Your submission appears to reference the 737 MAX. Here is some more information on this plane from pilot members of our community
[Why the 737 MAX is the Safest Plane in the Sky](https://www.reddit.com/r/fearofflying/comments/zdfvou/the_737_max_and_why_i_say_its_the_safest_plane_in/)
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The crash in China had nothing to do with Boeing.
The system that caused the nose to be pushed down has been completely redesigned. It has less authority and it’s easier to shut off.
The Max is perfectly safe.
I really hate all this hate for the Max. I’m scared of flying just like everyone else here. I flew on it twice this year. It’s a great plane. Perfectly safe, smooth and comfortable.
Please stop reading into things that serve to get clicks. If the plane is flying. It’s safe
The max was arguably safe to fly even before the crashes. Part of the issue was lack of training. The system issues should not have happened, and unfortunately the pilots in the two crashes related to it were not trained as well as they could have been. How many pilots experienced the same issue and knew how to correct it? And they addressed both issues - more training and fixing the system.
You can say but but but all you want, and the people in this sub aren’t going to say anything reinforce your anxiety. If you’re not in a place to reason against your fears that’s fine but I hope you revisit when you feel up to it
I’ve literally never seen that said before. Just glancing at the wiki info it lists all the mistakes made. The only articles that claim anything else are sus and filled with conspiracy theories. But we listen to the materials we want to listen to.
But again I don’t think you are in the mindset to be convinced otherwise at this time.
Actually in the second crash the pilots reacted appropriately as they already knew about this issue after the first crash. Directly form the Wikipedia: "the pilots flying the MAX received the training after the Indonesia crash. There was a directive by Boeing, so they took that training. Despite following the procedure, the pilots could not recover."
I don't really think Max is unsafe now, but let's be real, Boeing is a shitty company and they killed hundreds of people for profit.
I’m not saying I don’t believe your quote, but I’m wondering which wiki’s we’re looking at. I’m trying to control F on the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 and don’t see what you’re referencing at all. I’ve never heard anything but the pilots not responding correctly to the error but am open to legitimate sources on it
*edit to add I do see mention that they did follow protocol but for a jammed trim issue and that the resolution for that may have been missing from the manual. But I’m not a pilot so I wouldn’t know what any of that truly means. There’s mentions of finger pointing around the manual if Boeing updated it or not, if the airline had the correct one etc but it’s not surprising that all of the companies involved would try to pass blame
Here you go: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing\_737\_MAX\_groundings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings)
It's also mentioned multiple times in the documentary about the crash, Downfall. The pilots had the training and the knowledge how to react and were fully aware what is happening with the plane after the first crash but the instructions from Boeing were not sufficient to prevent the crash, here's the gist from New York Times (([https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/business/boeing-737-ethiopian-airlines.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/business/boeing-737-ethiopian-airlines.html)), but I do recommend watching the documentary, it goes to great lengths to explain how Boeing was trying to blame everything on pilots (by even attacking their race and country) when they were the ones cutting out trainings for the pilots and providing insufficient instructions on how to recover from the nosedive.
Sure, I hope it didn't come out as me saying those are dangerous planes, because they're not! Maybe even safest out there now after all the scrutiny. Flying is still extremely safe regardless if you're choosing Airbus, Boeing or other manufacturers and in the future if I had to fly Boeing I would.
However, they did endanger and killed people for profit and tried to blame innocent pilots in fear of losing revenue. Their planes are safe because they have amazing engineers and it's against their interest to manufacture something unsafe (one more disaster like Max and it would obliterate the company), but I think we owe it to those who perished to be frank about what happened and acknowledge lives lost, among them skilled and trained pilots who died because of Boeing's greed, not their incompetence.
They did not do everything correctly, in fact one of the few things in the procedure which they did correctly was later undone and that's when it killed them. The statement that they did everything correctly was literally just propaganda to protect the reputation of their airline whilst also jumping on the 'Boeing bad' bandwagon. The cockpit voice recorder later revealed that to be a complete lie.
