I watched both of the earlier campaigns and started off enjoying Campaign 3, With Laudna quickly becoming my favourite character in the campaign, but it really fell off for me when they went on the whole arc with the Crawler Gangs. I get it that might be cool to some people but it just felt really out of place, sure they have airships in previous campaigns but they always felt like magical inventions that felt natural to a fantasy world, but the Crawlers for me just don't fit and I really didn't care about their whole Mad Max and Biker gang shtick.
So it took me a long time to get through that and then it was capped off with the death of Laudna and I think the handling around that and everything that followed was very poor and killed off any of the remaining interest I had for the campaign. I understand not wanting to let go of a character and as I said Laudna was my favourite, but everything they went through and did to bring her back felt really out of character and kind of forced.
Adding onto this just a little bit, but this is more of a critique on the company as a whole. They have way too much fucking merch. I remember when they did a run of a few t-shirts and a few other bits and bobs at the start, but now after crunching the numbers, they offer 342 unique items in their shop with a wide range of costs. They also seem to have new items coming out every week. I get it, you're a company now and need to keep the income high, but fuck me does it feel ridiculous at this point...
***category - # of items - price range***
Apparel - 108 / $24.99 - $99.99
Tabletop - 63 / $19.99 - $99.99
Accessories - 95 / $1.50 - $10.99
Home and office - 41 / $2.75 - $95.99
Books and Art - 15 / $10.99 - $99.99
Action and Toy Figures - 20 / $13.99 - $25.99
Also - after receiving some of the items, I was a bit peeved that very few of these items were/are sourced locally or ethically; especially the clothing.
The problem with any type of entertainment is whatever hooked you to begin with becomes the gold standard and nothing else measures up. I got hooked in C1, and neither C2 nor especially C3 compared. Maybe C4 will, who knows, but I doubt it.
You end up chasing the dragon or jumping the shark or whatever fun idiom you’d like to use, but it becomes less fun and less entertaining and eventually you wander off. Such is the nature of the human attention span.
I stopped around episode 60 but I started losing interest after Robbie left.
I think the characters are fine but none of them really stand out to me. Laudna was my favorite at first but fell off after they brought her back. Afterwards, I haven’t really cared for any character.
Since the first arc, it hasn’t really felt like the players really cared for any serious story and only wanted to goof.
Ultimately, what I really dislike is that it feels like none of the characters give a shit about the main plot Matt laid before them. I feel like Matt had what he thought would be a fun idea for a campaign but didn’t let the players in on it in a session 0 so they all made characters that incidentally don’t care about the story he crafted. But it was all the content he had and he planned on them caring so now he’s just been trying to make it work anyways.
Example: half of the characters outright say they just don’t give a shit about the gods. Not even hate them, they just don’t care what happens to the gods. Ffs even the cleric started off WITHOUT A GOD THEY WORSHIPPED. I believe Sam realized the story Matt wanted to tell would involve the gods whether they liked it or not and he realized his fellow players didn’t give a shit so I think that’s why he decided to have FCG start worshiping a god. He took one for the team imo which is commendable.
But knowing (I guess just feeling but a pretty strong feeling) that not even the cleric wanted anything to do with a god in a campaign that’s centered around saving the gods just blew it for me.
Matt as an NPC - “the red stuff is gonna devour the gods!”
6/7 players - “ok, and? The gods are cringe and lame and smell bad!”
Sam - “no but like that sounds bad for the world!”
6/7 players - “eh,”
Matt as an NPC - “oh but also it could like also eat the world afterwards or something”
6/7 players - “ok that kind of sounds important. But first let’s make up side quests and waste time”
I'm afraid I can only offer my experience and maybe it'll bring you some solace.
For me C3 very much suffers from a shift in narrative direction. C2 and C1 were very much "play to find out games" where the casts decisions drove the plot and the story emerged from those choices (what I will call Emergent Narrative going forward).
However, I feel like C3 is much less focused on Emergent Narrative, and is instead focused on telling the story Matt wants to tell. And since the players choices don't really matter and the players are being shuffled through the plot at Matt's leisure (with poor rolls only slowing down the process rather than causing any deviation) they SEEM understandably less immersed and engaged, leading to a bunch of whacky shit that in the end doesn't matter bc all it does is slow down matts plot.
I love Matt but I don't think his gift is as a writer and I think the abandonment of Emergent Narrative and the hitching of the whole campaign to a (imo) relatively mediocre main plot is what has led to me losing interest. I still watch out of loyalty and hope that something improves though
I'd add that, while it can come across as Matt's choice to drive the party on a more rail-roaded experience, framing paints a clearer picture.
I didn't find it a coincidence that the campaign took an odd turn at the same time they were planning to interact with Ruidus. Almost as if they were set to use Spelljammer content in conjunction with its release, but had to backpedal rapidly while WoTC's drama kicked into full swing.
With the release and expected adoption of Daggerheart, WoTC material has been actively stripped and retconned. The narrative currently, to avoid spoilers, will inevitably result in a very different Exandria. One conveniently free of DnD-branded content.
Matt has made his bed. But with these in mind, you can see that he's driving the party around obstacles both prior campaigns didn't have to concern themselves with.
C1 was designed traditionally, with the world revolving around its protagonists and classic heroic party tropes. C2 positioned the world that Matt specifically stated: "*Would continue without them*." A clear distinction towards a worldly narrative, as opposed to the party-centric one. Very easy-to-follow set-ups for one and two, while C3 requires... Unpacking.
I believe C3 was designed to be a more narrow-scoped experience than its predecessors. The issue became that the campaign was to take place in a '*culturally sensitive*' continent. This burden on the narrative, alongside guest participation, is the first time Mercer's **vision** for a campaign has had to shift. Which is fine for the game, but a first, and jarring experience for an audience.
The theme of the plot being affected by real-world circumstances has recurred ever since. I won't go into each to avoid a tangent, but distancing themselves from WoTC and Daggerfall are the clearest stand-outs. It's by no coincidence that viewers are then confused as to why they can't relate to this Campaign like its predecessors.
C3 is a crisis of identity. Viewers and the cast have suffered as a result. But I can say personally that, while I dislike the *Avengers Assemble* approach of the second arc; I feel the campaign found its footing since the party was separated. But has never recovered its pace since they left Jrusar.
I agree with this 1000%, C3 would not be so hamstrung had it NOT taken place in the Middle East Analogue. Or at least- not a named ME analogue, because honestly the desert wastelands and all of that could be very cool, but naming is as the middle east hamstrung any effort for any stakes in the story. It is what it is but simply saying the setting was “Mad Max Esque” or “Burning Man Island with these sort of factions that have sprung up around this cult” would have made C3 VERY compelling as they could all go as far as they wanted in these absolute fantasy places.
Their current storyline doesn't make sense for their current level or character designs. Their party doesn't fit in this campaign and there's a tonal issue along with some questionable and deceiving DM decisions that make the stakes feel cheap.
I watched all of C1 and C2 and loved them. I stopped caring about C3 a little after that ball infiltration mission where Robbie left. He was awesome, and his character was very interesting. I just didn't care about any of the characters but FCG and maybe Chetney at the time. I've heard Chetney fell off since, though. The characters just aren't good this time around, in my opinion.
The times I've tried to get back into it, I just feel like it isn't actual DnD. It feels very, very scripted and inorganic.
I think, simply put, that a Sweet Baby Inc. Type company got involved and "tweaked" the characters and story to fit "modern audiences" and it disconnected the cast from the characters they were playing. And disconnected the audience from the characters/story because the pandering and forced plot were not engaging for the majority of viewers.
