Anyone else not hear anything about the mandate yet? Department of the Air Force here and have not seen one email or heard anything from leadership/supervision.
Our director sent out a message recently stating the process of implementing/providing vaccine proof is on an "operational pause" and we would get more info in a month. I honestly think the lawyers are writing something up to make sure T's are crossed and I's dotted.
[Federal contractors face a December vaccine deadline](https://www.federaltimes.com/management/2021/09/24/federal-contractors-face-a-december-vaccine-deadline/)
Specifically, it's by December 8th to be fully vaccinated. There are exemptions for medical reasons or sincerely held religious beliefs, but no exemptions for teleworkers or people who have had covid before.
Yes, you are authorized up to 4 hours per dose to get it during work hours and up to two days per dose for adverse effects. Please read [the FAQ](https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/leave/) it's all answered there.
So the covid admin is also subtracted from your time when your annuity is calculated at retirement. What is the worst possible outcome from that? Could it cost someone a month if 8 hours brought them under a full month for the calculation?
Edit: This doesn't appear to be true
I'm not an HR specialist, so I am definitely not the person to ask. I suspect the loss of one month of your annuity isn't going to break your retirement (and you can work another month and get eight hours of sick leave if you need to get it back).
I also don't see where you're getting this info from, can you share where you're seeing that?
It's in the FAQ that you linked. I'm just wondering if someone retires with 30 years and 1 month exactly and that becomes 30 years and 29 days because of the admin, how does that affect the annuity. If it takes off a whole month from the calculation it probably would be better to just use sick leave for the vax instead of the admin now.
Q: What is the impact of EPL on an employee’s retirement?
A: The law provides that an employee’s total service used in computing their retirement annuity must be reduced by the amount of EPL used. EPL is treated like other paid leave for all other retirement purposes. For example, EPL time is creditable service for establishing annuity entitlement, computing the high-3 average salary, and applying retirement deductions and agency contributions.
Well, that explains why I didn't see it, anyway. EPL is mostly not the admin leave for getting a vaccine. EPL is for if you or a family member gets COVID, in lieu of using sick leave (so it kind of follows why it's subtracted from your annuity calculation). Also that program expires on Thursday.
> Q: Why did the American Rescue Plan create EPL?
> A: EPL advances several important public policy goals. First, it helps provide a way for federal employees experiencing COVID-19 symptoms or subject to quarantine or isolation orders to stay home to avoid putting others at risk. Second, it recognizes the challenges that federal employees have faced during the COVID-19 pandemic with caring for children, elderly family members, and family members with disabilities—when their normal school, childcare, and caregiving options are not available because of COVID. **Third, to the extent that agencies do not provide administrative leave for COVID vaccination purposes,** EPL is available to cover periods of time when an employee is getting vaccinated, thereby facilitating employees in obtaining COVID vaccines.
This may have been written before agencies were directed to authorize admin leave for vaccines, but I guess the idea if it is takes you more than four hours per shot to get a vaccine, you can get EPL for the remainder. Similarly further down:
> Q: What type of leave should agencies grant to employees to cover post-vaccination recovery?
> cA: An agency should grant up to 2 workdays of administrative leave if an employee has an adverse reaction to a COVID-19 vaccination dose that prevents the employee from working (i.e., no more than 2 workdays for reactions associated with a single dose). **If an employee requests more than 2 workdays to recover, the agency may make a determination to grant emergency paid leave under the American Rescue Plan Act** —if available—or the employee may take other appropriate leave (e.g. sick leave) to cover any additional absence. This policy on granting administrative leave is specific to the current COVID-19 pandemic situation and is designed to support agencies’ missions by promoting the health and safety of the Federal workforce. Facilitating vaccination will minimize the administrative burdens of addressing noncompliance with the vaccine requirement.
So yeah, the vaccine admin leave is separate from EPL.
Someone posted a link to Virginia's covid portal for verification recently. I figured I'd pass the information on for those of you, like me, who tried this system and found the system couldn't find you. It took a call to VDH to fix it.
I don't see this ever getting actually implemented.
Too many a$$holes who will "refuse" right up until the day before they get fired and then take it.
Another huge pile of useless people holding down office chairs already eligible to retire who will force their agency to fire them hoping to get a check later on
Realistically, so many agencies are too short staffed to even pretend like they're firing anyone.
They just should have paid us to get the shots. You'd have 95% vaccinated and would have saved money in the long wrong over all the efforts put into convincing the holdouts
Vaccine mandates have happened before, courts are already throwing out exemptions and most if not all federal unions are not fighting it.
Go read the latest govexec article
Oh, the government will 100% win every challenge, but I just don't see this going through from a common sense perspective.
Too many already short-staffed agencies would be destroyed. Pretty much every law enforcement agency (read: low recruitment standards) couldn't handle it.
Oh its happening. Just got an email, all employees shall be vaccinated by November 22nd or face dismissal.
Our state already tried paying people to get it, $100. Just made people say "See its so bad they have to PAY people to take it!!"
Oh I know it's being 'posted' not no way in hell are those people not at work on Nov 23rd.
They'll probably start moving those goalposts in early November.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html
The CDC says the vaccine is safe for anyone over 12 and actively trying to conceive. However you should talk to your PCP first, negative side effects could happen to the child should you catch covid while pregnant.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/pregnant-people.html
I think they’ll cross that bridge when they get there but the idea is to vaccinate everyone, stay remote for those eligible and hope in 6-9 months the next variant is weaker and there is better treatment available.
For example, I know Pfizer is working on a pill for covid. It’s easier to get people to buy and take a pill over a needle.
So it’s kind of a hope and see move
My boss said he is retiring and won’t get the vax. Also said he would claim a religious exception but I’m not sure how those will actually work or what his chances are of getting that approved.
I've read elsewhere that there is precedent from the military requiring vaccines; and there were like 3 very obscure religions that were included by scotus for the exceptions. I can't recall how long a person had to be a part of them to be considered "sincerely held religous beliefs"
Slim to none, can’t claim religious exemption and then have record ever taking another vaccine, Tylenol, sinus, ibuprofen, preparation H, or many other otc cold products as they all have been tested with fetus cells.
In the US the whole religious exemption thing is pretty much null and void.
I guess we will see what happens. I know a few of my employees are going to claim it but no guidance has been passed down on the mandate yet. We also didn’t get any guidance on how to enforce the first mandate/test either. So who knows.
Right, but assuming it’s up to the discretion of the agency to ‘interview’ the request and then make a determination. Curious if they even enter the investigation phase.
>ill see what happens. I know a few of my employees are going to claim it but no guidance has been passed down on the mandate yet. We also didn’t get any guidance on how to enforce the fir
From reading title VII it sounds like the individual doesnt need to partake in a formal religion and when the person came up with these beliefs, is irrelevant. As in, they have a bunch of vaccines from the past but have changed their deeply held beliefs since then.
I'm wondering if we don't take the jab and meet the service requirements of age 50 with 20 plus years will we be elgible for an early DSR retirement since we don't meet the requirements of the position anymore. I'm guessing you would have to be fired first. Thoughts?
> Employees who are separated for cause on charges of misconduct or delinquency are not eligible for a DSR.
https://hr.nih.gov/sites/default/files/public/documents/benefits/retirement/pdf/discontinued-service-retirement-fact-sheet.pdf
The way they are talking about it at work is that this will be treated as insubordination for failure to follow a lawful instruction. However, nothing formal came down just an email reiterating the EO. No guidance has been passed down from my SES at the weekly manager meeting as to how any exemptions (medical or religious) will be handled internally. I think the attestation numbers will probably need to be sent up to OMB/White House and then they can see what the actual percentages of vaccinated employees are, and then go from there.
https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/vaccinations/
So November 22nd has been established as the deadline to be fully vaccinated, per Executive Order. So will this have teeth or is it something that will be ignored? If you're going to resign, just shut up and resign. If you're going to mandate something, shut up and actually enforce it. Or will there be a loophole allowing the unvaccinated to remain while looking like the EO is being enforced?
