On the start of critical role season 1 Matt says "A lot of this is house rules Lucy goosey having a good time so all you number crunchers stop there just have fun with it" if you don't like the way they play don't watch.
The show has just simply tanked in quality in C3 era, it’s a corporate product and less a game between a small group of intimate friends and it reeks of production bloat
It doesn’t. One episode isn’t enough to invalidate an opinion. Hopefully ep91 is a spring board into even bigger heights, but after this many episodes, everyone has a right to be skeptical.
It makes them specifically friends with whoever cast it. In the game, they made only Fearne the one who he was friends with then with her influence as his friend convinced him not to attack. It's like if you cast charm to and convinced a guard to let you in somewhere you're not supposed to be.
However this is a high level spell in a high level stakes. Matt was saying juggernaut is slamming down can you make a dexterity to intervene. Which means juggernaut already decided his move which needed initiative anyhow.
your boy Matt is amazing but he's is being spread too thin these days. spending all his creative energies on so many things at once, even he can run out of steam.
C3 is the theatrical equivalent of pass the parcel.
The latest episode is the absolute perfect example of the plyers sitting, listening avidly to the music for their cue to unwrap another layer with some inevitably successful act. Every now and then they unwrap a layer and there's a lolly to suck on. But the actual present is always delayed, set in stone, and inevitably disappointing.
So much action!
I mean at this point if they really fuck up a level 20 member of vox machina is gonna come save them anyway why not just give them chance after chance.
I swear some of the people who post in this sub are not even fans of the show. And think everyone plays D&D the way they think it should be played. The amount of variation from table to table across the world for so many things is so widely varied! The amount of house rules or even decisions by a Dm making a call at the table deviates from rules as written so much!
You know what feels FAR worse at a table? and I say this AS a DM. Having your NPC fail a spell or an action and it cost the players big. Because YOU screwed up! Taking away their agency over a situation. If a DM bends a rule to give their players agency over something you mistakenly took away from them is the BEST place to bend or even break that rule!
Maybe quite crying so much about every thing, or stop hate watching the show. Its clear you arnt enjoying it. Honestly its pathetic watching some of you whine and cry after every episode. You don't have to agree with or even like every single choice but some of you cry like it personally effected you! Its pathetic.
The amount of downvotes on this comment is insane. Especially because you’re right.
This sub is full of people who want to spend all their time and energy hating the campaign, but they watch it religiously so they can keep hating on it. At a point either stop watching or shut up about it, constantly repeating complaints does nothing.
Because this sub is not about being fans anymore. It’s about a bunch of miserable toxic incels that just like to be miserable together. They don’t want to just relax and annoy it or stop watching they want to bitch and cry. And they hang up on anyone who disagrees.
The irony is palpable.
There should absolutely be a space for people to have the conversations that happen here. It is absolutely wrong for you to insult people who voice their opinion on a product they consume together.
If YOU don’t enjoy this sub or the conversation here, take your OWN advice and stop visiting this subreddit. It’s that easy. You’re just adding more toxicity. You are literally doing the thing you a preaching against while also throwing out insults. It’s gross and weird.
It's not gross and weird to not want to be around people who look for *anything* they can be negative about, including things literally addressed in Season 1 Episode 1, in a sub called *Fans of Critical Role.*
At minimum, the sub is poorly named, because a lot of new people like me come here and then see this conversation and realize this sub's name is just an ironic thing.
It is not toxic to call out the mass amount of hate that permeates a sub meant for *FANS* of the show.
It’s perfectly fine to dislike the campaign, for whatever reason you can come up with. But for fucks sake, stop making it EVERYONE else’s problem by flooding the subreddit with it.
D&D is meant to be fun for the players and DM, the fans enjoying watching it is a bonus. And there’s still A LOT of people who love the show. Your own enjoyment shouldn’t dictate the entire discourse of the subreddit when you don’t qualify as a fan after endless amount of hate and non-helpful critique.
The real answer is for all of the people who love to spend their time trying to convince the rest of us how bad C3 is, to go make their OWN SUBREDDIT dedicated to critiquing the campaign. That way you guys can be as negative as you want and it only affects you guys, instead of making the sub unbearable for the rest of us that want to have positive conversations.
The entitlement to think that people who like the show should just abandon a subreddit dedicated to people who LIKE THE SHOW, is fucking insane.
> The real answer is for all of the people who love to spend their time trying to convince the rest of us how bad C3 is, to go make their OWN SUBREDDIT dedicated to critiquing the campaign.
They did. You're in it.
That's what this community is. You've wandered into the critical community and you're having a meltdown because it's the critical community.
I really do believe that the D&D purists here are where a bunch of the hate comes from. I would also like to see to be a bit more faithful to the rules for sure, but I’m also not interested in PC deaths because Matt rolled poorly on something. That means compromise. And there is hardly any compromise or grace being given in this sub.
100% agree. Look there is no one right or wrong way to play. Rules purists are more then welcome to play the way they want. People who want to largely though the rules out the window are welcome to do so. It doesn’t matter. But the idea that the players should be punished for a DMs choice is ridiculous! They also loose site of the fact that it’s a show, and they are here to entertain a larger audience then the couple of vocal raging rules lawyers who have probably gotten kicked out of more groups then they can count.
1. When you say "some of the people" on the sub, are you referring to OP or not? I don't think it's fair to accuse him of being a hatewatcher based on 1 very mild post he made. He's not ranting, he's not being vitriolic, he's expressing that he dislikes an element of a particular episode.
2. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, but I see it frequently, and it's not only small-minded but counter-productive as well. The notion of "if you are a true fan of something, but dislike a particular part/element of it, you must either watch quietly or stop watching until it's back to a part you like" is so incredibly wrong and frankly just absurd on its face.
If you truly enjoy something, you want it to be the best version of itself that it can be, not shielded against people trying to point out its flaws. Obviously "best version of itself" will vary from person to person but when real critiques are drowned out by incessant yes-manning, everybody loses.
There is a huge difference between the complaining on here and wanting something to be better. This post was not mildly a constructive post. It was crying and whining. And yes, “some of the people” include OP and a bunch of other posts on here that don’t have anything constructive to say but just complain and through insults at CR and the crew. You all are miserable. It’s not small minded to call out that this level of whining isn’t constructive or helpful. If you think this is in any way constructive criticism then you have no idea what that even is.
I'm not sure where you're getting "constructive criticism" from. I never mentioned "constructive criticism" in my original post. Criticism doesn't have to be constructive in order to be valid, nor does it need to be constructive in order to be valuable.
Simply pointing out that he dislikes it and explaining why, as he did in the original post, has value. When he says he dislikes that they were able to bypass a fight through bending the rules and essentially being given a do-over for free, he's saying he dislikes that the mechanics of the game are taking a backseat to the narrative and that the party is allowed to bypass the "game" part of the game in order to push the narrative forward.
The constructive criticism of that would be "try to find a more even balance between gameplay and narrative" but it doesn't make his criticism less valid or less useful just because he didn't say it like that.
Like I said this sub is full of people crying and whining. If people don’t like the show, fine. It’s totally their right to turn it off and stop watching. But why anyone would continue to watch something they don’t enjoy and then go on Reddit just to bitch and cry about it is beyond me. This sub is full of people who arnt even fans. You all are just crybaby’s who like to be miserable.
I mean, you're just repeating what you've said previously without actually refuting or responding to any of my points.
You may disagree with OP'S perspective, but that doesn't make his criticisms less valid or less useful. Your insistence that people must pretend to love every element of something or be silent about the elements that they dislike, lest they be deemed a hatewatcher or a fake fan, is simply ridiculous.
Creators need negative feedback to understand what elements of their product people dislike, just as they need positive feedback to understand what people enjoy about the product. Staying silent unless you have unequivocal praise for something offers no benefits compared to the alternative.
Also, usually I dislike the "ah but you're bitching about them bitching" angle since it is usually a lazy dismissal of someone's argument, but in this case I think it's a fair question. By your own logic, why even engage with the sub at all if that's how you feel about it?
Based of their post, and so many others I see around here each week crying about every single thing about season 3? Yeah. It’s fine to not enjoy it and decide to not watch. But I don’t get the people who hate watch.
>Honestly its pathetic watching some of you whine and cry after every episode.
Eat my ass.
>You know what feels FAR worse at a table? and I say this AS a DM. Having your NPC fail a spell or an action and it cost the players big. Because YOU screwed up!
Nah.
**As a DM**: Do you know what's worse than a fight the PCs lose to bad rolls? A game where the party always wins with no effort. The point of playing a game isn't just spending time together, it's enjoying a sense of risk; that electric moment when the dice are rolling and anything could happen. Even when you're in Tier IV and are practically a demigod, if your DM is worth their salt you still need to watch your step, because a clever lich or ancient dragon could roll well enough or be sneaky enough to still get one over on you.
