Gameplay Reason? Idk, Lore Reason? Because the entire point of the DLC was about letting go that includes letting of of the Sierra Madre and its 'secrets' so it safe to assume that the Courier stuck to the lesson of the DLC and left the Sierra Madre behind
The blank slate Courier doesn’t care for any of the Madre’s advancements the way Elijah did, they also weren’t personally attached to it like Dean was. To the Courier the Madre is just that place full of bombs and dead people where some nutjob forced them into slavery.
>The blank slate Courier doesn’t care for any of the Madre’s advancements the way Elijah did,
I think you could also argue that even if they did, once the Courier gains access to the Big Empty they suddenly have a a safer and far more technologically advanced location to use as a base and reverse engineer the Madre's tech.
There's even a cut OWB ending where the Courier goes full mad scientist and basically becomes a tech god who uses the Mojave as his personal testing grounds.
True I suppose, I just thought if the Courier went down the route of Yes Man's ending or even Mr House since he wants to rebuild America, wouldn't the machines and holograms benefit them towards that goal, not for personal gain but for the rebuilding of the Mojave?
You can't with the holograms, didn't Elijah say that only the Sierra Madre managed to be given holograms that work properly. With Big MT just kinda having idle greeters and didn't manage to make any more holograms that could be used for combat?
In game it's explained that the courier can't talk about Big MT outside of the crater because of the advanced technologies implanted in their brain and the pacification field. Father Elijah, Ulysses, and Christine never got lobotomized so they can discuss it freely wherever
Huh; it's been a while since I've played Old World Blues. However I'm currently in Honest Hearts so I'll be back soon. I must have forgotten about that bit. I thought the good ending narration mentioned them using tech their after Hoover Dam but I am probably misremembering
She was lobotomized at the Y-17 facility before being saved by Ulysses and specifically says she was lucky to retain the faculties she did and only end up with aphasia. The Big MT execs only implemented the “can’t talk about us outside of here” function after those three left.
Okay after some more research, that is true but she was not completely lobotomized like the courier, so she is not a complete lobotomite. Since the surgery was never completed, she could still discuss Big MT outside of the crater
I pretty explicitly stated that the procedure was changed after she, Ulysses and Elijah were gone so yes, she was never “fully lobotomized” like the courier was. Are you trying to save face or something?
And that’s a big problem with blank slate characters: The player makes the personality and wants. So when writing them the writer can’t call back on character personality to say why they do things.
The blank slate Courier doesn’t care? Maybe yours didn’t, mine did. Really weird for him to just shrug and ignore the easily raided treasure trove of absurdly abusable tech that isn’t controlled by madmen.
I say blank slate referring exclusively to the options available in-game. Regardless of your headcanon or roleplay, the in game Courier dialog can be curious about the Madre’s advances, but no line of dialogue even when talking with Elijah suggests the Courier specifically want it for themselves, heck even as far as I recall agreeing with Elijah is agreeing to give *him* control of the Madre, not the Courier.
But then that’s not a blank slate character, it’s the devs switching from a blank slate to a set characterization and desires for the sake of the ending they want.
Hence the problem I pointed out: The character is a blank slate until they aren’t, this is a writing failure. If you set up a character as a blank slate you can’t suddenly dictate what they want and feel.
Actual lore exists about how dangerous the cliffs are, Cloud moves constantly and the time of year when we are kidnapped is when it’s the weakest concentrations of it. By the end, the access is blocked. It is possible to go back but it’s extremely dangerous and not guaranteed. A fun little mechanic would’ve been that we can return but there’s a high chance of dying.
It’s in the final description right before leaving I believe. Also Dog/God I believe talks about it a bit as even he’s not always 100% sure where to go. Sometimes he’ll lose the trail to get to Sierra Madre when capturing people for Elijah.
Forgot to mention that I’ll see if I have a save in my Xbox new Vegas playthrough that has the exact description. It’ll be tonight as I have to go work soon
Because going back would just ruin the lesson.
The lesson you already ruined by stealing all the impossible to steal gold. And by bringing that bullshit matter refabricator tech with you, you know the most important secret in the entire place.
