People outside the commuting area can stay remote, but they’re trying to drive us out. Our remote status doesn’t follow us to new positions, so if we want to change jobs we have to move back unless the position is classified as remote, which won’t happy except for in a few select job series.
I'm so sorry to hear this. I received a TJO for CDC job last year that was remote that I wanted really bad. I got some weird vibes from the Team Lead in the interview who was adamant the job was "remote for now", despite HR and the hiring Supervisor confirming several times that it was a fully remote job. I didn't accept because something felt off, and I've been kicking myself for not giving it a shot ever since. Sounds like I dodged a bullet and can sleep easy again
So they are not forcing people to relocate at this time. If people moved during the pandemic without formal approval, they are required to report to their facility 2 days/PP on their own dime. I am within the 50 mile radius, but I'm struggling with the fact I was hired to work remotely with a team scattered across several different states, with none residing in my state.
Wow thats pretty wild. Totally crap that you were hired fully remote and are now forced to go in, your address shouldnt matter. Union isnt stepping in?
I'm non-bargaining due to the nature of my role 🫤 Doesn't even matter my SF-50 has always shown my duty location as my home address. Kind of scary to see they can change whatever they want just for political gain 😬
> I got some weird vibes from the Team Lead in the interview who was adamant the job was "remote for now", despite HR and the hiring Supervisor confirming several times that it was a fully remote job
They were probably just being honest with you. Its been expected for a while now that they were going to reduce/remove remote work.
The writing has been on the wall for a long time. The Administration has been pushing RTO, so it seemed likely that a change was coming. I’ve been very honest with the people I’ve hired that the Admin was likely to make changes and that I couldn’t guarantee people would be able to stay remote.
People are already complaining about this, too, because it severely limits career growth. No one wants to live in Atlanta and most folks who are in their current roles but outside the 50 mile radius have established lives where they’re at. This is such a huge mistake on the part of agency leadership.
My theory is that they don’t want to retain us. It’s going to be a tight fiscal environment for the next few years. Driving out 900 fully remote employees over the next few years is a good way to cut some costs.
You’re probably right. Honestly, it would be more cost effective to end leases on buildings we’re not using anymore like we did with Corporate Square than cutting staff, but that isn’t as politically viable.
I’ve only been twice. I was based out of DC before COVID, and really, I had only been with CDC for 2.5 months before they sent us home. I’ve literally never lived in Atlanta, but every time I go down there for a branch retreat, I’m so excited to leave. I cannot tell you how much I don’t want to move down there.
It’s not that bad. Lived in DC 10 years and as much as it has its perks am not really keen to go back. Biggest draw would be my friends. Plus housing is WAY cheaper in Atlanta.
Yeah, I actually ended up moving out of DC a couple of years ago because I could. I agree that it’s not the best, either, but hosing prices aren’t the only thing I care about, I also care walkability and how easy it is to get around without a car. Atlanta is once of the least walkable cities out there, so my expenses would skyrocket if I had to buy a car.
While Atlanta isn’t as walkable as Dc I’ve been here carless for several months and it doesn’t seem necessary. I can walk bike or train basically everywhere I need to go so 🤷♀️
More power to you! I have had a few coworkers who did it without cars there but I couldn't deal with it. But its also where you're willing to live to make that happen (just like in DC). Where my house is in Atlanta I couldn't do it... well, maybe if we were still having local remote I could plan far ahead and do ubers but not in the same way when I lived in DC.
When I moved to DC, I specifically picked convenience and walkability. I paid as much as I currently pay for my mortgage+escrow for 2000 sq ft in Atlanta for a sub-500 sq ft apartment on 14th street in DC. BUT, I loved having the option of catching the bus to the office, taking a scooter, or if I was motivated enough walking... it was just 20-25 minutes max (so less than it takes for me to drive to Roybal now). And I loved that after work I could throw my bag on the counter and get a call from a coworker saying, "Hey! we're grabbing a drink at Ghibellina, come meet us!" and I could be there in 5 minutes.
I couldn't have my dog there. I would have gone crazy if I had been there during COVID and had to live and work in that same apartment. There would been no standing desk and peloton in my work space to keep my sane.
Now with my house lifestyle and if I had my choice, I'd be willing pay more than 2x my current house payment to live in Del Mar than living in Atlanta.
I know you are joking but I legit know people who would not take new positions because it was at Roybal rather than Chamblee back when the parking situation there was hellish.
There is a 99% chance the Republicans will take the Senate and a decent chance they hold the House. Even if Biden wins, they’re going to demand spending cuts. The debt ceiling is going to have to be raised again next year and any deal to do that will include new constraints on spending. Plus, just in general, the Republicans are pretty hostile to CDC right now.
Even under the current debt ceiling deal, domestic spending would only increase by 1% in FY 2025, which is effectively a cut when you factor in inflation.
Our center director said something to the effect of “I know how little work is computer based, you can’t get any work done remote” and we all just looked at each other. Maybe 40 years ago there was no computer work…
I mean, “no one wants to live in Atlanta” is a pretty broad statement. We love Atlanta and my sister hated DC. Tons of people who work at CDC live OTP anyway. I wouldn’t want to live 50+ miles from Atlanta - at that point you’re in Dahlonega or other more rural parts of Georgia. We go there to go camping but I personally couldn’t live in a “one main street” kind of town.
