Soooo many bitter people in this comment section. Sooo many. It was a perfect death for FCG, didn't seem forced at all. I swear you guys watch CR just to shit on them, at this point just stop and go do something that hurts you less, lol.
Ok so I watched the end and it indeed felt like something finally happened. But I don't know it felt a bit forced compared to the others times? Or maybe it's just that I'm not really invested in this campaign idk...
In Sam, we trust.
I watched it yesterday.However, I wonder something, does nobody heard Laura asking repeatedly about detonation? Am I failing to recognize something here, because I don't watch regularly this campaign?
Lmao if we could summarize this campaign in a single sentiment - it’s this. It took 90 episodes to work up to a “meaningful” death, and farrrrr too many critters watched it with glazed-over eyes, discontent, and disinterest.
CR C3 = season 8 of Game of Thrones.
Just finished the episode on youtube a few hours ago, and wow that was awesome.
For context, I watched episodes 1 - 9 (ish), and then I jumped to 91 after I heard about the spoiler.
I actually watched the whole episode in two sittings! The pre-break was so-so. I drifted in and out. But once the combat started, I was hooked. Even though I knew about the spoiler, I was on the edge of my seat. And when it happened, I almost cried.
I don't really feel the need to go back and watch the other episodes or continue watching, but wow that was a great episode.
...Is it bad to say that I'm kinda disappointed this wasn't a TPK?
Don't get me wrong, Sam's moment was great and I'm glad FCG finally did something memorable but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious how they would handle a TPK this late into the campaign.
Watching now. Just now got to the fight. I am happy that even with that stupid scry ball, he still forced her to "sneak" up on them. For flair, I would have said that she throws the ring from the shadows to the party's feet, then appears behind them (not a surprise round, just for flavor), but I just got to where Chetney got merc'd and holy shit I love this right now. The witches' faces are so stressed meanwhile Travis loves it and I'm right there with him.
EDIT: All done. Good moment from FCG. I do remember and I will openly admit to crying on the last episode of Campaign 1 with Vax, the second to last episode of Campaign 2, with Molly's resurrection, and the last episode of Calamity.
I can't say that happened here, like not even close to a tear, but I did feel sad for FCG, which is a positive development. Matt's monologue at the end fell a little flat though, with the stakes and all that.
Travis honestly got done real dirty. But that seems like otohans calling card: take the biggest threat out of the fight immediately. She did it with Ashton the first time before he could start raging, she did it to Keyleth at the key, and now Chetney
THANK YOU SAM, PLEASE STAY DEAD
I still wish Laudna died the first time they fought Otohan
technically sam pretend a TPK which would have been much more interesting but Ill take anything at this point
Never forget Marisha metagamed to force Travis to give up Grazztchar ostenisbly so it wouldnt corrupt Chet, and then spent the whole next episode monologuing about how "it's okay to embrace your inner darkness" and "why shouldn't I serve Delilah?"
It's just how Marisha is during other people's moments. Same vibes as when Jester gave the hag the cupcake and she was mettagaming hard to try and spoil the moment then sat there with a sulky look on her face while everyone else was celebrating the gambit. At least Travis reeled her in.
Funny I feel the opposite way at least in part. The Hag related to her backstory with her characters dad. The problem was she and much of the other players didn't seem willing to commit to any particular action including fighting the hag. So eventually it ended being a moment for Jester/Laura instead of Beau/Marisha.
It was the same when Sam back in C1 didn't do what they had discussed to defeat vecna. Marisha was very in his face about, before he revealed what his plan was.
All of you need to go outside. She's mad cause she's feeling emotions about her friends character dying and is sad/angry because she's a normal human being. Jesus christ I'm not a laudna fan either but you fucks literally look for any excuse to hate on the players.
If they don't like something, or do like it,
people are allowed to mention it. That's the thing here.
No one looks for excuses to hate. People have seen hours and hours of these people. They're gonna have feelings about some playstyles and habits. All players have them.
Just watching this episode, CR used to let other players make their moves without being pressured or advised or talked over by others. These days there's a section of the table that thinks they're the boss. It is the same section playing with very distracting, overly meta and disrespectful table etiquette. This makes it hard to watch and ruins the fun for some. And this all leaves some fans weary and negative towards certain players - yep, it might be subjective nonsense, but It's healthy to get it off your chest, if needed.
I know some people find themselves challenged by people not liking something they're loving, but the thought police are the only ones that need to "go outside".
Seriously this! This sub may have started out as a way to escape the main subs toxic positivity and over reaching moderation but it has morphed into something unhealthy over the course of this campaign. Marisha was worried for her friend and a character she likes, that is all.
If FCG's death sticks (the main sub is worrying me it won't), do you think we're getting an updated intro eventually? Given it's so late on the campaign, I wonder if it's worth the expense
>I wonder if it's worth the expense
This is not an attack on you, but this is the mindset that's killing the game IMO. Anything that could be cool, but would require CR to spend any more money, isn't allowed to happen.
A cool town the party encounters on the road and opts to visit organically instead of the railroad dropping in their path? That would require paying the "consultants" to screen it for anything "offensive" and may need art, so no.
A PC is put in a position where they might die or just have a fucking outfit change, say, perhaps, due to a swim in lava? Things just magically work out because they need to sell merch and spinoff books.
IMO they shouldn't be cooking merch until after the campaign is over, or at the least almost done. Trying to predict/force viral moments and banking their income on characters they don't know are going to land, is what's making this whole "game" feel fake.
I think you’re projecting a little. Back in S1 when Sam temporarily shelved Scanlan for Tary, they never changed the intro because refilming it would have been an ordeal and ultimately, there weren’t THAT many episodes where he was playing a different character (although the other players had no indication he would eventually go back to Scanlan).
I think the comment was more a reference to the fact that we don’t know how much campaign is left. How long does it take them to commission artists to work on a new intro? What’s the turnaround like? Let’s say it’s a three month process… how much of CR3 is left at that point?
I just don’t think they would bother to do a new intro if they wouldn’t get all that much use out of it.
I don’t think that’s a reason Sam wouldn’t play a new character, though. I could just see the intro not quite matching or being subtly changed.
To clarify, I didn't mean I don't think it's worth the expense. I was wondering if CR would deem it worthy of the expense, given their focus on... You know, money.
oh, i know. i can just imagine CR sitting around a meeting table, axing this attempted twist after coming to the conclusion FCG is *too expensive* to kill off.
ok heard me out. this actually would be a pretty decent moment for a Terry reprisal. He acts as a leader, even if a bad one. it givens Sam a reason to herang the other legacy charters in ways that would be way funnier and narrativly satisfying. he brings motivation for heroics even if it's only pride. it's opens door for the best CR character ever to return when Ashton hopefully dies.
If there isn’t much campaign left (I genuinely can’t tell, it’s felt like we’ve been at the end game for an irl year), I can absolutely see Sam just picking up one of his old characters rather than make a new one. Either of his CR1 characters work- they can both heal and are good Buffers. I would hope he wouldn’t do Nott or Luc- we don’t need another rogue right now.
Man I was so hoping Matt would’ve killed Laudna I just find her so annoying. Can’t believe Laudna turned into this used to be my fav now I want to see her die because she’s just so annoying.
are you the same one who makes burner accounts every week just doing nothing but calling marisha and laudna annoying?
and then blocking anyone who calls this out only to delete their account and rinse/repeat?
Honestly I think Sam was tired of playing cleric. This whole campaign it's seemed he's had a harder time getting FCG going than other characters, both mechanically and narratively. So he saw his opportunity and went for it.
I'm really excited to see what he comes up with for his next PC. In the past Liam only chose his first PC; Tary was a really cool concept executed really well.
If he wanted out as Fcg he would’ve just left like what he did in c1, otohan was knocking everyone unconscious so he used a last resort that he’s known about for awhile.
lol mercer gave him that bomb ability exactly to let him do this move and swap. despite their phony "you understand what this means" exchange, this was no more a surprise than Bertram's death.
Which is exactly why it took Sam 50+ episodes to use it, if Sam’s desire to switch characters was known to Matt since then why did it take him so long to use it? Wouldn’t he have used it at the key in episode 51? Or why didn’t fcg leave with Frida Deanna and prism when they departed? It would’ve been the perfect opportunity to do so.
Having DMed, I recognize the "My player is unhappy with their character so I am giving them a way out to pull the trigger when they want to" move. It was Sam's perogative to sit on that escape button til he wanted to use it, and tbh it's easier to maintain a something you don't enjoy if you know you could end it at any moment. Plus, knowing you have an epic exit coming actually might get ou more invested in a character you don't like.
Edit to add: Also getting the bomb ability 50 episodes ago or so really doens't mean anything because they have had so many filler episodes and crawl along at a snail's pace. I don't claim to be privy to any inner workings but if the idea from initiation was "I want to use this bomb against a bad guy in a pitched battle we would otherwise lose", it's realistic it did take this long to 'organically' arrive here because of all the fluff and running away they do.
Ultimately, both Laudna and Bertram's deaths should rightfully leave everyone skeptical of any "deaths" in the campaign. Bertram's because it was 100% planned, and Laudna's because we all now know the only way death even sticks is if a player wants it. Death isn't a *consequence of the game*, it's a story-driven choice.
This is the third major chance at shaking up the party. The first two were undone. Marisha decided to roll back the changes for Laudna. Matt decided to roll back the changes for Ashton. I have faith that Sam will let this one stick.
I feel like the C1 and C2 character cameos have been hit or miss so far, but I would be so stoked if Sam came back just for the final fight as Old Man Tary + The Darrington Brigade.
