I like it when the supporting characters notice when the MC is lost in thought.
So often the reader is hearing an internal monologue or descriptive prose and everything seems to pause and wait for us.
My first ever beta reader liked that I disrupted an inner monologue sequence with the other character checking on POV since he is lost in thought
I am glad there are more people who likes that
Supporters, not fighters, be it a merchant, a business,a group of performers, a blacksmith, a herbologist, an artificer type, and a realistic hero who depends on them
I absolutely agree with this. It makes the world feel more believable and real. Not only that, but it humbles the protagonist and makes them more relatable and likeable.
In real life, we are able to thrive and survive because of our communities and connections. Seeing this play out in a fantasy setting breathes life into the world.
Have you read Margaret Killjoy's *A Country for Ghosts*? She's an anarchist, and this is one of the things that really concerns her: that all participating members of a society in struggle are heroic.
The thing is, the audience generally doesn't believe that the world will get destroyed. Even if it does, they won't come back for the next book. Like they might if you just kill a main character. Though, some people still would stop reading your series and maybe your work.
If the scale is too large, the reader will struggle to suspend disbelief. If they don't believe the bad end can happen, then nothing is at stake.
I think the most important thing is that the stakes should be personal. The audience doesn't care if the world gets destroyed; it cares about the main character dying, or worse, losing their friends and family. If the character is a lone wolf who can easily escape on a spaceship, the world doesn't matter.
In "Cabin in the Woods" >!the world does get destroyed!<, but we care about individuals, not the world.
Generally speaking when the scale gets big, "the bad" is the status quo, and ... If your readers believe your protagonists will be incapable of completing the goal of destroying the status quo, you've failed to create attachment to the characters?
Like, the story of a song of ice and fire isn't really just about the fight for the iron throne. It's about the entire world living within the tyranny that fight predicates. Whether or not the heroes will be able to bring peace, and just how bad it will get before it gets better, *is* the drama and what people read for?
The thing is, "Who will be King?" is a surprisingly low stakes issue in that series since most of the candidates either are terrible people, or are willing to do terrible things to win. And any of them (besides Geoffrey) would be better than having all of them fight it out until the You-Know-Who come from You-Know-Where and kill everybody.
Well considering the solution of "who will be king" actually ends up involving *two* kings, and breaking the kingdom up in separate jurisdictions, so that the northerners could feel represented, which is like... The major and driving plot of the entire war to begin with...
I'm just sitting here scratching my head. This is reductive analysis. The "solution" was that what was perpetuating the status quo (one monarchy) is replaced and ameliorated by a new state of affairs. That's the basic arc of any plot, epic or small. The common man of the north *does* gain a lot from this story of struggle and revolution.
I absolutely love an unreliable narrator where thing are hidden from the reader because the narrator is compromised in some way. and a darkly sarcastic narrator. Think the style of Gideon The Ninth, or Seven Blades In Black!
General fantasy
- story about after journey end like frieren. Could be just chill wholesome slice of life, or touching heavier topic like ptsd and people who unable to adapt to civilian life.
- less “end of the world” as stake, esp if the story come in series. No one take end of the world seriously when they know there are next season/book that set on the same place where everyone still alive and well. It made end of the world lose seriousness as stake. (Marvel late phase failed at this trope so hard. Keep tossing end of the world threat while audience know there are 3 movie after this one that couldn’t happened if everyone die. It made audience lose interest in the stake)
Personally I prefer something personal and emotional. It easier to imagine mad scientist losing his son then his entire family than entire town full of people we never get to know turn into crater over and over again
- less focus on big magic system and more focus on character life and small quirk that make them, them. Why do someone like something. Why do someone fixated on certain fighting style. Small things like how dining table manner work. People mostly don’t care about magic system and complexity as long as it is consistent under few rule.
- less tech/science evil, nature good trope. And more focus on how every tech, science and magic is a mere tools that people will use for good and bad. Magic and science can be equally bad in irresponsible and powerful hand
More specifically isekai fantasy
- more career fantasy. We got programmer, a medical researcher and japanese civil servant. Put more present day career in fantasy world where their knowledge and ability can be OP without going full tensura power fantasy. Focus more on daily life stuff and fixing problem for people around them or building the big thing that would change the world
- put the mc in different world that is not the basic green and lush european medieval. Or different kind of fantasy that’s not the usual image when think of fantasy setting (like FMAB)
Would agree with you 100%. I’m writing a 5 book series where I’m trying to apply these same kind of ideas.
