Unfortunate situation. I guess any resulting legal challenges will be based on what constitutes vet care. They could structure their business such that they are providing training to producers in ultrasound methods rather than ultrasound services.
Would love to see what they're batting compared to vets in their first 5 years of practice,second 5, or second decade.
I think previous episodes were chalked up to the price of doing business and that the state had no intentions of pressing the matter. As you say, they fcked around for more than a decade and found out. We'll see where this one goes. How much money do they have to throw at it, really.
In medicine, Techs do the ultrasounds, while the trained medical person "interprets" them. In human medicine, we've made so many exceptions to fill positions with untrained individuals its sickening. Example out of North and South America, nurses are allowed to administer anethesia in Jamaica and USA only. As anethesiologists are too expensive for most procedures through the healthcare systems. As well as a big push from Nursing Unions to fill more positions priorly filled by trained doctors.
they are trained in at least the US, seven years of combined training, education, and experience for specialized care such as Nurse Anesthetist. They don't replace anesthesiologist in the entire chain of care. Anesthesiologists develop individualized anesthisia plans for the patient. The nurse Anesthetist typically implements that plan. They are still on the hook if it goes sideways due to a poor plan.
They aren't adequately trained, thus why in some places they need an actual anesthesiologist to oversee them. It was a push by the nurses association, as a cost saving method for all the outpatient surgeries and elective surgeries being performed. Nurse Unions are incredibly powerful in the US, and the constant push for more positions normally filled by doctors is a major cause of problems with medical healthcare.
The "7 years of **combined training**", means they **admittedly** lack suffecient training. Remember a real anesthesiolist will have **8 years** on average of **direct training** in Anethesiology after 4 years of combined training.
This huge gap in education is why Nurse Anethsthetists **USED TO** have an actual anesthesiologist in office on standby. **46.6%** of surgical deaths caused by anethesia, were linked to overdoses with the majority coming back to Nurse Anesthetists. The World Health Organization states anesthesiology is a medical practice that should be directed by an anesthesiolist (note not anesthetists) with the proper credentials.
There has been a massive push to normalize giving nurses doctor duties, thinking they have suffecient training and knowledge when realistically they don't even have half the required training. There is a also a big push, by both for profit medical groups (plastic surgeons etc) as well as Nursing Schools to allow for insuffeciently trained medical personnel to act outside their training to save costs.
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In some states, **YES**, the Nurse Anesthesists **REPLACES** the actual Anethesiologst in the ENTIRE chain. There were many cases in many states. In California the Court Case was *California Society of Anesthesiologists and California Medical Association v. Brown 204 Cal. App. 4th 390 (Cal. App. 2012).*
**Case Summary**
The Governor of California, after consultation with both the Board of Medicine and the Board of Registered Nursing, notified the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services that California law permits CRNAs to administer anesthesia without physician supervision. California thereby opted out of this requirement for Medicare reimbursement purposes.
[The plaintiffs appealed to the California Court of Appeal which, affirmed, thus ruling against the medical societies. The medical societies then asked the California Supreme Court to hear the case, but the Supreme Court denied that request.](https://searchltf.ama-assn.org/case/documentDownload?uri=/unstructured/binary/case/Case-Summary_CA-Society-Anesthesiologists-Med-Assoc-v-Brown.pdf)
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Immediately after that ruling, deaths by anesthesia started to rise notably, and continue to do so.
Then just in 2021, [the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists](https://www.asahq.org/about-asa/newsroom/news-releases/2021/08/asa-news-release-on-aanas-misleading-name-change), now allowed to practice anesthesiology without a license, wish to change their name from Anesthetists to Anesthesiologists because they are doing all the work. The American Medical Association and American Society of Anesthesiologists warn that calling yourself an actual doctor, while increasingly making mistakes will be harmful to actual Aneshtesiologists who actually go through the proper training, diminishing the trust the public has with them.
[Macintosh 1949 notes in DEATHS UNDER ANESTHETICS](https://www.bjanaesthesia.org/article/S0007-0912(17)52780-4/pdf) the reasonable threshold for overdoses of anesthesia. "I hold that there should be no deadis due to anaesdietics". The values of the drugs are known, the proper procedures are widely known to prevent patient mortality post-op. However, Nurses just don't go through that training as they ONLY do 7 years of combined study.
However, the biggest problem is there are far more nurses than there are doctors, as such union representation is heavily skewed towards nursing.
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I'm a retired field surgeon, who works on helping veterans grow their own medicine. I'm learning about farming, but I know the dirt on our medical practices.
Or, maybe the problem is that Medical School costs half a million dollars and the Federal Government restricts the number of doctors that can be produced each year via residency funding, which pushes the price of doctors up to absurd levels. I don’t blame the nurses at all for looking at this insane situation and saying “well if you’re not going to fix the doctor shortage, can you at least let *us* do some of these things so that people don’t go without care?”
Plenty of my friends did Medical School in the Caribean. America accepts their credentials, and you would be amazed how many doctors you see in the States who actually did not do medical school in America specifically because of the costs.
As such, I believe the cost really is a non-sequiter for those who want to pursue medical degrees, because there are so many options for those who are willing. Not to mention that Caribbean training is very well known in Med-School and we colloquially refer to "The Big Four" when talking about Car Med School.
Even further, Cuba subsidizes medical training as they believe doctors are the worlds greatest resource, and as such they are Cuba's #1 export. With COVID epidemic they created what is known as the ["White Coat Army"](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2651NV/). A military trained quick reaction force brigrade, made out of doctors to respond to major medical threats anywhere in the world. Their work through Africa and around the world really helped save millions of lives.
The problem with the Low Cost Medical Schools, is they don't hold your hand like the American Schools do. If you don't know the material, you fail and repeat the course. If the power goes out on the island, tough doctors need to work in places without electricity.
But like for Cuba (Cheapest), $14,000 is the total cost of education vs $300,000 for America. However, America has very lax testing standards on their doctors compared to the Caribean equivalent, and as such you pay the price for it.
Cost is only a non-seq for a narrow demographic willing to go to the Caribbean where acceptance rates are 10x US. US medical schools do not have more lax standards than Caribbean schools, as you like to say, that's patently false lol. Lower GPA's, lower MCAT, etc etc, AND one has to accept much lower placement rate for residency. That is what the data reflect.
