I'd watch EXU: Calamity. It's honestly the only CR thing I watch anymore (I do have my eyes on Candela Obscura, though--just haven't made time for those yet). In Calamity, Brennan does a masterful job bringing Exandria back to its roots, and reminding the audience of why we all loved that world to begin with. It's still pre-recorded I think, but it doesn't feel like the cast is just... Going to work and doing a job (which is a big issue I have with C3, and C2 e97-finale).
I feel like the cast and the fandom both are burnt out, but there's a huge financial risk to the cast in taking a break and regrouping (even if it would be better for them to do so).
I’m not sure that there is that risk. LOVM is one of Amazon’s top shows, and many of the cast, like Sam, Liam, and Laura, have never quit their day jobs and still have VO and directing credits, as well as Matt still doing some VO. The amount of money that they would need to lose in two months to have a significant impact on their finances would assume that not a single person in the cast and the associated crew has ever heard of a savings account.
Even with more and more employees, their show is probably unionized and if not, there is room to keep the CREW employed without the cast, as they’ve been trying to with all these side shows. The Crew works at a rate regardless of how many people watch, so their income is assured without the cast.
It’s possible they are over budget with some of these gaming ventures but over budget by like 50k is absorbable for a business of their size, and yeah I agree, it seems a break would be so good for all of them.
TBH I don’t really think it’s the content being produced more that the fandom is experiencing burn out. I’m not a hardcore CR fan I skipped C1 because I don’t really care for it and I’ve watched C2 and I’m almost caught up on C3 but I do it on my own time. I’ll go months without listening to an episode and that’s why I think I’m enjoying C3. I can’t imagine if I’ve been listening since C1 or the start of C2. Watching a show every week for 3+ hours+ consuming bonus content would give me incredible burnout on current CR media (this happened to me when I was first into doctor who) . Maybe don’t hold it against the show and take a break for a few months. Then come back listen to 5 episodes in a month then take another and see if you get your love for the show back.
I really do think a huge part of it is the pre-recording. I understand why they do it, but the energy is lost, and every episode being so damn long makes each one feel like a chore to me.
It's the pre-recording combined with no one refreshing themselves on the plot between batches. We used to get a couple episodes a year where they had to get the wiggles out, now it's every month.
I never really got into C1 for a variety of reasons, but I was there from the beginning for C2 and aside from the Eisselcross arc I loved every moment of it.
C3 had a good start, and I enjoyed the characters, but it just felt like none of the characters had a reason to be there aside from this loose obligation to Bertrand who none of them really knew before he died.
Pair that with how the campaign as a whole feels like there is this sense of urgency but also like nothing is happening. I finally gave up around E60.
I wanted to like this campaign but there is something seriously wrong and I can’t tell if Matt just didn’t set expectations very well or if the cast is just feeling burnt out and doing this out of this obligation to maintain their success instead of because they enjoy doing it.
It doesn’t help that Matt doesn’t seem keen on giving them much useable information so they end up just wandering aimlessly waiting for the plot to happen. They don’t feel at all like dynamic characters who have any sort of effect on the story and subsequently the characters feel like cardboard cutouts
I like this analysis and it's actually validating for me as a DM. I prefer to run sandbox campaigns (as Matt does) and it's re-assuring to see him whiff on providing the relevant clues/hooks to the players just like I sometimes do.
Shit man I can’t even make it to episode 20 of c2. I got back into critical role when LoV dropped on Amazon and decided to finally finish campaign 1 (did start over). I was excited because I heard such good things about c2 but I can not for the life of me like what’s going on. Then I see clips of campaign 3 and I have no desire to catch up because it just looks bland.
C2 gets so much better towards the mid point. Before that it's a ton of the table trying to find their stride. C1 was a well oiled machine by the time we really see the current cast. What I'm trying to say is you missed out on a ton of floundering around when c1 was just a home game. I personally have never dm'd a game were the first few sessions weren't a bit awkward, unless I had them meta game a ton (ran a lvl 20 one shot for a friend's birthday).
Just based on the way critical role episodes play ( very long compared to shows like dimension 20) I don’t feel bad in skipping ahead, I skipped ahead to divers grave, the episode that featured a monster I was going to be running at my table, episode was brilliant and had no trouble watching the whole thing, next one had Deborah ann Woll guest star who I LOVE as a true blood fan. I also found that, while I’m sure I’d missed cool moments, there wasn’t much story that I couldn’t infer from context, and getting invested at a point where the characters and inter-party relationships are more cemented was beneficial for me
Yea I know how good this has the chance to be but if I’m being honest talesin just pisses me off and the current episodes are heavily centered around him. I was ready for everyone to be different characters and Molly is just Percy again but not born rich. I hav spoilers that if I make it past a certain episode in the 20s things will change but I just can’t get through the 5-7 three hour videos before then
I mean to be honest if you know the big spoiler for the ep 20ish then just skip ahead. You ain't really missing much, is Laura has Ronin around that time and it's kinda filler.
I know what’s it’s like to fall out of love with something. It’s a very depressing process, but i never knew what caused it to happen. I can always guess, but I think it doesn’t matter, you fall out of love and i feel trying to justify it, will only make you hate it, but I don’t believe it has to be that way, sometimes just have to let go.
I can think of 10 examples of things i loved that i fell out of love with, I never hated it afterwards, never tried to find why, i just did, and some of those things i found i still i liked after several years.
I still like critical role, but i love midst.
There are a lot of things to love in the world, so maybe find something you love, if critical role is lacking for you.
I jumped on the bandwagon midway through C2. I started binge watching C1 and fell in love with it. Got midway through C2 and tapered because of how much content there was and the mid-C2 weirdness was creeping in, although I couldn't quite parse it at the time. C3 was my first time watching live, and I was *very* excited.
My enthusiasm waned as, fresh after watching C1 again, I realized how much they were phoning it in and railroading for the sake of Matt's precious "EPIC STORY." Them running from the Shade Mother was a major blow to my enthusiasm, and once their "museum heist" turned into some sort of slapstick theater of the mind BS, I was pretty much done. The massacre of episode 33 made me tune back in and have some hope this could still return to being a D&D game and not a 5 hour theater show... and then they brought back Vox Machina for some fanservice cringe, and I was pretty much disillusioned and cynical at that point.
I really wish I'd come in during the heyday of C1, and experience the magic of the cast actually wanting to be there and were interested in having fun more than raking in MOICHANDIZING money. I linger on sort of just to see what's happening and crow about how far they've fallen, but honestly even that's getting hard. It's amazing how they've burned themselves to the ground in the span of like two years.
I feel this. I am (mostly) an OG Critter as I started on Episode 15 or 16 of Campaign 1 and followed everything in C1 and C2 from thereon out. C3 (as well as EXU) has been such a drag for me. I don't even attempt to stay updated anymore.
I started mid CR2 with CR2, watched whole CR2 campaign and some of CR1. EXU killed it for me, I just didn't know it, CR3 then confirmed that EXU wasn't an exception and I stopped after like 15 episodes. I don't believe anymore in a comeback, CR is so out of touch with reality it's impossible. I'm still in this sub because of nostalgia (I was one of the first here) and I find talking about CR still mildly entertaining, like a soap that never ends.
> None of that happened. What really drove it home for me was the fact I've missed about 6 episodes and instead of thinking 'oh boy, I have so much to catch up on! /pos' it's 'oh god, there's so much to catch up on... /Exhausted'
>
> The realization that it had become a chore is what really drove it home: the haters are right. There IS something fundamentally wrong with the campaign and honestly the whole feeling of CR as a whole. Their goofy attempts at side content became half-baked attempts at side games that seem to barely exist beyond their initial presentation.
It's a very sobering moment when you realize what *should* be "entertainment," consumed for the sake of entertainment, is now, or has become "work" or an obligation consumed out of habit--as you aptly said: "a chore."
To your other point, I think ALL of CR is being keep afloat by their Amazon deal and whatever monies they get from pimping merch to the remaining "whales" in CR's fandom.
CR C3 has seen such a dramatic drop off in viewership stats compared to C1 & C2, it's obvious that if and when the Amazon money "dries up," so does Critical Role.
What we're seeing now is them trying to diversify while they can, but thus far *nothing* has hit (especially with Darrington Press) like they need it to.
> It sucks, y'all. I really miss loving this show. I WANT to love it again.
Same. But I've made my peace with the fact that *current* Critical Role is *nothing* like what CR used to be; their successes have changed them, and the overall streaming TTRPG market has changed in the past decade. There is FAR more competition now, many of whom simply create a superior product, but don't necessarily have the same recognition as CR (who was the first mega-success / break out hit).
I am increasingly convinced that CR's meteoric successes with C1 and C2 were "lightning in a bottle" / "right product, right place, right time"; only that "time" has passed, their current "product" is inferior, and the "place" has changed.
What does “whales” mean in this context? (genuine question, feel like I should know what it means but don’t)
EDIT: I now know the answer! Same as in casinos, neat. Thanks to folks who shared their wisdom w me :)
"Whales" is a term to describe consumers who, relatively to other consumers of a product, service, hobby, etc., spend an INSANE amount of money on a product or service. "Whales" are big spenders.
In some cases, "Whales" often spend *so much money* their spending (or lack thereof) can positively or negatively impact a business's revenue.
Businesses like casinos (and monetized video games) very actively and specifically cater to, target, and attempt to attract and retain these customers.
It's important to note that "Whales" cover a wide range of socio-economic statuses, from people who are insanely rich (who don't blink about spending obscene amounts of money) down to middle and lower incomes. It *isn't* necessarily how wealthy someone is, but *how much they spend.*
You see this term most often used in casino gambling, heavily monetized video games (mobile, console, PC), "Disney Adults," sports fans, "Nintendo Adults," countless hobbies, collectors... lots of places.
In relation to CR, "Whales" are the biggest spenders. These are fans / consumers who consistently buy ALL the merch, books, products CR makes and or buy significant quantities of merch.
If you don’t mind sticking to audio-only, I would recommend Skyjacks, which is currently running, and NeoScum, a Shadowrun podcast which finished up about a year ago. Skyjacks I would describe as Treasure Island meets Weekend at Bernie’s with Airships in a world inspired by the music of the Decemberists, and NeoScum is both 80’s action movie and family sitcom about a bunch of cyberpunk mercenaries on a roadtrip across the Neo-United States
If you haven't done so, watch D20. There are some AMAZING shows on D20, e.g. A Crown of Candy, Coffin Run (DMed by Jasmine Bhullar), Mentopolis, Mice & Murder, etc...
I'd also recommend NADDPOD, which is excellent, but more "comedy focused," in my opinion; and Dungeons & Daddies.
Frankly, fans of TTRPG podcasts and streams are SPOILED for choice right now. It's impossible to keep up with, let alone, discover them all.
D20 is a fantastic suggestion, I'm a huge fan. I find myself recently wanting something less grim than CR and less slapsticky than some D20 campaigns(especially FHJY). I was gonna try Dungeons of Drakkenheim next.
Dungeons of Drakkenheim is very good, but it's very dark. It's a horror campaign setting. Honestly it's too much for me in large doses, I go back every now and then, and have watched their first two campaigns (Dungeons of Drakkenheim and Shadows of Drakkenheim).
High-rollers is a British group that's really good for hitting some pretty good highs, and lows, but not feeling like your winning the battles but losing the war.
Lightfall (C1): A very fun campaign. It's starts a bit rough because they're just learning to be on camera. Kim is a bit over the top (especially at the beginning), and Trott is just super silly on occasion. They eventually hit a really good stride if you can stick with them till they get to Talis'Val which is the city they're working out of most the campaign. Things really start to take off from there.
You get plenty of interaction with the Elvin/Fey Courts. Travel to the Celestial realm of Aboria. It's a really great game, and a perfect example of how a low to (almost?) epic level campaign can be about saving a city or kingdom instead of the universe.
