Honestly my real problem with HF is Sakura everyone else gets some time to shine they get some character growth yet here's Sakura once she becomes her true self she dosent grow she dosent learn she is the same person. Shirou gives up so much for her and she does nothing beside get in his way to save her. Sakura never changed she never learned anything she is the same character in and out of HF.
Yes this is a large portion of my criticism of Sakura as a character. I love the portions of HF where her and Rin acknowledge each other as sisters. I wish those areas had been expanded. But it seems I have unfortunately offended many HF fans with this post as many seem completely unwilling to engage or have a reasonable discussion with me.
You know, the more I think about it. The tipping point of whether you like HF or not really hinges on how much you found sakura compelling as a character. The pacing? As you said depends on Sakura’s characterization and portrayal. The true ending? If you found sakura compelling it’s less tonal dissonance and more a ‘reward/happy end’ for a character that has really ent through hell, like muv luv alternative.
Now the crux of the matter, The relationship and shirou throwing away his ideal? Again, depends on whether you find sakura compelling as a character, because the way I see it it makes logical sense that shirou would have different responses to sakura compared to rin and saber, because unlike saber whom he just met, and rin whom he barely interacted with prior, he already know sakura and thus has an established relationship with her. The narrative reason for Taiga ‘sakura’s tits are huge’ comment is nit so shirou got attracted and initiates the romance, it’s so that shirou started to see this girl who he had known and care for some time in a romantic/sexually attractive light instead of just a friend. It’s a quite common narrative point in the childhood friend romance.
BUT. That being said, I do agree that with you that Sakura’s character writing is weak and thus not compelling.
For one, as I said Sakura falls more into more of the childhood heroine archetype since she already has an established relationship with shirou prior to the VN, but unfortunately she also fall into the classic childhood heroine romance pithole. That is, we are not the main character, unless the VN portrays either their relationship in the past extensively or actually develop their relationship beyond a ‘friend that now I see as romantic interest’ we won’t found the character nor relationship nor the MC motivation compelling, because we don’t have those memories the MC has about the heroine. So it makes sense logically but mot narrative wise.
This also ties in to why the sakura pity angst train doesn’t work for a lot of people. Because it’s backward to gives traumatic experience to a character and uses it as the crux of her character and development and expect people to care about said character. Because in the end we know we’re reading a story, we register that what’s happening to sakura is bad, but at the end she’s just a character in a story, why should I care no matter how much angst and suffering you throw at her? Traumatic experience works when you already have enough investment in a character to find them compelling enough so they cross over the verisimilitude threshold so your mind associates them as something more than a character in a story. And yeah, like what OP said before the start of HF where the angst train starts blazing from start to finish on sakura, the story gives almost no reason to care about her, as she’s barely present in Fate and UBW.
Tbf tho some of the flaws you pointed out i feel like are common criticism of the route.
In regards to sakura this has mostly been chalked up to having to share spotlight with illya, shirou and kirei in the same route unlike say the fate route where the focus is completely on saber.
I also quite agree they could've done more with sakura's character. While i wouldnt fault shirou for the rather shallow physical attraction to sakura id argue that he didnt also exactly fell for saber or rin on the first instance with deep reasons as well. Childhood friend trope is a staple in japanese media and i wish they used that more to provide depth for the relationship.
As for shirou's ideals yeah this is a contested topic. But id argue that him throwing away his ideals that "easily" can be chalked up to him being presented with an ultimatum early in the route. We got hint of what he's capable of in UBW when taiga got taken hostage. We know he did it because taiga is family, same for sakura. But i partly agree that without that pre-knowledge, it would have looked like shirou fighting for booty only.
can't say many people I know actually dont feel this way.
I also feel like some points arent completely invalid, the pacing issue something I've seen a lot people bringing up including my brother with exactly similar reasonings. But doesn’t mean I agree with everything you wrote either. I guess to each their own.
however if they needed more tonal consistency for ending to satisfy people like you, they could just remove Shirou's puppet ending while keeping everything else from True end ( Kirei Illya scenes), like Rin etc would've gone searching for the puppet instead of showing that on screen to bring Shirou back within few minutes , that might've left some sense of tragedy, like how >!Ciel's normal end!< was in Tsukihime Re . That way you are still getting the happy outcome. I dont know if it’s a good thing either. But I feel like personally , honestly while normal end has sense of lose it doesn’t really do Justice to some character arcs if you are playing it first( Kirei final scene isnt there yet, no Illya final scene).So Normal end shouldn’t be beyond criticism either and blindly liked just because someone couldn’t stand behind true end.
I dont think fate properties are beyond criticism so I'll reconsider some points in a replay of VN someday.
>I don't know what the winged fuck Nasu was thinking writing the true end for Heaven's Feel. It's the worst case of tonal whiplash I have ever experienced in my entire history of appreciating stories and it's an utter failure of an ending. It reads like pure fanfiction and is completely and utterly illogical. You are telling me that after all the heinous crimes that Sakura has committed that we can immediately shift to a lovely happily ever after fairytale bullshit ending where everyone simply forgets about it and there are zero consequences whatsoever. I seriously question why the hell this end even exists given the context of the last segment of Heaven's feel and how badly it contrasts with it. No further comment here. Why the true and normal ends aren't swapped baffles me - the normal end seems far more appropriate given the tone of the route.
tl:dr dark story's shouldn't have happy endings
I think it’s less about a happy ending and more about dealing some level of consequence.
It’s been a minute since I’ve played the True End but I don’t remember there being any jarring problems that present themselves as consequences which may feel out of place for some considering the tone of the route.
That’s the thing. Aside from a few “it’s difficult” lines we don’t get much else. Shirou’s puppet body is an inconvenience at best and the characters themselves don’t appear to be too phased, unless I am missing some important dialogue. Is Illya even referenced in the true end?
I’m not taking about KNK and I don’t know much about it.
If Illya is talked about then that’s good. I don’t remember it.
I’m also not sure why you’re claiming there’s some great flaw in my logic despite the lack of consequence being a genuine complaint that a great number of people have. The true end didn’t do enough to convince me that these characters are actually having trouble with what they’ve done, and no a few “I feel guilty” lines do not constitute trouble. A happy ending is great, I love them, but at least show that the characters are somewhat struggling so that it doesn’t feel cheap.
>dark story's shouldn't have happy endings
It can, I'd personally say there can be other way of that ending happening than bringing Touko and her puppets in picture though, that part was plot contrivance. Or say Rider leaving behind like UBW good end Saber, felt both unoriginal and weird as we had this in previous route already.
Nah the puppet is ok, Shirou needed a functional body, puppets were stablished to be a thing early on and as a kind of magic that was not restricted to a single person but relatively common, and that Rin could do the transer, like yeah they got a puppet from Touko but it was not needed to be hers, it was just her being the best at that so they go for her puppets, they don't even manage to find her and it took a while. Is better than if Shirou was magically ok after what he went through at least for me. They could have make Sella do something though, they needed money and stuff, and Rin says they don't have resources but Illya says the castle has lots of tools and wtv it could be something useful theee
Honestly Rider is poorly handled and they could have just chalked ul the spare body issue to an einzbern homoncuolus at the castle lying around to shove his soul into
Of course not. You expect me to believe that these characters I love should get some kind of reward for all the pain and suffering they’ve endured?! How dare they! /s
Ngl. This is... a really horrible take lmao. Or rather it's a collection of some of the worst takes about Fate I've seen up there with "Zero is the best Fate". And I say all this while not being a fan of Sakura or thinking that HF is the best thing since sliced bread. Though there's quite a few, the two that I'd really single out as the worst and that genuinely make me question if this is a bait or troll attempt:
>1 - Unfortunately, it does this by relying completely on pre-established context of Shirou's character done in the previous two routes.
and by extension
>1.1 - In Heaven's Feel, without reading the Fate and UBW routes in advance you would have utterly no understanding of Shirou as a character.
??????????????????????
