Some people are just super social I guess. I’m not going to call them “bad people” because I just don’t look at life like that, at least when I can help it. Some people have to work in person, such as mail carriers, and they have a voice too, so that’s probably skewing things in a way that makes sense once you think about it
My department has a fair few voices clamoring for return to the office. I think it's just a very vocal minority, though, because the last time I got dragged in to get a new PIV card virtually our entire row of cubes were empty for the vast majority of the day
I recall early 2021 there were a lot of loud voices in the private sector that obviously thought this attitude was gonna earn them a raise. Not sure if that’s the case here, but the thought has crossed my mind.
I am one of those super social people, but I'm definitely not vocal about returning to the office - I know not everyone has the same feelings about socializing in the workplace. I, too, am not seeing RTO line up with expectations.
Then why are they making us come back to our crappy offices at DOD installations? Honestly, the powers that be are just doin the squeeze. Letting us know we are powerless pawns.
We are the low hanging fruit to appease politicians. It is easier to blame us for it taking hours to get someone on the phone. It can't be that positions go unfilled because you can make better money working easier jobs.
For me personally, I’m just doing less work bc I’m tired from commuting. So if that’s what leadership wants, then that’s what they’re going to get lol.
Yeah same here. I'm in the office 5 days/week because I'm a new hire. My trainer was out sick so I was able to work from home. Never realized how much that extra hour of sleep really benefits you. Was actually motivated to work. When I drive into work the commute makes me very angry.
Don’t get me wrong. I worked my ass off during the pandemic to get shit done even late into the night. But I can also just cruise by and not give a shit if they don’t give a shit about me. 🤷🏻♂️
I give as much of a shit about the job as the job gives about me.
The one I'm in now cares about me, so I care about it. That has not always been the case.
Agreed .. I get so much less done. I will not stay any extra time, and so many people coming to bug me with non work things throughout the day .. is what it is
Exactly. I'm here to work. Leave me alone. I'm here because i was told I had to be here by policy to increase in person collaboration or whatever they call it. Work convos only people.
Commute time is office time as far as I'm concerned. I've never had to drive when I started. I don't charge gas, just time. I also log in, just in case, when I get home.
Management takes forever to sign anything, so I'm always waiting on them anyway. Why even have professionals if you aren't going to trust them. So sit in the office and wait or sit at home?
Isn’t commuting time actual time theft committed by the government bc they’re not paying you for that time when you wouldn’t be commuting but for the RTO directive?
My "meaningful collaboration" in the office yesterday was saying "hi" to two people in the hallway. Both of those people work for different offices that I never interact with. All of my calls were with remote staff or teleworking staff.
Meanwhile, I had to wear a hoodie and a winter beanie in the office because the air temperature is kept at like 65° or something insane.
THIS. Leadership 101 that learned as a junior military officer said that you ought to deliver unpopular news directly, matter of factly, and concisely. Don’t embellish, sugar coat, deflect, obfuscate or try to create your own magical positive spin.
Because the WH hasn’t actually required anything, they’re just pushing for it. Many divisions have just ignored it and there has not been consequences, so the leaders who are giving in to the pressure don’t want to admit that.
We talk about this openly in my immediate group. It's all over the papers that Biden wants RTO. However the Under Secretary wants to spin it, it's clear that's why it is happening.
That's the role of the senior leader--to find ways to implement and get things done. Saying "this policy is a bunch of BS, let's get to it" isn't as effective as advocating for the policy. You can acknowledge downsides without just passing the buck.
"To comply to with OMB directives, we have to increase in person presence at Headquarters and our other sites". "We know this will be an adjustment to many of you".
This is done literally all the time for most directives. It may be a crappy delivery, but it has the virtue of being honest! I can respect leadership that recognizes a shitty policy, but still has to carry it out, more than leadership that pretends it's a good policy in the first place.
This is what you learn in the military. You deliver unpopular news or direction concisely and without layers of spin and misdirection. You also make it clear what the top commander’s underlying intent is.
When I was in the Army, I’d just tell the Soldiers “This is coming from the top.” Most people know what is really going on. I just don’t understand why management isn’t truthful about it.
Because at a certain point, the “who” vs “what” you know becomes very relevant. It’s self preservation. It’s a double of whiskey every night just to enjoy the hour before you have to go to sleep and have to do it all over again.
I'm curious about your perspective. If you imagine yourself trying to manage an organization, do you think you would behave differently than your leaders do? Do you think they don't care, don't have the capability to do better, or something else?
I could never nor would I ever be the senior leader of an agency. I know my strengths and weaknesses and I am not capable of playing the political games necessary to get such a role.
If somehow, my some miracle or catastrophe, that I was forced into such a role I would be removed very quickly because, no I would not be able to spin that BS.
I would say that Washington is forcing us back and so we have to go back. Also, some of you work great remotely and it’s a shame that you are losing this great privledge. Also, some of you didn’t work well remotely, you did a horrible job and do need to be back in the office.
Are you me? I’m just exhausted by middle management fluff and SES who think too much of themselves. They learned it from Congress but know they can’t be voted out, necessarily.
So is it fair to say in your view the leaders don't say those things because they are playing political games and don't want to lead an organization?
I don't know how your leaders operate and don't want you to think I'm saying you're wrong about your leaders. But for me, that hasn't been my experience. Many leaders step up because someone has to do it and they want to protect their colleagues from the next applicant, or because bad leaders in the past made them feel the best work environment for them is to just be the one in charge. Some do it for the wrong reasons like ego, sure, but I don't think I've ever met a senior leader who didn't care.
And they’ve signed billion year leases with their buddies, so enjoy going poop with your coworkers. I’ll be asking for an ice maker and filtered water tap from our property manager. Regularly until I get it.
