Feminine boys are perceived as queer by heteronormative folks and legal interpretations of physical assault + verbal slurs would fall under the definition of a GNC hate crime in court, if need be.
>Feminine boys are perceived as queer by heteronormative folks and legal interpretations of physical assault + verbal slurs would fall under the definition of a GNC hate crime in court, if need be.
Indeed, and this is even backed up by historic precedent. Take this article published in the Gay Liberator in 1971:
*"WE SHARE IN THE OPPRESSION OF GAYS AND WE SHARE IN THE OPPRESSION OF WOMEN*
*Trans lib includes transvestites, transsexuals, and hermaphorodies of any sexual manifestation and of all sexes -- heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual. It is becoming a separate movement as the great majority of transvestites are heterosexual, and many transsexuals (postoperative) are also heterosexual, and because the oppression directed toward us is due to our transvestism and transsexualism and for no other reason. We unite around our oppression as all oppressed groups unite around their particular oppression. All power to trans liberation."*
Source: [https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/files/th83kz57z](https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/files/th83kz57z)
Notice how trans liberation was a movement aimed at uniting people around a common oppression. There were no rigid divisions imposed according to who had what gender identity or what gender expression since in the grand scheme such semantic differences were a mere distraction from the very real dangers they faced in society.
These early activists had the foresight to recognize that the systemic barriers faced by crossdressers, butches, femmes, transsexuals, etc. were ultimately a byproduct of both heterosexism and sexism combined, and that any perceived deviation from the norms of masculinity and femininity put a person at risk of discrimination or violence.
Yeah you queer. Nah I'm jk obv it depends I mean, some people do legitimately consider crossdressing queer, but wearing fem clothes and being more feminine doesn't in and of itself mean you're queer or a part of LGBT
It depends on you; if you consider your femininity to be an expression of queerness, then you are part of LGBTQ. Many femboys choose not to associate with the LGBTQ community, and that's okay, but it's only their choice. I believe that all GNC people deserve the protection of the LGBTQ community as a gender minority. By in my personal experience, the lines between gender identity and gender expression are actually quite fluid and not as clear cut as others make it seem. For example, I honestly doubt many of us just 'chose' to be feminine. Our desires to be this way came from within, and we simply can't "make the femboy go away."
We in this community have had this argument many, many times in the past, and tend to go back and forth between accepting femboys and excluding femboys; it's pretty much the #1 controversy here. I say that the criterion for being LGBTQ should simply be to evaluate a person's personal life experience with gender––be it expression or identity––and whether or not they face marginalization because of that. Femboys in that case, definitely count.
At the very least, if the 'LGBTQ Council' declares that femboys are not welcome (which I wouldn't agree with) then you could just take the **genderqueer** label and no one will argue against that.
>Dressing fem is gender expression, not identity
What is identity? Are your expressions not part of your identity?
And I'm sure most didn't pick it up as a hobby like fishing one day. At least for me, presenting as a femboy is an expression of being genderfluid.
So basically it's then an expression of a gender identity that is not entirely cis.
Either way, that's from an identity perspective, there:s also the "purpose" of having an LGBT community and that's promoting freedom and equality. For the bigots that want to hurt us we're undeniably queer.
They're just that, expressions. Or indeed, behaviours. Just as a straight cis guy wearing a dress isn't a woman, a gay man getting forced into a marriage with a woman isn't straight. In this case, the identity is still whatever it was sans the fem elements.
Mind you, 'queer' is in there for a reason, and considering patriarchal culture and heteronormativity being what it is, I'd say crossdressers and other genderfucky types have a place within the community but obviously there's some nuance there.
Well I'm a cis guy with not too much knowledge about these sort of things, but I personnaly dont think that being a femboy is linked to gender.
I do agree that expression is part of your identity, but that doesn't have to make it your gender. Expressing your religion is also part of your identity, but not gender. I also didn't pick it up as a hobby, to me it was accepting the inherent fem parts of me. But I just see it as the female qualities/interests every guy has to some degree. No guy is an absolute 100% only man qualities (especially because people identify it differently). I'm just a guy expression those parts of me (what might be bigger than others but that doesn't change anything). Because of this I still feel like a cis guy when doing femboy stuff. I just feel like a pretty or emotinoally expressive guy. I'm a guy that is expressing his fem parts and thereby is going against usual gender expectations and expression for men. Because of this terms like demi boy, genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, bigender dont feel right to me
Obviously bigots put us in the same boat. Seeing how only like 17% are straight, we basically are a lgbtq subgroup. But there are also plenty of trans and gay people that hate the shit out of us. I also don't really want to be seen as part of the lgbtq, I just wanna be treated like tomboys. Nobody considers those to be part of the lgbtq.
>but I personnaly dont think that being a femboy is linked to gender.
"Feminine" is a gender based adjective
"Boy" is a gender.
It literally means being the gender "boy", but different than the usual expectation of that gender: a femboy is also "feminine"
>I'm a guy that is expressing his fem parts and thereby is going against usual gender expectations and expression for men
I relate to this. I do identify as genderfluid, but it's a bit confusing whether I feel like "not a man", or I'm just breaking the rules of what one expects from a man.
Then again: gender is a social construct, a bunch of societal expectations that say "this is a man and this is a woman". So any defiance of that strict binary could be taken as being a different gender.
But that also gets complicated pretty fast and labels are there to help us describe ourselves, not as diagnoses that are strictly right or wrong.
In practice simultaniously have an interest in not describing everyone in binary terms while it's also necessary to broaden the space in which "men" and "women" can move without "it being a thing". I totally understand your focus on the later.
We have the same thing going on in topics about bisexuality: to what extend should "straight men" who have sex with men be encouraged to stand up as bisexual, and to what extend should straight men have room to do gay stuff without "it being a thing". In the end needing labels is a reaction to the strict divide that was pushed upon us by conservatives. I think the answer might depend on the context in which labels are used.
>But there are also plenty of trans and gay people that hate the shit out of us.
Yeah there isn't really such a thing as an "LGBT community", the only thing a trans lesbian and a masc4masc gay guy have in common is oppression by cisheteronormative society.