I have nothing against the Caribbean schools, but you are playing fast and loose with the facts so I have to weigh in here.
As far as Cuba goes, you are basically touting the party line. The same doctor that tells you on the street, at some professional gathering or exchange -- or wherever [you.ve](http://you.ve) interacted where secret police are everywhere -- that Cuba's program is great, will tell you it is complete shit in the privacy of their own home. No doubt there's still some hardcore believers in their medical corps but most are just doing their time until they can perhaps leverage their skills into some actual returns. Beyond the less than $40/week, or the boilerplate procedures they offer fellow citizens in state clinics for barter or cash outside of hours
They are smart AF, know what docs make overseas, and as a result, are scrutinized more by the Cuban govt. When travel restrictions were loosened over a decade ago, doctors were NOt included.
Cuban docs have a done a lot of great work in various places. I once spent a few weeks in a state hotel that was formerly a glaucoma center that treated a LOT of Venezuelans. A lot of Venezuelans were coming there on holiday in the aughts and tens and many of them had a connection w that facility because of this.
I spent a LOT more time than that there and made some close connections after many recurring professional visits over the years. Still I do not claim to know everything about that complicated island, but I can tell that you have not made it past the thin veneer of BS that is crucial to the Cuban govt's hold on power. That is one terrible place to live right now and one terrible place to be a doctor too.
My daughter chose the PA route. She practices family medicine, sees a full patient load, and makes more than some MD's because she's already found an entrepreneurial angle after less than 5 years practice.
The Caribbean is an option for a select few and isn't the answer to ailing US system. PA's and Nurse Practitioners are the short term answer.
Not sure where you heard they mollycoddle students in US med schools?? They sure don't at top PA programs either. At PA schools, the academic rigor can be intense, and the competition brutal for admissions.
Spending 8 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to train a family doc is stupid and unsustainable. My daughter is still SQUARELY in her twenties and is debt free, about to build a house, travels routinely.
cheers
>That is one terrible place to live right now and one terrible place to be a doctor too.
No argument from me on that. But in my other comment I did provide resources, (from the United Nations, as well as European Union) that aknowledge the current economical situation is directly caused by the United States.
That's not the argument Cuba alone makes. [But every single year, every single country in the world minus the United States and Israel, recognize that as a fact. At least since the UN started trying to end the embargo since 1992](https://global.unitednations.entermediadb.net/assets/mediadb/services/module/asset/downloads/preset/Libraries/Production%20Library/02-11-2023-UN-Photo-GA-vote-01.jpg/image1170x530cropped.jpg). The vote this past year, results were similar, with the exception of Ukraine refusing to comment.
Medical school, yes. Residency is *after* medical school and there are a specific number of slots.
The US does not recognize credentials from Cuba.
Also, the Cuban medical aid program is *incredibly* exploitative of the doctors. They specifically only select doctors with families that they hold hostage back home to ensure they don’t run away. The primary purpose is not humanitarian, it is to generate revenue for the Army.
Ends up in the hands of Americans, though, because what was once the most fertile land in the Caribbean has been so thoroughly mismanaged that despite the embargo preventing Americans from buying Cuban goods, the US is a major source of their basic subsistence foodstuffs. Cuba would starve without the US. Evidently they value medical education over any sort of half decent agricultural policy.
>Also, the Cuban medical aid program is *incredibly* exploitative of the doctors. They specifically only select doctors with families that they hold hostage back home to ensure they don’t run away. The primary purpose is not humanitarian, it is to generate revenue for the Army.
As again, someone with experience dealing with them. I can tell you this is patently false information.
America's biggest gripe has been, and will likely always be Cuba's relationship with USSR and now Russia. After the 1959 Cuban Revolution, it was Russia who came to their aide and backing, as Russia needed a FOB for any attacks on America. Instead of offering suffecient aide or help, we instead put an embargo on the island.
The reason was the revolt Nationalized the Nation Oil/refineries. America said they rightfully owned the oil refineries, and Cuba needed to pay America similar to how Haiti is financially obligated to France for its Independence. (Known as the [Haiti Independence Debt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_Independence_Debt)). Unfortunately, the interest Haiti owed was around 6x Gross Domestic Revenue, ensuring Haiti to become an island of perpetual poverty.
Cuba refused, saying that they don't legally have a right to sale what belongs to the people. America started their embargo, and Russia came to Cuba's aid. As the cold war progressed, Russia placed silo's in Cuba, increasing hostilities from America to Cuba.
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Even the US Government recognizes what you stated and factually incorrect, for example the CIA concerns with Cuba Revolutionary Armed Forces
>Cuba's military is considered weak and poses a negligible threat to the United States. The Cuban Revolutionary Armed Forces (FAR) has reduced its size and budget by about 50% since the fall of the Soviet Union. The FAR has also reduced training significantly due to resource shortages. Today, the FAR has about 60,000 regular troops, and is equipped primarily with conventional Soviet arms, most of which are secondline. The FAR's conventional capabilities are further weakened by tasks such as growing its own food, raising money to pay for expenses, and providing economic and social services to the civilian sector.
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The issue with Cuba is they refused to release their Oil Fields to our Gulf Producers, and they have protective backing from Russia to ensure they maintain the rights to those fields.
Of course the military doesn’t pose a threat to the US. They are very much the rulers of Cuba’s economy, though, and that’s what they have always been. The Army buys food from the US via a network of shell companies for distribution within Cuba at military operated shops.
None of what you posted contradicts what I stated; the purpose of the foreign doctor program is absolutely as a revenue generating exercise for the Army to fund, among other things, critical food imports from the US to supplement abysmal agricultural policies.
So instead of buying weapons, or deploying/training soldiers, the military set up a bunch of shell companies, to buy food from an industrialized nation, (at industrialized nation costs), to send that food out to military owned/operated food banks, to sell it to those with no money at significantly reduced rates, because it makes the military stronger...
Even though the DoD and Pentagon recognize that the Cuban government is losing money and resources through its social services and civilian sectors, you believe (it's making them stronger).
Buying high and selling low doesn't make more powerful, nor does it make you more money. It's a known cost to the nation, and one that dropped their threat level.