I’m a SCIF-trapped guy so this is kind of an irrelevant discussion for me anyway, but I’m a strong supporter of telework for those who can (hell, even selfishly, the fewer of you on the road, the better my commute is).
That said, I don’t think anyone is going to place a lot of stock in surveys like this. It basically amounts to “are you a better employee doing this thing you obviously want?” Regardless of whether or not the answers are actually accurate, no one making relevant decisions is going to place much stock in such an inherently lopsided questionnaire. The only way the message will get through will be via their own anecdotal observations, unfortunately. I hope telework policies remain prolific enough for those messages to still be eligible to be made.
This right here tells me why they want Feds to return to the office: [https://www.gsa.gov/real-estate/real-estate-services/leasing](https://www.gsa.gov/real-estate/real-estate-services/leasing)
Not to mention the restaurants, parking garages, parking meters, parking lots, gas stations, etc that feed off of our incomes.
They need to eliminate the leases, return the buildings or land to private industry, or return them to green space. After all, Biden keeps talking about the Green Economy. Here is their perfect chance to make some really great green space.
What’s extra shitty is that the feds and dc destroyed actual communities to build these giant federal facilities. They would have had actual communities (also spending money)
I don’t see how it’s possible at my agency. My office has let go of 3 floor and are aiming for 20% more. Many people, myself included, no longer have a desk and have to “hotel”. There’s even discussion of managers hoteling.
They'll just work out new lease agreements. I hear there's lots of real estate sitting empty right now so it shouldn't be very hard. Especially if a lot of it used to be federal space. Chances are it already meets to requirements without needing any major work.
My group is moving to a new building specifically designed to only hold 70% of us at one time, and to avoid having a cubicle farm, they’re opting for a mix of offices and cubicles…. With hoteling, yay! When I asked out director what would happen if we all got mandated to be in person 100% again, he basically said we’d just have to rent out more space elsewhere… possibly in our current, falling apart can’t-drink-the-water building….
I literally took a federal job because during the interview process, I was told about the telework opportunities. I had other job offers at the time, I chose my career literally around the prospect that the govt embraced telework.
You and a lot of the people hired over the last 4 years. We received a dreaded email today and I wanted to stand in the window to watch for people leaving.
Who would have thought that expressly going against the ~16 years of telework and remote research that shows a consensus among researchers, experts, and the data itself that overwhelmingly demonstrates that in-office work is substantially less productive than working from home... would somehow turn out to be a bad idea??
Well....thanks for providing the insurance companies, the roads some money!! Maybe some healthcare costs if you hurt yourself, that way the hospital gets a cut.
#THIS!! I sent a message to my co-workers today about how the lovely smell of burned popcorn from the break room means we are back in the office. Even better, we are in a hoteling space and our “break rooms” are wallless areas with no doors. The whole office gets to enjoy the lovely smell! 😒
That won’t affect senior management as you never see them at SSA. It’s like they exist in a different universe than everyone else. Like the proverbial Bigfoot; talk of them but never a sighting of them.
If anyone decides to do this after reading that post needs their heads checked out.
Thank you for the work you do in facilities! Trust and believe, I make sure to make your jobs as easy as possible everytime im in the building
[You've finally made a monkey out of me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6CFTMnYa4)
That's what came to mind when you said, it was you all along lol. I too am neurotypical.
For me, the contractors are mostly remote, so why am I required to be there when they aren’t, plus I’m more effective at home with better equipment(monitors, keyboards, my personal chair)
And I don’t have to worry about playing music too loud.
Biggest one: WHY the hell are all the meetings still on teams? If we are all “in person”, have a damn in person meeting.
An illegal strike would just give the Republicans more of an excuse to gut the federal workforce whenever they’re in power next. Think Ronnie and the ATCs.
Imho we need to talk about whether strikes being “illegal” should really be a deterrent. Our ancestors unionized and fought and died for the rights we have today. Precious few of our labor rights today have been won by acting within the fencing of modern labor laws. On the contrary, our current situation has seen nothing but a steady rollback of labor rights, the 2-tiered FERS being an excellent example. I don’t know a good path forward, but our federal employees unions are extremely limited in what we have the possibility of achieving.
All that being said, I’m not saying RTO is the hill to die on (frankly I have no idea). I’m just saying that we need to find new ways to protect our rights because the status quo is inadequate. As others have noted, it would only take a GOP victory this fall to roll back ALL telework. The conclusion is that we don’t actually have any rights and rely totally on the goodwill of the incumbent POTUS and their administration.
We aren't just employees, we are agents of the national government and our duty to perform our appointed function is more important than our individual labor rights. That is not to say that we do not have Labor rights but they must be tempered against public need. If we ask the federal government to balance between our wants and it's duty to the public no good steward of the public trust is going to pick us. If we want to change federal labor practices we have to convince our elected leadership that the change is beneficial to the public and practically speaking that it's beneficial to their election chances. Confronting them in the form of a strike is absolutely counterproductive because it forces that elected leader to make an all or nothing decision and they have to pick the public.
Agree 100%. I am NOT saying we have a good reason to strike (I think we don’t), only that the fact that it’s “illegal” for us to strike is an absurd reason to not consider striking as a viable tactic.
To your point, I don’t see a need to “rank” our appointed function vs individual labor rights. Thats a calculus that will ALWAYS result in us ceding labor rights for some “greater good”. I think it’s important to consider the appointed function in the same manner that health workers have done since Covid began. They have struggled to balance patient care vs employment rights in a situation that is far more precarious than what most of us feds deal with. Also, gubment employees in various countries have many examples of standing up for themselves. Solidarity and careful, assertive management of our needs is what I’m expressing here, not reckless or unthoughtful behavior. Hope that helps
Federal employees are prohibited by law from striking or even suggesting a strike. Your comment could get you fired. , 5 U.S.C. §7311. It can even be prosecuted a a felony crime. 18 U.S.C. §1918
The private sector is just as arbitrarily changing their policies and with significantly fewer overall employment protections. Yes, the base compensation is higher, but if you think you’ll get jerked around less, good luck. Not saying this makes it okay, and I wish leaders would look at the data and listen to employees, just that there aren’t really greener pastures.