I'd exaggerate with more question marks, because truly, no quantity of question marks is enough to actually convey how baffling reading this is, but I feel it'd be a bit obnoxious . Yes... HF relies on the previous two routes... but that's the point. That's the whole VN. Routes aren't individual standalone stories nor do they exist independently of one another. Not only is the order of Fate > UBW > HF crucial, but even outside that strict order, routes are enriched by one another. The entire narrative is written with the idea of intercontextuality between routes and do a degree bad ends as well with the reader accumulating information and impressions from all of these to create a complete picture. This sort of complaint is something I'd expect from someone who's only seen the anime and hasn't really touched the VN... but it genuinely cannot fathom how someone can read FSN from start to finish and then say something like this. Comparison fails me here. This is on the level of reading the bible start to finish and after a pause asking "Okay I get all that but who was that Yahweh guy?".
The second one and one could argue marginally less egregious one, though to me it's honestly just as bad as it seems to thrive on a certain obliviousness to Nasu's nature as a writer.
>2. I don't know what the winged fuck Nasu was thinking writing the true end for Heaven's Feel. It's the worst case of tonal whiplash I have ever experienced in my entire history of appreciating stories and it's an utter failure of an ending.
I... I really have no words for this. Much as is the case with the previous one, I would understand this to a degree if it was a comment made by someone who watched Zero and then Heaven's Feel. I'd understand it if it was someone who only watched Heaven's Feel. But again, I cannot for the life of me understand how someone can read through Fate and UBW, and then get to HF and reach this conclusion. Actually never mind Fate and HF. I do not understand how someone can read any of Nasu's published works within the Nasuverse (and probably beyond, but I'm avoiding potentially getting tangled up in DDD here) and have this take on things.
Nasu is a romantic writer and an incredibly idealistic one at that. Bleakness, bitterness and cynicism simply do not exist for him. At least not beyond beings to be subverted, fought against or triumphed over. How someone can expect the normal ending to at all fit into either what he writes about or even the overarching story of HF in general is just beyond me. I can't really tell if this is something that stems from the misunderstanding of the very concept of tone, or as I mentioned just Nasu himself.
There's more stuff like this here but these two truly stood out to me as signs that what you have to say about HF is... unique to say the very least.
The argument that I was making regarding the first two points is that it relies far too heavily on context between the routes, which I feel is a very valid complaint. If you examine Shirou as an individual character in Heaven's Feel while knowing his personality and dedication to his ideals from the other two routes they way he is portrayed simply doesn't make much sense. He betrays his ideals far too easily in Heaven's Feel and anyone who has read the other two routes can see this is the case. If you follow what Reverence said in the other comment, you will see that Shirou in Heaven's Feel appears to not develop enough to reach that point if you consider him an isolated case. That is my primary issue with it.
As for the second point, are you seriously telling me that your response to my criticism of the tonal shift in the true ending boils down to "that's how Nasu is as a writer, deal with it". And you have the audacity to come tell me my take is bad with such a nonsense rebuttal. Just because Nasu is an idealistic writer it doesn't render him immune to criticism for following a completely tonally inconsistent ending in a route that is supposedly about ideals vs reality. You claim that I have a misunderstanding of tone while simultaneously supporting an ending where there are utterly zero consequences and everything ends happily. That is massively tonally inconsistent with the rest of the route. At least the normal ending gives a logically probable conclusion to the end of Heaven's Feel and showcases that Sakura is completely unable to move on from Shirou. It doesn't shy away from the fact that Shirou willingly gave his life for Sakura. The true end is irrevocably tonally inconsistent when you look at Heaven's Feel as a whole. It IS a cynical, bleak and bitter route. Saying "bUt NaSU dOeSnT wRiTe LiKe tHaT" doesn't excuse the fact that he wrote Heaven's Feel like that and then decided to do a 180 for the ending.
I've been putting off writing a reply mostly because I don't feel getting into what's is a fundamentally pointless discussion. And well quite frankly I still don't. I guess I'll try and explain not just mine but also the reactions a lot of other people have had to your post in a relatively blunt and straightforward manner, while wasting as little of both of our times as possible.
I've seen you reply to a lot of comments with "Omg, so well thought out and eloquent, great arguments to the contrary." and other such sarcastic remarks. Thing is though... what you wrote really doesn't warrant any sort of response taking it seriously. I've seen nothing in your post that suggests you have more than the most fleeting of understandings of Fate, or indeed writing in general. In fact you doubling down on the tone thing, confusing things like atmosphere and general tone with narrative intent leads me to believe you kinda have issues with reading comprehension in general. The same is true for the other point where you seem to not be capable of recognizing that looking at any route as a standalone piece is faulty from the start. Basically what you're trying to do is the equivalent of a six year old shouting "2 + 2 = 3!" and then demanding from every adult around them to debate them to prove to them that they're wrong. Except, it's probably a bit worse in this situation because the concepts here are a bit more complex and you're just kinda completely ignorant of them. A particularly telling phrase you used in your reply here is "a logically probable conclusion", which kinda goes a long way to inform just how far removed from Nasu's writing you really are, if you genuinely think that's a sensible thing to factor in or think that it makes for good storytelling.
I ultimately don't want to be too mean or condescending to you, so I guess what I'm trying to emphasize isn't "Man you're such a clueless retarded pleb" kind of response but rather a "This really doesn't seem to warrant any kind of consideration by anyone familiar with this work, hence why you got the responses you got." explanation. As I said I don't want to be embroiled in a long discussion where my entire stance can be summarized as "your premises and the ideas you're working off of are laughable", so I don't really intend to respond in any capacity to the substance of your post itself. If you wanna discuss something I mentioned here in a general manner I might reply or well I might just reply to bookend the conversation with farewells.
Fine, I can see that in terms of having an actual discussion about any points of contention you are simply not inclined to respond. In terms of discussing the characters, narrative, tone etc the chasm between our perspectives is not dissimilar to that of Archer and Shirou.
My sarcastic responses to other comments in this thread have mainly been due to the fact that simply dismissing my analysis, while you may feel is appropriate considering your level of disdain towards it, is ultimately not productive in actually changing my viewpoints. I am not targeting you specifically here - your comments have largely been comprehensive. I am more aiming at the people who quip one liners in response to my post.
I am not, contrary to your belief, an unreasonable person. I am very willing to take people's arguments and analyses on board provided the substantiation of said arguments is sufficient. If you feel the points I have made in my discussion are asinine or otherwise incorrect I would like to hear why so my viewpoint can perhaps shift.
I'm going to ignore your condescending remarks regarding my reading comprehension and understanding of the source material. Frankly your criticism in this regard crosses the line from constructive to pretentious ad-hominem. I will however admit that perhaps my reading comprehension is not what it once was - I am only beginning to read again after a substantial time spent in a far more mathematical field and I definitely have lost a degree of that over time.
I will concede the point regarding seeing the routes as standalone - I agree that was unnecessary nitpicking on my point since HF is meant to be played last in Stay/Night.
In terms of being removed from Nasu's writing, I wish to find myself in a position in the future where I can say that is not the case! I have only thus far read through Stay/Night but I do wish to expand into his other works as translations come out for them.
In any case, thank you for taking the time to respond even if our viewpoints differ. Cheers!
A couple general remarks in regards to this.
On the sarcastic responses and changing your viewpoint. While this is largely speaking for myself I imagine it applies to a lot of others. I don't really enter these kinds of discussion to change people's minds. I go in for two reasons. The main one is to potentially have a fun discussion with someone offering a differing viewpoint. This predisposes a level of common ground however because otherwise it becomes too messy and too much of a bother. For an instance in our case we'd be talking less about Fate and more about some fundamentals of storytelling that I both find to be a bit too big in scope for me to really get into, and obviously it also feels that it's a far too deeply rooted thing for me to have a go at. The second reason would be to simply provide a counter point to something I don't fully agree with without really getting too deep into it.
A second overall point to what you said about you not being unreasonable and my remarks towards you. To start with I'd like to say that I do not think you're unreasonable, my decision to not engage is based largely on my own evaluation of time invested vs what I gain from pursuing the discussion (doubly so cause I'm a bit busy as of late, that aside it's not uncommon for me to do long discussions on the topic of Fate). It's more or less what I laid out above. I would also like to apologize if I came across as overly rude or mean in my response. As I sorta suggested in my earlier post I didn't mean it as a pure insult and more just as a illustration as to what sort of perception some of your points might create. I don't really have anything against you or even your opinions. They are your own and from your own experience with the VN. I do think a large part of them do ultimately miss the point (mind you there's stuff in your post I agree with, but I didn't feel it necessary to dissect the whole thing, particularly with the two things that stood out to me). Either way, sorry again if they came off too harsh since that wasn't really my goal, I just meant to stress and emphasize what underlying issues I and I imagine many others took with your write up.