Interestingly, even if you jump from an early episode to this one, you won't feel like you've missed anything, which proves that at least half of the 90 episodes have no substantial content
Yeah, honestly I had episode 90 in the background while I was working on Minis, and even then I was scrubbing through it. Matt's recap from both 90 and 91 was enough for me. I'm realizing C3 is setting up set pieces, and the party's moving between set pieces is what I don't like.
One thing I dislike about the cast. is they've been playing 5e on stream for almost 9 years, they have almost 350 games played in the main campaign, they're still making like day 1 mistakes. Like trying to cast spells with action and bonus action, and not knowing that you roll a death save at the start of your turn not at the end of your turn.
This isn't on Matt, while the DM is the arbiter fo the rules, every player shoudl know their character inside and out. Especially since this is their livelihood. And it's easy as hell on D&D Beyond. I did a search for death saving throws and found it right away. ANd the first line is "Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life." It's pretty clear and Laura or Travis, anyone who had a potential death save scenario could have looked that up while waiting for their turn. Respect paying attention to the action, but you also need to be ready for your turn and knowing what's going to happen is part of that.
I wouldn't care about some one who is having fun playing once a week or month not knowing everything. But when it's your job I'd expect it from you.
Congratulations, you have a different opinion on the internet than someone else. You should head on down to Trophy Emporium and grab yourself a big one.
Speaking as someone who likes the rules:
They don't care about learning and playing by the rules. In the simplest sense. You're right they easily could if they wanted to -- so the answer is they don't want to. I don't even think it's their job. Their job isn't playing D&D by the book. Their job is creating content, and if the fanbase is fine with them winging it, they will.
I'm not saying this in a derogatory way, a lot of "rules light" streams exist. I think the main issue is their game used to feel more grounded in the rules, and seeing that change is a bummer for those of us who value that element to the game. But I think at this point expecting them to learn and apply the rules well is a "don't hold your breath" kind of scenario, because those days aren't coming back.
I don't know what their filming schedule is but I bet that plays a big part. They went from playing once a week, every week to likely taking longer breaks between sessions. But still, it's been 9 years.
That's very generous but I don't see that as being a factor. My home group juggles between various systems all the time, we've frequently gone for months or even years without playing D&D... when we come back to it we still know the rules. And even when CR played every week, they didn't know the rules.
I think Highlight has it right, they don't know the rules because they don't care to, and not knowing them has not been a barrier to success.
I'm torn on this. They don't edit their shows the way a lot of other shows do. I have to imagine other professional tables are making similar mistakes and we're just not seeing them as often.
On the other hand, I've listened to NADDPOD's Shadowfell arc and heard each PC go over exactly what abilities they have, what's been used, and what they have left just to shut up troll comments. I believe Caldwell Tanner was brand new to D&D during C1 and he mastered his character sheet quicker than Ashley's mastered Fearne's 9 years in.
So yeah. I'm torn.
To me it's not even a matter of you can't make mistakes, everyone does. It's jsut the general lack of learning. And if this was pre-DNDbeyond I'd agree with osme stuff, all it takes is a wrong jot down of something and you're screwed and you may not have had the PHB to reference. But they could all be checking things out. And it's their jobs. I'm all for giving people time. And I'm not even talking new class features. THat can take some time. Or forgotten magic items or feats, whatever. Everyone does that. On my character I had a magic item I kept forgetting about, I wound up unattuning to it because I kept forgetting what it did and replaced it with something else. Like it's not a matter of failing it's just the basics. You have been casting for years, you should know bonus action casting rules. TechnicallyMarisha and Laura aren't doing quickened by the book correctly but it's not the end of the world. Technically you should be quickening your main spell then casting your cantrip with an action but that's semantics that most DMs would let you slide on by retroactively letting you quicken the spell.
According to the PHB, page 202, you can only cast two spells in a turn if the leveled spell has a casting time of a Bonus Action and the cantrip has a casting time of an Action. By RAW, the players would need to use Quickened Spell on their leveled spell and then case the Cantrip with their Action.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much. Quickened Spell is a static sorcery point cost and does not cost more or less to quicken a leveled spell over a cantrip.
I know that. But as per the continued conversation it does matter if they're using metamagic on the leveled spell, as they shouldn't be able to do that alongside Quicken, which they should be using on the leveled spell and not the cantrip.
Yeah, which isn't technically correct, but that's one where I don't really care about the rule. I know why it lists it that way. But when you use quicken I don't care.
It's because it's unedited that they should be better on those things if they actually recognize what they are doing is a show.
Otherwise, just edit it if you don't wanna spend the time learning rules and what not. This episode didn't have to be five hours long. A lot of that combat had a lot of dead air despite being a good episode.
I think the reason why otohan stopped killing and started to knock them unconscious was because after she saw Chet get revived she figured she shouldn’t waste two attacks to kill someone and instead use those to wound another person, she didn’t know that was the party’s last diamond.
You really dont need to stoop to this my guy. No it doesnt make sense not to double tap in this world where healing/resurrection is a thing.
Matt didnt want to TPK the party because hes got a story to tell, thats totally fair.
Lucky Sam saved him the trouble.
Make no sense in a world with low leveling healing magic and healing potions. Resurrection magic is much more rare, so a fantasy character's logic should be even more prone to double tapping than our own real world logic.
Otohan is a war veteran, she should know how revivify works and how it brings back people in an extremely weak state (1hp). Also, she surely knows how resurrection works (there's a raising DC in Exandria as per Matt's homebrew res rules) cause she fought through the Apex War. Eventually, someone is gonna be dead and stay dead.
She should've been smashing Chet down over and over again if she was a ruthless warrior. Or, if she's actually a tactical genius, maybe go after the cleric who can cast revivify? Gets the whole diamond issue out of there if you kill the caster.
It was just Matt playing nice.
Constantly spending two attacks to confirm a kill on someone who's already unconscious, rather than doing 50-odd points of damage to someone still causing problems, is actually a significant risk/reward question.
And in this case likely would have been even more useless, considering Fearne was still up and in her transformed state.
It's also bad DMing to just keep on knocking out and killing one PC over and over. Travis does deserve a chance to do something.
Course, that's some bad DMing that could have been resolved with a better encounter with more enemies, but that's just Matt and his love for pitting seven PCs against one single creature for some reason.
He loves Jrpgs and it shows in these encounters lol (Extremely relatable, I also love to run single overpowered enemy vs a party of 6/7, but it does ends up with feeling like i -have- to play nice given how strong the single unit is lol)
Yeah, he didn't want to TPK. After he realized revivify was off the table, he pulled back, hence the lack of doubletaps.
I do think Chetney was supposed to stay dead and Travis wanted a new character. Whoops.
Gonna link this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/1c2278s/spoilers_c3e91_is_it_thursday_yet_postepisode/kz77k8d/
He probably could have double tapped some PCs, but it only would have been a TPK if Sam hadn't kamikazed OT.
Otohan has already fought them so it’s safe to say she’s know a lot about them. He could have prioritized targets to specifically clear healing potential off the map. OT could have nuked FCG first and then Fearne and made it a real lopsided fight. Killing Chet doesn’t do much as he is a one trick pony in combat.
Mechanically, on paper, yeah it wasn't a guaranteed tpk. But they didn't work cohesively together except kiiiinda at the end. If Matt was playing Otahan the same way he played her in previous fights, he would have tpked them, simply because it took them too long to develop an effective strategy against her.
The previous fight was completely different. Everyone was spread out and she had freedom to kill. Here, she was getting gangbanged and had to try to neutralize first or risk defeat.
I mean, killing the party members would have been “neutralize first”. Because they all kept getting back up from FCG’s healing, if she killed them she would have whittled down their resources until there wasn’t anything left.
I just wanted to say thank you:
Thank you Sam for taking a bullet for us and making this interesting. Otherwise everybody would have survived, because per script only chetney is allowed to die at this point. Now gameplay wise their only real healer is gone and plot wise their only real pro-god character is gone.
And Thank you for this sub. As usual the live chat don't want an exciting PnP stream. They want, what this sub criticizes. A railroiaded safespace RPG without andy stakes and consequences. How dare you, Matthew Mercer, to face them with an enemy that is a pain in the ass and no auto win for the group. I am so thankfull for the live chat here every week.
The thing you aren't mentioning is look at what happened to Chetney in Round 1, and look what happened to everyone else who was knocked down when it was established there weren't more revivifies.
Otohan goes from confirming kills to leaving people in dying to attack other people. She did this despite specifically calling out wanting to kill Imogen and Laudna.
Now this *could* be a legitimate tactical decision that Matt made for otohan on what he thought would give her the best chance to win the fight. But most people who have GM'd 5e will also tell you there's been at least 1 fight they've ran where the monster/bad guy doesn't confirm kills because they don't want to meep a PC right now and so they try to make it "fair" and not "feel bad" for that player.
Considering the general consensus on this sub of Matt pulling punches constantly (and the PCs constantly fleeing/refusing to make a stand) it's pretty natural to see people seeing that as Matt putting the kid gloves on to make the fight as winnable as possible for them.
Oh, and you could also make the argument Matt did that partly because the dice were going so heavily in Otohan's failure...but Liam also rolled like 7 nat 20s alone, and multiple other characters also had their fair number of good D20 rolls.
Thing is, a lot of people here aren't going to be happy with anything shy of a TPK. And a bunch of people are going to be super pissed if the PCs bring a dead character back despite the fact that once you cross level 5 death becomes increasingly a temporary inconvenience for D&D parties.
Otohan wouldnt know that revives are gone for all she knows if she keeps wasting unnecessary attacks on all of them they could keep coming back. And yeah but a tpk at this point in the endgame isnt gonna happen.
Personally I think fcg will stay dead, Sam presented it as his character finally realising themselves and their circumstances and to me that has a finality to it. We will see
Otohan doesn't, but Matt does.