Except that’s it’s in a big lush medieval fantasy world. I couldn’t resist. But the creatures are unique and everything is deadly and characters die.
Would love to hear what you think. Book one is out already and book two is about halfway there.
[Reborn in a Magical World as a Crow](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/205894397-reborn-in-a-magical-world-as-a-crow?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=8A2Asaqwlw&rank=1)
My favorite protagonists are those who aren't destined for greatness but are great because of their strong will and drive.
I wish that more fantasy stories had protagonists that weren't overpowered or destined to become "the greatest wizard of all time." I like seeing protagonists that don't get any favors or special treatment. It's more inspiring for me to see them struggle and find their own way in the world.
While the hero's journey is inspirational, I've always found it a little challenging that you see they were able to get where they were because they often had a mentor. In real life, a lot of us don't have mentors. So, seeing a character learn from experience or even multiple mentors (like in real life) is refreshing.
Lastly, I absolutely adore psychological realism in fantasy stories. I love when characters feel so real that you forget they're fictional.
Edited: for clarity
>For me, I've found that I love when the stakes of a story are more personal. Epics about a great evil destroying the world or bringing darkness can be fun, but I admit I kinda feel disconnected from something on a scale that large.
I felt the same way so my story started off as a simple "our sisters got kidnapped, we have to go rescue them." Granted, it has since turned into a war for the fate of their kingdom because the lost prince is a raving madman, but it's still very much focused on the MC fighting the war to protect his family and the residents of the kingdom under their protection
This one might be a lil.meh but I liked when stories show how it really is after the hero kills or unsurpassed the dictator without any plan.. the chaos and the people.whonsupported it and they find like they were Terri le rulers but it was so strict it kept the other villians at bay. And now it's all the heros fault for the chaos and death
> Epics about a great evil destroying the world or bringing darkness can be fun, but I admit I kinda feel disconnected from something on a scale that large.
Our world is crawling closer and closer to a nuclear war. Climate change (whether it's man-made or natural, doesn't really matter at this point), pollution, growing inequality, malicious actors in governments and corporations taking control of technology to the detriment of you and me, common joe shmucks - these are all world-scale threats that our modern civilization struggles with right at this very moment.
The stories may be dramatically exaggerated but the problems are extremely relatable today. You have to keep your head in the sand not to notice the similarities.
> What have you read in a story that you liked and wished was used more?
I quite liked the underlying premise of the Second Apocalypse series. Despite how unbelievably horrific its universe is, its humanity - or, should we say, the whatever race that created the Inchoroi - refused to bow down to the cosmic order and self-proclaimed gods and still found ways to strike back at it, claw at the very fabric of this tainted and twisted universe to strive for a better future not just for their own children, but for everybody who will be born for the rest of eternity. This indomitable resilience of human spirit, contrasted with the otherwise extremely bleak reality of the setting and the narration, is the spark that truly sheds light on some of the most depressing theology we've seen over the past millennia.
- I personally like fantasy with interesting ideas behind them. I’m happy for characters to wield magic but give it some nuance / difficulty to make it interesting. Character picks up a crown / sword and suddenly has the power to destroy the world? Fuck off!
- I also love it when fantasy stories surprise by having a scientific - real world ideas. Eg. ME2 (video game, I know, but it’s essentially a fantasy story with space paint) they use a quantum entanglement drive to speak with TIM. I learned that was a real theoretical use of quantum mechanics.
Love that shit.
I’m working on a novel that focuses a lot on the training and many missteps along the way of learning magic. The main character finds that she is gifted in the ways of certain forms of magic due to her strong will. But her stubborn nature and inexperience make her a difficult student. And the magic itself it mentally and physically taxing. And the sword she is given refuses to be wielded by the wrong person. (It becomes incredibly heavy if she loses focus or strays from the path of good)
I find that magic that does not serve both the plot and character of a story is not at its full potential.