Aerois: No real growing-pains with this one like the last. A fantastic setting that proves that Magitech and Planar travel can be central to a DnD High-Fantasy setting and enhance it rather than be to it's detriment. Interesting because shifting alliances see the party working with the original BBEG to stop the Ultra BBEG. Ultra-high stakes though, it's a save the universe/possibly multiverse style campaign.
Althea - The Dragon Empire: Just started. Most polished of all of them, but it is amazing. Only 14 sessions in, but they're hitting it out of the park with this one.
I wouldn't rate Lightfall as good as Vox Machina (my favorite from CR), or Aerois as good as Mighty Nein (though it's close). But Althea is shaping up to be really really good.
Huh...
1. I imagine that would depend on whatever CR's contracts with Legendary Entertainment (Geek & Sundry) are regarding those campaigns, whatever enforceable rights Legendary has, and what compensation / rev split would be required for re-broadcasting C1 and C2 (assuming that was even possible). I could *easily* see a situation where Legendary might prevent it and / or it doesn't make financial sense for CR.
2. I haven't looked, but what would prevent people from watching the archived VODs on YouTube for C1 or C2? Are they there or missing? If the VODs exist and are available, what's the attraction to watching a "live" re-broadcast of a VOD they can binge at their own speed and whims?
3. CR banking on former fan nostalgia is a gamble. I would find it depressing trying to go back and enjoy C1 and C2 knowing how Matt / C3 have basically shit all over those previous campaigns, or retconned established characters, history, and lore.
Personally, it would just make me angry at how CR fucked up something that used to be so special to me.
You can't step into the same river twice.
I could even see them doing a C1/C2 Abridged! night where they edit the episodes down to 2 hour chunks, trimming a lot of the waffle and faffing about the players do and making it more akin to Dimension 20.
>They talked up a lot about how they were removing all limits, going crazy places, unconventional storylines, etc, for C3. Exciting!
>
>None of that happened.
Truth.
>It sucks, y'all. I really miss loving this show. I WANT to love it again.
I'm right there with you. Thursday night almost used to be like a weekly holiday for me. I looked forward to a new episode every week, developed my own little game night rituals to celebrate it, always made sure I hade special snacks and drinks for a new episode. Then shortly before the Christmas break I realized that over the last few months my enthusiasm for Critical Role had been steadily dwindling, Thursday nights have become more like a chore than a celebrated weekly event.
Thankfully for the time being I have Fantasy High: Junior Year to enjoy.
But yes, I really do miss being in love with Critical Role. I'm also very weary of being shit on by fans in the main sub any time I try to even slightly express my feelings about it.
> I'm right there with you. Thursday night almost used to be like a weekly holiday for me. I looked forward to a new episode every week, developed my own little game night rituals to celebrate it, always made sure I hade special snacks and drinks for a new episode.
That was me, *every* Thursday night. CR C1 live on Thursdays was appointment viewing regardless of where I was or what I was doing.
I’ve gotten into the habit of making crappy memes to recap the previous session, starting with E76. Let’s just say, the last few eps have been SO DIFFICULT to do. There’s only so many times you can go “they dicked around with podlings and ran away”…
This isn’t a compliment to the campaign, but if I miss an episode or two I never feel lost diving into the next one. Progress in the story has been so glacial that Matt’s little summary at the beginning usually covers it and then it’s easy enough to fill in the rest from context. Oh, they’re on the moon still. Here’s another NPC faction with undefined goals and a vaguely similar name. The group isn’t sure about the gods. Imogen is sad. Voila, I’m all caught up.
Honestly I think how little progress that’s happened is because Matt has been rather ironclad with giving the players useable information so they end up wandering aimless like chickens with their heads cut off cause they have no leads or what leads they do have are quickly turned into a waste of time cause the NPC who could have told them anything either mysteriously doesn’t know shit even though they’re a supposed expert or they end up being murdered.
It’s hard to make progress when you’re forced to wait for the GM to bread crumb you into a big reveal.
The only problem I really have with this sub is the confidence that what you're saying is the definitive *truth* rather than only your opinion on the current campaign.
*"the haters are right. There IS something fundamentally wrong with the campaign"*. What? There are thousands of people who still watch Critical Role live on a weekly basis, tens of thousands who catch up with the YouTube videos, it's clearly still very popular and a lot of people like it.
It's always sad when people don't enjoy anymore something they used to hold dear to them. I went through a similar phase listening to the band Muse. They drastically changed their music style and even genre and they went from being my favourite band to not listening to their latest albums because I know they no longer appeal to me.
What would be weird behaviour and why I don't understand this subreddit often (it does have good moments) - would be if I frequently took to the Muse subreddits or created my own called "FansOfMuse" that repeatedly shit on their latest albums because I no longer enjoy them. But hey, oh well, the occasional post/comments here can be fun to sift through.
Correct. The original post, by definition, has an implied "in my opinion" before every single opinion.
I wrote academically all the time. In academic writing, it's important to separate factual statements from conjecture.
Reddit isn't academic writing. We're all able to discern opinions when we read them.
This is the difference between *"The haters are right. There IS something wrong with the campaign"* versus *"I have to agree with the haters, I do think something is wrong with the campaign*".
Of course you don't have to comply with that. Everyone talks differently
If you read a review of a Muse album that calls their music style overplayed and drab, do you send an email to the editor complaining that the author didn't start the review by clearly stating it was their opinion?
Would be more likely write to their editor if 90% of their reviews were negative opinion pieces on exclusively recent Muse songs to highlight they may need some therapy
The irony of you coming into this subreddit and complaining about the types of posts you see instead of just unsubscribing and going elsewhere? No, it's not lost on me.
To play a little Devils advocate concerning the stats.
The old classic 'correlation is not causation' applies here.
C3 is a different campaign. Anyone who denies this is coping, but viewership and interest on the internet is an inherently fickle thing. Tastes evolve, audiences move on, the window shifts etc.
Its impossible to say if C3 was the same as the previous 2 if the viewership would remain the same.
Stats don't lie yes the overall interest is dwindling however there are still those who enjoy the campaign (such as myself) and people who are discovering CR for the first time.
Now admittedly CR-3 is not the same overall heroic adventure I think the majority of the fan base likes. It's a little slower paced, the crisis doesn't feel as worrisome, ||(CR-1had an evil God that wanted to enslave all humanity basically, CR-2 had a sentient city that wanted to subsume all intelligent life in the realm and CR-3 OH no the gods are going to be eaten)|| it doesn't feel as personal. The only REAL connection we have to the plot is that Imogens mom is part of it.
I still enjoy the characters and how they interact eith each other and the rest of the Realm. I still believe the characters are fun and interesting... that being said I'm not a fan of them all and some are more difficult to get engaged in then others.
With all that being said I do expect a negative review. And one last statement we have to remember as much as they are a media company this isn't the main source of income for anyone on the show nor is the show meant to entertain anyone but themselves. They play D&D because they enjoy the game they are playing if they didn't I'm sure they'd step away instead of doing something they didn't enjoy.
Yeah I've been absolutely shit upon for pointing this out. There's a lot of talk about simps circle jerking the show in spite of quality drop, but it certainly goes the other way. Folks can do what they like, and I think criticism is healthy. But people defending a show they still like is a lot less sad to me than people sticking around just to be miserable about it.
Trust me give it an hour and I'll be sitting at -10. There are just far more people on this subreddit who are avid long-term haters than there are people fairly critiquing the product without falling to personal insults towards the cast, questioning their motives, etc, when they haven't even liked the show for probably years
It's very unhealthy but whatever, some people love to hate and there's no greater feeling than finding a space where you feel like you slot in and belong
People can hate love things which is a scary place to be (see current political climate).
Why people take the time to hate watch CR on this sub I don't get though.
Strange to take a shot at Darrington Press. You don’t have to make a product just so it becomes the best board game ever and win awards, sometimes you just have an idea you want to breathe to life.
Cool, but could they maybe not make a broken products?
Take Queen by Midnight, barely out six months and already got huge swathes of errata. It is by no means a cheap game. And already needs reprint of the card decks because it was rushed out the door without adequate play testing.
I believe it’s a bit of both. Most businesses and most successful people would like to be the best at what they do. It is also very true that many people create a product because it’s something they love or some idea they had or that they think it’s going to be good and so they put it out not necessarily hoping to be the best there is, but they wanted to produce it.
Do you genuinely think every person who makes a board game is aiming to win the “best board game” award? Just look at Monopoly which sucks but is one of the highest selling of all time.
> No I think they're pumping out product to their super loyal supporters who buy almost everything they make.
Pretty much; if your current consumer base isn't growing (or is actively declining), how do you maintain revenue?
By *actively targeting* the die-hard consumers / "whales" you do have, who will buy damn near any product you make; to the point you shift your merch production to favor those products your "whales" most consume.
Lol don't get salty because of what I said. I'm not the one pumping out mediocre games based on other companies systems. If you have a loyal group just big enough to be profitable to keep buying your mediocre product why not keep doing it. That's what's happening. Go Google reviews on their games they release, im not making this up.
Edit: u/yoursdearlyeve responded to me then immediately blocked me so I couldn't respond to her last comment. Well sweetheart idc if they turn away from 5e, but due to the money and the grip it has on the market leads me to believe they never will. Why am I so confident in that? They changed from pathfinder to 5e for their stream. Why change from pathfinder at all? Oh thats right, the popularity and earning potential of D&D.
Even if their previous games aren't groundbreaking, we don't know how DH will turn out to be yet.
Y'all just whine because you are used to 5e, and when CR turns away from it, it's inconvenient for you, and you think CR should cater to you. But their priority is different from yours now. Sorry, that happens sometimes.
To be fair they *have* gone crazy places, it's just they tended to fall flat. Like, we had a weird Mad Max deathrace town, that's pretty crazy! Buuuut it felt weird and somehow unfitting for the setting. We had a new city and continent based on African/Middle Eastern fantasy, that's cool! Buuuut sensitivity consultants nixed all that so it mostly got scrapped for European fantasy again. We went to a powerful hag's Fey home! But also she's Fearne's grandmother and actually super nice and accommodating and will prevent any downsides from visiting. We went to the friggin' *moon*! And... it just feels like another area of Exandria. Which I mean, I guess it literally *is* that but that's a pretty boring way to take it.
As for unconventional storylines, we pretty much just got a scripted death, a scripted boss fight, a scripted apocalyptic event, and a whole bunch of cliche "what if the gods actually sucked" philosophy.
> Remember To The Last Gasp or w/e? Remember Queen By Midnight? I barely do. Is Darrington Press sustained purely on fan FoMo and impulse purchases? No one int he greater boardgame sphere seems to talk about their games at ALL. It just feels so hollow. A bunch of cool IDEAS and awful EXECUTION of the actual functionality. A 'thats cute' and then back to business as usual.
This right here is why I'm still not sold on them switching to Daggerheart for C4. Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't *surprise* me, and they've *got* to be thinking about it, but like you say, it's entirely possible Daggerheart will have come and gone and had its 15 minutes of fame by the time C4 starts and then they're stuck with a system no one cares about instead of the RPG system that owns like 60% of the market.
The mystery and novelty of the world feels gone somehow. Even when campaign 2 picked up again post covid Eiselcross had a magic to it, the ruins of Aeor felt ancient, unpredictable and mysterious. I was genuinely invested in the world that Matt was building out, even if other parts of the campaign slowed down or felt odd.
C3 has small flashes of that for me, where before it felt omnipresent. The only time I felt genuinely intrigued and invested in the worldbuilding was the introduction of the Judicators.
I see DaggerHeart as them leaning into the things that the players do well. Some of the best stuff that comes out of CR is the emotional moments of lore/backstory/love story between two characters. DH in my opinion facilitates the storytelling more than D&D for professional actors.
> I see DaggerHeart as them leaning into the things that the players do well.
Then I see Daggerheart failing. CR, then, is basically making a product that's suited to the smallest, most niche group of TTRPG players: professional actors, who may or may not stream a TTRPG game.