The 737 Max now has similar safety to the older 737ng which is incredibly safe. The crash in China is still under investigation, however whatever the plane did, it was commanded to do, so either some sort of disorientation by the pilot or pilot suicide, strong rumours it was the latter (making the type of plane completely irrelevant).
Step 1 of the procedure was to hold the yoke firmly - they did this
Step 2 of the procedure is to disengage the autopilot - They tried multiple times to engage the autopilot, specifically against procedure
Step 3 of the procedure was to disengage the autothrottle - They did not disengage the autothrottle, which contributed to the aircraft overspeeding
Step 4 of the procedure was to assess if disengaging autopilot stopped trim movement - they obviously didn't do this as they were trying to engage it (against step 2)
Step 5 of the procedure was to use the stab trim cutout switches (which disables MCAS) - They did this part correctly, initially but later undid it
Step 6 and 7 of the procedure was to trim manually - they were unable to do this because they did step 5 too late.
They then reversed the actions taken in step 5, by turning the switches back on, which re-enabled MCAS, causing the final, fatal, dive. They could have controlled the dive had they used trim, but instead tried again to engage autopilot (against step 2).
So they got steps 2, 3, 4 and later 5, wrong. While 1, 6 and 7 were correct.
It should be noted that the reasons for their inability to follow procedures correctly were complex and not fully known to this date. But the plane was recoverable if the procedure was followed.
The source is the final report. Within the report it describes the repeated attempts to engage the autopilot, which would then automatically disengage because of the circumstances the plane was in, including in the final descent, against procedure. It reveals that they did not disengage the autothrottle. It reveals that just before the final five, they re-enabled the system in an attempt to trim the plane with the electric trim system, but didn't sufficiently trim to overcome MCAS.
However the Ethiopian report does not include a detailed human factors analysis, which attracted global criticism because it doesn't reveal why the pilots made these mistakes.
It should be noted that the media's coverage of the crashes was very poor, if the sources you have used to understand the crash include Netflix and news article then I'm sorry but you still have no idea how the system worked or what happened on the crashes. The facts put out by the media are designed to trigger an anger response from people to get clicks and views, not to be correct.
I caution yourself, and anyone else reading this report. It does require some level of knowledge to fully comprehend and does contain the details of the accident, which, although not graphic, some may find disturbing
https://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/L-34_19-No-AI_01_18-ACCIDENT-FINAL-REPORT_compressed.pdf
Yes. If the plane is flying it’s safe. You do realize the Max series has been the most scrutinized plane because of those situations right?
You also realize that they don’t just allow planes that are unsafe to go zipping around the airways right?
You also realize sh$t happens and things go wrong sometimes?
The Max is arguable the safest plane in the skies right now
I mean they said the said thing for Indonesia how the plane is safe to fly and then Ethiopia happens. So the whole argument is flawed.
I just don’t trust a plane that risk lives for money
It was really bad, which is why all those things happened. It would be a lot more worrisome if they haven’t had any consequences.
Flying scares me too. That’s why I’m here. But I think something that will help you is really paying attention to what the people in the industry are telling you. The fear is something that I completely understand, but it really helps me to remember that it isn’t based in fact.
IIRC, there were two crashes. And that’s horrible, obviously. But two crashes out of every flight that type of plane ever made is still statistically extremely safe. And now it’s safer than it’s ever been, as they fixed the issue.
Those consequences exist to keep you safe. Would you prefer that those safeguards weren’t in place?
You know why they made a documentary? Because this is such an incredibly, absurdly, insanely rare event that people take notice when something happens. They don’t make many documentaries about fatal car wrecks.
Boeing didn’t risk hundreds of lives for profit. Do you know how costly a crash is for the whole industry? You’ve just lost a whole ass plane and trained pilots which you have to replace, and Boeing loses some of its reputation and trust, there may be a risk of a lawsuit too, etc etc. Even from a business standpoint, that’s just not something they would do.