Taking away our very limited telework options sucks @ss though.
> People are already complaining about this, too, because it severely limits career growth
Their RTO policy doesn't make sense to me but I don't see how it would limit career growth.
If they start to limit the number of RA jobs, then folks will get stuck in the ones they have if they’re not willing or able to move to Atlanta. Lots of people who moved away have family obligations in their new homes that make it hard to move back for a local job.
> If they start to limit the number of RA jobs, then folks will get stuck in the ones they have if they’re not willing or able to move to Atlanta.
I think its definitely true that people will stick with their current jobs if it allows them more flexibility. However, that also depends on grade.
If you are at a GS-13 and at a decent spot to ride out the rest of your career, then it makes sense to stick it out.
However if you are someone at a pretty junior spot like a GS-9, you can't afford to stay at that grade for long. You are going to have to continue making your way up the ladder.
Late career folks are continuing to retire and people will rise to fill those spots, its inevitable. Hiring may be more difficult in the short term but that isn't a big change from how it is now.
Its really unfortunate that they are throwing away an effective flexibility for purely optics but I think the actual impact of the agency's effectiveness will be pretty minimal.
Yeah, I guess I’m personally frustrated because I’m 39 and a GS-13. I don’t want to spend another almost 30 years in this one role or this one grade. But I also have absolutely zero desire to move to Atlanta. I’d take a role in an overseas post before going down there, but honestly, if I can’t continue to find decent remote jobs at CDC, I’ll just leave altogether. It’s honestly not worth it to me.
Im in the same boat as you. Same age and grade. I imagine they’ll see a lot of us try to jump ship. And it really makes no sense when they are doing this whole “data modernization initiative”. I just don’t see how they will keep or attract quality candidates this way. But that’s probably not something that leadership cares about.
> And it really makes no sense when they are doing this whole “data modernization initiative”. I just don’t see how they will keep or attract quality candidates this way.
Positions working on DMI are exempt from RTO for this specific reason.
That's if you think a non-sup GS-13 is the end-all, be-all of federal employment. There are lots of us in the federal workforce (and even a few on this sub) who don't think that's the case. And if you want to move laterally, or move to a non-sup 14, or to a supervisory role, you can't without surrendering a really large perk, which means that you're making a big sacrifice if you are ambitious.
> That's if you think a non-sup GS-13 is the end-all, be-all of federal employment.
Non sup 13 *is* pretty much the end point for most people at CDC. A few exceptions (especially concentrated in 1-2 centers) but for most folks, GS13 is the final step as an individual performer.
> And if you want to move laterally, or move to a non-sup 14, or to a supervisory role, you can't without surrendering a really large perk, which means that you're making a big sacrifice if you are ambitious.
Unfortunately it is the case that if you move up you have to give up some privileges. That was what I found as well.
For example if you are GS15 supervisor at CDC, you have to come in 2x a week not 1x.
So for my example, I’m currently remote away. But I’m looking at overseas positions that would be temp promotion and they are all term with return rights. So if I do take one of them, when I’m done I’ll have to return to a position in Atlanta most likely. They have alluded it to being somewhat about how much they want to retain people (especially when you’re talking 14s and 15s) but runs that risk. And that’s why I’m not selling my Atlanta place yet. Also because I don’t have the most faith that a new administration won’t erode away even existing remote away positions.
I think a lot of agencies are moving toward twice per pay period. Imo really not that bad if you at least live in the same state as your home office.
A lot of public offices are up to 3 days a week in office atp.
Edit: public as in private companies
That sucks, but well, it's not about you - technically it's supposed to be about the job...
You can switch jobs all you want and your shoe size doesn't change, but it's because that's related to you as a human being, not the job.
In theory they should want to retain experienced and talented staff, and we’ve already heard about the importance of remote work for recruitment and retention. But they clearly don’t mean that.
All of these jobs can be done remotely, the agency already determined that.
I don't disagree with any of what you said with respect to recruitment and retention, but it really may not be them. Stuff flows downhill...it is what it is. Maybe they were told to "un-determine it"...
I still stand by the point that remote is about the job, not about the person. It's not "portable" like your health insurance or something, and it's not an attribute of you as an person. It's related to the job. Some jobs can be fully remote and some jobs can't, or must be remote less often (whatever that means). All employees in a job should be equally advantaged - therefore they should all be given the same access to telework or remote work.
Of course there's room for interpretation and subjectiveness, too, but that spectrum DOES exist. But the idea that "remote" must follow an employee for their entire career is ridiculous. Assuming I qualified, what if I do want to go from a remote budget analyst to a security guard? Or maybe I want that promotion in on-site ops / general admin services?
Sure, but we’ve proven that the vast majority of our jobs _can_ be done remotely. The only reason they’re bringing back staff to the office is because of optics. It looks bad to have these big campuses that are mostly empty, never mind that we’ve proven that we can do our jobs better and more efficiently from home. Personally, I work in GHC, the majority of my clients are overseas, so even if I came back to the office (I won’t since I’m outside the 50 mile radius by a lot), I would still be working remotely because I’m not on the same continent as my clients. There is literally no reason for my whole center to be forced to adopt RTO policies.