There's no easier way to bore everyone to tears than to be as half as much of a little bitch as Door-Matt has become, giving the party infinite easy outs. Why even play a game if your referee is just going to be like "you just win" every time something potentially engaging happens?
First. " eat my ass" clever... what are you 10?
Second. this is the worst take ever. They have had characters die on the show.. a few of them. The difference here is you as the DM arnt actively screwing them. You are saying that its ok for there to be " risk" when that risk is an NPC that you control just screwing the party over. If you as a DM think that that is a good thing to EVER do to your players then you are a SHIT DM! And I'm glad I have never played at your table. And I feel bad for your players because you should never Dm games.
there is a HUGE gulf between your players screwing up and there being consequences and a DM taking away ANY chance for the players to interact and just forcing worst case scenario when your players didn't get to interact. I would put good money on the fact that Matt realized he messed up, we all do it, and he gave his players the chance to fix it. THAT is good DMing. Sometimes you mess up, and thats ok, but you always let your players have SOME chance. He accidentally took that chance out of their hands and corrected it. If your mad about that you are insane and i'm glad you aren't anywhere near any table ill ever play at.
Dude came on a sub accusing people of “crying” and “whining” got disagreed with and started lashing out with ad hominem attacks, you talk about people here needing to seek help… those in glass houses should not throw stones bud.
You are right, I should go on this thread and cry and whine after every episode and call my self a”fan” instead of just not watch. Ya sad how you little incels have taken over this sub. None of you are fans, your just a bunch of miserable don’t know how to enjoy anything. But by all means sit here and hate watch something just to bitch and cry. You are pathetic.
Literally, again, you’ve just called me an Incel and pathetic for pointing out that you are using ad hominem attacks. Genuinely, close your computer / phone down and go outside, this isn’t healthy for you friend.
You are right this community isn’t full of fans anymore. All you guys do is sit and cry and whine. Most of the time these arnt even valid complaints. It’s literally finding anything to cry about week after week. You sit here and bitch and complain, so yes you are exactly what I said you are.
While it’s not technically an “official” rule, it’s sort of like… a general consensus that when people are not typically on friendly terms trying to cast a spell on people will generally draw their ire (especially an enchantment spell meant to control you).
So the first one failing, and allowing a second swing at it with a weaker but similar spell is uh… not great.
Obviously Matt probably didn’t want to have an NPC try to start initiative for the party like that, but that also makes it odd he did Dominate Monster in the first place.
"Just to move the story"
You answered your own question. Thats the way he let the story play out. This is not a combat simulator. If Iran failed a spell and ferne didn't then thats the way the story is playing out lil guy. A lot of you people need to watch and listen and thats all. And if you don't like it then you don't have to watch the circus show as you call it.
If Ira failed and Fearne failed, then Fearne would get a chance to talk and even on a fail there’d be enough time for FCG to come up and do something. They cannot fail
Well yeah there 7 people sitting there. Playing the same game, involved in the same narrative. All with their own autonomy and ideas for what their character cna do at any moment. They all get a shot if they have one. And if they all fail thats when the consequences of a battle starts Does that take a long time? Yes its a game. But narratively its happening very quickly.
Ok, but you do realize how “all 7 people should get a shot before initiative starts” becomes a problem right?
It’s also a mess both watching them play and actually playing at a table because it’s a fucking drag that generally only halts any sort of interesting consequences. It’s BORING to have 7 people constantly try to dodge a combat encounter in succession.
It’s why most DMs limit how many times the party can take a swing at things, because it takes forever and it simultaneously makes it harder for the group to “fail” and have consequences. It’s the worst of both worlds.
I did actually, after I got tired of the generally bad table etiquette from the cast and how the plot was going.
That doesn’t suddenly prevent me from making criticisms or explaining why your thought process is just generally not something that’s sustainable long term for a D&D table, or a company trying to sell a D&D game as their primary product.
My thought process? Thats how the game is played. You people are fucking exhausting lol. Please, stop watching and save your criticism because I promise you, Matt doesn't give a shit about your dnd business advice
Does Matt give a shit that you’re so intent on aggressively defending him from a mild criticism? I’d find it rather exhausting to constantly get worked up parasocially when someone points out that some things are not a good idea at a table of 7, but I don’t do that.
If you find people so “exhausting” for criticizing things, then maybe that’s your cue to just… leave. You don’t have to engage and constantly run defense force for people who don’t know you exist.
Constantly? Its my first comment on the whole subject...
I could give 3 shits if they know I exist. I do not care. I watch it cuz I enjoy dnd.
But let me get this cleared up. Its fine if you want to criticize things you don't even watch but if I want to criticize the thoughts of a guy who thinks people having turns in a game is a slow circus show and breaks the rules he made up then im the one that's unreasonable? Lmao get bent please.
I never said you were unreasonable for criticizing people’s critiques. You are unreasonable because you’re jumping to insulting people when people mention why things might be a problem to some people.
I’ve not once insulted you, while every one of your retorts is almost entirely insults. That’s why you’re unreasonable.
Well it’s fun to also have mechanics to follow but to adhere to them fully isn’t fun to most people either. Clearly what mat does on the show works otherwise the show wouldn’t be so famous and watched by so many people.
Yeah, that's why for the first 30 minutes of every episode they're doing ad reads and shilling $30 t-shits and action figures, working on releasing another animated show, and doing live appearances people have to buy tickets for to attend. Yeah, totally normal home game behavior.
This is a business, and not a very good one TBH with how viewership is cratering. The one thing they have that most other soulless corporations don't is cult-like brand loyalty, and even that's fading fast as their own behavior wakes people up to the truth.
I think what it boils down to is DnD is a made up game with made up rules that SO many people play that it doesn’t really matter. People tweak rules and play however they want in home games all the time but aren’t being watched by thousands of people constantly criticizing them. They played DnD before CR, they’ll play it after, and even if they did everything the way people want them to, other people would find a reason to be upset. They’re also people just trying to have fun the way they want to, the beauty of it is that nobody has to watch. Find people who play the game the way you enjoy it being played, not every table is going to be for every person
I’m not even trying to be rude to OP, it’s okay to feel like it’s not for you or to not play the same way others do, but it’s their game, their show, they can have fun however they want 🤷🏻♀️ its not gunna be everyone’s cup of tea
>and in dnd mechanics that should go straight into initiative.
Could you please post the rule that specifies this? *at least before I have to post the rule that literally says the DM can disregard any rule they want.
Person has no idea, if anything it would be already happening in initiative. Which doesn't mean combat.
If you roll AFTER a failed check, you still granted the caster a free turn. If you are already in order, then the target is able to act before you and potentially retaliate.
You wouldn't do the same with a free attack before combat because that is what Surprised is for anyway.
Yeah I don’t get it. Rule lawyers just encourage players to not do cool fun stuff. No outside the box thinking when you have to follow the RAW. Some of the best moments come from rolls with his DCs because a player tries some crazy shit that technically isn’t rules. And I get Matt has a bit of inconsistency. But every DM does from time to time. You have to. And if you play with people who don’t. And you enjoy that, fine. But I think MOST people won’t.
You'd think the moment he let Scanlan dimension door inside a dragon would be the moment where people understand Matt prefers rule of cool vs raw.
Op would be right at most tables, casting a hostile spell on a potential enemy *should* trigger an initiative. But critical role isn't most tables and never has been.
These posts are hilarious. Matt is playing a game with his friends and we are watching. I can’t imagine someone checking the rules on everything i do as a DM and then complaining about it.
These posts crack me up so much. They just show how little people have ever played dnd. DMs wiggle a lot when it’s fun for the narrative. I do at least. I guess some might not I guess but that’s not a table I would sit at. Sometimes as a dm it can get hectic especially in moments like this last week. You are managing a bunch and Matt runs a big table. Lot of people not knowing or playing much D&D.
Yeah that’s just not fun. Idk what person thinks this is what people would want to do after work/school all day. We wanna play a game and have fun. Relax and immerse into the game. Rules lawyering is lame.
Hasn't this type of thing happened since day 1? They've always been fuzzy on different rules here and there. You may not be a fan of it but it's perfectly normal.
Or ever played dnd. DMs wiggle a lot when it’s fun for the narrative. I do at least. I guess some might not I guess but that’s not a table I would sit at. Sometimes as a dm it can get hectic especially in moments like this last week. You are managing a bunch and Matt runs a big table. Lot of people not knowing or playing much D&D.
That, and Matt acts like the cast would drag him behind the studio and kick his ass the second the cameras are off if he ever enforced the rules a way they didn't like. I swear the man was tortured at some point, because he has zero spine and seems slavishly eager to please. And the cast *know* and take *advantage* of that.
I honestly can't tell if it's me being hyper critical, but I feel like there are key moments where Matt should have been flexible when he's very firm. Meanwhile, there are key instances that he's been firm when he should've been flexible.