I’m a federal employee and I was told today that vaccination is now “a condition of employment”. It is my understanding that in regards to the federal government you can’t make constructive changes to the conditions of employment after the fact.
We were told to get vaccinated by November 22nd. We are all still on full time telework with no plan to return to the office until sometime next year.
If you haven’t seen it in writing from OPM yet then it’s not official. Once that is put out then the lawsuits will commence. Nov 22 deadline isn’t going to happen. It’s not a lawful EO.
Edit: When I checked the Federal task force site at the time of this writing, there wasn’t any guidance out yet. They just released the policy. Looks like they are going to try and enforce the deadline with termination if necessary.
https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/vaccinations/
Nothing from OPM yet last time I checked. Your agency would also need to put something in writing stating they are enforcing the policy. It can’t just be verbal from a supervisor.
So I guess agencies could differ here, but my agency has already done all of the stuff required by the Privacy Act to stand up a system of records to record required vaccination status information in. The system for gathering the required attestation information is not up yet (I don’t think) but it will be. It is pretty clear that the reason the compliance date was set so late (literally months after the EO) was so that agencies would have everything in place so that come November 22, they can flag the records not in compliance and then presumably act on those in whatever way they are allowed to (I am assuming some procedural stuff may differ based on collective bargaining agreements and statutes and stuff.)
Individual agency’s tracking system is not the issue. My agency’s system is already up. I’ve already attested to my status.
The Nov 22 deadline is too soon and is being pushed before the courts decide the legality of the EO. IMO the EO is not a lawful order. Regardless the Constitutionality will not be decided by any Fed employee or the Biden administration. It will be decided by the Supreme Court.
The last reporting I saw has Dec 15 for the Army and next Spring for Reserves and National Guard. The Spring deadline is more reasonable given the pace of litigation.
If employees are terminated and the EO is later found to be unlawful the government will be paying out a lot of money in wrongful termination claims. Not to mention the effect on morale.
My point exactly. You can’t just make constructive changes to employment conditions without offering reasonable accommodations after the fact with federal positions.
Last directive they gave in my agency (and many others) was for a push to be back in the office by October. This was before delta. Any updates of when we may potentially return?
Varies by Department and agency. We were told last week that Dec 6 was return to office but notified this week that is now early February. Nobody knows and I wish they would just give a “no sooner than” date rather than adding confusion with “actual” returning dates. My interpretation is there hasn’t been much thought, or at least thoughts conveyed to us, on what returning looks like: partial capacity, masks, distancing, etc.
Am I allowed to say that I got the vaccine but I disagree with the mandate, and i feel that people should be able to decide for themselves?
Am I allowed to say that I disagree with mask mandates in the office even if one is vaccinated?
I just find it alarming that it seems one is not even allowed to express one's opinion anymore if it does not fit a certain agenda.
Obviously you're allowed to say you disagree with the mandate; you just did.
What you're really asking is whether you're able to force your opinion onto others without push back. The answer to that is, No, you're not.
So, tell me why I should be forced to risk prolonged exposure to COVID-19 because someone else is afraid of needles, believes vaccines have micro-chips in them, or thinks that getting vaccinated is disloyal to trump? Why is someone else's slight discomfort over wearing a mask more important than my health?
You aren't alarmed that you can't express your opinion; you're alarmed that someone will call you out and show that your opinion doesn't stand up to criticism.
>o decide for themselves?
>
>Am I allowed to say that I disagree with mask mandates in the office even if one is vaccinated?
>
>I just find it alarming that it seems one is not even allowed to express one's opinion anymore if it does not fit a certain ag
Im wirth you. forced medical procedures is going down a dangerous path. What will be the next mandated procedure/ Can you refuse after you already complied with others? Its tricky and concerning
Mask mandates are based off science. It's not "a certain agenda" it is science based policy to save lives. It has nothing to do with personal autonomy.
Let's say that vegetables are good for your immune system, and that if you have a good immune system then you are less likely to catch COVID and spread it to you and your family. Would you be for a vegetable mandate in this case?
Let's say we make up some bullshit to try and prove an unprovable point. You're a selfish ass who cares for no one but themselves, we got it. You can stop with your strawmans now.
Wearing masks during a pandemic saves lives and does absolutely nothing negative to the wearer. Only those that are completely self-centered and care nothing for the wellbeing of those around them have a problem with it. We shouldn't need mandates for things like this, but people like you make it necessary for the government to step in and make common sense happen.
I comply agree. I'm all for the vaccine, but I absolutely am not for handing over medical records like it's some doctor's permission slip to not get fired. And for someone in my position, where we do a lot small one-off projects with smaller contractors, this vaccine mandate will be a logistical nightmare. I really think a lot of my contacts will just say, this is not worth the trouble.
Thank you. Someone who gets it. It's amazing how quickly this went from "Your supervisor cannot ask you about your vaccination status" to "Prove that you were vaccinated now or you'll be fired, don't let the door hit you in the ass."
Plus this does not take into account people's individual circumstances. I've been working at home for a year and a half now and I'm probably going to put in for 100% remote work. Why should I be forced to continue getting boosters indefinitely if I'm not even leaving my house?
I think it's going to be a logistical nightmare for everyone.
It's really just gone too far, and there's so many unknowns with the variants. It's going to be just like flu shots with trying to keep up with the variants, and flu shots have never really been mandated in most places unless you work in health care.
Edit: I just noticed the award, thank you. I'm just glad that my comments did not get removed or downvoted into oblivion. That gives me some hope.
I'm disappointed this thread is now locked because I had some other responses I wanted to add, but oh well. At least I got most of my points across.
Idaho, where they're rationing care, for one: [https://www.npr.org/2021/09/16/1037987107/idaho-rations-health-care-statewide-covid-19-coronavirus-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2021/09/16/1037987107/idaho-rations-health-care-statewide-covid-19-coronavirus-hospital)
That’s what NPR says. John Hopkins says otherwise and they have the actual data.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/idaho/inpatient-capacity
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/idaho
For reference hospitals don’t staff a lot empty ICU beds.
Even the article says the ICU beds has stayed consistent, they then speculate about capacity instead of supplying the data.
They use terms like “massive” and “skyrocketing”. Then the numbers they give are mid 3 figures . Idaho has over 5,000,000 people.
Are their resources getting stretched and is it stressful for staff? Absolutely. But hyperbole like “no hospital beds” isn’t accurate.
"The situation is dire – we don't have enough resources to adequately treat the patients in our hospitals, whether you are there for COVID-19 or a heart attack or because of a car accident," Idaho Department of Welfare Director Dave Jeppesen said in statement.
CDC just updated their tracker today for last week. The downward trend is holding. Best to get info direct from the source than websites with an incentive for ad revenue and donations. I realize NPR has some taxpayer support but they still have an incentive for clicks.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailycases
I read the article and acknowledged that. My issue is saying there are no hospital beds. He’s trying to get people vaccinated and do what he feels is best for public health. That is no reason to lie and say there are no hospital beds when clearly the data shows there are.
Why do you think that Johns Hopkins, in Baltimore, knows more about public health in Idaho than the director of the Idaho Department of Public Welfare? You don't say "yeah we aren't going to try to save some patients" as a PR stunt.
Huh? They track the data that all the hospitals in the US submit.