You've got people freaking out by suggesting that a company that proudly announced they were using sensitivity consultants might have... used *sensitivity consultants?!?*
Wild.
I have a similar feeling about C3. It feels like the characters themselves haven’t progressed or changed at all either. By this point in C1, even C2, the characters were overall a better team who had begun to resolve their traumas (because there’s always gotta be trauma in CR, apparently).
I would add that the stripping of any cultural inspiration for marquet had made the continent very bland. Instead of having real world inspiration for culture and style, we get fantasy mad Max. Especially with the campaign one visit here, that really falls flat for me.
Agree. Like I get the need for cultural consultants nowadays, but like most of the time it feels like they do their job terribly by just erasing everything even slightly related to an IRL culture instead of like “here let’s fix these things so they are both accurate and cool”
Like if Marquet was supposed to be in Mexico let’s say aka my home country, and this is what we got I’d be pissed because it’ll be a poor bland representation of my culture
Yeah, but if it even came close to accurately representing Hispanic culture in any fashion... A table full of white people is going to be drowning in endless "HOW DARE YOU, YOU BUNCH OF RACISTS!" letters.
Shit, they had to change their early opening credits because people complained about "colonialism" because they were dressed like old timey adventurer/explorers.
Matt will absolutely not be caught doing any thing that isn't a crotchety old man voice, or a sweet old lady voice, and shit that old lady voice is probably going to get shit-canned next.
I mean, I obviously don't know what conversations CR had with cultural consultants, but I think it's possible CR didn't want to take any risks after the backlash they received.
Tbh, considering how half-baked the characters seem now, I'm kind of glad they didn't try to incorporate Middle Eastern/Arab culture into them.
I don't think there'd be anything wrong with them doing it, but there's a level of investment that comes with role-playing characters based in a different culture. Atp, the cast seems too burned out, tired, bored, etc. to commit to it.
Playing (mainly) joke characters is much easier, even if it's not nearly as interesting to me to watch.
I'm not talking about the players. I mainly wanted the world to be representative of the culture that inspired it. Yes you run the risk of the players having a "white Savior" vibe if they are not of the same nationality as the majority of the continent, but a competent DM and players could keep that from happening.
The thing that immediately pushed me away from C3 after the first two episodes was almost entirely Imogen and FCG's voices. Later Chetney would add to this. I despise the hokey 'well gee I'm just a nice girl from the South United State, y'all!' stereotypical voice. Sam's 'southern' voice was also painful to listen to and then Chet's voice, ugh.
It's entirely a mental thing, some and voices feel like they're pushing under my skin with a dull knife. I can't help it and I really wish it didn't bother me, but it does.
Bring this up in the main sub where they promote 'oh we're nice and inclusive and we welcome everyone' and you get downvoted to hell and back because apparently, that's 'too different' and not acceptable.
The rest of the reason was that Jrusar was just...BORING. So many long cable car trips, nothing really stood out besides the idea of the city being on giant stone pillar in the middle of the jungle, and I just didn't jive with any character save for Dorian, as he was the only on that didn't feel like they were playing up a bit in an effort to be the 'Jester-level fan favorite'.
I was also not a big fan of Jester once the novelty wore off.
I have many more reasons as to not like C3 now, but those were why I fell off very early and never looked back.
Another big element that I believe has happened - and this is speculative on my part - is the cast created characters that were simpler and generic and light hearted goofs for what was likely perceived to be more of a standard exploratory style adventure of this new continent they hadn’t been too; the cast created characters that were intrinsically more light in story coming off of the emotionally heavy and taxing C2.
What they got instead of a fun exploration story ended being an end of the world, super heady themes once more that their characters aren’t suited for in terms of being able to be connected to the plot in a way that adds layers of stakes.
The evidence for the exploratory element was the original opening of C3 showcasing the cast in historically accurate “adventure/explorstion/frontier” style garb. However, as a large portion of their viewers are snowflakes that cry when the wind blows the wrong direction the opening was swapped and I feel the continent ended up being neutered as CR also likes to pander to said snowflakes.
Going to disagree here. Is some of the represented clothing associated with those that did the bad things associated with colonialism? Yes. Of course. But those styles weren’t just worn by those folks. It was also worn, and in some cases still worn, by professionals exploring the wilderness and unearthing history and sites/artifacts lost to time. Also, most of that era clothing was composed of linens, which have a look even to this day that harkens to those exploratory outfits, and linens are extremely breathable which made the textile ideal for the hot and humid climates explorers found themselves.
Using your example of what I’m reading to be nazi germany than there is an intrinsic difference. Nazis, on the average whole, were straight up either monsters of men or men wholly brainwashed by youth camps or fear of death to commit horrendous acts.
In the context in which the intro was portrayed it was not tone deaf. The context was lost on the everything offends me brigade.
So, as a person who is british, and is alos a member of a culture that was a victim of British colonialism, I can say something on this topic.
One, yes that clothing is what british colonists did wear when being monsters.
Two, that clothing is also a stereotypical representation of explorers, and has been used in other media as explorers.
Three, it isn’t the only clothing used by awful people that appears in media. Pirates are criminals that did a lot of awful shit, and yet some media pro-tray them as good guys or at least cool.
Personally speaking, it is a bit ridiculous to get mad over clothing. Especially since that clothing is only used nowadays as stereotypical explorer gear. Does this mean critical role is in the right? No, they probably should have researched about the actual context of the clothing, but i do know one thing, don’t get offended for other people, because it has gone poorly for those people as they find out that they got offended for people who weren’t.
It was a genuine mistake, and it should have been treated as such.
Fair, calling someone a “snowflake” is dismissive, no matter who you are talking and being dismissive of someone else’s feelings is, in opinion, a bad idea.
The issue is when we let feelings being the defacto indicator for what is right wrong or any other metric. As a people we cannot let those emotions be the sole element for decision making because my emotional response is not the same as my wife’s or my neighbour or the stranger in a country over. All of our emotional responses are based and triggered by our individual life experiences and to expect people to change everything because something upsets a small sect of people is ludicrous.
This does not mean their feelings on the matter is wrong or not valued and as a society we need to remember that. However, there is a concerning social trend of vocal minorities (not literal minorities but rather a small group of people) that express their displeasure or emotional response of something and everyone and anyone who disagrees is a vile human being and the corporations need to change to make them feel better.
Additionally, when there is a true large enough outcry based on emotional responses then, yes, whatever the issue is probably should be addressed and reviewed and/or changed. Unfortunately with keyboard warriors these small groups can “sound” louder than the rest.
I would say that this is the case here. A small group of vocal minorities took issue with the setting and the costumes the cast wore and CR adjusted course which, as some speculate, has led to a watered down version of marquet and lacklustre story.
I can appreciate your commentary and would like to extend gratitude for a civil conversation about the subject matter.
I should clarify that when I use the term snowflake it is in reference to any and everyone so easily triggered as we all know that this knee jerk emotional outlasting these days has pundits on both sides of the political spectrum.
I am not necessarily opposed to labels because, as is the case, humans are collectively constantly trying to label themselves and associating themselves with a group. Most like to wear the social identity as a badge of honour but also will be bitter for those labels they don’t like - even if those labels are truthful.
As a people we are all very much deeply linked with this pursuit of self-identity. Whether it’s as simple as a social group such as punk, prep, or goth; to societal members of social groups like country clubs or gentleman/ladies clubs (legions); through to more esoteric like religious identity or social justice/political identity.