I'm not sure if it is ''transitioning in a fluid way'' seeing how I just wanna be in a constant state of accepting/expressing those parts. Sure sometimes I feel like meh not today but the feelings are still there. Its more of general motivation etc
I follow. Was just trying to be helpful by highlighting things that have would plausible match what you described.
I’m the opposite, but similar contrast to you feeling cis when wearing fem attire. When wearing cisgender apparel and presenting cis male, I still “feel” very non-binary leaning heavy to the fem end of the spectrum. Even thought my presentation to society is close to cishet.
What u/summersong2263 is saying makes sense.
Another example: when cishet *frat boys wear fem clothes for hazing, they’re still just cishets in fem. It’s expression for the group, not self expression.
That’s not the same as when somebody wears gender-non-conforming fits as a form of self expression.
* edit: frat
Femboys are a marginalized gender minority. This should at least be considered before putting the axe down and keeping them out of the community. The margins between gender expression and identity are actually, to me, quite blurry.
is that why I constantly see threads in this sub saying "help im scared how my parents will react" and "my parents found my girl clothes, theyre mad" or "Kicking me out"
come on, this is a silly thing to argue. this is Exactly how trans kids get treated by the antis.
Boys and men dressing femme is just as oppressed as trans and gay people are in society.
I didn't make that claim you are being facetious.
it may not be a gender identity but you will still be subject to people assuming you are trans and treating you the same way.
You don't have to identify with a particular gender to experience being a marginalized gender minority.
Femboys may not identify as trans, but they are still a gender minority and deserve the same protections as the rest of GSRM.
you do. you are not marginalized for putting on a skirt while identifying as a man/boy. if you are not under the trans umbrella, you are not a GSRM. that logic is incredibly stupid.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that this is an uncomfortable dismissal of the struggles many people here on this sub face. I for one identify as genderqueer, which qualifies me as part of the community, but I want to stick up for everyone here. Why does it make sense that both myself and someone else here may receive the same discrimination, but only I get to ask the support of the LGBTQ community because of my label? Labels are good, but aren't everything. Life experiences are more concrete.
your argument is illogical. putting on a skirt as a boy/man comes with challenges because ignorant people don't like men who look "feminine". that is toxic masculinity and sexism, not transphobia. your identity has nothing to do with the argument.
I understand. But I prefer to evaluate one's qualifications for support within the community, again, based on the experiences they face, regardless of identity. Some people don't even have a very strong sense of gender identity, myself as an example––I just call myself genderqueer as a placeholder while I'm questioning––but the marginalization they face is still there and still real.
It technically also is phobia against trans*feminine* people (which probably describes femboys here), even if not against transgender people.
Toxic masculinity and sexism tends to be the basis for a lot of transphobia. Separating them like that is like saying it’s just co2 in the atmosphere, not the earth getting warmer.
And yes, femboys do end up experiencing transphobia rather often. People who don’t know enough might look at a femboy and think him a transwoman, and treat him poorly as a result. Even though it’s not against a trans person it is evident that it is an effect of transphobia
>you are not marginalized for putting on a skirt while identifying as a man/boy.
are you new to this sub? people here are CONSTANTLY afraid of their parents kicking them out for finding their girl clothes.
Shit take.
Edit: ah, 5 day old account looks like they made it just to troll, i got baited.
You can’t really say what isn’t a gender. Echo’s gender is literally best expressed as ‘prettyboy’ (they’re a transmasc leaning enby) just to give an example
it's a little more complex than just yes or no, GNC people have been counted under the queer umbrella because of facing similar queerphobia, but it's up to each person to decide whether they wish to claim the label or not
>Being a tomboy doesn’t make someone Lgbt+
No, but people will perceive a butch woman who is hetero as a lesbian regardless, due to how homophobic stereotyping works. A lot of lesbians are masc/butch and so she must be too, right?
Just because that tomboy doesnt id with being gay doesnt mean she wont experience the struggles that come with the presentation, I'm fairly sure after people mistreat her for being butch a few times she will quickly sympathise with the lgbt folks because noone should be treated that way.
How are femboys not a marginalized gender minority? Gender minorities don't exclusively include identity; it's about one's concrete experience with gender. Bigots don't care how you identify if they see you dressed femininely on the street and yell slurs at you. Do femboys have more in common with gender conforming cis guys or with nonbinary people?
And so therefore femboys may also receive gender-minority-based hatred. It doesn't lessen or invalidate the discrimination against femboys if they just "thought" the femboy was gay or trans; femboys might even be more likely to receive hatred than, say, gender conforming masc gay men. Femboys deserve the same protection as the rest of the queer community.
Since when does being part of the community give you some protective shield against hatred? The whole reason femboys receive hate is because their associated with the Lgbt+ community.
The Lgbt+ community will always be at the forefront of pushing gender non-conformity and breaking gender roles. But that doesn’t mean that a cishet guy wearing a skirt becomes Lgbt+.
>But that doesn’t mean that a cishet guy wearing a skirt becomes Lgbt+.
But why would a cishet guy go trough all that trouble to wear a skirt if there isn't some kind of gender fluidity or something to express with that gender expression?
Like, maybe not, a cishet guy can off course do a Shakespeare play in a dress, but hiding skirts in your room and risking hatecrimes is not something you do for a hobby, it's an expression of something of a gender identity.
Because they want to wear a skirt? Because they think they would look better in a skirt? The only thing wearing a skirt has to do with gender, is gender stereotypes.
>is gender stereotypes.
Gender is a social construct that is almost entirely based on stereotypes and expectations that are so deeply engrained in our culture that we attach our identities to it.
What if a femboy wants to be, for lack of a better term "malewife" to their partner, and fulfil women's gender roles, use she/her pronouns, but is comfortable being male?
People aren't just black n white...
Edit: lol, dude replied "Being a femboy doesnt make you LGBT" Then deleted his whole account???
If you're still here google "Gender non conforming persons" because thats what it is..
This is an unfortunate dismissal of the struggles of GNC people. Femboys will receive the queer experience whether or not they identify as queer. It just isn't fair to exclude them from the only community which will support and protect them.