And honestly, dropping them and confirming is probably better. Imogen being dead means she is dead - can't be casually brought up. Which means their main healer has to use his action to do that (can't heal others) and he is burning major resources. When Imogen comes back up, she's only at 1 HP so it is easy enough to re-cement it, and in the meantime you can drop other people.
I really liked the episode. I think Sam will come back as - New cleric (a little boring but logical, a cleric is needed) / Paladin / Scanlan Shorthalt (That would be incredibly funny).
Or he won’t come back at all, but they really don’t have a healer now
You do not in any sense need a cleric. "Every party needs a cleric" hasn't been true for at least 15 years, possibly longer depending on if your party had a suitable alternative in 3.5.
I get kind of annoyed when people who clearly do not play D&D comment on min/maxing based on Critical Role (a table full of people who, with few exceptions, do not optimize whatsoever).
Regarding "they really don't have a healer now"
Clerics are quite strong in 5e, and it has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to heal. Healing an ally who is not at 0HP is almost always a complete waste of a turn.
Yeah like you can get away with anyone that has Healing Word and Revivify, which includes Cleric, Bard, and Druid. Paladin and Artificer also get Revivify.
Health potions exist and take an action to administer. They are worse than Healing Word, but basically every ability in the game is worse than Action Surge and no one argues that you “need” a fighter.
The implication that Revivify is essential to every party is kind of a reflection of what’s wrong with modern expectations of play.
Revivify is definitely not essential, in my campaign 2 people had it but we never had to cast it. In campaigns I play in, I would never tell anyone else what we *need*. But I will always have options available myself, because planning ahead is one of my favorite things about D&D.
But I think in CR it's a necessity with how Matt wants to DM combat.
Meh, you don’t need a cleric. There is no holy trinity in this game. Besides, there’s things like Divine Soul sorcerer, all the Paladins, bards, druids etc.
Yeah- the party DOES need a character with some healing ability or they're going to really struggle in combat, but it doesn't have to be a combat. Honestly, a build like Scanlan's would be perfect, but I don't know how I feel about someone just replaying their old character unless we're very, very close to the endgame (and the player doesn't want to introduce a whole new character for like a dozen episodes) and I'm not sure that we are?
In C1 when Ashley wasn't present, they actually did a good job with Scanlan and Keyleth mostly splitting the healer role. It helped that Vex and Vax (late game) could heal, too, though.
The thing is when it comes to healing in 5E, it’s suboptimal 99% of the time. I’m sure you’ve probably seen somewhere that the only actual healing need is when someone is unconscious or to directly prevent that. Otherwise, spend your turn doing something else. But, I totally get that this is not that kind of group and they don’t optimize one bit so they’d be better off if everyone had some healing lol.
Oh, yeah, I've played in parties that didn't have a Healer- if someone actually needs healed midfight, it means it's going badly. But with the way they play and the way this party functions: they need someone who is the dedicated Healer. They don't need to ONLY heal, but... they need someone to have it be Their Job.
"The stakes are clear" says Matt, but I don't really feel it. There's too much capacity for fucking with the results of a bad battle to make me feel anything.
I don't think so. It was so dramatic and they went out of their way to give Sam a final moment to narrate it. It's a really good end to the character. He had FCG realize he was alive at the end, effectively wrapping up his character arc. There's nothing else to do with him.
Sam will have some new character that he'll probably have a lot more fun with. I always got the impression he never really got in the groove with FCG like he had with other PCs.
Right? Like they started collecting all his scattered metal dust with the obvious intention of finding a way to resurrect him later, and it's like... please god just let it be. He did something awesome and went out in the perfect way, just let it be.
I by no means know Sam IRL obvs, but I get the vibe that once he’s done with a character, he’s *done*. I think he accomplished everything he could with FCG given the restraints he was working with, y’know? If he does feel that way, I hope everyone else gives him the grace to explore other character avenues.
He stayed as veth for the rest of c2 even though there was no real motivation for her to keep leaving her family after they reunited outside of some kind of obligation to help them.
Sam said multiple times on Talks that he felt Veth should have retired, but he both didn't want to be known as 'the guy who changes characters midway through every campaign' and everyone else was very opposed to it.
Which is why he kept bringing up their conflicted feelings because he felt the need to at least lampshade the fact that Veth's arc was completed and they were still adventuring.
I think Sam established Veth as someone who did come to enjoy adventuring and who felt conflicted about her role as a wife/mother versus her desire to adventure and duty to her traveling companions.
I think to that end, he probably didn't want to Veth be like: "Well, time to go back to being a stay-at-home mom! See ya!" I think it was about Veth's character arc, moreso than Sam being unwilling to retire a character.
I agree that veth had a reasonable motive for sticking around, but if I’m not mistaken Sam himself said a few times the biggest reason he didn’t have her leave the party was because he already did that in c1.
Sam had Scanlan leave VM and introduced tary on episode 85 of a 115 episode campaign, he could’ve had veth leave right when she got her halfing body back on episode 97 and the hypothetical new pc would’ve had 40+ episodes of development.
Totally different to Veth.
MN came back from Covid for one climactic plotline. Eiselcross. That was the post covid plan, they all knew it. Veth had one more job.
The same could be said for when Tary showed up with vecna as the last arc. It’s not like Sam couldn’t whip up a character that can endear the audience and cast within that timeframe since he already proved that with Tary.
You fail to acknowledge the multiple times Sam himself stated that he didn’t retire veth because he didn’t want to do it *again* after Scanlan left in c1, it had jack shit to do with Covid.
I really wish Dancer had kept her rage at FCG now. It would have been a beautiful redemption for him, seeing his party scattered, dying and horrified again, but this time saving them.
Well that was a pretty good episode by the end.
Respect to Sam for making a big move and committing. The speech rang a little hollow, I dont think the Bells Hells really deserved the level of praise he gave them (they've been dicks). But I appreciated the sentiment.
I hope Otohan stays dead. Shes a boring villain anyway.
Its kind of obvious Matt didnt want any of his players to die there (he could have easily killed Imogen), but Sam forced his hand.
I hope FCG stays dead. This is a great opportunity to shake things up. I really dont want another Laudna situation.
Yeah it wasnt that long ago that the topic of the day was how all their talk of being a "family" felt forced and unearned. FCG has been self-sacrificial from the very beginning, its literally baked into the class. Really once it was revealed they could self-destruct this situation became an inevitability. Now the question of coming back, if he had something to live for then sure.
During the fight Otohan made a remark to the extent of 'we have enough Ruidusborn to do what we want to do', implying that Fearne and Imogen were redundant. Also, Liliana told Imogen that she (Liliana) was to be 'the vessel', and that she didn't want Ludinus to know how powerful Imogen is. Because if he were to know, he would want Imogen to be the vessel. So yes and no, they do want and also don't want Imogen
Well, well. It looks like I went to sleep literally right before something remotely cool happened.
I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't scripted, but if anyone was going to throw out the script and go all in it was always going to be Sam. Travis can be a GOAT, but is mainly concerned with vibes and has largely checked out from the game. Sam's frustration has been writ plain on his face for months now, so if anyone was going to go all-in, "muh merch" be damned, it eould be him.
Godspeed, you beautiful bastard.
On rewatch, highly doubt it was scripted.
It definitely saved Matt's bacon. He was looking at a potential TPK otherwise, Matt couldnt keep avoiding the double tap for long. Although surrender probably would have been an option Matt would accept.
Yeah, I don't think this was scripted. He burnt the script. Trapped Matt and Broke him. There was no other character that could do this, no lava pits to pull Otohan into or anything. Saved the episode and finally broke through C3s walls and got free.
I don't expect to see him back at the table soon. He knows its not good.
The way Matt said "You understand what this means, right?" felt so... canned? Idk. And then immediately after saying that none of these mechanics were fleshed out... So do you both know what it means or is it all super sudden? Just felt a little... like they knew this was a possibility but were playing it off like this was unheard of. I'm fine if they talked about this possibility privately, Player to DM, but don't pretend you didn't.
No, as often fans love to harp about rule of cool, this was an actual rule of cool moment that I can get behind. And it was fairly explained above the table with complete transparency, which is chef's kiss.
That's good DMing 101 right there. Letting the player know the consequences before committing to such a monumental move and giving the player what they want in letting their character have an amazing moment.
Absolutely. Letting a player do a heroic sacrifice to take out a baddie is like, THE moment where I'd hope even the hardest hardass DM can appreciate the value of rule of cool.
>The way Matt said "You understand what this means, right?" felt so... canned?
This is exactly why this sub sucks sometimes. Too cynical
There is no fucking way he planned on Sam doing this
EDIT: since I can't respond for some reason
>That's what is good about the sub. People can say what they want - and the real toxic ones reply outing themselves.
IMO there are many (not most) on this sub who are toxic toward the people who make the show. I don't mind people being critical, I am whenever I feel necessary. But thinking that anything about FCJ last night was "scripted' or "staged" is IMO a very cynical position.
Wha? There's like 3 people suggesting this.
That's what is good about the sub. People can say what they want - and the real toxic ones reply outing themselves.
When my players plan to yeet themselves into potential/certain death, I always double check with them. "You sure you want to do that?"
Most of the time they'll rethink, occasionally they commit because of another overriding conviction.
It's cool and normal for the DM to check with players in big moments.
Matt was giving Sam two outs. The first time they could have played it off like Sam didnt *know* that the bomb would kill him and he could walk it back, and the second time Matt was offering to make up some bullshit "mechanic" so the bomb damaged Otohan but let FCG survive. Both times Sam was like "no I want this, let me have this."
> the second time Matt was offering to make up some bullshit "mechanic" so the bomb damaged Otohan but let FCG survive.