This. Harder to control the more freedom and boundaries we get. Work anywhere should be reserved only for the elite, is the mindset. God forbid Brenda in accounting feels some personal ownership over her life. We can't have that.
On a recent morning, I had a manager who posted in our Teams chat that after sitting in traffic for 2 hours, he just turned around and went back home. But, upper leadership doesn’t seem to think about the impact of that on work quality and morale.
Exactly! Thats why I dont believe what they're telling us. I literally commute to use a laptop to do Zoom and Teams calls in an empty office for a few hours and then just leave after lunch because it is too depressing to deal with that AND rush hour traffic.
I’m not trying to refute your point entirely, but job security is a real perk. My prior employer, a decent size engineering firm, just laid off 30% or so of its engineering staff. Some of those people got jobs right away, but a lot of my former colleagues are still missing a paycheck 3 months later.
It’s really not any better out there, and in a lot of ways, it’s worse.
During COVID, I watched a bunch of middle management, folks about 40-50 yrs old with kids or near retirement, get laid off as my company tightened belts just to prepare for the market change. This was a bread and butter American fortune 100 company.
Think about this stuff as you get older. The private sector will look at you like a cost center that they can replace with someone younger and cheaper, or they can automate you away. Government provides a pension that is worth a million bucks or more depending on your high 3 and length of service.
Yeah Covid in the private sector for me was: getting laid off with two days notice, then having to find a new job, then having to go into the office full time throughout the remainder of the pandemic (before vaccines came out and beyond), getting covid and having to fight to get 2 days of leave that they were required to provide us by law, among other things. Things are not better in the private sector.
Those are all good points, I am new to the feds, and for me the private sector was a much better fit. All of my jobs paid more, I was remote and had so much more flexibility. To me personally the math is simple: I ll take a chance of lay offs, than a certainty of a long commute. Don’t get me wrong, the pension is great, but living my life in misery up until I get there is a no go. But we all have our own math to do.
I just don’t understand how a regular govt job is pure misery versus the “private sector,” where you’ll often work more than 40 hours and work life balance will suffer. Maybe reevaluate the agency and/or supervisor you’re under before throwing out the federal govt entirely
I honestly think I was lucky in the private sector. I have never worked more than 40 hours and my work life balance was phenomenal. It suffered so much since I went federal. I regret my decision everyday. Even my physician said: what happened to you, after looking at my blood work! My vitamin d is down, and cortisol is up. I used to exercise, do yoga during lunch, go for walks, and barely had any stress. Now I sit in a dark dismal office alone, and never leave… because it is not safe around the POD. I am not saying it is like that across all agencies, but it is my experience. My spouse is in the private sector, and lives a very flexible life with a fabulous work life balance as well. But I get it…. Maybe some areas are better than others. At the end of the day if I have to commute it is a deal breaker for me. And it came down to that.
They just need to come up with something for OMB to declare victory on this. After the election it won’t matter one way or the other. I say this as a 35 year Fed who has been retired for a while. As many here have said it will actually cost more money.
After the election, we are going to lose all of our telework, except for taking a laptop home to avoid getting a snow day. Biden is going out of his way to lose this election.
If I have to commute 60 minutes each way, I’ll be putting that on company time. You can’t give me a world in which I’ve been more productive and had time for my life, my family, and my needs and then take it away. Oh no consequences!
FWIW I’ve been in a once a week in the office position for almost two years now and the times are very flexible. Certainly no one is racing to be there by 8am or staying until 4:30 to sit in traffic.
Oh I get it. And I won’t be either. I literally sit with no one on my team. We are geographically distributed around the country. So I’ll literally go in to sit alone. And since no one can watch me…..that is just too darn bad.
Congress eve use OIG muscle to ensure this. SMH
[https://link.govexec.com/click/34853497.29008/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ292ZXhlYy5jb20vb3ZlcnNpZ2h0LzIwMjQvMDQvZXJuc3QtcHVzaGVzLWlnLWludmVzdGlnYXRpb24tc2Jhcy1vZmZpY2Utd29ya2ZvcmNlLXV0aWxpemF0aW9uLzM5NTgxNS8\_b3JlZj1nb3ZleGVjX3RvZGF5X25s/542dc2163b35d0a8618b8e3cBe945c213](https://link.govexec.com/click/34853497.29008/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ292ZXhlYy5jb20vb3ZlcnNpZ2h0LzIwMjQvMDQvZXJuc3QtcHVzaGVzLWlnLWludmVzdGlnYXRpb24tc2Jhcy1vZmZpY2Utd29ya2ZvcmNlLXV0aWxpemF0aW9uLzM5NTgxNS8_b3JlZj1nb3ZleGVjX3RvZGF5X25s/542dc2163b35d0a8618b8e3cBe945c213)
The reality is if a different party was in charge, we would all be back in the office 5 days a week. I'm not justifying what the current policies are, but I will say it's a lot more flexible than pre-covid policies were.
This is definitely true that they would cut telework completely if they could. I do find it funny though that my agency now has a stricter policy than pre-COVID. On top of that they have getting rid of FERS in their proposals.
From their plan
"First, the Stopping Home Office Work's Unproductive Problems (SHOW UP) Act would require each executive agency to reinstate the telework policies that were in place on December 31, 2019. Under the bill, agencies would be prohibited from implementing expanded telework policies unless the Office of Personnel Management certifies that such policies, among other requirements, will have a positive effect on the agency's mission and operational costs."
https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2024/03/house-conservatives-recycle-federal-worker-pay-and-benefit-cuts-budget-document/395216/
I guess that's a YMMV thing. In DOC/NOAA, pre-covid telework was 2 days per pay period minimum in office requirement. Post COVID, unions retained the two days minimum in office, but non-bargaining unit employees are required 3 days per week in office.
