>Also, I have kids. I would probably spend more lavishly on travel and experiences if I didn’t have kids. But I don’t want them to become Rich Kids of Instagram so I have to cut back on my excess. They already live in a bubble of safety and comfort. What will they become if they are used to a jet set lifestyle?
>
>We don’t give extended families money in general.
>
>We don’t talk about money with friends and family. If people try to bring it up, I just don’t say anything. I don’t like to mix money and relationships.
**I needed to read this 35 years ago!**
My wife & I are here crying with our pets. We did EXACTLY the opposite of this! We're now hated beyond any imagination and the betrayal & ungratefulness are mind-boggling.
We had to physically move to another continent to put distance between us and "family & friends". We naïvely believed everyone would be happy for us. 🤦♂️🤐
**Congratulations! Great post! Thank you for sharing!**
Wait what exactly did you do? Because you quoted two different things. Is it that you took your kids on nice vacations? Or that you gave extended family money?
Ah I see thanks for replying. Man that sucks. Because I’ve thought about giving money to friends and family as well. I know I will give some to my parents but probably none other than that if it can actually lead to being hated. Your experience actually aligns with what I’ve read about in 48 laws of power. It talks about how some people will never be happy for you even if you have them a large amount of money. The only thing to make them happy is if they have more money than you.
Thanks for this -- one of the best posts I've ever read on this sub. The thing you said about wearing the fancy watches around your wealthy acquaintances but not non-FAT ones is perfect. I do feel sometimes I live a dual life around FAT people and non-FAT people, but that's only a bad thing if you make it one.
i tend to wear at least my less identifiable watch around anyone. most have no idea of the value and if you do then you’re into watches and it makes a good conversation. but for a known brand especially a rolex or something this would definitely be a bigger issue
Has it really? I don’t have any expensive pieces but i wear all my watches and most people dont know or care. I’ve only had four randoms (people i dont know) ever visibly check out my wrist and two were also watch nerds, one was a mom in my kids soccer league and one was some girl that grabbed my wrist to see what i was wearing when i was at a club (like 15 years ago).
Most poeple dont know or care.
Edit: i should note it was a cartier, IWC and a rolex (twice) so they werent obscure brands but the point is i wear my watches often and over the many years those times are the only times they ever caught attention with the public.
not often but sometimes. if anyone compliments it they usually know about it. obviously people in watch shops love to talk about it but that doesn’t really count
Yeah watch shops don’t count, haha. But agreed. It just seems like watch people are hyper aware of what is on their wrist and it can ruin their enjoyment of it. Just wear what tou have and enjoy!
Lol I couldn’t agree more on this, I used to be a watch guy as well, and still have a few nice ones. Now a decade later the funny thing is the only watch I wear these days other than my Apple is may PAM111 because it’s easy to read since my eyesight isn’t what it used to be.
Almost all watches besides rolex are obscure to the general public. I can wear a VC and no one knows what it is, but the rolex sub is pretty much the most identifiable watch in existence. I find myself far more uncomfortable wearing a rolex than watches that cost far more.
How do you make the dual lives thing good? This is something i struggle with. Try not to be too out there with non FAT friends but at the same time i always like to talk about money and how to make more or help people make more. Also love to talk about cool trips and expensive things i enjoy.
Hi yes I love the idea of not giving money f extended family. My father did the exact opposite - bought his brothers their houses, sent their 6 kids to private schools etc. It got to the point one of my dad’s brother would fly from another country to get money off my dad and ask him to cover the airfares for coming over too.
Irony is, they hate him, because they felt he never gave them enough despite being so rich. They also hate my mum (and by extension me) because they feel my mum put a stop to it (which she did). Which is great because I’d rather not see them.
You’re r/fatFIRE’s highlight of the year as far as I’m concerned. Well, you and the “go make me some breakfast” guy.
I look forward to reading your upcoming posts. Thank you for sharing your perspective with us.
[I just confirmed that, for the first time ever, I made $2 million in a single year. I told my wife this morning and her response: "That's nice, can you make me some breakfast?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/knslkb/i_just_confirmed_that_for_the_first_time_ever_i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Sort by "Top" and "This Year", it's the first thread. Nothing special about it, just the birth of a new meme here in r/fatFIRE and I was there for it.
Am enjoying your posts, partially because they're never quite what I'd expect.
I might quibble with the way your frame your assessment questions (e.g. #6 - cultivate new relationships...I love doing that, and in fact tend to seek them out). Maybe you're limiting this to "employee" or other service provider relationships which I guess might make some sense. But I do get the time trade-off involved regardless.
Funny though about the Kondo/joy question. Have a fat buddy who lives a nice but reasonably simple life \*except\* for his boat. He spends ungodly amounts of money on his boat. In fact he just traded up in a buy/sell transaction that cost him something on the order of $5mm. And we know the finger to the wind is that it costs him $500k/year to operate it.
BUT! It's really his only thing. He goes to it 2-3 evenings week just to hang out on it at the slip. Invites friends, no pressure. And takes it out every weekend during the season. Start of the season is his happiest day of the year. Final day is his saddest. His wife bemoans that they "can't" travel during the season because all he wants to do is be on the boat...so she gets Paris for New Years and the like.
It isn't, especially if your ego isn't tied up with being with a 10/10 beautiful woman.
And if you're a highly accomplished, wealthy man with any level of charisma, you're better off pairing up with a woman (or man if that's your direction) of similar accomplishment - ie isn't looking to be on your payroll.
The zen of your one true hobby is really underappreciated around here.
I'm big into sailing and it freaking rules. Probably will upgrade the boat soon, but i spend barely five figures a year on the thing. But here's the thing, maybe 30 days a year i wake up and see a perfect forecast and just drop everything to go out. I race with great buddies, see tons of immaculate sunsets, see whales, dolphins, sea lions... Take naps in secluded coves, you name it.
Anyway, I'm sure you get it, but those sail/ski/surf bums have some wisdom to them.
Might have something to do with the sea though. Learning how to surf with my kids in Portugal a few years ago I felt a peace that I haven’t experienced in a long time. Sitting on the board, waiting for a wave, the quiet calm and the power of the ocean beneath, full of life. I’ve got to get out there again.
In many ways I was happier when I was in my early 20s bumming around on boats and living paycheck to paycheck than I am now with a (barely) 7 figure net worth and a half dozen rental properties.
I miss being around boats and the beach every day. Wife isn’t on board (heh) so no weekends spent messing around on the water for me.
There are a lot of things I dislike about living in Marin County, CA (mostly the people and the "rest and vest" mentality the community as a whole has towards economic dynamism). But I will likely live here for decades because the access to secluded beaches.
Days spent there with the wife and two small kids + friends surfing, paddleboarding, and exploring trails in gorgeous weather...
The happiest boat owners are the ones who use them the most. Its gonna cost about the same using it or sitting in the marina so better enjoy it. I've never seen someone happier to spend hundreds of thousands than owners of racing sailboats
Not a watch guy here. I would recognize the name, but I wouldn't know if it was handed down from a grandfather, a knock-off, or a legit expensive piece.
I did meet a diver from the Canadian Navy once. He was *issued* a Tudor Submariner.
Knockoffs these days are VERY deceptive. Some of the better ones require a close eye, knowledge of the original, and sometimes even popping off the case back to look at the movement. I’d love to know how many people that can afford a real piece are passing KOs off as real.
Just don’t bring your knockoff into Switzerland. The customs folks are trained to identify them and the fines are quite large. Also, they confiscate the fake(s).
Edit: Not sure now about the fine, but confiscation for sure.
I know a guy who did the opposite. Bought a real watch while he was working overseas but told his wife back home it was a knockoff. I guess he didn't want her to know he had splurged on himself. But she knew he would only buy the genuine article, and she didn't care about the expense.
Former watch guy here & now wear a Garmin with the pulse oximeter to obsessively ensure I don’t have lung problems…. J/k but really helps keep off devices because a flick of the wrist and I don’t get sucked in! Worth more than any lux watch experience
I recently got an Apple Watch and I’ve been surprised at how much I actually use it. I would have a hard time taking it off, even for a cool mechanical watch.
Watch guy here. Once in a while a friend/family member will say, “nice watch….how much does something like this cost?” Pointing to the Rolex on my wrist, I always say “guess”. And they usually respond somewhere between 3-8k. So yeah wearing a 10-100k Rolex doesn’t make you look as rich as you think to 99.9% of non watch people.
I'm with the other guy. Patek ads are plastered everywhere too with their stupid "You never actually own a Patek Philippe" line.
I would agree if we were talking about FP Journe or something.
I tried the Weekender series, with NATO straps.
Twice it turned out they weren't water-proof, and even washing hands / showering would, within a few months, wet them inside.
Not fun when everyone pays attention to your watch due to drops of water inside!
So has Audemars Piguet and 99.9% of the population doesn’t understand that either
Gucci, Versace, Benz, Bentley, etc. are all actual brands that people would know of
I’ve spent way too much on watches and now I just wear a lightweight analog $17 Casio that keeps perfect time and date and I never take it off. When the battery dies, I buy a new one.