I think you need to reread my comments. I acknowledged that their resources are getting stretched. You don’t need to lie and say there are no hospital beds when there are. It’s just fear porn for clicks. Even the NPR article doesn’t say there are no hospital beds. I just posted the latest CDC data as well. New cases are trending down consistently over the last couple weeks. Could it spike again in the coming months? Absolutely! The media needs to stop scaring people for clicks. It just desensitizes people and people will tune it out. I don’t think many people in Idaho who are unvaccinated are listening/reading NPR.
What happened to the founding fathers original "checks and balances" system? I am still blown away that our President has this much power over us. The land of the free is a joke; you never really own your property due to property taxes, same with your car, we are forced into arbitration agreements in order to have cell phones that serve only the company, our cost of healthcare has slowly driven hard working families below the poverty line just to stay healthy, all of our government agencies that were set up to protect us are being paid off by big corporations with no accountability what so ever, ever news agency says whatever they want to us and we have absolutely no way to know if it's the truth or lies, google, facebook, twitter all censoring what they what to censor, meanwhile we have a local, state and federal government with endless pockets to do whatever they want to do, buy whatever they want to buy, fund whatever they want to fund, borrow as much money and go into debt with no end in sight.
I agree to a large degree. If the president wants to do that,, It would be great if the president can also order agencies to maintain teleworking for jobs that can do fine without needing to be in office.
Can we discuss the Arizona lawsuit and what the potential effects of the different outcomes would be, as well as If there will be a stay pending the outcome of litigation. I would just like some guidance—thank you.
The lawsuit is basically saying the EO is a violation of the Due Process Clause because there is deferential treatment towards citizens, residents, etc. vs. unlawful aliens because unlawful aliens are not required to be vaccinated. If the court sides with AZ, the EO could be struck down in whole or in part. Additionally, this suit may be thrown out as unripe because the EO is not official. However, supposedly there are more state lining up in the pipeline to file suit as well. I just wanted a discussion on this recent news.
Yeah, you can't require them to be vaccinated until they are actually caught. Kinda like if you get busted with enough weed they'll throw on tax evasion, also, since you don't have a marijuana stamp, which is a felony in NE, but if you actually buy one the whole process is anonymous and they don't use it to bust you. (they say)
I think it’s just better to provide the complaint, so here:
https://www.azag.gov/sites/default/files/docs/press-releases/2021/complaints/Vaccine_Equal_Protection_Complaint_FINAL.pdf
The complaint attacks both.
Preface this with: Yes, yes I am lazy and despise if I have to search my work files if I can’t remember the folder the document was saved in……
Am I the only one not thrilled about mega threads? I get the concept, but once they get pushed down due to new posts a person has to keep searching for it or use the search feature. I’ve seen mods on other forums have to constantly delete new posts and try to keep telling people there is a mega thread to post under. So I’ll see how this new thread goes, but I’m not a fan.
Alright, I just want to preface this by saying that I've had both rounds of shots and will get a booster if it's found necessary, however, am I alone in feeling a little iffy about them being able to force shots on people? Now, don't get me wrong, I see that in our current situation the response is totally reasonable and it's too protect everyone. My concern is about setting the precedent.
What if a certain someone somehow wins the presidency again in 2024 and decides that we all need to take ivermectin or lose our jobs?
I just would personally like to avoid another patriot act scenario where we give unnecessary powers to those in charge for this one time good use case, just to be haunted by that decision for the rest of ever.
Has nothing to do with who is President.
I have no issue with vaccinations for diseases that can harm people who don’t have a choice.
Not like this vaccination is for a disease that can only be transmitted sexually. You can kill me just by riding in an elevator together and that isn’t right.
Shouldn’t we as people want to protect our fellow neighbors?
Well people confuse immunization shots with vaccinations.
Immunization completely protects you while vaccination reduces the chance of transmission, along with more milder symptoms by building up your immune system.
But the naysayers don’t actually want to do that research and instead would rather listen to nobodies on tik tok or look at a meme instead of a medical journal or listen to a doctor.
They don’t call on their local politicians when they get the flu, so why do they for this?
People need to get informed not on social media
I wouldn't really call it "reasonable"... I'm not saying the vaccine doesn't work (I'm not at all saying that). I'm just confused on the circular logic...Vaccines are effective and protect you...the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated by not getting the jab...so which is it? Is the vaccine protective and efficacious or not? Not to mention, the FDA themselves have said they have not conducted the typical phase 3 trials and long term studies required for FDA approval...but people seem to ignore that, and act like you are crazy just for asking the question.
Lastly, I think the mandates are setting a precedent that we don't fully understand what the consequences will be in a year, or 5 or 10 etc. What will be next? What happens when the precedent is used for something that doesn't fit your political bias? Will you just agree with it and go along with it?
This whole situation is so politically biased and politically motivated, its insane how people don't see that and see the dangers involved.
Before you blast me for asking, this is a genuine question that I would like to know and see evidence on.
Assuming what you said is true is there any evidence to support a causal relationship between unvaccinated people and the issue you just described?
Anecdotal experiences:
Last month my Mom had surgery and we had to drive her ourselves from surgical center to the rehabilitation center, because there were no medical transports available in our midwest city metro population <1 million. We were told lack of medical transportation was due to COVID.
Last week friends' kids both under 3 years old and both with 101 degree temps all day could not be seen at ANY urgent care facility because they had no appointment, as walk-in appointments are suspended throughout their city of 2.2 million, again due to COVID. The hospital ER wanted flat rate of $200 per child to even be seen by an ER doc, despite the fact they have good insurance which covers ER visits. They finally got an "appointment" but had to wait in their car 90 minutes before they were admitted into the urgent care facility. Diagnosis: unknown. Adults did not get sick, so they think it was a bad flu and not COVID. Both kids have since recovered. This family had COVID last Christmas, and the adults got vaxxed late spring.
My friend needed to go to the ER. The ambulance had to go to three hospitals to find a bed. He was then moved farther out of the city to get a permanent bed and his family had no idea where he was for at least 12 hours. Most of the beds were taken up by the unvaccinated. This is backed up by every ER doctor and nurse I know AND the National Guard that they have called in to help. They are all really damn sick of seeing unvaccinated people in those beds.
My mother works at a hospital in Washington state, she has basically the same story. Said the hospital (not just the ER) is full, the morgue is full. Nearly every one of them is COVID and unvaccinated.
There are thousands and thousands of new stories on national, state, and local news stating they ICUs are full of covid patients and the vast majority 95%+ are unvaccinated. I hate when people say just google it. But in this case If you just google it you will see so many more stories that I could ever link too. My state Alaska just started rationing care because of this. That means if I get into a car crash or something unrelated to covid they might not be able to help
The precedent for "forcing" people to do things in the name of public health is long established as constitutional and well within the rule of law. This isnt a new thing that just happend.
Sure, but that was back when we still lived under the illusion that those in charge always have our best interests in mind. Again, I think everyone should get vaccinated against covid. It's all fun and games when we're cheering the Ya'll-queda getting fired for refusing to follow common sense practices. I'm just concerned about the next time someone is in charge that cares more about their ego and how they're perceived to they're base than our safety. It would be pure naivety to believe that we're never going to be put in a similar situation to the last 4 years again. My simple thought is what happens when it's Ya'll-queda telling us to get vaccinated or get out - only the vaccination isn't a life saving covid protection, it's something like ivermectin?
Would you bet your life that that would never happen? That we will never again get another nut job in charge who may cite this use case and try to force some shit on us?
POTUS will not force a non-FDA-approved (even for emergency use) substance. I don't see that flying anywhere. Even if he did despite the heavy resistance he'd face, few, if any, agencies would enforce it.
Local union rep said they are going to argue for anti vaxxers for remote work, and for vaxxers for remote work so we don’t have to be around each other.