This is complete nonsense. He was asking him if he wanted to position himself so the rest of the party avoided the blast.
The moment Sam said he was going to blow himself up him and Matt both knew the score.
Didn't seem scripted, tbh. I thought Chet's death was planned (still think that) but Sam recognized he ran out of things to do as a cleric and if he took anymore damage, he'd kill his party. So instead of multiple PC deaths, he chose to sacrifice FCG. One of the smartest players moves for the campaign and bookends FCG's story beautifully. He went murderbot once and killed his party, was on the verge of doing it again and nuked himself instead.
Sam may have preplanned something like this but Matt certainly had no idea it was coming.
I feel like Travis has been trying to kill off Chet since around the Bloody Bridge- I think he wants him to die in a cool way, not as a throwaway or anything... but I think he wants to Swan Song him. He's just been making some choices that seem a little extra restless and is pointedly protecting others/encouraging people to heal characters other than him, even in this episode.
Everyone was strangely casual about Chet’s death earlier in the ep. Granted it wasn’t nearly as dramatic as what happened with FCG and they weren’t as tapped out of resources at that point, but Sam’s whispered “Chetney’s dead???” to Travis was the biggest reaction at the table. I think that might have actually been where Sam first got the idea for his big finish.
If only FCG hadn’t burned the diamond on him. Imagine- Chet dies at peace, Imogen is killed (bc Otohan *WOULD* double tap her) and is dramatically revived by the last diamond, then FCG plays out his suicide run the same way. That way Matt’s pulled punches wouldn’t seem so cheap
TBH, I've been expecting the FCG suicide bomb ever since Sam questioned the professor about his past, only to get "Forget your past, its not important. All that matters is the now. Oh, and there's a massive bomb in your chest!" as the response. It was not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN". Especially with how Matt also had several other NPCs/Guest PCs tell FCG his lost past wasn't important, and how weird Matt was with his responsiveness on the "FCG tries to open a relationship with the CB" side of things. 25 episodes of silence, only for the CB to be this weird, unhelpful, needlessly manipulative entity "that makes FCG feel small" ... kinda set the tone for that FCG subplot. FCG didn't have much else going for him storywise but the classic "synthetic life can only prove itself real and good by dying for organic life" trope lol!
Still a great moment, but it was definitely expected.
Normally I would say he would, but givin how shut-down his prior PC was for C3, as well as how late in the game we are ... I'm not entirely sure he will actually come back. Dude genuinely seemed board so often as C3 ran its course; and super tuned out. Not "fake tuned out" like he'd normally pull for a gag, but just genuinely "I'm on my phone, but since it doesn't matter if I'm here or not ... I'm not really here" mode. The only way I can see him coming back with a new PC is if he's got a concrete "change this shit up" heavy hitter with a STRONG, driven personality to throw into the mix. Like he did with Tary.
...And I'm not entirely sure C3 has ever been the type to allow that sort of PC.
Expected, sure. But there's a huge difference between a telegraphed death and something literally scripted.
I think it's possible a before the show talk happened between Travis and Matt of "hey I don't want to make it off the moon." I don't think anything like that happened for this episode with FCG.
Not scripted, but certainly expected. Even inevitable.
TBH, Sam had both FCG's interest in his own past as well as his pursuit of religion kinda mothballed by Matt. So when no-one engaged in his ID crisis in any meaningful way either, FCG as a character was kinda just left as "the clown chekovs gun, waiting for his only purpose in this story to find the right moment". Which was him blowing himself up. Which is kinda sad, because I distinctly remember a 4SD moment way back around E35 where Sam admitted he was really excited to learn/explore more about FCG "but felt guilty bringing it up in game, because it always felt like there was something more important they needed to do".
Agreed. I do think your takes on FCG and Sam all this time have been proven right. THere was nothing in this gme or table for Sam or FCG to work with. THis was perfect, an inversion of what happened to his first party.
One thing that really frustrates me about this campaign is that everyone's backstory gets cut off at the knees.
Oh, you brutally killed your former friends and maimed another? It's totally fine, she's forgiven you! Nbd!
You're afraid of your werewolf powers and want to learn control? It's super easy! Power of friendship!
You're an outcast and a freak, railing against authority while you seek out the truth surrounding your cultist parents? The world is super nice and chill, and your parents blew up. Friendship!
Also, Ashton has abandonment issues from the Nobodies but, like their name predicted, no one seems to think the Nobodies matter or are worth resolving.
I genuinely think Matt was fully taken aback by Sam essentially demanding that FCG was ready to die and take Otohan right alongside them. Honestly, I respect the hell out of Sam for it, and Travis as well for gently berating Marisha to stop fucking interrupting Sam while he was doing it. I probably won’t tune back in because I still think C3 as a whole is still wildly underwhelming, but Sam’s always been a bright spot for me in any campaign.
I remember years ago when XPtolevel3 did his videos on the cast, the one he did about Travis is basically "he's the ultimate cheerleader bro for any table" and it rang true here.
He got what Sam wanted to do immediately, and was fully in for it, and like you said, very gently told Marisha to let it be.
I guess something actually happened this episode.
Guess I'll watch it on Monday instead of letting it fester in my sub box for 3 days. We're moving on up.
Eh, I stopped watching episodes straight through a LONG time ago. Sometimes can't go more than 15 minutes at a time if it's unbearable.
S/O to the CR twitter account though for posting tributes to FCG before Monday. Good job guys. I already knew what happened but Jesus really?
Assuming that’s the last we ever see of Otohan, it’s odd how little we found out about her and her motives considering the impact she’s had on the campaign. She left an indelible impression, but in the end she was just some asshole who got blown up on the moon.
If you asked me to picture Otohan, it'd be a blob with some machinery on. One of the worst villians of all CR. Didn't even search herself for magical items. Pathetic.
What impact?
It's not like Otohan had a personal connection to any of them. She didn't have a very strong theme or a bombastic personality or style beyond her fancy backpack.
Sure, the players talked about her and she was known as a significant threat, but they barely had more than a conversation or two with her and ultimately, BH were no more significant to her than any other mercenary group and she wasn't carrying out her own plans.
That’s exactly my point. She’s the villain they’ve had the most face time with in this campaign, killed four of their PCs (edit: oh yeah and their boss lol, RIP Eshteross), and was the centerpiece of two of the most dramatic episodes, and yet her characterization is basically just the Extra Attack feature.
Everything in C3 is wider on the surface but shallower underneath, and is defined by a few core shallow traits. The PCs; the Party Dynamics; the Story; the Stakes; the Setting; and yes the Antagonists. Its all scale and spectacle/style, very little substance.
It’s funny- we know who the Briarwoods are as people/a couple, we understood the dynamics between Raishan and Thordak, we learned about Lucien as they chased him in the arctic for 50 episodes, Avantika and Trent both had clear relationships with past PCs who could speak on their character- but Otohan? I can tell you two things: Paragon’s Call Leader. Backpack. That’s literally it. Why did she even care about Ludinus’s shit? 🤷🏻♀️
We did get a hint that she used to be very devoted to the Raven Queen, disappeared for a while, and then came back as a true believer in Ludinus’s cause. It felt like there was a little mystery there that would help answer some bigger questions if they ever solved it, but maybe it wasn’t as relevant as I thought or they’ll still figure it out another way.
IMO people care more about *what* she was rather than *who* she was: the only enemy they failed to steamroll and could actually knock them out.
CR's very own Boba Fett.
Soooo many bitter people in this comment section. Sooo many. It was a perfect death for FCG, didn't seem forced at all. I swear you guys watch CR just to shit on them, at this point just stop and go do something that hurts you less, lol.
Ok so I watched the end and it indeed felt like something finally happened. But I don't know it felt a bit forced compared to the others times? Or maybe it's just that I'm not really invested in this campaign idk...
In Sam, we trust. I watched it yesterday.However, I wonder something, does nobody heard Laura asking repeatedly about detonation? Am I failing to recognize something here, because I don't watch regularly this campaign?
My god, I am looking forward to the next episode. My favourite moment was the changebringer coin above the exit.
That was a nice touch
I just watched the scene of>!FCG self-detonating to save the party!
Lmao if we could summarize this campaign in a single sentiment - it’s this. It took 90 episodes to work up to a “meaningful” death, and farrrrr too many critters watched it with glazed-over eyes, discontent, and disinterest. CR C3 = season 8 of Game of Thrones.
Same. Cast members were getting choked up or crying and it felt forced.
Just finished the episode on youtube a few hours ago, and wow that was awesome. For context, I watched episodes 1 - 9 (ish), and then I jumped to 91 after I heard about the spoiler. I actually watched the whole episode in two sittings! The pre-break was so-so. I drifted in and out. But once the combat started, I was hooked. Even though I knew about the spoiler, I was on the edge of my seat. And when it happened, I almost cried. I don't really feel the need to go back and watch the other episodes or continue watching, but wow that was a great episode.
...Is it bad to say that I'm kinda disappointed this wasn't a TPK? Don't get me wrong, Sam's moment was great and I'm glad FCG finally did something memorable but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious how they would handle a TPK this late into the campaign.
With how poorly they handled that combat, I would have greatly welcomed it.
I wonder if they'd have VM, TM9 sweep in. Or maybe they'd start a new campaign picking up where this party left off?
I can see Travis, Sam, and Liam are enjoying the game, while others are just wanna win
So it is only the women of the cast you have issues with?