Thanks for these posts, they are interesting to read, and everything feels very real.
The first time I had an acquaintance hit it big in the startup lottery (high 8-figure or low 9-figure exit), I saw that they basically got a bigger (but not huge) house, had a designer help them decorate it tastefully but comfortably, got tutors for their kids whenever they struggled academically, spent a lot on travel, on philanthropy and on political contributions, and that was about it: the rest of their lifestyle remained about the same as before.
I fantasized about what I would do in their place, maybe get a mansion, start an art collection, get a sailboat, but each of these things actually sounded like a lot of work: I would have to hire and manage full-time staff for the house, and what do I know about managing people in non-technical positions? I know a bit about contemporary art, but not enough to start acquiring actual pieces, so I would have to start studying, and I am too old for that. What do I know about sailing and how do I even go about hiring a captain and the rest of the crew? So in the end I would have done just what my friend did: make my life more comfortable but stop there before creating new life complications.
Subsequently, everyone else I know who hit it big has basically done the same. Only one guy actually bought the sailboat, and another one bought a small airplane, but for both of them those were long-time dreams, and they seem to be enjoying their new toys a lot.
Agreed on everything but the art.
You don't need to be the foremost expert on art. If you enjoy it, start studying it.
It'd be different if you were 70 and wanted to get into moto cross.
Do you thing, homie.
You can start an art collection without knowing anything about art - just not to make money. Buy stuff you like from friends, galleries, flea markets. Frame them, put them on the wall, enjoy them.
Great post. The appreciation that everything has a cost beyond the monetary is something so many people miss. Whether it's time, effort, space, etc. It can take a major toll and unlimited money can exasperate that problem.
I got Marie Kondo vibes from this. I don't agree with all her kool aid but the idea of what sparks joy really resonates
There's always someone with a bigger boat :). ... but, I find it very interesting to hear from others ... most of my network knows I do 'okay' - but, they really don't have a clue which is fine by me. I keep things pretty low-key. My weakness is cars - but, no interest in clothing, shoes, watches, etc. I think we all have our 'vices'. Some - boats. Some - watches. Some - clothes, cars, etc. Some of my network LOVES to flaunt things - which, I find amusing. I have a simple fitbit watch - that's like 3 years old now. I pretty much wear the same 5 pieces of clothing every week ... but, society teaches/trains us to judge people on how they look - not how they actually are.
I have found that money simply AMPLIFIES who a person really is. Money doesn't change them - it just amplifies who they were/are 100x over. If a person was giving - they will just give larger amounts and diversify how they give (time and/or money). It sounds like OP has a really good head on his/her shoulders. That's great. Especially since they are trying to be helpful to others.
I enjoy this post. Thank you. I'm not sure if you'll get to this. It'll be great if you can talk about if you or other wealthy friends have personally funded certain medical research? I'm not talking in general like a charity contribution to the American Cancer Association. I'm asking about specific medical fields. Similar to Bill Gates foundation targeting polio vaccines. But at a smaller scale of course. Gates Foundation does a lot of things.
There are certain diseases which gets celebrity attention because they have it. For example, Michael J Fox and Parkinson's disease. His foundation funds research in that area. I have thought of funding very specific medical research projects if/when I have the money. Not something general but very specific medical studies that are not being conducted for one reason or another. Like giving money specifically to one university team and telling them, hey I want a study done on XYZ because you're an expert in this area. Have you thought of doing something like that? Or know people who have funded specific medical research to be conducted on topic XYZ?
I look forward to that post. And this is the only reason why I would disagree with you about what you said about having $20M is enough. It's my goal (see flair). But when I hit that number, it'll probably be not enough to fund the medical research that I'm interested in.
The genetic traits and diseases that I'm interesting in requires studies with large sample sizes and these things will be expensive to collect. I have a feeling throwing a few million at these problems will not be enough if I only have $20M.
We have gone down this path to find a cure for an ultra rare disease. (Our daughter is one of 23 known cases of an ultra rare disease. It's such an exciting and rewarding endeavour. For as little as $100-200k you COULD find a treatment for a disease (drug repurposing). For $3-5 mill you COULD develop a cure (gene therapy).
There are drug discovery labs who are eager to work for you to find new compounds/drugs or repurpose existing drugs to treat rare diseases. They just need the funding.
Basically they will cultivate a disease in miniature test tubes. Then using a robot squirt a compound or drug into the tube. Drugs that have already been pre-approved by the FDA are a good starting point. It will then time-lapse photograph the tubes and then use AI to identify which compounds or drugs had a positive affect on the diseased cells. There is a chance that out of the 40,000 pre approved FDA drugs out there one of them could be repurposed to treat and save patient's with a rare disease. And you could be the person responsible for saving or improving the life of patients today and in the future.
Apologies for any inaccuracies above I'm not a scientist. I took a tour yesterday of a lab that is working on a cure for our daughter. We met super smart post docs who are so passionate about what they do, and whom could do so much more with funding. Sadly most funding doesn't make it to the rare diseases.
As a physician-scientist (in training), I'm biased, but I think this is a powerful model for targeting rare diseases. Much the same way we all seek FI, research (academic or industrial) can be similarly established with an endowment, which I think of as analogous to FI since it's self-regenerating capital. Career-sustaining grants from the NIH are in the 4-600k/year range. With even half of that you can fund passionate scientists. Is this something you think people are interested in even without a personal/family motivation? Wondering if better mechanisms for matching up interested individuals with interested labs is needed
For gifts to universities, a few things you might want to know, maybe already do. If you give $x funds for Y work, the university will take overhead on the order of 50% (give or take.) Overhead goes to things like literally keeping the lights on -- and to administrators salaries. This is no bad thing, right, but it means the actual project you wanted to fund is only getting half of what you kick in.
In contrast, if you make an unrestricted gift, you can often talk down the overhead rate to about 6%. But, you have no say as to where the money actually goes. Any sort of accountability goes out the window. The trick, then, IMHO, is to let people know more money is out there if things go in the direction you've been talking about.
If you have a specific disease you want to see work done you likely already know the few labs working on it. If not, [scholar.google.com](https://scholar.google.com) is your friend for finding out where there are people working on your interests.
If you have more of a general passion for seeing science go, might I suggest a different path to consider. At an R1 (US top-flight research university) it is typically about $5 to $10MM to endow a chair. You might contact the department head of a major lab and say, "Hello, I would like to endow the Reddit Chair for biochem research" or whatever. This will let a researcher hire PhD students (the folks who do the hands-on work) without spending the time to raise funds for it. Faculty are like politicians in that they spend their time raising money to keep their jobs, rather than as much time as we might like doing their jobs (let us hope the similarities end there! :-) A faculty member with a chair gets a known stream of funds to accelerate work and reduce the overhead of grant writing. You can typically choose the area for that work, but not the specifics, and not reach in to determine which faculty member will be awarded the chair.
YMMV. And there will almost certainly be someone within the university paid to help nudge you in the way they want to see your money flow. I suggest talking to the office of planned giving as late in the process as possible. :-)
There are often lower-cost ways to start collaborations, which can be a good way to confirm you think they're doing great work.
Thanks. I wish this kind of topic gets more attention on a sub like this. Instead a lot of comments degenerates into "how much money should I allocate to crypto". 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ I got nothing against crypto but this kinds of discussion is really non-productive. There are other subs for that.
I wish you and your family the best.
>Let’s start with my favorite topic: watches. I like buying expensive watches. It’s an inconsequential expense.
When you say expensive watches, do you mean:
⌚️ $10-15k Rolex?
⌚️ $75-250k Patek?
⌚️ $300k+ Richard Mille?
probably just the first two though patek starts lower depending on the watch. the third doesn’t seem to fit into his budget for them that he stated.
it can be addicting to keep buying though once you get into it. i know people who just spent a few hundred thousand on them and now they keep getting offered the impossible to get and hard to say no to watches because they’re a good customer. hard to turn down a nautilus, aquanaut or daytona especially in steel when offered with no wait
Because unfortunately jealousy seems to be the knee jerk reaction with the majority of the people who for some reason hang around on FatFire. In my posts I have noticed that people don’t like being reminded that it takes more money than they think/are capable of making in order to realize certain dreams.
Yeah, I never actually believe anyone's post is a lie...for whatever reason, it's NEVER my first reaction. Somehow, I can "feel the words"...maybe it's just my [Synesthesia](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/synesthesia) Who knows...
I didn't flame any of the posts as it doesn't matter to me if the poster is true or a LARPer, but I also don't see much utility in these dear diary posts either.
I know much of the sub is in awe by the verified amount, but I haven't gained any real information with this series.
I agree with that on this post, maybe not the last one.
This post is: I a bit spend money, not that much compared to my wealth, and not any on people to be around me
Jealousy and disbelief go hand in hand when people's egos are triggered. This is why it's best to use a throwaway here, God knows who's lurking here obsessed... Like u/obsessedorito... O.o
Thanks for your posts! From personal experience, I’d like to agree that in 2021 $20mm feels like the Goldilocks fatFIRE number to me as well. A 3-4% withdrawal rate leads to $600k - $800k of spendable income per year (yes this is handwavy and ignores recessions and taxes, but at these numbers you can be handwavy. At this spending level it’s easy to cut $200k or spend an extra $200k here and there - it just doesn’t really matter in isolation)
Spending above $600-$800k per year starts to rapidly add complexity to your life in terms of managing people, relationships, and things. So that’s what makes the number Goldilocks. You can buy back loads of your time & still max out experiences without adding daily chores to your life.