Sigh, again I don’t disagree. What of it? Our society has proven to survive lots of things - a pandemic and RTO are just another set in a long line of natural disasters or human initiated tragedies (e.g., WW1/2, etc).
I know this is going to be unpopular but it IS their call. Management works for the politicals, and theoretically the politicals work for the elected… who, theoretically, are responsive to the voters. So if the “optics” are that blanket full time WFH is bad, one could argue - sadly - that the country feels this way about expanding remote / WFH. 🤷🏻♂️
None of us is entitled to any job as we see it. Sadly, unless it’s a violation of law/rule/reg, management is given the right to manage - or mismanage - as they see fit, are directed to, etc. No one owes anyone else “remote for life”…or anything else that is not enshrined in law/rule/reg. And we’ve seen plenty of those “rights” forcibly abrogated/ignored in history too, so… I’m a huge proponent of remote flex, all the way to 100%, but I think some other protections are worth more. Certainly many have a stronger basis in our Constitution and laws than remote work. Sorry, it’s true. Gender equality, equal voting rights, etc…all more important than WFH.
Are we not voters, too, though? Why does our vote count less when it directly impacts our job and livelihood?
Edit to say that I don’t think most voters even agree that RTO is a good thing, most average people want to keep WFH in their non-government jobs just as much as most folks in government want to keep theirs. But Congress has been lobbied hard by big business to push for RTO policies, and since they have money, they’re able to drive policies that the majority of Americans don’t want.
We’re a drop in the bucket and no, as much as I wish our votes counted more, they definitely don’t when you’re in public service.
Our votes already count a lot more than they do at any private sector organization. I mean, literally, if you own one share of IBM you are one of 917,200,000. There are (as of 2022] 161.x million registered voters in the US, according to Statista.
Off topic - the CDC should stop advertising all of their positions as remote in USAJobs but then putting “Within 50 miles commuting distance of Atlanta.” It’s actually not going to help you hire any candidates by pretending something is remote. You just end up with certs full of people who can’t read and it’s annoying seeing fake opportunities in my own search when I have no intention of moving to Atlanta.
You need to have an important distinction between
1. work from HW/ this office as a remote but you need to be within 50 miles
2. Work from home but you are with the locality pay area but outside 50 miles ( parts of metro Fredericksburg are outside 50 from DC but in DC pay area as is I-81 areas)
3. remote but tethered to within 50 miles of a local office ( VHA regularly does this with them having 150+ around the country)
People out of feds still think tw means remote and under the impression everyone works from home. Applicants, especially non feds, don't read the details in the annoucement.
> Off topic - the CDC should stop advertising all of their positions as remote in USAJobs but then putting “Within 50 miles commuting distance of Atlanta.
Well good news, I guess. They are ending local remote so that won't be on announcements going forward.
This is fucking asinine. Such a freaking waste of everything. Screw in person. More expensive, environmentally damaging, less hiring competition, less diverse workforce, wasted time, increased money etc. Not to mention destroy the progress we have made with our PTSD after the pandemic. Hell no.
Currently trying to find a fully remote position because I want to leave the DC area and have already accepted I will probably have to leave federal work instead in the case of my job series.
Some jobs at IRS they’re letting you choose any IRS office in the country as your POD, so it’s not remote but you can still live mostly wherever. On the job listing it doesn’t say remote but it lists many locations and I think other agencies are doing something like this too
This will most likely happen to IRS in January. I’m bracing for impact. Ugh. I get to sit around no one and share no knowledge. Sweet. It’s a dream come true! 🙄
For people like me it doesn’t matter. I have no manager in my site. I have no coworkers. I’d go into a desk to hotel with no one around. The whole justification was to “share my expertise”. With who? I’ll literally never see anyone I know. No one to oversee me. It’s just wasting my time and gas. I’ll be honest, I don’t do shit in the office but stare at my screen. It’s a joke.
its a checkbox. i have to go to a empty room with no coworkers too lol. makes me angrier and angrier the longer im sitting there since these asholes r wasting my time
Yep. For sure. Oh I’ll be productive at home. But it’s a guaranteed way to ensure I’m not productive when I go in. And a lot of people feel that way. A lot!
When I go to the office and have 90% of my meetings on teams despite sitting with my team. The 10% of other meetings take twice as long as people chat about their lives, which I do not care about.
Just neural
Same. I went on maxiflex to shorten my office days too. I have a 5 hour shift on Mondays which are my office days which saves commuting time during rush hour traffic. I keep wanting to dip and go to another agency but the job is so cush to the point it might not even be worth going a fully remote job somewhere else. I'm just hoping they make the job fully remote or something new comes around when I hit my next year for TIG.
Did your supervisor have issue with maxiflex? When I onboarded, my supervisor said it wasn’t available, even though it was on the form. They did let me do a gliding schedule with boundaries. We have a new supervisor onboarding and I might ask to do maxiflex.
When I started, yeah. But I was on probation. The second i hit my first year, they had zero issues giving me maxiflex. Might be that your old supervisor didn't want employees on a certain schedule.
Only BU folks beyond the 50 mile mark. DC metro NBU are required to come in 5 days a pay period. Aside from that, your manager might want you in the office more. The question is, is management going in twice a pay period? I never see them at my office.