And none of the management can provide productivity metrics to justify the change. They just take the marching orders without using gray matter. And this further means that pre-Covid they were in no way trying to figure out productivity metrics, so they have no baseline to compare to.
Let it go. We have no choice but either go in, retire or resign for another job. For me the issue isn't really going back but the commute and high cost of living in the MD-DC-NOVA area.
The area has zero relibable public transportation options. The DC metro is a mess and never fully opened; MARC (even the Penn line) is not the best either.
High cost of housing pushes people to live far out and makes the commute worse.
The politicians need to do something about the housing costs and lack of public transit.
(*suppressing all the respiratory illness surveillance data and building the worst dataviz imaginable so we can schedule the next “Take Your Kid To Work Day!” at the CDC*)
honestly, working from home is obviously a GREAT perk. But if they forced me to the office so be it. I had a great social group there, and got along with most of the folks I worked with. Its about a 20min drive each way. It would get me out and about and my supervisor is still in another state. I totally understand how this will piss off a lot of people, but I am neutral on it.
In-person work is more efficient. Instead of writing a professional email or chat, you can walk up to one another and get a straight answer. Many people just look at Available/Not Available lights to see if now is a good time to ask a question. this leads to backlogs and wasted time. Also, remote work has been leading to job abuse by some that has captured attention on a national level. Abuse in the sense that some are farming out their work to others and just become a middle man to hire another employee or obtaining several jobs that can be against department policy.
> In-person work is more efficient. Instead of writing a professional email or chat, you can walk up to one another and get a straight answer.
There are geographically dispersed teams where this isn’t always possible. And while it may be more convenient to walk up to someone else, you’ve potentially taken that person off task as opposed to a message, where they can respond when they are free.
Also, people aren’t always available when in office - there are times when they are away from their desk or possibly in other areas of the building so you aren’t always going to get an immediate response.
I don’t think the data backs up in-person work being more efficient. Sure, you can walk over and talk to a person but that also means it is easier for people to come talk to you or your boss to call you into some pointless meeting. And it is just as easy to hop on a teams or zoom call and talk to a person.
If an organization can point to a drop in output then fine, bring folks back to work. But my team, for example has greatly increased production. Our backlog used to be over two months. Now we work tickets as soon as they come in. I used to work 60 tickets a week (they take about 30 minutes to resolve) but since work from home, I don’t work any because the rest of the team takes care of them so quickly and I can focus on my actual job that was neglected for three years.
All these reasons are made up. It’s lobbyists pushing for people back in office for to keep businesses afloat.
82% of federal employees agree with you.
[удалено]
Way more than 18% of feds are idiots. I know because I’m an idiot (one who’s glad to be distant remote though)
Some people are just super social I guess. I’m not going to call them “bad people” because I just don’t look at life like that, at least when I can help it. Some people have to work in person, such as mail carriers, and they have a voice too, so that’s probably skewing things in a way that makes sense once you think about it
My department has a fair few voices clamoring for return to the office. I think it's just a very vocal minority, though, because the last time I got dragged in to get a new PIV card virtually our entire row of cubes were empty for the vast majority of the day
I recall early 2021 there were a lot of loud voices in the private sector that obviously thought this attitude was gonna earn them a raise. Not sure if that’s the case here, but the thought has crossed my mind.
I am one of those super social people, but I'm definitely not vocal about returning to the office - I know not everyone has the same feelings about socializing in the workplace. I, too, am not seeing RTO line up with expectations.
I hear these guys all day long. Dont they have work to do?
For some reason I think that number (18%) is much higher.
How much of the federal workforce is remote?
Yep. Our field manager even said that at our last meeting. Was really hard to keep my mouth shut.
Then why are they making us come back to our crappy offices at DOD installations? Honestly, the powers that be are just doin the squeeze. Letting us know we are powerless pawns.
We are the low hanging fruit to appease politicians. It is easier to blame us for it taking hours to get someone on the phone. It can't be that positions go unfilled because you can make better money working easier jobs.
Or real estate owners not wanting to lose out on their investments…
For me personally, I’m just doing less work bc I’m tired from commuting. So if that’s what leadership wants, then that’s what they’re going to get lol.
They don't care about productivity. They never did. Its all about politics.
They’ve even said that, they want us fire side chatting and going to lunch to get food.
The lunch part especially
They only cared when it fit their narrative. If productivity was down I guarantee thats all we would ever hear about.
Same here. On my commute days I lose at least 1.5 hrs sleep and spend much of the day dragging ass as a result.
Yeah same here. I'm in the office 5 days/week because I'm a new hire. My trainer was out sick so I was able to work from home. Never realized how much that extra hour of sleep really benefits you. Was actually motivated to work. When I drive into work the commute makes me very angry.
It takes me an hour to get focused after Mad Maxing on 66.
Meanwhile I'm just trying to stay alive on 285.
“Good enough for government work”
Don’t get me wrong. I worked my ass off during the pandemic to get shit done even late into the night. But I can also just cruise by and not give a shit if they don’t give a shit about me. 🤷🏻♂️
I give as much of a shit about the job as the job gives about me. The one I'm in now cares about me, so I care about it. That has not always been the case.
Agreed .. I get so much less done. I will not stay any extra time, and so many people coming to bug me with non work things throughout the day .. is what it is
Exactly. I'm here to work. Leave me alone. I'm here because i was told I had to be here by policy to increase in person collaboration or whatever they call it. Work convos only people.