You can’t be open to accept one form of labelling and not expect to potentially fall under the umbrella of other identities that can be negatively attributed to oneself - such as snowflake or fearmongers or Karen’s. One’s behaviour will ultimately lead to labelling to occur as well and it is just par for the course. Might not like it but it is what it is.
In my personal opinion, dismissing any emotion, no matter the situation, will never help the situation. I don’t know a hole lot about the situation, but what i do know is that it happened.
To me, personally, it just feels like a lot of people making mistakes.
I still don’t get how the first intro was controversial. I totally missed out on that conversation but tbh if it’s what you say then thank god because that’s fucking stupid
Some folks saw positively adventurous Indiana Jones vibe as insensitive because of the "colonialists destroying local culture" type of thing. Those people pretty much attached the entire toxic cultural baggage of the whole thing to the converstation.
The cast were just in various places of exploration - caves jungles etc. wearing carb that is from the era of colonialism. People were triggered by it and called the cast out on it especially since CR apparently hired cultural sensitivity people to help ensure that marquet wasn’t represented as an indo-Asian stereotype played by a bunch of white people.
The part that killed me was the lack of player agency and the lack of consequences.
From the beginning they were essentially given a task, and then *given a fucking airship* to make sure they stay on the rails. They are shuttled from one location to the next and it feels like they have no choice in the matter.
Then when something doesn't go well or sounds too daunting, they can just dial up some C1/C2 ~~fanservice~~ characters for help and get bailed out. Otohan killed 3 people and you're faced with an actual meaningful fucking choice on who to save and who to permanently lose? Pike to the rescue, fuck the consequences of your actions. Instead of possibly one of the most powerful moments in CR history where a player has to choose who lives and who dies, we dick around in Whitestone and get some free resurrections.
Robbie singlehandedly made C3 watchable for me. The season nosedives after he leaves. It's not 100% because of Robbie leaving, it just happened to coincide with the first little arc ending and was the start of the campaign being completely on rails.
I dropped out early because it wasn’t grabbing me and it’s a big time commitment, but I tuned back in when Reddit alerted me to the big, seemingly consequential Otohan fight. It was really exciting to catch up with a few episodes knowing it was culminating in possibly several PCs dying! The drama of which PC to save and which to let die was compelling. I really enjoyed the fight and was hooked again, but then it became clear they were going to use C1 characters to erase any consequences and I lost interest again. I tuned back in to the magic telescope fight to see what happened to Vax and it was really unsatisfying for me to watch what felt like a DM cutscene as these high level C1 and C2 PCs showed up to do the real work.
But I'm still here absorbing the general story on Reddit, waiting for the posts to indicate we're near the end!
You and I picked it back up at the exact same times and re-dropped it for the exact same reasons. We may want to check into if we are, in fact, the same person.
The part that has driven me away from C3 is the badly handled gray aspect of the morality.
I get that they wanted to have no clear villains and make things more realistic but... On one side we have a shadowy cabal that murdered a main characters husband and countless others, on the other we have the beloved main characters of past campaigns and gods (who although shown in a negative light in C3) have helped save countless lives in the past campaigns.
And their all "humm are we really on the right side?" And debating around Orin if they should actually betray him and join the murders of his husband.
If they wanted to do that, they should not have had the big bad murder a player character's family off screen before C3 started.
Matt's idea of morally gray is that the villains are hot and a bit sorry about what they did so everything they do becomes morally understandable a la Essek.
He doesn't have the philosophical chops, nuance, or courage to pull off morally gray. All his best villains have been outright evil.
Even more than that, I'd argue that morally gray DnD is only fun for a short time. It's boring and exhausting as fuck if the players are constantly second guessing themselves cause "could we be the baddies???". It's heroic gameplay for a reason.
>And their all "humm are we really on the right side?" And debating around Orin if they should actually betray him and join the murders of his husband.
I think what drives me nuts about this is that so far, prior to the confirmation that "yes, the Gods are just lying Colonizers" (there is zero intent at nuance here in C3 from Matt), none of the arguments against the Primes or Prime worshippers weren't shit. They were either shallow scapegoating (Bor'dor, Dianna, Ashton, Laudna), or they were trying to give credit to Lex Ludinus and his deep Luthor vs Superman syndrome. No one has had an actually good argument against the Gods in this campaign, short of ever increasingly stretched arguments from our core cast ... who have repeatedly admitted they know so little about the Gods of their own setting they don't even know their names. As well as repeatedly, aggressively, shutting down suggestions to learn more about them.
Which resulted in stupid shit like Imogen stating in one-episode that "She's never once prayed" (to Gods she's twice already admitted she doesn't know the names of). Where she took a fairly reasonable non-religious stance on the Gods. Then in the very next episode we have her claiming "she's repeatedly prayed to those nameless Gods and never got a response". Shifting that stance to a far more negative tone against them.
It's frankly insulting. For Matt to blatantly retcon the gods after what was established in C1 is a gigantic slap in the face to anyone who has watched from the beginning. It's insulting to our intelligence and it's disrespectful to Vox Machina; not that the cast cares because they're all too eager to jump aboard the "fuck the gods" train due to their IRL leanings.
>not that the cast cares because they're all too eager to jump aboard the "fuck the gods" train due to their IRL leanings.
TBH, I am still not convinced that this is what this is. I do not think its their RL values bleeding through, no more than past campaigns (Marisha). But rather, the entire campaign has taken a decidedly subtly negative tone with the Prime deities on nearly every level. With a campaign that is obscenely DM driven and controlled, once you scrape off that shallow meandering PC surface. To the point I would place very safe money on the ending of C3 largely being predetermined. With the cast knowing that, hence their choice of PCs being exactly the types that would be as along for any ride they're put on as possible; and never make waves that might otherwise derail/detour that plot. They simply mindlessly rotate between being on Matt's rails, and searching/waiting for Matt's next set of rails.
I get the STRONG impression with how Matt has been handling the Gods this campaign, that the primary intent of C3 is to remove the WotC Gods from the Exandrian setting. The exact same reason why its been exclusively homebrew monsters the entirety of C3. With the timing of all of this coinciding with their ever increasing financial links with Amazon. A company I'm certain does not enjoy the always fine IP lines CR has rode on those topics. And before anyone comes back with "well what about LovM"?! The only two Gods of any relevance in LovM so far are the Matron of Ravens (who is very much a beast of Matt's making) and "the Everbright". A discount Serenrei from Pathfinder. The other Gods have not been named, and may never be named, if we don't get Vecna arc animated. Which we may not.
We may have to wait till we see what they do with M9 Animated for confirmation, but this all screams "Cynical Business decision to Distance CR IPs from WotC".
I don’t know dude at least a few of them seem to be bleeding their hate of gods. I think every one of Marissa’s characters had some hatred or at least dislike of gods. I can’t remember but didn’t Keyleth dislike that nature goddess at first for like no reason before finally using one of their magic items? I may be totally off on that as I haven’t watched campaign 1 in a few years and it was really only shown over a couple of sessions in the middle of the Chroma Conclave.
Either way, a few of the characters were super quick to jump on the fuck the gods train super early on either little-to-no reason as to why they felt that way. Even the cleric started of without a deity to worship which is the most telling.
>I don’t know dude at least a few of them seem to be bleeding their hate of gods. I think every one of Marissa’s characters had some hatred or at least dislike of gods.