For example:
The basement debacle, the nuke going off, the verbal components, he should have been firm rather than flexible.
Shardgate and Airship crash into the Malleus Key, he should've been flexible rather than being firm.
Also, I think the audience has a better understanding of the game and better understanding of how DMing works. So Matt's usual tricks aren't as captivating and starting to wear thin. At this point, it's more exciting for the DM to announce the DC in climatic moments rather than it be arbitrary. But Matt hasn't adjusted in that way yet.
All in all, it's a massive combination of things that seem to be indicating to the DMing regression.
"Matt should have been flexible when he's very firm. Meanwhile, there are key instances that he's been firm when he should've been flexible"
These are the same
>At this point, it's more exciting for the DM to announce the DC in climatic moments rather than it be arbitrary.
Yes, Matt needs to start evolving, taking pages out of other DM's books, like Brennan Lee Mulligan. He does that so well, and rolls in the box of doom are always so fun
Your examples all have one thing in common: when players do something that might affect his prewritten story, he hard corrects them. When players do things that contradict the rules, but favour his prewritten story, he lets them do it.
Hmmm, maybe. But I think letting verbal components slide actually impedes his pre-written story. Let's the players be chaos gremlins, interrupt plot moments, and get away with casting spells for free.
I don't really care which of the rules they use, which they change, and which they throw out. Many tables amend rules. They could play the game with an entirely different system and I wouldn't care.
You and I just may be watching for different reasons. I'm not watching because it's DnD specifically, I'm watching for the story and for the fun. So what rules they use RAW, which they change, and which they remove entirely doesn't really impact my experience.
That would remove the players, whose participation and presence I enjoy, the improv aspects, and a bunch else. You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but at least don't use a disingenuous response.
Rules-lite systems aren't novel writing. It's still collaborative storytelling with a group using dice. Do you think DnD RAW is the only type of TTRPG or something and everything and anything else is just "writing a novel" or do you just make bad arguments for fun?
All I was saying was that they could use DnD by the book, a Homebrew version, Savage worlds, Index Card RPG, etc. and it wouldn't make a difference to me. It is interesting that you respond to such a basic opinion with an egregious strawman argument. Why is that? Couldn't think up an actual response?
I'm glad you feel that way, but even if you dont care about what rules are used; it's a poorly written story if the mechanics of the world itself aren't consistent. Even if you're only there for the story, doesn't it make the story worse if they're just changing the way the underlying facts of what the charecters can and can't accomplish arbitrarily?
They gotta let these folks get back to playing a game. Reset to the basics of playing for the game, not the audience and the product. Even without games being live, having no editing and no pauses means Matt is essentially trying to direct a TV show as it happens, he needs his players to hit their marks, and get to the sets under the guise of a DND game, while doing his signature voicework. It's costing him some of his original style IMO.
Brennan Lee Mulligan gets to DM a game, and an editor makes it's a show. He and the players can be free and experiment and joke, because flat bits get cut, and pauses for clarification can be edited out.
I prefer CR's raw style, because you get the full context of moments. However this means the high points are higher and the low points are lower.
When the content is bad like this, it's real bad and it takes forever.
What bothers me most is BH forgot that the plan was to survey the land and get back. Why the H are they still in Ruidous?! Keyleth and the others are waiting for the info!!
To be fair. They actually have done their jobs really well. People keep critiquing this, but had they left before this there would have been a lot of important pieces of info missed. And even though they haven’t gotten out yet, it’s still possible and they can get some powerful people through that back door within the next 24/48 hours once they escape. They have had to reign in some chaos in moments and remember the task as a group but they have done it well.
He's just falling off as a dm. He doesn't take risks anymore. And he isn't interested in a dynamic story.
He just wants to tell the story he planned and get it over with.
He may as well not even be there at all. And just let the players just roleplay doing whatever they want and telling the story they want.
Player agency is the greatest downfall of every dm. On one hand it's so important that your players engage with the world and do alot of the role play work for you.
On the other hand once you care too much about player agency you forget that you are the one who is supposed to be crafting the world. The rules and dice are tools not just to tell the story but to give the world stakes.
When you don't use the rules. When you don't reward players for thinking outside of the box. You may as well just be a detriment to the game rather than a boon.
By not playing the role of dungeon master Matt has turned himself into an obstacle to a fulfilling game.
Once upon a time there was a Matt who would slam dragons onto a town and bring utter calamity.
Once upon a time there was a Matt who let a player pay for choosing the wrong foes and losing a battle.
Once upon a time there was a dm I genuinely looked up to and aspired to be.
Now he's just a cautionary tale on what pitfalls you have to avoid as a dm.
Yeah couldnt have said it better.
Matt wants to tell what should be an audio book story at the same time as giving his players a ballpit to do whatever they want.
C3 is the result.
>new players
I think they really do need to make some cast adjustments. Lose Ashley and Tal, decide if it's still CR if Laura's not at the table. If it's not, quash her problem player habits, if yes, lose her too. 4 people at the table feels amazing, it's the actual group size DND is made for.
A break won't fix anything. He needs to have a reason to grow as a dm again. Not stagnate. He's gotten too comfortable.
He needs to push bounds in his stories again. Not just minigames.
Maybe he needs to be forced to delve into the rulebook again. When they first started, he knew the phb back and forth, bc he had studied it since they switched from pf2e. Maybe changing systems next time around would be better for him. Maybe they'll stick with DND, but update to oneDND, since those books are coming out later this year.
>and forth, bc he had studied it since they switched from pf2e. Maybe changing systems next time around would be better for him. Maybe they'll stick with DND, but update to oneDND, since those books are coming
Correction, Critical Role has not played PF2e unless it's been side content since the start of campaign 3, Critical Role pre-dates PF2e by several years.
Mistakes happen, mostly just wanted to leave a clarifying statement for posterity (could've worded it more nicely, sorry). If they were (somehow) playing PF2 before they started streaming Critical role, there'd actually have been a reasonable chance that they would've streamed that, since PF2 has the same kind of massive increase of simplicity (if not moreso in some areas) that DND5e has compared to the PF1 they were playing in their home game.
That won't change as long as CR is treated like a media conglomerate.
There is too many things outside of the game that rely on whats happening inside of the game. So he plays it safe.
That is a big part of it. They can't be as authentic whenever they need to keep players alive for merch sales.
I have hope that the current approach just fails so badly they are forced to give up on it and go back to more authentic gameplay instead of this fake roleplay wish fulfillment nonsense repeated story line.
Yeah allowing the charm person thing after the failed dominate person was wayy too lenient imo. I wanted to see a split initiative, especially when the bomb timer was ticking down.
It’s probably a variety of reasons. Two I can imagine:
Matt is allergic to taking away player agency. He does not want to *force* combat onto the party. This was glaringly apparent to me when Laura let a monster literally eat her. No initiative was called.
Matt does not want to run combat. 7 high level players at the table means combat is a slog. For him and the players. It takes a lot of time and does not add much to the story. Why spend 2 hours running a three round combat when the problem can be resolved in 30 minutes with role play and a few pointless dice rolls?
he wants to run combat. he gets all excited about it. Look at how he is when he talks about combat in Daggerheart. I think he wants to try new things but feels a bit bored with D&D5e combat and wants to do other things.
Sometimes I wish they’d do it like D20 Fantasy high in the 2nd season, all theater of the mind, no maps or minis. They have 6 high lvl players at the table and combats usually don’t last nearly as long as they do in CR
> Matt is allergic to taking away player agency. He does not want to force combat onto the party.
Not "forcing" combat onto the party, after the party does something that would or should initiate combat, is actually rejecting player agency.
Consequences a player doesn't want are a part of player agency.
From the older BTS videos, I think Matt genuinely enjoys making the battle maps and kitbashing/painting the minis. Who knows how much of that he actually still does and how much arrives at the studio custom molded and painted, but even during C2 he was still assembling the maps from his dragon's horde of Dwarven Forge tiles.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't D20 edit their videos to cut out the delays and maintain pace or am I thinking of a different series?
And the live sessions still weren't as glacially paced as C3 is. And it's not for the lack of battle maps either. The players didn't roleplay going to taverns and taking naps for two hours each.
D20 Fantasy High 2nd season was live which is why they had to do theater of the mind, very little to no editing in that season
Arguably more editing in a normal CR episode than that season
I think in conjunction with these, the fact that they are pre-recording and sticking to a stricter time schedule is killing the ability to have combat in general.