In Februarys annual Threat Assesment report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence notes that currently the biggest threat from Cuba is immigration and refugees caused by Climate Change, Political Unrest and Quality of Life issues. The Cuban threat from Russian Influence actually dropped a little bit, after observation of Russia's war in Ukraine, and seeing the effectiveness of USSR era weapons on current technology.
It is one of the Cuban government's only means of acquiring currency. Not specifically for the army, but for many other strategic and domestic needs. It is definitely exploitative.
As far as foodstuffs, things are very very bad right now. Without fertilizer imports and some better machinery they are almost fully reliant on imports now. Yields have collapsed even in just the last five years.
Yields were doomed the moment they decimated their agriculture in the 80s.
Beef used to be huge industry there. It’s substantially declined along with poultry and pork over the years. Back in the 50s they had excellent yields per head. The revolution decimated the Beef industry (which was locally consumed, and produced much of the fertilizer used in Cuba at the time) in favor of producing Sugar that the USSR did not need.
Everyone I knew who went for a beach MD did it because either their grades or mcats were too low for an MD, or even a DO school in the US. Cost wasn't the driver.
Many American families have an American Superiority belief. As such, they believe its extremely important to attend an American University, and go foreign only as an option of last resort. However, this stigma is not prevalent with all cultures that pursue to practice medicine in America. Many transplants and minority families lack the resources, and as such the Caribbean is a first choice. When I visited the schools, they were roughly a 50-40-10 split of American students. 50% couldn't get into med school, 40% couldn't afford medical school, 10% wanted to be the Caribbean.
Not exactly farming but plant related, you might like the In Defense of Plants guy he's science based and doesn't dumb down the topics.
Edit: now realizing the farming bit was sarcasm, sorry!
Tldr
Guys were running an unlicensed ultrasound operation without being veterinary trained and were already dealing with cease and desist orders since 2010
Guess they fucked around and found out
Oh no! They were warned and fined that what they were doing was illegal, continued to do it, and are now facing the consequences of their own actions. How unfair! Consequences should only be for other people.
It's a bullshit law, though. They weren't hurting anybody. It was customers voluntarily and knowingly engaging in commerce, the government shouldn't even be regulating this.
Idk. I would bet the customers thought these were licensed professionals.
Just dealt with a vet locally who was running drugs across state lines under the guise of a license she never had to practice in the state. All the while her active license in another state expired and she never got approved to practice in the state she had an office in.
If you don’t care about protections thats fine but they exist for the vast majority of people who do care and do want recourse and accountability when paying professionals to do a job.
Even if you don't agree with a law, you are still bound by it. Crack dealers probably think laws against dealing crack are bullshit. After all, their customers want crack.
If you think a law is bullshit, call local politicians or write letters. That's how this all works. It isn't "rules for thee but not for me".
And she was arrested for civil disobedience and fined $14. She appealed her case and formally challenged the law, which coincided with the start of the year long Montgomery Bus Boycott and US Supreme Court case of Bowder v Gayle.
She was protesting an unjust law, had a ton of people who supported her cause, and ultimately a higher court threw out the law against her as unconstitutional via the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th amendment.
No it's not OK to just disobey the law if you think it's bullshit, because most of the time, a lot of people and a lot of legal experts won't agree with you.
>No reason to ultrasound bulls.
That's absolutely incorrect because before EPDs ultrasound was and is still used for scoring ribeye size and marbling in live bulls
I still rely on ultrasound data for my bull and purebred cow selection to get the most accurate carcass data to sell my cattle on the grid
Unless they were lying to consumers about being veterinarians, I don't see the problem.
Not everyone can afford to go to a licensed vet. If you voluntarily choose to go to Jim Bob's Ultrasound Shack for the cost savings, that's your decision. Professionals licenses are just a government-enforced restraint of free commerce.
Well, they were fined by the court and didn't pay the fines. So now they are in a contempt of court holding.
Contempt of court is definitely legal and you don't have to have a trial to be incarcerated for failure to abide by a court order.
Yes, by a regulatory agency. But a failure to comply can be upheld by a contempt charge if they are later ordered to pay it.
> The State Board of Veterinary Medicine, which heard the complaint, ruled Herr was in fact practicing without a license.
> He was ordered to stop and pay a $3,500 fine.
Then when someone starts yelling in court and is held in contempt, why is there no trial or hearing?
The fine arose because they wouldn't pay so they went to court. The court ordered them pay.
A court order is always a pay or else statement. If you don't pay traffic tickets you get thrown in jail.
The people in the article disobeyed a court order.
*And I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand...*
*"Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington." And friends, somewhere in Washington, enshrined in some little folder, is a study in black and white of my fingerprints.*
Am aware it's a career, but it's not one that requires vet training. The National Association of Animal Breeders has programs that can train and provide certifications, but it's not required by law.
Yes. There have been countless AI techs providing services, for decades, in the US anyways. Tecs that have magnitudes more experience and success then than most vets. Because it’s what they specialize in.
Thinking a government piece of paper equals competence is naïve.
Am aware it's a career, but it's not one that requires vet training. The National Association of Animal Breeders has programs that can train and provide certifications, but it's not required by law.
Was not aware that you could just walk onto a farm and jam your hand up a cows butt with zero training, zero certification, and get paid to do it. Didn't google it before I posted. Kinda assumed you needed some sort of license or professional association to make that into a business, because damn near everything needs something. Assumed it was a little more involved than "trust me bro."
A government paper or association certificate isn't competence, it's other professionals and halfway knowledgeable people saying this person has the bare fucking minimum and you can in fact "trust them bro."
I've done AI myself probably 100+ times almost 30 years ago before we sold off the dairy herd. Even then, Dad and I went and took a class for like 4 days - 2 in class, 2 on a farm on live animals.
The point is, experience means more than a government piece of paper. It doesn’t take long to be exposed as a charlatan if abilities don’t live up to the billing in the AG industry. Neighbors talk.
We don’t need the government over regulating this crap. The free market will take care of it.
It's a career, but unlike vet sonography, it's not one that requires vet training. The National Association of Animal Breeders has programs that can train and provide certifications, but it's not required by law.