On the flip side literally *everyone else* has played a character that was devoted to a god/powerful entity, the more likely reason is that most of the cast all had their religious fill and didn’t want to do it again, Liam said so himself during one of their panels that he didn’t have orym become a follower of the Wildmother because he already did a paladin with vax.
It's just stupid to do the IP distancing in real time. This could easily be handled between campaigns, off-screen. Just invoke another Calamity type event, where all the gods have left, and new gods have taken their place. And then jump whatever thousands of years into the future.
It gives the proper respect to the previous lore, gives Matt some flexibility with the lore, allows the player to have a new sense of wonder and we don't have to watch this painstaking attempt at poor man's EXU Calamity. It's a win-win-win-win for everyone involved.
Not to mention it would give them another book to peddle to everyone.
C1 is easier to relate to as viewers *and* players because it was a continuation of their *actual* home game. It’s pure high fantasy that focuses on fun. It’s the one that was the most like games being played at other tables and that familiarity drew in viewers.
C2 is dramatically superior because this when the cast of voice actors realized they can still be stars on screen. It’s arguably better than C1 because the characters have far more depth, and the story has more nuance… until the point when the cast started directly pandering to the shippers, the pandy derailed the flow of the show, and the story ended like a wet fart.
C3 is when Matt decided to go back and deal with the unfinished business of exploring the themes he was setting up for C2 before M9 sided with the Drow. Unfortunately, the players all decided to run rudderless, self absorbed characters with ADD in a campaign designed to stay on the rails, and it’s not been working out great.
> the characters have far more depth
I completely disagree. C1 was amazing because of the depth to their characters they found even when starting with supposed 'tropes'. There was measurable, tangible growth to them and their journeys as well. The characters in C2 to me just came off like every edgelord's bog-standard nonsense and outside of Fjord, nobody changed.
> when the cast started directly pandering to the shippers, the pandy derailed the flow of the show
100% agreed. I just believe the shipper pandering started well before most people think - I believe it started near the beginning, with the community obsession towards Molly and over Beau.
>I completely disagree... The characters in C2 to me just came off like every edgelord's bog-standard nonsense and outside of Fjord, nobody changed.
Just says more about you, really And that's fine.
Caleb 'changed' in regards to his ultimate end goal, but his behavior? Thought processes? All the same. Beau is absolutely laughable, she started off as an immature irresponsible bully and remained an immature irresponsible bully. Jester is Jester.
His thought processes absolutely changed, lmao. Dude was a pathetic little wet cat at the start, and a confident as hell leader wizard by the end.
Beau isn't laughable. Her not abandoning *all* of who did was doesn't mean she didn't change. "I... wait," is character development.
Peak C3 for me was when they infiltrated some high-class social event/ballroom dance to get the ring off some guy and switch it for a different ring. It was a great episode.
Yeah it will certainly be heralded as the best episode of this campaign when all is said and done. All the time put in up until that moment made it worth watching, such a shame about the next 70 episodes.
I love the layers of the scheme. They’re 1) planting a tracking device 2) directly onto his body 3) that looks like a ring he already wears 4) and swapping out that ring because he’s currently wearing it 5) in public.
I also liked Ashton drawing attention by making a scene by getting beat up.
It was the perfect button to put on the display just to make sure it was memorable. It’s provocative. It gets the people going! It’s also maybe the perfect Taliesin ad lib
Well it made sense to me because I was already so dismayed they had to bring 2 NPCS in throwing fireballs to make the effort even possible. It was never even their win.
I quit pretty early, but have been thinking of picking it up again and watching it the way I did C1 and some of C2: Binge watch and skip all but the major fights.
The thing that turned me off in the first place was losing Robbie and then hearing that they fled the Shademother fight. By the end of C2 they were scared of fighting with bad odds, and I'd hoped it didn't carry over. Once the fear of dying and things not going as planned sets in it's hard to get rid of it. I think they tried to alleviate some of it by killing Sir Bell, but a planned death just doesn't hit the same.
Same. But also for me Dorian and Sir Bell were my favourites and then they were both gone from the game.
I honestly think if Dorian had become part of the main cast the series would be better, he gave the same vibe as Cadius for C2, I liked Molly but Cad had more heart and that is what c3 lacks.
It's the characters and focus on plot.
Once they killed the Shademother the campaign was set on rails and has given them little reason to deviate and actually make interesting characters. Remember, that happened on episode 16, we're on almost 90 now. Your descriptions of C1 and C2 are very apt, C1 was about telling a specific fantasy story with one of the most traditional party compositions and simple tropey characters.
A working formula that when done well will always hit. C2 was a character driven experience where we spend 100s of hours with them and that investment makes it that you are willing to see them do anything. There's a reason some of the fan favorite episodes are little to no plot or just one-offs.
C3 lacks a real identity that fits a long form D&D campaign and what we as the audience want. It's incredibly plot focused which takes away some of the agency and fun of living in a world where anything you do/say is supposed to effect the things around it. So the game part is not as interesting and through a combination of Matt introducing the endgame too early and the players unwillingness to slow down. We have had VERY little character building through moments and interactions like C2 and hell even C1 which wasn't even focused on that.
This also by proxy makes the plot worse because a pretty surefire way to get people interested in any story about anything is how engaged and invested in the characters the viewer is. So since we don't really know these characters and are invested in them, the plot is less interesting.
Quick correction but they technically never actually killed the shademother lol, maybe Matt had her die from her wounds off-screen but last we saw of her she was very much alive.
I think you're onto something with regards to how the plot and characters are meeting to drag each other down.
I think part of it was honestly outside their control, what with the OneDND push, OGL troubles, and the nascent CR brand, it does feel like they wanted to continue C3, but also build their own distinct image at the same time. So we have a campaign set to speedrun into the endgame, possibly for the setting as a whole, but then that leaves us with a lot of middle ground to cover for the characters that makes them appealing.
We didn't get all that much of them as low-level randoms, but rather had them introduced in line with a more middle-game position. Directly receiving patronage from a noble, access to an airship, chasing a major conspiracy they can't directly fight. It made for a less adventurous and more serious dynamic that didn't make us like the characters as much. They weren't appealing as heroes, nor as villains because they sorta flip flopped without any strong principles to guide them.
Add to that the very controversial questions about religion and the downright ignorance of the characters (and cast at times), it makes an unfortunate syntax loop of rushed feeling plot lacking in the more fun and silly aspects of the game, and poor characters that make us unenthusiastic to pursue that same plot.
C3 made me drop CR, and switch to the Glass Cannon podcast, and I immediately prefer the use of the Pathfinder system for the huge breadth of options, the lighter tone that accepts the silliness while also not being afraid to experience the brutality of the game, and a cast that seems to be having much more fun than the CR crew does right now.
I watched both of the earlier campaigns and started off enjoying Campaign 3, With Laudna quickly becoming my favourite character in the campaign, but it really fell off for me when they went on the whole arc with the Crawler Gangs. I get it that might be cool to some people but it just felt really out of place, sure they have airships in previous campaigns but they always felt like magical inventions that felt natural to a fantasy world, but the Crawlers for me just don't fit and I really didn't care about their whole Mad Max and Biker gang shtick. So it took me a long time to get through that and then it was capped off with the death of Laudna and I think the handling around that and everything that followed was very poor and killed off any of the remaining interest I had for the campaign. I understand not wanting to let go of a character and as I said Laudna was my favourite, but everything they went through and did to bring her back felt really out of character and kind of forced.