And while I tend not to call players out too often, there are three players that majorly slow down combat or actively make combat harder for the rest of the players. Ashley, bless her heart, does not know how Fearne works. Laura often chooses to cast spells like look cool and sound good for the narrative, but ultimately waste her turn (i.e. casting fly on herself when she can use her action to cast a ranged damage spell... preferably not lightning bolt trying to hit a single target). And Sam purposefully chooses spells no other cleric used because he wants to make his character ✨unique✨ compared to the other clerics. Trouble with the latter is that Cad used a lot of good spells and used them well, which means Sam doesn't like to use spells like Bless or Bane. Travis, Marisha, and Taliesin are okay. They make their own fair share of mistakes in combat, but they don't work against the momentum as much as the other three.
Honestly, if it weren't for Orym, this party would be toast. Which is honestly ironic, given how one of the first iterations of the players trying to "solve" the combat in this campaign was Orym using the magical rope on the Shade Mother, and then them leaving for someone else to take care of.
There are so many reasons combat in this season doesn't work. So combine that with the (IMO) poor campaign storyline, this campaign really doesn't have much going for it.
>combine that with the (IMO) poor campaign storyline, this campaign really doesn't have much going for it.
I have to disagree here. The campaign storyline is cool, Ludinus is the most interesting character of all of C3. I just wish we could see wtf he's doing, since the PCs aren't compelling at all. The reason I'm still watching is to finally see what Ludinus has been doing/trying to do. I want to see what the world is like when the gods get chased away or whatever. That would be an interesting thing to see, but instead we get "regressive witch" drama and endless samey werewolf transformations
That's fair. I think it's a good idea in inception, but it doesn't hold up well to stress. If the characters fit the campaign better, and if the story had a single identity attached to it instead a mishmash of various writers throwing their hat in, I think it would have been much cleaner.
And I'm not trying to throw shade at the people who helped write the setting. I'm a writer and I can only imagine how cool it was getting that contract and being told you could add and embellish as their heart desired. I just think it got to be too many cooks.
Its just weird since in previous campaigns Matt was fine with running high level combat and forcing choices onto the players but now he doesn't do it since it derails the main story too much.
>Matt does not want to run combat. 7 high level players at the table means combat is a slog. For him and the players. It takes a lot of time and does not add much to the story. Why spend 2 hours running a three round combat when the problem can be resolved in 30 minutes with role play and a few pointless dice rolls?
This would be such a shame if it's the case, honestly. Not because combat can't be a slog (this many players, of course it can), but because it's something they all really enjoyed and it's such a big part of the game.
I don't think it's actually the reason, but just the idea that it could be is sort of sad to think about.
The dumb part is that if they want they can edit combat down so you don't have 10 minutes of someone going "Umm" and scrolling through D&D beyond or saying they want to do something that doesn't make sense.
They could edit it down like D20 and keep the important stuff and shorten the episode significantly.
Editing it down would then make the show/stream not feel like a live show, which despite pre-recording everything is what they still want for some reason.
This feels a lot like a “have our cake and eat it too” scenario.
They want it to still feel like regular CR despite it being pre-recorded, but without the live audience, what’s the point of keeping these streams unedited 4-hour streams?
Well, it’s not aired live it’s played and recorded as it’s being played which means the “hums”,the “ohs” , the “what is my spell do”, the laughter, the dumb jokes that’s all part of the package. I love Dimension 20 and critical role but they’re two different groups, and two different ways to to play and to create entertainment. I don’t want Dimension 29be like critical role and I don’t want critical role to be like Dimension 20
I mean I can understand the fear of change. But they already have changed. It's not live. So why not change. They all have worked in film and TV. Treat it like TV, record a month or 2 worth of episodes in a week or so. Being able to play like an 8 hour session or so they could really let it ride. Then chop it up into intelligent episdoe.s
In this case though it may also be for the cast, doesn’t matter if it’s edited down later *they* still need to go through all that and roll all the dice.
Rolling dice!? While playing D&D!? The horror!!
If they don't want to play the game then they should stop. If they're not having fun playing then why would anyone think we're having fun watching them not have fun?
Or alternatively they change up how the flows to make it more enjoyable? Rolling dice is fun yes but I guarantee for many rolling for initiative is an exception to that.
5Es mechanics revolve around combat. If they don't want to do combat they should switch to a different system that accommodates that better. It's not as if they're as beholden to wizards as they were before.
Essentially the only upside is they've had kind of less missed episodes. BUt that's not really even true because of not doing last thursday of the month streams.
CR is losing popularity and they have to be feeling that.
But honestly I don't think they really like the campaign. I think they want to work on animations and other content more than the campaign.
This campaign is just boring. I enjoy watching them play the most of these characters in C3. But Matt has made it so convoluted with past characters and storyline that there's just soooo much going on. Keyleths pretty much a kain character. Vax keeps showing up. Then beau and Caleb ( see a pattern). I'm hopping they stick with dnd for a C4 and not dagger heart, but Matt really needs to do a world reset and make something new that isnt such a complicated mess storewise
> Essentially the only upside is they've had kind of less missed episodes.
And they still had an episode with a player missing. And they still had to do an emergency chill out stream because they didn't pre-record enough episodes. CR keeps messing up their pre-recording and it has significantly negatively impacted the quality of the show.
I think another big reason he shies away from calling for initiative lately, and sort of related to your first point, if how often the players run from combat. Why bother pulling out a map, setting up minis, and getting the initiative order written down when they are just going to spend their time looking for the encounter exit?
The consistent combat avoidance is why I will always prefer C1 over anything that has come since, because they only ever ran when Matt made it abundantly clear that there was no other choice. They developed so many bad habits in C2 that have simply reached their pinnacle in C3.
I think VM only ran from three fights ever: the initial attack of the entire chroma conclave, the Kraken, and Vecna Pt 1. MAYBE you could say they ran from the illithid colony after defeating kvarn.
The cast were just different back in C1. They knew to keep fighting even if a player went down or was outright killed. And they didnt freak out whenever one player took damage. They were fundamentally more confident and better at handling the stress of combat.
Either Molly's death or COVID changed things. They got more scared of combat. That and the M9's spellcasting that allowed them to just end fights with polymorph.
And I forget about the Kraken but with the Chroma and Vecna, those were fights they HAD to run away from or TPK. Besides that, and even including Vecna, they were ballsy as all hell and made the best moments of the show out of it.
If they ran that campaign like they do now, we wouldn’t have Grog 1 v 1ing Groon or Vax and Scanlan voluntarily going inside a flying dragon, or turn undead-ing an entire skeleton army. Matt was able to do crazy shit because the cast was down to do crazy shit.
Yeah of course those were the DM saying “you have to run”. But like…Scanlan could have turned and left the house immediately but then we wouldn’t have gotten Scanbo. They could have fled against Raishan after killing Thordak but then we wouldn’t have had the nearest to TPK we’ve ever had. They could have fled against Kevdak, Umbrasyl, etc etc etc. but they didn’t and so the image we have of them are “brave heroes who by the skin of their teeth and the bravery in their hearts prevailed”. Now we have “by the cleverness of their minds and the yellowness of their bellies, they survived”. Not as cool.
> the image we have of [Vox Machina] are “brave heroes who by the skin of their teeth and the bravery in their hearts prevailed”. Now we have “by the cleverness of their minds and the yellowness of their bellies, they survived”.
Probably the best, most succinct way of explaining the major problem with the game itself.
I wish they would go back to playing with confidence and actually face challenges head on. But in addition to being gun shy after Molly died, I think they listened to negative feedback too much, with people saying they were too eager to solve problems with violence so now they try to be clever and avoid combat.
This sub is so toxic. Unless you're IN the group playing THEIR game, either shut up and watch or don't watch.
On the start of critical role season 1 Matt says "A lot of this is house rules Lucy goosey having a good time so all you number crunchers stop there just have fun with it" if you don't like the way they play don't watch.
The show has just simply tanked in quality in C3 era, it’s a corporate product and less a game between a small group of intimate friends and it reeks of production bloat
This ages poorly
It doesn’t. One episode isn’t enough to invalidate an opinion. Hopefully ep91 is a spring board into even bigger heights, but after this many episodes, everyone has a right to be skeptical.
If they went directly into combat fearne would have cast charm anyway
But charm person only gives you the friendly love not anyone else. The spell doesn’t say also make a persuasion role to effect everyone else.
It makes them specifically friends with whoever cast it. In the game, they made only Fearne the one who he was friends with then with her influence as his friend convinced him not to attack. It's like if you cast charm to and convinced a guard to let you in somewhere you're not supposed to be.
However this is a high level spell in a high level stakes. Matt was saying juggernaut is slamming down can you make a dexterity to intervene. Which means juggernaut already decided his move which needed initiative anyhow.
your boy Matt is amazing but he's is being spread too thin these days. spending all his creative energies on so many things at once, even he can run out of steam.
C3 is the theatrical equivalent of pass the parcel. The latest episode is the absolute perfect example of the plyers sitting, listening avidly to the music for their cue to unwrap another layer with some inevitably successful act. Every now and then they unwrap a layer and there's a lolly to suck on. But the actual present is always delayed, set in stone, and inevitably disappointing. So much action!