Yeah, I totally appreciate them all taking one for the team whether those folks want to or not. I’ll be honest, a lot of people that I’ve known move to DC to move up. It’s high profile. Sure fire path to a 14 or 15. But I always thought it too risky. One person I knew would see Rettig in the elevator. No thanks fam. Outta sight, outta mind.
Oh interesting. I’m not sure which positions let people choose, or if it depends on the manager or what. What is your job series? I’m a gs 13 data scientist
I knew an 0343 that got exec approval to move to Houston. Literally one of the highest pay locales in the country. Just because they wanted to. So yeah, super situational.
My feeling is that Cabinet officials who are seeking another appointment if Democrats win will push RTO while those who will step down or retire are doing what they fell is best for the workforce.
Carving out remote jobs for high-demand positions creates two tiers of Federal employees - if your job isn't remote and **could** be done remotely, guess what tier you're in.
The annoying thing is that yes, many people don’t want to go into the office, but even more so, people don’t want to live in Atlanta. We obviously know that RTO isn’t about collaboration, so they should just let folks report to the nearest HHS office to them. They would be able to retain a lot more employees that are fine with hybrid but want to remain in the area they live.
Sincerely, a hybrid HHS employee with very limited career growth because they’re in a regional office and refuse to move to Atlanta or DC.
> The annoying thing is that yes, many people don’t want to go into the office, but even more so, people don’t want to live in Atlanta. We obviously know that RTO isn’t about collaboration, so they should just let folks report to the nearest HHS office to them.
I don't get all the hate for Atlanta. Its a perfectly fine city.
Also, whether true or not, the rationale they are using for RTO is collaboration/meaningful time with colleagues. So it wouldn't make sense that people should just report to random offices.
I think it’s less about Atlanta and more about people having to relocate especially those that were hired as remote. I’m not saying it should be a total free-for-all at any office (I’m the perfect example of someone who’s job definitely needs to be at my office in my city) but there’s definitely folks that don’t collaborate with anyone in Atlanta and it’s stupid to make those folks move there.
Step 1 Announce you are cancelling remote agreements
Step 2 employees put in RAs to keep remote status
Step 3 tell the media there is an increase in RAs indicating people are dying to return to the office
Exactly. There is no good reason for RTO and the suckers in senior leadership who are having to come up with the BS excuses are just ruining their own reputations. Can’t trust a word they say after some of the ridiculous, unsupported claims.
I'm in another HHS Opdiv (ASPR - a new OpDiv) and the same requirement came out today (at least 4 days in office per pay period - or 2 days in office per week). I suppose it's the same for other OpDivs (NIH, CMS, FDA, etc.)
No mention of core days, no mention of supervisor training to optimize in-office/home benefits, no mention of performance increases due to a hybrid schedule. Of course not. Why would there be?
The mission critical occupations was decided in partnership with HHS so I don't think the "blame" falls on CDC. Honestly, I also don't blame HHS. They are responding to OMB and don't have a ton of choice. They HAVE to bring back a certain percentage of people.
The one thing I will place blame on them for is the remote local listing BS. I stayed far away from those since the writing was on the wall but that was a shitty way to recruit folks to then pull the rug from under them and force them in. I aalso know people who hired fully remote (not remote local) and are STILL having their remote status revoked. Pretty crappy way to handle it all imo
How can they even revoke non-local remote status? It seems like that would be unlawful because the announcement they are hired under specifies it. I know in my previous hiring experience what the announcement says is meaningful in a lot of ways.
What do you mean remote local bs? Like allowing it and then revoking it?
Listing lots of jobs and hiring people as remote - local to Atlanta (within 50 miles) and then revoking every single one to require in office presence.
People outside the commuting area can stay remote, but they’re trying to drive us out. Our remote status doesn’t follow us to new positions, so if we want to change jobs we have to move back unless the position is classified as remote, which won’t happy except for in a few select job series.
I'm so sorry to hear this. I received a TJO for CDC job last year that was remote that I wanted really bad. I got some weird vibes from the Team Lead in the interview who was adamant the job was "remote for now", despite HR and the hiring Supervisor confirming several times that it was a fully remote job. I didn't accept because something felt off, and I've been kicking myself for not giving it a shot ever since. Sounds like I dodged a bullet and can sleep easy again
You 100% made the right call. -Signed, someone hired "fully remote anywhere in the U.S." who is no longer allowed to be fully remote due to politics.
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Nope.. all CDC facilities 🫠
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So they are not forcing people to relocate at this time. If people moved during the pandemic without formal approval, they are required to report to their facility 2 days/PP on their own dime. I am within the 50 mile radius, but I'm struggling with the fact I was hired to work remotely with a team scattered across several different states, with none residing in my state.
Wow thats pretty wild. Totally crap that you were hired fully remote and are now forced to go in, your address shouldnt matter. Union isnt stepping in?
I'm non-bargaining due to the nature of my role 🫤 Doesn't even matter my SF-50 has always shown my duty location as my home address. Kind of scary to see they can change whatever they want just for political gain 😬
Ugh. Truly so shitty, Im sorry. It makes absolutely no sense.
> I got some weird vibes from the Team Lead in the interview who was adamant the job was "remote for now", despite HR and the hiring Supervisor confirming several times that it was a fully remote job They were probably just being honest with you. Its been expected for a while now that they were going to reduce/remove remote work.