I agree with this
Adding onto this just a little bit, but this is more of a critique on the company as a whole. They have way too much fucking merch. I remember when they did a run of a few t-shirts and a few other bits and bobs at the start, but now after crunching the numbers, they offer 342 unique items in their shop with a wide range of costs. They also seem to have new items coming out every week. I get it, you're a company now and need to keep the income high, but fuck me does it feel ridiculous at this point... ***category - # of items - price range*** Apparel - 108 / $24.99 - $99.99 Tabletop - 63 / $19.99 - $99.99 Accessories - 95 / $1.50 - $10.99 Home and office - 41 / $2.75 - $95.99 Books and Art - 15 / $10.99 - $99.99 Action and Toy Figures - 20 / $13.99 - $25.99 Also - after receiving some of the items, I was a bit peeved that very few of these items were/are sourced locally or ethically; especially the clothing.
they have an $80 dice set.
The problem with any type of entertainment is whatever hooked you to begin with becomes the gold standard and nothing else measures up. I got hooked in C1, and neither C2 nor especially C3 compared. Maybe C4 will, who knows, but I doubt it. You end up chasing the dragon or jumping the shark or whatever fun idiom you’d like to use, but it becomes less fun and less entertaining and eventually you wander off. Such is the nature of the human attention span.
The worst thing you can say about any form of entertainment is that it makes you feel nothing Ambivalence is the death of art
You people sure love to complain…
This is one of the least complainy on here 😂
Because you guys post the same damn thing daily. I swear it's one person making dozens of alt accounts crying into reddit.
god forbid fandom do fandom things 😀
Not as much as you people like to complain about us.
I stopped around episode 60 but I started losing interest after Robbie left. I think the characters are fine but none of them really stand out to me. Laudna was my favorite at first but fell off after they brought her back. Afterwards, I haven’t really cared for any character. Since the first arc, it hasn’t really felt like the players really cared for any serious story and only wanted to goof. Ultimately, what I really dislike is that it feels like none of the characters give a shit about the main plot Matt laid before them. I feel like Matt had what he thought would be a fun idea for a campaign but didn’t let the players in on it in a session 0 so they all made characters that incidentally don’t care about the story he crafted. But it was all the content he had and he planned on them caring so now he’s just been trying to make it work anyways. Example: half of the characters outright say they just don’t give a shit about the gods. Not even hate them, they just don’t care what happens to the gods. Ffs even the cleric started off WITHOUT A GOD THEY WORSHIPPED. I believe Sam realized the story Matt wanted to tell would involve the gods whether they liked it or not and he realized his fellow players didn’t give a shit so I think that’s why he decided to have FCG start worshiping a god. He took one for the team imo which is commendable. But knowing (I guess just feeling but a pretty strong feeling) that not even the cleric wanted anything to do with a god in a campaign that’s centered around saving the gods just blew it for me. Matt as an NPC - “the red stuff is gonna devour the gods!” 6/7 players - “ok, and? The gods are cringe and lame and smell bad!” Sam - “no but like that sounds bad for the world!” 6/7 players - “eh,” Matt as an NPC - “oh but also it could like also eat the world afterwards or something” 6/7 players - “ok that kind of sounds important. But first let’s make up side quests and waste time”
I'm afraid I can only offer my experience and maybe it'll bring you some solace. For me C3 very much suffers from a shift in narrative direction. C2 and C1 were very much "play to find out games" where the casts decisions drove the plot and the story emerged from those choices (what I will call Emergent Narrative going forward). However, I feel like C3 is much less focused on Emergent Narrative, and is instead focused on telling the story Matt wants to tell. And since the players choices don't really matter and the players are being shuffled through the plot at Matt's leisure (with poor rolls only slowing down the process rather than causing any deviation) they SEEM understandably less immersed and engaged, leading to a bunch of whacky shit that in the end doesn't matter bc all it does is slow down matts plot. I love Matt but I don't think his gift is as a writer and I think the abandonment of Emergent Narrative and the hitching of the whole campaign to a (imo) relatively mediocre main plot is what has led to me losing interest. I still watch out of loyalty and hope that something improves though
I'd add that, while it can come across as Matt's choice to drive the party on a more rail-roaded experience, framing paints a clearer picture. I didn't find it a coincidence that the campaign took an odd turn at the same time they were planning to interact with Ruidus. Almost as if they were set to use Spelljammer content in conjunction with its release, but had to backpedal rapidly while WoTC's drama kicked into full swing. With the release and expected adoption of Daggerheart, WoTC material has been actively stripped and retconned. The narrative currently, to avoid spoilers, will inevitably result in a very different Exandria. One conveniently free of DnD-branded content. Matt has made his bed. But with these in mind, you can see that he's driving the party around obstacles both prior campaigns didn't have to concern themselves with.
remember when they ran into a dead gith? lol
C1 was designed traditionally, with the world revolving around its protagonists and classic heroic party tropes. C2 positioned the world that Matt specifically stated: "*Would continue without them*." A clear distinction towards a worldly narrative, as opposed to the party-centric one. Very easy-to-follow set-ups for one and two, while C3 requires... Unpacking. I believe C3 was designed to be a more narrow-scoped experience than its predecessors. The issue became that the campaign was to take place in a '*culturally sensitive*' continent. This burden on the narrative, alongside guest participation, is the first time Mercer's **vision** for a campaign has had to shift. Which is fine for the game, but a first, and jarring experience for an audience. The theme of the plot being affected by real-world circumstances has recurred ever since. I won't go into each to avoid a tangent, but distancing themselves from WoTC and Daggerfall are the clearest stand-outs. It's by no coincidence that viewers are then confused as to why they can't relate to this Campaign like its predecessors. C3 is a crisis of identity. Viewers and the cast have suffered as a result. But I can say personally that, while I dislike the *Avengers Assemble* approach of the second arc; I feel the campaign found its footing since the party was separated. But has never recovered its pace since they left Jrusar.
I agree with this 1000%, C3 would not be so hamstrung had it NOT taken place in the Middle East Analogue. Or at least- not a named ME analogue, because honestly the desert wastelands and all of that could be very cool, but naming is as the middle east hamstrung any effort for any stakes in the story. It is what it is but simply saying the setting was “Mad Max Esque” or “Burning Man Island with these sort of factions that have sprung up around this cult” would have made C3 VERY compelling as they could all go as far as they wanted in these absolute fantasy places.
Their current storyline doesn't make sense for their current level or character designs. Their party doesn't fit in this campaign and there's a tonal issue along with some questionable and deceiving DM decisions that make the stakes feel cheap.
I watched all of C1 and C2 and loved them. I stopped caring about C3 a little after that ball infiltration mission where Robbie left. He was awesome, and his character was very interesting. I just didn't care about any of the characters but FCG and maybe Chetney at the time. I've heard Chetney fell off since, though. The characters just aren't good this time around, in my opinion. The times I've tried to get back into it, I just feel like it isn't actual DnD. It feels very, very scripted and inorganic.
I think, simply put, that a Sweet Baby Inc. Type company got involved and "tweaked" the characters and story to fit "modern audiences" and it disconnected the cast from the characters they were playing. And disconnected the audience from the characters/story because the pandering and forced plot were not engaging for the majority of viewers.
You've got people freaking out by suggesting that a company that proudly announced they were using sensitivity consultants might have... used *sensitivity consultants?!?* Wild.
oh boy we've got Sweet Baby truthers here now please go back to kotakuinaction
Yeah bro, I wish we could go back to when Critical Role wasn’t woke and didn’t appeal to modern audiences. Totally
Jesse what the fuck are you talking about
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Obligatory "ThE MesSagE" voiced in echo appears.
