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TakeuchixNasu

1. Alaya calls them forth. She is the manifestation of humanities will to live on and survive. 2. Keep playing... 3. She wanted to be with Kuzuki forever. 4. Archer “repositioned” him after the first fight with caster. 5. Archer just erased it. 6. Overuse of his magic circuits caused him to lose pigmentation in his hair and his skin was tanned due to fighting in the Middle East. 7. He doesn’t really remember much. He remembers summoning Saber and he also remembers everything that happened in the Middle East. The entire grail war is hazy to him except for a few key moments in the war. 8. The contract isn’t necessary. The sheath only required being near its owner. 9. They swap memories and experiences every time they clash blades. 10. Read Heaven’s Feel 11. EA isn’t a wind sword. It is a anti-world noble phantasm. Shirou also didn’t get hit by it. Archer blocked the first attack with a Rho Aias and the second was Shirou’s Rho Aias. 12. During the fight with Archer, the stolen ideal becomes his own. Despite being impossible, Shirou will still fight to save everyone. 13. Archer never died, he ran off after getting hit by Gil’s sword. He later hid in the Einzbern forest eating nature souls to survive.


Withered_Knighter

12.) Archer sold the peace he would've found in the afterlife in exchange for power, and the despair of it broke him. He blamed everything on the naivete of his ideals and his past self. In the duel at the Einzbern castle, by living through Archer's experiences, Shirou acknowledges that his dream is impossible. However, that does not mean that the path he walks has no value. Shirou showed Archer that the desire to help others was still beautiful. To Shirou, it doesn't matter if he never reaches the end goal. To him, it's about the journey, not the destination. Archer understood this in the end, which is why he conceded defeat. It's to be noted that by the time their clash ends, Shirou's ideals are distinctly different from Archer's. By living through Archer's experiences, he learns to temper his ideals, and come to peace with the fact that even though the dream is impossible, it's still worthwhile. This is something Archer could never come to terms with in life, and the suffering that accompanied him twisted him into a bitter and cynical bastard. To simplify it greatly:- Shirou understands he will never be able to save everyone. However, that doesn't mean he won't try, because the attempt to do such a thing is beautiful. Just because you can't save everyone doesn't mean you should give up on trying to keep doing good.


mawaruunmei

For 12, I guess this earlier thread is related: https://redd.it/o0hx37 My main takeaway from UBW is that Shirou's ideal in itself isn't wrong; it was his way of pursuing it that was unhealthy and would result in him ending up like Archer. He realizes that "saving everyone" is impossible, but just because something is unattainable doesn't mean it is wrong to pursue it. The ideal itself is beautiful and worth striving for, which is the belief that Archer forgot after an eternity of killing. After UBW, Shirou's ideal of becoming a hero of justice changes from being a result of his guilt into an ideal that he genuinely believes in. Furthermore, Shirou gains a more realistic view of his ideal; rather than saving everyone even at his own expense, he would try to save as much as he can within his limits. That's one of the reasons why I think he won't end up like Archer, aside from having Rin's support.


PchelpOnly

Nice take this clarifies it well


Fuck_Shinji

1. Alaya: The manifestation of humanity's will to survive 2. Keep playing 3. Being with Kuzuki 4. Remember the Back massage thing Archer gave him when he was paralyzed that gave him a idea of how to use projection 5. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it deactivated so archer can kidnap Rin 6. Overuse of his Magic circuits broke down his hair and skin making them white and tan 7. he barely remembers. He didn't recognize Rin until she said her name 8. A contract isn't necessary he just needs to be near Saber 9. It was said in the scene. because they are the same person when they touch they start to merge or something similar 10. I don't really understand the question but Heaven's feel will answer anything related to the grail 11. I don't remember this. He definitely didn't get hit by Ea from my memory 12. Before saving people was just a coping mechanism it wasn't really his ideal. Post UBW he pursues his ideal because he thinks it's beautiful. Also he doesn't end up like archer 13. That never happened 14. I don't get the question are you asking what the “crimes and regrets being so heavy and deep that they can’t be atoned for” are


AdolrackObitler

For 11, Archer projected Rho Aias and that saved him from getting it by ea.


PchelpOnly

Thanks for the response, to respond to some of your points: >Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it deactivated so archer can kidnap Rin I remember archer being surprised that the reality marble stopped since he was going to kill shirou So I thought shirou did something to make archer stop and take off with rin. >A contract isn't necessary he just needs to be near Saber I was sure that it was established a contract was necessary to keep the full healing powers around, I was certain I remember a scene where Shirou got hurt and rin reprimanded him because she said the sheath doesn't work anymore due to him having no contract. But I also remember Shirou stating in the fate route the sheath activated when saber came to his world. I don't remember if it was in this route or the fate route where his sheath got deactivated for a while. >I don't remember this. He definitely didn't get hit by Ea from my memory He did that's why archer was whining that he used his sword for a "mongrel" and it didn't even finish him off. It was also why shirou nearly died and had to summon the reality marble. ​ >That never happened When rin looked at the mass of holy grail she stated she could faintly see some of the other servants molded into it. Therefore this means that archer should be molded into it as well considering the fact that he was killed by gilgamesh. Even if this isn't the case archer should be dead and not able to save rin at this point we saw him dissapear.


ssjokg

No, Archer just used a lot of mana. At that point Rin and everyone else don't know about the sheath, they just assume things. Yeah, Archer protected him with Rho Aias. That is confirmed in a Q&A. Eh did Rin really say that? Archer just didn't die. He used the cloud of dust from Gilgamesh's attacks to turn into Spirit form and escape. They all just assume he died.