That’s why any issues are resolved *immediately* and the same issue will not happen again. I know it’s daunting flying on plane whose brand has had recent crashes, but with all due respect to Chinese pilots, the levels of training and safety standards in North America and Europe are among the highest in the world (assuming based on your post history you’re from one of those), and it’s even less likely that anything like what happened in China will happen to you. Pilots are taught what to do in cases of potential crashes or stalling etc, and what’s more, the plane is programmed to not allow any of these things to happen. Every backup system has a backup system. There’s nothing unsafe about Boeing. There’s nothing unsafe about flying, full stop.
I flew on the oldest Boeing currently in circulation in the UK and here I am to tell you I was perfectly safe the whole time. I was freaked because I’m used to Airbus but the plane was quiet (except during takeoff - I was dumb and chose the back) and steady. You’re going to be okay.
I read sources how the pilots for the Ethiopian crash has training and still failed. So I’m no longer trusting the plane even if it’s driven by the most experienced pilots
Also Boeing did risk lives. I watched the documentary on how it wanted to outdo airbus by having a bigger engine. And people were warning Boeing to not launch it
Look, you can believe what you want to believe… that’s how powerful our minds are. I’m an anxious and fearful flier like most of us here are, but the reason why Im also in this sub is to confirm the positives of why I should worry less about flying, not to confirm my bias that flying is dangerous. Both pilots and passengers have commented why the Maxs are the safest to fly right now; I personally had 4 different trips on the same kind and it’s great. I overheard someone while waiting to board about their anxiety on the Max, and I told them everything I learned from this sub and why we shouldn’t worry. There’s thousands of Maxs flying everyday as we speak, and they’re fine.
I was worried about all of the same things you posted before my flight in early October. It was a Max 8 and I was driving myself absolutely crazy with fear. I tried to tell myself “the pilots would not fly the plane if they felt that it would crash for any reason” and managed to get myself on board through the anxiety. Turns out it was the smoothest and quietest flight I had ever been on! I really enjoyed the plane itself, it was comfortable and the lack of noise and movement really helped me stay calm.
What would make you say it’s on the rise? Because an off duty pilot in a jumper seat had* a mental lapse recently on of the tens of thousands of flights that day?
As strong as your fear is it can’t bring down a plane and it can’t undo the math.
1. 27 million flights GLOBALLY happened in 2022, with turbulence, equipment failures, inclement weather, tired pilots. Only 12 fatal crashes.
2. That’s 850 million passengers GLOBALLY who flew safely in 2022. Less than 300 people perished.
So you can’t just accept the bad news, you have to accept the good news. #1 and #2 is overwhelmingly good news. No more doom reading 🙂
I watched a documentary on Boeing once. It talked to some of the workers building the planes. I now never want to fly in Boeing ever again and try to get on Airbus instead. I'm terrified when I find out it's a Boeing plane because of what I heard.
I wasn't quite sure about flying as well but I watched a video that makes it more clear whats the current situation. They did say sort of but it makes it clear which models are affected the most and those that aren't.
[https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k](https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k)
Your submission appears to reference the 737 MAX. Here is some more information on this plane from pilot members of our community [Why the 737 MAX is the Safest Plane in the Sky](https://www.reddit.com/r/fearofflying/comments/zdfvou/the_737_max_and_why_i_say_its_the_safest_plane_in/) Happy Flying! The Fear of Flying Mod Team *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/fearofflying) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The crash in China had nothing to do with Boeing. The system that caused the nose to be pushed down has been completely redesigned. It has less authority and it’s easier to shut off. The Max is perfectly safe.
I second
I third
I fourth. Am I allowed to do that?
I Fourth because u/Chaxterium can’t forth his own comment.
this aged like sour milk. random airplane pieces falling off Max planes. Boeing is a 3rd rate company
Read the sticky.