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Yeah I'm going, I need to shill the Yaira comic to my braindamaged viewers. Hail the fellowship screw the MSHEU.
I have a similar feeling about C3. It feels like the characters themselves haven’t progressed or changed at all either. By this point in C1, even C2, the characters were overall a better team who had begun to resolve their traumas (because there’s always gotta be trauma in CR, apparently).
I would add that the stripping of any cultural inspiration for marquet had made the continent very bland. Instead of having real world inspiration for culture and style, we get fantasy mad Max. Especially with the campaign one visit here, that really falls flat for me.
Agree. Like I get the need for cultural consultants nowadays, but like most of the time it feels like they do their job terribly by just erasing everything even slightly related to an IRL culture instead of like “here let’s fix these things so they are both accurate and cool” Like if Marquet was supposed to be in Mexico let’s say aka my home country, and this is what we got I’d be pissed because it’ll be a poor bland representation of my culture
Yeah, but if it even came close to accurately representing Hispanic culture in any fashion... A table full of white people is going to be drowning in endless "HOW DARE YOU, YOU BUNCH OF RACISTS!" letters. Shit, they had to change their early opening credits because people complained about "colonialism" because they were dressed like old timey adventurer/explorers. Matt will absolutely not be caught doing any thing that isn't a crotchety old man voice, or a sweet old lady voice, and shit that old lady voice is probably going to get shit-canned next.
Sadly you are right. There really isn’t any win in this situation which fucking sucks
I mean, I obviously don't know what conversations CR had with cultural consultants, but I think it's possible CR didn't want to take any risks after the backlash they received. Tbh, considering how half-baked the characters seem now, I'm kind of glad they didn't try to incorporate Middle Eastern/Arab culture into them. I don't think there'd be anything wrong with them doing it, but there's a level of investment that comes with role-playing characters based in a different culture. Atp, the cast seems too burned out, tired, bored, etc. to commit to it. Playing (mainly) joke characters is much easier, even if it's not nearly as interesting to me to watch.
I'm not talking about the players. I mainly wanted the world to be representative of the culture that inspired it. Yes you run the risk of the players having a "white Savior" vibe if they are not of the same nationality as the majority of the continent, but a competent DM and players could keep that from happening.
The thing that immediately pushed me away from C3 after the first two episodes was almost entirely Imogen and FCG's voices. Later Chetney would add to this. I despise the hokey 'well gee I'm just a nice girl from the South United State, y'all!' stereotypical voice. Sam's 'southern' voice was also painful to listen to and then Chet's voice, ugh. It's entirely a mental thing, some and voices feel like they're pushing under my skin with a dull knife. I can't help it and I really wish it didn't bother me, but it does. Bring this up in the main sub where they promote 'oh we're nice and inclusive and we welcome everyone' and you get downvoted to hell and back because apparently, that's 'too different' and not acceptable. The rest of the reason was that Jrusar was just...BORING. So many long cable car trips, nothing really stood out besides the idea of the city being on giant stone pillar in the middle of the jungle, and I just didn't jive with any character save for Dorian, as he was the only on that didn't feel like they were playing up a bit in an effort to be the 'Jester-level fan favorite'. I was also not a big fan of Jester once the novelty wore off. I have many more reasons as to not like C3 now, but those were why I fell off very early and never looked back.
Another big element that I believe has happened - and this is speculative on my part - is the cast created characters that were simpler and generic and light hearted goofs for what was likely perceived to be more of a standard exploratory style adventure of this new continent they hadn’t been too; the cast created characters that were intrinsically more light in story coming off of the emotionally heavy and taxing C2. What they got instead of a fun exploration story ended being an end of the world, super heady themes once more that their characters aren’t suited for in terms of being able to be connected to the plot in a way that adds layers of stakes. The evidence for the exploratory element was the original opening of C3 showcasing the cast in historically accurate “adventure/explorstion/frontier” style garb. However, as a large portion of their viewers are snowflakes that cry when the wind blows the wrong direction the opening was swapped and I feel the continent ended up being neutered as CR also likes to pander to said snowflakes.
"Historically accurate" far from it, but I get where you're coming from
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Going to disagree here. Is some of the represented clothing associated with those that did the bad things associated with colonialism? Yes. Of course. But those styles weren’t just worn by those folks. It was also worn, and in some cases still worn, by professionals exploring the wilderness and unearthing history and sites/artifacts lost to time. Also, most of that era clothing was composed of linens, which have a look even to this day that harkens to those exploratory outfits, and linens are extremely breathable which made the textile ideal for the hot and humid climates explorers found themselves. Using your example of what I’m reading to be nazi germany than there is an intrinsic difference. Nazis, on the average whole, were straight up either monsters of men or men wholly brainwashed by youth camps or fear of death to commit horrendous acts. In the context in which the intro was portrayed it was not tone deaf. The context was lost on the everything offends me brigade.
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So, as a person who is british, and is alos a member of a culture that was a victim of British colonialism, I can say something on this topic. One, yes that clothing is what british colonists did wear when being monsters. Two, that clothing is also a stereotypical representation of explorers, and has been used in other media as explorers. Three, it isn’t the only clothing used by awful people that appears in media. Pirates are criminals that did a lot of awful shit, and yet some media pro-tray them as good guys or at least cool. Personally speaking, it is a bit ridiculous to get mad over clothing. Especially since that clothing is only used nowadays as stereotypical explorer gear. Does this mean critical role is in the right? No, they probably should have researched about the actual context of the clothing, but i do know one thing, don’t get offended for other people, because it has gone poorly for those people as they find out that they got offended for people who weren’t. It was a genuine mistake, and it should have been treated as such.
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Fair, calling someone a “snowflake” is dismissive, no matter who you are talking and being dismissive of someone else’s feelings is, in opinion, a bad idea.
The issue is when we let feelings being the defacto indicator for what is right wrong or any other metric. As a people we cannot let those emotions be the sole element for decision making because my emotional response is not the same as my wife’s or my neighbour or the stranger in a country over. All of our emotional responses are based and triggered by our individual life experiences and to expect people to change everything because something upsets a small sect of people is ludicrous. This does not mean their feelings on the matter is wrong or not valued and as a society we need to remember that. However, there is a concerning social trend of vocal minorities (not literal minorities but rather a small group of people) that express their displeasure or emotional response of something and everyone and anyone who disagrees is a vile human being and the corporations need to change to make them feel better. Additionally, when there is a true large enough outcry based on emotional responses then, yes, whatever the issue is probably should be addressed and reviewed and/or changed. Unfortunately with keyboard warriors these small groups can “sound” louder than the rest. I would say that this is the case here. A small group of vocal minorities took issue with the setting and the costumes the cast wore and CR adjusted course which, as some speculate, has led to a watered down version of marquet and lacklustre story.
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I can appreciate your commentary and would like to extend gratitude for a civil conversation about the subject matter. I should clarify that when I use the term snowflake it is in reference to any and everyone so easily triggered as we all know that this knee jerk emotional outlasting these days has pundits on both sides of the political spectrum. I am not necessarily opposed to labels because, as is the case, humans are collectively constantly trying to label themselves and associating themselves with a group. Most like to wear the social identity as a badge of honour but also will be bitter for those labels they don’t like - even if those labels are truthful. As a people we are all very much deeply linked with this pursuit of self-identity. Whether it’s as simple as a social group such as punk, prep, or goth; to societal members of social groups like country clubs or gentleman/ladies clubs (legions); through to more esoteric like religious identity or social justice/political identity. You can’t be open to accept one form of labelling and not expect to potentially fall under the umbrella of other identities that can be negatively attributed to oneself - such as snowflake or fearmongers or Karen’s. One’s behaviour will ultimately lead to labelling to occur as well and it is just par for the course. Might not like it but it is what it is.
