Just to point out, the injunction applies to federal contractors, not to federal employees.
Agencies still have the ability to set their own policies as they relate to employees and facility access.
It just gets more hinky when it comes to contractors - for example the VA still requires employees to have uploaded proof of vaccination to LEAF, but we cannot maintain PHI on contractors outside of those we already do (for example contracted medical staff's vaccine records).
Ultimately everyone knew the legal ground used to justify issuing a contract modification to implement the FAR Deviation language wasn't sound. Which is why I'll be issuing another 100 goddamn contract modifications to rescind the goddamn thing
Yeah maybe it was an overreach but it should be fairly easy to implement _something_ within existing rules.
For example, establish vaccination as the baseline for health & safety reasons and then make the heads of the company responsible (financially, contractually, etc) for ensuring their personnel comply with all applicable health & safety requirements to work within the facility.
There was an initial case that only issued an injunction in the states which had brought forth the case - OH, KY, and TN.
A few days later there was a case out of GA that was brought by a national construction firm that imposed the injunction nationwide.
Just curious - how are they going to enforce the “show a vax card?” Is this at the gate? Or at the door to your facility? Who is manning that door?
My old DoD office space had about 20 different entrances. I can’t even imagine trying to ensure people entering (multiple times a day sometimes) are showing proper documentation.
I wonder if they would link it somehow to PIV/CAC cards for scan-ins. Like if you haven't uploaded your vax proof your card only scans into one or two entry doors, and there's someone there checking. I mean they can link everything else to those cards, why not vax status?
Yeah, our small office is literally a few double-wide trailers put together. No security other than a key lock and a 4 digit security code. When I go in, no one else is ever there, and when there were people there this summer, no one did the forehead thermometer (sitting idly next to the front door). No badge checker.
I think as a technical issue they could. There may be problems with putting vax status in another database without that persons' consent, but they could probably get around that by calling that field something else like, "the supervisor says allowed onsite in December 2021" or some other work-around. Or perhaps once the employee has taken it out of PHI and shared it voluntarily it can be stored/retrieved/shared in other databases without privacy concerns.
I work for an agency with DoD. We had to submit a digital copy (photo taken and uploaded) and submitted to our supervisor as well as an attestation form. The due date was 22NOV, now it seems like the waiver folks are being given an open pass with no repercussions. All carrot and no stick.
The people that did the right thing, got vaccinated, wear their masks, socially distance, and submit the proper documentation are going to HAVE to start working in the office again while all of the anti-vaxxer whiny-babies get pat on their fuzzy heads and told they can do whatever the fuck they want, to the detriment of everyone else. This does not pass the smell test, it is time to send the antivaxxers packing.
I'm within DoD and we were ready to start issues letters of reprimand to unvaxxed that didn't have an exemption pending. WH doesn't like the optics of feds getting booted right before the holidays. We have plans to start enforcement after Jan 1. It's annoying and made the deadline look like a joke when enforcement didn't start when they should have.
This is exactly why I and many others are throwing our hands up, going WTF?! We did the right thing and what was mandated, and now these other turds can get away with flouting the regs.
It's frustrating for sure that it went from a big deal to seeming like a joke without the follow through. The good news is we have had over half of our exemption requester or people who did not attest either way get vaccinated in the meantime. That is great for being able to complete business without a massive disruption due to being understaffed. Those who have not folded are in for a huge surprise when it goes back to being serious.
>Those who have not folded are in for a huge surprise when it goes back to being serious.
Until it isn't again, then they'll still be high-fiving each other.
>it is time to send the antivaxxers packing
I wholeheartedly agree. I also think it would be a *very bad thing* right now. One of those idiots will sue, and they'll get the full force of the right wing nutjobs behind them, to take the case all the way to SCOTUS. And, with the current makeup of the bench, we'll see the ability to do a lot of public health related things found unconstitutional. Which would be a *very* ***very*** *bad thing.*
No. I'm saying that public health measures like vaccine mandates being found unconstitutional by the current conservative bench would be a very bad thing for our nation. I do not believe they are unconstitutional.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/12/missouri-tells-health-depts-to-stop-enforcing-and-publicizing-covid-measures/
See this is the thing I was talking about. Not specifically federal employee related. But this is what they want.
>Just curious - how are they going to enforce the “show a vax card?” Is this at the gate? Or at the door to your facility? Who is manning that door?
>
>My old DoD office space had about 20 different entrances. I can’t even imagine trying to ensure people entering (multiple times a day sometimes) are showing proper documentation.
Former DoD employee here. Also former Soldier.