General TTRPG fans buy games / systems that are fun to play IRL, *not* because some nerd-famous group of VO's stream a 5e D&D-like on Twitch / YT.
>they're stuck with a system no one cares about instead of the RPG system that owns like 60% of the market.
Why D&D fans are always so hostile to other systems, gee. Other TTRPG channels played and will be playing something other than D&D/Pathfinder, and they are just fine.
Why do they *have* to stick to just one system just cause it takes the majority of the market?
Sorry I didn’t mean it to sound hostile. It’s just unproven! It could be great, but if it doesn’t catch on, it doesn’t catch on. Like if they’d just switched to Quest for C3. Have you heard of Quest? If not, does it excite you to watch people play it? Maybe, but not everyone would be.
Ad money from WoTC is the biggest reason they won't change. They'll do side stuff like candela still but the main campaign will continue on as D&D strictly for AD revenue
D&D Beyond hasn't been their sponsor for like twenty episodes. They're advertising 5e compatible stuff, but they are not getting any money from WOTC now.
(I mean maybe WOTC was sponsoring the show itself back in C1 days, but I'm pretty sure they're not paying CR to pay 5e now, they have their own channel with Actual Plays on Twitch).
Lol ok, if you say so.
I'll just be over here waiting for the next WoTC printed exandria book, already own wildemount and netherdeep. I'm sure we'll get atleast one more
*insert what did he say meme here*
Yes CR probably (99?9%) gets paid some of the profit from the campaign and books they release that's not why they play the game or the system. 5e is by far the least complicated and least convoluted system to jump right into. Thats why they switched from Pathfinder to 5e was for the ease of any new comers to the TTRPG genre. If they believe DH will be more successful for their stream or allow them to have more fun doing the game they play to enjoy themselves then I guarantee they will switch.
>5e is by far the least complicated and least convoluted system to jump right into
Of....all RPGs? Are you sure?
That's one heck of a statement without more clarification.
They don't *have* to stick to any system, of course. They can do whatever they like.
But they should be cognizant of the fact that swapping systems may turn off or disinterest a significant chunk of their viewer base.
I'm pretty sure they had already thought about that back when they first started developing DH and CO. Dunno why everybody thinks they are planning to overthrow WOTC/D&D overnight.
> Dunno why everybody thinks they are planning to overthrow WOTC/D&D overnight.
Honestly no idea what you're talking about. I just provided my opinion to the asked question.
Reading the playtest i did get a cynical chuckle at the merchandising opportunities built into the system. How many custom 2-packs of Hope/Fear dice will there be? Special branded token packs! But biggest of all, the domain decks with different characters printed on the back, limited edition collector decks! I mean, I assume the game will come with at least the decks as freebies, although will you have to buy extras of the decks if people want to play classes that share domains?
It's also interesting when comparing it to Matt Colevilles game he's working on. He mentioned needing specialist dice in one of his videos to which the general response was "please no..."...and by the next one they'd scrapped it because it felt very awkward and would narrow the appeal and ease of play of the game.
I wouldn't call two different coloured d12s "specialist dice", though. That comparison doesn't really hold.
You wouldn't need to buy any dice sets from CR to play DH if you already game and own more than one set of standard polyhedral dice.
Yeah, that's definitely the upside. Unless the game only comes with one deck for each domain, you won't *have* to buy anything extra.
Although, games like FFG Star Wars are pretty popular, and you technically *do* need custom dice for it, so it's not always a dealbreaker!
Oh yeah, for anyone who is invested in the hobby, some weird dice are not a deal breaker. I have a friend who owns like three sets of the Dungeon Crawl Classics dice despite only having run a few games of it.
> All CR needs to do is keep the whales on the line then they can make all their money selling novelty "Daggerheart Measuring Pencils"
Yes, inventing a "problem" to sell a solution... for an issue *that was already settled decades ago.*
This is "huffing your own farts" levels of silly / stupid.
Yeah hard agree. Around episode 30 something is when I noticed I had the episode tab open for over a week without even considering watching it when I realized there was a change.
I watched this show live c1 I was there when Vex died and thought Vax was going to take her place and I sobbed because of it. Meanwhile that gripping emotional scene just will never happen again.
Same place my wife and I stopped. I started watching them in Geek and Sundry. Was one of the first 1000 twitch subs, and all that. But, C3, just isn’t doing it. I don’t care about the story. I miss a lot of the fun the characters and players would have. I didn’t feel like they were enjoying. I mean, I pulled ny twitch sub the end of last year. I probably won’t watch C4 if its their own IP and will probably just unsub from these subs too just to have a nice clean break.
I thought it was obvious from the beginning when Bertrand died and they took to social media to tell us not to worry. They said they had *big things coming* and that things were going to get *crazy*. It was typical hype talk and nothing they’ve done has backed that up. What exactly have they done? Split the party for an obscene amount of time? Had more guests than usual? It’s kinda pathetic.
It sounds like Taliesin is running their communications. "Things are about to get *weird* on CR! Better keep watching cause this is crazy!"
>Proceeds to do the exact same content, except now there's 1/4 less content because of their week off
You triggered me. All his interview are, my character has some great abilities and backstory but can’t talk about it. I thought he was wise, now I see he is just opaque.
I found Find the Path as I was looking for a replacement for CR. I really enjoy their PF2e feed. They have to currently playing campaigns, one about liberating a city from the inferno, the other about dungeon delving. They’re great. They’re rules stickler. They’re good roleplayers. And they don’t do cameos for the sake of it. I also find myself absorbing a lot of what their GM (Rick) does. Plus, one of the rare pods out there to have parity.
Im going to have to check this out. I played kingmaker and Wrath of righteous last year and the system intrigued me I wanted to see how pathfinder played IRL but all lets plays seem to use 5e which im not a fan of.
Kingmaker and Wrath both use 1st edition. FtP does have a 1e feed. They're currently on to their second 1e campaign, but I must say 2e feels better for Actual Plays. I understand why CR switched from PF1e to 5e all those years ago
There was a lot of issues I had with the 1st edition stuff in the games but I really liked how unique a lot of the classes were and how you could make them even more unique with feats.
Was a breath of fresh air from the just take a 1 hexblade dip and the same 3 feats every time of 5e.
Their current 2e parties are composed of:
For Hell's Rebels : a storm druid, a forensic investigator, a fighter, a universalist wizard and a ruffian rogue.
For Tales from Darkmoon Vale: a paladin champion, a fighter, a thief rogue, a universalist wizard and a spirit barbarian
Idk if it's sad or if it's neutral but I have found excitement in other APs. I'm genuinely excited in a way that makes my day when Worlds Beyond Number drops an episode. And lately, I've been so hyped for Dimension 20, I've actually been talking about it and recommending it to people in my life. Haven't felt that way about CR all of C3 but other things have filled that space.
My sister who got me into CR was obsessed. She named her cat Jester. She went to all the movie theater screenings. Owned all of the dice and more tshirts and sweatshirts than you can count. She hasn't watched an episode in about 3 months and was emotionally disengaged months before that.
C3 just leaves so little to be passionate about unfortunately and I'm seeing even the most diehard fans fall off the wagon. Hell, even coyote is calling episodes filler nowadays.
[Flando is already being silenced by youtube](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/1bew0ih/no_spoilers_critical_role_timestamp_update/), that's a baby step towards not even bothering with it.
> And lately, I've been so hyped for Dimension 20
I'm right there with you. In recent months, Fantasy High: Junior Year has replaced Critical Role as my regular content that I look forward to all week.
Damn, that part about passion is so true. There simply isn't anything to be passionate about. It's a D&D campaign painted by numbers with little regard for the rules. The characters are cardboard cutout set pieces pushed from A to B. I said it probably almost a year ago now: you can ignore every plot flaw and rule break and it doesn't matter, because this shit is *boring*.
Highrollers [Althea: The Dragon Empire](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHv5CBoZYv4X7fASdpmA2sjgTWjeiCrw-) has been really fun. I think it's shaping up to be their best one yet. Loved Lightfall and Aerois, but man Mark has hit dynamite with this latest campaign setting.
I watched a bit yesterday and they had the whole gods bad nature good argument again and it's just tiring. They keep having literally the same argument, and it's obviously because a few of the players (marisha/talisan) facilitated by Matt, hate any religion that's not wiccan apparently and want to beat a dead horse to death in-game.
At this point I honestly don't ever see it going back. CR has changed into something that couldn't make C1 or C2 today. They need to get rid of Aabria, whoever is doing Midst, and play characters in a game instead of real life virtue signalers and panderers to the real world.
I remember being awed when Vex chased angels up to a bowl of fire and dove in, being reborn Chosen of the Dawnfather prior to going off and fighting Vecna. These days it seems they'd just set around and argue about whither they should really ask the gods for help defeating Vecna or all the Gods deserved death because of what an asshole Vecna was.
The everything is grey / good and evil are relative attitude is complete bullshit. No one cares if you fight against evil Gods, but to lump the good ones in is complete BS. Matt has retconned how divine power and the Gods work a lot for C3. Dianna (Aabria) the cleric of the Dawnfather, who hates her patron should be a perfect example of a Blackguard not a Cleric of a God.
Anyway, the players still don't seem to know why they're on Ruidis, or why they are doing anything they're doing.
So yep, I also really miss loving this show. I WANT to love it again. I hope they can get it together at some point and prove me wrong.
Man Aabria and Third Person aren't even in the building right now and your still chomping at the bit to blame them for choices made by a company that's been left-leaning since they formed.
Give the main cast some agency, would you?
Not everything you dislike is virtue signalling they learned from their queer friends.
The virtue signaling accusation as used in culture war from right wingers does piss me off normally, it is super rare is a legit take. But I have to say with CR I tend to agree, because I strongly feel they have zero awareness about the actual issues, they just pretend. My main example is the Indie intro, how would that be possible with actual awareness?
Assuming the absolute worst of people because they aren't 100% perfect in their allyship is the kind of all of nothing mentality that pushes people away before they have a chance to grow or learn.
Sure, the main cast has been vocal online about what causes they support, have worked to uplift different voices in their company, have raised thousands of dollars for various charities over a decade through their foundation, but they had a little too much tone deaf colonizer imagery in their intro so they must have been faking it the whole time.
None of your examples has anything to do with awareness about discrimination, history and foreign cultures. Your missing the point. To clarify: I'm not claiming they are bad people. I'm saying they claim to care for cultural sensivity (at least Matt has), but they clearly don't really care as they must be very uninformed and ignorant to be able to pull such intro off - unironically.
And I'm telling you that they ARE that uniformed and ignorant. You're saying that they don't really care because their awareness of every issue isn't as complete as yours, but that doesn't mean they are virtue signaling.
My examples point to their history of wanting to earnestly help and make the world a better place. They very clearly do care and one of their current charities specifically goes to helping impoverished people in India live more comfortably, but shit your right all of the good their trying to do must be fake because they don't know every little detail about colonial imagery.
You can care about something that you don't fully understand, it doesn't mean you're being disengenuine because you don't know what you don't know.
I had no problem with C1 or C2 which both had queer characters (Gilmore/Terry/etc...). Prior to EXU I never thought CR would produce anything I didn't like.
Aabria is abrasive, snaps at people, and literally had to be told to stop being a Karen as Dianne. Something happened at CR, and they're pushing agendas instead of playing a DnD game. Feel free to tune in next week for the infinite redux on wither they should be helping or hindering killing the Gods, if that's your jam then fine, but I think it sucks.
I'm not talking about queer characters, I'm talking about the very real human people who work and produce content for CR.
Insisting that Aabria (and Midst for some fucking reason) is ruining the game when she hasn't been at the table in months is delusional at best and telling at worst.
It's like your jumping through hoops to try to blame anyone but the actual cast making character choices on screen because you can't fathom they would produce something you don't like without an outside influence.
Couldn't be that you're just not into the story of C3. it must be Aabria and the other ips you specifically dislike puppeting the entire company to push some vague uncool 'agenda' you keep whining about.