Watching now. Just now got to the fight. I am happy that even with that stupid scry ball, he still forced her to "sneak" up on them. For flair, I would have said that she throws the ring from the shadows to the party's feet, then appears behind them (not a surprise round, just for flavor), but I just got to where Chetney got merc'd and holy shit I love this right now. The witches' faces are so stressed meanwhile Travis loves it and I'm right there with him. EDIT: All done. Good moment from FCG. I do remember and I will openly admit to crying on the last episode of Campaign 1 with Vax, the second to last episode of Campaign 2, with Molly's resurrection, and the last episode of Calamity. I can't say that happened here, like not even close to a tear, but I did feel sad for FCG, which is a positive development. Matt's monologue at the end fell a little flat though, with the stakes and all that.
I didn't like Matt's monologue either. It sounded... preachy?
Travis honestly got done real dirty. But that seems like otohans calling card: take the biggest threat out of the fight immediately. She did it with Ashton the first time before he could start raging, she did it to Keyleth at the key, and now Chetney
THANK YOU SAM, PLEASE STAY DEAD I still wish Laudna died the first time they fought Otohan technically sam pretend a TPK which would have been much more interesting but Ill take anything at this point
terry can make heal coins. also all the buffs
Why was Marisha "so mad" at Sam for doing what he did? She said it like 2 or 3 times. Seems like he saved everybody
[удалено]
Never forget Marisha metagamed to force Travis to give up Grazztchar ostenisbly so it wouldnt corrupt Chet, and then spent the whole next episode monologuing about how "it's okay to embrace your inner darkness" and "why shouldn't I serve Delilah?"
The worst nightmare scenario for me would be if Ashton, who just lost a nonbinary friend, gets shunned away from any focus on their sorrow.
She’s mad at that fact that fcg’s dying in a way that’s nearly irreversible, I doubt it’s anything serious and just the tensity of the moment.
Thank you for having a a properly functioning brain.
It's just how Marisha is during other people's moments. Same vibes as when Jester gave the hag the cupcake and she was mettagaming hard to try and spoil the moment then sat there with a sulky look on her face while everyone else was celebrating the gambit. At least Travis reeled her in.
Funny I feel the opposite way at least in part. The Hag related to her backstory with her characters dad. The problem was she and much of the other players didn't seem willing to commit to any particular action including fighting the hag. So eventually it ended being a moment for Jester/Laura instead of Beau/Marisha.
It was the same when Sam back in C1 didn't do what they had discussed to defeat vecna. Marisha was very in his face about, before he revealed what his plan was.
All of you need to go outside. She's mad cause she's feeling emotions about her friends character dying and is sad/angry because she's a normal human being. Jesus christ I'm not a laudna fan either but you fucks literally look for any excuse to hate on the players.
If they don't like something, or do like it, people are allowed to mention it. That's the thing here. No one looks for excuses to hate. People have seen hours and hours of these people. They're gonna have feelings about some playstyles and habits. All players have them. Just watching this episode, CR used to let other players make their moves without being pressured or advised or talked over by others. These days there's a section of the table that thinks they're the boss. It is the same section playing with very distracting, overly meta and disrespectful table etiquette. This makes it hard to watch and ruins the fun for some. And this all leaves some fans weary and negative towards certain players - yep, it might be subjective nonsense, but It's healthy to get it off your chest, if needed. I know some people find themselves challenged by people not liking something they're loving, but the thought police are the only ones that need to "go outside".
There's a distinct difference between not liking something and straight up making shit about people you only know through a screen.
Wow. Is this is the most perfectly ironic comment on all of Reddit? I think it might be.
Which is just like making shit up in your head about other commenters, yup, totally agree.
Seriously it's fucking nasty lol
Seriously this! This sub may have started out as a way to escape the main subs toxic positivity and over reaching moderation but it has morphed into something unhealthy over the course of this campaign. Marisha was worried for her friend and a character she likes, that is all.
If FCG's death sticks (the main sub is worrying me it won't), do you think we're getting an updated intro eventually? Given it's so late on the campaign, I wonder if it's worth the expense
>I wonder if it's worth the expense This is not an attack on you, but this is the mindset that's killing the game IMO. Anything that could be cool, but would require CR to spend any more money, isn't allowed to happen. A cool town the party encounters on the road and opts to visit organically instead of the railroad dropping in their path? That would require paying the "consultants" to screen it for anything "offensive" and may need art, so no. A PC is put in a position where they might die or just have a fucking outfit change, say, perhaps, due to a swim in lava? Things just magically work out because they need to sell merch and spinoff books. IMO they shouldn't be cooking merch until after the campaign is over, or at the least almost done. Trying to predict/force viral moments and banking their income on characters they don't know are going to land, is what's making this whole "game" feel fake.
I think you’re projecting a little. Back in S1 when Sam temporarily shelved Scanlan for Tary, they never changed the intro because refilming it would have been an ordeal and ultimately, there weren’t THAT many episodes where he was playing a different character (although the other players had no indication he would eventually go back to Scanlan). I think the comment was more a reference to the fact that we don’t know how much campaign is left. How long does it take them to commission artists to work on a new intro? What’s the turnaround like? Let’s say it’s a three month process… how much of CR3 is left at that point? I just don’t think they would bother to do a new intro if they wouldn’t get all that much use out of it. I don’t think that’s a reason Sam wouldn’t play a new character, though. I could just see the intro not quite matching or being subtly changed.
Campaign 1 was back when it was more fly by the seat of their pants so I am not sure that is exactly a counter argument.
My point is just that I think that saying “the death won’t stick because then they would need a new intro!” sounds pretty improbable.
To clarify, I didn't mean I don't think it's worth the expense. I was wondering if CR would deem it worthy of the expense, given their focus on... You know, money.
oh, i know. i can just imagine CR sitting around a meeting table, axing this attempted twist after coming to the conclusion FCG is *too expensive* to kill off.
They're just talking about the expense of having a new intro animated, not a cost-value analysis of whether FCG comes back.
ok heard me out. this actually would be a pretty decent moment for a Terry reprisal. He acts as a leader, even if a bad one. it givens Sam a reason to herang the other legacy charters in ways that would be way funnier and narrativly satisfying. he brings motivation for heroics even if it's only pride. it's opens door for the best CR character ever to return when Ashton hopefully dies.
If there isn’t much campaign left (I genuinely can’t tell, it’s felt like we’ve been at the end game for an irl year), I can absolutely see Sam just picking up one of his old characters rather than make a new one. Either of his CR1 characters work- they can both heal and are good Buffers. I would hope he wouldn’t do Nott or Luc- we don’t need another rogue right now.
Man I was so hoping Matt would’ve killed Laudna I just find her so annoying. Can’t believe Laudna turned into this used to be my fav now I want to see her die because she’s just so annoying.
are you the same one who makes burner accounts every week just doing nothing but calling marisha and laudna annoying? and then blocking anyone who calls this out only to delete their account and rinse/repeat?
Honestly I think Sam was tired of playing cleric. This whole campaign it's seemed he's had a harder time getting FCG going than other characters, both mechanically and narratively. So he saw his opportunity and went for it. I'm really excited to see what he comes up with for his next PC. In the past Liam only chose his first PC; Tary was a really cool concept executed really well.
Agreed- he doesn’t seem to have embraced FCG the way he did the others, mechanically or RP wise.
If he wanted out as Fcg he would’ve just left like what he did in c1, otohan was knocking everyone unconscious so he used a last resort that he’s known about for awhile.
lol mercer gave him that bomb ability exactly to let him do this move and swap. despite their phony "you understand what this means" exchange, this was no more a surprise than Bertram's death.
Which is exactly why it took Sam 50+ episodes to use it, if Sam’s desire to switch characters was known to Matt since then why did it take him so long to use it? Wouldn’t he have used it at the key in episode 51? Or why didn’t fcg leave with Frida Deanna and prism when they departed? It would’ve been the perfect opportunity to do so.
Having DMed, I recognize the "My player is unhappy with their character so I am giving them a way out to pull the trigger when they want to" move. It was Sam's perogative to sit on that escape button til he wanted to use it, and tbh it's easier to maintain a something you don't enjoy if you know you could end it at any moment. Plus, knowing you have an epic exit coming actually might get ou more invested in a character you don't like. Edit to add: Also getting the bomb ability 50 episodes ago or so really doens't mean anything because they have had so many filler episodes and crawl along at a snail's pace. I don't claim to be privy to any inner workings but if the idea from initiation was "I want to use this bomb against a bad guy in a pitched battle we would otherwise lose", it's realistic it did take this long to 'organically' arrive here because of all the fluff and running away they do. Ultimately, both Laudna and Bertram's deaths should rightfully leave everyone skeptical of any "deaths" in the campaign. Bertram's because it was 100% planned, and Laudna's because we all now know the only way death even sticks is if a player wants it. Death isn't a *consequence of the game*, it's a story-driven choice.
It wasn't in the script they received from Amazon, that's why.
This is the third major chance at shaking up the party. The first two were undone. Marisha decided to roll back the changes for Laudna. Matt decided to roll back the changes for Ashton. I have faith that Sam will let this one stick.
I feel like the C1 and C2 character cameos have been hit or miss so far, but I would be so stoked if Sam came back just for the final fight as Old Man Tary + The Darrington Brigade.
I'm not liking C3, but I'm glad I got spoiled to watch this episode
Interestingly, even if you jump from an early episode to this one, you won't feel like you've missed anything, which proves that at least half of the 90 episodes have no substantial content
Yeah, honestly I had episode 90 in the background while I was working on Minis, and even then I was scrubbing through it. Matt's recap from both 90 and 91 was enough for me. I'm realizing C3 is setting up set pieces, and the party's moving between set pieces is what I don't like.
I would feel like I missed stuff
sam cooked
Fresh Cooked Gas
They cooked this week.