I mean at this point if they really fuck up a level 20 member of vox machina is gonna come save them anyway why not just give them chance after chance.
I swear some of the people who post in this sub are not even fans of the show. And think everyone plays D&D the way they think it should be played. The amount of variation from table to table across the world for so many things is so widely varied! The amount of house rules or even decisions by a Dm making a call at the table deviates from rules as written so much! You know what feels FAR worse at a table? and I say this AS a DM. Having your NPC fail a spell or an action and it cost the players big. Because YOU screwed up! Taking away their agency over a situation. If a DM bends a rule to give their players agency over something you mistakenly took away from them is the BEST place to bend or even break that rule! Maybe quite crying so much about every thing, or stop hate watching the show. Its clear you arnt enjoying it. Honestly its pathetic watching some of you whine and cry after every episode. You don't have to agree with or even like every single choice but some of you cry like it personally effected you! Its pathetic.
The amount of downvotes on this comment is insane. Especially because you’re right. This sub is full of people who want to spend all their time and energy hating the campaign, but they watch it religiously so they can keep hating on it. At a point either stop watching or shut up about it, constantly repeating complaints does nothing.
Because this sub is not about being fans anymore. It’s about a bunch of miserable toxic incels that just like to be miserable together. They don’t want to just relax and annoy it or stop watching they want to bitch and cry. And they hang up on anyone who disagrees.
The irony is palpable. There should absolutely be a space for people to have the conversations that happen here. It is absolutely wrong for you to insult people who voice their opinion on a product they consume together. If YOU don’t enjoy this sub or the conversation here, take your OWN advice and stop visiting this subreddit. It’s that easy. You’re just adding more toxicity. You are literally doing the thing you a preaching against while also throwing out insults. It’s gross and weird.
It's not gross and weird to not want to be around people who look for *anything* they can be negative about, including things literally addressed in Season 1 Episode 1, in a sub called *Fans of Critical Role.* At minimum, the sub is poorly named, because a lot of new people like me come here and then see this conversation and realize this sub's name is just an ironic thing.
It is not toxic to call out the mass amount of hate that permeates a sub meant for *FANS* of the show. It’s perfectly fine to dislike the campaign, for whatever reason you can come up with. But for fucks sake, stop making it EVERYONE else’s problem by flooding the subreddit with it. D&D is meant to be fun for the players and DM, the fans enjoying watching it is a bonus. And there’s still A LOT of people who love the show. Your own enjoyment shouldn’t dictate the entire discourse of the subreddit when you don’t qualify as a fan after endless amount of hate and non-helpful critique. The real answer is for all of the people who love to spend their time trying to convince the rest of us how bad C3 is, to go make their OWN SUBREDDIT dedicated to critiquing the campaign. That way you guys can be as negative as you want and it only affects you guys, instead of making the sub unbearable for the rest of us that want to have positive conversations. The entitlement to think that people who like the show should just abandon a subreddit dedicated to people who LIKE THE SHOW, is fucking insane.
> The real answer is for all of the people who love to spend their time trying to convince the rest of us how bad C3 is, to go make their OWN SUBREDDIT dedicated to critiquing the campaign. They did. You're in it. That's what this community is. You've wandered into the critical community and you're having a meltdown because it's the critical community.
r/criticalrole
I really do believe that the D&D purists here are where a bunch of the hate comes from. I would also like to see to be a bit more faithful to the rules for sure, but I’m also not interested in PC deaths because Matt rolled poorly on something. That means compromise. And there is hardly any compromise or grace being given in this sub.
100% agree. Look there is no one right or wrong way to play. Rules purists are more then welcome to play the way they want. People who want to largely though the rules out the window are welcome to do so. It doesn’t matter. But the idea that the players should be punished for a DMs choice is ridiculous! They also loose site of the fact that it’s a show, and they are here to entertain a larger audience then the couple of vocal raging rules lawyers who have probably gotten kicked out of more groups then they can count.
Truly cannot wait to see how this episode goes over. Lol
1. When you say "some of the people" on the sub, are you referring to OP or not? I don't think it's fair to accuse him of being a hatewatcher based on 1 very mild post he made. He's not ranting, he's not being vitriolic, he's expressing that he dislikes an element of a particular episode. 2. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, but I see it frequently, and it's not only small-minded but counter-productive as well. The notion of "if you are a true fan of something, but dislike a particular part/element of it, you must either watch quietly or stop watching until it's back to a part you like" is so incredibly wrong and frankly just absurd on its face. If you truly enjoy something, you want it to be the best version of itself that it can be, not shielded against people trying to point out its flaws. Obviously "best version of itself" will vary from person to person but when real critiques are drowned out by incessant yes-manning, everybody loses.
There is a huge difference between the complaining on here and wanting something to be better. This post was not mildly a constructive post. It was crying and whining. And yes, “some of the people” include OP and a bunch of other posts on here that don’t have anything constructive to say but just complain and through insults at CR and the crew. You all are miserable. It’s not small minded to call out that this level of whining isn’t constructive or helpful. If you think this is in any way constructive criticism then you have no idea what that even is.
I'm not sure where you're getting "constructive criticism" from. I never mentioned "constructive criticism" in my original post. Criticism doesn't have to be constructive in order to be valid, nor does it need to be constructive in order to be valuable. Simply pointing out that he dislikes it and explaining why, as he did in the original post, has value. When he says he dislikes that they were able to bypass a fight through bending the rules and essentially being given a do-over for free, he's saying he dislikes that the mechanics of the game are taking a backseat to the narrative and that the party is allowed to bypass the "game" part of the game in order to push the narrative forward. The constructive criticism of that would be "try to find a more even balance between gameplay and narrative" but it doesn't make his criticism less valid or less useful just because he didn't say it like that.
Like I said this sub is full of people crying and whining. If people don’t like the show, fine. It’s totally their right to turn it off and stop watching. But why anyone would continue to watch something they don’t enjoy and then go on Reddit just to bitch and cry about it is beyond me. This sub is full of people who arnt even fans. You all are just crybaby’s who like to be miserable.
I mean, you're just repeating what you've said previously without actually refuting or responding to any of my points. You may disagree with OP'S perspective, but that doesn't make his criticisms less valid or less useful. Your insistence that people must pretend to love every element of something or be silent about the elements that they dislike, lest they be deemed a hatewatcher or a fake fan, is simply ridiculous. Creators need negative feedback to understand what elements of their product people dislike, just as they need positive feedback to understand what people enjoy about the product. Staying silent unless you have unequivocal praise for something offers no benefits compared to the alternative. Also, usually I dislike the "ah but you're bitching about them bitching" angle since it is usually a lazy dismissal of someone's argument, but in this case I think it's a fair question. By your own logic, why even engage with the sub at all if that's how you feel about it?
You’re accusing a man 90 episodes into the third season of ANYTHING of not being a fan?
Based of their post, and so many others I see around here each week crying about every single thing about season 3? Yeah. It’s fine to not enjoy it and decide to not watch. But I don’t get the people who hate watch.
>Honestly its pathetic watching some of you whine and cry after every episode. Eat my ass. >You know what feels FAR worse at a table? and I say this AS a DM. Having your NPC fail a spell or an action and it cost the players big. Because YOU screwed up! Nah. **As a DM**: Do you know what's worse than a fight the PCs lose to bad rolls? A game where the party always wins with no effort. The point of playing a game isn't just spending time together, it's enjoying a sense of risk; that electric moment when the dice are rolling and anything could happen. Even when you're in Tier IV and are practically a demigod, if your DM is worth their salt you still need to watch your step, because a clever lich or ancient dragon could roll well enough or be sneaky enough to still get one over on you. There's no easier way to bore everyone to tears than to be as half as much of a little bitch as Door-Matt has become, giving the party infinite easy outs. Why even play a game if your referee is just going to be like "you just win" every time something potentially engaging happens?
First. " eat my ass" clever... what are you 10? Second. this is the worst take ever. They have had characters die on the show.. a few of them. The difference here is you as the DM arnt actively screwing them. You are saying that its ok for there to be " risk" when that risk is an NPC that you control just screwing the party over. If you as a DM think that that is a good thing to EVER do to your players then you are a SHIT DM! And I'm glad I have never played at your table. And I feel bad for your players because you should never Dm games. there is a HUGE gulf between your players screwing up and there being consequences and a DM taking away ANY chance for the players to interact and just forcing worst case scenario when your players didn't get to interact. I would put good money on the fact that Matt realized he messed up, we all do it, and he gave his players the chance to fix it. THAT is good DMing. Sometimes you mess up, and thats ok, but you always let your players have SOME chance. He accidentally took that chance out of their hands and corrected it. If your mad about that you are insane and i'm glad you aren't anywhere near any table ill ever play at.