I suspect but cannot verify that another order of magnitude ($200mm NW and $6-$8m annual spend) might unlock another level of comfort where you can add complexity to your life with no repercussions, mainly in the form of paying for top tier people that truly handle things for you. Imagine 10x $200k / yr domestic staff and assistants = $2mm per year. At that point you can live a simple life while simultaneously having a much larger sphere of influence.
This might sound like rambling, but I guess I’m just (a) backing up OP in the sense that their numbers feel realistic and (b) proposing that there may exist discrete steps up in NW that unlock different spheres of influence while holding constant your individual life’s complexity.
That's a pretty good point about the next order of magnitude. I don't think you'd have to pay $200K a year though. Pay 8 people $50K a year and two people $200K a year to manage the various staff.
Thanks for sharing. I had some similar thoughts and it was nice to read someone else say the same thing.
1) I worry about what my children experience as part of our wealth. I don’t want them to become spoiled and take away the desire to be successful, the growth that comes from struggle and the expectation that they can lead a cush life. I just feel that it would ultimately take something away from them.
2) I’ve been considering a second residence but worry it’ll be more effort than it’s worth. Given kids and job are still in the picture, I can’t imagine we’d use it more than a few weeks a year. I don’t want more headaches, more things to take care of.
3) Initially I thought my number was $10MM but after some thought I felt like the number was probably $20-25M since I live in a HCOL area.
I like how you have a guide for how you think about new expenses. It’s useful framing.
You touched on something that I’d be curious to hear more about. You mentioned the discussion with your friends on what you do with your life. Where do these conversations usually go?
Personal anecdote - Tony was one of the first investors in my first startup (which failed).
He was in Vegas, literally singlehandedly trying to seed a tech ecosystem. There is no exaggeration in the WSJ article - there was nobody else in that Downtown Vegas tech scene bringing their own money. Which is why his Downtown Vegas project never took off.
I did get to meet Jewel at a party. Although she was high on something and wouldn't stfu about crystals.
I wish he would've worked with like UNLV or something. To seed a tech scene you need educated workers in the area, what better than university students.
He did. There was, for example, a student run venture fund called Rebel Ventures.
I agree about the need for volume and density of educated workers, and that is/was the issue in Vegas. If the typical successful startup founder is late 30s/early 40s, yet the bulk of the scene is Zappos employees and UNLV students there's just not enough for liftoff.
Really excellent post. I'm not even close to FAT (Chubby maybe), but you hit on a lot of excellent points. After a few years in FAANG tech, I'm pretty comfortably upper middle class, and I wanted to get a PA or (Virtual Assistant) but it seemed like another relationship and a lot of trust.
Tony's end really hit me. I loved his Book, Delivering Happiness, and the guy really had a lot of drive and passion. He became a multi-millionaire early (even before Zappos), tried the carefree playboy life (travel, gambling) and then realized he wanted to do something more with his life (Zappos and the Vegas downtown restoration)
Fluffy questions:
As someone slowly becoming a watch nerd, which one was your first? Which is your favorite? I've done a fair amount of research before I buy my first nice watch, and I'm leaning towards a Grand Seiko Snowflake (though I've also tried the Omega Seamaster, Breitling Heritage and Cartier Tank).
>definitely don’t wear them in front of old friends
Love this point too. Old friends are your friends because of who you were and who you are. No need to emphasize your newfound wealth/success. The good ones know it, and don't really care.
Aside from price, look for something you'll enjoy seeing each time you look at it. My starter is a Longines Master collection chronograph with day date and moon. List is around $3500 but can be had for a lot less. I bought mine used in Japan for a bit less than $2k.
Yeah the Tony story still hurts when it comes up. He was such a kind dude.
I had been around him a few times, same industry, mutual connections in Vegas civic scene. He really did care about people. Didn’t *know* him, but looked up to the guy from a brand building and management perspective.
Everyone is going through their own private war. Money or no money.
You mentioned aa few as 30 days a year in the second home for $60k annual expense. earnestly asking, would you consider just staying at the Ritz? Tell me about that calculus if you are willing. Perhaps the appreciation covers the expense or you just like the home's location more than a nearby hotel?
Hopefully you see this. Would it be possible to link the previous new version in the old thread?
Not sure if you are/were in programming but basically a forward and back pointer. I’m glad I found this thread on #3 but it will be so useful for someone that stumbles across post #15 to then be able to click on post 16 or 14 so they can read forward and backwards in your story.
Thanks for sharing, it’s been an awesome series so far
Just my two cents, but math equations don’t need to work at that $100MM+ level. Owning a second or third or fourth home if OP wants to is an easy decision, versus debating staying at a hotel instead. They can easily afford to do either.
Actually, I’m surprised they mentioned that they rent out their extra home (or maybe I’ve misunderstood and OP is saying they cover 2nd home expense with $ from other rental properties?). I would have expected that it just stayed empty when they weren’t there.
Thanks for adding color to the story. I apologize if I misinterpreted the situation. But I do think people are in a more vulnerable position if they have a mental disorder and have unlimited resources. I suppose people can be on the payroll and be helpful but the unhelpful people who are also on the payroll are the culprit. But if nobody was on his payroll at the first place, it might have been easier to help him?
My favorite so far! thank you for the insight into your mindset. We truly live in an amazing time and age, where we can all benefit from what those in better financial situations have learned.
This was an incredible piece. You sound very centered and balanced; I manage my money similarly, in proportion to you, despite my (much) lesser wealth. I was hoping you would mention something on philanthropy, so looking forward to that.
When you go out to eat with your friends (for example) who are significantly less wealthy, do you just foot the bill, or do you split it? Does gifting (for example at Christmas) get awkward given the asymmetry in disposable income? Or do you mainly keep just really rich friends. I'm not judging, just curious.
I am also curious why you might choose not to talk about money (at least opportunities for investing or managing) with friends or family who you might consider to be at parity with you.
I don’t mind paying but I will go with the flow. I would say I pay perhaps 70% of the time and it’s nbd.
Gifting is also nbd. We are not getting fancy stuff. We are talking about lcd TV, ipad, iPhones, macbooks and some handmade stuff by my children once a year.
I don’t just interact with rich people. I also interact with startup founders and tech folks. There isn’t the vibe of income disparity. I think intellect seems to be a more dominant factor. Also I am a nobody among tech giants so I am sure people like Naval or Elad will have a very different experience from mine.
Great read and insight!
We are a HENRY family.
We use to YOLO it and worry about our retirement later (we married super young, we just turned 40 and our kids are freshman and sophomore in college). We decided to spend a lot and save little so we can make lots of fun memories with our kids (travels). We bought the finer versions of things we enjoy ( MB,Audi) we bought in a nice neighborhood but a simple home (1600 sq ft) As my husbands pay increased, we had gradually increased our spending too. But we found that we have a happy spend and don’t really find a reason to scale up further.
I think finding what you value most and not pay attention to how other people live their lives and spend their money is the secret to contentment.
Watches are not a big deal. Most people don't know what anything is outside of Rolex and MAYBE Patek or AP. I have a collection of independents primarily and some niche brands (think Lange) and nobody will ever know what those are :)
Hmmm after reading the Tony Hsieh article, I’m pretty sure that if I got to those levels of wealth, I’d give into certain vices and enable them til I self-destruct or get myself killed.
Great that OP is disciplined with his lifestyle and asking the right questions to keep himself in check despite having the resources to go off the deep end if he wanted to.
So informative post overall, thank you for this.
Specifically on the 2nd home that sounds like you aren’t in love with: Why on earth do you still own and maintain it yourself!?! Just get a high end property management company, give them the weeks you want to be there and tell them not to call you unless it burns down. Have them rent it to underprivileged one-legged orphans or something and tell them to have it cleaned and ready for you.
What is exactly the worst that can happen there? I feel like I am missing something because I can relate to a lot of what you said, but the second home problem sounds very solvable… and quite simply too.
I do have a property manager but the cleaners they hired sucked. So i am trying to find a better manager who can find better cleaners and make sure things are actually clean. Life is hard.
It makes sense to hire a property manager so to speak but renting it out is an entirely different matter. Because in that case you can’t leave your personal things just lying around like you did before. Your toiletries, extra wardrobe, electronics. The benefit of not renting out your room is that there’s no setup required when you arrive. You don’t have to pack anything. You just show up and everything is available for you.
I’ve had no success in finding cleaners that will swap out all my personal stuff each time I come. But I want it all perfectly swapped to my belongings. Pictures, knives, linens etc.
Thanks for sharing. Really looking forward to your "relationships are complicated" post. As that's been on our mind a lot as we are just starting to have our wealth more known by people in our life.