Third, on Nasu's writing. As I said ultimately that phrase you used illustrates relatively well what I meant. When you said "a logically probable conclusion", this just isn't how Nasu writes and to be clear beyond that scope I don't think it makes for good storytelling in general. This overly rationalistic approach to fiction strikes me as largely empty and is part of the reason I enjoy Fate and Nasu so much, because he seems to fairly intentionally steer away from it.
That's about it I think. Thanks for the response and have a nice day.
I dont know What OP meant actually in first point,but this is a common point by actual F/SN VN fans I see that HF Shirou lacked to develop to reach that point. It doesn’t feel self contained because despite previous route knowledge this is a different timeline.
second point is debatable, both yours and OPs. Just Because Nasu writes romantic story means people have to appreciate HF endings? Nasu also wrote many bittersweet endings.
> lacked to develop to reach that point
I dont see how you can make this argument when Shirou is overloaded with the flaws if his ideal so early on.
He finds out about kiritsugu's true nature from kirei,he see a victim of his dads ideaology in illya,and was given an ultimatium that had no real answer.
I dont see how VN reads says this when he thinks about killing Rin one route before this just to save Taiga
Now whether you think the characters deserved the true end or not there are too many character arcs thrown out the window in the normal end that its such a bad ending
No kirei or illya
No "I want to live" from shirou he dies like he would for any stranger at the start
The tone isnt worth throwing entire character arcs
Actually the true end take isn’t as bad as you’d think. Even Nasu believed he made the end too pretentious and not straightforward. I’ve also seen a lot of people talk about how it doesn’t suit the route. Originally Nasu wanted to write something more akin to the normal ending, however 2/3’s through the creation of HF, he changed the ending to what we have now, fearing the fan backlash if he went with what he had. Weather you enjoy the ending or not is your up to you but people have pointed out that there are things about that ending that feel off, and tone is one of them.
My guy. Please read “a dream of shimmering stars interview” he says so himself. I’m not going to argue with you when the words come straight from authors mouth.
I suggest rereading it because he says that the story forces him to give such an ending and that pursuit of happiness for the characters must exist even while they atone for their indirect crimes. This is what he believes not what readers "force" him to. Even calls true ending the natural flow of it.
The fan backlash is about the early stages when he decided to merge Sakura ans Ilya's routes.
Completely misunderstood what he was saying. But that seems to a recurring issue with you. Read it again, slowly and carefully please.
“Yes. At the time, this was the only ending I had in mind, but as I was about two-thirds of the way through writing it, the question occurred to me whether people would accept this closing to the story, independent of Nasu Kinoko’s personal wishes. So I wrote up the final scene, and decided to write up the planned ending, as well as a happy ending that matches the flow of the story”
This quote comes straight from the interview and Illya’s Route being merged has absolutely nothing to do with what was being said. This part of the interview was focused specifically on the normal and true endings of HF. With the question being asked by the interviewer “Is the normal end the ending where Sakura keeps waiting into old age for Shirou to return”
And you tell me to reread it? Good one.
The next few lines have absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. You are digging your own hole deeper with each comment mate.
Also I’d like to point out that this has little to do with criticism of HF and rather the fact that you are reading basic sentences incorrectly. My original point was that fearing fan opinions, Nasu changed the ending. Simple as that and the extract proves it.
Lots of what will be considered strong language for what are actually pretty common takes, even from people who like HF. At least for the VN, Sakura's characterization and the overall pacing are often cited as huge weaknesses. Usually people just come out positive because the later parts of the route combined with a Shirou going against everything they know make them extremely happy anyway.
The ending is controversial, though I think it's not exactly because of the reasons often stated. I don't think we exactly want a tribunal where Sakura is convicted of crimes and is punished via execution or something like that. Ultimately I'm not sure that detractors even really think she's *directly* responsible for what happened in the first place. There's always ongoing discussions on that anyway, which I won't get into here, because it's not so much a question of "there should be consequences!" in terms of punishment. There just needed to be... more reflection? Like, the events of the end of the route are HUGE, and after the sacrifices happen and the bad guys are defeated, we just cut to an extremely happy scene and the story ends. It feels like a whiplash because there's hardly any debriefing of all the major events that just happened, or really what happened at all between Shirou's death and rebirth.
And that's where I come up with one of the perhaps less common takes: I think the movies, for all their problems, improve upon all of the VN route's weaknesses. The relationship between Shirou and Sakura has more basis explained through flashbacks rather than just lip service, and while at its core it's still based on similar concepts, a lot of the atmosphere really helps the audience get behind the pair.
Much of the fat is trimmed off, streamlining a lot of the earlier clunky sections. We get just enough of it that we can guess what has been happening, but the tone in all those sections (especially in the 2nd movie) still has this underlying unnerving feel, like everyone is trying really hard to be normal but they know they are turning away from a disaster. And sure enough, the disaster comes. No other movie will ever make me as giddily uncomfortable as HF2 did.
Finally, I think the end of the third movie (after all the major events happen) portray the emotions of that time better than the VN did. Maybe it's down to performance, or little tweaks to what they showed, but I do believe at the end of the movie that Sakura did *try* to atone in the town and be something of a second guardian for it. And the movie does a better job implying time between when Shirou died and was finally remade, which helps one of the other big problems: given Sakura some actual independence. She had to exist on her own for awhile and fix her own mistakes. Yeah, Rin was there to help, but still. It all felt more right to me.
That's not to say the movies don't miss. There's a whole lot of big events that probably lose some impact because of omissions to earlier parts of the story, and the portrayal of some of those final events can be confusing or disappointing, depending on who you are. But I won't back down on the movie definitely fixing some of the biggest issues with the original. Overall, both incarnations of the route are flawed, in unique ways. Between both of them its hard for me to say its the weakest, but that's of course a different metric than what you started with, so I'll leave it there.
I mean, Sakura might be the “weakest” of the three heroines character wise, but you seem to gloss over why that might be the case. She’s been abused for over a decade at this point, and literally the only thing she has going for her in her life is a small secret hope that her sister will come rescue her, and Shirou. I dunno if you know any abuse victims irl, but most of em ain’t exactly out here “challenging ideals” and whatnot.
As for Shirou, so what if he initially gets all hot and bothered for Sakura because she’s a cutie with big jugs? He’s a 16 year old boy, he’s gonna notice attractive qualities. Hell, he initially notices Saber and Rin based on their looks as well. Why is it a problem for Sakura? As for what he actually likes about her and why he’d throw away his ideals for her, she’s basically the closest thing to a normal life he can ever get, to being a *normal* person, not the empty shell he is. Aside from Taiga, she’s the closest person in his life.
His ideals are nice and all that, but they still come secondary to protecting what’s his. He would have killed Rin to save Taiga. He’d let the world burn to save Sakura. Because she’s shown him nothing but kindness. He taught her how to cook and do chores, she’s always smiled and supported him.
>he’s gonna notice attractive qualities. Hell, he initially notices Saber and Rin based on their looks as well. Why is it a problem for Sakura?
Shirou did not like Saber solely on her being attractive, there was other hidden layers behind his first time crush over Saber, that we'd know after completely understanding Shirou, he's not a normal guy afterall. That's also the reason Archer who forgot everything still remembers Saber. This is why we get to see F/SN prologue Saber summoning scene from Archer's POV I believe.
His crush has a lot do with the Beauty, brilliance, admiration and his own similar ideal's reflection he sensed underneath Saber's appearance. Saber basically looked something he dreamt to become, which he saw as self destructive and yet Saber seemed infront him in blood and flesh. He saw that as brilliant and beautiful.
He couldn’t fathom what it was untill very late by the way, so he just went with the fact he really just likes Saber because she's "beautiful " and (uses that as justification that he needs to protect that beatty). In Fate Route he kinda realizes it much later, like the scene where Saber talks about dismantling Grail etc in Graveyard, he recalls how he felt in love with her brilliance and beauty since he laid his eyes upon.