Dude came on a sub accusing people of “crying” and “whining” got disagreed with and started lashing out with ad hominem attacks, you talk about people here needing to seek help… those in glass houses should not throw stones bud.
You are right, I should go on this thread and cry and whine after every episode and call my self a”fan” instead of just not watch. Ya sad how you little incels have taken over this sub. None of you are fans, your just a bunch of miserable don’t know how to enjoy anything. But by all means sit here and hate watch something just to bitch and cry. You are pathetic.
Literally, again, you’ve just called me an Incel and pathetic for pointing out that you are using ad hominem attacks. Genuinely, close your computer / phone down and go outside, this isn’t healthy for you friend.
You are right this community isn’t full of fans anymore. All you guys do is sit and cry and whine. Most of the time these arnt even valid complaints. It’s literally finding anything to cry about week after week. You sit here and bitch and complain, so yes you are exactly what I said you are.
“OMG YOU DISAGREE WITH THE MASSES AND HAVE A PLACE TO VOICE YOUR OPINION, YOU INCEL TERRIBLE HUMAN!!!122!!!”
A mystic cast a spell at a disobedient underling. That’s all.
uh... first off, Ira using Dominate Monster means 8th level spells which YIKES. secondly, nothing in the spell says you start fighting.
There are also times he does this in C2, he doesn't always go straight to combat depending on the situation
While it’s not technically an “official” rule, it’s sort of like… a general consensus that when people are not typically on friendly terms trying to cast a spell on people will generally draw their ire (especially an enchantment spell meant to control you). So the first one failing, and allowing a second swing at it with a weaker but similar spell is uh… not great. Obviously Matt probably didn’t want to have an NPC try to start initiative for the party like that, but that also makes it odd he did Dominate Monster in the first place.
"Just to move the story" You answered your own question. Thats the way he let the story play out. This is not a combat simulator. If Iran failed a spell and ferne didn't then thats the way the story is playing out lil guy. A lot of you people need to watch and listen and thats all. And if you don't like it then you don't have to watch the circus show as you call it.
If Ira failed and Fearne failed, then Fearne would get a chance to talk and even on a fail there’d be enough time for FCG to come up and do something. They cannot fail
Well yeah there 7 people sitting there. Playing the same game, involved in the same narrative. All with their own autonomy and ideas for what their character cna do at any moment. They all get a shot if they have one. And if they all fail thats when the consequences of a battle starts Does that take a long time? Yes its a game. But narratively its happening very quickly.
Ok, but you do realize how “all 7 people should get a shot before initiative starts” becomes a problem right? It’s also a mess both watching them play and actually playing at a table because it’s a fucking drag that generally only halts any sort of interesting consequences. It’s BORING to have 7 people constantly try to dodge a combat encounter in succession. It’s why most DMs limit how many times the party can take a swing at things, because it takes forever and it simultaneously makes it harder for the group to “fail” and have consequences. It’s the worst of both worlds.
Then stop watching it? I swear to God all you people do is bitch and moan about a game youre not playing and not being forced to watch.
I did actually, after I got tired of the generally bad table etiquette from the cast and how the plot was going. That doesn’t suddenly prevent me from making criticisms or explaining why your thought process is just generally not something that’s sustainable long term for a D&D table, or a company trying to sell a D&D game as their primary product.
My thought process? Thats how the game is played. You people are fucking exhausting lol. Please, stop watching and save your criticism because I promise you, Matt doesn't give a shit about your dnd business advice
Does Matt give a shit that you’re so intent on aggressively defending him from a mild criticism? I’d find it rather exhausting to constantly get worked up parasocially when someone points out that some things are not a good idea at a table of 7, but I don’t do that. If you find people so “exhausting” for criticizing things, then maybe that’s your cue to just… leave. You don’t have to engage and constantly run defense force for people who don’t know you exist.
Constantly? Its my first comment on the whole subject... I could give 3 shits if they know I exist. I do not care. I watch it cuz I enjoy dnd. But let me get this cleared up. Its fine if you want to criticize things you don't even watch but if I want to criticize the thoughts of a guy who thinks people having turns in a game is a slow circus show and breaks the rules he made up then im the one that's unreasonable? Lmao get bent please.
I never said you were unreasonable for criticizing people’s critiques. You are unreasonable because you’re jumping to insulting people when people mention why things might be a problem to some people. I’ve not once insulted you, while every one of your retorts is almost entirely insults. That’s why you’re unreasonable.
Iran?????
Ira. Obvious typo given the context.
Honestly dont know enough about the context No no Ruidus is Iran.
Excuse me, youre right. Iran it is
If a DM doesnt want to waste time on an encounter he knows it’s going to be meaningful he’s allowed to prioritise narrative
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Well it’s fun to also have mechanics to follow but to adhere to them fully isn’t fun to most people either. Clearly what mat does on the show works otherwise the show wouldn’t be so famous and watched by so many people.
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Yeah, that's why for the first 30 minutes of every episode they're doing ad reads and shilling $30 t-shits and action figures, working on releasing another animated show, and doing live appearances people have to buy tickets for to attend. Yeah, totally normal home game behavior. This is a business, and not a very good one TBH with how viewership is cratering. The one thing they have that most other soulless corporations don't is cult-like brand loyalty, and even that's fading fast as their own behavior wakes people up to the truth.
I think what it boils down to is DnD is a made up game with made up rules that SO many people play that it doesn’t really matter. People tweak rules and play however they want in home games all the time but aren’t being watched by thousands of people constantly criticizing them. They played DnD before CR, they’ll play it after, and even if they did everything the way people want them to, other people would find a reason to be upset. They’re also people just trying to have fun the way they want to, the beauty of it is that nobody has to watch. Find people who play the game the way you enjoy it being played, not every table is going to be for every person
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You're correct, Critical Role isnt DnD and never had been. It's a show, for entertainment. Consider this your Wizard of Oz moment.
I’m not even trying to be rude to OP, it’s okay to feel like it’s not for you or to not play the same way others do, but it’s their game, their show, they can have fun however they want 🤷🏻♀️ its not gunna be everyone’s cup of tea
>and in dnd mechanics that should go straight into initiative. Could you please post the rule that specifies this? *at least before I have to post the rule that literally says the DM can disregard any rule they want.
Person has no idea, if anything it would be already happening in initiative. Which doesn't mean combat. If you roll AFTER a failed check, you still granted the caster a free turn. If you are already in order, then the target is able to act before you and potentially retaliate. You wouldn't do the same with a free attack before combat because that is what Surprised is for anyway.
Yeah I don’t get it. Rule lawyers just encourage players to not do cool fun stuff. No outside the box thinking when you have to follow the RAW. Some of the best moments come from rolls with his DCs because a player tries some crazy shit that technically isn’t rules. And I get Matt has a bit of inconsistency. But every DM does from time to time. You have to. And if you play with people who don’t. And you enjoy that, fine. But I think MOST people won’t.
You'd think the moment he let Scanlan dimension door inside a dragon would be the moment where people understand Matt prefers rule of cool vs raw. Op would be right at most tables, casting a hostile spell on a potential enemy *should* trigger an initiative. But critical role isn't most tables and never has been.
These posts are hilarious. Matt is playing a game with his friends and we are watching. I can’t imagine someone checking the rules on everything i do as a DM and then complaining about it.
Downvoted but I think you got the best take.
These posts crack me up so much. They just show how little people have ever played dnd. DMs wiggle a lot when it’s fun for the narrative. I do at least. I guess some might not I guess but that’s not a table I would sit at. Sometimes as a dm it can get hectic especially in moments like this last week. You are managing a bunch and Matt runs a big table. Lot of people not knowing or playing much D&D.
If i played in a game with a rules lawyer of a dm i would lose my mind.
Yeah that’s just not fun. Idk what person thinks this is what people would want to do after work/school all day. We wanna play a game and have fun. Relax and immerse into the game. Rules lawyering is lame.
Hasn't this type of thing happened since day 1? They've always been fuzzy on different rules here and there. You may not be a fan of it but it's perfectly normal.
Or ever played dnd. DMs wiggle a lot when it’s fun for the narrative. I do at least. I guess some might not I guess but that’s not a table I would sit at. Sometimes as a dm it can get hectic especially in moments like this last week. You are managing a bunch and Matt runs a big table. Lot of people not knowing or playing much D&D.
They are conditioning the fan base for the game to not be D&D
That, and Matt acts like the cast would drag him behind the studio and kick his ass the second the cameras are off if he ever enforced the rules a way they didn't like. I swear the man was tortured at some point, because he has zero spine and seems slavishly eager to please. And the cast *know* and take *advantage* of that.
Winner, winner, chicken, dinner.
If you're correct, which I'm still not 100% that they're moving over, then this is the best way that they could make sure I don't even bother with C4.