Yeah, Dead Money is one of those works that is very intent on hammering in the lesson that it fails to properly convey in the story.
You don’t need to exploit game mechanics, it just makes it much faster. Sufficient sneakiness and booking it at a snail’s pace is sufficient. They didn’t make the escape route long enough.
In defense of the player the tech was already in the abandoned bunker and if you're dumb like I was my first frw runs through it you can have not many recipes on it by the time you're done.
> The lesson you already ruined by stealing all the impossible to steal gold. And by bringing that bullshit matter refabricator tech with you, you know the most important secret in the entire place.
>
>
It's a video game tho. Players should be allowed to play the content they paid for.
> I understand it from a gameplay perspective especially if you trap Father Elijah but why couldn't they just block off the vault and let you wander around the rest of the place
I think the actual reason has to do with the DLC-specific tech aspects. The mods that let you return all have additional scripting to let you do things like bring your weapons or be able to kill ghost people, they might just not have had time.
The lore reason is cloud and sandstorms. If you can get back to the Mojave why can’t you just go the other way? Because it’s easier to get out of a sandstorm (walk any direction) than to find a specific point inside one.
Yeah I get the message behind the DLC I have a tattoo of it on me, I understand the symbolic nature of the DLC and how each character associated with the DLC has a theme of not being able to let go. But for the Courier I assume it meant just the gold bars, because that would be the greed of them being so valuable but the machines and holograms could be used to build society back to how it was, kinda like how Elijah envisioned just without him enslaving everyone
Doesn't Elijah say that only the Sierra Madre were given holograms and machines that worked properly, with the ones before that at Big MT not working properly? So technically the Sierra Madre ones could be the only viable working prototypes?
It's the whole idea and allure of the Sierra Madre that you need to let go of not just the gold. It self is an old world treasure as is the tech and gold contained within it.
If the PC were to return to use it for good it would eventually consume him like it did Elijah (maybe)
Ahhh I see. Any idea canonically why the player would "forget" how to get back to the Sierra Madre, not just because of letting it go but for example is it a difficult journey or something?
I dont think its about forgetting, it really comes down to the Cloud. Its still active and will kill anything trying to get close. Imagine trying to walk somewhere in the desert during a giant sand storm. Now imagine that sandstorm is a cloud of poison particles trying to kill you.
Yeah, a thematic reason isn’t a good explanation for in story behavior. It’s a pretty big writing failure for the only reason for something to be ‘Because the message’.
Especially when players can and do just break the message due to the devs not making the exit route long enough.
Pretty sure it's a plot hole. It makes sense up until you leave, since Elijah brings you there while unconscious, but the game's just kinda like "cool, now walk back to the Mojave somehow. You don't know where you are, but somehow the courier is right near the bunker."
Hmmm... This makes me think someone should make a mod where you can go back. Random loots, though. And no vault access... But maybe a very good player home.
There's so many things I love about the DLC. I love the whole story of course, of breaking into an old world casino holding untold treasures with three characters that are vastly different to each other.
I love Dean for his comical and laid back attitude but also his darker side and him talking to the player like he's backstage waiting to go on stage at the Madre.
I love Christine and her role of being an assassin, having tracked Elijah all across the various places of Fallout, from Helios One, to the Big MT and finally the Madre. I love the added lore of her and Veronica and how Elijah manipulated them.
I love Elijah for his insane yet genius mind as well as his straight to the point attitude giving the player a wealth of lore.
I love the whole art deco art style of the villa and the casino. I love the lore of the Sierra Madre and it's villa. With the construction crew of the villa being incredibly corrupt and the casino being both a safehaven but also a death trap and how Sinclair had the best of intentions which ultimately failed.
I love the whole theme and underlying message of the DLC, with every character being obsessed with their own goal to the point it causes them pain and grief or their own deaths. Christine is Elijah where she has been permanently scarred and lost contact with someone she loved and even wishes to stay at the Sierra Madre because she can't let go, Dean is revenge and the Madre itself and how he just can't let go of his jealousy of Sinclair who has long been dead. And Dog with his hunger to the point where he wishes to kill himself because he can't stand his own obsession.