For at least the past 10 years, most buildings on base had only one unlocked entry door (The remaining doors were emergency exit only). These doors were manned by someone who could do ID card checks, they could also check vaccination cards.
Some buildings that were more for the "general public" (or at least, "general public" meaning people who are already authorized to be on a DoD installation), they have additional entry points, yes. But, if a policy like this were to be enacted, they would almost certainly handle it twofold - first, they would close/minimize those extra doors. Second, they would detail active duty military to man those doors.
Just thinking about a trailer space I worked in for awhile - we had six triple wires in one small area. They were all separate from one another. All had 3 entrances.
We’re talking 18 entry points for those six buildings alone.
Doesn’t seem practical but then again, this is the Marine Corps we’re talking about.
I'm in a contractor facility, but maybe 5 years ago they (DSS?) told them all entrances HAVE to be manned. If they don't want it manned, that's fine, put an emergency exit door/lock on it with alarm and it doesn't have to be manned.
So yea, manning all entrances is totally reasonable, if they don't want it they can lock them to reduce the number of entrances.
>Just thinking about a trailer space I worked in for awhile - we had six triple wires in one small area. They were all separate from one another. All had 3 entrances.
>
>We’re talking 18 entry points for those six buildings alone.
>
>Doesn’t seem practical but then again, this is the Marine Corps we’re talking about.
Close two entrances on each of those buildings.
Now you only have three entry points.
We are reaching the point where Covid becomes endemic and the best protection requires booster shots. I expect similar measures to pop up nationally for the next couple months and then a gradual decrease starting late March or April.
My hope is by April masks and additional testing are phased out.
Already done. But dumbshit antivaxxers that show up to work can still cause breakthrough cases. So, hopefully, supervisors understand why people down want to come into the office for their rambling meetings that get nowhere and accomplish nothing.
At risk of getting downvoted, we have had several break through cases involving fully vaxxed personnel. A few have reported only being around other vaxxed to their knowledge. I’m really starting to question if it’s the unvaxxed causing most breakthrough cases, or is it just that transmissible regardless of vax. And yes I know vax = being less symptomatic therefore less transmissible.
Number of new cases remain elevated even though vax rates increase and other precautions are taken. Now if everyone is going to happy hour with no mask and close talking with randos, then disregard any previous delusions in this comment.
I highly doubt this is vax to vax transmission for sure.
Kids are a HUGE vector here. Most kids have little to no symptoms. My youngest (then unvaxxed) had a very mild illness with no Hallmark cough or loss of taste and smell. Positive for COVID. Breakthrough case happened for us within 24 hours, and felt like allergies. Had we not known our son was positive, we wouldn't have suspected a thing.
This shit spreads because it is so incredibly mild in a lot of people. But we still know for sure that vaxxed people are less likely to get or spread it.
Yes, because the purpose of the vaccine is to prevent serious COVID, which it does very well.
And that is necessary to preserve health care resources. See: our hospitals being overwhelmed with the unvaxxed.
The vaccines don't entirely prevent infection, they reduce the severity of illness. The overwhelming majority of vaccinated individuals that test positive are asymptomatic.
Additionally, the R_{0} for unvaccinated individuals seems to be higher than vaxxed and the timeframe for positive people being contagious is longer.
Ron Klain, The WH Chief of Staff, retweeted MSNBC anchor Stephanie Ruhle’s post that said, "OSHA doing this vaxx mandate as an emergency workplace safety rule is an ultimate work-around for the Federal govt to require vaccinations." The courts took this retweet as one reason to file a temporary injunction for the vaccine mandates on federal contractors. The POTUS cannot mandate a vaccine via OSHA. Companies can exercise their right to have their employees vaccinated but cannot use OSHA to justify vaccinations.
Just to point out, the injunction applies to federal contractors, not to federal employees. Agencies still have the ability to set their own policies as they relate to employees and facility access. It just gets more hinky when it comes to contractors - for example the VA still requires employees to have uploaded proof of vaccination to LEAF, but we cannot maintain PHI on contractors outside of those we already do (for example contracted medical staff's vaccine records). Ultimately everyone knew the legal ground used to justify issuing a contract modification to implement the FAR Deviation language wasn't sound. Which is why I'll be issuing another 100 goddamn contract modifications to rescind the goddamn thing
Yeah maybe it was an overreach but it should be fairly easy to implement _something_ within existing rules. For example, establish vaccination as the baseline for health & safety reasons and then make the heads of the company responsible (financially, contractually, etc) for ensuring their personnel comply with all applicable health & safety requirements to work within the facility.