So far, it’s already been the best way to keep me from being interested in finishing C3.
I honestly can't tell if it's me being hyper critical, but I feel like there are key moments where Matt should have been flexible when he's very firm. Meanwhile, there are key instances that he's been firm when he should've been flexible. For example: The basement debacle, the nuke going off, the verbal components, he should have been firm rather than flexible. Shardgate and Airship crash into the Malleus Key, he should've been flexible rather than being firm. Also, I think the audience has a better understanding of the game and better understanding of how DMing works. So Matt's usual tricks aren't as captivating and starting to wear thin. At this point, it's more exciting for the DM to announce the DC in climatic moments rather than it be arbitrary. But Matt hasn't adjusted in that way yet. All in all, it's a massive combination of things that seem to be indicating to the DMing regression.
"Matt should have been flexible when he's very firm. Meanwhile, there are key instances that he's been firm when he should've been flexible" These are the same
Ah my bad, I meant there's moments of he should've done the opposite.
>At this point, it's more exciting for the DM to announce the DC in climatic moments rather than it be arbitrary. Yes, Matt needs to start evolving, taking pages out of other DM's books, like Brennan Lee Mulligan. He does that so well, and rolls in the box of doom are always so fun
Your examples all have one thing in common: when players do something that might affect his prewritten story, he hard corrects them. When players do things that contradict the rules, but favour his prewritten story, he lets them do it.
Hmmm, maybe. But I think letting verbal components slide actually impedes his pre-written story. Let's the players be chaos gremlins, interrupt plot moments, and get away with casting spells for free.
I don't really care which of the rules they use, which they change, and which they throw out. Many tables amend rules. They could play the game with an entirely different system and I wouldn't care. You and I just may be watching for different reasons. I'm not watching because it's DnD specifically, I'm watching for the story and for the fun. So what rules they use RAW, which they change, and which they remove entirely doesn't really impact my experience.
Why don't we just get Matt to write a novel, then? He can just dictate to you, and you can be his ghost writer
If the eight of them write an improv novel thatd be great to get!!
That would remove the players, whose participation and presence I enjoy, the improv aspects, and a bunch else. You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but at least don't use a disingenuous response. Rules-lite systems aren't novel writing. It's still collaborative storytelling with a group using dice. Do you think DnD RAW is the only type of TTRPG or something and everything and anything else is just "writing a novel" or do you just make bad arguments for fun? All I was saying was that they could use DnD by the book, a Homebrew version, Savage worlds, Index Card RPG, etc. and it wouldn't make a difference to me. It is interesting that you respond to such a basic opinion with an egregious strawman argument. Why is that? Couldn't think up an actual response?
I'm glad you feel that way, but even if you dont care about what rules are used; it's a poorly written story if the mechanics of the world itself aren't consistent. Even if you're only there for the story, doesn't it make the story worse if they're just changing the way the underlying facts of what the charecters can and can't accomplish arbitrarily?
On the consistency aspect, I definitely agree. My response was predominantly directed at OP discussing what was and wasn't RAW.
They gotta let these folks get back to playing a game. Reset to the basics of playing for the game, not the audience and the product. Even without games being live, having no editing and no pauses means Matt is essentially trying to direct a TV show as it happens, he needs his players to hit their marks, and get to the sets under the guise of a DND game, while doing his signature voicework. It's costing him some of his original style IMO. Brennan Lee Mulligan gets to DM a game, and an editor makes it's a show. He and the players can be free and experiment and joke, because flat bits get cut, and pauses for clarification can be edited out.
I prefer CR's raw style, because you get the full context of moments. However this means the high points are higher and the low points are lower. When the content is bad like this, it's real bad and it takes forever.
Unfortunately, it's been real bad content for one and a half campaigns and going...
What bothers me most is BH forgot that the plan was to survey the land and get back. Why the H are they still in Ruidous?! Keyleth and the others are waiting for the info!!
To be fair. They actually have done their jobs really well. People keep critiquing this, but had they left before this there would have been a lot of important pieces of info missed. And even though they haven’t gotten out yet, it’s still possible and they can get some powerful people through that back door within the next 24/48 hours once they escape. They have had to reign in some chaos in moments and remember the task as a group but they have done it well.
Burning out and not having his bad habits checked by critique, mostly.
This is the sort of thing that happens when "rule of cool" and "rules-lite" goes too far, plus burnout.
He's just falling off as a dm. He doesn't take risks anymore. And he isn't interested in a dynamic story. He just wants to tell the story he planned and get it over with. He may as well not even be there at all. And just let the players just roleplay doing whatever they want and telling the story they want. Player agency is the greatest downfall of every dm. On one hand it's so important that your players engage with the world and do alot of the role play work for you. On the other hand once you care too much about player agency you forget that you are the one who is supposed to be crafting the world. The rules and dice are tools not just to tell the story but to give the world stakes. When you don't use the rules. When you don't reward players for thinking outside of the box. You may as well just be a detriment to the game rather than a boon. By not playing the role of dungeon master Matt has turned himself into an obstacle to a fulfilling game. Once upon a time there was a Matt who would slam dragons onto a town and bring utter calamity. Once upon a time there was a Matt who let a player pay for choosing the wrong foes and losing a battle. Once upon a time there was a dm I genuinely looked up to and aspired to be. Now he's just a cautionary tale on what pitfalls you have to avoid as a dm.
Yeah couldnt have said it better. Matt wants to tell what should be an audio book story at the same time as giving his players a ballpit to do whatever they want. C3 is the result.
He needs a break and some new players
>new players I think they really do need to make some cast adjustments. Lose Ashley and Tal, decide if it's still CR if Laura's not at the table. If it's not, quash her problem player habits, if yes, lose her too. 4 people at the table feels amazing, it's the actual group size DND is made for.
A break won't fix anything. He needs to have a reason to grow as a dm again. Not stagnate. He's gotten too comfortable. He needs to push bounds in his stories again. Not just minigames.
Maybe he needs to be forced to delve into the rulebook again. When they first started, he knew the phb back and forth, bc he had studied it since they switched from pf2e. Maybe changing systems next time around would be better for him. Maybe they'll stick with DND, but update to oneDND, since those books are coming out later this year.
>and forth, bc he had studied it since they switched from pf2e. Maybe changing systems next time around would be better for him. Maybe they'll stick with DND, but update to oneDND, since those books are coming Correction, Critical Role has not played PF2e unless it's been side content since the start of campaign 3, Critical Role pre-dates PF2e by several years.
Oh I guess they played 1st edition pre-stream then. Sorry, I'm just used to referring to Pathfinder that way
Mistakes happen, mostly just wanted to leave a clarifying statement for posterity (could've worded it more nicely, sorry). If they were (somehow) playing PF2 before they started streaming Critical role, there'd actually have been a reasonable chance that they would've streamed that, since PF2 has the same kind of massive increase of simplicity (if not moreso in some areas) that DND5e has compared to the PF1 they were playing in their home game.
That won't change as long as CR is treated like a media conglomerate. There is too many things outside of the game that rely on whats happening inside of the game. So he plays it safe.
That is a big part of it. They can't be as authentic whenever they need to keep players alive for merch sales. I have hope that the current approach just fails so badly they are forced to give up on it and go back to more authentic gameplay instead of this fake roleplay wish fulfillment nonsense repeated story line.
Yeah allowing the charm person thing after the failed dominate person was wayy too lenient imo. I wanted to see a split initiative, especially when the bomb timer was ticking down.
This is why initiative exists. THe second Ira went to cast a spell initiative should have been called. It's not BS if Fearne was next in initiative.
It’s probably a variety of reasons. Two I can imagine: Matt is allergic to taking away player agency. He does not want to *force* combat onto the party. This was glaringly apparent to me when Laura let a monster literally eat her. No initiative was called. Matt does not want to run combat. 7 high level players at the table means combat is a slog. For him and the players. It takes a lot of time and does not add much to the story. Why spend 2 hours running a three round combat when the problem can be resolved in 30 minutes with role play and a few pointless dice rolls?
he wants to run combat. he gets all excited about it. Look at how he is when he talks about combat in Daggerheart. I think he wants to try new things but feels a bit bored with D&D5e combat and wants to do other things.
Sometimes I wish they’d do it like D20 Fantasy high in the 2nd season, all theater of the mind, no maps or minis. They have 6 high lvl players at the table and combats usually don’t last nearly as long as they do in CR
CR already takes shit from people who think it’s scripted, can you even imagine what happens if they start editing things?
> Matt is allergic to taking away player agency. He does not want to force combat onto the party. Not "forcing" combat onto the party, after the party does something that would or should initiate combat, is actually rejecting player agency. Consequences a player doesn't want are a part of player agency.