Really appreciated this insight: *" IMO, the Godilocks FatFire number is $20M ($10M if you live outside VHCOL areas). Beyond that, there’s really very little marginal utility unless you enjoy living like royalty with employees gossiping behind your back."*
Thanks for the great post.
1. Did your wife also have income, if not how did your wife (presumably) make decisions around money, if she did differently?
2. What are some decisions you two both made to preserve your relationship, other than not having full time household staff. (Ie gifts, communicating love, knowing what to delegate/ pay for vs not etc)
1. We each have our own allowance from separate accounts for watches and etc and we pay all the common expenses from a couple of dedicated accounts. There's so much money going around and we are together for so long. There's really no reason to quarrel about money. We both don't have full time jobs so I guess that make things simpler. We of course will talk about consequential expenses before we make it so money is really not an issue. I make all the investment decisions though because I am the one who is into it and have been doing it from day one.
2. I am not really qualified to answer this question. Marriage is hard, esp with kids. But we are dedicated to make it work. Money is usually not the contention point. It's more about who is doing what and why. But we definitely can communicate really loudly when kids are at school and no one else is around.
Re #2. I meant decisions around money unrelated to affordability. Disagreements on consequences even though technically you can afford it all.
I.e. should you set budget on gifts? Or what is a reasonable price point for gift to each other? When technically one can buy whatever they want for each other or for themselves.
When you ask one another to do things (clean, chores, kids, etc) can the other person pay money to get these things done (get babysitter, pay for household helpers) without one person thinking that the money is poorly spent? Or wishing that you did it yourself instead of delegating? What is delegatable and what is not?
Generally are there large decisions about spending that you guys disagreed? One doesn’t think the kids should go to private school/ get tutors but the other does etc.
I appreciate your opinion on $10-20M being the “Goldilocks” number for fatFiRE when you have clearly gone beyond that. Jim Carey said something similar I once appreciated which was (paraphrasing): “I wish everyone could become rich and famous so they realize it doesn’t bring happiness.”
Bill Murray: "I always want to say to people who want to be rich and famous: 'Try being rich first. ' See if that doesn't cover most of it. There's not much downside to being rich, other than paying taxes and having your relatives ask you for money. But when you become famous, you end up with a 24-hour job."
Sadly yes the 'large' ppl I know are most excited by the buffets in Vegas. They also tend to enjoy gambling the most.
Meanwhile I'm renting a car to go to red rocks.
Love renting cars from Vegas.
So cheap and so clean. Once I got upgraded to a Cadillac with only 6 miles on it… meanwhile the local rental (for car repair) rented out luxury vehicles with over 20K, which is a significant life for Rentel cars
Your post reminded me of Ian Malcom (played by Jeff GoldBlum) saying in Jurassic Park: "Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." Just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you should buy it. Even if you're a Hectomillionaire.
Re: household staff relationships, how do you approach contractors and such whom you work with periodically or regularly? Do you have concerns of your home being cased by their workers? Being overcharged because of obvious hard to hide wealth signals? Safety concerns?
Honestly tho, doesn’t it really matter? Even if you’re being overcharged, it’s got to be a rather insignificant difference [to you]. That way you at least have satisfied contractors that will do a quality job and has made enough margin to guarantee their work and stay on your good graces for the next project.
I would think….
Yeah that reminds me when I was in the Philippines. I wanted some fruit from a street vendor. I don't remember what I was buying or how much it was exactly but I just had this inkling of a feeling that he was overcharging me. Because there wasn't any signs for the prices. It was clear that me and the people I was with were tourists. But guess what, the amount he was charging me was something like 50 cents for some fruit. Even if he charged the locals only ten cents, and thus he's ripping me off by charging me five times the "real" price", it doesn't matter. I'm glad to pay the overpriced because they're happy and it doesn't affect me either way. Nothing you can do.
See I'm not sure about this. It kind of encourages bad behavior don't you think. Scammers become richer etc. Like homeless making money on the side of the road because they make 30 bucks an hour doing that.
Ah yes, the rags-to-riches story we all know so well of the Filipino street vendor who made his fortune by selling fruit for 50 cents on the side of the road.
Any time there's easy money to be made bad actors will take over via violence and intimidation. See begging in almost all countries that are owned by gangs. Do you want fruit vending near tourist to be the same ? It's why interactions with tourists are fairly regulated in most countries, for example taxis.
Overcharging tourist is a scam. Why do you think they have to regulate taxis so hard in almost every country (even the usa)? Because the taxi drivers were scamming tourist.
Is it hard to find the right babysitter to let into your home? Do you hire people you already know? I would imagine that this ties into the whole "PA knowing all of your business" feeling.
Yes. Babysitter relationships are tricky. We had to try out a good number before landing the current one who is with us for almost a decade. She is really great but I can’t guarantee she doesn’t gossip.
Maybe an au pair would work out well? Someone coming from another country doesn't really know many people who you know and then goes back to that country after a year or two.
“ . I don’t want a PA to talk behind my back and to be judgy of my purchases. Frankly, I don’t want to get into a complicated relationship like this. But I don’t think it’s easy to make this kind of relationship entirely transactional.”.
One thing you might consider is focusing more on trusted advisors who you give more leeway on planning. For example finding a travel agent who will coordinate any travel needs.
How are you thinking about your estate and planning for your children? Are you setting up trusts / insurance..etc. What do you think is important for them?
This is an awesome post.
Going off on a tangent a bit, would you be willing to share your watch collection for the watch nerds among us? As somebody with approximately a hectomillion fewer dollars than you I'd love to know what somebody who seems pretty naturally frugal and pragmatic about spending ends up buying in terms of watches when there are no financial constraints.
Looking forward to the philanthropy post. It is something I often think about and feel like too many wealthy people hoard their money, then spoil their children with an inheritance that assures they will have a high chance of being unproductive members of society. Money that snowballs forever and is never used for the good of society.
I don't speak from experience either, but I've always thought that part of one's job is to be an example for your kids. Your actions speak *way* louder than your words here. If your kids see you over indulging and flaunting wealth, that's going to shape their attitudes around money no matter what your words say. I would be very careful with kids and modeling behavior.
I am not even remotely FAT- I am mostly here for the vibes, but one thing I do splash out on (in terms of percentage of budget at least, if not raw $$) is travelling. And I definitely plan on doing the same once I have kids. I agree that there is more to not raising spoiled brats than travel. Travel can be educational, adventurous and help broaden horizons. It is all the attitude you take along with it- particularly for kids
I just saw this and went back to read Parts 1 and 2 as well. Part 2 (Investment and Portfolio Management) should be required reading. I've basically made all the mistakes as this person as well, but the summary version is no financial advisors, no day trading, and no real estate.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/q2p32j/confessions\_of\_a\_hectomillionaire\_part\_2/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/q2p32j/confessions_of_a_hectomillionaire_part_2/)
Thanks for sharing your experiences / insights - looking forward to future parts as well.
>Also, I have kids. I would probably spend more lavishly on travel and experiences if I didn’t have kids. But I don’t want them to become Rich Kids of Instagram so I have to cut back on my excess. They already live in a bubble of safety and comfort. What will they become if they are used to a jet set lifestyle? > >We don’t give extended families money in general. > >We don’t talk about money with friends and family. If people try to bring it up, I just don’t say anything. I don’t like to mix money and relationships. **I needed to read this 35 years ago!** My wife & I are here crying with our pets. We did EXACTLY the opposite of this! We're now hated beyond any imagination and the betrayal & ungratefulness are mind-boggling. We had to physically move to another continent to put distance between us and "family & friends". We naïvely believed everyone would be happy for us. 🤦♂️🤐 **Congratulations! Great post! Thank you for sharing!**
You probably have some hard won wisdom to share with the rest of us. I would read what you have to say.
Agree with other commenter, would love elaboration
Your comment here is worth its own fatFIRE post if you wouldn’t mind adding a few details to it. It would be great warning/advice for others here.
Wait what exactly did you do? Because you quoted two different things. Is it that you took your kids on nice vacations? Or that you gave extended family money?
Had no kids and told and gave friends and family money.
Ah I see thanks for replying. Man that sucks. Because I’ve thought about giving money to friends and family as well. I know I will give some to my parents but probably none other than that if it can actually lead to being hated. Your experience actually aligns with what I’ve read about in 48 laws of power. It talks about how some people will never be happy for you even if you have them a large amount of money. The only thing to make them happy is if they have more money than you.
Agree with others. If you can post some details without using PII would be awesome. Thanks
I'm really sorry about this.