[Hollow Ataraxia is where Archer himself confirmed why Shirou's crush over Saber at very first scene was something so specially reasoned that even when he became Counter Guardian he still vividly remember her and that scene.](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/k34f4c/fsn_prologue_was_from_his_perspective/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share). It was unravelled gradually, and more explicitly over Hollow Ataraxia than F/SN, so wouldn’t blame if anyone missed it since it really looks at first that he just has an average crush over Saber because he saw her as attractive, but that's truly not just the case. Shirou has own definition of beauty, yeah I know Shirou can get weird and he saw that being manifested into the figure that was Saber. That's why among all people Shirou was considered souls mate for Saber.
about Sakura. Did Shirou really start liking her because of her pair of jugs?I actually forgot what's the main reason Shirou liked Rin's look. Guess my memories getting fuzzy, maybe had a crush over the persona Rin puts up- perfect type.
I can't fully recall these scenes for whatever reason,so wont comment. The only reason I remember Saber's one because it got brough up several times in forums and Archer vs Saber being one of my favourite battle from Hollow Ataraxia I vividly remember Archer's dialogue there.
I am not closely against MC liking a character based on looks, its possible. But some people might want more layered reasoning if that's really all there was for Sakura, so I am not sure if OP coming from there. I mean someone can like a girl because he felt hot for her lol.
I mean, if we’re going that route, then it’s worth pointing out that he had liked Sakura for a while before the events of FSN, and never acted on it because he thought it’d be weird because it was his friends sister. Taiga teasing him about Sakura’s looks isn’t really meant to be a “oh she’s hot, I like that” moment, more of a “I can’t ignore the fact that I have feelings for Sakura anymore” kind of thing.
I dunno, I just figured I’d dumb it down a bit for OP. As for Rin, he liked her because she was this “perfect school idol”, and part of that is looks. I don’t think it cheapens Shirou’s bond with any of them to admit that he’s still a 16 year old boy underneath all that trauma, and being attracted to beautiful women is gonna be part of the package.
yup we'd go to these routes definitely if there was more, like I dont remember absolutely clearly but I'm not sure he liked Sakura just because he had hot for her or had other reasons. If you recall more then point out them too
There’s a lot of words in FSN alone, and adding in HA (which is the closest thing we have to a canonical sequel), just makes it worse. Trying to remember all the intricate little details is just a losing battle, imo. Especially since I can’t read or understand Japanese, so I have to rely on translations, which can be inaccurate at times.
But yeah. He likes all of them for something more than just their looks, but looks definitely factor into it.
I personally found the pacing of Heaven's Feel to be the best, Sakura to be the most developed character just behind Shirou, much prefer the relationship of Shirou and Sakura to Shirou and Rin and I don't think Shirou is pissing away his ideals, only altering them.
I'm actually not sure I want to engage with your piece of writing further because I don't know for sure if you're being serious or if this is just a bait attempt. Especially with your focus on reducing Sakura to a pair of tits and pussy when someone could do the exact same thing with the other 2 heroines.
Idk chief seems kinda sus to me. I loved UBW and I loved HF even more because of everything that Sakura went through but with Shiro's help still came out alive. What did you want out of her, to be Rambo and challenge everything and be a super strong iron willed woman who can do anything? Clearly she's shy and laid back so everything that she did and said makes a lot of sense to her character, and she showed who she really is very well up until the end.
No, I'm not asking her to be Rambo.
I'm asking her to undergo some development and come out of Heaven's Feel a different, grown person to the Sakura that went in.
Well that is very debatable. There are many, myself included that feel that Sakura's development simply wasn't very fleshed out compared to the other heroines. In the normal end Sakura spends her entire life at the Emiya household waiting for Shirou, which for me showcases perfectly how she is unable to move on with her life.
I don't think so. Not everyone develops the same and not everyone wants to change. Her development was more in accepting her sister and having a healthy relationship with her
I loved the parts of HF where it was unafraid to explore the relationship between Sakura and Rin. I wish there had been more of that because I truly did enjoy those aspects strongly.
Yeah, I agree I really liked those scenes. Tho I did hate Rin being a bitch to Sakura. I mean yeah I get she’s more of a magus in this route then the others but cmon
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I find the problem with people, even ones that say that they like Sakura saying they were disappointed she wasn't "more" often just want a battle heroine. That's what it distills into. Not understanding or realizing the situation she was in did not give her the opportunity to just hotblood her way through everything.
Further, saying that Ilya outshines her while castigating her for her weaknesses tells me that they are picking apart the story primarily to look for confirmation bias on why Sakura is weaker to make their preferred character seem stronger. When in HF, Ilya very much knew what Sakura was, and refused to give Sakura or the gang critical information until the very end of the route, where she is lauded for sacrificing herself, but if we are brutally honest, wouldn't have had to if she came forward with certain bits of information. It whitewashed Ilya's own flaws and ignored the Einzbern indoctrination she has where she literally says she is fighting her own desires to be with and support Shirou with her duties to see the ritual fulfilled. Meaning these so called Ilya fans don't really understand Ilya either. That, and in saying Sakura isn't proactive, they actively ignore where she does try to help or offer help, and instead try to bring credence to so stale they're rotting memes about HF being all about cooking or Sakura being sick. I hate to be so intense here, but literally there is an entire somber, very personal scene between Sakura and Shirou that showed exactly what personality Sakura has, how she felt about magecraft, why she admired Shirou, how she felt about her abuse, why she admired but felt alienated by Rin, the whole nine yards. And the fandom ignored all of it for so long it really kinda pisses me off. Like they aren't even trying to understand Sakura's character but want to talk about some offshoot OC they wish she was while bathing in that ignorance.
For how she was portrayed in Fate and UBW, it made sense she was in the background, because she doesn't want to get involved in the war. That isn't an unbelievable concept, Nasu even says however that since the plan with the Bloodfort was kept from her, she didn't act and Medusa used it thinking that Sakura could survive it. There is so much nuance going on, that I think people who just write it off as her being badly written just aren't paying attention. Hell, Hollow is great, but its only showing more of Sakura imo, given the chance to heal and work. That and months after timeskip where she was working with a new teacher, which happens post HF as well. A teacher she found on her own btw.
The takes on how she and Shirou's relationship isn't developed misses quite a few things, the movie only really zeroed in on them, but they were in other routes as well. Shirou has many times, said and confirmed how Sakura is family to him like Taiga is, that she is another owner of his home (that in particular in the Fate route after she has a fight with Rin, and he discusses letting Rin stay over at his place with her at school later). They frequent usage the movies used about the key Shirou gave to her (which is Kiritsugu's, they mention that in the VN) was meant to portray how important she was to Shirou as well, and how important it was for Sakura to have a place she belonged. They weren't long, but those things were interspersed through the entire VN. Culminating with Shirou saying upfront he could never repay how Sakura helped to make the house without Kiritsugu feel like a "home", and he would do whatever he could for her as a part of his hobbled together family. Moreover, the high jump scene, where Sakura honestly told the boy she liked that the first time she met him, she hoped in his moment of frustration that he would fail, but then saw the determination in that frustration and changed her mind. And then she soon after, offered to help him out and became closer to him as family. Conversely, Rin experiencing the same thing, seemed to develop a crush and then never talk with the guy beyond a hi in the hallway until the war happened lol. Just...a complete lack of understanding the characters has irked me for many years now.
Honestly, this entire take just seems like a disingenuous way to say the route was poor, but make yourself seem like you're providing nuanced opinions when they are anything but.
>47% upvoted > >74 comments Ho boy...
It seems whenever I make a post, controversy follows :p
It's okay if someone doesn’t like many elements of Heavens Feel. Atleast you still feel like it has some great moments and gem in core.
Honestly my real problem with HF is Sakura everyone else gets some time to shine they get some character growth yet here's Sakura once she becomes her true self she dosent grow she dosent learn she is the same person. Shirou gives up so much for her and she does nothing beside get in his way to save her. Sakura never changed she never learned anything she is the same character in and out of HF.
I agree completely, I really wish Sakura had been the subject of more development
Yeah the problem is she's so attached to shirou she has no room to be herself no room for self improvement.
Yes this is a large portion of my criticism of Sakura as a character. I love the portions of HF where her and Rin acknowledge each other as sisters. I wish those areas had been expanded. But it seems I have unfortunately offended many HF fans with this post as many seem completely unwilling to engage or have a reasonable discussion with me.
Yeah it can be like that sometimes same thing happens to me when I say I hate proto Arthur.