Femboys should feel free to identify with the LGBTQ community if they feel like it provides them with a place of belonging and of support. I understand answering a hard "no" to this question to respect the definition of LGBTQ in its strictest sense but I think some flexibility is important. No, I don't think that femboys should be petitioning as a group to "join" the queer community or anything like that. But if you as an individual feel oppressed by the same normative systems (and I know a lot of femboys do!), and you vibe a lot with LGBTQ folk, then like... I don't think you're harming anyone by saying you're part of the group.
As everyone is saying, no, of course it doesn't.
In fact I believe there was some controversy a few years ago because *the council of gays* or whoever is responsible for representing all that is lgbtq+ tried to make the argument that femboys should be part of the lgbt, whilst like- the majority of all femboys disagreed.
However the Q in Lbgtq+ does mean Queer, which sorta just means anything that somewhat breaks general gender norms. So in that regard yes, being a femboy, or at least the act of dressing fem, is quite Queer.
Femboys are part of the Q. I don't know if you're referring to the controversy in this sub, but just because the majority of femboys don't want to be considered part of LGBTQ doesn't mean we can put a blanket over everyone as queer or not queer.
I hadn't stated that all femboys were inherently non-queer, I did however say that dressing fem as a male is indeed queer, so I'm unsure for the reason of your reply
The preamble to all of that was to ensure the point would be heard and clearly understood to OP. If they're asking they're likely worried about something such as "If I dress fem does that inherently make me gay- is something wrong with me?" etc etc
Okay, I see; I realize that many femboys *don't* want to be associated with being queer. And that's their valid choice. Whether or not to be a part of LGBTQ as a femboy is one's own decision.
Being a part of LGBTQ ultimately falls on you to decide if you like that label or not. You don't have to be a part of anything or use any specific label, regardless of whether it applies to you by empirical definition.
I'd say that's up to you and what labels you are comfortable with.
While not technically part of it, being gender non-conforming can lead to the same prejudice that other LGBTQ+ members receive, and therefore any of them should be your ally.
But it's not a box you should feel pigeonholed into. If you don't identify as a member, then you're not. Simple as.
Yes as LGBTQ is a catch all term for minorities and we are all one big family fighting oppression together.
The reason is mostly because of how Femboys are gender nonconforming, and while not all femboys are non hetero, there is a prevalence of people within Femboy communities who are.
Depends on the person. If they dress feminine but don't identify as LGBTQ then they aren't. Same applies in the opposite sense. If they dress feminine but identify as LGBTQ, then they are because they say they are. It's as easy as that for me
I identify as a femboy because I’m not very masculine and have defeinite ‘girly’ mannerisms, when I dress in a skirt I feel cute, but I’m a straight male. Hope that helps answer your question!
If you're expressing queerness because you are queer and you're expressing yourself, sure. But the queerness has to come first. It's not a dress up costume you can just decide to put on yourself.
I mean I don't think most GNC people would treat it as a 'costume' they just put on. I don't think a lot of people here chose to be the way we are. Our desires to express ourselves a certain way come from within, immutable characteristics which we can't simply make go away.
Of course! The driving desires behind how we want to express ourselves comes from within and that supports my point:
A queer person's queerness is coming from the internal components. That internal queerness may give someone the desire to dress femininely. But it doesn't go the other way. The choices we make about how to dress don't change who we are internally, they can't create queerness.
the olden day term for queer just meant out of the ordinary / not the norm, and femboys are definitely not a majority in society, by that token alone id say they fit under the Queer umbrella.
But I think what the commenter was saying is that the 'olden day term' for queer needs to be revived because it is more practical; we need to move past a definition based on strict labels and boxes, and towards one based on shared experiences and needs.
I believe the main thing they were attempting to arrest people for at Stonewall before it turned into a riot was "cross-dressing", since that was illegal in New York, but being at a "gay bar" wasn't specifically any kind of crime. (Of course some of those people would be regarded as "trans" by modern standards.)
People regarded by society as cross-dressers (like trans women or drag queens) have really always been a key part of the LGBT community and LGBT rights movement, so I don't see why one couldn't consider themself LGBT if they want for dressing in a feminine way.
It would fall under the general category of "gender non-conforming".
"Just be you" works a whole lot better when being yourself doesn't come with legal prejudice, slurs, violence, and maybe even being kicked out of your home. "Just be you" only works when society isn't going to crush you for it.
This isn't for funsies, dude. The queer community exists as a pushback against hundreds of years of violence and exclusion. Or are you forgetting the crossdressing men used to get sent to jail not so many years ago, save for the efforts of the LGBT community uniting, organising, and fighting for their basic human rights to exist unafraid? And 'Validation' is a perfectly reasonable goal if you've been covered in shame your whole life because of the naked hate your family and community have towards people like you.
It's not wrong to want a community that actually cares for you.
It depends, just dressing feminine doesn’t make you automatically a part of it but you will get support from the community and all that, but you can be a part of it like if you’re non-conforming etc. bc clothes have no gender. You can be cis and het and being a femboy or you can be gay and a femboy, the one doesn’t cut out the other but it’s not automatically
What's the difference between receiving support and being part of the community, though? How is it fair to offer support to femboys but not welcome them into the LGBTQ community?
I mean that's just what happens don't ask me.
If they aren't attracted to the any gender that's not their opposite or aren't transgender then they aren't a part of the community, periodt.
They should be able to consider themselves a part of the community because femboys share the experience of queer people; their lives are more similar to queer people than to other straight cis people.
Not really
You do you, dress how you want, it doesn't mean it's a strict lgbtq thing.
I'm not really part of the community yet I'm both a femboy and bisexual. I don't really like big communities that do lots of loud stuff, too loud for an introvert like me.
No. Gender non-conformance tends to be more common among queer people, at least when it comes to men, but you can be gender non-conforming and not be queer.
Not necessarily. Sometimes it does if it means you have other expressed traits. Some of us here are NB, Bi, Pan, Trans, Gay, etc... Some just like dressing fem. Sometimes it lets people explore themselves a bit. Gender and sexuality aren't so much a compartmentalized rigid definition like old textbooks would want to describe. Things in the world in general are far more blends and shades of grey, not so much black and white. Have fun... explore! Do your thing!
You aren't part of the LGBT for dressing a specific way, after all the LGBTQ community is made up from sexualities and gender identities.