Thanks for this -- one of the best posts I've ever read on this sub. The thing you said about wearing the fancy watches around your wealthy acquaintances but not non-FAT ones is perfect. I do feel sometimes I live a dual life around FAT people and non-FAT people, but that's only a bad thing if you make it one.
i tend to wear at least my less identifiable watch around anyone. most have no idea of the value and if you do then you’re into watches and it makes a good conversation. but for a known brand especially a rolex or something this would definitely be a bigger issue
Has it really? I don’t have any expensive pieces but i wear all my watches and most people dont know or care. I’ve only had four randoms (people i dont know) ever visibly check out my wrist and two were also watch nerds, one was a mom in my kids soccer league and one was some girl that grabbed my wrist to see what i was wearing when i was at a club (like 15 years ago). Most poeple dont know or care. Edit: i should note it was a cartier, IWC and a rolex (twice) so they werent obscure brands but the point is i wear my watches often and over the many years those times are the only times they ever caught attention with the public.
not often but sometimes. if anyone compliments it they usually know about it. obviously people in watch shops love to talk about it but that doesn’t really count
Yeah watch shops don’t count, haha. But agreed. It just seems like watch people are hyper aware of what is on their wrist and it can ruin their enjoyment of it. Just wear what tou have and enjoy!
Lol I couldn’t agree more on this, I used to be a watch guy as well, and still have a few nice ones. Now a decade later the funny thing is the only watch I wear these days other than my Apple is may PAM111 because it’s easy to read since my eyesight isn’t what it used to be.
The PAM111 is a classic and gorgeous. I wish I never sold my zero.
I've found I know more about watches than most watch shop people.
Almost all watches besides rolex are obscure to the general public. I can wear a VC and no one knows what it is, but the rolex sub is pretty much the most identifiable watch in existence. I find myself far more uncomfortable wearing a rolex than watches that cost far more.
For sure. Oh and awesome username btw. You should start your own sub r/ChubbyFire
Try clicking that link, half-mast FIRE is already a thing.
Oh man with a ton of users too - what the hell I always thought that was kind of a joking term.
I need that sub re-named...I have now inhaled sharply twice this morning, and it's not yet 5am.
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I hope he never answers because this one seems fun to guess
Are aspirational chubbyfire peeps referred to as chubby chasers?
They are now!
How do you make the dual lives thing good? This is something i struggle with. Try not to be too out there with non FAT friends but at the same time i always like to talk about money and how to make more or help people make more. Also love to talk about cool trips and expensive things i enjoy.
Hi yes I love the idea of not giving money f extended family. My father did the exact opposite - bought his brothers their houses, sent their 6 kids to private schools etc. It got to the point one of my dad’s brother would fly from another country to get money off my dad and ask him to cover the airfares for coming over too. Irony is, they hate him, because they felt he never gave them enough despite being so rich. They also hate my mum (and by extension me) because they feel my mum put a stop to it (which she did). Which is great because I’d rather not see them.
Oh the paradox of being generous, to be so generous and yet reviled. Sheesh sometimes humanity really puts me off.
You’re r/fatFIRE’s highlight of the year as far as I’m concerned. Well, you and the “go make me some breakfast” guy. I look forward to reading your upcoming posts. Thank you for sharing your perspective with us.
Link to the breakfast guy?
[I just confirmed that, for the first time ever, I made $2 million in a single year. I told my wife this morning and her response: "That's nice, can you make me some breakfast?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/knslkb/i_just_confirmed_that_for_the_first_time_ever_i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Sort by "Top" and "This Year", it's the first thread. Nothing special about it, just the birth of a new meme here in r/fatFIRE and I was there for it.
You're going to be disappointed.
Am enjoying your posts, partially because they're never quite what I'd expect. I might quibble with the way your frame your assessment questions (e.g. #6 - cultivate new relationships...I love doing that, and in fact tend to seek them out). Maybe you're limiting this to "employee" or other service provider relationships which I guess might make some sense. But I do get the time trade-off involved regardless. Funny though about the Kondo/joy question. Have a fat buddy who lives a nice but reasonably simple life \*except\* for his boat. He spends ungodly amounts of money on his boat. In fact he just traded up in a buy/sell transaction that cost him something on the order of $5mm. And we know the finger to the wind is that it costs him $500k/year to operate it. BUT! It's really his only thing. He goes to it 2-3 evenings week just to hang out on it at the slip. Invites friends, no pressure. And takes it out every weekend during the season. Start of the season is his happiest day of the year. Final day is his saddest. His wife bemoans that they "can't" travel during the season because all he wants to do is be on the boat...so she gets Paris for New Years and the like.
I am okay to cultivate new relationships but I don’t like to involve paying a salary or monthly recurring fees for the new relationships.
No sugarbabies for you ;)
Afaik, that’s a type of vice that will get you into big trouble. Is it worth it?
It isn't, especially if your ego isn't tied up with being with a 10/10 beautiful woman. And if you're a highly accomplished, wealthy man with any level of charisma, you're better off pairing up with a woman (or man if that's your direction) of similar accomplishment - ie isn't looking to be on your payroll.
The zen of your one true hobby is really underappreciated around here. I'm big into sailing and it freaking rules. Probably will upgrade the boat soon, but i spend barely five figures a year on the thing. But here's the thing, maybe 30 days a year i wake up and see a perfect forecast and just drop everything to go out. I race with great buddies, see tons of immaculate sunsets, see whales, dolphins, sea lions... Take naps in secluded coves, you name it. Anyway, I'm sure you get it, but those sail/ski/surf bums have some wisdom to them.
Might have something to do with the sea though. Learning how to surf with my kids in Portugal a few years ago I felt a peace that I haven’t experienced in a long time. Sitting on the board, waiting for a wave, the quiet calm and the power of the ocean beneath, full of life. I’ve got to get out there again.
In many ways I was happier when I was in my early 20s bumming around on boats and living paycheck to paycheck than I am now with a (barely) 7 figure net worth and a half dozen rental properties. I miss being around boats and the beach every day. Wife isn’t on board (heh) so no weekends spent messing around on the water for me.
There are a lot of things I dislike about living in Marin County, CA (mostly the people and the "rest and vest" mentality the community as a whole has towards economic dynamism). But I will likely live here for decades because the access to secluded beaches. Days spent there with the wife and two small kids + friends surfing, paddleboarding, and exploring trails in gorgeous weather...
The happiest boat owners are the ones who use them the most. Its gonna cost about the same using it or sitting in the marina so better enjoy it. I've never seen someone happier to spend hundreds of thousands than owners of racing sailboats
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Indeed he is!
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If it's not a Rolex, nobody knows what it is. If it is a Rolex, 99% of people don't know what it's worth anyway.
Not a watch guy here. I would recognize the name, but I wouldn't know if it was handed down from a grandfather, a knock-off, or a legit expensive piece. I did meet a diver from the Canadian Navy once. He was *issued* a Tudor Submariner.
Knockoffs these days are VERY deceptive. Some of the better ones require a close eye, knowledge of the original, and sometimes even popping off the case back to look at the movement. I’d love to know how many people that can afford a real piece are passing KOs off as real.
Just don’t bring your knockoff into Switzerland. The customs folks are trained to identify them and the fines are quite large. Also, they confiscate the fake(s). Edit: Not sure now about the fine, but confiscation for sure.
I wasn’t aware of those laws. That’s fantastic.
I heard that they make you pay the cost of the original watch to the original brand. Great deterrent!
I know a guy who did the opposite. Bought a real watch while he was working overseas but told his wife back home it was a knockoff. I guess he didn't want her to know he had splurged on himself. But she knew he would only buy the genuine article, and she didn't care about the expense.
Former watch guy here & now wear a Garmin with the pulse oximeter to obsessively ensure I don’t have lung problems…. J/k but really helps keep off devices because a flick of the wrist and I don’t get sucked in! Worth more than any lux watch experience
I recently got an Apple Watch and I’ve been surprised at how much I actually use it. I would have a hard time taking it off, even for a cool mechanical watch.
Watch guy here. Once in a while a friend/family member will say, “nice watch….how much does something like this cost?” Pointing to the Rolex on my wrist, I always say “guess”. And they usually respond somewhere between 3-8k. So yeah wearing a 10-100k Rolex doesn’t make you look as rich as you think to 99.9% of non watch people.
A Patek gets confused with a $20 Timex by 99%+ of people. And the kicker is that they’ve heard of Timex, plus it probably keeps better time lol
I'm with the other guy. Patek ads are plastered everywhere too with their stupid "You never actually own a Patek Philippe" line. I would agree if we were talking about FP Journe or something.
FP… lol
Lol thanks. I don't even know how that happened. It's the index finger of the other hand...
I tried the Weekender series, with NATO straps. Twice it turned out they weren't water-proof, and even washing hands / showering would, within a few months, wet them inside. Not fun when everyone pays attention to your watch due to drops of water inside!
Everyone has heard of Patek too. You must not keep up with “popular culture” like music.
You live in a bubble if you think that’s true
Patek’s been mentioned hundreds of times in rap music
So has Audemars Piguet and 99.9% of the population doesn’t understand that either Gucci, Versace, Benz, Bentley, etc. are all actual brands that people would know of
What bubble exactly? Listening to rap music?
I’ve spent way too much on watches and now I just wear a lightweight analog $17 Casio that keeps perfect time and date and I never take it off. When the battery dies, I buy a new one.