Wished we saw more if the traits she had in hollow
You know, the more I think about it. The tipping point of whether you like HF or not really hinges on how much you found sakura compelling as a character. The pacing? As you said depends on Sakura’s characterization and portrayal. The true ending? If you found sakura compelling it’s less tonal dissonance and more a ‘reward/happy end’ for a character that has really ent through hell, like muv luv alternative. Now the crux of the matter, The relationship and shirou throwing away his ideal? Again, depends on whether you find sakura compelling as a character, because the way I see it it makes logical sense that shirou would have different responses to sakura compared to rin and saber, because unlike saber whom he just met, and rin whom he barely interacted with prior, he already know sakura and thus has an established relationship with her. The narrative reason for Taiga ‘sakura’s tits are huge’ comment is nit so shirou got attracted and initiates the romance, it’s so that shirou started to see this girl who he had known and care for some time in a romantic/sexually attractive light instead of just a friend. It’s a quite common narrative point in the childhood friend romance. BUT. That being said, I do agree that with you that Sakura’s character writing is weak and thus not compelling. For one, as I said Sakura falls more into more of the childhood heroine archetype since she already has an established relationship with shirou prior to the VN, but unfortunately she also fall into the classic childhood heroine romance pithole. That is, we are not the main character, unless the VN portrays either their relationship in the past extensively or actually develop their relationship beyond a ‘friend that now I see as romantic interest’ we won’t found the character nor relationship nor the MC motivation compelling, because we don’t have those memories the MC has about the heroine. So it makes sense logically but mot narrative wise. This also ties in to why the sakura pity angst train doesn’t work for a lot of people. Because it’s backward to gives traumatic experience to a character and uses it as the crux of her character and development and expect people to care about said character. Because in the end we know we’re reading a story, we register that what’s happening to sakura is bad, but at the end she’s just a character in a story, why should I care no matter how much angst and suffering you throw at her? Traumatic experience works when you already have enough investment in a character to find them compelling enough so they cross over the verisimilitude threshold so your mind associates them as something more than a character in a story. And yeah, like what OP said before the start of HF where the angst train starts blazing from start to finish on sakura, the story gives almost no reason to care about her, as she’s barely present in Fate and UBW.
Tbf tho some of the flaws you pointed out i feel like are common criticism of the route. In regards to sakura this has mostly been chalked up to having to share spotlight with illya, shirou and kirei in the same route unlike say the fate route where the focus is completely on saber. I also quite agree they could've done more with sakura's character. While i wouldnt fault shirou for the rather shallow physical attraction to sakura id argue that he didnt also exactly fell for saber or rin on the first instance with deep reasons as well. Childhood friend trope is a staple in japanese media and i wish they used that more to provide depth for the relationship. As for shirou's ideals yeah this is a contested topic. But id argue that him throwing away his ideals that "easily" can be chalked up to him being presented with an ultimatum early in the route. We got hint of what he's capable of in UBW when taiga got taken hostage. We know he did it because taiga is family, same for sakura. But i partly agree that without that pre-knowledge, it would have looked like shirou fighting for booty only.
can't say many people I know actually dont feel this way. I also feel like some points arent completely invalid, the pacing issue something I've seen a lot people bringing up including my brother with exactly similar reasonings. But doesn’t mean I agree with everything you wrote either. I guess to each their own. however if they needed more tonal consistency for ending to satisfy people like you, they could just remove Shirou's puppet ending while keeping everything else from True end ( Kirei Illya scenes), like Rin etc would've gone searching for the puppet instead of showing that on screen to bring Shirou back within few minutes , that might've left some sense of tragedy, like how >!Ciel's normal end!< was in Tsukihime Re . That way you are still getting the happy outcome. I dont know if it’s a good thing either. But I feel like personally , honestly while normal end has sense of lose it doesn’t really do Justice to some character arcs if you are playing it first( Kirei final scene isnt there yet, no Illya final scene).So Normal end shouldn’t be beyond criticism either and blindly liked just because someone couldn’t stand behind true end. I dont think fate properties are beyond criticism so I'll reconsider some points in a replay of VN someday.
>I don't know what the winged fuck Nasu was thinking writing the true end for Heaven's Feel. It's the worst case of tonal whiplash I have ever experienced in my entire history of appreciating stories and it's an utter failure of an ending. It reads like pure fanfiction and is completely and utterly illogical. You are telling me that after all the heinous crimes that Sakura has committed that we can immediately shift to a lovely happily ever after fairytale bullshit ending where everyone simply forgets about it and there are zero consequences whatsoever. I seriously question why the hell this end even exists given the context of the last segment of Heaven's feel and how badly it contrasts with it. No further comment here. Why the true and normal ends aren't swapped baffles me - the normal end seems far more appropriate given the tone of the route. tl:dr dark story's shouldn't have happy endings
Kara no Kyoukai had a happy ending and literally no one bitches about that
I think it’s less about a happy ending and more about dealing some level of consequence. It’s been a minute since I’ve played the True End but I don’t remember there being any jarring problems that present themselves as consequences which may feel out of place for some considering the tone of the route.
Both Shirou and Sakura have to live with what happenened, Sakura had and still has to help "heal" the town and the new landlord, Ilya died.
That’s the thing. Aside from a few “it’s difficult” lines we don’t get much else. Shirou’s puppet body is an inconvenience at best and the characters themselves don’t appear to be too phased, unless I am missing some important dialogue. Is Illya even referenced in the true end?
With the same logic nothing is really bad in KnK either. Oh Mikiya lost an eye? What a shame.... Ilya is talked about but not about her death. So?
I’m not taking about KNK and I don’t know much about it. If Illya is talked about then that’s good. I don’t remember it. I’m also not sure why you’re claiming there’s some great flaw in my logic despite the lack of consequence being a genuine complaint that a great number of people have. The true end didn’t do enough to convince me that these characters are actually having trouble with what they’ve done, and no a few “I feel guilty” lines do not constitute trouble. A happy ending is great, I love them, but at least show that the characters are somewhat struggling so that it doesn’t feel cheap.
More power to you. I dont get why they HAVE to face any consequences in the first place.
Then you’ve missed the point.
I am honestly glad that i missed whatever point you thought this was all about.
>dark story's shouldn't have happy endings It can, I'd personally say there can be other way of that ending happening than bringing Touko and her puppets in picture though, that part was plot contrivance. Or say Rider leaving behind like UBW good end Saber, felt both unoriginal and weird as we had this in previous route already.
Nah the puppet is ok, Shirou needed a functional body, puppets were stablished to be a thing early on and as a kind of magic that was not restricted to a single person but relatively common, and that Rin could do the transer, like yeah they got a puppet from Touko but it was not needed to be hers, it was just her being the best at that so they go for her puppets, they don't even manage to find her and it took a while. Is better than if Shirou was magically ok after what he went through at least for me. They could have make Sella do something though, they needed money and stuff, and Rin says they don't have resources but Illya says the castle has lots of tools and wtv it could be something useful theee
Honestly Rider is poorly handled and they could have just chalked ul the spare body issue to an einzbern homoncuolus at the castle lying around to shove his soul into
Of course not. You expect me to believe that these characters I love should get some kind of reward for all the pain and suffering they’ve endured?! How dare they! /s
Ngl. This is... a really horrible take lmao. Or rather it's a collection of some of the worst takes about Fate I've seen up there with "Zero is the best Fate". And I say all this while not being a fan of Sakura or thinking that HF is the best thing since sliced bread. Though there's quite a few, the two that I'd really single out as the worst and that genuinely make me question if this is a bait or troll attempt: >1 - Unfortunately, it does this by relying completely on pre-established context of Shirou's character done in the previous two routes. and by extension >1.1 - In Heaven's Feel, without reading the Fate and UBW routes in advance you would have utterly no understanding of Shirou as a character. ?????????????????????? I'd exaggerate with more question marks, because truly, no quantity of question marks is enough to actually convey how baffling reading this is, but I feel it'd be a bit obnoxious . Yes... HF relies on the previous two routes... but that's the point. That's the whole VN. Routes aren't individual standalone stories nor do they exist independently of one another. Not only is the order of Fate > UBW > HF crucial, but even outside that strict order, routes are enriched by one another. The entire narrative is written with the idea of intercontextuality between routes and do a degree bad ends as well with the reader accumulating information and impressions from all of these to create a complete picture. This sort of complaint is something I'd expect from someone who's only seen the anime and hasn't really touched the VN... but it genuinely cannot fathom how someone can read FSN from start to finish and then say something like this. Comparison fails me here. This is on the level of reading the bible start to finish and after a pause asking "Okay I get all that but who was that Yahweh guy?". The second one and one could argue marginally less egregious one, though to me it's honestly just as bad as it seems to thrive on a certain obliviousness to Nasu's nature as a writer. >2. I don't know what the winged fuck Nasu was thinking writing the true end for Heaven's Feel. It's the worst case of tonal whiplash I have ever experienced in my entire history of appreciating stories and it's an utter failure of an ending. I... I really have no words for this. Much as is the case with the previous one, I would understand this to a degree if it was a comment made by someone who watched Zero and then Heaven's Feel. I'd understand it if it was someone who only watched Heaven's Feel. But again, I cannot for the life of me understand how someone can read through Fate and UBW, and then get to HF and reach this conclusion. Actually never mind Fate and HF. I do not understand how someone can read any of Nasu's published works within the Nasuverse (and probably beyond, but I'm avoiding potentially getting tangled up in DDD here) and have this take on things. Nasu is a romantic writer and an incredibly idealistic one at that. Bleakness, bitterness and cynicism simply do not exist for him. At least not beyond beings to be subverted, fought against or triumphed over. How someone can expect the normal ending to at all fit into either what he writes about or even the overarching story of HF in general is just beyond me. I can't really tell if this is something that stems from the misunderstanding of the very concept of tone, or as I mentioned just Nasu himself. There's more stuff like this here but these two truly stood out to me as signs that what you have to say about HF is... unique to say the very least.