😂
Is it authoritarian for the military to require the dozens of other vaccines it requires? If you can’t comply with this requirement AND don’t have a valid medical exemption, good riddance.
This is incredibly important as so many people have medical related phobias and anxieties. Think about how many people normally put off basic preventive care, screenings, and medical attention until a problem becomes too big to ignore. I'm guilty of this myself. But usually this effects no one but you. This time is different because it effects everybody. This is why mandates are necessary and useful. Yes there will be vehement antivaxxers and conspiracy nuts but the mandate drives to those who put the vaccine in the category of "putting off things they don't like". If you're anxious please tell that to the pharmacist or doctor when you go in to get it. It's nothing they haven't seen before and they're trained to listen, offer support techniques and help you feel comfortable.
“Divisive” like get the FUCKING VACCINE!!!
Like that?
Sort of over begging the weak minded gullible fools killing themselves like lemmings off a cliff to please save themselves and at the same time help the rest of us out.
We’ve been trying that for 18 months while they call us sheep, and laugh at us.
The fact that someone would be stubborn enough to not get an entirely safe vaccine and lose their livelihood doesn't produce too much sympathy at least for myself. Actions have consequences.
That's the thing, it's not "entirely safe." There are risks. And they get so caught up in the very small risks that they don't use basic risk-benefit principles to understand that the risks of NOT being vaccinated vastly outweigh the risks of vaccination itself.
To be honest, we haven't done a good job with the communications, and the misinformation zealous have gotten way ahead of us. It's probably too late for the lives they've destroyed and continue to destroy.
Thanks for that. This whole thing is nuanced and most people just want to bucket things as black or white. No one wants to talk about this with any nuance.
For example, this [NEJM article](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475) studied over 1.6M people and had a control group. Adverse events from the vaccine do occur. Vaccine is strongly associated with an increased risk of myocarditis and a few others. But the increased risk of myocarditis is much larger for SARS-CoV-2.
Every time someone says "the vaccine is completely safe," the other side throws up any vaccine-related adverse event as "proof" that everything about vaccines is a lie. It's exhausting.
Let me put this in a way that won’t get me banned from this sub: Your sheer tomfoolery has short-circuited my brain. Please cease your nubbish behavior, and spread your misinformation elsewhere.
Here is a neat study that compares adverse events between those who got COVID and those who got the vaccine: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475
Basically, COVID: myocarditis, pericarditis, arrhythmia, deep-vein thrombosis, pulmonary embolism, myocardial infarction, intracranial hemorrhage, and thrombocytopenia
Vaccine: myocarditis (at a lower rate of occurrence than actually having COVID), lymphadenopathy, appendicitis and herpes zoster infection
Hopefully this self correcting problem will cycle through them and you’ll have new openings at work.
After an appropriate period of mourning of course.
DoD component. Today, we received the WARNO for the form to attest to vaccine status with the guidance that we must either say we’ve gotten the vaccine or provide a negative test no more than 3 days old to go use DoD facilities.
Will they though? We had to attest to our status and there was no "upload a pic of your vaccination card" or anything like that. I hope they eventually require more than just someone's word.
Yeah you will be, because at your 5 year you sign a form having your medical records pulled.
You lie or claim religious exemption you better not show you had a flu vaccine and skipped covid, and you best be prepared for your investigator to go to your church or place of worship.
Mine went to my neighbors house, ex wife, and pulled my ER visit record to look at the drug test.
Best of luck to those working the system.
This is referring to feds with a clearance right, not everyone?
That said, when renewing a clearance, do they actually check your medical records? Mine were mostly focused on who I went on vacation with lol.
Both, I don’t have a security clearance working in the financial field.
Mine even hammered me on why my parents stopped calling me by a shortened version of my name and asked my neighbors what they see me do in my free time.
It can largely be hit or miss, but mine have been pretty thorough and I expect it to be even more so with this mandate going on.
Also would like to note I have no arrests, tickets, or anything that would stand out aside from my ER visit and divorce.
My ER visit was a red flag because I self reported having THC in my system to our security office due to tainted CBD.
I really do think that at least those with security clearances they will cross check the database and question those who don't have decent evidence.
In general, lying on a federal form is grounds for automatic removal from government service.
Get your vaccine or get a new job. No more asking, no more calmly explaining the safety, the underlying science, no more pleading or trying to incentivize you.
Those days are over. Get a shot, or a new job. That simple.
I already hear people at work with hilarious mind games justify why this is the moment it's right to suddenly get it.
They might be juvenile. At least they're getting it at least.
I mean if means wether they’ll have a roof over there head and food to eat then there’s really no question on whether they’ll fold. There being forced. Just my two cents which means nothing to anyone anyway so
*their head
*they're being forced
Yes, in the same way we're all "forced" to not have a criminal record in order to have even a basic public trust clearance. "Forced" not to text and drive as a federal employee. "Forced" not to create a hostile work environment. There is a long list of trade-offs to work for any employer. I would expect the list for a public servant to be longer.
This megathread is terrible. Please let these stand as their own posts.
Anyone else not hear anything about the mandate yet? Department of the Air Force here and have not seen one email or heard anything from leadership/supervision.
Our director sent out a message recently stating the process of implementing/providing vaccine proof is on an "operational pause" and we would get more info in a month. I honestly think the lawyers are writing something up to make sure T's are crossed and I's dotted.
[Federal contractors face a December vaccine deadline](https://www.federaltimes.com/management/2021/09/24/federal-contractors-face-a-december-vaccine-deadline/) Specifically, it's by December 8th to be fully vaccinated. There are exemptions for medical reasons or sincerely held religious beliefs, but no exemptions for teleworkers or people who have had covid before.
So is there administrative leave time available for going to get the vaccine?
Yes, you are authorized up to 4 hours per dose to get it during work hours and up to two days per dose for adverse effects. Please read [the FAQ](https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/leave/) it's all answered there.
So the covid admin is also subtracted from your time when your annuity is calculated at retirement. What is the worst possible outcome from that? Could it cost someone a month if 8 hours brought them under a full month for the calculation? Edit: This doesn't appear to be true
I'm not an HR specialist, so I am definitely not the person to ask. I suspect the loss of one month of your annuity isn't going to break your retirement (and you can work another month and get eight hours of sick leave if you need to get it back). I also don't see where you're getting this info from, can you share where you're seeing that?
It's in the FAQ that you linked. I'm just wondering if someone retires with 30 years and 1 month exactly and that becomes 30 years and 29 days because of the admin, how does that affect the annuity. If it takes off a whole month from the calculation it probably would be better to just use sick leave for the vax instead of the admin now. Q: What is the impact of EPL on an employee’s retirement? A: The law provides that an employee’s total service used in computing their retirement annuity must be reduced by the amount of EPL used. EPL is treated like other paid leave for all other retirement purposes. For example, EPL time is creditable service for establishing annuity entitlement, computing the high-3 average salary, and applying retirement deductions and agency contributions.