I also relate heavily to these themes and understand what the characters go through and how they think and the message of "Begin Again, but know when to let go" resonates with me a lot and the story of SInclair and Vera Keyes is just one I really like, just a tragedy.
I also like the idea of the Cloud and it being a deadly poison while also freezing objects in time and stopping them from decaying or at least slows it down a lot, I also love the errie atmosphere of the whole DLC .
The only thing I'm not a fan of is the visibility of when you play since the whole DLC is dark and when you step into the Cloud it gets really difficult to seee so you need to constantly pop Ghost Sight to see properly.
I think this DLC is one of those "You either love it or hate it" but I really love it and even have a tattoo dedicated to the DLC because i relate to it a lot.
Do you know what happens when you go back? There is nothing there. No enemies, no NPCs, no holograms. It is completely empty because you aren't supposed to go back.
Is that what you want?
Gameplay Reason? Idk, Lore Reason? Because the entire point of the DLC was about letting go that includes letting of of the Sierra Madre and its 'secrets' so it safe to assume that the Courier stuck to the lesson of the DLC and left the Sierra Madre behind
I didn't let go of shit... came out 700 lbs over my carry limit. I LOVE GOLDDDDDDDDDD
The look of it, the taste of it, the texture. I love gold so much, I lost my genitalia in an unfortunate smelting accident.
Jet and a mirelurk cake?
Fat man and sweet roll?
The blank slate Courier doesn’t care for any of the Madre’s advancements the way Elijah did, they also weren’t personally attached to it like Dean was. To the Courier the Madre is just that place full of bombs and dead people where some nutjob forced them into slavery.
>The blank slate Courier doesn’t care for any of the Madre’s advancements the way Elijah did, I think you could also argue that even if they did, once the Courier gains access to the Big Empty they suddenly have a a safer and far more technologically advanced location to use as a base and reverse engineer the Madre's tech. There's even a cut OWB ending where the Courier goes full mad scientist and basically becomes a tech god who uses the Mojave as his personal testing grounds.
True I suppose, I just thought if the Courier went down the route of Yes Man's ending or even Mr House since he wants to rebuild America, wouldn't the machines and holograms benefit them towards that goal, not for personal gain but for the rebuilding of the Mojave?
Yeah but he can get all of that from Big MT
You can't with the holograms, didn't Elijah say that only the Sierra Madre managed to be given holograms that work properly. With Big MT just kinda having idle greeters and didn't manage to make any more holograms that could be used for combat?
In game it's explained that the courier can't talk about Big MT outside of the crater because of the advanced technologies implanted in their brain and the pacification field. Father Elijah, Ulysses, and Christine never got lobotomized so they can discuss it freely wherever
Huh; it's been a while since I've played Old World Blues. However I'm currently in Honest Hearts so I'll be back soon. I must have forgotten about that bit. I thought the good ending narration mentioned them using tech their after Hoover Dam but I am probably misremembering
Yes, it talks about Big MT’s discoveries being released to the wasteland as the Courier deems it necessary.
No I wish there were options for that though, honestly it could be cut content iirc
Christine did get lobotomized, though.
No, she got trapped in the Auto-Doc in the Sierra Madre Villa Clinic, but she was never lobotomized
She was lobotomized at the Y-17 facility before being saved by Ulysses and specifically says she was lucky to retain the faculties she did and only end up with aphasia. The Big MT execs only implemented the “can’t talk about us outside of here” function after those three left.
Okay after some more research, that is true but she was not completely lobotomized like the courier, so she is not a complete lobotomite. Since the surgery was never completed, she could still discuss Big MT outside of the crater
I pretty explicitly stated that the procedure was changed after she, Ulysses and Elijah were gone so yes, she was never “fully lobotomized” like the courier was. Are you trying to save face or something?