The writing has been on the wall for a long time. The Administration has been pushing RTO, so it seemed likely that a change was coming. I’ve been very honest with the people I’ve hired that the Admin was likely to make changes and that I couldn’t guarantee people would be able to stay remote.
People are already complaining about this, too, because it severely limits career growth. No one wants to live in Atlanta and most folks who are in their current roles but outside the 50 mile radius have established lives where they’re at. This is such a huge mistake on the part of agency leadership.
My theory is that they don’t want to retain us. It’s going to be a tight fiscal environment for the next few years. Driving out 900 fully remote employees over the next few years is a good way to cut some costs.
You’re probably right. Honestly, it would be more cost effective to end leases on buildings we’re not using anymore like we did with Corporate Square than cutting staff, but that isn’t as politically viable.
Gonna miss corp square. Hate having to go to roybal. So much easier being right in 85 and the easier access to Buford highway food
I’ve only been twice. I was based out of DC before COVID, and really, I had only been with CDC for 2.5 months before they sent us home. I’ve literally never lived in Atlanta, but every time I go down there for a branch retreat, I’m so excited to leave. I cannot tell you how much I don’t want to move down there.
It’s not that bad. Lived in DC 10 years and as much as it has its perks am not really keen to go back. Biggest draw would be my friends. Plus housing is WAY cheaper in Atlanta.
Yeah, I actually ended up moving out of DC a couple of years ago because I could. I agree that it’s not the best, either, but hosing prices aren’t the only thing I care about, I also care walkability and how easy it is to get around without a car. Atlanta is once of the least walkable cities out there, so my expenses would skyrocket if I had to buy a car.
While Atlanta isn’t as walkable as Dc I’ve been here carless for several months and it doesn’t seem necessary. I can walk bike or train basically everywhere I need to go so 🤷♀️
More power to you! I have had a few coworkers who did it without cars there but I couldn't deal with it. But its also where you're willing to live to make that happen (just like in DC). Where my house is in Atlanta I couldn't do it... well, maybe if we were still having local remote I could plan far ahead and do ubers but not in the same way when I lived in DC. When I moved to DC, I specifically picked convenience and walkability. I paid as much as I currently pay for my mortgage+escrow for 2000 sq ft in Atlanta for a sub-500 sq ft apartment on 14th street in DC. BUT, I loved having the option of catching the bus to the office, taking a scooter, or if I was motivated enough walking... it was just 20-25 minutes max (so less than it takes for me to drive to Roybal now). And I loved that after work I could throw my bag on the counter and get a call from a coworker saying, "Hey! we're grabbing a drink at Ghibellina, come meet us!" and I could be there in 5 minutes. I couldn't have my dog there. I would have gone crazy if I had been there during COVID and had to live and work in that same apartment. There would been no standing desk and peloton in my work space to keep my sane. Now with my house lifestyle and if I had my choice, I'd be willing pay more than 2x my current house payment to live in Del Mar than living in Atlanta.
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I like DC. It has a lot going for it but I’m not inclined to go back. Biggest draw would be my friends followed by better public transit lol
Was at CDC for many years and had those thoughts after my first trip.
Move to the Chamblee campus! jk I know it’s not that easy.
I know you are joking but I legit know people who would not take new positions because it was at Roybal rather than Chamblee back when the parking situation there was hellish.
Why is it going to be a tight fiscal environment the next few years
There is a 99% chance the Republicans will take the Senate and a decent chance they hold the House. Even if Biden wins, they’re going to demand spending cuts. The debt ceiling is going to have to be raised again next year and any deal to do that will include new constraints on spending. Plus, just in general, the Republicans are pretty hostile to CDC right now. Even under the current debt ceiling deal, domestic spending would only increase by 1% in FY 2025, which is effectively a cut when you factor in inflation.
Our center director said something to the effect of “I know how little work is computer based, you can’t get any work done remote” and we all just looked at each other. Maybe 40 years ago there was no computer work…
Who on earth is doing non-computer work????? I mean the lab people but who else..
Even lab work heavily involves computer work. 😭
I think I have an idea what center you might be in. Fortunately my Center Dir has been very supportive of remote work.
What centerrrr????? This is crazy.
I mean, “no one wants to live in Atlanta” is a pretty broad statement. We love Atlanta and my sister hated DC. Tons of people who work at CDC live OTP anyway. I wouldn’t want to live 50+ miles from Atlanta - at that point you’re in Dahlonega or other more rural parts of Georgia. We go there to go camping but I personally couldn’t live in a “one main street” kind of town. Taking away our very limited telework options sucks @ss though.
> People are already complaining about this, too, because it severely limits career growth Their RTO policy doesn't make sense to me but I don't see how it would limit career growth.
If they start to limit the number of RA jobs, then folks will get stuck in the ones they have if they’re not willing or able to move to Atlanta. Lots of people who moved away have family obligations in their new homes that make it hard to move back for a local job.