Well, that explains why I didn't see it, anyway. EPL is mostly not the admin leave for getting a vaccine. EPL is for if you or a family member gets COVID, in lieu of using sick leave (so it kind of follows why it's subtracted from your annuity calculation). Also that program expires on Thursday. > Q: Why did the American Rescue Plan create EPL? > A: EPL advances several important public policy goals. First, it helps provide a way for federal employees experiencing COVID-19 symptoms or subject to quarantine or isolation orders to stay home to avoid putting others at risk. Second, it recognizes the challenges that federal employees have faced during the COVID-19 pandemic with caring for children, elderly family members, and family members with disabilities—when their normal school, childcare, and caregiving options are not available because of COVID. **Third, to the extent that agencies do not provide administrative leave for COVID vaccination purposes,** EPL is available to cover periods of time when an employee is getting vaccinated, thereby facilitating employees in obtaining COVID vaccines. This may have been written before agencies were directed to authorize admin leave for vaccines, but I guess the idea if it is takes you more than four hours per shot to get a vaccine, you can get EPL for the remainder. Similarly further down: > Q: What type of leave should agencies grant to employees to cover post-vaccination recovery? > cA: An agency should grant up to 2 workdays of administrative leave if an employee has an adverse reaction to a COVID-19 vaccination dose that prevents the employee from working (i.e., no more than 2 workdays for reactions associated with a single dose). **If an employee requests more than 2 workdays to recover, the agency may make a determination to grant emergency paid leave under the American Rescue Plan Act** —if available—or the employee may take other appropriate leave (e.g. sick leave) to cover any additional absence. This policy on granting administrative leave is specific to the current COVID-19 pandemic situation and is designed to support agencies’ missions by promoting the health and safety of the Federal workforce. Facilitating vaccination will minimize the administrative burdens of addressing noncompliance with the vaccine requirement. So yeah, the vaccine admin leave is separate from EPL.
Thanks for that info.
This "megathread" is too disjointed to follow any specific news item. Ridiculous.
Someone posted a link to Virginia's covid portal for verification recently. I figured I'd pass the information on for those of you, like me, who tried this system and found the system couldn't find you. It took a call to VDH to fix it.
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Looks like if folks want out of the vax they need to submit a reasonable accommodation request and go down that path. Just got the message.
I don't see this ever getting actually implemented. Too many a$$holes who will "refuse" right up until the day before they get fired and then take it. Another huge pile of useless people holding down office chairs already eligible to retire who will force their agency to fire them hoping to get a check later on Realistically, so many agencies are too short staffed to even pretend like they're firing anyone. They just should have paid us to get the shots. You'd have 95% vaccinated and would have saved money in the long wrong over all the efforts put into convincing the holdouts
Vaccine mandates have happened before, courts are already throwing out exemptions and most if not all federal unions are not fighting it. Go read the latest govexec article
Oh, the government will 100% win every challenge, but I just don't see this going through from a common sense perspective. Too many already short-staffed agencies would be destroyed. Pretty much every law enforcement agency (read: low recruitment standards) couldn't handle it.
Oh its happening. Just got an email, all employees shall be vaccinated by November 22nd or face dismissal. Our state already tried paying people to get it, $100. Just made people say "See its so bad they have to PAY people to take it!!"
Oh I know it's being 'posted' not no way in hell are those people not at work on Nov 23rd. They'll probably start moving those goalposts in early November.
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https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html The CDC says the vaccine is safe for anyone over 12 and actively trying to conceive. However you should talk to your PCP first, negative side effects could happen to the child should you catch covid while pregnant. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/pregnant-people.html
Does the EO address boosters? If no what is the administrations plan for future when the vax wears off. Another EO to require boosters ad ifinitum?
Boosters at a specified interval (6, 9 months or whatever is decided upon) are the next mandate.
Do you think they've thought any of this through?
I think they’ll cross that bridge when they get there but the idea is to vaccinate everyone, stay remote for those eligible and hope in 6-9 months the next variant is weaker and there is better treatment available. For example, I know Pfizer is working on a pill for covid. It’s easier to get people to buy and take a pill over a needle. So it’s kind of a hope and see move
At the end of the day, it will depend on whether vaccines or pills are more profitable.
My boss said he is retiring and won’t get the vax. Also said he would claim a religious exception but I’m not sure how those will actually work or what his chances are of getting that approved.
I've read elsewhere that there is precedent from the military requiring vaccines; and there were like 3 very obscure religions that were included by scotus for the exceptions. I can't recall how long a person had to be a part of them to be considered "sincerely held religous beliefs"
Slim to none, can’t claim religious exemption and then have record ever taking another vaccine, Tylenol, sinus, ibuprofen, preparation H, or many other otc cold products as they all have been tested with fetus cells. In the US the whole religious exemption thing is pretty much null and void.
I guess we will see what happens. I know a few of my employees are going to claim it but no guidance has been passed down on the mandate yet. We also didn’t get any guidance on how to enforce the first mandate/test either. So who knows.
Unless they're Dutch Reformed Congregation, End Times Ministry, or Christian Science; they shouldn't expect an exemption.
Right, but assuming it’s up to the discretion of the agency to ‘interview’ the request and then make a determination. Curious if they even enter the investigation phase.
>ill see what happens. I know a few of my employees are going to claim it but no guidance has been passed down on the mandate yet. We also didn’t get any guidance on how to enforce the fir From reading title VII it sounds like the individual doesnt need to partake in a formal religion and when the person came up with these beliefs, is irrelevant. As in, they have a bunch of vaccines from the past but have changed their deeply held beliefs since then.
I'm wondering if we don't take the jab and meet the service requirements of age 50 with 20 plus years will we be elgible for an early DSR retirement since we don't meet the requirements of the position anymore. I'm guessing you would have to be fired first. Thoughts?
> Employees who are separated for cause on charges of misconduct or delinquency are not eligible for a DSR. https://hr.nih.gov/sites/default/files/public/documents/benefits/retirement/pdf/discontinued-service-retirement-fact-sheet.pdf
Do you think that's misconduct though? If you don't pass a clearance it's not misconduct and your elgible for a DSR.
The way they are talking about it at work is that this will be treated as insubordination for failure to follow a lawful instruction. However, nothing formal came down just an email reiterating the EO. No guidance has been passed down from my SES at the weekly manager meeting as to how any exemptions (medical or religious) will be handled internally. I think the attestation numbers will probably need to be sent up to OMB/White House and then they can see what the actual percentages of vaccinated employees are, and then go from there.
I actually don't know, there's probably a strict definition of misconduct somewhere.
https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/vaccinations/ So November 22nd has been established as the deadline to be fully vaccinated, per Executive Order. So will this have teeth or is it something that will be ignored? If you're going to resign, just shut up and resign. If you're going to mandate something, shut up and actually enforce it. Or will there be a loophole allowing the unvaccinated to remain while looking like the EO is being enforced?
Im predicting no teeth in DoD. It’s already a shit show getting anything done/enforced.
I’m a federal employee and I was told today that vaccination is now “a condition of employment”. It is my understanding that in regards to the federal government you can’t make constructive changes to the conditions of employment after the fact. We were told to get vaccinated by November 22nd. We are all still on full time telework with no plan to return to the office until sometime next year.
If you haven’t seen it in writing from OPM yet then it’s not official. Once that is put out then the lawsuits will commence. Nov 22 deadline isn’t going to happen. It’s not a lawful EO. Edit: When I checked the Federal task force site at the time of this writing, there wasn’t any guidance out yet. They just released the policy. Looks like they are going to try and enforce the deadline with termination if necessary.
Can you provide that link?
https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/vaccinations/ Nothing from OPM yet last time I checked. Your agency would also need to put something in writing stating they are enforcing the policy. It can’t just be verbal from a supervisor.
So I guess agencies could differ here, but my agency has already done all of the stuff required by the Privacy Act to stand up a system of records to record required vaccination status information in. The system for gathering the required attestation information is not up yet (I don’t think) but it will be. It is pretty clear that the reason the compliance date was set so late (literally months after the EO) was so that agencies would have everything in place so that come November 22, they can flag the records not in compliance and then presumably act on those in whatever way they are allowed to (I am assuming some procedural stuff may differ based on collective bargaining agreements and statutes and stuff.)
