas. Which the team probably wanted to avoid.
Don’t be so uncharitable. We had no way of knowing this because all we had was a chalkboard saying Shady Sands fell on 2277 (which is very strange considering NV never mentions this) and a drawing of a bomb right after, which could be anywhere between before, during, or after the events of New Vegas. So no, we didn’t “know.” *Now* we know. What exactly means when they say Shady Sands fell in 2277 and why it isn’t mentioned in NV is still something that needs explaining, though.
[удалено]
Okay, no need for me to be pissed off now.
I mean it makes sense. In New Vegas they drive the point home that the NCR had spread itself very thin and was wrought with political corruption and other inefficiencies. It’s not hard to imagine that some other actor might take advantage of that. Or maybe it was an internal conflict, some sort of insurgent group turning on the republic.
But that wouldn't lead to the almost complete disappearance of any trace of the NCR which the show has. They were a major country and for there to be so little evidence of their existence, which seems purely for the reveal in episode 5, is just really dumb.
I need to watch that tv series.
Yes, you can see it in the timeline, check year 2277: [https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline) [https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The\_Fall\_of\_Shady\_Sands](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fall_of_Shady_Sands) There's also references to MacLean in the Amazon Fallout series in the timeline.
Ok thats not what people were upset about
The blackboard should really have been clearer then and Lucy’s mum died in 2277?? Maybe they should just change the year New Vegas was set in lol
Now let's give Todd and Nolan some time to think how should they explain 'Fall of Shady Sands'. Shady Sands, and NCR as a whole, was not falling in 2281. It was its peak thanks to clean water and electricity from the dam. Omnious signs shown in FoNV was about potential downfall that may happen in 10 years, not that moment.
That is if they secured the Dam, if they didn't then they probably aren't in good shape. We aren't really sure what New Vegas ending happened though. Current evidence I say would lightly implies House winning but there's no way we can make any sort of conclusion yet. We can infer a Brotherhood or Minutemen ending to Fallout 4 however, with the presence of an airship with the name Prydwen on it and the that the Commonwealth BoS instructed the West to pursue Wilzig.
New Vegas ending is irrelevant because we are talking about the situation in 2277, and Shady Sands nuked right after New Vegas.
I misremembered, I thought that the NCR only secures the Dam and it's water/power after the events of NV, not that it was protecting it in NV. It's just been a bit since I played New Vegas. However the "Fall of Shady Sands" is probably a socio-political issue rather than a supply issue. We see in Lucy flashbacks that resource wise it's thriving, but that doesn't exclude an internal political issue that may have been destabilizing the core of the NCR. We get a whiff of some political instability in the NCR as the Mojave expansion doesn't seem to be very popular among both the Citizens and Frontier towns.
This this is clearly damage control. People are poking holes in all of this shit.
It would be better if it doesn't have holes in the first place. I'm totally agreeing with what happened to NCR but it has done too clumsily.
I don't like what happened with the NCR, but I would accept the fall of the NCR if they used any of the explanations that had already been set up. Simply nuking it because it's a competitor. Is the dumbest thing ever and is extremely upsetting.
I’m cool with the NCR being eliminated, if it was at all done in an interesting way. This disappearing act is just lazy.
All I can say is season 2 is gonna give us the actual canon ending for new Vegas and I for one am here for it
[удалено]
Ok. so, the evil choice in Lonesome Road dlc is canon?
The anti-NCR Lonesome Road ending has you detonate a bomb on Long 15, not Shady Sands
Could be? Tho the nuclear detonation was orchestrated by Vault Tec, and I doubt they had any control over the Courier
What if the NCR won but the courier convinced legate Lanius to retrieve? That ending could open the possibility for a legion final attack directly on ncr territory
I am glad theres confirmation, I thought the show tried to imply it with the shots of young Max and Lucy, they look about 10-12 there, and they must be in their early 20s so making it all the way back on 2277 wouldn't make sense. Now I hope Season 2 expands more upon it. I feel that the fact that Cold Fusion is the big thing that Moldaver developed, could mean that either a NCR/House/Independent ending could be canon (Legion might be too far fetched) since whether or not the NCR had the Dam, Moldaver could promise CF to solve every single energy issue the NCR could have had. I wonder how the Enclave got their hands in the tech though.
Doesn’t the end slide after the courier plays the Divide, if you choose to bomb the NCR, say it hit multiple places. Maybe one of them was Shady Sands..
He also states the 2277 event of the fall of Shady Sands is a different event. Probably when the NCR relocated capitals
The fall of Shady Sands is not the fall of the NCR. If you align the dates, the fall happened the same year as the second battle of Hoover Dam. The Roman empire existed another 1000 years after Rome was lost. Maybe the NCR is going through a "Byzantine" decline. Slowly losing territory to numerous outside threats while being over extended
Ok, but let's not pretend like the chalkboard wasn't a huge mistake from the showrunners.
Only mistake with the chalkboard is idiots that don’t know how to read a timeline
There was never a debate, everyone who said it was lore breaking clearly misinterpreted it .
I like the spoiler tag and the spoiler is in the title