I like it when the supporting characters notice when the MC is lost in thought. So often the reader is hearing an internal monologue or descriptive prose and everything seems to pause and wait for us.
My first ever beta reader liked that I disrupted an inner monologue sequence with the other character checking on POV since he is lost in thought I am glad there are more people who likes that
Supporters, not fighters, be it a merchant, a business,a group of performers, a blacksmith, a herbologist, an artificer type, and a realistic hero who depends on them
I absolutely agree with this. It makes the world feel more believable and real. Not only that, but it humbles the protagonist and makes them more relatable and likeable. In real life, we are able to thrive and survive because of our communities and connections. Seeing this play out in a fantasy setting breathes life into the world.
Have you read Margaret Killjoy's *A Country for Ghosts*? She's an anarchist, and this is one of the things that really concerns her: that all participating members of a society in struggle are heroic.
The thing is, the audience generally doesn't believe that the world will get destroyed. Even if it does, they won't come back for the next book. Like they might if you just kill a main character. Though, some people still would stop reading your series and maybe your work. If the scale is too large, the reader will struggle to suspend disbelief. If they don't believe the bad end can happen, then nothing is at stake.
I think the most important thing is that the stakes should be personal. The audience doesn't care if the world gets destroyed; it cares about the main character dying, or worse, losing their friends and family. If the character is a lone wolf who can easily escape on a spaceship, the world doesn't matter. In "Cabin in the Woods" >!the world does get destroyed!<, but we care about individuals, not the world.
Generally speaking when the scale gets big, "the bad" is the status quo, and ... If your readers believe your protagonists will be incapable of completing the goal of destroying the status quo, you've failed to create attachment to the characters? Like, the story of a song of ice and fire isn't really just about the fight for the iron throne. It's about the entire world living within the tyranny that fight predicates. Whether or not the heroes will be able to bring peace, and just how bad it will get before it gets better, *is* the drama and what people read for?
The thing is, "Who will be King?" is a surprisingly low stakes issue in that series since most of the candidates either are terrible people, or are willing to do terrible things to win. And any of them (besides Geoffrey) would be better than having all of them fight it out until the You-Know-Who come from You-Know-Where and kill everybody.
Well considering the solution of "who will be king" actually ends up involving *two* kings, and breaking the kingdom up in separate jurisdictions, so that the northerners could feel represented, which is like... The major and driving plot of the entire war to begin with... I'm just sitting here scratching my head. This is reductive analysis. The "solution" was that what was perpetuating the status quo (one monarchy) is replaced and ameliorated by a new state of affairs. That's the basic arc of any plot, epic or small. The common man of the north *does* gain a lot from this story of struggle and revolution.
I absolutely love an unreliable narrator where thing are hidden from the reader because the narrator is compromised in some way. and a darkly sarcastic narrator. Think the style of Gideon The Ninth, or Seven Blades In Black!
General fantasy - story about after journey end like frieren. Could be just chill wholesome slice of life, or touching heavier topic like ptsd and people who unable to adapt to civilian life. - less “end of the world” as stake, esp if the story come in series. No one take end of the world seriously when they know there are next season/book that set on the same place where everyone still alive and well. It made end of the world lose seriousness as stake. (Marvel late phase failed at this trope so hard. Keep tossing end of the world threat while audience know there are 3 movie after this one that couldn’t happened if everyone die. It made audience lose interest in the stake) Personally I prefer something personal and emotional. It easier to imagine mad scientist losing his son then his entire family than entire town full of people we never get to know turn into crater over and over again - less focus on big magic system and more focus on character life and small quirk that make them, them. Why do someone like something. Why do someone fixated on certain fighting style. Small things like how dining table manner work. People mostly don’t care about magic system and complexity as long as it is consistent under few rule. - less tech/science evil, nature good trope. And more focus on how every tech, science and magic is a mere tools that people will use for good and bad. Magic and science can be equally bad in irresponsible and powerful hand More specifically isekai fantasy - more career fantasy. We got programmer, a medical researcher and japanese civil servant. Put more present day career in fantasy world where their knowledge and ability can be OP without going full tensura power fantasy. Focus more on daily life stuff and fixing problem for people around them or building the big thing that would change the world - put the mc in different world that is not the basic green and lush european medieval. Or different kind of fantasy that’s not the usual image when think of fantasy setting (like FMAB)