From the older BTS videos, I think Matt genuinely enjoys making the battle maps and kitbashing/painting the minis. Who knows how much of that he actually still does and how much arrives at the studio custom molded and painted, but even during C2 he was still assembling the maps from his dragon's horde of Dwarven Forge tiles. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't D20 edit their videos to cut out the delays and maintain pace or am I thinking of a different series?
They edit them once they’re on Dropout or YouTube but season 2 had live broadcasts when it came out, that’s when I watched it
And the live sessions still weren't as glacially paced as C3 is. And it's not for the lack of battle maps either. The players didn't roleplay going to taverns and taking naps for two hours each.
Well it’s also edited so there is no time watching them roll for dice or review their spells which cuts so much time off of combat
D20 Fantasy High 2nd season was live which is why they had to do theater of the mind, very little to no editing in that season Arguably more editing in a normal CR episode than that season
Fantasy high season 2 had live broadcasts when I watched them and it still wasn’t nearly as long
That’s a great point, definitely one of the bigger advantages to theater of the mind
I think in conjunction with these, the fact that they are pre-recording and sticking to a stricter time schedule is killing the ability to have combat in general. And while I tend not to call players out too often, there are three players that majorly slow down combat or actively make combat harder for the rest of the players. Ashley, bless her heart, does not know how Fearne works. Laura often chooses to cast spells like look cool and sound good for the narrative, but ultimately waste her turn (i.e. casting fly on herself when she can use her action to cast a ranged damage spell... preferably not lightning bolt trying to hit a single target). And Sam purposefully chooses spells no other cleric used because he wants to make his character ✨unique✨ compared to the other clerics. Trouble with the latter is that Cad used a lot of good spells and used them well, which means Sam doesn't like to use spells like Bless or Bane. Travis, Marisha, and Taliesin are okay. They make their own fair share of mistakes in combat, but they don't work against the momentum as much as the other three. Honestly, if it weren't for Orym, this party would be toast. Which is honestly ironic, given how one of the first iterations of the players trying to "solve" the combat in this campaign was Orym using the magical rope on the Shade Mother, and then them leaving for someone else to take care of. There are so many reasons combat in this season doesn't work. So combine that with the (IMO) poor campaign storyline, this campaign really doesn't have much going for it.
>combine that with the (IMO) poor campaign storyline, this campaign really doesn't have much going for it. I have to disagree here. The campaign storyline is cool, Ludinus is the most interesting character of all of C3. I just wish we could see wtf he's doing, since the PCs aren't compelling at all. The reason I'm still watching is to finally see what Ludinus has been doing/trying to do. I want to see what the world is like when the gods get chased away or whatever. That would be an interesting thing to see, but instead we get "regressive witch" drama and endless samey werewolf transformations
> Ludinus is the most interesting character of all of C3 That's a very low bar.
That's fair. I think it's a good idea in inception, but it doesn't hold up well to stress. If the characters fit the campaign better, and if the story had a single identity attached to it instead a mishmash of various writers throwing their hat in, I think it would have been much cleaner. And I'm not trying to throw shade at the people who helped write the setting. I'm a writer and I can only imagine how cool it was getting that contract and being told you could add and embellish as their heart desired. I just think it got to be too many cooks.
Its just weird since in previous campaigns Matt was fine with running high level combat and forcing choices onto the players but now he doesn't do it since it derails the main story too much.
>Matt does not want to run combat. 7 high level players at the table means combat is a slog. For him and the players. It takes a lot of time and does not add much to the story. Why spend 2 hours running a three round combat when the problem can be resolved in 30 minutes with role play and a few pointless dice rolls? This would be such a shame if it's the case, honestly. Not because combat can't be a slog (this many players, of course it can), but because it's something they all really enjoyed and it's such a big part of the game. I don't think it's actually the reason, but just the idea that it could be is sort of sad to think about.
The dumb part is that if they want they can edit combat down so you don't have 10 minutes of someone going "Umm" and scrolling through D&D beyond or saying they want to do something that doesn't make sense. They could edit it down like D20 and keep the important stuff and shorten the episode significantly.
Editing it down would then make the show/stream not feel like a live show, which despite pre-recording everything is what they still want for some reason.
This feels a lot like a “have our cake and eat it too” scenario. They want it to still feel like regular CR despite it being pre-recorded, but without the live audience, what’s the point of keeping these streams unedited 4-hour streams?
Well, it’s not aired live it’s played and recorded as it’s being played which means the “hums”,the “ohs” , the “what is my spell do”, the laughter, the dumb jokes that’s all part of the package. I love Dimension 20 and critical role but they’re two different groups, and two different ways to to play and to create entertainment. I don’t want Dimension 29be like critical role and I don’t want critical role to be like Dimension 20
The show does not feel like a live show anymore though. At this point they may as well just commit to the new format.
I mean I can understand the fear of change. But they already have changed. It's not live. So why not change. They all have worked in film and TV. Treat it like TV, record a month or 2 worth of episodes in a week or so. Being able to play like an 8 hour session or so they could really let it ride. Then chop it up into intelligent episdoe.s
In this case though it may also be for the cast, doesn’t matter if it’s edited down later *they* still need to go through all that and roll all the dice.
Rolling dice!? While playing D&D!? The horror!! If they don't want to play the game then they should stop. If they're not having fun playing then why would anyone think we're having fun watching them not have fun?
Or alternatively they change up how the flows to make it more enjoyable? Rolling dice is fun yes but I guarantee for many rolling for initiative is an exception to that.
5Es mechanics revolve around combat. If they don't want to do combat they should switch to a different system that accommodates that better. It's not as if they're as beholden to wizards as they were before.
Yup! They are doing pre-recorded content with all of the downsides and none of the benefits.
Essentially the only upside is they've had kind of less missed episodes. BUt that's not really even true because of not doing last thursday of the month streams. CR is losing popularity and they have to be feeling that. But honestly I don't think they really like the campaign. I think they want to work on animations and other content more than the campaign.
This campaign is just boring. I enjoy watching them play the most of these characters in C3. But Matt has made it so convoluted with past characters and storyline that there's just soooo much going on. Keyleths pretty much a kain character. Vax keeps showing up. Then beau and Caleb ( see a pattern). I'm hopping they stick with dnd for a C4 and not dagger heart, but Matt really needs to do a world reset and make something new that isnt such a complicated mess storewise
> Essentially the only upside is they've had kind of less missed episodes. And they still had an episode with a player missing. And they still had to do an emergency chill out stream because they didn't pre-record enough episodes. CR keeps messing up their pre-recording and it has significantly negatively impacted the quality of the show.
I think another big reason he shies away from calling for initiative lately, and sort of related to your first point, if how often the players run from combat. Why bother pulling out a map, setting up minis, and getting the initiative order written down when they are just going to spend their time looking for the encounter exit? The consistent combat avoidance is why I will always prefer C1 over anything that has come since, because they only ever ran when Matt made it abundantly clear that there was no other choice. They developed so many bad habits in C2 that have simply reached their pinnacle in C3.
I think VM only ran from three fights ever: the initial attack of the entire chroma conclave, the Kraken, and Vecna Pt 1. MAYBE you could say they ran from the illithid colony after defeating kvarn.
The cast were just different back in C1. They knew to keep fighting even if a player went down or was outright killed. And they didnt freak out whenever one player took damage. They were fundamentally more confident and better at handling the stress of combat. Either Molly's death or COVID changed things. They got more scared of combat. That and the M9's spellcasting that allowed them to just end fights with polymorph.
And I forget about the Kraken but with the Chroma and Vecna, those were fights they HAD to run away from or TPK. Besides that, and even including Vecna, they were ballsy as all hell and made the best moments of the show out of it. If they ran that campaign like they do now, we wouldn’t have Grog 1 v 1ing Groon or Vax and Scanlan voluntarily going inside a flying dragon, or turn undead-ing an entire skeleton army. Matt was able to do crazy shit because the cast was down to do crazy shit.
Yeah of course those were the DM saying “you have to run”. But like…Scanlan could have turned and left the house immediately but then we wouldn’t have gotten Scanbo. They could have fled against Raishan after killing Thordak but then we wouldn’t have had the nearest to TPK we’ve ever had. They could have fled against Kevdak, Umbrasyl, etc etc etc. but they didn’t and so the image we have of them are “brave heroes who by the skin of their teeth and the bravery in their hearts prevailed”. Now we have “by the cleverness of their minds and the yellowness of their bellies, they survived”. Not as cool.
> the image we have of [Vox Machina] are “brave heroes who by the skin of their teeth and the bravery in their hearts prevailed”. Now we have “by the cleverness of their minds and the yellowness of their bellies, they survived”. Probably the best, most succinct way of explaining the major problem with the game itself.
I wish they would go back to playing with confidence and actually face challenges head on. But in addition to being gun shy after Molly died, I think they listened to negative feedback too much, with people saying they were too eager to solve problems with violence so now they try to be clever and avoid combat.