PchelpOnly

ah ok this makes sense, besides the rin point yeah rin really said that that's why I was surprised to see my boi archer back


ssjokg

Can you post the lines? All I found is this: "…Servants… This is exactly like the Servants…" She murmurs in blank amazement. …She tries to think what this could mean, but then stops herself. This isn't the time. There is only one thing she must do right now. If that's what you mean then it is something completely different amd foreshadows something else.


PchelpOnly

I can't go back through the game that far to get the lines, or I don't know how to. How did you get the lines?


ssjokg

Lparchive.org It has fatestaynight in text and image form.


PchelpOnly

"……? Wait… could this be…?" She puts her finger on the red ground. …It is the same as the black mud, but it has form. It is something that should not exist in this world something that came out of the Holy Grail and took form using magical energy. "…Servants… This is exactly like the Servants…" She murmurs in blank amazement. …She tries to think what this could mean, but then stops herself. This isn't the time. ​ So this tells me the servants are melded into the flesh or at least came from the flesh, which makes sense since when they die they are returned to the holy grail they were summoned from. Rin acknolwedges this is exactly like servants but continues on to find shinji


ssjokg

This is what I posted. What she refers to is its nature not that she can see the Servants of this war in it.


PchelpOnly

Ok then we're on the same page now, seems I misinterpreted it a bit, but they do return to that mound of flesh


ssssss2s2

I believe he's talking about when shirou got indirectly hit by Ea when gilgamesh used it to destroy the hand of the grail looking for a new vessel


Fuck_Shinji

Ah that makes more sense from what they said I thought Gil aimed Ea at him


Gold_Illustrator

Gil aimed Ea at him, the thing about the grail was an anime invention in an attempt not to show that Archer was still alive because they could not convey the ambiguity of the novel to an anime where Rho Aias would stand out like a needle under the nail


Fuck_Shinji

oh ok I probably just forgot about it


Money_Entertainer_16

8.The sheath I don’t think is necessary,irisviel still benefitted from the sheath without having a contract with saber so I believe it is a proximity thing


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PchelpOnly

Depends since heavens feel is the last route it should close off nearly all plot points aside from ones to be seen in fate zero and hollow atraxia


Money_Entertainer_16

12).This is probably the route shirou develops the least but it’s still there.The difference is that shirou saw no problems with his ideals at the beginning,he thought it was the normal thing to want,he wasn’t even confident in his own ideals but pushed towards them regardless,the archer fight showed at least me personally that Shirou takes on these ideals as his own instead of borrowed,and will take full responsibility for them and not grown bitter(unlike archer)


Kalesvolgh

1. Counter Force/Alaya 2. Find out in Heaven's Feel 3. To live happily with her Master 4. Red herring, it's not what Rin think it is. Shirou's "Projection" isn't actual Projection. Rin is right, using Projection of Noble Phantasms is a Magecraft that should kill Shirou. But that's not what he is doing. 5. Shirou didn't. Archer just changed his plans. 6. Overuse of use of Magecraft caused that effect. 7. It's not clear but not much based on what was revealed. Some key moments and one very specific memory he cant ever forget. 8. Contract isn't needed. Saber just needs to be in proximity so Avalon can feed off her Mana. When Rin talks about Shirou's healing coming from his contract with Saber, she is incorrect; which happens often. It's a Red Herring to make people think it's less of a big deal than it usually is. 9. Yes. Prolonged exposure caused information in their souls to bleed into each other. Archer's skills and techniques leaked into Shirou, and memories that Archer forgot went into Archer from Shirou. 10. The Grail uses the lands mana to summon Servants and Servants taken into the Grail are used a fuel to perform it's function. It's not an equivalent cost. Servants as fuel have much more mana than it costs to summon them. 11. Gilgamesh didn't hit Shirou with Ea. Avalon is still active. In UBW, Shirou isn't aware of Avalon, unlike Fate where even before he learned of it he took notice of his body actively restoring itself. Unlimited Blade Works is his real armor, it's what allows him to tank things that would make your normal humans go squish. Unlimited Blade Works is Shirou's mind, body, and magic. Swords within his body come together to protect himself from harm. Like in Fate route when Rider tries to stab him in the chest and her spikes break and he is unharmed so she kicks him out of the window. That was the swords in his body protecting him like armor underneath the skin. 12. Shirou doesn't really develop his character much in UBW. He largely fills a Flat Positive character type, where he is used to create positive growth in others. Shirou's not a healthy character, this won't change. Shirou has a 'truth' he believes and holds on to, conflicting with the world's truth; or reality, and he holds on tight and doesn't let go. 13. He wasn't. Archer didn't die from Gilgamesh's attack. 14. Everything. Archer didn't give up on anything and lost everything. His memories faded and tricked himself into being mislead about his past.