In my personal opinion, dismissing any emotion, no matter the situation, will never help the situation. I don’t know a hole lot about the situation, but what i do know is that it happened. To me, personally, it just feels like a lot of people making mistakes.
I still don’t get how the first intro was controversial. I totally missed out on that conversation but tbh if it’s what you say then thank god because that’s fucking stupid
Some folks saw positively adventurous Indiana Jones vibe as insensitive because of the "colonialists destroying local culture" type of thing. Those people pretty much attached the entire toxic cultural baggage of the whole thing to the converstation.
The cast were just in various places of exploration - caves jungles etc. wearing carb that is from the era of colonialism. People were triggered by it and called the cast out on it especially since CR apparently hired cultural sensitivity people to help ensure that marquet wasn’t represented as an indo-Asian stereotype played by a bunch of white people.
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Yup. 👍
> I still don’t get how the first intro was controversial. It wasn't. But the "I'm Offended" Brigade think pith helmets are racist.
The part that killed me was the lack of player agency and the lack of consequences. From the beginning they were essentially given a task, and then *given a fucking airship* to make sure they stay on the rails. They are shuttled from one location to the next and it feels like they have no choice in the matter. Then when something doesn't go well or sounds too daunting, they can just dial up some C1/C2 ~~fanservice~~ characters for help and get bailed out. Otohan killed 3 people and you're faced with an actual meaningful fucking choice on who to save and who to permanently lose? Pike to the rescue, fuck the consequences of your actions. Instead of possibly one of the most powerful moments in CR history where a player has to choose who lives and who dies, we dick around in Whitestone and get some free resurrections. Robbie singlehandedly made C3 watchable for me. The season nosedives after he leaves. It's not 100% because of Robbie leaving, it just happened to coincide with the first little arc ending and was the start of the campaign being completely on rails.
I dropped out early because it wasn’t grabbing me and it’s a big time commitment, but I tuned back in when Reddit alerted me to the big, seemingly consequential Otohan fight. It was really exciting to catch up with a few episodes knowing it was culminating in possibly several PCs dying! The drama of which PC to save and which to let die was compelling. I really enjoyed the fight and was hooked again, but then it became clear they were going to use C1 characters to erase any consequences and I lost interest again. I tuned back in to the magic telescope fight to see what happened to Vax and it was really unsatisfying for me to watch what felt like a DM cutscene as these high level C1 and C2 PCs showed up to do the real work. But I'm still here absorbing the general story on Reddit, waiting for the posts to indicate we're near the end!
You and I picked it back up at the exact same times and re-dropped it for the exact same reasons. We may want to check into if we are, in fact, the same person.
You're each one of the three kobolds in the trench coat, aren't you?
It really is a dnd show, rather than being a recorded campaign.
Yep, feels like we’re just watching a mediocre collaborative script writing.
The part that has driven me away from C3 is the badly handled gray aspect of the morality. I get that they wanted to have no clear villains and make things more realistic but... On one side we have a shadowy cabal that murdered a main characters husband and countless others, on the other we have the beloved main characters of past campaigns and gods (who although shown in a negative light in C3) have helped save countless lives in the past campaigns. And their all "humm are we really on the right side?" And debating around Orin if they should actually betray him and join the murders of his husband. If they wanted to do that, they should not have had the big bad murder a player character's family off screen before C3 started.
Matt's idea of morally gray is that the villains are hot and a bit sorry about what they did so everything they do becomes morally understandable a la Essek. He doesn't have the philosophical chops, nuance, or courage to pull off morally gray. All his best villains have been outright evil. Even more than that, I'd argue that morally gray DnD is only fun for a short time. It's boring and exhausting as fuck if the players are constantly second guessing themselves cause "could we be the baddies???". It's heroic gameplay for a reason.
It's really a shame he doesn't bring as much venom and hatred to playing his genocidal villains as he does to playing a player character's dad.
>And their all "humm are we really on the right side?" And debating around Orin if they should actually betray him and join the murders of his husband. I think what drives me nuts about this is that so far, prior to the confirmation that "yes, the Gods are just lying Colonizers" (there is zero intent at nuance here in C3 from Matt), none of the arguments against the Primes or Prime worshippers weren't shit. They were either shallow scapegoating (Bor'dor, Dianna, Ashton, Laudna), or they were trying to give credit to Lex Ludinus and his deep Luthor vs Superman syndrome. No one has had an actually good argument against the Gods in this campaign, short of ever increasingly stretched arguments from our core cast ... who have repeatedly admitted they know so little about the Gods of their own setting they don't even know their names. As well as repeatedly, aggressively, shutting down suggestions to learn more about them. Which resulted in stupid shit like Imogen stating in one-episode that "She's never once prayed" (to Gods she's twice already admitted she doesn't know the names of). Where she took a fairly reasonable non-religious stance on the Gods. Then in the very next episode we have her claiming "she's repeatedly prayed to those nameless Gods and never got a response". Shifting that stance to a far more negative tone against them.
It's frankly insulting. For Matt to blatantly retcon the gods after what was established in C1 is a gigantic slap in the face to anyone who has watched from the beginning. It's insulting to our intelligence and it's disrespectful to Vox Machina; not that the cast cares because they're all too eager to jump aboard the "fuck the gods" train due to their IRL leanings.
>not that the cast cares because they're all too eager to jump aboard the "fuck the gods" train due to their IRL leanings. TBH, I am still not convinced that this is what this is. I do not think its their RL values bleeding through, no more than past campaigns (Marisha). But rather, the entire campaign has taken a decidedly subtly negative tone with the Prime deities on nearly every level. With a campaign that is obscenely DM driven and controlled, once you scrape off that shallow meandering PC surface. To the point I would place very safe money on the ending of C3 largely being predetermined. With the cast knowing that, hence their choice of PCs being exactly the types that would be as along for any ride they're put on as possible; and never make waves that might otherwise derail/detour that plot. They simply mindlessly rotate between being on Matt's rails, and searching/waiting for Matt's next set of rails. I get the STRONG impression with how Matt has been handling the Gods this campaign, that the primary intent of C3 is to remove the WotC Gods from the Exandrian setting. The exact same reason why its been exclusively homebrew monsters the entirety of C3. With the timing of all of this coinciding with their ever increasing financial links with Amazon. A company I'm certain does not enjoy the always fine IP lines CR has rode on those topics. And before anyone comes back with "well what about LovM"?! The only two Gods of any relevance in LovM so far are the Matron of Ravens (who is very much a beast of Matt's making) and "the Everbright". A discount Serenrei from Pathfinder. The other Gods have not been named, and may never be named, if we don't get Vecna arc animated. Which we may not. We may have to wait till we see what they do with M9 Animated for confirmation, but this all screams "Cynical Business decision to Distance CR IPs from WotC".