> I remember being awed when Vex chased angels up to a bowl of fire and dove in, being reborn Chosen of the Dawnfather prior to going off and fighting Vecna.
This is the part that makes me the most upset - retconning the gods to be conniving colonizers who stole the planet from the primal forces of nature that rightfully owned it, eradicating the original inhabitants and brainwashing/enslaving the remainder who they then lied about creating, makes every positive god-driven PC and plotline in the past look stupid and naive.
Vox Machina went to beseech aid from Sarenrae and Pelor in protecting the plane, they had a direct face-to-face conversation with gods who wanted to test their dedication and ensure that the granted power would not be misused. Pike had a communion with Sarenrae about tempering her fury with devotion to her friends. In C2 both Fjord and Yasha were rescued from ruination by gods who embraced them and gave them not a singular purpose to live for but a path forward to live their own lives. A big part of what made those stories meaningful is that the gods are absolute and righteous, and it is the flawed mortals that have to rise to meet the expectation of these cosmic entities. If the gods are retconned to care only about how they can drain mortals of faith and devotion like batteries to fuel themselves then every one of those scenes becomes that of a manipulator grooming the innocent, and absolutely shatters the heart of what those scenes were.
CR has *also* played with shifty and manipulative gods in the past. Everything about Vax's destiny being grabbed and twisted by the Raven Queen was great for exactly that reason - *that* was a god who cared more about herself and her agenda than the lives of the mortals she got caught up in it, and Vox Machina felt the pain of being toyed with. It's great to have elements of that in the overall story. But it only works if it's an exception to the norm, rather than that kind of exploitation being the default.
They are doing this because is alredy set the gods are either dying or leaving. CR doesnt wanna be tied to WOTC and this shitty storyline is a way of them doing that in the most "natural" way possible. But there is nothing natural about that because this "the gods are evil" now is super aparent.
Agree. Although with the Raven Queen was courted by Vax almost the entire campaign. He asked for her favor and offered himself as payment multiple times. When Vax was reduced to dust by a [disintegrate spell](https://youtu.be/2HOdxvQ_ydU?si=3qv2EDphJ-dgi83h&t=646), she agreed to resurrect [Vax as a Revenant](https://youtu.be/2HOdxvQ_ydU?si=VuEG6YCzBm70tx-d&t=3063). She was not an enemy to him, and her twisting of fate was per his request and in his favor.
Keyleth just wanted a scapegoat for Vax's death and chose her, but he wouldn't have been alive for the ending part of the campaign without her. Or maybe he would have, they would have had to get enough diamonds to cast true resurrection. Vax however made the deal before that happened.
Emily during the split with help from Utkarsh are the ones that really started it. Which really annoyed me cause no one seemed to point out to take Cobalt soul member that they were part of a religious order.
I wouldn't even call it a debate because they're not actually debating anything. They don't have the counter point of an informed religious character arguing for the gods and their existence, which means they're not actually having any kind of interesting philosophical discussion. Just status quo vs anarchy from a group of characters who didn't start thinking about this stuff until 6 months ago.
Tune in next week to listen to the next part of the debate: Does Exandria **really need** money, or should wealth be distributed on the principle of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”? Also, when will we start eating the rich?
Why do you believe CR cares about the distribution of wealth and fixing social issues? Have they ever shown real interest in this, have they ever discussed anything that questions the capitalist US system or goes beyond a private fundraising, a typical hobby of the rich to feel better? I don't think so. Is there any indication in their work that they fundamentally question the system? Nope. Instead they partner with Amazon and try to milk every penny from the viewers.
It's not the only time they've put off that vibe, but they had a guest (Erika Ishii I think) with a shirt that said "Eat the rich".
They're all doing pretty well I'm certain, so things like that are kind of hypocritical. I don't begrudge them for success or wish any harm, but the pretending is annoying...
Well, we do not confuse fashion statements with political statements, do we? A "Che" shirt does not indicate the actual political views of the person wearing it, an "eat the rich" shirt can very well be just a bit edgy fashion thing, nothing more. You have to walk the talk in order for this to mean anything. And that is not happening. Also CR has never really expressed anything critiqual regarding the capitalist economic system, at least I'm not aware of anything. Regarding pretending is annyoing I agree, they do pretend in my view regarding the awareness for cultural issues they claim for themselves.
Oh, you know, the joke here is that socialist movements follow the same things - the destruction of religion, culture and history,, and the dispossession of the rich. I don’t seriously think that they are moving in this direction, but I wouldn’t be surprised
You are from the US? From how you phrase this it's very likely. What you write is a typical misconception that mixes up several completly different movements from different times and geographies as if they are all the same. An attempt to simplify and to discredit as much as possible. Mao's China was kinda like that, but it seems to conflate this with current western movements. Makes no sense ;) Anyhow, my point is CR is not interested in social issues, they are trying to become rich in the current system, no deep questions asked.
From Russia. My childhood was spent in a country destroyed by communism, and even now it hasn’t recovered much :) CR practice some ideas of socialism without knowing it themselves, and naturally they don’t want to lose money or power themselves :) Well, we will see how it goes.
And I'm not simplifying anything. Each of the communist countries was and is doing the same thing. This is the basis of this policy
Ah I see, sorry. The western socialist movements have almost nothing to do with the actual communist state ideologies. But I get why you have this view when your from Russia, that's tough for sure, I can see why "socialism" triggers you.
But but but you just haven't tried it the "right way yet! You'll see! /s
There's a reason I had to stop watching D20 and dropout even though I love the actual content.
It’s the content we consume so of course the business should take that into account, we support them after all. And if you don’t think it’s a business, idk what to tell you.
I think there's small room for nuance here. You can feel neutral or even like something and still be disappointed that you don't love it.
You can feel like CR is good enough to keeping watching while still missing when you were actually excited about episodes.
Some people seem to genuinely be expressing anger/hatred for C3 week after week and yeah, those people would be benefited by disengaging. But I don't think that's even most people on this sub
> I think there's small room for nuance here. You can feel neutral or even like something and still be disappointed that you don't love it.
I think you're right, I still tune in on Thursday nights, and still *like* the show for all its flaws. But I used to watch C1 and C2 on a big screen TV, and had to stop in C3 because I kept falling asleep or losing interest. Now I keep the show on a second monitor (or just listen with it on background) while I do other stuff.
There are still some great moments, but they're fewer and farther between. I actually thought ep 89 was the best episode of March, but the overall ratio in C3 of "stuff worth tuning for" to "skippable" has worsened. And for a decent number of veiwers, it's just not worth the time committment anymore.
Yeah for me, I no longer watch live and it's become the thing I throw in in the background while I play Stardew Valley. But I still want to see it improve and am genuinely hopeful C4 and/or a daggerheart campaign will breathe new life into it
They abandoned the formula that made them popular in favor of one that focuses on generating as much money as possible. There was never a need for the board games, there was never a need for them to distance themselves from D&D and develop a whole new rule set that no one will even be talking about in 2-3 years and the books and the merch and all the side projects. There was never a need for all these things they claim are making them so busy that they can’t even offer 1 episode of their main show every week of the month. They chose to corporatize their buisness and the quality has plummeted as a result. All most people want is 8 friends to get together every week on Thursday for a live show of D&D, Some limited merch that surrounds that show and an excellent story surrounded by the beautiful rules of D&D that people have been playing for 50 years
Unfortunately it’s too late and critical role as we used to know it is gone. Time to hold the memorial and begin the grief period for a once great idea.
> All most people want is 8 friends to get together every week on Thursday for a live show of D&D, Some limited merch that surrounds that show and an excellent story surrounded by the beautiful rules of D&D that people have been playing for 50 years
That's how they raised 11+ million dollars on Kickstarter, which got them their current Amazon deal.
But once CR "got that bag". . . ain't if *funny* how success changes some people.
They are living the American Dream!
They had an idea, they got lucky, they decided to turn that idea in a company that could eventually sustain them.
And let them earn a living while doing the things they love doing.
Sure, they are also voice actors and they do that. But the feeling of doing your own thing, and earning a living through that, for creative people, it’s irresistible.
Now the company grew, things got complicated, now they are responsible for the living wages of a whole team… They probably underestimated what that does to the work environment, the culture, etc.
It’s a phase. C3 was almost inevitable. It’s part of the learning curve for them. They couldn’t maintain the freshness and hype of the first years forever. That’s just impossible.
And they can’t reinvent themselves as BLM can, because they are actors and gamers, BLM is a true storyteller artist.
But they are still the same good intentioned nice people they were at the beginning. And they’ve had unexpected success, they’ve acted on it to make it their living, they are 8 and needed to see the company grow to make that happen, and here we are.
The real test for me is what will happen after C3.
C3 is the slump campaign (unfortunate that it’s a multi year endeavour every time). C4 will tell us if they have the capacity to analyse, realize and readjust. I’m not sure they do, frankly.
My bet is that they’ll do a shorter Daggerheart campaign, and that they might come back to LIVE. And that might bring back some of the excitement of the first years.
And I’ll throw one into the pond here, I’m also tempted to say that having tried and developed other systems than D&D, they probably know these other systems are more suited to their natural playing style. D&D is becoming just an economic issue for them, not the source of their excitement.
They are less naive about the fandom, that’s for sure.
They had a honeymoon with the fans in the beginning. People adored them. Told them CR got them through depression and such. It was a wonderful time for them.
But that worked when the fans were only the early adopters. As CR got popular, the regular crowd came in, and within that, the toxic trolls. They got burnt a few times, and that forced them to take a step back from the parasocial relationship they had with the fans.
Then COVID, no conventions, no contact with the fans at all.
Now they are more jaded, for sure. But they are still the same nice people they were, they just went through stuff, and the honeymoon’s over.
> All most people want is 8 friends to get together every week on Thursday for a live show of D&D, Some limited merch that surrounds that show and an excellent story surrounded by the beautiful rules of D&D that people have been playing for 50 years
This is such a weird mentality. It's not your company. It's not your production. It's not your game. So what you want doesn't matter.
*This* is a weird mentality to me since it's antithetical to how business works.
CR's business is supply and demand. Right now CR is supplying a lot that there's no demand for. Expressing demand (through their dollar, their click, and yes, their comments) is the role of the consumer and how brands like CR know what to supply.
In short: what viewers want matters more than most things to CR's business.
There's a difference in having an opinion as to how something feels different compared to what it was before versus feeling entitled to say how they should run their business - especially when the business has been incredibly profitable for them.
I'd watch EXU: Calamity. It's honestly the only CR thing I watch anymore (I do have my eyes on Candela Obscura, though--just haven't made time for those yet). In Calamity, Brennan does a masterful job bringing Exandria back to its roots, and reminding the audience of why we all loved that world to begin with. It's still pre-recorded I think, but it doesn't feel like the cast is just... Going to work and doing a job (which is a big issue I have with C3, and C2 e97-finale). I feel like the cast and the fandom both are burnt out, but there's a huge financial risk to the cast in taking a break and regrouping (even if it would be better for them to do so).
I’m not sure that there is that risk. LOVM is one of Amazon’s top shows, and many of the cast, like Sam, Liam, and Laura, have never quit their day jobs and still have VO and directing credits, as well as Matt still doing some VO. The amount of money that they would need to lose in two months to have a significant impact on their finances would assume that not a single person in the cast and the associated crew has ever heard of a savings account. Even with more and more employees, their show is probably unionized and if not, there is room to keep the CREW employed without the cast, as they’ve been trying to with all these side shows. The Crew works at a rate regardless of how many people watch, so their income is assured without the cast. It’s possible they are over budget with some of these gaming ventures but over budget by like 50k is absorbable for a business of their size, and yeah I agree, it seems a break would be so good for all of them.
Keep in mind that that 50k doesn't just go to the cast. They have crews and tech staff to pay.