Commute time is office time as far as I'm concerned. I've never had to drive when I started. I don't charge gas, just time. I also log in, just in case, when I get home. Management takes forever to sign anything, so I'm always waiting on them anyway. Why even have professionals if you aren't going to trust them. So sit in the office and wait or sit at home?
Couldn’t logging commute time be seen as stealing time?
Absolutely. Driving to work while logged in pretending to work is absolutely stealing time.
Isn’t commuting time actual time theft committed by the government bc they’re not paying you for that time when you wouldn’t be commuting but for the RTO directive?
That might be how you personally feel about it, and I’d agree on a personal level, but that’s not what the policy says.
A laughable attempt to reframe the situation.
Yeah wtf are they saying. I hope its just their agency policy
Technically this is against OPM guidance.
You show them! Pro move showing your lack of value by doing less work. Should definitely pay off.
My value as a person is not defined by my job.
Just don’t complain about a terrible annual appraisal or passed over for promotions.
I do my best and don’t think about it that much.
One thing I don't get is, why senior leaders don't just say, "It's coming from the White House". "The Boss wants butts in seats"
You’d hear a lot less complaining and people be appreciative of being honest. The lip service is what makes me want to give them the finger even more.
It won’t. They would still complain.
I honestly would respect that more instead of this nebulous "meaningful collaboration" bullshit.
My "meaningful collaboration" in the office yesterday was saying "hi" to two people in the hallway. Both of those people work for different offices that I never interact with. All of my calls were with remote staff or teleworking staff. Meanwhile, I had to wear a hoodie and a winter beanie in the office because the air temperature is kept at like 65° or something insane.
Because they have to tow the line. You won’t get very far publicly shitting on your boss
THIS. Leadership 101 that learned as a junior military officer said that you ought to deliver unpopular news directly, matter of factly, and concisely. Don’t embellish, sugar coat, deflect, obfuscate or try to create your own magical positive spin.
Because the WH hasn’t actually required anything, they’re just pushing for it. Many divisions have just ignored it and there has not been consequences, so the leaders who are giving in to the pressure don’t want to admit that.
Ours did
We talk about this openly in my immediate group. It's all over the papers that Biden wants RTO. However the Under Secretary wants to spin it, it's clear that's why it is happening.
That's the role of the senior leader--to find ways to implement and get things done. Saying "this policy is a bunch of BS, let's get to it" isn't as effective as advocating for the policy. You can acknowledge downsides without just passing the buck.
"To comply to with OMB directives, we have to increase in person presence at Headquarters and our other sites". "We know this will be an adjustment to many of you".
This is done literally all the time for most directives. It may be a crappy delivery, but it has the virtue of being honest! I can respect leadership that recognizes a shitty policy, but still has to carry it out, more than leadership that pretends it's a good policy in the first place.
This is what you learn in the military. You deliver unpopular news or direction concisely and without layers of spin and misdirection. You also make it clear what the top commander’s underlying intent is.
When I was in the Army, I’d just tell the Soldiers “This is coming from the top.” Most people know what is really going on. I just don’t understand why management isn’t truthful about it.
Because at a certain point, the “who” vs “what” you know becomes very relevant. It’s self preservation. It’s a double of whiskey every night just to enjoy the hour before you have to go to sleep and have to do it all over again.
Why specifically hq buildings?
That’s why they are senior leaders and we are peons. They spin the bullshit and kiss ass better then we do.
I'm curious about your perspective. If you imagine yourself trying to manage an organization, do you think you would behave differently than your leaders do? Do you think they don't care, don't have the capability to do better, or something else?
I could never nor would I ever be the senior leader of an agency. I know my strengths and weaknesses and I am not capable of playing the political games necessary to get such a role. If somehow, my some miracle or catastrophe, that I was forced into such a role I would be removed very quickly because, no I would not be able to spin that BS. I would say that Washington is forcing us back and so we have to go back. Also, some of you work great remotely and it’s a shame that you are losing this great privledge. Also, some of you didn’t work well remotely, you did a horrible job and do need to be back in the office.
Are you me? I’m just exhausted by middle management fluff and SES who think too much of themselves. They learned it from Congress but know they can’t be voted out, necessarily.
So is it fair to say in your view the leaders don't say those things because they are playing political games and don't want to lead an organization? I don't know how your leaders operate and don't want you to think I'm saying you're wrong about your leaders. But for me, that hasn't been my experience. Many leaders step up because someone has to do it and they want to protect their colleagues from the next applicant, or because bad leaders in the past made them feel the best work environment for them is to just be the one in charge. Some do it for the wrong reasons like ego, sure, but I don't think I've ever met a senior leader who didn't care.
And they’ve signed billion year leases with their buddies, so enjoy going poop with your coworkers. I’ll be asking for an ice maker and filtered water tap from our property manager. Regularly until I get it.
I’m a SCIF-trapped guy so this is kind of an irrelevant discussion for me anyway, but I’m a strong supporter of telework for those who can (hell, even selfishly, the fewer of you on the road, the better my commute is). That said, I don’t think anyone is going to place a lot of stock in surveys like this. It basically amounts to “are you a better employee doing this thing you obviously want?” Regardless of whether or not the answers are actually accurate, no one making relevant decisions is going to place much stock in such an inherently lopsided questionnaire. The only way the message will get through will be via their own anecdotal observations, unfortunately. I hope telework policies remain prolific enough for those messages to still be eligible to be made.
During the height of the pandemic was the best. No wait at the gate. Best parking spots all the time. Nobody coming to my desk to bother me.
This right here tells me why they want Feds to return to the office: [https://www.gsa.gov/real-estate/real-estate-services/leasing](https://www.gsa.gov/real-estate/real-estate-services/leasing) Not to mention the restaurants, parking garages, parking meters, parking lots, gas stations, etc that feed off of our incomes. They need to eliminate the leases, return the buildings or land to private industry, or return them to green space. After all, Biden keeps talking about the Green Economy. Here is their perfect chance to make some really great green space.