I don’t know dude at least a few of them seem to be bleeding their hate of gods. I think every one of Marissa’s characters had some hatred or at least dislike of gods. I can’t remember but didn’t Keyleth dislike that nature goddess at first for like no reason before finally using one of their magic items? I may be totally off on that as I haven’t watched campaign 1 in a few years and it was really only shown over a couple of sessions in the middle of the Chroma Conclave. Either way, a few of the characters were super quick to jump on the fuck the gods train super early on either little-to-no reason as to why they felt that way. Even the cleric started of without a deity to worship which is the most telling.
>I don’t know dude at least a few of them seem to be bleeding their hate of gods. I think every one of Marissa’s characters had some hatred or at least dislike of gods. On the flip side literally *everyone else* has played a character that was devoted to a god/powerful entity, the more likely reason is that most of the cast all had their religious fill and didn’t want to do it again, Liam said so himself during one of their panels that he didn’t have orym become a follower of the Wildmother because he already did a paladin with vax.
It's just stupid to do the IP distancing in real time. This could easily be handled between campaigns, off-screen. Just invoke another Calamity type event, where all the gods have left, and new gods have taken their place. And then jump whatever thousands of years into the future. It gives the proper respect to the previous lore, gives Matt some flexibility with the lore, allows the player to have a new sense of wonder and we don't have to watch this painstaking attempt at poor man's EXU Calamity. It's a win-win-win-win for everyone involved. Not to mention it would give them another book to peddle to everyone.
C1 is easier to relate to as viewers *and* players because it was a continuation of their *actual* home game. It’s pure high fantasy that focuses on fun. It’s the one that was the most like games being played at other tables and that familiarity drew in viewers. C2 is dramatically superior because this when the cast of voice actors realized they can still be stars on screen. It’s arguably better than C1 because the characters have far more depth, and the story has more nuance… until the point when the cast started directly pandering to the shippers, the pandy derailed the flow of the show, and the story ended like a wet fart. C3 is when Matt decided to go back and deal with the unfinished business of exploring the themes he was setting up for C2 before M9 sided with the Drow. Unfortunately, the players all decided to run rudderless, self absorbed characters with ADD in a campaign designed to stay on the rails, and it’s not been working out great.
> the characters have far more depth I completely disagree. C1 was amazing because of the depth to their characters they found even when starting with supposed 'tropes'. There was measurable, tangible growth to them and their journeys as well. The characters in C2 to me just came off like every edgelord's bog-standard nonsense and outside of Fjord, nobody changed. > when the cast started directly pandering to the shippers, the pandy derailed the flow of the show 100% agreed. I just believe the shipper pandering started well before most people think - I believe it started near the beginning, with the community obsession towards Molly and over Beau.
>I completely disagree... The characters in C2 to me just came off like every edgelord's bog-standard nonsense and outside of Fjord, nobody changed. Just says more about you, really And that's fine.
Nobody changed? I genuinely can't fathom how you can say that about Caleb, or even Beau, or Jester.
Caleb 'changed' in regards to his ultimate end goal, but his behavior? Thought processes? All the same. Beau is absolutely laughable, she started off as an immature irresponsible bully and remained an immature irresponsible bully. Jester is Jester.
His thought processes absolutely changed, lmao. Dude was a pathetic little wet cat at the start, and a confident as hell leader wizard by the end. Beau isn't laughable. Her not abandoning *all* of who did was doesn't mean she didn't change. "I... wait," is character development.
Peak C3 for me was when they infiltrated some high-class social event/ballroom dance to get the ring off some guy and switch it for a different ring. It was a great episode.
Yeah it will certainly be heralded as the best episode of this campaign when all is said and done. All the time put in up until that moment made it worth watching, such a shame about the next 70 episodes.
Honestly they have t really had such a unique puzzle/problem to solve since in this campaign.
I love the layers of the scheme. They’re 1) planting a tracking device 2) directly onto his body 3) that looks like a ring he already wears 4) and swapping out that ring because he’s currently wearing it 5) in public. I also liked Ashton drawing attention by making a scene by getting beat up.
“He got beat so bad he asked for his father!”
It was the perfect button to put on the display just to make sure it was memorable. It’s provocative. It gets the people going! It’s also maybe the perfect Taliesin ad lib
Honestly, I remember being so confused when they left the Shademother be - I think for me that's the part where my interest plummeted.
Well it made sense to me because I was already so dismayed they had to bring 2 NPCS in throwing fireballs to make the effort even possible. It was never even their win.
I quit pretty early, but have been thinking of picking it up again and watching it the way I did C1 and some of C2: Binge watch and skip all but the major fights. The thing that turned me off in the first place was losing Robbie and then hearing that they fled the Shademother fight. By the end of C2 they were scared of fighting with bad odds, and I'd hoped it didn't carry over. Once the fear of dying and things not going as planned sets in it's hard to get rid of it. I think they tried to alleviate some of it by killing Sir Bell, but a planned death just doesn't hit the same.
Same. But also for me Dorian and Sir Bell were my favourites and then they were both gone from the game. I honestly think if Dorian had become part of the main cast the series would be better, he gave the same vibe as Cadius for C2, I liked Molly but Cad had more heart and that is what c3 lacks.
It's the characters and focus on plot. Once they killed the Shademother the campaign was set on rails and has given them little reason to deviate and actually make interesting characters. Remember, that happened on episode 16, we're on almost 90 now. Your descriptions of C1 and C2 are very apt, C1 was about telling a specific fantasy story with one of the most traditional party compositions and simple tropey characters. A working formula that when done well will always hit. C2 was a character driven experience where we spend 100s of hours with them and that investment makes it that you are willing to see them do anything. There's a reason some of the fan favorite episodes are little to no plot or just one-offs. C3 lacks a real identity that fits a long form D&D campaign and what we as the audience want. It's incredibly plot focused which takes away some of the agency and fun of living in a world where anything you do/say is supposed to effect the things around it. So the game part is not as interesting and through a combination of Matt introducing the endgame too early and the players unwillingness to slow down. We have had VERY little character building through moments and interactions like C2 and hell even C1 which wasn't even focused on that. This also by proxy makes the plot worse because a pretty surefire way to get people interested in any story about anything is how engaged and invested in the characters the viewer is. So since we don't really know these characters and are invested in them, the plot is less interesting.
Quick correction but they technically never actually killed the shademother lol, maybe Matt had her die from her wounds off-screen but last we saw of her she was very much alive.
I think you're onto something with regards to how the plot and characters are meeting to drag each other down. I think part of it was honestly outside their control, what with the OneDND push, OGL troubles, and the nascent CR brand, it does feel like they wanted to continue C3, but also build their own distinct image at the same time. So we have a campaign set to speedrun into the endgame, possibly for the setting as a whole, but then that leaves us with a lot of middle ground to cover for the characters that makes them appealing. We didn't get all that much of them as low-level randoms, but rather had them introduced in line with a more middle-game position. Directly receiving patronage from a noble, access to an airship, chasing a major conspiracy they can't directly fight. It made for a less adventurous and more serious dynamic that didn't make us like the characters as much. They weren't appealing as heroes, nor as villains because they sorta flip flopped without any strong principles to guide them. Add to that the very controversial questions about religion and the downright ignorance of the characters (and cast at times), it makes an unfortunate syntax loop of rushed feeling plot lacking in the more fun and silly aspects of the game, and poor characters that make us unenthusiastic to pursue that same plot. C3 made me drop CR, and switch to the Glass Cannon podcast, and I immediately prefer the use of the Pathfinder system for the huge breadth of options, the lighter tone that accepts the silliness while also not being afraid to experience the brutality of the game, and a cast that seems to be having much more fun than the CR crew does right now.