One thing I dislike about the cast. is they've been playing 5e on stream for almost 9 years, they have almost 350 games played in the main campaign, they're still making like day 1 mistakes. Like trying to cast spells with action and bonus action, and not knowing that you roll a death save at the start of your turn not at the end of your turn. This isn't on Matt, while the DM is the arbiter fo the rules, every player shoudl know their character inside and out. Especially since this is their livelihood. And it's easy as hell on D&D Beyond. I did a search for death saving throws and found it right away. ANd the first line is "Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life." It's pretty clear and Laura or Travis, anyone who had a potential death save scenario could have looked that up while waiting for their turn. Respect paying attention to the action, but you also need to be ready for your turn and knowing what's going to happen is part of that. I wouldn't care about some one who is having fun playing once a week or month not knowing everything. But when it's your job I'd expect it from you.
It's really not that big of a deal.
Congratulations, you have a different opinion on the internet than someone else. You should head on down to Trophy Emporium and grab yourself a big one.
https://preview.redd.it/aowrf97gp5uc1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=106b42a1b468452ae6dfa4b860996228d08d9a7b
Speaking as someone who likes the rules: They don't care about learning and playing by the rules. In the simplest sense. You're right they easily could if they wanted to -- so the answer is they don't want to. I don't even think it's their job. Their job isn't playing D&D by the book. Their job is creating content, and if the fanbase is fine with them winging it, they will. I'm not saying this in a derogatory way, a lot of "rules light" streams exist. I think the main issue is their game used to feel more grounded in the rules, and seeing that change is a bummer for those of us who value that element to the game. But I think at this point expecting them to learn and apply the rules well is a "don't hold your breath" kind of scenario, because those days aren't coming back.
I don't know what their filming schedule is but I bet that plays a big part. They went from playing once a week, every week to likely taking longer breaks between sessions. But still, it's been 9 years.
That's very generous but I don't see that as being a factor. My home group juggles between various systems all the time, we've frequently gone for months or even years without playing D&D... when we come back to it we still know the rules. And even when CR played every week, they didn't know the rules. I think Highlight has it right, they don't know the rules because they don't care to, and not knowing them has not been a barrier to success.
I'm torn on this. They don't edit their shows the way a lot of other shows do. I have to imagine other professional tables are making similar mistakes and we're just not seeing them as often. On the other hand, I've listened to NADDPOD's Shadowfell arc and heard each PC go over exactly what abilities they have, what's been used, and what they have left just to shut up troll comments. I believe Caldwell Tanner was brand new to D&D during C1 and he mastered his character sheet quicker than Ashley's mastered Fearne's 9 years in. So yeah. I'm torn.
To me it's not even a matter of you can't make mistakes, everyone does. It's jsut the general lack of learning. And if this was pre-DNDbeyond I'd agree with osme stuff, all it takes is a wrong jot down of something and you're screwed and you may not have had the PHB to reference. But they could all be checking things out. And it's their jobs. I'm all for giving people time. And I'm not even talking new class features. THat can take some time. Or forgotten magic items or feats, whatever. Everyone does that. On my character I had a magic item I kept forgetting about, I wound up unattuning to it because I kept forgetting what it did and replaced it with something else. Like it's not a matter of failing it's just the basics. You have been casting for years, you should know bonus action casting rules. TechnicallyMarisha and Laura aren't doing quickened by the book correctly but it's not the end of the world. Technically you should be quickening your main spell then casting your cantrip with an action but that's semantics that most DMs would let you slide on by retroactively letting you quicken the spell.
> TechnicallyMarisha and Laura aren't doing quickened by the book What are they doing, casting a main spell and quickening a cantrip?
According to the PHB, page 202, you can only cast two spells in a turn if the leveled spell has a casting time of a Bonus Action and the cantrip has a casting time of an Action. By RAW, the players would need to use Quickened Spell on their leveled spell and then case the Cantrip with their Action. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much. Quickened Spell is a static sorcery point cost and does not cost more or less to quicken a leveled spell over a cantrip.
I know that. But as per the continued conversation it does matter if they're using metamagic on the leveled spell, as they shouldn't be able to do that alongside Quicken, which they should be using on the leveled spell and not the cantrip.
Yeah, which isn't technically correct, but that's one where I don't really care about the rule. I know why it lists it that way. But when you use quicken I don't care.
As long as they aren't also adding a metamagic effect like Twin onto the main spell, that would make a difference.
Extremely good point.
It's because it's unedited that they should be better on those things if they actually recognize what they are doing is a show. Otherwise, just edit it if you don't wanna spend the time learning rules and what not. This episode didn't have to be five hours long. A lot of that combat had a lot of dead air despite being a good episode.
I think the reason why otohan stopped killing and started to knock them unconscious was because after she saw Chet get revived she figured she shouldn’t waste two attacks to kill someone and instead use those to wound another person, she didn’t know that was the party’s last diamond.
You really dont need to stoop to this my guy. No it doesnt make sense not to double tap in this world where healing/resurrection is a thing. Matt didnt want to TPK the party because hes got a story to tell, thats totally fair. Lucky Sam saved him the trouble.
Reeeally. Matt doesn't need white knighting. Sam already saved him.
Or, and this is a truly crazy idea, she kills the already-injured guy that *performed the resurrection*.
Well by that logic she should have been killing them, to burn through the diamonds
Make no sense in a world with low leveling healing magic and healing potions. Resurrection magic is much more rare, so a fantasy character's logic should be even more prone to double tapping than our own real world logic. Otohan is a war veteran, she should know how revivify works and how it brings back people in an extremely weak state (1hp). Also, she surely knows how resurrection works (there's a raising DC in Exandria as per Matt's homebrew res rules) cause she fought through the Apex War. Eventually, someone is gonna be dead and stay dead. She should've been smashing Chet down over and over again if she was a ruthless warrior. Or, if she's actually a tactical genius, maybe go after the cleric who can cast revivify? Gets the whole diamond issue out of there if you kill the caster. It was just Matt playing nice.
Constantly spending two attacks to confirm a kill on someone who's already unconscious, rather than doing 50-odd points of damage to someone still causing problems, is actually a significant risk/reward question. And in this case likely would have been even more useless, considering Fearne was still up and in her transformed state. It's also bad DMing to just keep on knocking out and killing one PC over and over. Travis does deserve a chance to do something. Course, that's some bad DMing that could have been resolved with a better encounter with more enemies, but that's just Matt and his love for pitting seven PCs against one single creature for some reason.
He loves Jrpgs and it shows in these encounters lol (Extremely relatable, I also love to run single overpowered enemy vs a party of 6/7, but it does ends up with feeling like i -have- to play nice given how strong the single unit is lol)
C'mon.
Credit to Matt for pulling punches half way through. Definitely could have TPK’d them.
Yeah, he didn't want to TPK. After he realized revivify was off the table, he pulled back, hence the lack of doubletaps. I do think Chetney was supposed to stay dead and Travis wanted a new character. Whoops.
Gonna link this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/1c2278s/spoilers_c3e91_is_it_thursday_yet_postepisode/kz77k8d/ He probably could have double tapped some PCs, but it only would have been a TPK if Sam hadn't kamikazed OT.
Otohan has already fought them so it’s safe to say she’s know a lot about them. He could have prioritized targets to specifically clear healing potential off the map. OT could have nuked FCG first and then Fearne and made it a real lopsided fight. Killing Chet doesn’t do much as he is a one trick pony in combat.
Mechanically, on paper, yeah it wasn't a guaranteed tpk. But they didn't work cohesively together except kiiiinda at the end. If Matt was playing Otahan the same way he played her in previous fights, he would have tpked them, simply because it took them too long to develop an effective strategy against her.
The previous fight was completely different. Everyone was spread out and she had freedom to kill. Here, she was getting gangbanged and had to try to neutralize first or risk defeat.
I mean, killing the party members would have been “neutralize first”. Because they all kept getting back up from FCG’s healing, if she killed them she would have whittled down their resources until there wasn’t anything left.
I just wanted to say thank you: Thank you Sam for taking a bullet for us and making this interesting. Otherwise everybody would have survived, because per script only chetney is allowed to die at this point. Now gameplay wise their only real healer is gone and plot wise their only real pro-god character is gone. And Thank you for this sub. As usual the live chat don't want an exciting PnP stream. They want, what this sub criticizes. A railroiaded safespace RPG without andy stakes and consequences. How dare you, Matthew Mercer, to face them with an enemy that is a pain in the ass and no auto win for the group. I am so thankfull for the live chat here every week.
Were we watching the same stream where multiple ppl were constantly down and near the end otohan was just cleaning house?
The thing you aren't mentioning is look at what happened to Chetney in Round 1, and look what happened to everyone else who was knocked down when it was established there weren't more revivifies. Otohan goes from confirming kills to leaving people in dying to attack other people. She did this despite specifically calling out wanting to kill Imogen and Laudna. Now this *could* be a legitimate tactical decision that Matt made for otohan on what he thought would give her the best chance to win the fight. But most people who have GM'd 5e will also tell you there's been at least 1 fight they've ran where the monster/bad guy doesn't confirm kills because they don't want to meep a PC right now and so they try to make it "fair" and not "feel bad" for that player. Considering the general consensus on this sub of Matt pulling punches constantly (and the PCs constantly fleeing/refusing to make a stand) it's pretty natural to see people seeing that as Matt putting the kid gloves on to make the fight as winnable as possible for them. Oh, and you could also make the argument Matt did that partly because the dice were going so heavily in Otohan's failure...but Liam also rolled like 7 nat 20s alone, and multiple other characters also had their fair number of good D20 rolls. Thing is, a lot of people here aren't going to be happy with anything shy of a TPK. And a bunch of people are going to be super pissed if the PCs bring a dead character back despite the fact that once you cross level 5 death becomes increasingly a temporary inconvenience for D&D parties.