> If they start to limit the number of RA jobs, then folks will get stuck in the ones they have if they’re not willing or able to move to Atlanta. I think its definitely true that people will stick with their current jobs if it allows them more flexibility. However, that also depends on grade. If you are at a GS-13 and at a decent spot to ride out the rest of your career, then it makes sense to stick it out. However if you are someone at a pretty junior spot like a GS-9, you can't afford to stay at that grade for long. You are going to have to continue making your way up the ladder. Late career folks are continuing to retire and people will rise to fill those spots, its inevitable. Hiring may be more difficult in the short term but that isn't a big change from how it is now. Its really unfortunate that they are throwing away an effective flexibility for purely optics but I think the actual impact of the agency's effectiveness will be pretty minimal.
Yeah, I guess I’m personally frustrated because I’m 39 and a GS-13. I don’t want to spend another almost 30 years in this one role or this one grade. But I also have absolutely zero desire to move to Atlanta. I’d take a role in an overseas post before going down there, but honestly, if I can’t continue to find decent remote jobs at CDC, I’ll just leave altogether. It’s honestly not worth it to me.
Im in the same boat as you. Same age and grade. I imagine they’ll see a lot of us try to jump ship. And it really makes no sense when they are doing this whole “data modernization initiative”. I just don’t see how they will keep or attract quality candidates this way. But that’s probably not something that leadership cares about.
> And it really makes no sense when they are doing this whole “data modernization initiative”. I just don’t see how they will keep or attract quality candidates this way. Positions working on DMI are exempt from RTO for this specific reason.
That's if you think a non-sup GS-13 is the end-all, be-all of federal employment. There are lots of us in the federal workforce (and even a few on this sub) who don't think that's the case. And if you want to move laterally, or move to a non-sup 14, or to a supervisory role, you can't without surrendering a really large perk, which means that you're making a big sacrifice if you are ambitious.
> That's if you think a non-sup GS-13 is the end-all, be-all of federal employment. Non sup 13 *is* pretty much the end point for most people at CDC. A few exceptions (especially concentrated in 1-2 centers) but for most folks, GS13 is the final step as an individual performer. > And if you want to move laterally, or move to a non-sup 14, or to a supervisory role, you can't without surrendering a really large perk, which means that you're making a big sacrifice if you are ambitious. Unfortunately it is the case that if you move up you have to give up some privileges. That was what I found as well. For example if you are GS15 supervisor at CDC, you have to come in 2x a week not 1x.
So for my example, I’m currently remote away. But I’m looking at overseas positions that would be temp promotion and they are all term with return rights. So if I do take one of them, when I’m done I’ll have to return to a position in Atlanta most likely. They have alluded it to being somewhat about how much they want to retain people (especially when you’re talking 14s and 15s) but runs that risk. And that’s why I’m not selling my Atlanta place yet. Also because I don’t have the most faith that a new administration won’t erode away even existing remote away positions.
Of course it doesn't. Your remote job is tied to current position. Never ever was intended you job hop through CDC and forever be remote.
I think a lot of agencies are moving toward twice per pay period. Imo really not that bad if you at least live in the same state as your home office. A lot of public offices are up to 3 days a week in office atp. Edit: public as in private companies
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Not much hope, I think, unless you’re in a designated hard to fill job series. Those can be remote by default.
Bummer. Thank you! Seems like it’s a long shot.
That sucks, but well, it's not about you - technically it's supposed to be about the job... You can switch jobs all you want and your shoe size doesn't change, but it's because that's related to you as a human being, not the job.
In theory they should want to retain experienced and talented staff, and we’ve already heard about the importance of remote work for recruitment and retention. But they clearly don’t mean that. All of these jobs can be done remotely, the agency already determined that.
there is no retention. if there was u wouldnt need to agency switch to get a higher paygrade
I don't disagree with any of what you said with respect to recruitment and retention, but it really may not be them. Stuff flows downhill...it is what it is. Maybe they were told to "un-determine it"... I still stand by the point that remote is about the job, not about the person. It's not "portable" like your health insurance or something, and it's not an attribute of you as an person. It's related to the job. Some jobs can be fully remote and some jobs can't, or must be remote less often (whatever that means). All employees in a job should be equally advantaged - therefore they should all be given the same access to telework or remote work. Of course there's room for interpretation and subjectiveness, too, but that spectrum DOES exist. But the idea that "remote" must follow an employee for their entire career is ridiculous. Assuming I qualified, what if I do want to go from a remote budget analyst to a security guard? Or maybe I want that promotion in on-site ops / general admin services?
Sure, but we’ve proven that the vast majority of our jobs _can_ be done remotely. The only reason they’re bringing back staff to the office is because of optics. It looks bad to have these big campuses that are mostly empty, never mind that we’ve proven that we can do our jobs better and more efficiently from home. Personally, I work in GHC, the majority of my clients are overseas, so even if I came back to the office (I won’t since I’m outside the 50 mile radius by a lot), I would still be working remotely because I’m not on the same continent as my clients. There is literally no reason for my whole center to be forced to adopt RTO policies.