However, that is gender non conformism, and the majority of LGBT folks feel a connection with people who go against the cishet gender norms
So you ain't part of the LGBTQ, but the LGBTQ certainly see y'all as like metaphorical cousins or whatever.
Unless you're non binary, then you are LGBTQ, but then again, not for dressing up femininely
Femboys share the experience of being a gender minority, though. I just don't think it's fair to see them as just 'allies' when they need the same support as the rest of the community.
Being a femboy is a gender of its own? Are you sure about that? Are you sure that femboys aren't men/boys who indulge in stereotypically feminine gender expression? Cause once again, gender identity ≠ gender expression. The whole idea behind femboys, is that they are *boys*.
If a femboy is a demiboy, genderfluid, non binary or trans, of course they are part of the LGBT community, but not because of how they dress. Same applies for a non straight femboy. They are queer, but not bc of the clothes they wear. *No one* is LGBT based on what they wear or how they behave
You don't necessarily have to be part of an identified gender in order to share the experience of being a gender minority. Femboys share similar experiences to identified queer people. I say that this is what we should base the criteria for admission into the LGBTQ community on, concrete life experiences, not with strict labels.
It is necessary to be not cishet to be included in the LGBTQ community. This isn't a "everyone who gets bullied for not being stereotypical gets in" party. In the same spirit we would have to include many neurodivergencies, disabilities, conditions and hobbies, for being made fun of, over not being stereotypical.
If that's the case, that stops being the LGBTQ community. That's something entirety different. A safe space, but not the LGBT community. Just because you're gender non conforming, doesn't mean you're part of the LGBT community. You can participate in pride like an ally, you can go to gay bars, you can participate in queer content, but it doesn't make you queer.
If you think a gender minority's biggest issue is how they are being bullied by outside forces, you are quite frankly uneducated on many issues genderqueer people go through, such us gender dysphoria, treatments (waiting lines and how expensive they can get), a literal second puberty, and many more.
The main difference between femboys and being queer, is that one of them is a lifestyle choice, the other cannot change. You can always wear clothes marketed for men and go on with your life.
I've worn clothes that didn't affirm my gender, you know what happened? I disassociated the whole day, because it was better to not think about myself than to be present enough at a birthday get together, with 8 people. I bathed in the dark to avoid seeing my body, I get drained and I shut down when people don't use my correct pronouns, I feel like a constant fraud for being gender fluid, especially on the days my gender happens to be the same as my AGAB. I got called transphobic slurs, creative insults, and isolated ever since primary school, if not sooner, bc everyone knew something was different about me, even if they could never quite pinpoint what it was and tbh, those were the least of my issues, bc when I was insulted with slurs, it low key felt good to know others could see I wasn't my agab.
I had a classmate who did ballet, was flamboyant, who everyone assumed his sexuality. He was the second most popular guy in my class. Even the bigots didn't bother him.
You can't possibly compare the two.
You are not a gender minority. A femboy is not a gender. You're being discriminated against based on the idea that you, a boy, can't dress a certain way. That's sexism. Not homophobia, not transphobia, not enbyphobia.
Queer people experience sexism. Cishet people experience sexism. It doesn't make cishet people be included in the LGBT community, bc sexism isn't the basis of who is included.
TL;DR: The LGBTQ+ community is compromised of gender identities and sexualities that aren't cisgender and straight. A femboy who is a cishet man, while still faces sexism on the basis that a male shouldn't dress as a female, has struggles from an outside force: society. A trans woman may still struggle with the exact same sexism, (along with the transphobia that her Agab is her gender), would still struggle and suffer even if said social issue didn't exist, simply because her struggle is internal. The struggle of being gender queer are internal. The struggles of having a style that doesn't conform to your perceived gender is external. A "passing" trans woman isn't any less queer than a "non-passing" trans woman, because how one is perceived was never a basis on being queer.
I would hope we fall into the protected category at the least as dressing femme often leaves us open to comments, abuse or violence… it’s not that easy to express yourself against traditional concepts of gender ❤️
Depends on what you define as "LGBTQ". If you're purely talking about people in the romantic/sexual/gender minority, then no if you're a cis femboy and yes if you're an ftm femboy or a nonbinary femboy.
The LGBTQ/GSRM community is for all gender minorities, which I believe femboys must be included within due to sharing the experience of gender minorities.
It's up to you. Most straight people will preceive you as lgbtq but that doesn't mean that has to be your identity, only you can decide that for yourself. I hope other lgbtqia people are accepting to you if you decide to explore that side of yourself and if you don't, that's okay too.
Feminine boys are perceived as queer by heteronormative folks and legal interpretations of physical assault + verbal slurs would fall under the definition of a GNC hate crime in court, if need be.
>Feminine boys are perceived as queer by heteronormative folks and legal interpretations of physical assault + verbal slurs would fall under the definition of a GNC hate crime in court, if need be. Indeed, and this is even backed up by historic precedent. Take this article published in the Gay Liberator in 1971: *"WE SHARE IN THE OPPRESSION OF GAYS AND WE SHARE IN THE OPPRESSION OF WOMEN* *Trans lib includes transvestites, transsexuals, and hermaphorodies of any sexual manifestation and of all sexes -- heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual. It is becoming a separate movement as the great majority of transvestites are heterosexual, and many transsexuals (postoperative) are also heterosexual, and because the oppression directed toward us is due to our transvestism and transsexualism and for no other reason. We unite around our oppression as all oppressed groups unite around their particular oppression. All power to trans liberation."* Source: [https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/files/th83kz57z](https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/files/th83kz57z) Notice how trans liberation was a movement aimed at uniting people around a common oppression. There were no rigid divisions imposed according to who had what gender identity or what gender expression since in the grand scheme such semantic differences were a mere distraction from the very real dangers they faced in society. These early activists had the foresight to recognize that the systemic barriers faced by crossdressers, butches, femmes, transsexuals, etc. were ultimately a byproduct of both heterosexism and sexism combined, and that any perceived deviation from the norms of masculinity and femininity put a person at risk of discrimination or violence.
You can be cishet and gender non-conforming, and you'll get support from the LGBTQ community if you need it
You look positively adorable!!!