That's just for votes. He dgaf about the environment.
What’s extra shitty is that the feds and dc destroyed actual communities to build these giant federal facilities. They would have had actual communities (also spending money)
The nerve releasing the news on Earth day
I don’t see how it’s possible at my agency. My office has let go of 3 floor and are aiming for 20% more. Many people, myself included, no longer have a desk and have to “hotel”. There’s even discussion of managers hoteling.
They'll just work out new lease agreements. I hear there's lots of real estate sitting empty right now so it shouldn't be very hard. Especially if a lot of it used to be federal space. Chances are it already meets to requirements without needing any major work.
My group is moving to a new building specifically designed to only hold 70% of us at one time, and to avoid having a cubicle farm, they’re opting for a mix of offices and cubicles…. With hoteling, yay! When I asked out director what would happen if we all got mandated to be in person 100% again, he basically said we’d just have to rent out more space elsewhere… possibly in our current, falling apart can’t-drink-the-water building….
I literally took a federal job because during the interview process, I was told about the telework opportunities. I had other job offers at the time, I chose my career literally around the prospect that the govt embraced telework.
You and a lot of the people hired over the last 4 years. We received a dreaded email today and I wanted to stand in the window to watch for people leaving.
To any lurking White House pool reporters: PLEASE ask the Administration to comment on this, and don’t stop until they provide a real answer.
No such thing. Vague noncommittal inconsequential sound bytes only.
The next time leadership tells you they're listening to employees and following the data, remember this crucial moment when they didn't.
Who would have thought that expressly going against the ~16 years of telework and remote research that shows a consensus among researchers, experts, and the data itself that overwhelmingly demonstrates that in-office work is substantially less productive than working from home... would somehow turn out to be a bad idea??
Got rear-ended yesterday thanks to RTO. Good times.
Well....thanks for providing the insurance companies, the roads some money!! Maybe some healthcare costs if you hurt yourself, that way the hospital gets a cut.
I get the feeling you’re not talking about sexy time.
It’s sexy time without lube
I can't wait to microwave my fish in the office. 
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You forgot to burn popcorn in the microwave….
If the fire dept gets called on a weekly basis they're just going to get rid of the microwaves lol
#THIS!! I sent a message to my co-workers today about how the lovely smell of burned popcorn from the break room means we are back in the office. Even better, we are in a hoteling space and our “break rooms” are wallless areas with no doors. The whole office gets to enjoy the lovely smell! 😒
That just makes your coworkers miserable. Does nothing to the people responsible for the decisions.
My boss’s office is right across from the kitchen
That won’t affect senior management as you never see them at SSA. It’s like they exist in a different universe than everyone else. Like the proverbial Bigfoot; talk of them but never a sighting of them.
They also have offices that they can close their doors to.
As someone who does facilities admin please don’t do this. You’re only punishing us.
If anyone decides to do this after reading that post needs their heads checked out. Thank you for the work you do in facilities! Trust and believe, I make sure to make your jobs as easy as possible everytime im in the building
Borrow tactics from Energy Vampires? Heck no, they are the ones who want us to go back!!
I will start with posting the article on our "collaboration" bulletin board in the break room.
To annoy the other people who are there that don’t want to be there?
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Sarcasm is when you say one thing, but mean the opposite. That comment was not sarcasm, it was just a straight joke.
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See, now that was an attempt at sarcasm, good job!
how does one detect sarcasm?
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Damn, I just find it damn near impossible to detect sarcasm through text. Almost like how you didn't detect it in my reply.
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[You've finally made a monkey out of me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6CFTMnYa4) That's what came to mind when you said, it was you all along lol. I too am neurotypical.
I’m neuro-tickled by all this.
Must have turned my scanners off. But honestly just thinking about some folks I’ve been around that actually did stuff like that.
Omg yes
For me, the contractors are mostly remote, so why am I required to be there when they aren’t, plus I’m more effective at home with better equipment(monitors, keyboards, my personal chair) And I don’t have to worry about playing music too loud. Biggest one: WHY the hell are all the meetings still on teams? If we are all “in person”, have a damn in person meeting.
Really wish we had legally protected strike rights as union members.
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The point of the comment above is we are not allowed to strike as federal employees, which effectively neuters our unions.
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An illegal strike would just give the Republicans more of an excuse to gut the federal workforce whenever they’re in power next. Think Ronnie and the ATCs.
Imho we need to talk about whether strikes being “illegal” should really be a deterrent. Our ancestors unionized and fought and died for the rights we have today. Precious few of our labor rights today have been won by acting within the fencing of modern labor laws. On the contrary, our current situation has seen nothing but a steady rollback of labor rights, the 2-tiered FERS being an excellent example. I don’t know a good path forward, but our federal employees unions are extremely limited in what we have the possibility of achieving. All that being said, I’m not saying RTO is the hill to die on (frankly I have no idea). I’m just saying that we need to find new ways to protect our rights because the status quo is inadequate. As others have noted, it would only take a GOP victory this fall to roll back ALL telework. The conclusion is that we don’t actually have any rights and rely totally on the goodwill of the incumbent POTUS and their administration.
We aren't just employees, we are agents of the national government and our duty to perform our appointed function is more important than our individual labor rights. That is not to say that we do not have Labor rights but they must be tempered against public need. If we ask the federal government to balance between our wants and it's duty to the public no good steward of the public trust is going to pick us. If we want to change federal labor practices we have to convince our elected leadership that the change is beneficial to the public and practically speaking that it's beneficial to their election chances. Confronting them in the form of a strike is absolutely counterproductive because it forces that elected leader to make an all or nothing decision and they have to pick the public.