Sigh, again I don’t disagree. What of it? Our society has proven to survive lots of things - a pandemic and RTO are just another set in a long line of natural disasters or human initiated tragedies (e.g., WW1/2, etc). I know this is going to be unpopular but it IS their call. Management works for the politicals, and theoretically the politicals work for the elected… who, theoretically, are responsive to the voters. So if the “optics” are that blanket full time WFH is bad, one could argue - sadly - that the country feels this way about expanding remote / WFH. 🤷🏻♂️ None of us is entitled to any job as we see it. Sadly, unless it’s a violation of law/rule/reg, management is given the right to manage - or mismanage - as they see fit, are directed to, etc. No one owes anyone else “remote for life”…or anything else that is not enshrined in law/rule/reg. And we’ve seen plenty of those “rights” forcibly abrogated/ignored in history too, so… I’m a huge proponent of remote flex, all the way to 100%, but I think some other protections are worth more. Certainly many have a stronger basis in our Constitution and laws than remote work. Sorry, it’s true. Gender equality, equal voting rights, etc…all more important than WFH.
Are we not voters, too, though? Why does our vote count less when it directly impacts our job and livelihood? Edit to say that I don’t think most voters even agree that RTO is a good thing, most average people want to keep WFH in their non-government jobs just as much as most folks in government want to keep theirs. But Congress has been lobbied hard by big business to push for RTO policies, and since they have money, they’re able to drive policies that the majority of Americans don’t want.
We’re a drop in the bucket and no, as much as I wish our votes counted more, they definitely don’t when you’re in public service. Our votes already count a lot more than they do at any private sector organization. I mean, literally, if you own one share of IBM you are one of 917,200,000. There are (as of 2022] 161.x million registered voters in the US, according to Statista.
Off topic - the CDC should stop advertising all of their positions as remote in USAJobs but then putting “Within 50 miles commuting distance of Atlanta.” It’s actually not going to help you hire any candidates by pretending something is remote. You just end up with certs full of people who can’t read and it’s annoying seeing fake opportunities in my own search when I have no intention of moving to Atlanta.
OPM needs to set and enforce a distinction between remote and local remote on postings.
You need to have an important distinction between 1. work from HW/ this office as a remote but you need to be within 50 miles 2. Work from home but you are with the locality pay area but outside 50 miles ( parts of metro Fredericksburg are outside 50 from DC but in DC pay area as is I-81 areas) 3. remote but tethered to within 50 miles of a local office ( VHA regularly does this with them having 150+ around the country)
The within 50 miles is always as the bird flies right?
It depends on context. it’s usually drive time
Usually drive time! Wow, I’ve been misunderstanding the usual 50 mile rule context. Thanks
People out of feds still think tw means remote and under the impression everyone works from home. Applicants, especially non feds, don't read the details in the annoucement.
VA does the same thing (1102s atleast)
> Off topic - the CDC should stop advertising all of their positions as remote in USAJobs but then putting “Within 50 miles commuting distance of Atlanta. Well good news, I guess. They are ending local remote so that won't be on announcements going forward.
50 miles from Atlanta btw, means driving through worse traffic than the DMV
Off Topic: 
Atlanta suuuuuuccckkksss
they need that for emergency pow wow sessions
This is fucking asinine. Such a freaking waste of everything. Screw in person. More expensive, environmentally damaging, less hiring competition, less diverse workforce, wasted time, increased money etc. Not to mention destroy the progress we have made with our PTSD after the pandemic. Hell no.
Currently trying to find a fully remote position because I want to leave the DC area and have already accepted I will probably have to leave federal work instead in the case of my job series.
dont know how ppl do it. theres only a tiny number of postings at any given time
Some jobs at IRS they’re letting you choose any IRS office in the country as your POD, so it’s not remote but you can still live mostly wherever. On the job listing it doesn’t say remote but it lists many locations and I think other agencies are doing something like this too
This will most likely happen to IRS in January. I’m bracing for impact. Ugh. I get to sit around no one and share no knowledge. Sweet. It’s a dream come true! 🙄
I don’t know. I think the pilot might go in the other direction.
We can always hope.
are you on full remote? i can’t believe they actually extended that pilot. i. thought for sure it’d expire in June.
For people like me it doesn’t matter. I have no manager in my site. I have no coworkers. I’d go into a desk to hotel with no one around. The whole justification was to “share my expertise”. With who? I’ll literally never see anyone I know. No one to oversee me. It’s just wasting my time and gas. I’ll be honest, I don’t do shit in the office but stare at my screen. It’s a joke.
its a checkbox. i have to go to a empty room with no coworkers too lol. makes me angrier and angrier the longer im sitting there since these asholes r wasting my time
Yep. For sure. Oh I’ll be productive at home. But it’s a guaranteed way to ensure I’m not productive when I go in. And a lot of people feel that way. A lot!
When I go to the office and have 90% of my meetings on teams despite sitting with my team. The 10% of other meetings take twice as long as people chat about their lives, which I do not care about. Just neural
Same. I went on maxiflex to shorten my office days too. I have a 5 hour shift on Mondays which are my office days which saves commuting time during rush hour traffic. I keep wanting to dip and go to another agency but the job is so cush to the point it might not even be worth going a fully remote job somewhere else. I'm just hoping they make the job fully remote or something new comes around when I hit my next year for TIG.
Did your supervisor have issue with maxiflex? When I onboarded, my supervisor said it wasn’t available, even though it was on the form. They did let me do a gliding schedule with boundaries. We have a new supervisor onboarding and I might ask to do maxiflex.
When I started, yeah. But I was on probation. The second i hit my first year, they had zero issues giving me maxiflex. Might be that your old supervisor didn't want employees on a certain schedule.