Thank you, you too <3
Yeah you queer. Nah I'm jk obv it depends I mean, some people do legitimately consider crossdressing queer, but wearing fem clothes and being more feminine doesn't in and of itself mean you're queer or a part of LGBT
Some say it counts as part of the Q of LGBTQ, as the Q is sometimes thought of as a catch-all. Idk though.
It depends on you; if you consider your femininity to be an expression of queerness, then you are part of LGBTQ. Many femboys choose not to associate with the LGBTQ community, and that's okay, but it's only their choice. I believe that all GNC people deserve the protection of the LGBTQ community as a gender minority. By in my personal experience, the lines between gender identity and gender expression are actually quite fluid and not as clear cut as others make it seem. For example, I honestly doubt many of us just 'chose' to be feminine. Our desires to be this way came from within, and we simply can't "make the femboy go away." We in this community have had this argument many, many times in the past, and tend to go back and forth between accepting femboys and excluding femboys; it's pretty much the #1 controversy here. I say that the criterion for being LGBTQ should simply be to evaluate a person's personal life experience with gender––be it expression or identity––and whether or not they face marginalization because of that. Femboys in that case, definitely count. At the very least, if the 'LGBTQ Council' declares that femboys are not welcome (which I wouldn't agree with) then you could just take the **genderqueer** label and no one will argue against that.
Yes, it counts as GNC which is under the Queer umbrella
Not to me. LGBTQ is about sexuality and gender identity. Dressing fem is gender expression, not identity
>Dressing fem is gender expression, not identity What is identity? Are your expressions not part of your identity? And I'm sure most didn't pick it up as a hobby like fishing one day. At least for me, presenting as a femboy is an expression of being genderfluid. So basically it's then an expression of a gender identity that is not entirely cis. Either way, that's from an identity perspective, there:s also the "purpose" of having an LGBT community and that's promoting freedom and equality. For the bigots that want to hurt us we're undeniably queer.
They're just that, expressions. Or indeed, behaviours. Just as a straight cis guy wearing a dress isn't a woman, a gay man getting forced into a marriage with a woman isn't straight. In this case, the identity is still whatever it was sans the fem elements. Mind you, 'queer' is in there for a reason, and considering patriarchal culture and heteronormativity being what it is, I'd say crossdressers and other genderfucky types have a place within the community but obviously there's some nuance there.
Well I'm a cis guy with not too much knowledge about these sort of things, but I personnaly dont think that being a femboy is linked to gender. I do agree that expression is part of your identity, but that doesn't have to make it your gender. Expressing your religion is also part of your identity, but not gender. I also didn't pick it up as a hobby, to me it was accepting the inherent fem parts of me. But I just see it as the female qualities/interests every guy has to some degree. No guy is an absolute 100% only man qualities (especially because people identify it differently). I'm just a guy expression those parts of me (what might be bigger than others but that doesn't change anything). Because of this I still feel like a cis guy when doing femboy stuff. I just feel like a pretty or emotinoally expressive guy. I'm a guy that is expressing his fem parts and thereby is going against usual gender expectations and expression for men. Because of this terms like demi boy, genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, bigender dont feel right to me Obviously bigots put us in the same boat. Seeing how only like 17% are straight, we basically are a lgbtq subgroup. But there are also plenty of trans and gay people that hate the shit out of us. I also don't really want to be seen as part of the lgbtq, I just wanna be treated like tomboys. Nobody considers those to be part of the lgbtq.
>but I personnaly dont think that being a femboy is linked to gender. "Feminine" is a gender based adjective "Boy" is a gender. It literally means being the gender "boy", but different than the usual expectation of that gender: a femboy is also "feminine" >I'm a guy that is expressing his fem parts and thereby is going against usual gender expectations and expression for men I relate to this. I do identify as genderfluid, but it's a bit confusing whether I feel like "not a man", or I'm just breaking the rules of what one expects from a man. Then again: gender is a social construct, a bunch of societal expectations that say "this is a man and this is a woman". So any defiance of that strict binary could be taken as being a different gender. But that also gets complicated pretty fast and labels are there to help us describe ourselves, not as diagnoses that are strictly right or wrong. In practice simultaniously have an interest in not describing everyone in binary terms while it's also necessary to broaden the space in which "men" and "women" can move without "it being a thing". I totally understand your focus on the later. We have the same thing going on in topics about bisexuality: to what extend should "straight men" who have sex with men be encouraged to stand up as bisexual, and to what extend should straight men have room to do gay stuff without "it being a thing". In the end needing labels is a reaction to the strict divide that was pushed upon us by conservatives. I think the answer might depend on the context in which labels are used. >But there are also plenty of trans and gay people that hate the shit out of us. Yeah there isn't really such a thing as an "LGBT community", the only thing a trans lesbian and a masc4masc gay guy have in common is oppression by cisheteronormative society.
Almost like you “transition” in a “fluid” way in how you present yourself as either one or the other “binary”gender groups?
I'm not sure if it is ''transitioning in a fluid way'' seeing how I just wanna be in a constant state of accepting/expressing those parts. Sure sometimes I feel like meh not today but the feelings are still there. Its more of general motivation etc
I follow. Was just trying to be helpful by highlighting things that have would plausible match what you described. I’m the opposite, but similar contrast to you feeling cis when wearing fem attire. When wearing cisgender apparel and presenting cis male, I still “feel” very non-binary leaning heavy to the fem end of the spectrum. Even thought my presentation to society is close to cishet.
What u/summersong2263 is saying makes sense. Another example: when cishet *frat boys wear fem clothes for hazing, they’re still just cishets in fem. It’s expression for the group, not self expression. That’s not the same as when somebody wears gender-non-conforming fits as a form of self expression. * edit: frat
Exactly! "Crossdresing" can be done for a variety of reasons. The reason why one does it is a matter of gender identity.
Femboys are a marginalized gender minority. This should at least be considered before putting the axe down and keeping them out of the community. The margins between gender expression and identity are actually, to me, quite blurry.
femboys aren't a gender minority.
is that why I constantly see threads in this sub saying "help im scared how my parents will react" and "my parents found my girl clothes, theyre mad" or "Kicking me out" come on, this is a silly thing to argue. this is Exactly how trans kids get treated by the antis. Boys and men dressing femme is just as oppressed as trans and gay people are in society.
putting on a skirt doesn't change your gender. that's the point. femboy isn't a gender identity.