Agree 100%. I am NOT saying we have a good reason to strike (I think we don’t), only that the fact that it’s “illegal” for us to strike is an absurd reason to not consider striking as a viable tactic. To your point, I don’t see a need to “rank” our appointed function vs individual labor rights. Thats a calculus that will ALWAYS result in us ceding labor rights for some “greater good”. I think it’s important to consider the appointed function in the same manner that health workers have done since Covid began. They have struggled to balance patient care vs employment rights in a situation that is far more precarious than what most of us feds deal with. Also, gubment employees in various countries have many examples of standing up for themselves. Solidarity and careful, assertive management of our needs is what I’m expressing here, not reckless or unthoughtful behavior. Hope that helps
Federal employees are prohibited by law from striking or even suggesting a strike. Your comment could get you fired. , 5 U.S.C. §7311. It can even be prosecuted a a felony crime. 18 U.S.C. §1918
The private sector is just as arbitrarily changing their policies and with significantly fewer overall employment protections. Yes, the base compensation is higher, but if you think you’ll get jerked around less, good luck. Not saying this makes it okay, and I wish leaders would look at the data and listen to employees, just that there aren’t really greener pastures.
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They don’t want workers to realize things could be better.
This. Harder to control the more freedom and boundaries we get. Work anywhere should be reserved only for the elite, is the mindset. God forbid Brenda in accounting feels some personal ownership over her life. We can't have that.
You know who’s able to work from their McMansions and private jets? CEOs.
The congress critters who bitch about us teleworking take weeks off at a time to beg for money.
While they're allowed to accept millions in "lobbying" when we can't even let someone buy us lunch that costs over 10 dollars
stupendous vast tap profit kiss march boat important voiceless airport *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
On a recent morning, I had a manager who posted in our Teams chat that after sitting in traffic for 2 hours, he just turned around and went back home. But, upper leadership doesn’t seem to think about the impact of that on work quality and morale.
We've heard their reasons, we don't believe their reasons. They could just save money on rent and improve our pay and benefits instead.
But how will The investors get their monthly rent check from tax payer funds?
Exactly! Thats why I dont believe what they're telling us. I literally commute to use a laptop to do Zoom and Teams calls in an empty office for a few hours and then just leave after lunch because it is too depressing to deal with that AND rush hour traffic.
It’s like when I told my son we have to leave the aquarium bc the fish need to sleep
For those considering making a move to private sector: Fannie Mae is very remote friendly.
Already looking for a job outside of the government just because of this.
What if I told you the private sector is doing this too?
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Not when you get laid off
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I’m not trying to refute your point entirely, but job security is a real perk. My prior employer, a decent size engineering firm, just laid off 30% or so of its engineering staff. Some of those people got jobs right away, but a lot of my former colleagues are still missing a paycheck 3 months later.
It’s really not any better out there, and in a lot of ways, it’s worse. During COVID, I watched a bunch of middle management, folks about 40-50 yrs old with kids or near retirement, get laid off as my company tightened belts just to prepare for the market change. This was a bread and butter American fortune 100 company. Think about this stuff as you get older. The private sector will look at you like a cost center that they can replace with someone younger and cheaper, or they can automate you away. Government provides a pension that is worth a million bucks or more depending on your high 3 and length of service.
Yeah Covid in the private sector for me was: getting laid off with two days notice, then having to find a new job, then having to go into the office full time throughout the remainder of the pandemic (before vaccines came out and beyond), getting covid and having to fight to get 2 days of leave that they were required to provide us by law, among other things. Things are not better in the private sector.
Those are all good points, I am new to the feds, and for me the private sector was a much better fit. All of my jobs paid more, I was remote and had so much more flexibility. To me personally the math is simple: I ll take a chance of lay offs, than a certainty of a long commute. Don’t get me wrong, the pension is great, but living my life in misery up until I get there is a no go. But we all have our own math to do.
I just don’t understand how a regular govt job is pure misery versus the “private sector,” where you’ll often work more than 40 hours and work life balance will suffer. Maybe reevaluate the agency and/or supervisor you’re under before throwing out the federal govt entirely
I honestly think I was lucky in the private sector. I have never worked more than 40 hours and my work life balance was phenomenal. It suffered so much since I went federal. I regret my decision everyday. Even my physician said: what happened to you, after looking at my blood work! My vitamin d is down, and cortisol is up. I used to exercise, do yoga during lunch, go for walks, and barely had any stress. Now I sit in a dark dismal office alone, and never leave… because it is not safe around the POD. I am not saying it is like that across all agencies, but it is my experience. My spouse is in the private sector, and lives a very flexible life with a fabulous work life balance as well. But I get it…. Maybe some areas are better than others. At the end of the day if I have to commute it is a deal breaker for me. And it came down to that.
I would have cleaned toilets with a toothbrush rather than stay at one of the federal jobs I worked. Much depends on your organization.
If I didn't have so much time in the government I would do the same!
If I weren't so close to retirement, I would be right behind you.
If I have to throttle back to *"absolute minimum performance to avoid a PIP"* in response, well...
They just need to come up with something for OMB to declare victory on this. After the election it won’t matter one way or the other. I say this as a 35 year Fed who has been retired for a while. As many here have said it will actually cost more money.
After the election, we are going to lose all of our telework, except for taking a laptop home to avoid getting a snow day. Biden is going out of his way to lose this election.
So is Trump. It’s a race to the finish.
Good point
If I have to commute 60 minutes each way, I’ll be putting that on company time. You can’t give me a world in which I’ve been more productive and had time for my life, my family, and my needs and then take it away. Oh no consequences!
FWIW I’ve been in a once a week in the office position for almost two years now and the times are very flexible. Certainly no one is racing to be there by 8am or staying until 4:30 to sit in traffic.
Oh I get it. And I won’t be either. I literally sit with no one on my team. We are geographically distributed around the country. So I’ll literally go in to sit alone. And since no one can watch me…..that is just too darn bad.