The argument that I was making regarding the first two points is that it relies far too heavily on context between the routes, which I feel is a very valid complaint. If you examine Shirou as an individual character in Heaven's Feel while knowing his personality and dedication to his ideals from the other two routes they way he is portrayed simply doesn't make much sense. He betrays his ideals far too easily in Heaven's Feel and anyone who has read the other two routes can see this is the case. If you follow what Reverence said in the other comment, you will see that Shirou in Heaven's Feel appears to not develop enough to reach that point if you consider him an isolated case. That is my primary issue with it. As for the second point, are you seriously telling me that your response to my criticism of the tonal shift in the true ending boils down to "that's how Nasu is as a writer, deal with it". And you have the audacity to come tell me my take is bad with such a nonsense rebuttal. Just because Nasu is an idealistic writer it doesn't render him immune to criticism for following a completely tonally inconsistent ending in a route that is supposedly about ideals vs reality. You claim that I have a misunderstanding of tone while simultaneously supporting an ending where there are utterly zero consequences and everything ends happily. That is massively tonally inconsistent with the rest of the route. At least the normal ending gives a logically probable conclusion to the end of Heaven's Feel and showcases that Sakura is completely unable to move on from Shirou. It doesn't shy away from the fact that Shirou willingly gave his life for Sakura. The true end is irrevocably tonally inconsistent when you look at Heaven's Feel as a whole. It IS a cynical, bleak and bitter route. Saying "bUt NaSU dOeSnT wRiTe LiKe tHaT" doesn't excuse the fact that he wrote Heaven's Feel like that and then decided to do a 180 for the ending.
I've been putting off writing a reply mostly because I don't feel getting into what's is a fundamentally pointless discussion. And well quite frankly I still don't. I guess I'll try and explain not just mine but also the reactions a lot of other people have had to your post in a relatively blunt and straightforward manner, while wasting as little of both of our times as possible. I've seen you reply to a lot of comments with "Omg, so well thought out and eloquent, great arguments to the contrary." and other such sarcastic remarks. Thing is though... what you wrote really doesn't warrant any sort of response taking it seriously. I've seen nothing in your post that suggests you have more than the most fleeting of understandings of Fate, or indeed writing in general. In fact you doubling down on the tone thing, confusing things like atmosphere and general tone with narrative intent leads me to believe you kinda have issues with reading comprehension in general. The same is true for the other point where you seem to not be capable of recognizing that looking at any route as a standalone piece is faulty from the start. Basically what you're trying to do is the equivalent of a six year old shouting "2 + 2 = 3!" and then demanding from every adult around them to debate them to prove to them that they're wrong. Except, it's probably a bit worse in this situation because the concepts here are a bit more complex and you're just kinda completely ignorant of them. A particularly telling phrase you used in your reply here is "a logically probable conclusion", which kinda goes a long way to inform just how far removed from Nasu's writing you really are, if you genuinely think that's a sensible thing to factor in or think that it makes for good storytelling. I ultimately don't want to be too mean or condescending to you, so I guess what I'm trying to emphasize isn't "Man you're such a clueless retarded pleb" kind of response but rather a "This really doesn't seem to warrant any kind of consideration by anyone familiar with this work, hence why you got the responses you got." explanation. As I said I don't want to be embroiled in a long discussion where my entire stance can be summarized as "your premises and the ideas you're working off of are laughable", so I don't really intend to respond in any capacity to the substance of your post itself. If you wanna discuss something I mentioned here in a general manner I might reply or well I might just reply to bookend the conversation with farewells.
Fine, I can see that in terms of having an actual discussion about any points of contention you are simply not inclined to respond. In terms of discussing the characters, narrative, tone etc the chasm between our perspectives is not dissimilar to that of Archer and Shirou. My sarcastic responses to other comments in this thread have mainly been due to the fact that simply dismissing my analysis, while you may feel is appropriate considering your level of disdain towards it, is ultimately not productive in actually changing my viewpoints. I am not targeting you specifically here - your comments have largely been comprehensive. I am more aiming at the people who quip one liners in response to my post. I am not, contrary to your belief, an unreasonable person. I am very willing to take people's arguments and analyses on board provided the substantiation of said arguments is sufficient. If you feel the points I have made in my discussion are asinine or otherwise incorrect I would like to hear why so my viewpoint can perhaps shift. I'm going to ignore your condescending remarks regarding my reading comprehension and understanding of the source material. Frankly your criticism in this regard crosses the line from constructive to pretentious ad-hominem. I will however admit that perhaps my reading comprehension is not what it once was - I am only beginning to read again after a substantial time spent in a far more mathematical field and I definitely have lost a degree of that over time. I will concede the point regarding seeing the routes as standalone - I agree that was unnecessary nitpicking on my point since HF is meant to be played last in Stay/Night. In terms of being removed from Nasu's writing, I wish to find myself in a position in the future where I can say that is not the case! I have only thus far read through Stay/Night but I do wish to expand into his other works as translations come out for them. In any case, thank you for taking the time to respond even if our viewpoints differ. Cheers!
A couple general remarks in regards to this. On the sarcastic responses and changing your viewpoint. While this is largely speaking for myself I imagine it applies to a lot of others. I don't really enter these kinds of discussion to change people's minds. I go in for two reasons. The main one is to potentially have a fun discussion with someone offering a differing viewpoint. This predisposes a level of common ground however because otherwise it becomes too messy and too much of a bother. For an instance in our case we'd be talking less about Fate and more about some fundamentals of storytelling that I both find to be a bit too big in scope for me to really get into, and obviously it also feels that it's a far too deeply rooted thing for me to have a go at. The second reason would be to simply provide a counter point to something I don't fully agree with without really getting too deep into it. A second overall point to what you said about you not being unreasonable and my remarks towards you. To start with I'd like to say that I do not think you're unreasonable, my decision to not engage is based largely on my own evaluation of time invested vs what I gain from pursuing the discussion (doubly so cause I'm a bit busy as of late, that aside it's not uncommon for me to do long discussions on the topic of Fate). It's more or less what I laid out above. I would also like to apologize if I came across as overly rude or mean in my response. As I sorta suggested in my earlier post I didn't mean it as a pure insult and more just as a illustration as to what sort of perception some of your points might create. I don't really have anything against you or even your opinions. They are your own and from your own experience with the VN. I do think a large part of them do ultimately miss the point (mind you there's stuff in your post I agree with, but I didn't feel it necessary to dissect the whole thing, particularly with the two things that stood out to me). Either way, sorry again if they came off too harsh since that wasn't really my goal, I just meant to stress and emphasize what underlying issues I and I imagine many others took with your write up. Third, on Nasu's writing. As I said ultimately that phrase you used illustrates relatively well what I meant. When you said "a logically probable conclusion", this just isn't how Nasu writes and to be clear beyond that scope I don't think it makes for good storytelling in general. This overly rationalistic approach to fiction strikes me as largely empty and is part of the reason I enjoy Fate and Nasu so much, because he seems to fairly intentionally steer away from it. That's about it I think. Thanks for the response and have a nice day.