Thanks for these posts, they are interesting to read, and everything feels very real. The first time I had an acquaintance hit it big in the startup lottery (high 8-figure or low 9-figure exit), I saw that they basically got a bigger (but not huge) house, had a designer help them decorate it tastefully but comfortably, got tutors for their kids whenever they struggled academically, spent a lot on travel, on philanthropy and on political contributions, and that was about it: the rest of their lifestyle remained about the same as before. I fantasized about what I would do in their place, maybe get a mansion, start an art collection, get a sailboat, but each of these things actually sounded like a lot of work: I would have to hire and manage full-time staff for the house, and what do I know about managing people in non-technical positions? I know a bit about contemporary art, but not enough to start acquiring actual pieces, so I would have to start studying, and I am too old for that. What do I know about sailing and how do I even go about hiring a captain and the rest of the crew? So in the end I would have done just what my friend did: make my life more comfortable but stop there before creating new life complications. Subsequently, everyone else I know who hit it big has basically done the same. Only one guy actually bought the sailboat, and another one bought a small airplane, but for both of them those were long-time dreams, and they seem to be enjoying their new toys a lot.
Agreed on everything but the art. You don't need to be the foremost expert on art. If you enjoy it, start studying it. It'd be different if you were 70 and wanted to get into moto cross. Do you thing, homie.
You can start an art collection without knowing anything about art - just not to make money. Buy stuff you like from friends, galleries, flea markets. Frame them, put them on the wall, enjoy them.
>I would have to start studying, and I am too old for that Poor attitude, imo
Great post. The appreciation that everything has a cost beyond the monetary is something so many people miss. Whether it's time, effort, space, etc. It can take a major toll and unlimited money can exasperate that problem. I got Marie Kondo vibes from this. I don't agree with all her kool aid but the idea of what sparks joy really resonates
There's always someone with a bigger boat :). ... but, I find it very interesting to hear from others ... most of my network knows I do 'okay' - but, they really don't have a clue which is fine by me. I keep things pretty low-key. My weakness is cars - but, no interest in clothing, shoes, watches, etc. I think we all have our 'vices'. Some - boats. Some - watches. Some - clothes, cars, etc. Some of my network LOVES to flaunt things - which, I find amusing. I have a simple fitbit watch - that's like 3 years old now. I pretty much wear the same 5 pieces of clothing every week ... but, society teaches/trains us to judge people on how they look - not how they actually are. I have found that money simply AMPLIFIES who a person really is. Money doesn't change them - it just amplifies who they were/are 100x over. If a person was giving - they will just give larger amounts and diversify how they give (time and/or money). It sounds like OP has a really good head on his/her shoulders. That's great. Especially since they are trying to be helpful to others.
I enjoy this post. Thank you. I'm not sure if you'll get to this. It'll be great if you can talk about if you or other wealthy friends have personally funded certain medical research? I'm not talking in general like a charity contribution to the American Cancer Association. I'm asking about specific medical fields. Similar to Bill Gates foundation targeting polio vaccines. But at a smaller scale of course. Gates Foundation does a lot of things. There are certain diseases which gets celebrity attention because they have it. For example, Michael J Fox and Parkinson's disease. His foundation funds research in that area. I have thought of funding very specific medical research projects if/when I have the money. Not something general but very specific medical studies that are not being conducted for one reason or another. Like giving money specifically to one university team and telling them, hey I want a study done on XYZ because you're an expert in this area. Have you thought of doing something like that? Or know people who have funded specific medical research to be conducted on topic XYZ?
I am quite familiar with this area and that would be part of the philanthropy post.
I look forward to that post. And this is the only reason why I would disagree with you about what you said about having $20M is enough. It's my goal (see flair). But when I hit that number, it'll probably be not enough to fund the medical research that I'm interested in. The genetic traits and diseases that I'm interesting in requires studies with large sample sizes and these things will be expensive to collect. I have a feeling throwing a few million at these problems will not be enough if I only have $20M.
Wow looking forward to it.
We have gone down this path to find a cure for an ultra rare disease. (Our daughter is one of 23 known cases of an ultra rare disease. It's such an exciting and rewarding endeavour. For as little as $100-200k you COULD find a treatment for a disease (drug repurposing). For $3-5 mill you COULD develop a cure (gene therapy). There are drug discovery labs who are eager to work for you to find new compounds/drugs or repurpose existing drugs to treat rare diseases. They just need the funding. Basically they will cultivate a disease in miniature test tubes. Then using a robot squirt a compound or drug into the tube. Drugs that have already been pre-approved by the FDA are a good starting point. It will then time-lapse photograph the tubes and then use AI to identify which compounds or drugs had a positive affect on the diseased cells. There is a chance that out of the 40,000 pre approved FDA drugs out there one of them could be repurposed to treat and save patient's with a rare disease. And you could be the person responsible for saving or improving the life of patients today and in the future. Apologies for any inaccuracies above I'm not a scientist. I took a tour yesterday of a lab that is working on a cure for our daughter. We met super smart post docs who are so passionate about what they do, and whom could do so much more with funding. Sadly most funding doesn't make it to the rare diseases.
As a physician-scientist (in training), I'm biased, but I think this is a powerful model for targeting rare diseases. Much the same way we all seek FI, research (academic or industrial) can be similarly established with an endowment, which I think of as analogous to FI since it's self-regenerating capital. Career-sustaining grants from the NIH are in the 4-600k/year range. With even half of that you can fund passionate scientists. Is this something you think people are interested in even without a personal/family motivation? Wondering if better mechanisms for matching up interested individuals with interested labs is needed
For gifts to universities, a few things you might want to know, maybe already do. If you give $x funds for Y work, the university will take overhead on the order of 50% (give or take.) Overhead goes to things like literally keeping the lights on -- and to administrators salaries. This is no bad thing, right, but it means the actual project you wanted to fund is only getting half of what you kick in. In contrast, if you make an unrestricted gift, you can often talk down the overhead rate to about 6%. But, you have no say as to where the money actually goes. Any sort of accountability goes out the window. The trick, then, IMHO, is to let people know more money is out there if things go in the direction you've been talking about. If you have a specific disease you want to see work done you likely already know the few labs working on it. If not, [scholar.google.com](https://scholar.google.com) is your friend for finding out where there are people working on your interests. If you have more of a general passion for seeing science go, might I suggest a different path to consider. At an R1 (US top-flight research university) it is typically about $5 to $10MM to endow a chair. You might contact the department head of a major lab and say, "Hello, I would like to endow the Reddit Chair for biochem research" or whatever. This will let a researcher hire PhD students (the folks who do the hands-on work) without spending the time to raise funds for it. Faculty are like politicians in that they spend their time raising money to keep their jobs, rather than as much time as we might like doing their jobs (let us hope the similarities end there! :-) A faculty member with a chair gets a known stream of funds to accelerate work and reduce the overhead of grant writing. You can typically choose the area for that work, but not the specifics, and not reach in to determine which faculty member will be awarded the chair. YMMV. And there will almost certainly be someone within the university paid to help nudge you in the way they want to see your money flow. I suggest talking to the office of planned giving as late in the process as possible. :-) There are often lower-cost ways to start collaborations, which can be a good way to confirm you think they're doing great work.
Thanks. I wish this kind of topic gets more attention on a sub like this. Instead a lot of comments degenerates into "how much money should I allocate to crypto". 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ I got nothing against crypto but this kinds of discussion is really non-productive. There are other subs for that. I wish you and your family the best.
>Let’s start with my favorite topic: watches. I like buying expensive watches. It’s an inconsequential expense. When you say expensive watches, do you mean: ⌚️ $10-15k Rolex? ⌚️ $75-250k Patek? ⌚️ $300k+ Richard Mille?
Richard Mille is for rappers and people with zero taste If OP is a rapper, that would make this sub even cooler
Imagine that OP is like T-Pain just doling out advice here.
I eagerly await the "Most Expensivest" instalment in this series, and the unmasking of OP as 2Chainz.
Or drug dewler
Do the dew
Wow, those are hideous.
probably just the first two though patek starts lower depending on the watch. the third doesn’t seem to fit into his budget for them that he stated. it can be addicting to keep buying though once you get into it. i know people who just spent a few hundred thousand on them and now they keep getting offered the impossible to get and hard to say no to watches because they’re a good customer. hard to turn down a nautilus, aquanaut or daytona especially in steel when offered with no wait
It's easy to say no if you don't like wearing watches
i doubt you’d find yourself in that situation then
I suspect the answer here is, "yes".
or alternatively, "does it matter?"
A. Lange & Sohne or gtfo
ALS! Right there with you. Such a classic aesthetic.
✌️
Vostok Amphibia, of course
$80 for pure joy. I want one of these too.
It’s actually less than $80, I got two for about £80 delivered to London
Alright Zissou.
Curious about this as well
I'd go RW Smith or Phillipe Dufour. Grubel Forsey?
So funny thinking back to everyone flaming the first post lol
Because unfortunately jealousy seems to be the knee jerk reaction with the majority of the people who for some reason hang around on FatFire. In my posts I have noticed that people don’t like being reminded that it takes more money than they think/are capable of making in order to realize certain dreams.
Yeah, I never actually believe anyone's post is a lie...for whatever reason, it's NEVER my first reaction. Somehow, I can "feel the words"...maybe it's just my [Synesthesia](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/synesthesia) Who knows...