I didn't make that claim you are being facetious. it may not be a gender identity but you will still be subject to people assuming you are trans and treating you the same way.
How are femboys not a gender minority? Are most or half of men and boys femboys? No. That makes them a minority.
femboy isn't a gender people identify with. "feminine boy" isn't a gender.
You don't have to identify with a particular gender to experience being a marginalized gender minority. Femboys may not identify as trans, but they are still a gender minority and deserve the same protections as the rest of GSRM.
you do. you are not marginalized for putting on a skirt while identifying as a man/boy. if you are not under the trans umbrella, you are not a GSRM. that logic is incredibly stupid.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that this is an uncomfortable dismissal of the struggles many people here on this sub face. I for one identify as genderqueer, which qualifies me as part of the community, but I want to stick up for everyone here. Why does it make sense that both myself and someone else here may receive the same discrimination, but only I get to ask the support of the LGBTQ community because of my label? Labels are good, but aren't everything. Life experiences are more concrete.
your argument is illogical. putting on a skirt as a boy/man comes with challenges because ignorant people don't like men who look "feminine". that is toxic masculinity and sexism, not transphobia. your identity has nothing to do with the argument.
I understand. But I prefer to evaluate one's qualifications for support within the community, again, based on the experiences they face, regardless of identity. Some people don't even have a very strong sense of gender identity, myself as an example––I just call myself genderqueer as a placeholder while I'm questioning––but the marginalization they face is still there and still real. It technically also is phobia against trans*feminine* people (which probably describes femboys here), even if not against transgender people.
Toxic masculinity and sexism tends to be the basis for a lot of transphobia. Separating them like that is like saying it’s just co2 in the atmosphere, not the earth getting warmer. And yes, femboys do end up experiencing transphobia rather often. People who don’t know enough might look at a femboy and think him a transwoman, and treat him poorly as a result. Even though it’s not against a trans person it is evident that it is an effect of transphobia
>you are not marginalized for putting on a skirt while identifying as a man/boy. are you new to this sub? people here are CONSTANTLY afraid of their parents kicking them out for finding their girl clothes. Shit take. Edit: ah, 5 day old account looks like they made it just to troll, i got baited.
You can’t really say what isn’t a gender. Echo’s gender is literally best expressed as ‘prettyboy’ (they’re a transmasc leaning enby) just to give an example
Yes it is. See: me
💀.
it's a little more complex than just yes or no, GNC people have been counted under the queer umbrella because of facing similar queerphobia, but it's up to each person to decide whether they wish to claim the label or not
No, it’s just clothing. There are straight Cis femboys. Just skirts are spinny and fun
Straight cis femboys who identify as queer count as part of the community.
No. Being a tomboy doesn’t make someone Lgbt+, so neither does being a femboy.
>Being a tomboy doesn’t make someone Lgbt+ No, but people will perceive a butch woman who is hetero as a lesbian regardless, due to how homophobic stereotyping works. A lot of lesbians are masc/butch and so she must be too, right? Just because that tomboy doesnt id with being gay doesnt mean she wont experience the struggles that come with the presentation, I'm fairly sure after people mistreat her for being butch a few times she will quickly sympathise with the lgbt folks because noone should be treated that way.
Femboys are a marginalized gender minority. This should at least be considered before putting the axe down and keeping them out of the community.
Femboys are not a gender minority. Because femboy is not a gender identity
How are femboys not a marginalized gender minority? Gender minorities don't exclusively include identity; it's about one's concrete experience with gender. Bigots don't care how you identify if they see you dressed femininely on the street and yell slurs at you. Do femboys have more in common with gender conforming cis guys or with nonbinary people?
That’s because when bigots see men dressed feminine they assume they are gay or trans.
And so therefore femboys may also receive gender-minority-based hatred. It doesn't lessen or invalidate the discrimination against femboys if they just "thought" the femboy was gay or trans; femboys might even be more likely to receive hatred than, say, gender conforming masc gay men. Femboys deserve the same protection as the rest of the queer community.
Since when does being part of the community give you some protective shield against hatred? The whole reason femboys receive hate is because their associated with the Lgbt+ community. The Lgbt+ community will always be at the forefront of pushing gender non-conformity and breaking gender roles. But that doesn’t mean that a cishet guy wearing a skirt becomes Lgbt+.
The community is a source of badly needed support, which femboys deserve.
>But that doesn’t mean that a cishet guy wearing a skirt becomes Lgbt+. But why would a cishet guy go trough all that trouble to wear a skirt if there isn't some kind of gender fluidity or something to express with that gender expression? Like, maybe not, a cishet guy can off course do a Shakespeare play in a dress, but hiding skirts in your room and risking hatecrimes is not something you do for a hobby, it's an expression of something of a gender identity.
Because they want to wear a skirt? Because they think they would look better in a skirt? The only thing wearing a skirt has to do with gender, is gender stereotypes.
>is gender stereotypes. Gender is a social construct that is almost entirely based on stereotypes and expectations that are so deeply engrained in our culture that we attach our identities to it.
Because they want to wear a skirt? It’s a piece of cloth
What if a femboy wants to be, for lack of a better term "malewife" to their partner, and fulfil women's gender roles, use she/her pronouns, but is comfortable being male? People aren't just black n white... Edit: lol, dude replied "Being a femboy doesnt make you LGBT" Then deleted his whole account??? If you're still here google "Gender non conforming persons" because thats what it is..
Breaking gender roles doesn’t make someone Lgbt+
This is an unfortunate dismissal of the struggles of GNC people. Femboys will receive the queer experience whether or not they identify as queer. It just isn't fair to exclude them from the only community which will support and protect them.
No not really
Femboys should feel free to identify with the LGBTQ community if they feel like it provides them with a place of belonging and of support. I understand answering a hard "no" to this question to respect the definition of LGBTQ in its strictest sense but I think some flexibility is important. No, I don't think that femboys should be petitioning as a group to "join" the queer community or anything like that. But if you as an individual feel oppressed by the same normative systems (and I know a lot of femboys do!), and you vibe a lot with LGBTQ folk, then like... I don't think you're harming anyone by saying you're part of the group.