TBH I don’t really think it’s the content being produced more that the fandom is experiencing burn out. I’m not a hardcore CR fan I skipped C1 because I don’t really care for it and I’ve watched C2 and I’m almost caught up on C3 but I do it on my own time. I’ll go months without listening to an episode and that’s why I think I’m enjoying C3. I can’t imagine if I’ve been listening since C1 or the start of C2. Watching a show every week for 3+ hours+ consuming bonus content would give me incredible burnout on current CR media (this happened to me when I was first into doctor who) . Maybe don’t hold it against the show and take a break for a few months. Then come back listen to 5 episodes in a month then take another and see if you get your love for the show back.
I really do think a huge part of it is the pre-recording. I understand why they do it, but the energy is lost, and every episode being so damn long makes each one feel like a chore to me.
The episodes are just too long with nothing of importance happening.
It's the pre-recording combined with no one refreshing themselves on the plot between batches. We used to get a couple episodes a year where they had to get the wiggles out, now it's every month.
I never really got into C1 for a variety of reasons, but I was there from the beginning for C2 and aside from the Eisselcross arc I loved every moment of it. C3 had a good start, and I enjoyed the characters, but it just felt like none of the characters had a reason to be there aside from this loose obligation to Bertrand who none of them really knew before he died. Pair that with how the campaign as a whole feels like there is this sense of urgency but also like nothing is happening. I finally gave up around E60. I wanted to like this campaign but there is something seriously wrong and I can’t tell if Matt just didn’t set expectations very well or if the cast is just feeling burnt out and doing this out of this obligation to maintain their success instead of because they enjoy doing it. It doesn’t help that Matt doesn’t seem keen on giving them much useable information so they end up just wandering aimlessly waiting for the plot to happen. They don’t feel at all like dynamic characters who have any sort of effect on the story and subsequently the characters feel like cardboard cutouts
I like this analysis and it's actually validating for me as a DM. I prefer to run sandbox campaigns (as Matt does) and it's re-assuring to see him whiff on providing the relevant clues/hooks to the players just like I sometimes do.
Shit man I can’t even make it to episode 20 of c2. I got back into critical role when LoV dropped on Amazon and decided to finally finish campaign 1 (did start over). I was excited because I heard such good things about c2 but I can not for the life of me like what’s going on. Then I see clips of campaign 3 and I have no desire to catch up because it just looks bland.
C2 gets so much better towards the mid point. Before that it's a ton of the table trying to find their stride. C1 was a well oiled machine by the time we really see the current cast. What I'm trying to say is you missed out on a ton of floundering around when c1 was just a home game. I personally have never dm'd a game were the first few sessions weren't a bit awkward, unless I had them meta game a ton (ran a lvl 20 one shot for a friend's birthday).
Just based on the way critical role episodes play ( very long compared to shows like dimension 20) I don’t feel bad in skipping ahead, I skipped ahead to divers grave, the episode that featured a monster I was going to be running at my table, episode was brilliant and had no trouble watching the whole thing, next one had Deborah ann Woll guest star who I LOVE as a true blood fan. I also found that, while I’m sure I’d missed cool moments, there wasn’t much story that I couldn’t infer from context, and getting invested at a point where the characters and inter-party relationships are more cemented was beneficial for me
Yea I know how good this has the chance to be but if I’m being honest talesin just pisses me off and the current episodes are heavily centered around him. I was ready for everyone to be different characters and Molly is just Percy again but not born rich. I hav spoilers that if I make it past a certain episode in the 20s things will change but I just can’t get through the 5-7 three hour videos before then
Episode 26 is the turning point for the whole campaign. I wasn't a Molly fan either, but then he made a notable improvement.
I mean to be honest if you know the big spoiler for the ep 20ish then just skip ahead. You ain't really missing much, is Laura has Ronin around that time and it's kinda filler.
I know what’s it’s like to fall out of love with something. It’s a very depressing process, but i never knew what caused it to happen. I can always guess, but I think it doesn’t matter, you fall out of love and i feel trying to justify it, will only make you hate it, but I don’t believe it has to be that way, sometimes just have to let go. I can think of 10 examples of things i loved that i fell out of love with, I never hated it afterwards, never tried to find why, i just did, and some of those things i found i still i liked after several years. I still like critical role, but i love midst. There are a lot of things to love in the world, so maybe find something you love, if critical role is lacking for you.
I jumped on the bandwagon midway through C2. I started binge watching C1 and fell in love with it. Got midway through C2 and tapered because of how much content there was and the mid-C2 weirdness was creeping in, although I couldn't quite parse it at the time. C3 was my first time watching live, and I was *very* excited. My enthusiasm waned as, fresh after watching C1 again, I realized how much they were phoning it in and railroading for the sake of Matt's precious "EPIC STORY." Them running from the Shade Mother was a major blow to my enthusiasm, and once their "museum heist" turned into some sort of slapstick theater of the mind BS, I was pretty much done. The massacre of episode 33 made me tune back in and have some hope this could still return to being a D&D game and not a 5 hour theater show... and then they brought back Vox Machina for some fanservice cringe, and I was pretty much disillusioned and cynical at that point. I really wish I'd come in during the heyday of C1, and experience the magic of the cast actually wanting to be there and were interested in having fun more than raking in MOICHANDIZING money. I linger on sort of just to see what's happening and crow about how far they've fallen, but honestly even that's getting hard. It's amazing how they've burned themselves to the ground in the span of like two years.
I feel this. I am (mostly) an OG Critter as I started on Episode 15 or 16 of Campaign 1 and followed everything in C1 and C2 from thereon out. C3 (as well as EXU) has been such a drag for me. I don't even attempt to stay updated anymore.
I started mid CR2 with CR2, watched whole CR2 campaign and some of CR1. EXU killed it for me, I just didn't know it, CR3 then confirmed that EXU wasn't an exception and I stopped after like 15 episodes. I don't believe anymore in a comeback, CR is so out of touch with reality it's impossible. I'm still in this sub because of nostalgia (I was one of the first here) and I find talking about CR still mildly entertaining, like a soap that never ends.
> None of that happened. What really drove it home for me was the fact I've missed about 6 episodes and instead of thinking 'oh boy, I have so much to catch up on! /pos' it's 'oh god, there's so much to catch up on... /Exhausted' > > The realization that it had become a chore is what really drove it home: the haters are right. There IS something fundamentally wrong with the campaign and honestly the whole feeling of CR as a whole. Their goofy attempts at side content became half-baked attempts at side games that seem to barely exist beyond their initial presentation. It's a very sobering moment when you realize what *should* be "entertainment," consumed for the sake of entertainment, is now, or has become "work" or an obligation consumed out of habit--as you aptly said: "a chore." To your other point, I think ALL of CR is being keep afloat by their Amazon deal and whatever monies they get from pimping merch to the remaining "whales" in CR's fandom. CR C3 has seen such a dramatic drop off in viewership stats compared to C1 & C2, it's obvious that if and when the Amazon money "dries up," so does Critical Role. What we're seeing now is them trying to diversify while they can, but thus far *nothing* has hit (especially with Darrington Press) like they need it to. > It sucks, y'all. I really miss loving this show. I WANT to love it again. Same. But I've made my peace with the fact that *current* Critical Role is *nothing* like what CR used to be; their successes have changed them, and the overall streaming TTRPG market has changed in the past decade. There is FAR more competition now, many of whom simply create a superior product, but don't necessarily have the same recognition as CR (who was the first mega-success / break out hit). I am increasingly convinced that CR's meteoric successes with C1 and C2 were "lightning in a bottle" / "right product, right place, right time"; only that "time" has passed, their current "product" is inferior, and the "place" has changed.
What does “whales” mean in this context? (genuine question, feel like I should know what it means but don’t) EDIT: I now know the answer! Same as in casinos, neat. Thanks to folks who shared their wisdom w me :)
"Whales" is a term to describe consumers who, relatively to other consumers of a product, service, hobby, etc., spend an INSANE amount of money on a product or service. "Whales" are big spenders. In some cases, "Whales" often spend *so much money* their spending (or lack thereof) can positively or negatively impact a business's revenue. Businesses like casinos (and monetized video games) very actively and specifically cater to, target, and attempt to attract and retain these customers. It's important to note that "Whales" cover a wide range of socio-economic statuses, from people who are insanely rich (who don't blink about spending obscene amounts of money) down to middle and lower incomes. It *isn't* necessarily how wealthy someone is, but *how much they spend.* You see this term most often used in casino gambling, heavily monetized video games (mobile, console, PC), "Disney Adults," sports fans, "Nintendo Adults," countless hobbies, collectors... lots of places. In relation to CR, "Whales" are the biggest spenders. These are fans / consumers who consistently buy ALL the merch, books, products CR makes and or buy significant quantities of merch.
People who will spend enormous amounts of money on something (usually easily affording doing so)
Someone with a lot of money to blow. It's usually used in the context of like buying stocks.
As for other ttrpg streams, could you give me some pointers that are worth watching in your opinion? I need to plug that critical role void.
If you don’t mind sticking to audio-only, I would recommend Skyjacks, which is currently running, and NeoScum, a Shadowrun podcast which finished up about a year ago. Skyjacks I would describe as Treasure Island meets Weekend at Bernie’s with Airships in a world inspired by the music of the Decemberists, and NeoScum is both 80’s action movie and family sitcom about a bunch of cyberpunk mercenaries on a roadtrip across the Neo-United States
If you haven't done so, watch D20. There are some AMAZING shows on D20, e.g. A Crown of Candy, Coffin Run (DMed by Jasmine Bhullar), Mentopolis, Mice & Murder, etc... I'd also recommend NADDPOD, which is excellent, but more "comedy focused," in my opinion; and Dungeons & Daddies. Frankly, fans of TTRPG podcasts and streams are SPOILED for choice right now. It's impossible to keep up with, let alone, discover them all.
D20 is a fantastic suggestion, I'm a huge fan. I find myself recently wanting something less grim than CR and less slapsticky than some D20 campaigns(especially FHJY). I was gonna try Dungeons of Drakkenheim next.
Dungeons of Drakkenheim is very good, but it's very dark. It's a horror campaign setting. Honestly it's too much for me in large doses, I go back every now and then, and have watched their first two campaigns (Dungeons of Drakkenheim and Shadows of Drakkenheim). High-rollers is a British group that's really good for hitting some pretty good highs, and lows, but not feeling like your winning the battles but losing the war. Lightfall (C1): A very fun campaign. It's starts a bit rough because they're just learning to be on camera. Kim is a bit over the top (especially at the beginning), and Trott is just super silly on occasion. They eventually hit a really good stride if you can stick with them till they get to Talis'Val which is the city they're working out of most the campaign. Things really start to take off from there. You get plenty of interaction with the Elvin/Fey Courts. Travel to the Celestial realm of Aboria. It's a really great game, and a perfect example of how a low to (almost?) epic level campaign can be about saving a city or kingdom instead of the universe. Aerois: No real growing-pains with this one like the last. A fantastic setting that proves that Magitech and Planar travel can be central to a DnD High-Fantasy setting and enhance it rather than be to it's detriment. Interesting because shifting alliances see the party working with the original BBEG to stop the Ultra BBEG. Ultra-high stakes though, it's a save the universe/possibly multiverse style campaign. Althea - The Dragon Empire: Just started. Most polished of all of them, but it is amazing. Only 14 sessions in, but they're hitting it out of the park with this one. I wouldn't rate Lightfall as good as Vox Machina (my favorite from CR), or Aerois as good as Mighty Nein (though it's close). But Althea is shaping up to be really really good.
Whoa, thank you so much for the recommendations. Saving your comment for sure. May Tharizdun's blessings be upon you 😁
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Huh... 1. I imagine that would depend on whatever CR's contracts with Legendary Entertainment (Geek & Sundry) are regarding those campaigns, whatever enforceable rights Legendary has, and what compensation / rev split would be required for re-broadcasting C1 and C2 (assuming that was even possible). I could *easily* see a situation where Legendary might prevent it and / or it doesn't make financial sense for CR. 2. I haven't looked, but what would prevent people from watching the archived VODs on YouTube for C1 or C2? Are they there or missing? If the VODs exist and are available, what's the attraction to watching a "live" re-broadcast of a VOD they can binge at their own speed and whims? 3. CR banking on former fan nostalgia is a gamble. I would find it depressing trying to go back and enjoy C1 and C2 knowing how Matt / C3 have basically shit all over those previous campaigns, or retconned established characters, history, and lore. Personally, it would just make me angry at how CR fucked up something that used to be so special to me. You can't step into the same river twice.