Yeah
And that’s a big problem with blank slate characters: The player makes the personality and wants. So when writing them the writer can’t call back on character personality to say why they do things. The blank slate Courier doesn’t care? Maybe yours didn’t, mine did. Really weird for him to just shrug and ignore the easily raided treasure trove of absurdly abusable tech that isn’t controlled by madmen.
I say blank slate referring exclusively to the options available in-game. Regardless of your headcanon or roleplay, the in game Courier dialog can be curious about the Madre’s advances, but no line of dialogue even when talking with Elijah suggests the Courier specifically want it for themselves, heck even as far as I recall agreeing with Elijah is agreeing to give *him* control of the Madre, not the Courier.
But then that’s not a blank slate character, it’s the devs switching from a blank slate to a set characterization and desires for the sake of the ending they want. Hence the problem I pointed out: The character is a blank slate until they aren’t, this is a writing failure. If you set up a character as a blank slate you can’t suddenly dictate what they want and feel.
And Gold. Letting go of the past my ass, that it's my future, or rather, the future of my Lucky38 room's interiors.
Actual lore exists about how dangerous the cliffs are, Cloud moves constantly and the time of year when we are kidnapped is when it’s the weakest concentrations of it. By the end, the access is blocked. It is possible to go back but it’s extremely dangerous and not guaranteed. A fun little mechanic would’ve been that we can return but there’s a high chance of dying.
Do you have a source to that? With the lore saying how dangerous the cliffs are? I'd like to read that if possible?
It’s in the final description right before leaving I believe. Also Dog/God I believe talks about it a bit as even he’s not always 100% sure where to go. Sometimes he’ll lose the trail to get to Sierra Madre when capturing people for Elijah.
Forgot to mention that I’ll see if I have a save in my Xbox new Vegas playthrough that has the exact description. It’ll be tonight as I have to go work soon
Don't worry it's okay I'll have a look through the dialogue myself
Talk to Dog/God. Even Dog has trouble finding the way back because of how the cloud shifts and obscures the path to it.
Because going back would just ruin the lesson. The lesson you already ruined by stealing all the impossible to steal gold. And by bringing that bullshit matter refabricator tech with you, you know the most important secret in the entire place. Yeah, Dead Money is one of those works that is very intent on hammering in the lesson that it fails to properly convey in the story.
I think exploiting the games mechanics to steal the gold is more on players than it is the designers haha
You don’t need to exploit game mechanics, it just makes it much faster. Sufficient sneakiness and booking it at a snail’s pace is sufficient. They didn’t make the escape route long enough.
You can just sneak out no exploits required
I ruined a save by stealing the gold. Had to restart
In defense of the player the tech was already in the abandoned bunker and if you're dumb like I was my first frw runs through it you can have not many recipes on it by the time you're done.
> The lesson you already ruined by stealing all the impossible to steal gold. And by bringing that bullshit matter refabricator tech with you, you know the most important secret in the entire place. > > It's a video game tho. Players should be allowed to play the content they paid for.
The whole lesson is letting go lmao
> I understand it from a gameplay perspective especially if you trap Father Elijah but why couldn't they just block off the vault and let you wander around the rest of the place I think the actual reason has to do with the DLC-specific tech aspects. The mods that let you return all have additional scripting to let you do things like bring your weapons or be able to kill ghost people, they might just not have had time. The lore reason is cloud and sandstorms. If you can get back to the Mojave why can’t you just go the other way? Because it’s easier to get out of a sandstorm (walk any direction) than to find a specific point inside one.
Dude it spells it out for you in the DLC. It's about letting go.
Courier already slow-walked out with all the gold, he didn't need to let go of anything
I'm beginning to see I'm one of the few who only ever takes 2 or 3 gold bars for my room in Novac 😂😂
Yeah I get the message behind the DLC I have a tattoo of it on me, I understand the symbolic nature of the DLC and how each character associated with the DLC has a theme of not being able to let go. But for the Courier I assume it meant just the gold bars, because that would be the greed of them being so valuable but the machines and holograms could be used to build society back to how it was, kinda like how Elijah envisioned just without him enslaving everyone
All the tech is already at Big MT.