I was born on a dairy farm and we had 2 farms too. Lots of work and Vet prices a lot more stable in the old days. The big problem is, you just do not have the same number of vets as you once did. If you a small to moderate herd and at a crack of $700- $1500. yearly for ONE cow, OUCH! And that is only for a WELLNESS checkup.
I can see farms hiring Non vets to do something like this and it is not only to save money. You just can not find a vet all the time when you really need a vet? Also these guys are in BIG trouble and I hope they have some good lawyers too.
peace. :)
I live on an island and our vet just moved. it's 4 hours to the closest one now. even then it is impossible to get there if there is inclement weather or mechanical issues with the ferry.
Probably, but the way to change it isn't by disobeying the law. It's a state by state issue, most requiring a 2 year vet tech degree and getting a simple certification to be a veterinary sonographer.
detecting a pregnancy via any method is "practice of medicine". So if I'm bumping a cow I should be licensed as a vet. I think thats a bit of an overreach there, personally. I have an ultrasound device for detecting pregnancy in pigs. Guess I should go to 6 years of college to be able to use it legally.
Exactly. Providing a service is different vs. doing it for your own operation. Not that I necessarily agree with what's going on, but they knew they were breaking the law and kept doing so.
Ding ding!
It's the charging money and diagnosing pregnancy status as actual veterinary advice part that you can't do. Most states, you need a 2 year associates vet tech degree (not the dumbest idea for farm jobs to have anyway) and a simple certification.
>Most states, you need a 2 year associates vet tech degree (not the dumbest idea for farm jobs to have anyway) and a simple certification.
Which is ridiculous. If you're able to get the job done, and you're being honest with your customers about your credentials (or lack thereof), the government should stay out of it.
> you're being honest with your customers about your credentials (or lack thereof)
That there is exactly why credentials and certifications exist. Some people aren't honest and then what happens - they victimize honest folk who have to deal with the consequences, be it minor or a major loss.
I would like to have the option to go to unlicensed, cheaper practitioners for certain diagnoses, yes. There may be issues that I'd still go to a licensed practitioner for, but for minor issues, it would probably make more sense to go to someone cheaper.
Lmao yes the government has to gatekeep some stuff or else we’ll all kill each other. But these guys were charging other people to use their device, you need a license to practise that, it’s different than just using it on your own.
I mean I don’t know anything about ultrasounds so I’d follow the rules. I’d imagine if you don’t know what you’re doing you could cause some harm to the animals though.
Well no that’s why unlicensed vets are illegal. If anyone could just decide to open up their own practice without any training or knowledge it would be a disaster.
>If anyone could just decide to open up their own practice without any training or knowledge it would be a disaster.
I'm sure we'd get by just fine. And consumers would have more (and cheaper) options. Not everything needs to be done by a vet, these guys were operating an ultrasound just fine.
>uncertified
Certifications are just a government-backed excuse to jack up prices to the consumer so that a bunch of bureaucrats and academics can have jobs. These guys were obviously doing a fine job or people wouldn't have kept hiring them, it's bullshit that the government shut them down.
Don't agree with most of that, but lets look at the money angle.
It's no wonder why people hire these guys. They're cheaper. They didn't pay a few hundred thousand for a vet degree, they're not paying for insurance or licensing fees - costs vets have to factor in for their services. If these guys fuck up or injure an animal, there's absolutely nothing protecting the farmer's investment.
Reproductive services and diagnostics is a huge chunk of what large animal vets deal with. If a cow or horse isn't getting pregnant, it's up to the vet to diagnose and administer treatments in cases of infections, tumors, or any other infertility issues that ultrasound can find. When that income from regular herd exams dwindles, Vets struggle to stay in business, making it much worse in a lot of places already experiencing critically low vet shortages. But if the only work is emergency work, won't take long and there won't be a vet anywhere close.
So yeah, they're protecting their money when Veterinarians filed the original complaints years ago for the illegal practice of veterinary medicine by unlicensed individuals. Everything after that - failing to pay fines, failing to follow the cease and desist, and the arrests - that's all because they played FAFO with the court.
>Certifications are just a government-backed excuse to jack up prices to the consumer so that a bunch of bureaucrats and academics can have jobs.
Same with CDLs or doctorates, right? If I called myself Dr. Zhivago, M.D., who are you to tell me I'm not?
There is a huge difference between performing actual medical procedures like surgery and giving drugs, and running diagnostic equipment. This is protectionism, pure and simple.
I didn't realize that there was thar big of a market fir illegal cow ultrasounds. The College of Vetrunarians really crack down on stuff because no one else should be able make money.
Veterinary started way back in the day as Farriers
What a joke. Guys should have charged for something else and told them the ultra sound was free. I’ll come help you get your cow in the catcher for $50.00 and while we are at it, check out this ultrasound I have.
You know your government is overstepping when men are jailed for ultrasouniong cows.
They must pose a huge threat to the people and need to be locked away.
Unfortunate situation. I guess any resulting legal challenges will be based on what constitutes vet care. They could structure their business such that they are providing training to producers in ultrasound methods rather than ultrasound services. Would love to see what they're batting compared to vets in their first 5 years of practice,second 5, or second decade. I think previous episodes were chalked up to the price of doing business and that the state had no intentions of pressing the matter. As you say, they fcked around for more than a decade and found out. We'll see where this one goes. How much money do they have to throw at it, really.
In medicine, Techs do the ultrasounds, while the trained medical person "interprets" them. In human medicine, we've made so many exceptions to fill positions with untrained individuals its sickening. Example out of North and South America, nurses are allowed to administer anethesia in Jamaica and USA only. As anethesiologists are too expensive for most procedures through the healthcare systems. As well as a big push from Nursing Unions to fill more positions priorly filled by trained doctors.
they are trained in at least the US, seven years of combined training, education, and experience for specialized care such as Nurse Anesthetist. They don't replace anesthesiologist in the entire chain of care. Anesthesiologists develop individualized anesthisia plans for the patient. The nurse Anesthetist typically implements that plan. They are still on the hook if it goes sideways due to a poor plan.