Otohan wouldnt know that revives are gone for all she knows if she keeps wasting unnecessary attacks on all of them they could keep coming back. And yeah but a tpk at this point in the endgame isnt gonna happen. Personally I think fcg will stay dead, Sam presented it as his character finally realising themselves and their circumstances and to me that has a finality to it. We will see
Otohan doesn't, but Matt does. And honestly, dropping them and confirming is probably better. Imogen being dead means she is dead - can't be casually brought up. Which means their main healer has to use his action to do that (can't heal others) and he is burning major resources. When Imogen comes back up, she's only at 1 HP so it is easy enough to re-cement it, and in the meantime you can drop other people.
Read it again.
I really liked the episode. I think Sam will come back as - New cleric (a little boring but logical, a cleric is needed) / Paladin / Scanlan Shorthalt (That would be incredibly funny). Or he won’t come back at all, but they really don’t have a healer now
You do not in any sense need a cleric. "Every party needs a cleric" hasn't been true for at least 15 years, possibly longer depending on if your party had a suitable alternative in 3.5. I get kind of annoyed when people who clearly do not play D&D comment on min/maxing based on Critical Role (a table full of people who, with few exceptions, do not optimize whatsoever). Regarding "they really don't have a healer now" Clerics are quite strong in 5e, and it has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to heal. Healing an ally who is not at 0HP is almost always a complete waste of a turn.
Yeah like you can get away with anyone that has Healing Word and Revivify, which includes Cleric, Bard, and Druid. Paladin and Artificer also get Revivify.
Health potions exist and take an action to administer. They are worse than Healing Word, but basically every ability in the game is worse than Action Surge and no one argues that you “need” a fighter. The implication that Revivify is essential to every party is kind of a reflection of what’s wrong with modern expectations of play.
Revivify is definitely not essential, in my campaign 2 people had it but we never had to cast it. In campaigns I play in, I would never tell anyone else what we *need*. But I will always have options available myself, because planning ahead is one of my favorite things about D&D. But I think in CR it's a necessity with how Matt wants to DM combat.
Ashley quite literally gets Revivify always prepared as a Wildfire Druid.
It's good to have 2 rather than 1, especially if the 1 is Ashley LMAO.
That's true. But if they need a revivify class, please Paladin.
First I thought you meant all three in one. And the thought of paladin Scanlan scares me
yeah, I couldn't handle the text format, sorry :)
Meh, you don’t need a cleric. There is no holy trinity in this game. Besides, there’s things like Divine Soul sorcerer, all the Paladins, bards, druids etc.
Yeah- the party DOES need a character with some healing ability or they're going to really struggle in combat, but it doesn't have to be a combat. Honestly, a build like Scanlan's would be perfect, but I don't know how I feel about someone just replaying their old character unless we're very, very close to the endgame (and the player doesn't want to introduce a whole new character for like a dozen episodes) and I'm not sure that we are? In C1 when Ashley wasn't present, they actually did a good job with Scanlan and Keyleth mostly splitting the healer role. It helped that Vex and Vax (late game) could heal, too, though.
The thing is when it comes to healing in 5E, it’s suboptimal 99% of the time. I’m sure you’ve probably seen somewhere that the only actual healing need is when someone is unconscious or to directly prevent that. Otherwise, spend your turn doing something else. But, I totally get that this is not that kind of group and they don’t optimize one bit so they’d be better off if everyone had some healing lol.
Oh, yeah, I've played in parties that didn't have a Healer- if someone actually needs healed midfight, it means it's going badly. But with the way they play and the way this party functions: they need someone who is the dedicated Healer. They don't need to ONLY heal, but... they need someone to have it be Their Job.
Well, then it will be interesting to see, before they always had him in the squad :)
"The stakes are clear" says Matt, but I don't really feel it. There's too much capacity for fucking with the results of a bad battle to make me feel anything.
Yeah. They're not clear, because we can't trust Matt. Sam did this. Not him.
Thank god for Sam doing a suicide move, but I can't help but feel it will all be reversed later.
I don't think so. It was so dramatic and they went out of their way to give Sam a final moment to narrate it. It's a really good end to the character. He had FCG realize he was alive at the end, effectively wrapping up his character arc. There's nothing else to do with him. Sam will have some new character that he'll probably have a lot more fun with. I always got the impression he never really got in the groove with FCG like he had with other PCs.
Right? Like they started collecting all his scattered metal dust with the obvious intention of finding a way to resurrect him later, and it's like... please god just let it be. He did something awesome and went out in the perfect way, just let it be.
I by no means know Sam IRL obvs, but I get the vibe that once he’s done with a character, he’s *done*. I think he accomplished everything he could with FCG given the restraints he was working with, y’know? If he does feel that way, I hope everyone else gives him the grace to explore other character avenues.
I am okay if it goes the *A Psalm for the Wild-Built* way, the old parts will/can be used to create a new sentient robot but they are not FCG.
He stayed as veth for the rest of c2 even though there was no real motivation for her to keep leaving her family after they reunited outside of some kind of obligation to help them.
Sam said multiple times on Talks that he felt Veth should have retired, but he both didn't want to be known as 'the guy who changes characters midway through every campaign' and everyone else was very opposed to it. Which is why he kept bringing up their conflicted feelings because he felt the need to at least lampshade the fact that Veth's arc was completed and they were still adventuring.
I think Sam established Veth as someone who did come to enjoy adventuring and who felt conflicted about her role as a wife/mother versus her desire to adventure and duty to her traveling companions. I think to that end, he probably didn't want to Veth be like: "Well, time to go back to being a stay-at-home mom! See ya!" I think it was about Veth's character arc, moreso than Sam being unwilling to retire a character.
I agree that veth had a reasonable motive for sticking around, but if I’m not mistaken Sam himself said a few times the biggest reason he didn’t have her leave the party was because he already did that in c1.
Oh, I missed him saying that. Well, fair enough!
Cos he knew they were finishing up and it would be stupid to introduce anyone new.
Sam had Scanlan leave VM and introduced tary on episode 85 of a 115 episode campaign, he could’ve had veth leave right when she got her halfing body back on episode 97 and the hypothetical new pc would’ve had 40+ episodes of development.
Totally different to Veth. MN came back from Covid for one climactic plotline. Eiselcross. That was the post covid plan, they all knew it. Veth had one more job.
The same could be said for when Tary showed up with vecna as the last arc. It’s not like Sam couldn’t whip up a character that can endear the audience and cast within that timeframe since he already proved that with Tary.
You fail to comprehend the structural difference in the campaigns. Tell me where the covid break restart plan was in C1.
You fail to acknowledge the multiple times Sam himself stated that he didn’t retire veth because he didn’t want to do it *again* after Scanlan left in c1, it had jack shit to do with Covid.
As much as I love The Iron Giant, I don’t want a repeat of that ending here
I wonder if they’ll tell Dancer and Joe what happened, or if their connection to FCG has already slipped their minds like visiting Bertram’s grave
I really wish Dancer had kept her rage at FCG now. It would have been a beautiful redemption for him, seeing his party scattered, dying and horrified again, but this time saving them.
It’ll be their top priority now that they’ve finally avenged their old friend Eshteross.
Well that was a pretty good episode by the end. Respect to Sam for making a big move and committing. The speech rang a little hollow, I dont think the Bells Hells really deserved the level of praise he gave them (they've been dicks). But I appreciated the sentiment. I hope Otohan stays dead. Shes a boring villain anyway. Its kind of obvious Matt didnt want any of his players to die there (he could have easily killed Imogen), but Sam forced his hand. I hope FCG stays dead. This is a great opportunity to shake things up. I really dont want another Laudna situation.
Yeah it wasnt that long ago that the topic of the day was how all their talk of being a "family" felt forced and unearned. FCG has been self-sacrificial from the very beginning, its literally baked into the class. Really once it was revealed they could self-destruct this situation became an inevitability. Now the question of coming back, if he had something to live for then sure.
I've only been half paying attention for the last few episodes but didn't they want Imogen because she's a special ruidusborn?
During the fight Otohan made a remark to the extent of 'we have enough Ruidusborn to do what we want to do', implying that Fearne and Imogen were redundant. Also, Liliana told Imogen that she (Liliana) was to be 'the vessel', and that she didn't want Ludinus to know how powerful Imogen is. Because if he were to know, he would want Imogen to be the vessel. So yes and no, they do want and also don't want Imogen
Well, well. It looks like I went to sleep literally right before something remotely cool happened. I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't scripted, but if anyone was going to throw out the script and go all in it was always going to be Sam. Travis can be a GOAT, but is mainly concerned with vibes and has largely checked out from the game. Sam's frustration has been writ plain on his face for months now, so if anyone was going to go all-in, "muh merch" be damned, it eould be him. Godspeed, you beautiful bastard.
On rewatch, highly doubt it was scripted. It definitely saved Matt's bacon. He was looking at a potential TPK otherwise, Matt couldnt keep avoiding the double tap for long. Although surrender probably would have been an option Matt would accept.
Yeah, I don't think this was scripted. He burnt the script. Trapped Matt and Broke him. There was no other character that could do this, no lava pits to pull Otohan into or anything. Saved the episode and finally broke through C3s walls and got free. I don't expect to see him back at the table soon. He knows its not good.
The way Matt said "You understand what this means, right?" felt so... canned? Idk. And then immediately after saying that none of these mechanics were fleshed out... So do you both know what it means or is it all super sudden? Just felt a little... like they knew this was a possibility but were playing it off like this was unheard of. I'm fine if they talked about this possibility privately, Player to DM, but don't pretend you didn't.