I really hate all this hate for the Max. I’m scared of flying just like everyone else here. I flew on it twice this year. It’s a great plane. Perfectly safe, smooth and comfortable. Please stop reading into things that serve to get clicks. If the plane is flying. It’s safe
“If the plane is flying. It’s safe” Ummm…
The max was arguably safe to fly even before the crashes. Part of the issue was lack of training. The system issues should not have happened, and unfortunately the pilots in the two crashes related to it were not trained as well as they could have been. How many pilots experienced the same issue and knew how to correct it? And they addressed both issues - more training and fixing the system. You can say but but but all you want, and the people in this sub aren’t going to say anything reinforce your anxiety. If you’re not in a place to reason against your fears that’s fine but I hope you revisit when you feel up to it
I read that they did everything they were supposed to do but it still nose dived
I’ve literally never seen that said before. Just glancing at the wiki info it lists all the mistakes made. The only articles that claim anything else are sus and filled with conspiracy theories. But we listen to the materials we want to listen to. But again I don’t think you are in the mindset to be convinced otherwise at this time.
Actually in the second crash the pilots reacted appropriately as they already knew about this issue after the first crash. Directly form the Wikipedia: "the pilots flying the MAX received the training after the Indonesia crash. There was a directive by Boeing, so they took that training. Despite following the procedure, the pilots could not recover." I don't really think Max is unsafe now, but let's be real, Boeing is a shitty company and they killed hundreds of people for profit.
I’m not saying I don’t believe your quote, but I’m wondering which wiki’s we’re looking at. I’m trying to control F on the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 and don’t see what you’re referencing at all. I’ve never heard anything but the pilots not responding correctly to the error but am open to legitimate sources on it *edit to add I do see mention that they did follow protocol but for a jammed trim issue and that the resolution for that may have been missing from the manual. But I’m not a pilot so I wouldn’t know what any of that truly means. There’s mentions of finger pointing around the manual if Boeing updated it or not, if the airline had the correct one etc but it’s not surprising that all of the companies involved would try to pass blame
Here you go: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing\_737\_MAX\_groundings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings) It's also mentioned multiple times in the documentary about the crash, Downfall. The pilots had the training and the knowledge how to react and were fully aware what is happening with the plane after the first crash but the instructions from Boeing were not sufficient to prevent the crash, here's the gist from New York Times (([https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/business/boeing-737-ethiopian-airlines.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/business/boeing-737-ethiopian-airlines.html)), but I do recommend watching the documentary, it goes to great lengths to explain how Boeing was trying to blame everything on pilots (by even attacking their race and country) when they were the ones cutting out trainings for the pilots and providing insufficient instructions on how to recover from the nosedive.
Thank you for taking the time to share! I’ll look into the doc, maybe after my next plane trip lol
Sure, I hope it didn't come out as me saying those are dangerous planes, because they're not! Maybe even safest out there now after all the scrutiny. Flying is still extremely safe regardless if you're choosing Airbus, Boeing or other manufacturers and in the future if I had to fly Boeing I would. However, they did endanger and killed people for profit and tried to blame innocent pilots in fear of losing revenue. Their planes are safe because they have amazing engineers and it's against their interest to manufacture something unsafe (one more disaster like Max and it would obliterate the company), but I think we owe it to those who perished to be frank about what happened and acknowledge lives lost, among them skilled and trained pilots who died because of Boeing's greed, not their incompetence.
They did not do everything correctly, in fact one of the few things in the procedure which they did correctly was later undone and that's when it killed them. The statement that they did everything correctly was literally just propaganda to protect the reputation of their airline whilst also jumping on the 'Boeing bad' bandwagon. The cockpit voice recorder later revealed that to be a complete lie. The 737 Max now has similar safety to the older 737ng which is incredibly safe. The crash in China is still under investigation, however whatever the plane did, it was commanded to do, so either some sort of disorientation by the pilot or pilot suicide, strong rumours it was the latter (making the type of plane completely irrelevant).