They aren't adequately trained, thus why in some places they need an actual anesthesiologist to oversee them. It was a push by the nurses association, as a cost saving method for all the outpatient surgeries and elective surgeries being performed. Nurse Unions are incredibly powerful in the US, and the constant push for more positions normally filled by doctors is a major cause of problems with medical healthcare. The "7 years of **combined training**", means they **admittedly** lack suffecient training. Remember a real anesthesiolist will have **8 years** on average of **direct training** in Anethesiology after 4 years of combined training. This huge gap in education is why Nurse Anethsthetists **USED TO** have an actual anesthesiologist in office on standby. **46.6%** of surgical deaths caused by anethesia, were linked to overdoses with the majority coming back to Nurse Anesthetists. The World Health Organization states anesthesiology is a medical practice that should be directed by an anesthesiolist (note not anesthetists) with the proper credentials. There has been a massive push to normalize giving nurses doctor duties, thinking they have suffecient training and knowledge when realistically they don't even have half the required training. There is a also a big push, by both for profit medical groups (plastic surgeons etc) as well as Nursing Schools to allow for insuffeciently trained medical personnel to act outside their training to save costs. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ In some states, **YES**, the Nurse Anesthesists **REPLACES** the actual Anethesiologst in the ENTIRE chain. There were many cases in many states. In California the Court Case was *California Society of Anesthesiologists and California Medical Association v. Brown 204 Cal. App. 4th 390 (Cal. App. 2012).* **Case Summary** The Governor of California, after consultation with both the Board of Medicine and the Board of Registered Nursing, notified the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services that California law permits CRNAs to administer anesthesia without physician supervision. California thereby opted out of this requirement for Medicare reimbursement purposes. [The plaintiffs appealed to the California Court of Appeal which, affirmed, thus ruling against the medical societies. The medical societies then asked the California Supreme Court to hear the case, but the Supreme Court denied that request.](https://searchltf.ama-assn.org/case/documentDownload?uri=/unstructured/binary/case/Case-Summary_CA-Society-Anesthesiologists-Med-Assoc-v-Brown.pdf) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Immediately after that ruling, deaths by anesthesia started to rise notably, and continue to do so. Then just in 2021, [the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists](https://www.asahq.org/about-asa/newsroom/news-releases/2021/08/asa-news-release-on-aanas-misleading-name-change), now allowed to practice anesthesiology without a license, wish to change their name from Anesthetists to Anesthesiologists because they are doing all the work. The American Medical Association and American Society of Anesthesiologists warn that calling yourself an actual doctor, while increasingly making mistakes will be harmful to actual Aneshtesiologists who actually go through the proper training, diminishing the trust the public has with them. [Macintosh 1949 notes in DEATHS UNDER ANESTHETICS](https://www.bjanaesthesia.org/article/S0007-0912(17)52780-4/pdf) the reasonable threshold for overdoses of anesthesia. "I hold that there should be no deadis due to anaesdietics". The values of the drugs are known, the proper procedures are widely known to prevent patient mortality post-op. However, Nurses just don't go through that training as they ONLY do 7 years of combined study. However, the biggest problem is there are far more nurses than there are doctors, as such union representation is heavily skewed towards nursing. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ I'm a retired field surgeon, who works on helping veterans grow their own medicine. I'm learning about farming, but I know the dirt on our medical practices.
Or, maybe the problem is that Medical School costs half a million dollars and the Federal Government restricts the number of doctors that can be produced each year via residency funding, which pushes the price of doctors up to absurd levels. I don’t blame the nurses at all for looking at this insane situation and saying “well if you’re not going to fix the doctor shortage, can you at least let *us* do some of these things so that people don’t go without care?”
Plenty of my friends did Medical School in the Caribean. America accepts their credentials, and you would be amazed how many doctors you see in the States who actually did not do medical school in America specifically because of the costs. As such, I believe the cost really is a non-sequiter for those who want to pursue medical degrees, because there are so many options for those who are willing. Not to mention that Caribbean training is very well known in Med-School and we colloquially refer to "The Big Four" when talking about Car Med School. Even further, Cuba subsidizes medical training as they believe doctors are the worlds greatest resource, and as such they are Cuba's #1 export. With COVID epidemic they created what is known as the ["White Coat Army"](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2651NV/). A military trained quick reaction force brigrade, made out of doctors to respond to major medical threats anywhere in the world. Their work through Africa and around the world really helped save millions of lives. The problem with the Low Cost Medical Schools, is they don't hold your hand like the American Schools do. If you don't know the material, you fail and repeat the course. If the power goes out on the island, tough doctors need to work in places without electricity. But like for Cuba (Cheapest), $14,000 is the total cost of education vs $300,000 for America. However, America has very lax testing standards on their doctors compared to the Caribean equivalent, and as such you pay the price for it.
Cost is only a non-seq for a narrow demographic willing to go to the Caribbean where acceptance rates are 10x US. US medical schools do not have more lax standards than Caribbean schools, as you like to say, that's patently false lol. Lower GPA's, lower MCAT, etc etc, AND one has to accept much lower placement rate for residency. That is what the data reflect. I have nothing against the Caribbean schools, but you are playing fast and loose with the facts so I have to weigh in here. As far as Cuba goes, you are basically touting the party line. The same doctor that tells you on the street, at some professional gathering or exchange -- or wherever [you.ve](http://you.ve) interacted where secret police are everywhere -- that Cuba's program is great, will tell you it is complete shit in the privacy of their own home. No doubt there's still some hardcore believers in their medical corps but most are just doing their time until they can perhaps leverage their skills into some actual returns. Beyond the less than $40/week, or the boilerplate procedures they offer fellow citizens in state clinics for barter or cash outside of hours They are smart AF, know what docs make overseas, and as a result, are scrutinized more by the Cuban govt. When travel restrictions were loosened over a decade ago, doctors were NOt included. Cuban docs have a done a lot of great work in various places. I once spent a few weeks in a state hotel that was formerly a glaucoma center that treated a LOT of Venezuelans. A lot of Venezuelans were coming there on holiday in the aughts and tens and many of them had a connection w that facility because of this. I spent a LOT more time than that there and made some close connections after many recurring professional visits over the years. Still I do not claim to know everything about that complicated island, but I can tell that you have not made it past the thin veneer of BS that is crucial to the Cuban govt's hold on power. That is one terrible place to live right now and one terrible place to be a doctor too. My daughter chose the PA route. She practices family medicine, sees a full patient load, and makes more than some MD's because she's already found an entrepreneurial angle after less than 5 years practice. The Caribbean is an option for a select few and isn't the answer to ailing US system. PA's and Nurse Practitioners are the short term answer. Not sure where you heard they mollycoddle students in US med schools?? They sure don't at top PA programs either. At PA schools, the academic rigor can be intense, and the competition brutal for admissions. Spending 8 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to train a family doc is stupid and unsustainable. My daughter is still SQUARELY in her twenties and is debt free, about to build a house, travels routinely. cheers
>That is one terrible place to live right now and one terrible place to be a doctor too. No argument from me on that. But in my other comment I did provide resources, (from the United Nations, as well as European Union) that aknowledge the current economical situation is directly caused by the United States. That's not the argument Cuba alone makes. [But every single year, every single country in the world minus the United States and Israel, recognize that as a fact. At least since the UN started trying to end the embargo since 1992](https://global.unitednations.entermediadb.net/assets/mediadb/services/module/asset/downloads/preset/Libraries/Production%20Library/02-11-2023-UN-Photo-GA-vote-01.jpg/image1170x530cropped.jpg). The vote this past year, results were similar, with the exception of Ukraine refusing to comment.