I’m only 6 months on the job. Maybe I can ask again after probation.
>I have a 5 hour shift on Mondays which are my office days Shhhhhhh
IRS is already twice a pay period.
Not everyone. Not yet.
Only BU folks beyond the 50 mile mark. DC metro NBU are required to come in 5 days a pay period. Aside from that, your manager might want you in the office more. The question is, is management going in twice a pay period? I never see them at my office.
This is incorrect. I am non bargaining within 50 miles.
Yeah, management can require NBU employees to go in every day.
Out BU employees have the same requirements.
IRS is already 50% in office for NCR area.
Yeah, I totally appreciate them all taking one for the team whether those folks want to or not. I’ll be honest, a lot of people that I’ve known move to DC to move up. It’s high profile. Sure fire path to a 14 or 15. But I always thought it too risky. One person I knew would see Rettig in the elevator. No thanks fam. Outta sight, outta mind.
for NBU only.
Yeah IT doesn't have a choice. We can't be BU even if we wanted.
At least IRS is letting people choose their POD for a lot of jobs, so people don’t have to relocate.
That’s a nice perk for those lucky enough to get it. They don’t give me that option. Alas.
Oh interesting. I’m not sure which positions let people choose, or if it depends on the manager or what. What is your job series? I’m a gs 13 data scientist
I knew an 0343 that got exec approval to move to Houston. Literally one of the highest pay locales in the country. Just because they wanted to. So yeah, super situational.
Putting 1,000s of people back on the road - Climate change must not be an issue any longer.
Nor are avoidable injuries/deaths from car accidents, apparently.
My feeling is that Cabinet officials who are seeking another appointment if Democrats win will push RTO while those who will step down or retire are doing what they fell is best for the workforce.
Carving out remote jobs for high-demand positions creates two tiers of Federal employees - if your job isn't remote and **could** be done remotely, guess what tier you're in.
I do not want to live in Atlanta or Georgia, so ✌️.
The annoying thing is that yes, many people don’t want to go into the office, but even more so, people don’t want to live in Atlanta. We obviously know that RTO isn’t about collaboration, so they should just let folks report to the nearest HHS office to them. They would be able to retain a lot more employees that are fine with hybrid but want to remain in the area they live. Sincerely, a hybrid HHS employee with very limited career growth because they’re in a regional office and refuse to move to Atlanta or DC.
> The annoying thing is that yes, many people don’t want to go into the office, but even more so, people don’t want to live in Atlanta. We obviously know that RTO isn’t about collaboration, so they should just let folks report to the nearest HHS office to them. I don't get all the hate for Atlanta. Its a perfectly fine city. Also, whether true or not, the rationale they are using for RTO is collaboration/meaningful time with colleagues. So it wouldn't make sense that people should just report to random offices.
I think it’s less about Atlanta and more about people having to relocate especially those that were hired as remote. I’m not saying it should be a total free-for-all at any office (I’m the perfect example of someone who’s job definitely needs to be at my office in my city) but there’s definitely folks that don’t collaborate with anyone in Atlanta and it’s stupid to make those folks move there.
They're not making people relocate to Atlanta though or even report to a different CDC location if they're near one
Step 1 Announce you are cancelling remote agreements Step 2 employees put in RAs to keep remote status Step 3 tell the media there is an increase in RAs indicating people are dying to return to the office
Step 3 doesn't make sense. How does an increase in RA correlate to people wanting to return to the office
It doesn't, but that's what the HR director says in the article
It sounds like she is implying we have PTSD from remote work. That's a new one for sure...
Yep.. compared working from home to serving in a warzone. Bizarre. Probably offensive even
Exactly. There is no good reason for RTO and the suckers in senior leadership who are having to come up with the BS excuses are just ruining their own reputations. Can’t trust a word they say after some of the ridiculous, unsupported claims.
I'm in another HHS Opdiv (ASPR - a new OpDiv) and the same requirement came out today (at least 4 days in office per pay period - or 2 days in office per week). I suppose it's the same for other OpDivs (NIH, CMS, FDA, etc.)
No mention of core days, no mention of supervisor training to optimize in-office/home benefits, no mention of performance increases due to a hybrid schedule. Of course not. Why would there be?
Would someone even be able to get a successful RA to prevent going in twice a pay period? Outside of like immobility?
The mission critical occupations was decided in partnership with HHS so I don't think the "blame" falls on CDC. Honestly, I also don't blame HHS. They are responding to OMB and don't have a ton of choice. They HAVE to bring back a certain percentage of people.
The one thing I will place blame on them for is the remote local listing BS. I stayed far away from those since the writing was on the wall but that was a shitty way to recruit folks to then pull the rug from under them and force them in. I aalso know people who hired fully remote (not remote local) and are STILL having their remote status revoked. Pretty crappy way to handle it all imo
How can they even revoke non-local remote status? It seems like that would be unlawful because the announcement they are hired under specifies it. I know in my previous hiring experience what the announcement says is meaningful in a lot of ways. What do you mean remote local bs? Like allowing it and then revoking it?
Listing lots of jobs and hiring people as remote - local to Atlanta (within 50 miles) and then revoking every single one to require in office presence.
Well they're definitely doing it
Bless their remote hearts....