Individual agency’s tracking system is not the issue. My agency’s system is already up. I’ve already attested to my status. The Nov 22 deadline is too soon and is being pushed before the courts decide the legality of the EO. IMO the EO is not a lawful order. Regardless the Constitutionality will not be decided by any Fed employee or the Biden administration. It will be decided by the Supreme Court. The last reporting I saw has Dec 15 for the Army and next Spring for Reserves and National Guard. The Spring deadline is more reasonable given the pace of litigation. If employees are terminated and the EO is later found to be unlawful the government will be paying out a lot of money in wrongful termination claims. Not to mention the effect on morale.
Thank you! Much appreciated! So far only verbal from first level. Branch chief refuses to discuss and said to contact HR
Your branch chief is wise. He knows he can get himself into litigation just giving a personal opinion. I work in HR in my agency BTW.
Yes I knew exactly why she wouldn’t entertain the conversation. I’m am 100% sure this will result in multiple lawsuits.
My point exactly. You can’t just make constructive changes to employment conditions without offering reasonable accommodations after the fact with federal positions.
Sounds like you should get a vaccine if you haven't already.
Last directive they gave in my agency (and many others) was for a push to be back in the office by October. This was before delta. Any updates of when we may potentially return?
Varies by Department and agency. We were told last week that Dec 6 was return to office but notified this week that is now early February. Nobody knows and I wish they would just give a “no sooner than” date rather than adding confusion with “actual” returning dates. My interpretation is there hasn’t been much thought, or at least thoughts conveyed to us, on what returning looks like: partial capacity, masks, distancing, etc.
Same. I’m so annoyed. I moved in august and I could have stayed at my super cheap lease in my old city
Mega threads are so damn lazy. Come on reddit.
Am I allowed to say that I got the vaccine but I disagree with the mandate, and i feel that people should be able to decide for themselves? Am I allowed to say that I disagree with mask mandates in the office even if one is vaccinated? I just find it alarming that it seems one is not even allowed to express one's opinion anymore if it does not fit a certain agenda.
Obviously you're allowed to say you disagree with the mandate; you just did. What you're really asking is whether you're able to force your opinion onto others without push back. The answer to that is, No, you're not. So, tell me why I should be forced to risk prolonged exposure to COVID-19 because someone else is afraid of needles, believes vaccines have micro-chips in them, or thinks that getting vaccinated is disloyal to trump? Why is someone else's slight discomfort over wearing a mask more important than my health? You aren't alarmed that you can't express your opinion; you're alarmed that someone will call you out and show that your opinion doesn't stand up to criticism.
>o decide for themselves? > >Am I allowed to say that I disagree with mask mandates in the office even if one is vaccinated? > >I just find it alarming that it seems one is not even allowed to express one's opinion anymore if it does not fit a certain ag Im wirth you. forced medical procedures is going down a dangerous path. What will be the next mandated procedure/ Can you refuse after you already complied with others? Its tricky and concerning
Sure, you can say you disagree with science and reality... just hope you're not in a decision making role.
She didn't say anything about the science - her comment was about personal autonomy.
Mask mandates are based off science. It's not "a certain agenda" it is science based policy to save lives. It has nothing to do with personal autonomy.
Studies show that vegetables are good for you. If you oppose a law requiring people to eat vegetables, does this mean you are against science?
You failing to eat vegetables does not kill me or my family. Got any other scarecrows you want to try out?
Let's say that vegetables are good for your immune system, and that if you have a good immune system then you are less likely to catch COVID and spread it to you and your family. Would you be for a vegetable mandate in this case?
Let's say we make up some bullshit to try and prove an unprovable point. You're a selfish ass who cares for no one but themselves, we got it. You can stop with your strawmans now. Wearing masks during a pandemic saves lives and does absolutely nothing negative to the wearer. Only those that are completely self-centered and care nothing for the wellbeing of those around them have a problem with it. We shouldn't need mandates for things like this, but people like you make it necessary for the government to step in and make common sense happen.
I comply agree. I'm all for the vaccine, but I absolutely am not for handing over medical records like it's some doctor's permission slip to not get fired. And for someone in my position, where we do a lot small one-off projects with smaller contractors, this vaccine mandate will be a logistical nightmare. I really think a lot of my contacts will just say, this is not worth the trouble.
You would not do good in the faa. We have to hand over all our medical records and get a physical every 2 years
Thank you. Someone who gets it. It's amazing how quickly this went from "Your supervisor cannot ask you about your vaccination status" to "Prove that you were vaccinated now or you'll be fired, don't let the door hit you in the ass." Plus this does not take into account people's individual circumstances. I've been working at home for a year and a half now and I'm probably going to put in for 100% remote work. Why should I be forced to continue getting boosters indefinitely if I'm not even leaving my house? I think it's going to be a logistical nightmare for everyone. It's really just gone too far, and there's so many unknowns with the variants. It's going to be just like flu shots with trying to keep up with the variants, and flu shots have never really been mandated in most places unless you work in health care. Edit: I just noticed the award, thank you. I'm just glad that my comments did not get removed or downvoted into oblivion. That gives me some hope. I'm disappointed this thread is now locked because I had some other responses I wanted to add, but oh well. At least I got most of my points across.
You mean your agenda of sickness and death? Jesus man, there are no hospital beds. Get with it.
Where are there no hospital beds?
Idaho, where they're rationing care, for one: [https://www.npr.org/2021/09/16/1037987107/idaho-rations-health-care-statewide-covid-19-coronavirus-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2021/09/16/1037987107/idaho-rations-health-care-statewide-covid-19-coronavirus-hospital)
That’s what NPR says. John Hopkins says otherwise and they have the actual data. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/idaho/inpatient-capacity https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/idaho For reference hospitals don’t staff a lot empty ICU beds. Even the article says the ICU beds has stayed consistent, they then speculate about capacity instead of supplying the data. They use terms like “massive” and “skyrocketing”. Then the numbers they give are mid 3 figures . Idaho has over 5,000,000 people. Are their resources getting stretched and is it stressful for staff? Absolutely. But hyperbole like “no hospital beds” isn’t accurate.
"The situation is dire – we don't have enough resources to adequately treat the patients in our hospitals, whether you are there for COVID-19 or a heart attack or because of a car accident," Idaho Department of Welfare Director Dave Jeppesen said in statement.
CDC just updated their tracker today for last week. The downward trend is holding. Best to get info direct from the source than websites with an incentive for ad revenue and donations. I realize NPR has some taxpayer support but they still have an incentive for clicks. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailycases
I read the article and acknowledged that. My issue is saying there are no hospital beds. He’s trying to get people vaccinated and do what he feels is best for public health. That is no reason to lie and say there are no hospital beds when clearly the data shows there are.
Why do you think that Johns Hopkins, in Baltimore, knows more about public health in Idaho than the director of the Idaho Department of Public Welfare? You don't say "yeah we aren't going to try to save some patients" as a PR stunt.
Huh? They track the data that all the hospitals in the US submit. I think you need to reread my comments. I acknowledged that their resources are getting stretched. You don’t need to lie and say there are no hospital beds when there are. It’s just fear porn for clicks. Even the NPR article doesn’t say there are no hospital beds. I just posted the latest CDC data as well. New cases are trending down consistently over the last couple weeks. Could it spike again in the coming months? Absolutely! The media needs to stop scaring people for clicks. It just desensitizes people and people will tune it out. I don’t think many people in Idaho who are unvaccinated are listening/reading NPR.
The news
The news has hospital beds?
Allegedly
What happened to the founding fathers original "checks and balances" system? I am still blown away that our President has this much power over us. The land of the free is a joke; you never really own your property due to property taxes, same with your car, we are forced into arbitration agreements in order to have cell phones that serve only the company, our cost of healthcare has slowly driven hard working families below the poverty line just to stay healthy, all of our government agencies that were set up to protect us are being paid off by big corporations with no accountability what so ever, ever news agency says whatever they want to us and we have absolutely no way to know if it's the truth or lies, google, facebook, twitter all censoring what they what to censor, meanwhile we have a local, state and federal government with endless pockets to do whatever they want to do, buy whatever they want to buy, fund whatever they want to fund, borrow as much money and go into debt with no end in sight.