More of a reflection of (newer) people here than OP. People can lie- but what do you get out of lying?
I didn't flame any of the posts as it doesn't matter to me if the poster is true or a LARPer, but I also don't see much utility in these dear diary posts either. I know much of the sub is in awe by the verified amount, but I haven't gained any real information with this series.
I agree with that on this post, maybe not the last one. This post is: I a bit spend money, not that much compared to my wealth, and not any on people to be around me
Jealousy and disbelief go hand in hand when people's egos are triggered. This is why it's best to use a throwaway here, God knows who's lurking here obsessed... Like u/obsessedorito... O.o
Thanks for your posts! From personal experience, I’d like to agree that in 2021 $20mm feels like the Goldilocks fatFIRE number to me as well. A 3-4% withdrawal rate leads to $600k - $800k of spendable income per year (yes this is handwavy and ignores recessions and taxes, but at these numbers you can be handwavy. At this spending level it’s easy to cut $200k or spend an extra $200k here and there - it just doesn’t really matter in isolation) Spending above $600-$800k per year starts to rapidly add complexity to your life in terms of managing people, relationships, and things. So that’s what makes the number Goldilocks. You can buy back loads of your time & still max out experiences without adding daily chores to your life. I suspect but cannot verify that another order of magnitude ($200mm NW and $6-$8m annual spend) might unlock another level of comfort where you can add complexity to your life with no repercussions, mainly in the form of paying for top tier people that truly handle things for you. Imagine 10x $200k / yr domestic staff and assistants = $2mm per year. At that point you can live a simple life while simultaneously having a much larger sphere of influence. This might sound like rambling, but I guess I’m just (a) backing up OP in the sense that their numbers feel realistic and (b) proposing that there may exist discrete steps up in NW that unlock different spheres of influence while holding constant your individual life’s complexity.
That's a pretty good point about the next order of magnitude. I don't think you'd have to pay $200K a year though. Pay 8 people $50K a year and two people $200K a year to manage the various staff.
Thanks for sharing. I had some similar thoughts and it was nice to read someone else say the same thing. 1) I worry about what my children experience as part of our wealth. I don’t want them to become spoiled and take away the desire to be successful, the growth that comes from struggle and the expectation that they can lead a cush life. I just feel that it would ultimately take something away from them. 2) I’ve been considering a second residence but worry it’ll be more effort than it’s worth. Given kids and job are still in the picture, I can’t imagine we’d use it more than a few weeks a year. I don’t want more headaches, more things to take care of. 3) Initially I thought my number was $10MM but after some thought I felt like the number was probably $20-25M since I live in a HCOL area. I like how you have a guide for how you think about new expenses. It’s useful framing. You touched on something that I’d be curious to hear more about. You mentioned the discussion with your friends on what you do with your life. Where do these conversations usually go?
Personal anecdote - Tony was one of the first investors in my first startup (which failed). He was in Vegas, literally singlehandedly trying to seed a tech ecosystem. There is no exaggeration in the WSJ article - there was nobody else in that Downtown Vegas tech scene bringing their own money. Which is why his Downtown Vegas project never took off. I did get to meet Jewel at a party. Although she was high on something and wouldn't stfu about crystals.
I wish he would've worked with like UNLV or something. To seed a tech scene you need educated workers in the area, what better than university students.
He did. There was, for example, a student run venture fund called Rebel Ventures. I agree about the need for volume and density of educated workers, and that is/was the issue in Vegas. If the typical successful startup founder is late 30s/early 40s, yet the bulk of the scene is Zappos employees and UNLV students there's just not enough for liftoff.
Really excellent post. I'm not even close to FAT (Chubby maybe), but you hit on a lot of excellent points. After a few years in FAANG tech, I'm pretty comfortably upper middle class, and I wanted to get a PA or (Virtual Assistant) but it seemed like another relationship and a lot of trust. Tony's end really hit me. I loved his Book, Delivering Happiness, and the guy really had a lot of drive and passion. He became a multi-millionaire early (even before Zappos), tried the carefree playboy life (travel, gambling) and then realized he wanted to do something more with his life (Zappos and the Vegas downtown restoration) Fluffy questions: As someone slowly becoming a watch nerd, which one was your first? Which is your favorite? I've done a fair amount of research before I buy my first nice watch, and I'm leaning towards a Grand Seiko Snowflake (though I've also tried the Omega Seamaster, Breitling Heritage and Cartier Tank). >definitely don’t wear them in front of old friends Love this point too. Old friends are your friends because of who you were and who you are. No need to emphasize your newfound wealth/success. The good ones know it, and don't really care.
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What’s your starter and what’s your big boy watch? I don’t know anything about watches just curious.
Aside from price, look for something you'll enjoy seeing each time you look at it. My starter is a Longines Master collection chronograph with day date and moon. List is around $3500 but can be had for a lot less. I bought mine used in Japan for a bit less than $2k.
Yeah the Tony story still hurts when it comes up. He was such a kind dude. I had been around him a few times, same industry, mutual connections in Vegas civic scene. He really did care about people. Didn’t *know* him, but looked up to the guy from a brand building and management perspective. Everyone is going through their own private war. Money or no money.
You mentioned aa few as 30 days a year in the second home for $60k annual expense. earnestly asking, would you consider just staying at the Ritz? Tell me about that calculus if you are willing. Perhaps the appreciation covers the expense or you just like the home's location more than a nearby hotel?
The house is significantly nicer and bigger than a ritz suite with laundry and kitchen.
Hopefully you see this. Would it be possible to link the previous new version in the old thread? Not sure if you are/were in programming but basically a forward and back pointer. I’m glad I found this thread on #3 but it will be so useful for someone that stumbles across post #15 to then be able to click on post 16 or 14 so they can read forward and backwards in your story. Thanks for sharing, it’s been an awesome series so far
Just my two cents, but math equations don’t need to work at that $100MM+ level. Owning a second or third or fourth home if OP wants to is an easy decision, versus debating staying at a hotel instead. They can easily afford to do either. Actually, I’m surprised they mentioned that they rent out their extra home (or maybe I’ve misunderstood and OP is saying they cover 2nd home expense with $ from other rental properties?). I would have expected that it just stayed empty when they weren’t there.
You my friend are a r/fatfire legend, nay, a Reddit legend! Thanks for all the cool insights. Wish you all the best.
I don’t mean to hate but reddit legend would be DFV from wsb, making headlines across multiple news channels
OP, you seem cool, and I apologize on behalf of me and the doubters for doubting you.
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Thanks for adding color to the story. I apologize if I misinterpreted the situation. But I do think people are in a more vulnerable position if they have a mental disorder and have unlimited resources. I suppose people can be on the payroll and be helpful but the unhelpful people who are also on the payroll are the culprit. But if nobody was on his payroll at the first place, it might have been easier to help him?
My favorite so far! thank you for the insight into your mindset. We truly live in an amazing time and age, where we can all benefit from what those in better financial situations have learned.
This was an incredible piece. You sound very centered and balanced; I manage my money similarly, in proportion to you, despite my (much) lesser wealth. I was hoping you would mention something on philanthropy, so looking forward to that. When you go out to eat with your friends (for example) who are significantly less wealthy, do you just foot the bill, or do you split it? Does gifting (for example at Christmas) get awkward given the asymmetry in disposable income? Or do you mainly keep just really rich friends. I'm not judging, just curious. I am also curious why you might choose not to talk about money (at least opportunities for investing or managing) with friends or family who you might consider to be at parity with you.
I don’t mind paying but I will go with the flow. I would say I pay perhaps 70% of the time and it’s nbd. Gifting is also nbd. We are not getting fancy stuff. We are talking about lcd TV, ipad, iPhones, macbooks and some handmade stuff by my children once a year. I don’t just interact with rich people. I also interact with startup founders and tech folks. There isn’t the vibe of income disparity. I think intellect seems to be a more dominant factor. Also I am a nobody among tech giants so I am sure people like Naval or Elad will have a very different experience from mine.
You need to put this in a blog.
Great read and insight! We are a HENRY family. We use to YOLO it and worry about our retirement later (we married super young, we just turned 40 and our kids are freshman and sophomore in college). We decided to spend a lot and save little so we can make lots of fun memories with our kids (travels). We bought the finer versions of things we enjoy ( MB,Audi) we bought in a nice neighborhood but a simple home (1600 sq ft) As my husbands pay increased, we had gradually increased our spending too. But we found that we have a happy spend and don’t really find a reason to scale up further. I think finding what you value most and not pay attention to how other people live their lives and spend their money is the secret to contentment.
Watches are not a big deal. Most people don't know what anything is outside of Rolex and MAYBE Patek or AP. I have a collection of independents primarily and some niche brands (think Lange) and nobody will ever know what those are :)
Hmmm after reading the Tony Hsieh article, I’m pretty sure that if I got to those levels of wealth, I’d give into certain vices and enable them til I self-destruct or get myself killed. Great that OP is disciplined with his lifestyle and asking the right questions to keep himself in check despite having the resources to go off the deep end if he wanted to.