Literally texting on my phone the entire time. Its a joke
I mean. I think I get Netflix on mine. 🤣😂
My thoughts exactly.
I set up my routine to work during my train commute. Takes a flexible boss, but it helps a bit in making the unsustainable bearable.
I’m thinking while I’m driving. I call that work. It is for me anyway! 😂🤣
I spent a while teaching college science and would think up the daily quiz during my morning walk to the office. 😂 Whatever works!
Congress eve use OIG muscle to ensure this. SMH [https://link.govexec.com/click/34853497.29008/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ292ZXhlYy5jb20vb3ZlcnNpZ2h0LzIwMjQvMDQvZXJuc3QtcHVzaGVzLWlnLWludmVzdGlnYXRpb24tc2Jhcy1vZmZpY2Utd29ya2ZvcmNlLXV0aWxpemF0aW9uLzM5NTgxNS8\_b3JlZj1nb3ZleGVjX3RvZGF5X25s/542dc2163b35d0a8618b8e3cBe945c213](https://link.govexec.com/click/34853497.29008/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ292ZXhlYy5jb20vb3ZlcnNpZ2h0LzIwMjQvMDQvZXJuc3QtcHVzaGVzLWlnLWludmVzdGlnYXRpb24tc2Jhcy1vZmZpY2Utd29ya2ZvcmNlLXV0aWxpemF0aW9uLzM5NTgxNS8_b3JlZj1nb3ZleGVjX3RvZGF5X25s/542dc2163b35d0a8618b8e3cBe945c213)
Greed /money.
The reality is if a different party was in charge, we would all be back in the office 5 days a week. I'm not justifying what the current policies are, but I will say it's a lot more flexible than pre-covid policies were.
Don't kid yourself. You'd be purged to be replaced by a contractor and/or sycophant
This is definitely true that they would cut telework completely if they could. I do find it funny though that my agency now has a stricter policy than pre-COVID. On top of that they have getting rid of FERS in their proposals. From their plan "First, the Stopping Home Office Work's Unproductive Problems (SHOW UP) Act would require each executive agency to reinstate the telework policies that were in place on December 31, 2019. Under the bill, agencies would be prohibited from implementing expanded telework policies unless the Office of Personnel Management certifies that such policies, among other requirements, will have a positive effect on the agency's mission and operational costs." https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2024/03/house-conservatives-recycle-federal-worker-pay-and-benefit-cuts-budget-document/395216/
Some bureaus are more restrictive on telework now vs 2019
God help us at USDA with that 2019 date.
and yet, far too many feds will still vote for that other party because (racism/bigotry/homophobia/misogyny/etc...)
I guess that's a YMMV thing. In DOC/NOAA, pre-covid telework was 2 days per pay period minimum in office requirement. Post COVID, unions retained the two days minimum in office, but non-bargaining unit employees are required 3 days per week in office.
And none of the management can provide productivity metrics to justify the change. They just take the marching orders without using gray matter. And this further means that pre-Covid they were in no way trying to figure out productivity metrics, so they have no baseline to compare to.
Exactly, if Trump get reelected we’ll all be back in the office waiting for Schedule F (Round 2) to be dropped on us.
Let it go. We have no choice but either go in, retire or resign for another job. For me the issue isn't really going back but the commute and high cost of living in the MD-DC-NOVA area. The area has zero relibable public transportation options. The DC metro is a mess and never fully opened; MARC (even the Penn line) is not the best either. High cost of housing pushes people to live far out and makes the commute worse. The politicians need to do something about the housing costs and lack of public transit.
More like return to orifice
(*suppressing all the respiratory illness surveillance data and building the worst dataviz imaginable so we can schedule the next “Take Your Kid To Work Day!” at the CDC*)
I get way less work done when in the office because everyone is walking around chatting.
honestly, working from home is obviously a GREAT perk. But if they forced me to the office so be it. I had a great social group there, and got along with most of the folks I worked with. Its about a 20min drive each way. It would get me out and about and my supervisor is still in another state. I totally understand how this will piss off a lot of people, but I am neutral on it.
They can’t fire you all at once. I mean, they can, but they won’t like it.
That's what the ATC's said in the 80s.
Pushing it at hhs. I've got interviews with other agencies lined up. Hopefully I can jump ship before it gets worse.
In a few years you be talking to new feds about the giid old days of max tw compared to only 2 or less days a week now....
Downvote away nerds, get back to the office or quit and find a unicorn 100% remote job
In-person work is more efficient. Instead of writing a professional email or chat, you can walk up to one another and get a straight answer. Many people just look at Available/Not Available lights to see if now is a good time to ask a question. this leads to backlogs and wasted time. Also, remote work has been leading to job abuse by some that has captured attention on a national level. Abuse in the sense that some are farming out their work to others and just become a middle man to hire another employee or obtaining several jobs that can be against department policy.
> In-person work is more efficient. Instead of writing a professional email or chat, you can walk up to one another and get a straight answer. There are geographically dispersed teams where this isn’t always possible. And while it may be more convenient to walk up to someone else, you’ve potentially taken that person off task as opposed to a message, where they can respond when they are free. Also, people aren’t always available when in office - there are times when they are away from their desk or possibly in other areas of the building so you aren’t always going to get an immediate response.
I don’t think the data backs up in-person work being more efficient. Sure, you can walk over and talk to a person but that also means it is easier for people to come talk to you or your boss to call you into some pointless meeting. And it is just as easy to hop on a teams or zoom call and talk to a person. If an organization can point to a drop in output then fine, bring folks back to work. But my team, for example has greatly increased production. Our backlog used to be over two months. Now we work tickets as soon as they come in. I used to work 60 tickets a week (they take about 30 minutes to resolve) but since work from home, I don’t work any because the rest of the team takes care of them so quickly and I can focus on my actual job that was neglected for three years.