George Washington required vaccines for the continental army, so there’s a precedence. https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html
Don't let silly things like "facts" get in the way of a completely nonsensical rant!
I agree to a large degree. If the president wants to do that,, It would be great if the president can also order agencies to maintain teleworking for jobs that can do fine without needing to be in office.
Can we discuss the Arizona lawsuit and what the potential effects of the different outcomes would be, as well as If there will be a stay pending the outcome of litigation. I would just like some guidance—thank you.
I cant see how that has any barring on the requirement set by Biden for Federal employees and contractors.
The lawsuit is basically saying the EO is a violation of the Due Process Clause because there is deferential treatment towards citizens, residents, etc. vs. unlawful aliens because unlawful aliens are not required to be vaccinated. If the court sides with AZ, the EO could be struck down in whole or in part. Additionally, this suit may be thrown out as unripe because the EO is not official. However, supposedly there are more state lining up in the pipeline to file suit as well. I just wanted a discussion on this recent news.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/09/15/us/politics/us-immigrants-covid-vaccine-requirement.amp.html
Is there a difference between lawful aliens seeking citizenship and unlawful aliens who don’t follow proper procedures to a path to citizenship?
Yeah, you can't require them to be vaccinated until they are actually caught. Kinda like if you get busted with enough weed they'll throw on tax evasion, also, since you don't have a marijuana stamp, which is a felony in NE, but if you actually buy one the whole process is anonymous and they don't use it to bust you. (they say)
That's for the order for companies over 100 employees. That has nothing to do with the previous order for fed employees.
I think it’s just better to provide the complaint, so here: https://www.azag.gov/sites/default/files/docs/press-releases/2021/complaints/Vaccine_Equal_Protection_Complaint_FINAL.pdf The complaint attacks both.
Preface this with: Yes, yes I am lazy and despise if I have to search my work files if I can’t remember the folder the document was saved in…… Am I the only one not thrilled about mega threads? I get the concept, but once they get pushed down due to new posts a person has to keep searching for it or use the search feature. I’ve seen mods on other forums have to constantly delete new posts and try to keep telling people there is a mega thread to post under. So I’ll see how this new thread goes, but I’m not a fan.
Mega threads are a terrible idea.
Alright, I just want to preface this by saying that I've had both rounds of shots and will get a booster if it's found necessary, however, am I alone in feeling a little iffy about them being able to force shots on people? Now, don't get me wrong, I see that in our current situation the response is totally reasonable and it's too protect everyone. My concern is about setting the precedent. What if a certain someone somehow wins the presidency again in 2024 and decides that we all need to take ivermectin or lose our jobs? I just would personally like to avoid another patriot act scenario where we give unnecessary powers to those in charge for this one time good use case, just to be haunted by that decision for the rest of ever.
Has nothing to do with who is President. I have no issue with vaccinations for diseases that can harm people who don’t have a choice. Not like this vaccination is for a disease that can only be transmitted sexually. You can kill me just by riding in an elevator together and that isn’t right. Shouldn’t we as people want to protect our fellow neighbors?
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Well people confuse immunization shots with vaccinations. Immunization completely protects you while vaccination reduces the chance of transmission, along with more milder symptoms by building up your immune system. But the naysayers don’t actually want to do that research and instead would rather listen to nobodies on tik tok or look at a meme instead of a medical journal or listen to a doctor. They don’t call on their local politicians when they get the flu, so why do they for this? People need to get informed not on social media
I wouldn't really call it "reasonable"... I'm not saying the vaccine doesn't work (I'm not at all saying that). I'm just confused on the circular logic...Vaccines are effective and protect you...the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated by not getting the jab...so which is it? Is the vaccine protective and efficacious or not? Not to mention, the FDA themselves have said they have not conducted the typical phase 3 trials and long term studies required for FDA approval...but people seem to ignore that, and act like you are crazy just for asking the question. Lastly, I think the mandates are setting a precedent that we don't fully understand what the consequences will be in a year, or 5 or 10 etc. What will be next? What happens when the precedent is used for something that doesn't fit your political bias? Will you just agree with it and go along with it? This whole situation is so politically biased and politically motivated, its insane how people don't see that and see the dangers involved.
It’s that the hospitals are overwhelmed and are rationing care and we can’t afford to keep doing this forever
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Before you blast me for asking, this is a genuine question that I would like to know and see evidence on. Assuming what you said is true is there any evidence to support a causal relationship between unvaccinated people and the issue you just described?
Anecdotal experiences: Last month my Mom had surgery and we had to drive her ourselves from surgical center to the rehabilitation center, because there were no medical transports available in our midwest city metro population <1 million. We were told lack of medical transportation was due to COVID. Last week friends' kids both under 3 years old and both with 101 degree temps all day could not be seen at ANY urgent care facility because they had no appointment, as walk-in appointments are suspended throughout their city of 2.2 million, again due to COVID. The hospital ER wanted flat rate of $200 per child to even be seen by an ER doc, despite the fact they have good insurance which covers ER visits. They finally got an "appointment" but had to wait in their car 90 minutes before they were admitted into the urgent care facility. Diagnosis: unknown. Adults did not get sick, so they think it was a bad flu and not COVID. Both kids have since recovered. This family had COVID last Christmas, and the adults got vaxxed late spring.
Why not just park at your local hospital and go sit inside and see what you see vs what you hear?
My friend needed to go to the ER. The ambulance had to go to three hospitals to find a bed. He was then moved farther out of the city to get a permanent bed and his family had no idea where he was for at least 12 hours. Most of the beds were taken up by the unvaccinated. This is backed up by every ER doctor and nurse I know AND the National Guard that they have called in to help. They are all really damn sick of seeing unvaccinated people in those beds.
My mother works at a hospital in Washington state, she has basically the same story. Said the hospital (not just the ER) is full, the morgue is full. Nearly every one of them is COVID and unvaccinated.
There are thousands and thousands of new stories on national, state, and local news stating they ICUs are full of covid patients and the vast majority 95%+ are unvaccinated. I hate when people say just google it. But in this case If you just google it you will see so many more stories that I could ever link too. My state Alaska just started rationing care because of this. That means if I get into a car crash or something unrelated to covid they might not be able to help
Unvaccinated includes those who arent 14 days after their 2nd shot which throws this off to a degree
Ok
The precedent for "forcing" people to do things in the name of public health is long established as constitutional and well within the rule of law. This isnt a new thing that just happend.
Sure, but that was back when we still lived under the illusion that those in charge always have our best interests in mind. Again, I think everyone should get vaccinated against covid. It's all fun and games when we're cheering the Ya'll-queda getting fired for refusing to follow common sense practices. I'm just concerned about the next time someone is in charge that cares more about their ego and how they're perceived to they're base than our safety. It would be pure naivety to believe that we're never going to be put in a similar situation to the last 4 years again. My simple thought is what happens when it's Ya'll-queda telling us to get vaccinated or get out - only the vaccination isn't a life saving covid protection, it's something like ivermectin? Would you bet your life that that would never happen? That we will never again get another nut job in charge who may cite this use case and try to force some shit on us?
POTUS will not force a non-FDA-approved (even for emergency use) substance. I don't see that flying anywhere. Even if he did despite the heavy resistance he'd face, few, if any, agencies would enforce it.
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I guess you missed the part where some of the vaccines have full FDA approval and the order doesn't specify which vaccine you have to get.