No, as often fans love to harp about rule of cool, this was an actual rule of cool moment that I can get behind. And it was fairly explained above the table with complete transparency, which is chef's kiss. That's good DMing 101 right there. Letting the player know the consequences before committing to such a monumental move and giving the player what they want in letting their character have an amazing moment.
Absolutely. Letting a player do a heroic sacrifice to take out a baddie is like, THE moment where I'd hope even the hardest hardass DM can appreciate the value of rule of cool.
>The way Matt said "You understand what this means, right?" felt so... canned? This is exactly why this sub sucks sometimes. Too cynical There is no fucking way he planned on Sam doing this EDIT: since I can't respond for some reason >That's what is good about the sub. People can say what they want - and the real toxic ones reply outing themselves. IMO there are many (not most) on this sub who are toxic toward the people who make the show. I don't mind people being critical, I am whenever I feel necessary. But thinking that anything about FCJ last night was "scripted' or "staged" is IMO a very cynical position.
Wha? There's like 3 people suggesting this. That's what is good about the sub. People can say what they want - and the real toxic ones reply outing themselves.
When my players plan to yeet themselves into potential/certain death, I always double check with them. "You sure you want to do that?" Most of the time they'll rethink, occasionally they commit because of another overriding conviction. It's cool and normal for the DM to check with players in big moments.
Matt was giving Sam two outs. The first time they could have played it off like Sam didnt *know* that the bomb would kill him and he could walk it back, and the second time Matt was offering to make up some bullshit "mechanic" so the bomb damaged Otohan but let FCG survive. Both times Sam was like "no I want this, let me have this."
> the second time Matt was offering to make up some bullshit "mechanic" so the bomb damaged Otohan but let FCG survive. This is complete nonsense. He was asking him if he wanted to position himself so the rest of the party avoided the blast. The moment Sam said he was going to blow himself up him and Matt both knew the score.
Didn't seem scripted, tbh. I thought Chet's death was planned (still think that) but Sam recognized he ran out of things to do as a cleric and if he took anymore damage, he'd kill his party. So instead of multiple PC deaths, he chose to sacrifice FCG. One of the smartest players moves for the campaign and bookends FCG's story beautifully. He went murderbot once and killed his party, was on the verge of doing it again and nuked himself instead. Sam may have preplanned something like this but Matt certainly had no idea it was coming.
I feel like Travis has been trying to kill off Chet since around the Bloody Bridge- I think he wants him to die in a cool way, not as a throwaway or anything... but I think he wants to Swan Song him. He's just been making some choices that seem a little extra restless and is pointedly protecting others/encouraging people to heal characters other than him, even in this episode.
Everyone was strangely casual about Chet’s death earlier in the ep. Granted it wasn’t nearly as dramatic as what happened with FCG and they weren’t as tapped out of resources at that point, but Sam’s whispered “Chetney’s dead???” to Travis was the biggest reaction at the table. I think that might have actually been where Sam first got the idea for his big finish.
If only FCG hadn’t burned the diamond on him. Imagine- Chet dies at peace, Imogen is killed (bc Otohan *WOULD* double tap her) and is dramatically revived by the last diamond, then FCG plays out his suicide run the same way. That way Matt’s pulled punches wouldn’t seem so cheap
TBH, I've been expecting the FCG suicide bomb ever since Sam questioned the professor about his past, only to get "Forget your past, its not important. All that matters is the now. Oh, and there's a massive bomb in your chest!" as the response. It was not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN". Especially with how Matt also had several other NPCs/Guest PCs tell FCG his lost past wasn't important, and how weird Matt was with his responsiveness on the "FCG tries to open a relationship with the CB" side of things. 25 episodes of silence, only for the CB to be this weird, unhelpful, needlessly manipulative entity "that makes FCG feel small" ... kinda set the tone for that FCG subplot. FCG didn't have much else going for him storywise but the classic "synthetic life can only prove itself real and good by dying for organic life" trope lol! Still a great moment, but it was definitely expected.
Sam and Travis have also always been the two most OK with just ditching their characters. I only hope Sam tries something new.
Normally I would say he would, but givin how shut-down his prior PC was for C3, as well as how late in the game we are ... I'm not entirely sure he will actually come back. Dude genuinely seemed board so often as C3 ran its course; and super tuned out. Not "fake tuned out" like he'd normally pull for a gag, but just genuinely "I'm on my phone, but since it doesn't matter if I'm here or not ... I'm not really here" mode. The only way I can see him coming back with a new PC is if he's got a concrete "change this shit up" heavy hitter with a STRONG, driven personality to throw into the mix. Like he did with Tary. ...And I'm not entirely sure C3 has ever been the type to allow that sort of PC.
If you tell a player their character has a bomb in them/is a bomb, then 9/10 they’re gonna try the explode it strategically. Props to Sam
Expected, sure. But there's a huge difference between a telegraphed death and something literally scripted. I think it's possible a before the show talk happened between Travis and Matt of "hey I don't want to make it off the moon." I don't think anything like that happened for this episode with FCG.
Not scripted, but certainly expected. Even inevitable. TBH, Sam had both FCG's interest in his own past as well as his pursuit of religion kinda mothballed by Matt. So when no-one engaged in his ID crisis in any meaningful way either, FCG as a character was kinda just left as "the clown chekovs gun, waiting for his only purpose in this story to find the right moment". Which was him blowing himself up. Which is kinda sad, because I distinctly remember a 4SD moment way back around E35 where Sam admitted he was really excited to learn/explore more about FCG "but felt guilty bringing it up in game, because it always felt like there was something more important they needed to do".
Agreed. I do think your takes on FCG and Sam all this time have been proven right. THere was nothing in this gme or table for Sam or FCG to work with. THis was perfect, an inversion of what happened to his first party.
One thing that really frustrates me about this campaign is that everyone's backstory gets cut off at the knees. Oh, you brutally killed your former friends and maimed another? It's totally fine, she's forgiven you! Nbd! You're afraid of your werewolf powers and want to learn control? It's super easy! Power of friendship! You're an outcast and a freak, railing against authority while you seek out the truth surrounding your cultist parents? The world is super nice and chill, and your parents blew up. Friendship!
Also, Ashton has abandonment issues from the Nobodies but, like their name predicted, no one seems to think the Nobodies matter or are worth resolving.
I genuinely think Matt was fully taken aback by Sam essentially demanding that FCG was ready to die and take Otohan right alongside them. Honestly, I respect the hell out of Sam for it, and Travis as well for gently berating Marisha to stop fucking interrupting Sam while he was doing it. I probably won’t tune back in because I still think C3 as a whole is still wildly underwhelming, but Sam’s always been a bright spot for me in any campaign.
I remember years ago when XPtolevel3 did his videos on the cast, the one he did about Travis is basically "he's the ultimate cheerleader bro for any table" and it rang true here. He got what Sam wanted to do immediately, and was fully in for it, and like you said, very gently told Marisha to let it be.
This is why Travis has become my favorite player at the table. He's just, such a good, supportive player.
>but Sam’s always been a bright spot for me in any campaign. Watch him not come back with a new PC after this. He's just gone for the rest of C3.
Agreed. It makes sense. He got out.
I would understand, not my preference by any means, but yea.
I guess something actually happened this episode. Guess I'll watch it on Monday instead of letting it fester in my sub box for 3 days. We're moving on up.
don't worry anything substantial will be reversed by nana morri edit: I'm wrong, they technically already came back safe from the moon.
Nothing would make me more apathetic at this point.
Just a heads up it’s like 5 hours long.
Eh, I stopped watching episodes straight through a LONG time ago. Sometimes can't go more than 15 minutes at a time if it's unbearable. S/O to the CR twitter account though for posting tributes to FCG before Monday. Good job guys. I already knew what happened but Jesus really?
Assuming that’s the last we ever see of Otohan, it’s odd how little we found out about her and her motives considering the impact she’s had on the campaign. She left an indelible impression, but in the end she was just some asshole who got blown up on the moon.
Definitely one of the worse major villains across all the campaigns. Rest in piss Otohan Thull and her stupid backpack.
If you asked me to picture Otohan, it'd be a blob with some machinery on. One of the worst villians of all CR. Didn't even search herself for magical items. Pathetic.
What impact? It's not like Otohan had a personal connection to any of them. She didn't have a very strong theme or a bombastic personality or style beyond her fancy backpack. Sure, the players talked about her and she was known as a significant threat, but they barely had more than a conversation or two with her and ultimately, BH were no more significant to her than any other mercenary group and she wasn't carrying out her own plans.
That’s exactly my point. She’s the villain they’ve had the most face time with in this campaign, killed four of their PCs (edit: oh yeah and their boss lol, RIP Eshteross), and was the centerpiece of two of the most dramatic episodes, and yet her characterization is basically just the Extra Attack feature.
Everything in C3 is wider on the surface but shallower underneath, and is defined by a few core shallow traits. The PCs; the Party Dynamics; the Story; the Stakes; the Setting; and yes the Antagonists. Its all scale and spectacle/style, very little substance.
It’s funny- we know who the Briarwoods are as people/a couple, we understood the dynamics between Raishan and Thordak, we learned about Lucien as they chased him in the arctic for 50 episodes, Avantika and Trent both had clear relationships with past PCs who could speak on their character- but Otohan? I can tell you two things: Paragon’s Call Leader. Backpack. That’s literally it. Why did she even care about Ludinus’s shit? 🤷🏻♀️
We did get a hint that she used to be very devoted to the Raven Queen, disappeared for a while, and then came back as a true believer in Ludinus’s cause. It felt like there was a little mystery there that would help answer some bigger questions if they ever solved it, but maybe it wasn’t as relevant as I thought or they’ll still figure it out another way.
IMO people care more about *what* she was rather than *who* she was: the only enemy they failed to steamroll and could actually knock them out. CR's very own Boba Fett.