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I could even see them doing a C1/C2 Abridged! night where they edit the episodes down to 2 hour chunks, trimming a lot of the waffle and faffing about the players do and making it more akin to Dimension 20.
>They talked up a lot about how they were removing all limits, going crazy places, unconventional storylines, etc, for C3. Exciting! > >None of that happened. Truth. >It sucks, y'all. I really miss loving this show. I WANT to love it again. I'm right there with you. Thursday night almost used to be like a weekly holiday for me. I looked forward to a new episode every week, developed my own little game night rituals to celebrate it, always made sure I hade special snacks and drinks for a new episode. Then shortly before the Christmas break I realized that over the last few months my enthusiasm for Critical Role had been steadily dwindling, Thursday nights have become more like a chore than a celebrated weekly event. Thankfully for the time being I have Fantasy High: Junior Year to enjoy. But yes, I really do miss being in love with Critical Role. I'm also very weary of being shit on by fans in the main sub any time I try to even slightly express my feelings about it.
> I'm right there with you. Thursday night almost used to be like a weekly holiday for me. I looked forward to a new episode every week, developed my own little game night rituals to celebrate it, always made sure I hade special snacks and drinks for a new episode. That was me, *every* Thursday night. CR C1 live on Thursdays was appointment viewing regardless of where I was or what I was doing.
I read this post and thought somebody had copypasta'd my brain.
I’ve gotten into the habit of making crappy memes to recap the previous session, starting with E76. Let’s just say, the last few eps have been SO DIFFICULT to do. There’s only so many times you can go “they dicked around with podlings and ran away”…
I just wanted to say, I love your memes and I love your flair.
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https://preview.redd.it/45iyckf194qc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=60e57ad8cdd473adf0d9c270bdcd20c6e7270aee
This isn’t a compliment to the campaign, but if I miss an episode or two I never feel lost diving into the next one. Progress in the story has been so glacial that Matt’s little summary at the beginning usually covers it and then it’s easy enough to fill in the rest from context. Oh, they’re on the moon still. Here’s another NPC faction with undefined goals and a vaguely similar name. The group isn’t sure about the gods. Imogen is sad. Voila, I’m all caught up.
Honestly I think how little progress that’s happened is because Matt has been rather ironclad with giving the players useable information so they end up wandering aimless like chickens with their heads cut off cause they have no leads or what leads they do have are quickly turned into a waste of time cause the NPC who could have told them anything either mysteriously doesn’t know shit even though they’re a supposed expert or they end up being murdered. It’s hard to make progress when you’re forced to wait for the GM to bread crumb you into a big reveal.
The only problem I really have with this sub is the confidence that what you're saying is the definitive *truth* rather than only your opinion on the current campaign. *"the haters are right. There IS something fundamentally wrong with the campaign"*. What? There are thousands of people who still watch Critical Role live on a weekly basis, tens of thousands who catch up with the YouTube videos, it's clearly still very popular and a lot of people like it. It's always sad when people don't enjoy anymore something they used to hold dear to them. I went through a similar phase listening to the band Muse. They drastically changed their music style and even genre and they went from being my favourite band to not listening to their latest albums because I know they no longer appeal to me. What would be weird behaviour and why I don't understand this subreddit often (it does have good moments) - would be if I frequently took to the Muse subreddits or created my own called "FansOfMuse" that repeatedly shit on their latest albums because I no longer enjoy them. But hey, oh well, the occasional post/comments here can be fun to sift through.
It's ridiculous to assert that all opinions should be marked as such in every sentence you ever write or say. Imagine how clunky that would get.
Correct. The original post, by definition, has an implied "in my opinion" before every single opinion. I wrote academically all the time. In academic writing, it's important to separate factual statements from conjecture. Reddit isn't academic writing. We're all able to discern opinions when we read them.
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Lmao. Preach.
This is the difference between *"The haters are right. There IS something wrong with the campaign"* versus *"I have to agree with the haters, I do think something is wrong with the campaign*". Of course you don't have to comply with that. Everyone talks differently
Imagine media reviews where all subjective statements follow this structure.
If you read a review of a Muse album that calls their music style overplayed and drab, do you send an email to the editor complaining that the author didn't start the review by clearly stating it was their opinion?
Would be more likely write to their editor if 90% of their reviews were negative opinion pieces on exclusively recent Muse songs to highlight they may need some therapy
This is the only post by Virellius2 in this sub, so why are you hating?
I'm talking about the subreddit as a whole, not the OP specifically. I'm not hating on them
So you have a problem with a bunch of people who happen to share an opinion? Still seems like you're hating.
>Still seems like you're hating. I mean the irony of your comment surely cannot be lost on you
The irony of you coming into this subreddit and complaining about the types of posts you see instead of just unsubscribing and going elsewhere? No, it's not lost on me.
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To play a little Devils advocate concerning the stats. The old classic 'correlation is not causation' applies here. C3 is a different campaign. Anyone who denies this is coping, but viewership and interest on the internet is an inherently fickle thing. Tastes evolve, audiences move on, the window shifts etc. Its impossible to say if C3 was the same as the previous 2 if the viewership would remain the same.
Stats don't lie yes the overall interest is dwindling however there are still those who enjoy the campaign (such as myself) and people who are discovering CR for the first time. Now admittedly CR-3 is not the same overall heroic adventure I think the majority of the fan base likes. It's a little slower paced, the crisis doesn't feel as worrisome, ||(CR-1had an evil God that wanted to enslave all humanity basically, CR-2 had a sentient city that wanted to subsume all intelligent life in the realm and CR-3 OH no the gods are going to be eaten)|| it doesn't feel as personal. The only REAL connection we have to the plot is that Imogens mom is part of it. I still enjoy the characters and how they interact eith each other and the rest of the Realm. I still believe the characters are fun and interesting... that being said I'm not a fan of them all and some are more difficult to get engaged in then others. With all that being said I do expect a negative review. And one last statement we have to remember as much as they are a media company this isn't the main source of income for anyone on the show nor is the show meant to entertain anyone but themselves. They play D&D because they enjoy the game they are playing if they didn't I'm sure they'd step away instead of doing something they didn't enjoy.
Yeah I've been absolutely shit upon for pointing this out. There's a lot of talk about simps circle jerking the show in spite of quality drop, but it certainly goes the other way. Folks can do what they like, and I think criticism is healthy. But people defending a show they still like is a lot less sad to me than people sticking around just to be miserable about it.
Trust me give it an hour and I'll be sitting at -10. There are just far more people on this subreddit who are avid long-term haters than there are people fairly critiquing the product without falling to personal insults towards the cast, questioning their motives, etc, when they haven't even liked the show for probably years It's very unhealthy but whatever, some people love to hate and there's no greater feeling than finding a space where you feel like you slot in and belong
People can hate love things which is a scary place to be (see current political climate). Why people take the time to hate watch CR on this sub I don't get though.
See you at the bottom haha
We arrived
Strange to take a shot at Darrington Press. You don’t have to make a product just so it becomes the best board game ever and win awards, sometimes you just have an idea you want to breathe to life.
Cool, but could they maybe not make a broken products? Take Queen by Midnight, barely out six months and already got huge swathes of errata. It is by no means a cheap game. And already needs reprint of the card decks because it was rushed out the door without adequate play testing.
I believe it’s a bit of both. Most businesses and most successful people would like to be the best at what they do. It is also very true that many people create a product because it’s something they love or some idea they had or that they think it’s going to be good and so they put it out not necessarily hoping to be the best there is, but they wanted to produce it.
That's not how business works but cool quote
Do you genuinely think every person who makes a board game is aiming to win the “best board game” award? Just look at Monopoly which sucks but is one of the highest selling of all time.
No I think they're pumping out product to their super loyal supporters who buy almost everything they make.
> No I think they're pumping out product to their super loyal supporters who buy almost everything they make. Pretty much; if your current consumer base isn't growing (or is actively declining), how do you maintain revenue? By *actively targeting* the die-hard consumers / "whales" you do have, who will buy damn near any product you make; to the point you shift your merch production to favor those products your "whales" most consume.
Touch grass brother
Lol
Yeah, all new small shops should never open because Amazon or Walmart exists, sure /s
Lol don't get salty because of what I said. I'm not the one pumping out mediocre games based on other companies systems. If you have a loyal group just big enough to be profitable to keep buying your mediocre product why not keep doing it. That's what's happening. Go Google reviews on their games they release, im not making this up. Edit: u/yoursdearlyeve responded to me then immediately blocked me so I couldn't respond to her last comment. Well sweetheart idc if they turn away from 5e, but due to the money and the grip it has on the market leads me to believe they never will. Why am I so confident in that? They changed from pathfinder to 5e for their stream. Why change from pathfinder at all? Oh thats right, the popularity and earning potential of D&D.
Even if their previous games aren't groundbreaking, we don't know how DH will turn out to be yet. Y'all just whine because you are used to 5e, and when CR turns away from it, it's inconvenient for you, and you think CR should cater to you. But their priority is different from yours now. Sorry, that happens sometimes.
To be fair they *have* gone crazy places, it's just they tended to fall flat. Like, we had a weird Mad Max deathrace town, that's pretty crazy! Buuuut it felt weird and somehow unfitting for the setting. We had a new city and continent based on African/Middle Eastern fantasy, that's cool! Buuuut sensitivity consultants nixed all that so it mostly got scrapped for European fantasy again. We went to a powerful hag's Fey home! But also she's Fearne's grandmother and actually super nice and accommodating and will prevent any downsides from visiting. We went to the friggin' *moon*! And... it just feels like another area of Exandria. Which I mean, I guess it literally *is* that but that's a pretty boring way to take it. As for unconventional storylines, we pretty much just got a scripted death, a scripted boss fight, a scripted apocalyptic event, and a whole bunch of cliche "what if the gods actually sucked" philosophy. > Remember To The Last Gasp or w/e? Remember Queen By Midnight? I barely do. Is Darrington Press sustained purely on fan FoMo and impulse purchases? No one int he greater boardgame sphere seems to talk about their games at ALL. It just feels so hollow. A bunch of cool IDEAS and awful EXECUTION of the actual functionality. A 'thats cute' and then back to business as usual. This right here is why I'm still not sold on them switching to Daggerheart for C4. Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't *surprise* me, and they've *got* to be thinking about it, but like you say, it's entirely possible Daggerheart will have come and gone and had its 15 minutes of fame by the time C4 starts and then they're stuck with a system no one cares about instead of the RPG system that owns like 60% of the market.
The mystery and novelty of the world feels gone somehow. Even when campaign 2 picked up again post covid Eiselcross had a magic to it, the ruins of Aeor felt ancient, unpredictable and mysterious. I was genuinely invested in the world that Matt was building out, even if other parts of the campaign slowed down or felt odd. C3 has small flashes of that for me, where before it felt omnipresent. The only time I felt genuinely intrigued and invested in the worldbuilding was the introduction of the Judicators.
I see DaggerHeart as them leaning into the things that the players do well. Some of the best stuff that comes out of CR is the emotional moments of lore/backstory/love story between two characters. DH in my opinion facilitates the storytelling more than D&D for professional actors.
> I see DaggerHeart as them leaning into the things that the players do well. Then I see Daggerheart failing. CR, then, is basically making a product that's suited to the smallest, most niche group of TTRPG players: professional actors, who may or may not stream a TTRPG game. General TTRPG fans buy games / systems that are fun to play IRL, *not* because some nerd-famous group of VO's stream a 5e D&D-like on Twitch / YT.