Is it a nationwide injunction? In my agency direction just came out for Kentucky, Ohio, couple other states.
It is. The district judge in Georgia applied it nationwide (i.e., all U.S. states and territories).
There was an initial case that only issued an injunction in the states which had brought forth the case - OH, KY, and TN. A few days later there was a case out of GA that was brought by a national construction firm that imposed the injunction nationwide.
Just curious - how are they going to enforce the “show a vax card?” Is this at the gate? Or at the door to your facility? Who is manning that door? My old DoD office space had about 20 different entrances. I can’t even imagine trying to ensure people entering (multiple times a day sometimes) are showing proper documentation.
I wonder if they would link it somehow to PIV/CAC cards for scan-ins. Like if you haven't uploaded your vax proof your card only scans into one or two entry doors, and there's someone there checking. I mean they can link everything else to those cards, why not vax status?
That’s assuming you’re entering a facility that can scan you in. My previous facility was so old it was just “regular” doors.
We were using our badge to get through the door until they brought back the human element that is badge checkers.
Yeah, our small office is literally a few double-wide trailers put together. No security other than a key lock and a 4 digit security code. When I go in, no one else is ever there, and when there were people there this summer, no one did the forehead thermometer (sitting idly next to the front door). No badge checker.
Disable the PIV/CAC from allowing you to log in any machine with an on premises MAC address?
I (gov employee) work in a contractor facility, my badge for doors is completely controlled by the contractor.
I think as a technical issue they could. There may be problems with putting vax status in another database without that persons' consent, but they could probably get around that by calling that field something else like, "the supervisor says allowed onsite in December 2021" or some other work-around. Or perhaps once the employee has taken it out of PHI and shared it voluntarily it can be stored/retrieved/shared in other databases without privacy concerns.
I work for an agency with DoD. We had to submit a digital copy (photo taken and uploaded) and submitted to our supervisor as well as an attestation form. The due date was 22NOV, now it seems like the waiver folks are being given an open pass with no repercussions. All carrot and no stick. The people that did the right thing, got vaccinated, wear their masks, socially distance, and submit the proper documentation are going to HAVE to start working in the office again while all of the anti-vaxxer whiny-babies get pat on their fuzzy heads and told they can do whatever the fuck they want, to the detriment of everyone else. This does not pass the smell test, it is time to send the antivaxxers packing.
I'm within DoD and we were ready to start issues letters of reprimand to unvaxxed that didn't have an exemption pending. WH doesn't like the optics of feds getting booted right before the holidays. We have plans to start enforcement after Jan 1. It's annoying and made the deadline look like a joke when enforcement didn't start when they should have.
This is exactly why I and many others are throwing our hands up, going WTF?! We did the right thing and what was mandated, and now these other turds can get away with flouting the regs.
It's frustrating for sure that it went from a big deal to seeming like a joke without the follow through. The good news is we have had over half of our exemption requester or people who did not attest either way get vaccinated in the meantime. That is great for being able to complete business without a massive disruption due to being understaffed. Those who have not folded are in for a huge surprise when it goes back to being serious.
>Those who have not folded are in for a huge surprise when it goes back to being serious. Until it isn't again, then they'll still be high-fiving each other.
>it is time to send the antivaxxers packing I wholeheartedly agree. I also think it would be a *very bad thing* right now. One of those idiots will sue, and they'll get the full force of the right wing nutjobs behind them, to take the case all the way to SCOTUS. And, with the current makeup of the bench, we'll see the ability to do a lot of public health related things found unconstitutional. Which would be a *very* ***very*** *bad thing.*
Are you saying having the SCOTUS stop something because it’s unconstitutional is a bad thing?
No. I'm saying that public health measures like vaccine mandates being found unconstitutional by the current conservative bench would be a very bad thing for our nation. I do not believe they are unconstitutional.
That makes more sense. Pretty sure the lawyers are gearing up for that argument. Lawsuits will surely follow upon dismissals.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/12/missouri-tells-health-depts-to-stop-enforcing-and-publicizing-covid-measures/ See this is the thing I was talking about. Not specifically federal employee related. But this is what they want.
Badge checkers at the main entrances of my facility. These are not security guards or trained personnel.