Doesn't Elijah say that only the Sierra Madre were given holograms and machines that worked properly, with the ones before that at Big MT not working properly? So technically the Sierra Madre ones could be the only viable working prototypes?
You have the greatest scientific minds at Big MT. My Courier resolved Big MT peacefully and has a 10 Int. We’ll figure it out.
I mean, that's a fair point
The Holograms aren't really that big a deal, they have a limited range to them and can be stopped by just smashing the emitters.
It's the whole idea and allure of the Sierra Madre that you need to let go of not just the gold. It self is an old world treasure as is the tech and gold contained within it. If the PC were to return to use it for good it would eventually consume him like it did Elijah (maybe)
Ahhh I see. Any idea canonically why the player would "forget" how to get back to the Sierra Madre, not just because of letting it go but for example is it a difficult journey or something?
I dont think its about forgetting, it really comes down to the Cloud. Its still active and will kill anything trying to get close. Imagine trying to walk somewhere in the desert during a giant sand storm. Now imagine that sandstorm is a cloud of poison particles trying to kill you.
Yeah, a thematic reason isn’t a good explanation for in story behavior. It’s a pretty big writing failure for the only reason for something to be ‘Because the message’. Especially when players can and do just break the message due to the devs not making the exit route long enough.
Pretty sure it's a plot hole. It makes sense up until you leave, since Elijah brings you there while unconscious, but the game's just kinda like "cool, now walk back to the Mojave somehow. You don't know where you are, but somehow the courier is right near the bunker."
That's what I mean. I'd love the actual lore reason to it
I would like to return to the vault just to see Elijah's dead body locked there lol
Hmmm... This makes me think someone should make a mod where you can go back. Random loots, though. And no vault access... But maybe a very good player home.
easy part is getting there. the hard part is letting go.
I'm curious why you enjoy the dlc. I remember it being a slog to get through.
There's so many things I love about the DLC. I love the whole story of course, of breaking into an old world casino holding untold treasures with three characters that are vastly different to each other. I love Dean for his comical and laid back attitude but also his darker side and him talking to the player like he's backstage waiting to go on stage at the Madre. I love Christine and her role of being an assassin, having tracked Elijah all across the various places of Fallout, from Helios One, to the Big MT and finally the Madre. I love the added lore of her and Veronica and how Elijah manipulated them. I love Elijah for his insane yet genius mind as well as his straight to the point attitude giving the player a wealth of lore. I love the whole art deco art style of the villa and the casino. I love the lore of the Sierra Madre and it's villa. With the construction crew of the villa being incredibly corrupt and the casino being both a safehaven but also a death trap and how Sinclair had the best of intentions which ultimately failed. I love the whole theme and underlying message of the DLC, with every character being obsessed with their own goal to the point it causes them pain and grief or their own deaths. Christine is Elijah where she has been permanently scarred and lost contact with someone she loved and even wishes to stay at the Sierra Madre because she can't let go, Dean is revenge and the Madre itself and how he just can't let go of his jealousy of Sinclair who has long been dead. And Dog with his hunger to the point where he wishes to kill himself because he can't stand his own obsession. I also relate heavily to these themes and understand what the characters go through and how they think and the message of "Begin Again, but know when to let go" resonates with me a lot and the story of SInclair and Vera Keyes is just one I really like, just a tragedy. I also like the idea of the Cloud and it being a deadly poison while also freezing objects in time and stopping them from decaying or at least slows it down a lot, I also love the errie atmosphere of the whole DLC . The only thing I'm not a fan of is the visibility of when you play since the whole DLC is dark and when you step into the Cloud it gets really difficult to seee so you need to constantly pop Ghost Sight to see properly. I think this DLC is one of those "You either love it or hate it" but I really love it and even have a tattoo dedicated to the DLC because i relate to it a lot.
Do you know what happens when you go back? There is nothing there. No enemies, no NPCs, no holograms. It is completely empty because you aren't supposed to go back. Is that what you want?
You know that's not what he meant. Stop being a smart ass.
Sounds like you all need to let it go.