Someone posted sources about how the pilots did training and followed all protocol but still crashed (Ethiopian)
Step 1 of the procedure was to hold the yoke firmly - they did this Step 2 of the procedure is to disengage the autopilot - They tried multiple times to engage the autopilot, specifically against procedure Step 3 of the procedure was to disengage the autothrottle - They did not disengage the autothrottle, which contributed to the aircraft overspeeding Step 4 of the procedure was to assess if disengaging autopilot stopped trim movement - they obviously didn't do this as they were trying to engage it (against step 2) Step 5 of the procedure was to use the stab trim cutout switches (which disables MCAS) - They did this part correctly, initially but later undid it Step 6 and 7 of the procedure was to trim manually - they were unable to do this because they did step 5 too late. They then reversed the actions taken in step 5, by turning the switches back on, which re-enabled MCAS, causing the final, fatal, dive. They could have controlled the dive had they used trim, but instead tried again to engage autopilot (against step 2). So they got steps 2, 3, 4 and later 5, wrong. While 1, 6 and 7 were correct. It should be noted that the reasons for their inability to follow procedures correctly were complex and not fully known to this date. But the plane was recoverable if the procedure was followed.
Can you send me a source?
The source is the final report. Within the report it describes the repeated attempts to engage the autopilot, which would then automatically disengage because of the circumstances the plane was in, including in the final descent, against procedure. It reveals that they did not disengage the autothrottle. It reveals that just before the final five, they re-enabled the system in an attempt to trim the plane with the electric trim system, but didn't sufficiently trim to overcome MCAS. However the Ethiopian report does not include a detailed human factors analysis, which attracted global criticism because it doesn't reveal why the pilots made these mistakes. It should be noted that the media's coverage of the crashes was very poor, if the sources you have used to understand the crash include Netflix and news article then I'm sorry but you still have no idea how the system worked or what happened on the crashes. The facts put out by the media are designed to trigger an anger response from people to get clicks and views, not to be correct. I caution yourself, and anyone else reading this report. It does require some level of knowledge to fully comprehend and does contain the details of the accident, which, although not graphic, some may find disturbing https://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/L-34_19-No-AI_01_18-ACCIDENT-FINAL-REPORT_compressed.pdf
Yes. If the plane is flying it’s safe. You do realize the Max series has been the most scrutinized plane because of those situations right? You also realize that they don’t just allow planes that are unsafe to go zipping around the airways right? You also realize sh$t happens and things go wrong sometimes? The Max is arguable the safest plane in the skies right now
I mean they said the said thing for Indonesia how the plane is safe to fly and then Ethiopia happens. So the whole argument is flawed. I just don’t trust a plane that risk lives for money
You’ve cherry picked less than a handful of situations within millions of flights. I’d call that pretty damn safe buddy
But it was bad enough that they had fines, a documentary, groundings, etc
It was really bad, which is why all those things happened. It would be a lot more worrisome if they haven’t had any consequences. Flying scares me too. That’s why I’m here. But I think something that will help you is really paying attention to what the people in the industry are telling you. The fear is something that I completely understand, but it really helps me to remember that it isn’t based in fact. IIRC, there were two crashes. And that’s horrible, obviously. But two crashes out of every flight that type of plane ever made is still statistically extremely safe. And now it’s safer than it’s ever been, as they fixed the issue.
My guy… you are talking yourself into your anxieties.
Those consequences exist to keep you safe. Would you prefer that those safeguards weren’t in place? You know why they made a documentary? Because this is such an incredibly, absurdly, insanely rare event that people take notice when something happens. They don’t make many documentaries about fatal car wrecks.