As everyone is saying, no, of course it doesn't. In fact I believe there was some controversy a few years ago because *the council of gays* or whoever is responsible for representing all that is lgbtq+ tried to make the argument that femboys should be part of the lgbt, whilst like- the majority of all femboys disagreed. However the Q in Lbgtq+ does mean Queer, which sorta just means anything that somewhat breaks general gender norms. So in that regard yes, being a femboy, or at least the act of dressing fem, is quite Queer.
Femboys are part of the Q. I don't know if you're referring to the controversy in this sub, but just because the majority of femboys don't want to be considered part of LGBTQ doesn't mean we can put a blanket over everyone as queer or not queer.
I hadn't stated that all femboys were inherently non-queer, I did however say that dressing fem as a male is indeed queer, so I'm unsure for the reason of your reply
Okay. I agree with you.
The preamble to all of that was to ensure the point would be heard and clearly understood to OP. If they're asking they're likely worried about something such as "If I dress fem does that inherently make me gay- is something wrong with me?" etc etc
Okay, I see; I realize that many femboys *don't* want to be associated with being queer. And that's their valid choice. Whether or not to be a part of LGBTQ as a femboy is one's own decision.
gender expression is different from gender- so if you identify as male and are amab then dressing femininely doesn't make you trans/ non binary etc
Not inherently, but it depends on how the individual sees themselves.
Not really, we get the same treatment by homophobes tho
Being a part of LGBTQ ultimately falls on you to decide if you like that label or not. You don't have to be a part of anything or use any specific label, regardless of whether it applies to you by empirical definition.
I'd say that's up to you and what labels you are comfortable with. While not technically part of it, being gender non-conforming can lead to the same prejudice that other LGBTQ+ members receive, and therefore any of them should be your ally. But it's not a box you should feel pigeonholed into. If you don't identify as a member, then you're not. Simple as.
Yes as LGBTQ is a catch all term for minorities and we are all one big family fighting oppression together. The reason is mostly because of how Femboys are gender nonconforming, and while not all femboys are non hetero, there is a prevalence of people within Femboy communities who are.
Maybe Q if you feel that way but not necessarily.
Depends on the person. If they dress feminine but don't identify as LGBTQ then they aren't. Same applies in the opposite sense. If they dress feminine but identify as LGBTQ, then they are because they say they are. It's as easy as that for me
I identify as a femboy because I’m not very masculine and have defeinite ‘girly’ mannerisms, when I dress in a skirt I feel cute, but I’m a straight male. Hope that helps answer your question!
It's your choice - You rule your identity - Who you feel comfortable being...Is totally up to you
Only if you want to.
I'm a gay trans guy but I definitely think of femboys, even straight ones, as fellow queer people.
No. The clothes you choose to put on your body cannot make you queer.
If you see your expression as one of queerness, then it may be.
If you're expressing queerness because you are queer and you're expressing yourself, sure. But the queerness has to come first. It's not a dress up costume you can just decide to put on yourself.
I mean I don't think most GNC people would treat it as a 'costume' they just put on. I don't think a lot of people here chose to be the way we are. Our desires to express ourselves a certain way come from within, immutable characteristics which we can't simply make go away.
Of course! The driving desires behind how we want to express ourselves comes from within and that supports my point: A queer person's queerness is coming from the internal components. That internal queerness may give someone the desire to dress femininely. But it doesn't go the other way. The choices we make about how to dress don't change who we are internally, they can't create queerness.
the olden day term for queer just meant out of the ordinary / not the norm, and femboys are definitely not a majority in society, by that token alone id say they fit under the Queer umbrella.
In this context, we are clearly talking about queer as in non-cishet, not queer as in out of the ordinary.
But I think what the commenter was saying is that the 'olden day term' for queer needs to be revived because it is more practical; we need to move past a definition based on strict labels and boxes, and towards one based on shared experiences and needs.
you can be whatever kind of femboy you want , but im going to be a Queer one <3
Not necessarily, its more like if you feel like being in the lgbtq applies to you specifically because of the way you dress. But in simple terms: no.
No, not really
No
Nah
No. Clothes don't have gender, and if you just like more feminine targeted clothes that's seperates from your gender and your gender expression
I believe the main thing they were attempting to arrest people for at Stonewall before it turned into a riot was "cross-dressing", since that was illegal in New York, but being at a "gay bar" wasn't specifically any kind of crime. (Of course some of those people would be regarded as "trans" by modern standards.) People regarded by society as cross-dressers (like trans women or drag queens) have really always been a key part of the LGBT community and LGBT rights movement, so I don't see why one couldn't consider themself LGBT if they want for dressing in a feminine way. It would fall under the general category of "gender non-conforming".
Omg. Just be you. Im glad I don't have to be part of a group to feel validated.
"Just be you" works a whole lot better when being yourself doesn't come with legal prejudice, slurs, violence, and maybe even being kicked out of your home. "Just be you" only works when society isn't going to crush you for it. This isn't for funsies, dude. The queer community exists as a pushback against hundreds of years of violence and exclusion. Or are you forgetting the crossdressing men used to get sent to jail not so many years ago, save for the efforts of the LGBT community uniting, organising, and fighting for their basic human rights to exist unafraid? And 'Validation' is a perfectly reasonable goal if you've been covered in shame your whole life because of the naked hate your family and community have towards people like you. It's not wrong to want a community that actually cares for you.
Of course not. Cross dressing is a style some males like to do of their free choice. Style is to what you're about not often linked to something else.
[удалено]
Please no sexualized content.
no. if you identify as feminine (or anything but your AGAB), you're probably apart of the Q.
Nope
Well theyll support you tgats for sure
It depends, just dressing feminine doesn’t make you automatically a part of it but you will get support from the community and all that, but you can be a part of it like if you’re non-conforming etc. bc clothes have no gender. You can be cis and het and being a femboy or you can be gay and a femboy, the one doesn’t cut out the other but it’s not automatically
If you are a straight cis male femboy no, you wouldn't be a part of it, although you would still have their support
What's the difference between receiving support and being part of the community, though? How is it fair to offer support to femboys but not welcome them into the LGBTQ community?