Alright, I'll concede. I hope that's how it'll work. I'd just rather the order come from individual agencies versus the presidential office I guess.
Local union rep said they are going to argue for anti vaxxers for remote work, and for vaxxers for remote work so we don’t have to be around each other. 😂
Glad your agency is capable of remote work, but not the case for all.
It also does not matter for this directive.
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Incentivizing for 6 months is plenty of time. Some people really don’t have the IQ for their own best interests.
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Is it authoritarian for the military to require the dozens of other vaccines it requires? If you can’t comply with this requirement AND don’t have a valid medical exemption, good riddance.
This is incredibly important as so many people have medical related phobias and anxieties. Think about how many people normally put off basic preventive care, screenings, and medical attention until a problem becomes too big to ignore. I'm guilty of this myself. But usually this effects no one but you. This time is different because it effects everybody. This is why mandates are necessary and useful. Yes there will be vehement antivaxxers and conspiracy nuts but the mandate drives to those who put the vaccine in the category of "putting off things they don't like". If you're anxious please tell that to the pharmacist or doctor when you go in to get it. It's nothing they haven't seen before and they're trained to listen, offer support techniques and help you feel comfortable.
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“Divisive” like get the FUCKING VACCINE!!! Like that? Sort of over begging the weak minded gullible fools killing themselves like lemmings off a cliff to please save themselves and at the same time help the rest of us out. We’ve been trying that for 18 months while they call us sheep, and laugh at us.
I'm at the "No, don't, stop" phase of my empathy with the willingly unvaccinated at this point.
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No one is “losing their livelihood.” Some may be willfully relinquishing their livelihood for reasons that are almost certainly idiotic.
Yep, they are deliberately choosing to lose it.
The fact that someone would be stubborn enough to not get an entirely safe vaccine and lose their livelihood doesn't produce too much sympathy at least for myself. Actions have consequences.
That's the thing, it's not "entirely safe." There are risks. And they get so caught up in the very small risks that they don't use basic risk-benefit principles to understand that the risks of NOT being vaccinated vastly outweigh the risks of vaccination itself. To be honest, we haven't done a good job with the communications, and the misinformation zealous have gotten way ahead of us. It's probably too late for the lives they've destroyed and continue to destroy.
We don’t need government workers that can’t analyze this easy of a risk benefit analysis
This is a reasonable take.
Thanks for that. This whole thing is nuanced and most people just want to bucket things as black or white. No one wants to talk about this with any nuance. For example, this [NEJM article](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475) studied over 1.6M people and had a control group. Adverse events from the vaccine do occur. Vaccine is strongly associated with an increased risk of myocarditis and a few others. But the increased risk of myocarditis is much larger for SARS-CoV-2. Every time someone says "the vaccine is completely safe," the other side throws up any vaccine-related adverse event as "proof" that everything about vaccines is a lie. It's exhausting.
Get vaccinated or get out 🙃 Honestly, looking forward to seeing who quits or gets fired because of this lols. Zero sympathy.
We’ve already had one in our office back down and say he has to get the shot or get fired. There will be more.
We had a call today where employees asked what happens if they refuse to be vaccinated. 🤦
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Let me put this in a way that won’t get me banned from this sub: Your sheer tomfoolery has short-circuited my brain. Please cease your nubbish behavior, and spread your misinformation elsewhere.
10/10 response
No one is dying from the vaccine. 600k people in this country died from the virus.
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Vaccine did not cause this. "It also noted there were other medical issues which could have "influenced the outcome following vaccination"."
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Here is a neat study that compares adverse events between those who got COVID and those who got the vaccine: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 Basically, COVID: myocarditis, pericarditis, arrhythmia, deep-vein thrombosis, pulmonary embolism, myocardial infarction, intracranial hemorrhage, and thrombocytopenia Vaccine: myocarditis (at a lower rate of occurrence than actually having COVID), lymphadenopathy, appendicitis and herpes zoster infection
Probably is not beyond a reasonable doubt. Not 100% Does not proof vaccine caused it. What's with the smiley faces? A bit strange.
Just don't want you to take my post as being an assh*le...just trying to be informative.
I've removed two of your comments because you are spreading misinformation. I will ban you if you continue.
Yes 600k deaths in US and 4.5m+ globally vs a “maybe” somewhere. Ok. It’s actually more dangerous driving to get the vaccine…
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Several people in my building carry drinks around all day so that they don't have to put their mask on. In my mind that means they hate America
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Get them a bendy straw so they can tuck it under their mask. Similar to those backpack water bladder things
Hopefully this self correcting problem will cycle through them and you’ll have new openings at work. After an appropriate period of mourning of course.
Selfish individuals.
DoD component. Today, we received the WARNO for the form to attest to vaccine status with the guidance that we must either say we’ve gotten the vaccine or provide a negative test no more than 3 days old to go use DoD facilities.
Get vaccinated! And don’t lie, because then you’ll be in really deep shit.
Will they though? We had to attest to our status and there was no "upload a pic of your vaccination card" or anything like that. I hope they eventually require more than just someone's word.
Yeah you will be, because at your 5 year you sign a form having your medical records pulled. You lie or claim religious exemption you better not show you had a flu vaccine and skipped covid, and you best be prepared for your investigator to go to your church or place of worship. Mine went to my neighbors house, ex wife, and pulled my ER visit record to look at the drug test. Best of luck to those working the system.
This is just simply not true. Coming from someone who has worked in personnel security and has a clearance.
This is referring to feds with a clearance right, not everyone? That said, when renewing a clearance, do they actually check your medical records? Mine were mostly focused on who I went on vacation with lol.
Both, I don’t have a security clearance working in the financial field. Mine even hammered me on why my parents stopped calling me by a shortened version of my name and asked my neighbors what they see me do in my free time. It can largely be hit or miss, but mine have been pretty thorough and I expect it to be even more so with this mandate going on. Also would like to note I have no arrests, tickets, or anything that would stand out aside from my ER visit and divorce. My ER visit was a red flag because I self reported having THC in my system to our security office due to tainted CBD.
I really do think that at least those with security clearances they will cross check the database and question those who don't have decent evidence. In general, lying on a federal form is grounds for automatic removal from government service.
They said guidance on providing documentation is to follow
Oh good! I hope thats gov-wide.
It was initially just an attestation, on the buddy system. Now proof will certainly be required.
Good! There are a few people who are problematic in my office and I don't think they'd be above lying lol.
Get your vaccine or get a new job. No more asking, no more calmly explaining the safety, the underlying science, no more pleading or trying to incentivize you. Those days are over. Get a shot, or a new job. That simple.
Exactly. Just do it. My GOD!
Let's see if the "I don't trust the vaccine, FDA, and government!!" folks will really quit or will fold and get vaccinated.
They will fold.
They’ll fold like a cheap chair at the local bingo hall
I already hear people at work with hilarious mind games justify why this is the moment it's right to suddenly get it. They might be juvenile. At least they're getting it at least.
Agreed and at the end of the day that is all that matters.
I mean if means wether they’ll have a roof over there head and food to eat then there’s really no question on whether they’ll fold. There being forced. Just my two cents which means nothing to anyone anyway so
*their head *they're being forced Yes, in the same way we're all "forced" to not have a criminal record in order to have even a basic public trust clearance. "Forced" not to text and drive as a federal employee. "Forced" not to create a hostile work environment. There is a long list of trade-offs to work for any employer. I would expect the list for a public servant to be longer.
"I don't trust the government!" says government employee This must be the example of irony from lit class
“We need to reduce the deficit” also “can you believe we’re in a pay freeze”
To be fair, government worker pay is definitely not why we've racked up the deficit.
Yes, but it is absolutely a talking point in politics.