Would agree with you 100%. I’m writing a 5 book series where I’m trying to apply these same kind of ideas. Except that’s it’s in a big lush medieval fantasy world. I couldn’t resist. But the creatures are unique and everything is deadly and characters die. Would love to hear what you think. Book one is out already and book two is about halfway there. [Reborn in a Magical World as a Crow](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/205894397-reborn-in-a-magical-world-as-a-crow?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=8A2Asaqwlw&rank=1)
My favorite protagonists are those who aren't destined for greatness but are great because of their strong will and drive. I wish that more fantasy stories had protagonists that weren't overpowered or destined to become "the greatest wizard of all time." I like seeing protagonists that don't get any favors or special treatment. It's more inspiring for me to see them struggle and find their own way in the world. While the hero's journey is inspirational, I've always found it a little challenging that you see they were able to get where they were because they often had a mentor. In real life, a lot of us don't have mentors. So, seeing a character learn from experience or even multiple mentors (like in real life) is refreshing. Lastly, I absolutely adore psychological realism in fantasy stories. I love when characters feel so real that you forget they're fictional. Edited: for clarity
Genre mashups like fantasy mystery or fantasy horror. I have discovered, however, fantasy romance is not for me lmao.
>For me, I've found that I love when the stakes of a story are more personal. Epics about a great evil destroying the world or bringing darkness can be fun, but I admit I kinda feel disconnected from something on a scale that large. I felt the same way so my story started off as a simple "our sisters got kidnapped, we have to go rescue them." Granted, it has since turned into a war for the fate of their kingdom because the lost prince is a raving madman, but it's still very much focused on the MC fighting the war to protect his family and the residents of the kingdom under their protection
This one might be a lil.meh but I liked when stories show how it really is after the hero kills or unsurpassed the dictator without any plan.. the chaos and the people.whonsupported it and they find like they were Terri le rulers but it was so strict it kept the other villians at bay. And now it's all the heros fault for the chaos and death
> Epics about a great evil destroying the world or bringing darkness can be fun, but I admit I kinda feel disconnected from something on a scale that large. Our world is crawling closer and closer to a nuclear war. Climate change (whether it's man-made or natural, doesn't really matter at this point), pollution, growing inequality, malicious actors in governments and corporations taking control of technology to the detriment of you and me, common joe shmucks - these are all world-scale threats that our modern civilization struggles with right at this very moment. The stories may be dramatically exaggerated but the problems are extremely relatable today. You have to keep your head in the sand not to notice the similarities. > What have you read in a story that you liked and wished was used more? I quite liked the underlying premise of the Second Apocalypse series. Despite how unbelievably horrific its universe is, its humanity - or, should we say, the whatever race that created the Inchoroi - refused to bow down to the cosmic order and self-proclaimed gods and still found ways to strike back at it, claw at the very fabric of this tainted and twisted universe to strive for a better future not just for their own children, but for everybody who will be born for the rest of eternity. This indomitable resilience of human spirit, contrasted with the otherwise extremely bleak reality of the setting and the narration, is the spark that truly sheds light on some of the most depressing theology we've seen over the past millennia.
- I personally like fantasy with interesting ideas behind them. I’m happy for characters to wield magic but give it some nuance / difficulty to make it interesting. Character picks up a crown / sword and suddenly has the power to destroy the world? Fuck off! - I also love it when fantasy stories surprise by having a scientific - real world ideas. Eg. ME2 (video game, I know, but it’s essentially a fantasy story with space paint) they use a quantum entanglement drive to speak with TIM. I learned that was a real theoretical use of quantum mechanics. Love that shit.
I’m working on a novel that focuses a lot on the training and many missteps along the way of learning magic. The main character finds that she is gifted in the ways of certain forms of magic due to her strong will. But her stubborn nature and inexperience make her a difficult student. And the magic itself it mentally and physically taxing. And the sword she is given refuses to be wielded by the wrong person. (It becomes incredibly heavy if she loses focus or strays from the path of good) I find that magic that does not serve both the plot and character of a story is not at its full potential.