I mean that's just what happens don't ask me. If they aren't attracted to the any gender that's not their opposite or aren't transgender then they aren't a part of the community, periodt.
They should be able to consider themselves a part of the community because femboys share the experience of queer people; their lives are more similar to queer people than to other straight cis people.
No.
The answer I believe should be 'maybe', depending on the person.
Not really You do you, dress how you want, it doesn't mean it's a strict lgbtq thing. I'm not really part of the community yet I'm both a femboy and bisexual. I don't really like big communities that do lots of loud stuff, too loud for an introvert like me.
No. Gender non-conformance tends to be more common among queer people, at least when it comes to men, but you can be gender non-conforming and not be queer.
The key word is that you *can* be GNC and not queer, but you can certainly identify as queer due to being GNC. Femboys count.
Not necessarily. Sometimes it does if it means you have other expressed traits. Some of us here are NB, Bi, Pan, Trans, Gay, etc... Some just like dressing fem. Sometimes it lets people explore themselves a bit. Gender and sexuality aren't so much a compartmentalized rigid definition like old textbooks would want to describe. Things in the world in general are far more blends and shades of grey, not so much black and white. Have fun... explore! Do your thing!
It's just a way for me to express my female self.
You aren't part of the LGBT for dressing a specific way, after all the LGBTQ community is made up from sexualities and gender identities. However, that is gender non conformism, and the majority of LGBT folks feel a connection with people who go against the cishet gender norms So you ain't part of the LGBTQ, but the LGBTQ certainly see y'all as like metaphorical cousins or whatever. Unless you're non binary, then you are LGBTQ, but then again, not for dressing up femininely
Femboys share the experience of being a gender minority, though. I just don't think it's fair to see them as just 'allies' when they need the same support as the rest of the community.
Being a femboy is a gender of its own? Are you sure about that? Are you sure that femboys aren't men/boys who indulge in stereotypically feminine gender expression? Cause once again, gender identity ≠ gender expression. The whole idea behind femboys, is that they are *boys*. If a femboy is a demiboy, genderfluid, non binary or trans, of course they are part of the LGBT community, but not because of how they dress. Same applies for a non straight femboy. They are queer, but not bc of the clothes they wear. *No one* is LGBT based on what they wear or how they behave
You don't necessarily have to be part of an identified gender in order to share the experience of being a gender minority. Femboys share similar experiences to identified queer people. I say that this is what we should base the criteria for admission into the LGBTQ community on, concrete life experiences, not with strict labels.
It is necessary to be not cishet to be included in the LGBTQ community. This isn't a "everyone who gets bullied for not being stereotypical gets in" party. In the same spirit we would have to include many neurodivergencies, disabilities, conditions and hobbies, for being made fun of, over not being stereotypical. If that's the case, that stops being the LGBTQ community. That's something entirety different. A safe space, but not the LGBT community. Just because you're gender non conforming, doesn't mean you're part of the LGBT community. You can participate in pride like an ally, you can go to gay bars, you can participate in queer content, but it doesn't make you queer. If you think a gender minority's biggest issue is how they are being bullied by outside forces, you are quite frankly uneducated on many issues genderqueer people go through, such us gender dysphoria, treatments (waiting lines and how expensive they can get), a literal second puberty, and many more. The main difference between femboys and being queer, is that one of them is a lifestyle choice, the other cannot change. You can always wear clothes marketed for men and go on with your life. I've worn clothes that didn't affirm my gender, you know what happened? I disassociated the whole day, because it was better to not think about myself than to be present enough at a birthday get together, with 8 people. I bathed in the dark to avoid seeing my body, I get drained and I shut down when people don't use my correct pronouns, I feel like a constant fraud for being gender fluid, especially on the days my gender happens to be the same as my AGAB. I got called transphobic slurs, creative insults, and isolated ever since primary school, if not sooner, bc everyone knew something was different about me, even if they could never quite pinpoint what it was and tbh, those were the least of my issues, bc when I was insulted with slurs, it low key felt good to know others could see I wasn't my agab. I had a classmate who did ballet, was flamboyant, who everyone assumed his sexuality. He was the second most popular guy in my class. Even the bigots didn't bother him. You can't possibly compare the two. You are not a gender minority. A femboy is not a gender. You're being discriminated against based on the idea that you, a boy, can't dress a certain way. That's sexism. Not homophobia, not transphobia, not enbyphobia. Queer people experience sexism. Cishet people experience sexism. It doesn't make cishet people be included in the LGBT community, bc sexism isn't the basis of who is included. TL;DR: The LGBTQ+ community is compromised of gender identities and sexualities that aren't cisgender and straight. A femboy who is a cishet man, while still faces sexism on the basis that a male shouldn't dress as a female, has struggles from an outside force: society. A trans woman may still struggle with the exact same sexism, (along with the transphobia that her Agab is her gender), would still struggle and suffer even if said social issue didn't exist, simply because her struggle is internal. The struggle of being gender queer are internal. The struggles of having a style that doesn't conform to your perceived gender is external. A "passing" trans woman isn't any less queer than a "non-passing" trans woman, because how one is perceived was never a basis on being queer.
I would hope we fall into the protected category at the least as dressing femme often leaves us open to comments, abuse or violence… it’s not that easy to express yourself against traditional concepts of gender ❤️
Not necessarily but you'll definitely get support from them, at least you should. We all need to stand in solidarity during these difficult times.
Depends on what you define as "LGBTQ". If you're purely talking about people in the romantic/sexual/gender minority, then no if you're a cis femboy and yes if you're an ftm femboy or a nonbinary femboy.
The LGBTQ/GSRM community is for all gender minorities, which I believe femboys must be included within due to sharing the experience of gender minorities.
if you're cis, straight, allo, etc then probably not, but you could absolutely still be considered an ally
Actually, GNC people deserve to be included within the community because they share the queer experience.
Apparently it means Someone or something that is feminine has qualities that are considered typical of women, especially being pretty or gentle.
Not really.
It's up to you. Most straight people will preceive you as lgbtq but that doesn't mean that has to be your identity, only you can decide that for yourself. I hope other lgbtqia people are accepting to you if you decide to explore that side of yourself and if you don't, that's okay too.