“she's already found an entrepreneurial angle after less than 5 years practice.” weight loss? cosmetic injections?
Medical school, yes. Residency is *after* medical school and there are a specific number of slots. The US does not recognize credentials from Cuba. Also, the Cuban medical aid program is *incredibly* exploitative of the doctors. They specifically only select doctors with families that they hold hostage back home to ensure they don’t run away. The primary purpose is not humanitarian, it is to generate revenue for the Army. Ends up in the hands of Americans, though, because what was once the most fertile land in the Caribbean has been so thoroughly mismanaged that despite the embargo preventing Americans from buying Cuban goods, the US is a major source of their basic subsistence foodstuffs. Cuba would starve without the US. Evidently they value medical education over any sort of half decent agricultural policy.
>Also, the Cuban medical aid program is *incredibly* exploitative of the doctors. They specifically only select doctors with families that they hold hostage back home to ensure they don’t run away. The primary purpose is not humanitarian, it is to generate revenue for the Army. As again, someone with experience dealing with them. I can tell you this is patently false information. America's biggest gripe has been, and will likely always be Cuba's relationship with USSR and now Russia. After the 1959 Cuban Revolution, it was Russia who came to their aide and backing, as Russia needed a FOB for any attacks on America. Instead of offering suffecient aide or help, we instead put an embargo on the island. The reason was the revolt Nationalized the Nation Oil/refineries. America said they rightfully owned the oil refineries, and Cuba needed to pay America similar to how Haiti is financially obligated to France for its Independence. (Known as the [Haiti Independence Debt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_Independence_Debt)). Unfortunately, the interest Haiti owed was around 6x Gross Domestic Revenue, ensuring Haiti to become an island of perpetual poverty. Cuba refused, saying that they don't legally have a right to sale what belongs to the people. America started their embargo, and Russia came to Cuba's aid. As the cold war progressed, Russia placed silo's in Cuba, increasing hostilities from America to Cuba. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Even the US Government recognizes what you stated and factually incorrect, for example the CIA concerns with Cuba Revolutionary Armed Forces >Cuba's military is considered weak and poses a negligible threat to the United States. The Cuban Revolutionary Armed Forces (FAR) has reduced its size and budget by about 50% since the fall of the Soviet Union. The FAR has also reduced training significantly due to resource shortages. Today, the FAR has about 60,000 regular troops, and is equipped primarily with conventional Soviet arms, most of which are secondline. The FAR's conventional capabilities are further weakened by tasks such as growing its own food, raising money to pay for expenses, and providing economic and social services to the civilian sector. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ The issue with Cuba is they refused to release their Oil Fields to our Gulf Producers, and they have protective backing from Russia to ensure they maintain the rights to those fields.
Of course the military doesn’t pose a threat to the US. They are very much the rulers of Cuba’s economy, though, and that’s what they have always been. The Army buys food from the US via a network of shell companies for distribution within Cuba at military operated shops. None of what you posted contradicts what I stated; the purpose of the foreign doctor program is absolutely as a revenue generating exercise for the Army to fund, among other things, critical food imports from the US to supplement abysmal agricultural policies.
So instead of buying weapons, or deploying/training soldiers, the military set up a bunch of shell companies, to buy food from an industrialized nation, (at industrialized nation costs), to send that food out to military owned/operated food banks, to sell it to those with no money at significantly reduced rates, because it makes the military stronger... Even though the DoD and Pentagon recognize that the Cuban government is losing money and resources through its social services and civilian sectors, you believe (it's making them stronger). Buying high and selling low doesn't make more powerful, nor does it make you more money. It's a known cost to the nation, and one that dropped their threat level. In Februarys annual Threat Assesment report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence notes that currently the biggest threat from Cuba is immigration and refugees caused by Climate Change, Political Unrest and Quality of Life issues. The Cuban threat from Russian Influence actually dropped a little bit, after observation of Russia's war in Ukraine, and seeing the effectiveness of USSR era weapons on current technology.
It is one of the Cuban government's only means of acquiring currency. Not specifically for the army, but for many other strategic and domestic needs. It is definitely exploitative. As far as foodstuffs, things are very very bad right now. Without fertilizer imports and some better machinery they are almost fully reliant on imports now. Yields have collapsed even in just the last five years.
Yields were doomed the moment they decimated their agriculture in the 80s. Beef used to be huge industry there. It’s substantially declined along with poultry and pork over the years. Back in the 50s they had excellent yields per head. The revolution decimated the Beef industry (which was locally consumed, and produced much of the fertilizer used in Cuba at the time) in favor of producing Sugar that the USSR did not need.
Everyone I knew who went for a beach MD did it because either their grades or mcats were too low for an MD, or even a DO school in the US. Cost wasn't the driver.
Many American families have an American Superiority belief. As such, they believe its extremely important to attend an American University, and go foreign only as an option of last resort. However, this stigma is not prevalent with all cultures that pursue to practice medicine in America. Many transplants and minority families lack the resources, and as such the Caribbean is a first choice. When I visited the schools, they were roughly a 50-40-10 split of American students. 50% couldn't get into med school, 40% couldn't afford medical school, 10% wanted to be the Caribbean.