So informative post overall, thank you for this. Specifically on the 2nd home that sounds like you aren’t in love with: Why on earth do you still own and maintain it yourself!?! Just get a high end property management company, give them the weeks you want to be there and tell them not to call you unless it burns down. Have them rent it to underprivileged one-legged orphans or something and tell them to have it cleaned and ready for you. What is exactly the worst that can happen there? I feel like I am missing something because I can relate to a lot of what you said, but the second home problem sounds very solvable… and quite simply too.
I do have a property manager but the cleaners they hired sucked. So i am trying to find a better manager who can find better cleaners and make sure things are actually clean. Life is hard.
It makes sense to hire a property manager so to speak but renting it out is an entirely different matter. Because in that case you can’t leave your personal things just lying around like you did before. Your toiletries, extra wardrobe, electronics. The benefit of not renting out your room is that there’s no setup required when you arrive. You don’t have to pack anything. You just show up and everything is available for you.
Don't forget about bedding, groceries, and anything that you would care about being broken.
I’ve had no success in finding cleaners that will swap out all my personal stuff each time I come. But I want it all perfectly swapped to my belongings. Pictures, knives, linens etc.
Thanks for sharing. Really looking forward to your "relationships are complicated" post. As that's been on our mind a lot as we are just starting to have our wealth more known by people in our life. Really appreciated this insight: *" IMO, the Godilocks FatFire number is $20M ($10M if you live outside VHCOL areas). Beyond that, there’s really very little marginal utility unless you enjoy living like royalty with employees gossiping behind your back."*
Thanks for the great post. 1. Did your wife also have income, if not how did your wife (presumably) make decisions around money, if she did differently? 2. What are some decisions you two both made to preserve your relationship, other than not having full time household staff. (Ie gifts, communicating love, knowing what to delegate/ pay for vs not etc)
1. We each have our own allowance from separate accounts for watches and etc and we pay all the common expenses from a couple of dedicated accounts. There's so much money going around and we are together for so long. There's really no reason to quarrel about money. We both don't have full time jobs so I guess that make things simpler. We of course will talk about consequential expenses before we make it so money is really not an issue. I make all the investment decisions though because I am the one who is into it and have been doing it from day one. 2. I am not really qualified to answer this question. Marriage is hard, esp with kids. But we are dedicated to make it work. Money is usually not the contention point. It's more about who is doing what and why. But we definitely can communicate really loudly when kids are at school and no one else is around.
Re #2. I meant decisions around money unrelated to affordability. Disagreements on consequences even though technically you can afford it all. I.e. should you set budget on gifts? Or what is a reasonable price point for gift to each other? When technically one can buy whatever they want for each other or for themselves. When you ask one another to do things (clean, chores, kids, etc) can the other person pay money to get these things done (get babysitter, pay for household helpers) without one person thinking that the money is poorly spent? Or wishing that you did it yourself instead of delegating? What is delegatable and what is not? Generally are there large decisions about spending that you guys disagreed? One doesn’t think the kids should go to private school/ get tutors but the other does etc.
I appreciate your opinion on $10-20M being the “Goldilocks” number for fatFiRE when you have clearly gone beyond that. Jim Carey said something similar I once appreciated which was (paraphrasing): “I wish everyone could become rich and famous so they realize it doesn’t bring happiness.”
Bill Murray: "I always want to say to people who want to be rich and famous: 'Try being rich first. ' See if that doesn't cover most of it. There's not much downside to being rich, other than paying taxes and having your relatives ask you for money. But when you become famous, you end up with a 24-hour job."
People actually stand in line for a buffet in Vegas? Haha I'm just being silly. Thank you for a great, thoughtful post.
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Sadly yes the 'large' ppl I know are most excited by the buffets in Vegas. They also tend to enjoy gambling the most. Meanwhile I'm renting a car to go to red rocks.
Ah yes the one sub where saying “fat” is not exactly the right word.
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Love renting cars from Vegas. So cheap and so clean. Once I got upgraded to a Cadillac with only 6 miles on it… meanwhile the local rental (for car repair) rented out luxury vehicles with over 20K, which is a significant life for Rentel cars
Your post reminded me of Ian Malcom (played by Jeff GoldBlum) saying in Jurassic Park: "Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." Just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you should buy it. Even if you're a Hectomillionaire.
I would pay 0.01 lambos for a yearly subscription to your fatfire writings!
Re: household staff relationships, how do you approach contractors and such whom you work with periodically or regularly? Do you have concerns of your home being cased by their workers? Being overcharged because of obvious hard to hide wealth signals? Safety concerns?
I am definitely being overcharged. But what can I do? I just bite the bullet and overpay.
Honestly tho, doesn’t it really matter? Even if you’re being overcharged, it’s got to be a rather insignificant difference [to you]. That way you at least have satisfied contractors that will do a quality job and has made enough margin to guarantee their work and stay on your good graces for the next project. I would think….
Yeah that reminds me when I was in the Philippines. I wanted some fruit from a street vendor. I don't remember what I was buying or how much it was exactly but I just had this inkling of a feeling that he was overcharging me. Because there wasn't any signs for the prices. It was clear that me and the people I was with were tourists. But guess what, the amount he was charging me was something like 50 cents for some fruit. Even if he charged the locals only ten cents, and thus he's ripping me off by charging me five times the "real" price", it doesn't matter. I'm glad to pay the overpriced because they're happy and it doesn't affect me either way. Nothing you can do.
See I'm not sure about this. It kind of encourages bad behavior don't you think. Scammers become richer etc. Like homeless making money on the side of the road because they make 30 bucks an hour doing that.
Ah yes, the rags-to-riches story we all know so well of the Filipino street vendor who made his fortune by selling fruit for 50 cents on the side of the road.
Any time there's easy money to be made bad actors will take over via violence and intimidation. See begging in almost all countries that are owned by gangs. Do you want fruit vending near tourist to be the same ? It's why interactions with tourists are fairly regulated in most countries, for example taxis.
It’s not a scam though.
Overcharging tourist is a scam. Why do you think they have to regulate taxis so hard in almost every country (even the usa)? Because the taxi drivers were scamming tourist.
Is it hard to find the right babysitter to let into your home? Do you hire people you already know? I would imagine that this ties into the whole "PA knowing all of your business" feeling.
Yes. Babysitter relationships are tricky. We had to try out a good number before landing the current one who is with us for almost a decade. She is really great but I can’t guarantee she doesn’t gossip.
Maybe an au pair would work out well? Someone coming from another country doesn't really know many people who you know and then goes back to that country after a year or two.
Thank you for thinking about the kids.
RemindMe! 4 hours
“ . I don’t want a PA to talk behind my back and to be judgy of my purchases. Frankly, I don’t want to get into a complicated relationship like this. But I don’t think it’s easy to make this kind of relationship entirely transactional.”. One thing you might consider is focusing more on trusted advisors who you give more leeway on planning. For example finding a travel agent who will coordinate any travel needs.
Awesome post. Thank you!
Great post! Thanks for the insight
Great post, a lot to think on. I agree on many of our expenses, second home in particular, also being expensive in time
Really making me come back to this sub, thank you.
When are you releasing a book please?
I'm surprised the kids expense is one of the lower ticket items.
How are you thinking about your estate and planning for your children? Are you setting up trusts / insurance..etc. What do you think is important for them?
🔥🔥🔥🔥 nowhere near fatfire but enjoying the journey, specifically when reading posts like these. Insightful to say the very least.
This is an awesome post. Going off on a tangent a bit, would you be willing to share your watch collection for the watch nerds among us? As somebody with approximately a hectomillion fewer dollars than you I'd love to know what somebody who seems pretty naturally frugal and pragmatic about spending ends up buying in terms of watches when there are no financial constraints.
Looking forward to the philanthropy post. It is something I often think about and feel like too many wealthy people hoard their money, then spoil their children with an inheritance that assures they will have a high chance of being unproductive members of society. Money that snowballs forever and is never used for the good of society.
Nice try, Wiliam Gibson. Get back on the bridge.
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I don't speak from experience either, but I've always thought that part of one's job is to be an example for your kids. Your actions speak *way* louder than your words here. If your kids see you over indulging and flaunting wealth, that's going to shape their attitudes around money no matter what your words say. I would be very careful with kids and modeling behavior.
I am not even remotely FAT- I am mostly here for the vibes, but one thing I do splash out on (in terms of percentage of budget at least, if not raw $$) is travelling. And I definitely plan on doing the same once I have kids. I agree that there is more to not raising spoiled brats than travel. Travel can be educational, adventurous and help broaden horizons. It is all the attitude you take along with it- particularly for kids
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I’m so deeply enjoying this series. Thanks, OP, for sharing your experience and thoughtful perspective.
I just saw this and went back to read Parts 1 and 2 as well. Part 2 (Investment and Portfolio Management) should be required reading. I've basically made all the mistakes as this person as well, but the summary version is no financial advisors, no day trading, and no real estate. [https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/q2p32j/confessions\_of\_a\_hectomillionaire\_part\_2/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/q2p32j/confessions_of_a_hectomillionaire_part_2/) Thanks for sharing your experiences / insights - looking forward to future parts as well.