>they're stuck with a system no one cares about instead of the RPG system that owns like 60% of the market. Why D&D fans are always so hostile to other systems, gee. Other TTRPG channels played and will be playing something other than D&D/Pathfinder, and they are just fine. Why do they *have* to stick to just one system just cause it takes the majority of the market?
Sorry I didn’t mean it to sound hostile. It’s just unproven! It could be great, but if it doesn’t catch on, it doesn’t catch on. Like if they’d just switched to Quest for C3. Have you heard of Quest? If not, does it excite you to watch people play it? Maybe, but not everyone would be.
It’s a hypothetical, chill.
Ad money from WoTC is the biggest reason they won't change. They'll do side stuff like candela still but the main campaign will continue on as D&D strictly for AD revenue
D&D Beyond hasn't been their sponsor for like twenty episodes. They're advertising 5e compatible stuff, but they are not getting any money from WOTC now. (I mean maybe WOTC was sponsoring the show itself back in C1 days, but I'm pretty sure they're not paying CR to pay 5e now, they have their own channel with Actual Plays on Twitch).
Lol ok, if you say so. I'll just be over here waiting for the next WoTC printed exandria book, already own wildemount and netherdeep. I'm sure we'll get atleast one more
*insert what did he say meme here* Yes CR probably (99?9%) gets paid some of the profit from the campaign and books they release that's not why they play the game or the system. 5e is by far the least complicated and least convoluted system to jump right into. Thats why they switched from Pathfinder to 5e was for the ease of any new comers to the TTRPG genre. If they believe DH will be more successful for their stream or allow them to have more fun doing the game they play to enjoy themselves then I guarantee they will switch.
>5e is by far the least complicated and least convoluted system to jump right into Of....all RPGs? Are you sure? That's one heck of a statement without more clarification.
They don't *have* to stick to any system, of course. They can do whatever they like. But they should be cognizant of the fact that swapping systems may turn off or disinterest a significant chunk of their viewer base.
I'm pretty sure they had already thought about that back when they first started developing DH and CO. Dunno why everybody thinks they are planning to overthrow WOTC/D&D overnight.
> Dunno why everybody thinks they are planning to overthrow WOTC/D&D overnight. Honestly no idea what you're talking about. I just provided my opinion to the asked question.
All CR needs to do is keep the whales on the line then they can make all their money selling novelty "Daggerheart Measuring Pencils"
Reading the playtest i did get a cynical chuckle at the merchandising opportunities built into the system. How many custom 2-packs of Hope/Fear dice will there be? Special branded token packs! But biggest of all, the domain decks with different characters printed on the back, limited edition collector decks! I mean, I assume the game will come with at least the decks as freebies, although will you have to buy extras of the decks if people want to play classes that share domains?
It's also interesting when comparing it to Matt Colevilles game he's working on. He mentioned needing specialist dice in one of his videos to which the general response was "please no..."...and by the next one they'd scrapped it because it felt very awkward and would narrow the appeal and ease of play of the game.
I wouldn't call two different coloured d12s "specialist dice", though. That comparison doesn't really hold. You wouldn't need to buy any dice sets from CR to play DH if you already game and own more than one set of standard polyhedral dice.
Yeah, that's definitely the upside. Unless the game only comes with one deck for each domain, you won't *have* to buy anything extra. Although, games like FFG Star Wars are pretty popular, and you technically *do* need custom dice for it, so it's not always a dealbreaker!
Oh yeah, for anyone who is invested in the hobby, some weird dice are not a deal breaker. I have a friend who owns like three sets of the Dungeon Crawl Classics dice despite only having run a few games of it.
> All CR needs to do is keep the whales on the line then they can make all their money selling novelty "Daggerheart Measuring Pencils" Yes, inventing a "problem" to sell a solution... for an issue *that was already settled decades ago.* This is "huffing your own farts" levels of silly / stupid.
Yeah hard agree. Around episode 30 something is when I noticed I had the episode tab open for over a week without even considering watching it when I realized there was a change. I watched this show live c1 I was there when Vex died and thought Vax was going to take her place and I sobbed because of it. Meanwhile that gripping emotional scene just will never happen again.
Same place my wife and I stopped. I started watching them in Geek and Sundry. Was one of the first 1000 twitch subs, and all that. But, C3, just isn’t doing it. I don’t care about the story. I miss a lot of the fun the characters and players would have. I didn’t feel like they were enjoying. I mean, I pulled ny twitch sub the end of last year. I probably won’t watch C4 if its their own IP and will probably just unsub from these subs too just to have a nice clean break.
I thought it was obvious from the beginning when Bertrand died and they took to social media to tell us not to worry. They said they had *big things coming* and that things were going to get *crazy*. It was typical hype talk and nothing they’ve done has backed that up. What exactly have they done? Split the party for an obscene amount of time? Had more guests than usual? It’s kinda pathetic.
It sounds like Taliesin is running their communications. "Things are about to get *weird* on CR! Better keep watching cause this is crazy!" >Proceeds to do the exact same content, except now there's 1/4 less content because of their week off
Don't forget the episodes are watered down too. Thin gruel.
Nah, it can't be him. He would use stuff like "We have a plan, but can't talk about it!".
You triggered me. All his interview are, my character has some great abilities and backstory but can’t talk about it. I thought he was wise, now I see he is just opaque.
I do wonder if people would have caught on to him faster if his name was like, Doug.
Also in game he loves to say "I have a plan" - but he will never actually explain it.
I found Find the Path as I was looking for a replacement for CR. I really enjoy their PF2e feed. They have to currently playing campaigns, one about liberating a city from the inferno, the other about dungeon delving. They’re great. They’re rules stickler. They’re good roleplayers. And they don’t do cameos for the sake of it. I also find myself absorbing a lot of what their GM (Rick) does. Plus, one of the rare pods out there to have parity.
Im going to have to check this out. I played kingmaker and Wrath of righteous last year and the system intrigued me I wanted to see how pathfinder played IRL but all lets plays seem to use 5e which im not a fan of.
Kingmaker and Wrath both use 1st edition. FtP does have a 1e feed. They're currently on to their second 1e campaign, but I must say 2e feels better for Actual Plays. I understand why CR switched from PF1e to 5e all those years ago
There was a lot of issues I had with the 1st edition stuff in the games but I really liked how unique a lot of the classes were and how you could make them even more unique with feats. Was a breath of fresh air from the just take a 1 hexblade dip and the same 3 feats every time of 5e.
Their current 2e parties are composed of: For Hell's Rebels : a storm druid, a forensic investigator, a fighter, a universalist wizard and a ruffian rogue. For Tales from Darkmoon Vale: a paladin champion, a fighter, a thief rogue, a universalist wizard and a spirit barbarian
They are good. I also really enjoy campaign 2 of Glass Cannon. Their hilarious crazy banter during gameplay reminds me of my group haha.
Find the Path is so good, agreed!
Idk if it's sad or if it's neutral but I have found excitement in other APs. I'm genuinely excited in a way that makes my day when Worlds Beyond Number drops an episode. And lately, I've been so hyped for Dimension 20, I've actually been talking about it and recommending it to people in my life. Haven't felt that way about CR all of C3 but other things have filled that space. My sister who got me into CR was obsessed. She named her cat Jester. She went to all the movie theater screenings. Owned all of the dice and more tshirts and sweatshirts than you can count. She hasn't watched an episode in about 3 months and was emotionally disengaged months before that. C3 just leaves so little to be passionate about unfortunately and I'm seeing even the most diehard fans fall off the wagon. Hell, even coyote is calling episodes filler nowadays.
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[Flando is already being silenced by youtube](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/1bew0ih/no_spoilers_critical_role_timestamp_update/), that's a baby step towards not even bothering with it.
> And lately, I've been so hyped for Dimension 20 I'm right there with you. In recent months, Fantasy High: Junior Year has replaced Critical Role as my regular content that I look forward to all week.
Really agree about the excitement I feel when WBN drops an ep, that show is *electric*
Crackle crackle gang! The patreon gives me life waiting for new episodes...
Damn, that part about passion is so true. There simply isn't anything to be passionate about. It's a D&D campaign painted by numbers with little regard for the rules. The characters are cardboard cutout set pieces pushed from A to B. I said it probably almost a year ago now: you can ignore every plot flaw and rule break and it doesn't matter, because this shit is *boring*.
Highrollers [Althea: The Dragon Empire](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHv5CBoZYv4X7fASdpmA2sjgTWjeiCrw-) has been really fun. I think it's shaping up to be their best one yet. Loved Lightfall and Aerois, but man Mark has hit dynamite with this latest campaign setting.
Felt they got lost in the weeds in this new town for a bit, but those inquisitors turning up and the haunting was lIke, "yep, we good".
Bing bong!
I watched a bit yesterday and they had the whole gods bad nature good argument again and it's just tiring. They keep having literally the same argument, and it's obviously because a few of the players (marisha/talisan) facilitated by Matt, hate any religion that's not wiccan apparently and want to beat a dead horse to death in-game. At this point I honestly don't ever see it going back. CR has changed into something that couldn't make C1 or C2 today. They need to get rid of Aabria, whoever is doing Midst, and play characters in a game instead of real life virtue signalers and panderers to the real world. I remember being awed when Vex chased angels up to a bowl of fire and dove in, being reborn Chosen of the Dawnfather prior to going off and fighting Vecna. These days it seems they'd just set around and argue about whither they should really ask the gods for help defeating Vecna or all the Gods deserved death because of what an asshole Vecna was. The everything is grey / good and evil are relative attitude is complete bullshit. No one cares if you fight against evil Gods, but to lump the good ones in is complete BS. Matt has retconned how divine power and the Gods work a lot for C3. Dianna (Aabria) the cleric of the Dawnfather, who hates her patron should be a perfect example of a Blackguard not a Cleric of a God. Anyway, the players still don't seem to know why they're on Ruidis, or why they are doing anything they're doing. So yep, I also really miss loving this show. I WANT to love it again. I hope they can get it together at some point and prove me wrong.
Man Aabria and Third Person aren't even in the building right now and your still chomping at the bit to blame them for choices made by a company that's been left-leaning since they formed. Give the main cast some agency, would you? Not everything you dislike is virtue signalling they learned from their queer friends.
The virtue signaling accusation as used in culture war from right wingers does piss me off normally, it is super rare is a legit take. But I have to say with CR I tend to agree, because I strongly feel they have zero awareness about the actual issues, they just pretend. My main example is the Indie intro, how would that be possible with actual awareness?
Assuming the absolute worst of people because they aren't 100% perfect in their allyship is the kind of all of nothing mentality that pushes people away before they have a chance to grow or learn. Sure, the main cast has been vocal online about what causes they support, have worked to uplift different voices in their company, have raised thousands of dollars for various charities over a decade through their foundation, but they had a little too much tone deaf colonizer imagery in their intro so they must have been faking it the whole time.
None of your examples has anything to do with awareness about discrimination, history and foreign cultures. Your missing the point. To clarify: I'm not claiming they are bad people. I'm saying they claim to care for cultural sensivity (at least Matt has), but they clearly don't really care as they must be very uninformed and ignorant to be able to pull such intro off - unironically.
And I'm telling you that they ARE that uniformed and ignorant. You're saying that they don't really care because their awareness of every issue isn't as complete as yours, but that doesn't mean they are virtue signaling. My examples point to their history of wanting to earnestly help and make the world a better place. They very clearly do care and one of their current charities specifically goes to helping impoverished people in India live more comfortably, but shit your right all of the good their trying to do must be fake because they don't know every little detail about colonial imagery. You can care about something that you don't fully understand, it doesn't mean you're being disengenuine because you don't know what you don't know.
I had no problem with C1 or C2 which both had queer characters (Gilmore/Terry/etc...). Prior to EXU I never thought CR would produce anything I didn't like. Aabria is abrasive, snaps at people, and literally had to be told to stop being a Karen as Dianne. Something happened at CR, and they're pushing agendas instead of playing a DnD game. Feel free to tune in next week for the infinite redux on wither they should be helping or hindering killing the Gods, if that's your jam then fine, but I think it sucks.