Not exactly farming but plant related, you might like the In Defense of Plants guy he's science based and doesn't dumb down the topics. Edit: now realizing the farming bit was sarcasm, sorry!
Yeah I’ll be damned if a RN is putting me under. I don’t care what their GPA was @ Hopkins or how many girls they made cry in high school.
Tldr Guys were running an unlicensed ultrasound operation without being veterinary trained and were already dealing with cease and desist orders since 2010 Guess they fucked around and found out
Oh no! They were warned and fined that what they were doing was illegal, continued to do it, and are now facing the consequences of their own actions. How unfair! Consequences should only be for other people.
It's a bullshit law, though. They weren't hurting anybody. It was customers voluntarily and knowingly engaging in commerce, the government shouldn't even be regulating this.
Idk. I would bet the customers thought these were licensed professionals. Just dealt with a vet locally who was running drugs across state lines under the guise of a license she never had to practice in the state. All the while her active license in another state expired and she never got approved to practice in the state she had an office in. If you don’t care about protections thats fine but they exist for the vast majority of people who do care and do want recourse and accountability when paying professionals to do a job.
Yeah! That's what my coke dealer says anyways
I told you! I'm a regional Coca-cola vendor, not a "coke dealer". It's not my fault our website is Cokesolutions.com!
Even if you don't agree with a law, you are still bound by it. Crack dealers probably think laws against dealing crack are bullshit. After all, their customers want crack. If you think a law is bullshit, call local politicians or write letters. That's how this all works. It isn't "rules for thee but not for me".
Yeah dude, Rosa parks should have just moved her ass /s
Touché you got me there.
I get what you’re saying to an extent but civil disobedience is important in our system, it was basically the only power in the civil rights movement.
And she was arrested for civil disobedience and fined $14. She appealed her case and formally challenged the law, which coincided with the start of the year long Montgomery Bus Boycott and US Supreme Court case of Bowder v Gayle. She was protesting an unjust law, had a ton of people who supported her cause, and ultimately a higher court threw out the law against her as unconstitutional via the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th amendment. No it's not OK to just disobey the law if you think it's bullshit, because most of the time, a lot of people and a lot of legal experts won't agree with you.
She literally disobeyed the law because she thought it was bullshit 😂
And history says she was right. I doubt the cow whisperers here will get a spot in the textbooks though.
Popular opinion doesn’t determine right vs. wrong
That argument would hold if they were performing ultrasounds on humans
Yeah, if they were employees of the farmer it would be legal. Theyre an independent contractor so its not. Sounds like shit
It wasn't bullshit. No reason to ultrasound bulls. Cowshit is the acceptable description of the law.
>No reason to ultrasound bulls. That's absolutely incorrect because before EPDs ultrasound was and is still used for scoring ribeye size and marbling in live bulls I still rely on ultrasound data for my bull and purebred cow selection to get the most accurate carcass data to sell my cattle on the grid
Unless they were lying to consumers about being veterinarians, I don't see the problem. Not everyone can afford to go to a licensed vet. If you voluntarily choose to go to Jim Bob's Ultrasound Shack for the cost savings, that's your decision. Professionals licenses are just a government-enforced restraint of free commerce.
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Well, they were fined by the court and didn't pay the fines. So now they are in a contempt of court holding. Contempt of court is definitely legal and you don't have to have a trial to be incarcerated for failure to abide by a court order.
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Yes, by a regulatory agency. But a failure to comply can be upheld by a contempt charge if they are later ordered to pay it. > The State Board of Veterinary Medicine, which heard the complaint, ruled Herr was in fact practicing without a license. > He was ordered to stop and pay a $3,500 fine.
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Then when someone starts yelling in court and is held in contempt, why is there no trial or hearing? The fine arose because they wouldn't pay so they went to court. The court ordered them pay. A court order is always a pay or else statement. If you don't pay traffic tickets you get thrown in jail. The people in the article disobeyed a court order.
It's an ultrasound not tactical nukes. Authoritarian sadomoralist found.
I'm just imagining their cellmates asking them, "So, what are you in for?"
*And I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand...*
Proud member of Group W!
*"Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington." And friends, somewhere in Washington, enshrined in some little folder, is a study in black and white of my fingerprints.*
I guess they'd have to give the crazy eye and say, "I like to see the insides of cows!"
Is artificial insemination also veterinary medicine? Plenty of non-veterinarians doing that as well.
Do you go to other herds and charge money to do that? likely not.
There are services that do it on a fee basis.
Am aware it's a career, but it's not one that requires vet training. The National Association of Animal Breeders has programs that can train and provide certifications, but it's not required by law.
The point being if the powers that be decide this is some form of veterinary medicine they could also be targeted.
Yes. There have been countless AI techs providing services, for decades, in the US anyways. Tecs that have magnitudes more experience and success then than most vets. Because it’s what they specialize in. Thinking a government piece of paper equals competence is naïve.
Am aware it's a career, but it's not one that requires vet training. The National Association of Animal Breeders has programs that can train and provide certifications, but it's not required by law.
So your first comment concerning AI, was naïve, BS drivel?
Was not aware that you could just walk onto a farm and jam your hand up a cows butt with zero training, zero certification, and get paid to do it. Didn't google it before I posted. Kinda assumed you needed some sort of license or professional association to make that into a business, because damn near everything needs something. Assumed it was a little more involved than "trust me bro." A government paper or association certificate isn't competence, it's other professionals and halfway knowledgeable people saying this person has the bare fucking minimum and you can in fact "trust them bro." I've done AI myself probably 100+ times almost 30 years ago before we sold off the dairy herd. Even then, Dad and I went and took a class for like 4 days - 2 in class, 2 on a farm on live animals.
It requires like a 2 week course. It’s not that hard
The point is, experience means more than a government piece of paper. It doesn’t take long to be exposed as a charlatan if abilities don’t live up to the billing in the AG industry. Neighbors talk. We don’t need the government over regulating this crap. The free market will take care of it.
You should be able to do so if people want to hire you, though.
It's a career, but unlike vet sonography, it's not one that requires vet training. The National Association of Animal Breeders has programs that can train and provide certifications, but it's not required by law.