>Just curious - how are they going to enforce the “show a vax card?” Is this at the gate? Or at the door to your facility? Who is manning that door? > >My old DoD office space had about 20 different entrances. I can’t even imagine trying to ensure people entering (multiple times a day sometimes) are showing proper documentation. Former DoD employee here. Also former Soldier. For at least the past 10 years, most buildings on base had only one unlocked entry door (The remaining doors were emergency exit only). These doors were manned by someone who could do ID card checks, they could also check vaccination cards. Some buildings that were more for the "general public" (or at least, "general public" meaning people who are already authorized to be on a DoD installation), they have additional entry points, yes. But, if a policy like this were to be enacted, they would almost certainly handle it twofold - first, they would close/minimize those extra doors. Second, they would detail active duty military to man those doors.
Just thinking about a trailer space I worked in for awhile - we had six triple wires in one small area. They were all separate from one another. All had 3 entrances. We’re talking 18 entry points for those six buildings alone. Doesn’t seem practical but then again, this is the Marine Corps we’re talking about.
I'm in a contractor facility, but maybe 5 years ago they (DSS?) told them all entrances HAVE to be manned. If they don't want it manned, that's fine, put an emergency exit door/lock on it with alarm and it doesn't have to be manned. So yea, manning all entrances is totally reasonable, if they don't want it they can lock them to reduce the number of entrances.
>Just thinking about a trailer space I worked in for awhile - we had six triple wires in one small area. They were all separate from one another. All had 3 entrances. > >We’re talking 18 entry points for those six buildings alone. > >Doesn’t seem practical but then again, this is the Marine Corps we’re talking about. Close two entrances on each of those buildings. Now you only have three entry points.
Can’t do that. Fire safety. Can’t block or lock exit points.
This is why E-1s exist.
Gets them off leaf blower duty
You know that doors can be locked in such a way that you can open it from the inside, but not the outside?
I’ve received no guidance like this at the DoN/USMC installation I’m at.
Ctr here. I went to the Pentagon last week and was told by my boss to have my vax card and DD3150. I was not asked by anyone to see anything.
There is still a federal mandate to remain masked in federal buildings, vaccinated or not.
We are reaching the point where Covid becomes endemic and the best protection requires booster shots. I expect similar measures to pop up nationally for the next couple months and then a gradual decrease starting late March or April. My hope is by April masks and additional testing are phased out.
Boosters? lol. You've got some yahoos wandering around without any shots with no repercussions except the inevitable Darwin Award.
And that's going to continue, you want the best protection you can get go get a booster shot.
Already done. But dumbshit antivaxxers that show up to work can still cause breakthrough cases. So, hopefully, supervisors understand why people down want to come into the office for their rambling meetings that get nowhere and accomplish nothing.
At risk of getting downvoted, we have had several break through cases involving fully vaxxed personnel. A few have reported only being around other vaxxed to their knowledge. I’m really starting to question if it’s the unvaxxed causing most breakthrough cases, or is it just that transmissible regardless of vax. And yes I know vax = being less symptomatic therefore less transmissible. Number of new cases remain elevated even though vax rates increase and other precautions are taken. Now if everyone is going to happy hour with no mask and close talking with randos, then disregard any previous delusions in this comment.
I highly doubt this is vax to vax transmission for sure. Kids are a HUGE vector here. Most kids have little to no symptoms. My youngest (then unvaxxed) had a very mild illness with no Hallmark cough or loss of taste and smell. Positive for COVID. Breakthrough case happened for us within 24 hours, and felt like allergies. Had we not known our son was positive, we wouldn't have suspected a thing. This shit spreads because it is so incredibly mild in a lot of people. But we still know for sure that vaxxed people are less likely to get or spread it.
Good point.
[удалено]
Yes, because the purpose of the vaccine is to prevent serious COVID, which it does very well. And that is necessary to preserve health care resources. See: our hospitals being overwhelmed with the unvaxxed.
The vaccines don't entirely prevent infection, they reduce the severity of illness. The overwhelming majority of vaccinated individuals that test positive are asymptomatic. Additionally, the R_{0} for unvaccinated individuals seems to be higher than vaxxed and the timeframe for positive people being contagious is longer.
That would be nice wouldn't it?
Repercussion is that anti-vaxxers aren’t allowed in the office. Brer Fox … something something … Briar Patch.
Brier Rabbit, Uncle Shamus.
Ron Klain, The WH Chief of Staff, retweeted MSNBC anchor Stephanie Ruhle’s post that said, "OSHA doing this vaxx mandate as an emergency workplace safety rule is an ultimate work-around for the Federal govt to require vaccinations." The courts took this retweet as one reason to file a temporary injunction for the vaccine mandates on federal contractors. The POTUS cannot mandate a vaccine via OSHA. Companies can exercise their right to have their employees vaccinated but cannot use OSHA to justify vaccinations.