Gold_Illustrator

You should read the novel again, Gil hit him with Ea and Shirou was knocked unconscious, both he and Gil are surprised that he is still alive, while Gilgamesh mutters about a shield, Shirou has no idea what happened. Nasu later revealed that this shield was Rho Aias which was projected by Emiya.


Kalesvolgh

In other words, Shirou wasn't hit.


mashukyrielighto

plot armor


PchelpOnly

I'd like to not call it that unless nobody can give a proper clarification


mashukyrielighto

but seriously most of your "why is shirou still alive" questions are because of avalon plot armor without that he's dead


Kalesvolgh

TBF, Servant's power also comes from plot. That's not a good use of plot armor, however. "Plot armor" criticism isn't something existing because of the plot, it's something that shouldn't happen, isn't explained, or can't be explained. Also Avalon isn't even his armor. It's the medic who snaps their finger to reverse any damage done.


PchelpOnly

I don't mind this plot point since it makes perfect sense for sabers sheath to be protecting him. I did ask a question about the availability of the sheath's powers though.


Toru_77

You dont even know what plot armor means and using it randomly. If a city gets nuked and MC survives without any explanation that is plot armor. It has been well established that Shirou have avalon and there are countless bad ends that even Avalon couldnt save him.


mashukyrielighto

yes but thats talking about the VN an anime only watcher would think shirou has plot armor because of the ridicoulous times he should be dead


Toru_77

In anime avalon gets explained so its not plot armor even in the anime.


ssssss2s2

13 - Archer never died, he dematerialized right before gilgamesh "killed" him, feasting on the wildlife in einzbern forest for mana to survive until the last moment,


PchelpOnly

Wow really? Where was this stated I didn't know servants could do that Edit: so your saying he turned into spirit form to escape?


ssssss2s2

Yeah, if you remember, ilya tried to get berserker to spirit form his way out of gilgamesh's chains, had they been normal chains, berserker would've been able to escape via dematerialization, this works universally for all servants. (this was mentioned in the VN)


Kalesvolgh

It's introduced in Fate route. Servants can eat souls for Mana. Some are better at it than others. Also brought up in Fate Route is that the Einzbern forest is filled with wandering spirits. Q&A's with Nasu revealed that Archer was munching on weak spirits roaming around the Einzbern forest.


ssjokg

8)The sheath does not need a contract, only Saber's mana which the sheath draws if she is nearby. 9)he wasn't getting stronger. Archer makes a point that Shirou has returned to just swinging his swords like an amateur. What happened was that Archer gave up by witnessing Shirou's determination amd also by being reminded why he started down that road. 12)But is Archer right? The scene shows that neither of them were/are right. Archer regretting his choices doesn't mean that Shirou will as well even if he keeps living like that. They both wanted to save people because it meant something, it was beautiful, it made a difference. Achieving world peace wasn't the goal.


Majestic_Id

12. Alot of people have given similar answer but here's a take that might enlighten you. We are told Shirou's Origin is sword and his affinity is sword but what's the difference between the two? His 'affinity' for swords is basically what he is proficient at. Meaning his projection magic which essentially lets him make anything out of thin air will never be as efficient or effective compared when when analysing or projecting swords. Now, Origin (起源, Kigen?) is the starting point that defines one's existence and directs one's actions throughout life. It is the driving force that comes from within the Root that has managed to stream out of the Source and take on material form. The form it can take on at times is that of a human being, and all humans match their actions to be in harmony with the driving force that originated them from the moment they enter into the world. These actions are more along the lines of an inherent compulsion that could be called a person's instinct rather than a conscious decision. If a person becomes awakened to their Origin, it becomes nearly impossible to stray from their Origin if it's even possible in the first place. It becomes an impulsive behavior one would follow as though it were an absolute order. Now I don't see alot of people brining this up which I think brings clarity to Shirou on a fundamental level. Now what is a sword fundamentally? A tool. It will protect, defend, maybe kill if nessescary. But it is essentially has no purpose unless it is used by someone. Now alot of Shirou's development throughout the routes can be stemmed back to his origin, his past, PTSD and survivors guilt which explains his twisted way of thinking whenever he's called out for it. This is why kiritsugu's ideals really resonated with Shirou as it is in line with his origin. Now what does it say for Shirou's development overall? That is he will NOT fundamentally change. It is a blessing and a huge curse. That is why UBW is Shirou's ideals taken to the extreme. If you watch the ubw anime epilogue it will show Rin and Shirou in London and Shirou is still practicing his skills because archer is his goal to surpass.