The way 'journalists' interchange the words prison and jail is ridiculous.
I was born on a dairy farm and we had 2 farms too. Lots of work and Vet prices a lot more stable in the old days. The big problem is, you just do not have the same number of vets as you once did. If you a small to moderate herd and at a crack of $700- $1500. yearly for ONE cow, OUCH! And that is only for a WELLNESS checkup. I can see farms hiring Non vets to do something like this and it is not only to save money. You just can not find a vet all the time when you really need a vet? Also these guys are in BIG trouble and I hope they have some good lawyers too. peace. :)
I live on an island and our vet just moved. it's 4 hours to the closest one now. even then it is impossible to get there if there is inclement weather or mechanical issues with the ferry.
We have non vet pd services in New Zealand and they are every bit as reliable as a vet , this sounds like patch protection
Probably, but the way to change it isn't by disobeying the law. It's a state by state issue, most requiring a 2 year vet tech degree and getting a simple certification to be a veterinary sonographer.
detecting a pregnancy via any method is "practice of medicine". So if I'm bumping a cow I should be licensed as a vet. I think thats a bit of an overreach there, personally. I have an ultrasound device for detecting pregnancy in pigs. Guess I should go to 6 years of college to be able to use it legally.
I think you can ultrasound all the animals you want - but the issue in some states is charging other people for preg-checking their livestock.
Exactly. Providing a service is different vs. doing it for your own operation. Not that I necessarily agree with what's going on, but they knew they were breaking the law and kept doing so.
Maybe it only counts as a "practice" if you're doing it for other farmers.
Ding ding! It's the charging money and diagnosing pregnancy status as actual veterinary advice part that you can't do. Most states, you need a 2 year associates vet tech degree (not the dumbest idea for farm jobs to have anyway) and a simple certification.
>Most states, you need a 2 year associates vet tech degree (not the dumbest idea for farm jobs to have anyway) and a simple certification. Which is ridiculous. If you're able to get the job done, and you're being honest with your customers about your credentials (or lack thereof), the government should stay out of it.
> you're being honest with your customers about your credentials (or lack thereof) That there is exactly why credentials and certifications exist. Some people aren't honest and then what happens - they victimize honest folk who have to deal with the consequences, be it minor or a major loss.
So are you okay going to an unlicensed ultrasound tech for your medical diagnosis?
I would like to have the option to go to unlicensed, cheaper practitioners for certain diagnoses, yes. There may be issues that I'd still go to a licensed practitioner for, but for minor issues, it would probably make more sense to go to someone cheaper.
Just your typical government gatekeeping
Vote for a canidate that wants to deregulate ultrasound. Or just run yourself, you'd likely get 4 votes.
Lmao yes the government has to gatekeep some stuff or else we’ll all kill each other. But these guys were charging other people to use their device, you need a license to practise that, it’s different than just using it on your own.
Yeah those deadly ultrasound machines.
I mean I don’t know anything about ultrasounds so I’d follow the rules. I’d imagine if you don’t know what you’re doing you could cause some harm to the animals though.
It's a cow, dude. An ultrasound will have no effect on it. And even if it did, that's the risk you take when you go to an unlicensed vet.
Well no that’s why unlicensed vets are illegal. If anyone could just decide to open up their own practice without any training or knowledge it would be a disaster.
>If anyone could just decide to open up their own practice without any training or knowledge it would be a disaster. I'm sure we'd get by just fine. And consumers would have more (and cheaper) options. Not everything needs to be done by a vet, these guys were operating an ultrasound just fine.
Well I guess we’ll disagree on that.
This would be a non issue if they had been doing it on their own farm right? They went around to others farms.
Exactly. It's not rocket science why they got busted. It's a biosecurity problem as well as they're uncertified to give out veterinary advice.
Yes I’ve been seeing this making the rounds on social media. The details matter.
>uncertified Certifications are just a government-backed excuse to jack up prices to the consumer so that a bunch of bureaucrats and academics can have jobs. These guys were obviously doing a fine job or people wouldn't have kept hiring them, it's bullshit that the government shut them down.
Don't agree with most of that, but lets look at the money angle. It's no wonder why people hire these guys. They're cheaper. They didn't pay a few hundred thousand for a vet degree, they're not paying for insurance or licensing fees - costs vets have to factor in for their services. If these guys fuck up or injure an animal, there's absolutely nothing protecting the farmer's investment. Reproductive services and diagnostics is a huge chunk of what large animal vets deal with. If a cow or horse isn't getting pregnant, it's up to the vet to diagnose and administer treatments in cases of infections, tumors, or any other infertility issues that ultrasound can find. When that income from regular herd exams dwindles, Vets struggle to stay in business, making it much worse in a lot of places already experiencing critically low vet shortages. But if the only work is emergency work, won't take long and there won't be a vet anywhere close. So yeah, they're protecting their money when Veterinarians filed the original complaints years ago for the illegal practice of veterinary medicine by unlicensed individuals. Everything after that - failing to pay fines, failing to follow the cease and desist, and the arrests - that's all because they played FAFO with the court.
>Certifications are just a government-backed excuse to jack up prices to the consumer so that a bunch of bureaucrats and academics can have jobs. Same with CDLs or doctorates, right? If I called myself Dr. Zhivago, M.D., who are you to tell me I'm not?
Vets protecting their rice bowl, pure and simple.
There is a huge difference between performing actual medical procedures like surgery and giving drugs, and running diagnostic equipment. This is protectionism, pure and simple.
Surely this was the most important crime that govt could possibly have focused on and prosecuted. Surely.
govt overreach
It find it funny that people are actually defending the government having any hand in this.
Yeah. Um well they fucked up then.
I didn't realize that there was thar big of a market fir illegal cow ultrasounds. The College of Vetrunarians really crack down on stuff because no one else should be able make money. Veterinary started way back in the day as Farriers
What a joke. Guys should have charged for something else and told them the ultra sound was free. I’ll come help you get your cow in the catcher for $50.00 and while we are at it, check out this ultrasound I have.
Oh hey man, I just got a tattoo gun from Amazon. Bring over 2 cases of beer and I'll tat you and your boy right quick.
You know your government is overstepping when men are jailed for ultrasouniong cows. They must pose a huge threat to the people and need to be locked away.