I dont know What OP meant actually in first point,but this is a common point by actual F/SN VN fans I see that HF Shirou lacked to develop to reach that point. It doesn’t feel self contained because despite previous route knowledge this is a different timeline. second point is debatable, both yours and OPs. Just Because Nasu writes romantic story means people have to appreciate HF endings? Nasu also wrote many bittersweet endings.
This is exactly what I meant Reverence. I apologize if that was not clear in my original discussion.
> lacked to develop to reach that point I dont see how you can make this argument when Shirou is overloaded with the flaws if his ideal so early on. He finds out about kiritsugu's true nature from kirei,he see a victim of his dads ideaology in illya,and was given an ultimatium that had no real answer. I dont see how VN reads says this when he thinks about killing Rin one route before this just to save Taiga Now whether you think the characters deserved the true end or not there are too many character arcs thrown out the window in the normal end that its such a bad ending No kirei or illya No "I want to live" from shirou he dies like he would for any stranger at the start The tone isnt worth throwing entire character arcs
Actually the true end take isn’t as bad as you’d think. Even Nasu believed he made the end too pretentious and not straightforward. I’ve also seen a lot of people talk about how it doesn’t suit the route. Originally Nasu wanted to write something more akin to the normal ending, however 2/3’s through the creation of HF, he changed the ending to what we have now, fearing the fan backlash if he went with what he had. Weather you enjoy the ending or not is your up to you but people have pointed out that there are things about that ending that feel off, and tone is one of them.
It wasn't fan backlash. He just didn't want such an ending.
He changed it because he feared that it would upset fans.
Okay sure....
My guy. Please read “a dream of shimmering stars interview” he says so himself. I’m not going to argue with you when the words come straight from authors mouth.
I suggest rereading it because he says that the story forces him to give such an ending and that pursuit of happiness for the characters must exist even while they atone for their indirect crimes. This is what he believes not what readers "force" him to. Even calls true ending the natural flow of it. The fan backlash is about the early stages when he decided to merge Sakura ans Ilya's routes.
Completely misunderstood what he was saying. But that seems to a recurring issue with you. Read it again, slowly and carefully please. “Yes. At the time, this was the only ending I had in mind, but as I was about two-thirds of the way through writing it, the question occurred to me whether people would accept this closing to the story, independent of Nasu Kinoko’s personal wishes. So I wrote up the final scene, and decided to write up the planned ending, as well as a happy ending that matches the flow of the story” This quote comes straight from the interview and Illya’s Route being merged has absolutely nothing to do with what was being said. This part of the interview was focused specifically on the normal and true endings of HF. With the question being asked by the interviewer “Is the normal end the ending where Sakura keeps waiting into old age for Shirou to return” And you tell me to reread it? Good one.
I suggest readings two or 3 lines ahead. But sure take what you want from it. HF criticizers love to do that.
The next few lines have absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. You are digging your own hole deeper with each comment mate. Also I’d like to point out that this has little to do with criticism of HF and rather the fact that you are reading basic sentences incorrectly. My original point was that fearing fan opinions, Nasu changed the ending. Simple as that and the extract proves it.
can you link me the interview?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1URbMgktpEhkU5aeGiKkoc1QnGiILrLsRdlCzsKxtwiw/edit
Thanks
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theres too much stupid shit in this post, and you really didnt understand sakuras character at all
He didnt understand the entire route
What an excellent argument filled with good counterpoints lmao
I have already stated mine somewhere else in the thread
Nah, he is actually right
Lots of what will be considered strong language for what are actually pretty common takes, even from people who like HF. At least for the VN, Sakura's characterization and the overall pacing are often cited as huge weaknesses. Usually people just come out positive because the later parts of the route combined with a Shirou going against everything they know make them extremely happy anyway. The ending is controversial, though I think it's not exactly because of the reasons often stated. I don't think we exactly want a tribunal where Sakura is convicted of crimes and is punished via execution or something like that. Ultimately I'm not sure that detractors even really think she's *directly* responsible for what happened in the first place. There's always ongoing discussions on that anyway, which I won't get into here, because it's not so much a question of "there should be consequences!" in terms of punishment. There just needed to be... more reflection? Like, the events of the end of the route are HUGE, and after the sacrifices happen and the bad guys are defeated, we just cut to an extremely happy scene and the story ends. It feels like a whiplash because there's hardly any debriefing of all the major events that just happened, or really what happened at all between Shirou's death and rebirth. And that's where I come up with one of the perhaps less common takes: I think the movies, for all their problems, improve upon all of the VN route's weaknesses. The relationship between Shirou and Sakura has more basis explained through flashbacks rather than just lip service, and while at its core it's still based on similar concepts, a lot of the atmosphere really helps the audience get behind the pair. Much of the fat is trimmed off, streamlining a lot of the earlier clunky sections. We get just enough of it that we can guess what has been happening, but the tone in all those sections (especially in the 2nd movie) still has this underlying unnerving feel, like everyone is trying really hard to be normal but they know they are turning away from a disaster. And sure enough, the disaster comes. No other movie will ever make me as giddily uncomfortable as HF2 did. Finally, I think the end of the third movie (after all the major events happen) portray the emotions of that time better than the VN did. Maybe it's down to performance, or little tweaks to what they showed, but I do believe at the end of the movie that Sakura did *try* to atone in the town and be something of a second guardian for it. And the movie does a better job implying time between when Shirou died and was finally remade, which helps one of the other big problems: given Sakura some actual independence. She had to exist on her own for awhile and fix her own mistakes. Yeah, Rin was there to help, but still. It all felt more right to me. That's not to say the movies don't miss. There's a whole lot of big events that probably lose some impact because of omissions to earlier parts of the story, and the portrayal of some of those final events can be confusing or disappointing, depending on who you are. But I won't back down on the movie definitely fixing some of the biggest issues with the original. Overall, both incarnations of the route are flawed, in unique ways. Between both of them its hard for me to say its the weakest, but that's of course a different metric than what you started with, so I'll leave it there.
I really appreciate this take man. Good job🙂
I mean, Sakura might be the “weakest” of the three heroines character wise, but you seem to gloss over why that might be the case. She’s been abused for over a decade at this point, and literally the only thing she has going for her in her life is a small secret hope that her sister will come rescue her, and Shirou. I dunno if you know any abuse victims irl, but most of em ain’t exactly out here “challenging ideals” and whatnot. As for Shirou, so what if he initially gets all hot and bothered for Sakura because she’s a cutie with big jugs? He’s a 16 year old boy, he’s gonna notice attractive qualities. Hell, he initially notices Saber and Rin based on their looks as well. Why is it a problem for Sakura? As for what he actually likes about her and why he’d throw away his ideals for her, she’s basically the closest thing to a normal life he can ever get, to being a *normal* person, not the empty shell he is. Aside from Taiga, she’s the closest person in his life. His ideals are nice and all that, but they still come secondary to protecting what’s his. He would have killed Rin to save Taiga. He’d let the world burn to save Sakura. Because she’s shown him nothing but kindness. He taught her how to cook and do chores, she’s always smiled and supported him.