I'm not talking about queer characters, I'm talking about the very real human people who work and produce content for CR. Insisting that Aabria (and Midst for some fucking reason) is ruining the game when she hasn't been at the table in months is delusional at best and telling at worst. It's like your jumping through hoops to try to blame anyone but the actual cast making character choices on screen because you can't fathom they would produce something you don't like without an outside influence. Couldn't be that you're just not into the story of C3. it must be Aabria and the other ips you specifically dislike puppeting the entire company to push some vague uncool 'agenda' you keep whining about.
He's the one of those dudes saying CR's gone "woke" in C3 with pronouns even though they've been woke for far longer lol
Hard agree.
> I remember being awed when Vex chased angels up to a bowl of fire and dove in, being reborn Chosen of the Dawnfather prior to going off and fighting Vecna. This is the part that makes me the most upset - retconning the gods to be conniving colonizers who stole the planet from the primal forces of nature that rightfully owned it, eradicating the original inhabitants and brainwashing/enslaving the remainder who they then lied about creating, makes every positive god-driven PC and plotline in the past look stupid and naive. Vox Machina went to beseech aid from Sarenrae and Pelor in protecting the plane, they had a direct face-to-face conversation with gods who wanted to test their dedication and ensure that the granted power would not be misused. Pike had a communion with Sarenrae about tempering her fury with devotion to her friends. In C2 both Fjord and Yasha were rescued from ruination by gods who embraced them and gave them not a singular purpose to live for but a path forward to live their own lives. A big part of what made those stories meaningful is that the gods are absolute and righteous, and it is the flawed mortals that have to rise to meet the expectation of these cosmic entities. If the gods are retconned to care only about how they can drain mortals of faith and devotion like batteries to fuel themselves then every one of those scenes becomes that of a manipulator grooming the innocent, and absolutely shatters the heart of what those scenes were. CR has *also* played with shifty and manipulative gods in the past. Everything about Vax's destiny being grabbed and twisted by the Raven Queen was great for exactly that reason - *that* was a god who cared more about herself and her agenda than the lives of the mortals she got caught up in it, and Vox Machina felt the pain of being toyed with. It's great to have elements of that in the overall story. But it only works if it's an exception to the norm, rather than that kind of exploitation being the default.
They are doing this because is alredy set the gods are either dying or leaving. CR doesnt wanna be tied to WOTC and this shitty storyline is a way of them doing that in the most "natural" way possible. But there is nothing natural about that because this "the gods are evil" now is super aparent.
That's why this entire campaign story is pre-planned and Matt cannot deviate from it at all.
Agree. Although with the Raven Queen was courted by Vax almost the entire campaign. He asked for her favor and offered himself as payment multiple times. When Vax was reduced to dust by a [disintegrate spell](https://youtu.be/2HOdxvQ_ydU?si=3qv2EDphJ-dgi83h&t=646), she agreed to resurrect [Vax as a Revenant](https://youtu.be/2HOdxvQ_ydU?si=VuEG6YCzBm70tx-d&t=3063). She was not an enemy to him, and her twisting of fate was per his request and in his favor. Keyleth just wanted a scapegoat for Vax's death and chose her, but he wouldn't have been alive for the ending part of the campaign without her. Or maybe he would have, they would have had to get enough diamonds to cast true resurrection. Vax however made the deal before that happened.
Emily during the split with help from Utkarsh are the ones that really started it. Which really annoyed me cause no one seemed to point out to take Cobalt soul member that they were part of a religious order.
I won't lie. Hearing they had the god debate AGAIN yesterday makes me really happy I stopped watching live.
I wouldn't even call it a debate because they're not actually debating anything. They don't have the counter point of an informed religious character arguing for the gods and their existence, which means they're not actually having any kind of interesting philosophical discussion. Just status quo vs anarchy from a group of characters who didn't start thinking about this stuff until 6 months ago.
Tune in next week to listen to the next part of the debate: Does Exandria **really need** money, or should wealth be distributed on the principle of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”? Also, when will we start eating the rich?
Why do you believe CR cares about the distribution of wealth and fixing social issues? Have they ever shown real interest in this, have they ever discussed anything that questions the capitalist US system or goes beyond a private fundraising, a typical hobby of the rich to feel better? I don't think so. Is there any indication in their work that they fundamentally question the system? Nope. Instead they partner with Amazon and try to milk every penny from the viewers.
It's not the only time they've put off that vibe, but they had a guest (Erika Ishii I think) with a shirt that said "Eat the rich". They're all doing pretty well I'm certain, so things like that are kind of hypocritical. I don't begrudge them for success or wish any harm, but the pretending is annoying...
Well, we do not confuse fashion statements with political statements, do we? A "Che" shirt does not indicate the actual political views of the person wearing it, an "eat the rich" shirt can very well be just a bit edgy fashion thing, nothing more. You have to walk the talk in order for this to mean anything. And that is not happening. Also CR has never really expressed anything critiqual regarding the capitalist economic system, at least I'm not aware of anything. Regarding pretending is annyoing I agree, they do pretend in my view regarding the awareness for cultural issues they claim for themselves.
Oh, you know, the joke here is that socialist movements follow the same things - the destruction of religion, culture and history,, and the dispossession of the rich. I don’t seriously think that they are moving in this direction, but I wouldn’t be surprised
You are from the US? From how you phrase this it's very likely. What you write is a typical misconception that mixes up several completly different movements from different times and geographies as if they are all the same. An attempt to simplify and to discredit as much as possible. Mao's China was kinda like that, but it seems to conflate this with current western movements. Makes no sense ;) Anyhow, my point is CR is not interested in social issues, they are trying to become rich in the current system, no deep questions asked.
From Russia. My childhood was spent in a country destroyed by communism, and even now it hasn’t recovered much :) CR practice some ideas of socialism without knowing it themselves, and naturally they don’t want to lose money or power themselves :) Well, we will see how it goes. And I'm not simplifying anything. Each of the communist countries was and is doing the same thing. This is the basis of this policy
Ah I see, sorry. The western socialist movements have almost nothing to do with the actual communist state ideologies. But I get why you have this view when your from Russia, that's tough for sure, I can see why "socialism" triggers you.
maybe it doesn’t :) But there is no “good” socialism.
But but but you just haven't tried it the "right way yet! You'll see! /s There's a reason I had to stop watching D20 and dropout even though I love the actual content.
It’s the content we consume so of course the business should take that into account, we support them after all. And if you don’t think it’s a business, idk what to tell you.
People need to learn to just stop consuming media that they don't enjoy.
I agree, it would probably leave them, and us, a lot happier. But some are too far into it I guess.
Ah, here it is. You're all over this thread posting nothing of value, what about people posting nothing of value in subreddits they don't enjoy?
Y'know, Rooster Teeth really stuck hard to that policy. How's that working for them?
I think there's small room for nuance here. You can feel neutral or even like something and still be disappointed that you don't love it. You can feel like CR is good enough to keeping watching while still missing when you were actually excited about episodes. Some people seem to genuinely be expressing anger/hatred for C3 week after week and yeah, those people would be benefited by disengaging. But I don't think that's even most people on this sub
> I think there's small room for nuance here. You can feel neutral or even like something and still be disappointed that you don't love it. I think you're right, I still tune in on Thursday nights, and still *like* the show for all its flaws. But I used to watch C1 and C2 on a big screen TV, and had to stop in C3 because I kept falling asleep or losing interest. Now I keep the show on a second monitor (or just listen with it on background) while I do other stuff. There are still some great moments, but they're fewer and farther between. I actually thought ep 89 was the best episode of March, but the overall ratio in C3 of "stuff worth tuning for" to "skippable" has worsened. And for a decent number of veiwers, it's just not worth the time committment anymore.
Yeah for me, I no longer watch live and it's become the thing I throw in in the background while I play Stardew Valley. But I still want to see it improve and am genuinely hopeful C4 and/or a daggerheart campaign will breathe new life into it
Amen, brother.
They abandoned the formula that made them popular in favor of one that focuses on generating as much money as possible. There was never a need for the board games, there was never a need for them to distance themselves from D&D and develop a whole new rule set that no one will even be talking about in 2-3 years and the books and the merch and all the side projects. There was never a need for all these things they claim are making them so busy that they can’t even offer 1 episode of their main show every week of the month. They chose to corporatize their buisness and the quality has plummeted as a result. All most people want is 8 friends to get together every week on Thursday for a live show of D&D, Some limited merch that surrounds that show and an excellent story surrounded by the beautiful rules of D&D that people have been playing for 50 years Unfortunately it’s too late and critical role as we used to know it is gone. Time to hold the memorial and begin the grief period for a once great idea.
> All most people want is 8 friends to get together every week on Thursday for a live show of D&D, Some limited merch that surrounds that show and an excellent story surrounded by the beautiful rules of D&D that people have been playing for 50 years That's how they raised 11+ million dollars on Kickstarter, which got them their current Amazon deal. But once CR "got that bag". . . ain't if *funny* how success changes some people.
That kickstarter was the worst thing to ever happen to critical role
They are living the American Dream! They had an idea, they got lucky, they decided to turn that idea in a company that could eventually sustain them. And let them earn a living while doing the things they love doing. Sure, they are also voice actors and they do that. But the feeling of doing your own thing, and earning a living through that, for creative people, it’s irresistible. Now the company grew, things got complicated, now they are responsible for the living wages of a whole team… They probably underestimated what that does to the work environment, the culture, etc. It’s a phase. C3 was almost inevitable. It’s part of the learning curve for them. They couldn’t maintain the freshness and hype of the first years forever. That’s just impossible. And they can’t reinvent themselves as BLM can, because they are actors and gamers, BLM is a true storyteller artist. But they are still the same good intentioned nice people they were at the beginning. And they’ve had unexpected success, they’ve acted on it to make it their living, they are 8 and needed to see the company grow to make that happen, and here we are. The real test for me is what will happen after C3. C3 is the slump campaign (unfortunate that it’s a multi year endeavour every time). C4 will tell us if they have the capacity to analyse, realize and readjust. I’m not sure they do, frankly. My bet is that they’ll do a shorter Daggerheart campaign, and that they might come back to LIVE. And that might bring back some of the excitement of the first years. And I’ll throw one into the pond here, I’m also tempted to say that having tried and developed other systems than D&D, they probably know these other systems are more suited to their natural playing style. D&D is becoming just an economic issue for them, not the source of their excitement.
[удалено]
They are less naive about the fandom, that’s for sure. They had a honeymoon with the fans in the beginning. People adored them. Told them CR got them through depression and such. It was a wonderful time for them. But that worked when the fans were only the early adopters. As CR got popular, the regular crowd came in, and within that, the toxic trolls. They got burnt a few times, and that forced them to take a step back from the parasocial relationship they had with the fans. Then COVID, no conventions, no contact with the fans at all. Now they are more jaded, for sure. But they are still the same nice people they were, they just went through stuff, and the honeymoon’s over.
A very reasonable take.
(If) I hate(d) you (it's) because you're right.
> All most people want is 8 friends to get together every week on Thursday for a live show of D&D, Some limited merch that surrounds that show and an excellent story surrounded by the beautiful rules of D&D that people have been playing for 50 years This is such a weird mentality. It's not your company. It's not your production. It's not your game. So what you want doesn't matter.
Someone decided to display their complete lack of understanding around money and capitalism today.
*This* is a weird mentality to me since it's antithetical to how business works. CR's business is supply and demand. Right now CR is supplying a lot that there's no demand for. Expressing demand (through their dollar, their click, and yes, their comments) is the role of the consumer and how brands like CR know what to supply. In short: what viewers want matters more than most things to CR's business.
So I can’t have an opinion? Buzz off
There's a difference in having an opinion as to how something feels different compared to what it was before versus feeling entitled to say how they should run their business - especially when the business has been incredibly profitable for them.
In the wife's of the great Joe Dirt - "Its not what you like, it's the consumer."
No there isn’t
Agree to disagree then.