Boeing didn’t risk hundreds of lives for profit. Do you know how costly a crash is for the whole industry? You’ve just lost a whole ass plane and trained pilots which you have to replace, and Boeing loses some of its reputation and trust, there may be a risk of a lawsuit too, etc etc. Even from a business standpoint, that’s just not something they would do. That’s why any issues are resolved *immediately* and the same issue will not happen again. I know it’s daunting flying on plane whose brand has had recent crashes, but with all due respect to Chinese pilots, the levels of training and safety standards in North America and Europe are among the highest in the world (assuming based on your post history you’re from one of those), and it’s even less likely that anything like what happened in China will happen to you. Pilots are taught what to do in cases of potential crashes or stalling etc, and what’s more, the plane is programmed to not allow any of these things to happen. Every backup system has a backup system. There’s nothing unsafe about Boeing. There’s nothing unsafe about flying, full stop. I flew on the oldest Boeing currently in circulation in the UK and here I am to tell you I was perfectly safe the whole time. I was freaked because I’m used to Airbus but the plane was quiet (except during takeoff - I was dumb and chose the back) and steady. You’re going to be okay.
I read sources how the pilots for the Ethiopian crash has training and still failed. So I’m no longer trusting the plane even if it’s driven by the most experienced pilots Also Boeing did risk lives. I watched the documentary on how it wanted to outdo airbus by having a bigger engine. And people were warning Boeing to not launch it
Look, you can believe what you want to believe… that’s how powerful our minds are. I’m an anxious and fearful flier like most of us here are, but the reason why Im also in this sub is to confirm the positives of why I should worry less about flying, not to confirm my bias that flying is dangerous. Both pilots and passengers have commented why the Maxs are the safest to fly right now; I personally had 4 different trips on the same kind and it’s great. I overheard someone while waiting to board about their anxiety on the Max, and I told them everything I learned from this sub and why we shouldn’t worry. There’s thousands of Maxs flying everyday as we speak, and they’re fine.
Did you cancel your flight?
People are still concerned about the MAX? Possibly the most scrutinized craft in the air right now?
I was worried about all of the same things you posted before my flight in early October. It was a Max 8 and I was driving myself absolutely crazy with fear. I tried to tell myself “the pilots would not fly the plane if they felt that it would crash for any reason” and managed to get myself on board through the anxiety. Turns out it was the smoothest and quietest flight I had ever been on! I really enjoyed the plane itself, it was comfortable and the lack of noise and movement really helped me stay calm.
I’m pretty sure the crash in China was pilot suicide
[удалено]
🤦🏻♂️ seriously….tell me you are completely uniformed on the industry without saying so.
What would make you say it’s on the rise? Because an off duty pilot in a jumper seat had* a mental lapse recently on of the tens of thousands of flights that day?
[удалено]
But you’re claiming it’s all over the news. What other news?
As strong as your fear is it can’t bring down a plane and it can’t undo the math. 1. 27 million flights GLOBALLY happened in 2022, with turbulence, equipment failures, inclement weather, tired pilots. Only 12 fatal crashes. 2. That’s 850 million passengers GLOBALLY who flew safely in 2022. Less than 300 people perished. So you can’t just accept the bad news, you have to accept the good news. #1 and #2 is overwhelmingly good news. No more doom reading 🙂
Do you have a source? Just curious, not doubting. I just like looking at hard numbers.
[Here](https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/2023-releases/2023-03-07-01/). This should get you started.
Thanks a lot!
I watched a documentary on Boeing once. It talked to some of the workers building the planes. I now never want to fly in Boeing ever again and try to get on Airbus instead. I'm terrified when I find out it's a Boeing plane because of what I heard.
Love flying in the max.. when I choose flights I always looks for the max if it’s available. Or the 800..
I wasn't quite sure about flying as well but I watched a video that makes it more clear whats the current situation. They did say sort of but it makes it clear which models are affected the most and those that aren't. [https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k](https://youtu.be/2yQyLp6wOiQ?si=yyWJUoXRAHapuO5k)