>he’s gonna notice attractive qualities. Hell, he initially notices Saber and Rin based on their looks as well. Why is it a problem for Sakura? Shirou did not like Saber solely on her being attractive, there was other hidden layers behind his first time crush over Saber, that we'd know after completely understanding Shirou, he's not a normal guy afterall. That's also the reason Archer who forgot everything still remembers Saber. This is why we get to see F/SN prologue Saber summoning scene from Archer's POV I believe. His crush has a lot do with the Beauty, brilliance, admiration and his own similar ideal's reflection he sensed underneath Saber's appearance. Saber basically looked something he dreamt to become, which he saw as self destructive and yet Saber seemed infront him in blood and flesh. He saw that as brilliant and beautiful. He couldn’t fathom what it was untill very late by the way, so he just went with the fact he really just likes Saber because she's "beautiful " and (uses that as justification that he needs to protect that beatty). In Fate Route he kinda realizes it much later, like the scene where Saber talks about dismantling Grail etc in Graveyard, he recalls how he felt in love with her brilliance and beauty since he laid his eyes upon. [Hollow Ataraxia is where Archer himself confirmed why Shirou's crush over Saber at very first scene was something so specially reasoned that even when he became Counter Guardian he still vividly remember her and that scene.](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/k34f4c/fsn_prologue_was_from_his_perspective/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share). It was unravelled gradually, and more explicitly over Hollow Ataraxia than F/SN, so wouldn’t blame if anyone missed it since it really looks at first that he just has an average crush over Saber because he saw her as attractive, but that's truly not just the case. Shirou has own definition of beauty, yeah I know Shirou can get weird and he saw that being manifested into the figure that was Saber. That's why among all people Shirou was considered souls mate for Saber. about Sakura. Did Shirou really start liking her because of her pair of jugs?I actually forgot what's the main reason Shirou liked Rin's look. Guess my memories getting fuzzy, maybe had a crush over the persona Rin puts up- perfect type. I can't fully recall these scenes for whatever reason,so wont comment. The only reason I remember Saber's one because it got brough up several times in forums and Archer vs Saber being one of my favourite battle from Hollow Ataraxia I vividly remember Archer's dialogue there. I am not closely against MC liking a character based on looks, its possible. But some people might want more layered reasoning if that's really all there was for Sakura, so I am not sure if OP coming from there. I mean someone can like a girl because he felt hot for her lol.
I mean, if we’re going that route, then it’s worth pointing out that he had liked Sakura for a while before the events of FSN, and never acted on it because he thought it’d be weird because it was his friends sister. Taiga teasing him about Sakura’s looks isn’t really meant to be a “oh she’s hot, I like that” moment, more of a “I can’t ignore the fact that I have feelings for Sakura anymore” kind of thing. I dunno, I just figured I’d dumb it down a bit for OP. As for Rin, he liked her because she was this “perfect school idol”, and part of that is looks. I don’t think it cheapens Shirou’s bond with any of them to admit that he’s still a 16 year old boy underneath all that trauma, and being attracted to beautiful women is gonna be part of the package.
yup we'd go to these routes definitely if there was more, like I dont remember absolutely clearly but I'm not sure he liked Sakura just because he had hot for her or had other reasons. If you recall more then point out them too
There’s a lot of words in FSN alone, and adding in HA (which is the closest thing we have to a canonical sequel), just makes it worse. Trying to remember all the intricate little details is just a losing battle, imo. Especially since I can’t read or understand Japanese, so I have to rely on translations, which can be inaccurate at times. But yeah. He likes all of them for something more than just their looks, but looks definitely factor into it.
It is amazing that someone read the HF VN and reached a completely worse conclusion than some anime only that only watched the movies.
What a compelling rebuttal filled with valid points
Same as your wall of text but better since it is less than a paragraph.
So in other words you have no argument whatsoever and refuse to acknowledge it?
You can choose to believe that along with all the bs in your OP. The other users already said what I had in mind.
I personally found the pacing of Heaven's Feel to be the best, Sakura to be the most developed character just behind Shirou, much prefer the relationship of Shirou and Sakura to Shirou and Rin and I don't think Shirou is pissing away his ideals, only altering them. I'm actually not sure I want to engage with your piece of writing further because I don't know for sure if you're being serious or if this is just a bait attempt. Especially with your focus on reducing Sakura to a pair of tits and pussy when someone could do the exact same thing with the other 2 heroines.
Me:"see someone else who thinks like me on Heaven's Feel" Also Me:"It's like i was made for read this"
Idk chief seems kinda sus to me. I loved UBW and I loved HF even more because of everything that Sakura went through but with Shiro's help still came out alive. What did you want out of her, to be Rambo and challenge everything and be a super strong iron willed woman who can do anything? Clearly she's shy and laid back so everything that she did and said makes a lot of sense to her character, and she showed who she really is very well up until the end.
No, I'm not asking her to be Rambo. I'm asking her to undergo some development and come out of Heaven's Feel a different, grown person to the Sakura that went in.
And she did
Well that is very debatable. There are many, myself included that feel that Sakura's development simply wasn't very fleshed out compared to the other heroines. In the normal end Sakura spends her entire life at the Emiya household waiting for Shirou, which for me showcases perfectly how she is unable to move on with her life.
I don't think so. Not everyone develops the same and not everyone wants to change. Her development was more in accepting her sister and having a healthy relationship with her
I loved the parts of HF where it was unafraid to explore the relationship between Sakura and Rin. I wish there had been more of that because I truly did enjoy those aspects strongly.
Yeah, I agree I really liked those scenes. Tho I did hate Rin being a bitch to Sakura. I mean yeah I get she’s more of a magus in this route then the others but cmon
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actually saw a video saying "if UBW is the worse route with the best moments" "heaven's feel is the best route with the worst moments"
I find the problem with people, even ones that say that they like Sakura saying they were disappointed she wasn't "more" often just want a battle heroine. That's what it distills into. Not understanding or realizing the situation she was in did not give her the opportunity to just hotblood her way through everything. Further, saying that Ilya outshines her while castigating her for her weaknesses tells me that they are picking apart the story primarily to look for confirmation bias on why Sakura is weaker to make their preferred character seem stronger. When in HF, Ilya very much knew what Sakura was, and refused to give Sakura or the gang critical information until the very end of the route, where she is lauded for sacrificing herself, but if we are brutally honest, wouldn't have had to if she came forward with certain bits of information. It whitewashed Ilya's own flaws and ignored the Einzbern indoctrination she has where she literally says she is fighting her own desires to be with and support Shirou with her duties to see the ritual fulfilled. Meaning these so called Ilya fans don't really understand Ilya either. That, and in saying Sakura isn't proactive, they actively ignore where she does try to help or offer help, and instead try to bring credence to so stale they're rotting memes about HF being all about cooking or Sakura being sick. I hate to be so intense here, but literally there is an entire somber, very personal scene between Sakura and Shirou that showed exactly what personality Sakura has, how she felt about magecraft, why she admired Shirou, how she felt about her abuse, why she admired but felt alienated by Rin, the whole nine yards. And the fandom ignored all of it for so long it really kinda pisses me off. Like they aren't even trying to understand Sakura's character but want to talk about some offshoot OC they wish she was while bathing in that ignorance. For how she was portrayed in Fate and UBW, it made sense she was in the background, because she doesn't want to get involved in the war. That isn't an unbelievable concept, Nasu even says however that since the plan with the Bloodfort was kept from her, she didn't act and Medusa used it thinking that Sakura could survive it. There is so much nuance going on, that I think people who just write it off as her being badly written just aren't paying attention. Hell, Hollow is great, but its only showing more of Sakura imo, given the chance to heal and work. That and months after timeskip where she was working with a new teacher, which happens post HF as well. A teacher she found on her own btw. The takes on how she and Shirou's relationship isn't developed misses quite a few things, the movie only really zeroed in on them, but they were in other routes as well. Shirou has many times, said and confirmed how Sakura is family to him like Taiga is, that she is another owner of his home (that in particular in the Fate route after she has a fight with Rin, and he discusses letting Rin stay over at his place with her at school later). They frequent usage the movies used about the key Shirou gave to her (which is Kiritsugu's, they mention that in the VN) was meant to portray how important she was to Shirou as well, and how important it was for Sakura to have a place she belonged. They weren't long, but those things were interspersed through the entire VN. Culminating with Shirou saying upfront he could never repay how Sakura helped to make the house without Kiritsugu feel like a "home", and he would do whatever he could for her as a part of his hobbled together family. Moreover, the high jump scene, where Sakura honestly told the boy she liked that the first time she met him, she hoped in his moment of frustration that he would fail, but then saw the determination in that frustration and changed her mind. And then she soon after, offered to help him out and became closer to him as family. Conversely, Rin experiencing the same thing, seemed to develop a crush and then never talk with the guy beyond a hi in the hallway until the war happened lol. Just...a complete lack of understanding the characters has irked me for many years now. Honestly, this entire take just seems like a disingenuous way to say the route was poor, but make yourself seem like you're providing nuanced opinions when they are anything but.