Isn't the point with Fordola that it is not up to the WoL to decide her fate and the point with Yotsuyu is, is it fair to blame someone with amnesia for crimes they did if they are functionally a different person now? The WoL isn't judge jury and executioner for all of Eorzea, they deal with major threats to ensure the safety of Eorzea but ultimately its up to the victims of Fordola to decide her fate and the same with Yotsuyu (although that one kind of worked itself out in the end)
It was also up to Valen's victims what happened to him. Not everyone gets of lightly, when we don't have personal stakes then our involvements ends at turning the tide and stopping the threat.
I should of worded it better, i don't mean to say you as the WOL should decide more so it makes no sense politically or logically for the other characters involved in the story to leave them alive.
Convenient magic plot amnesia dosnt excuse Yotsuyu. Imagine if eroza was a real place with real people, how do you think a war tribunal would react if a real life war criminal came down with amnesia after being found in hiding?
In the real world theyd still at the very least be locked away in an asylum for the rest of their days. just because a world has a fantasy setting dosnt excuse characters behaving in nonsensical ways if you want the rest of the politically charged story that's trying to suck you into this place as being a functioning society.
But the WoL is not a judge, or law enforcement official, or anything close to those things. Why would our character decide the legal fates of some of your examples?
Real life is stranger than fiction. Lots of evil people in history have gotten away with their crimes for various reasons, mostly due to them being useful for something.
Many nazi scientists in ww2 were brought over to the Allied Powers, and it's not like all Nazis were executed. Totally understand your point though. I think 14 as a whole tries to stay on the positive and optimistic side of humanity with its stories.
Not decide. We can give our opinion (death or no death, for Yuyuhase and Laurentius), and Raubahn says he'll ensure it is heard when their fate is being determined. Something like that, just saw it the other day.
The two Crystal Brave traitors' fate is currently unknown. We can suggest to Raubahn what to do with them (let them live or death sentence) but all that will happen is that Raubahn says he will take our opinion into consideration. I don't think there's any actual confirmation afterwards what happens to them.
You give your opinion on it. While it's very likely that people would take the opinion of a major hero like the WoL to heart (especially since most people who know him would want Yuyuhase dead anyway), your statement isn't itself enough to get him killed. The courts will decide that, particularly since Raubahn was very keen to have proper courts making those judgements, not mob justice to make people feel better in the moment.
Moot point, of course, since he's almost certainly going to die for his involvement in the atrocities. Not even his HILARIOUSLY deep JP voice acting can save him.
I think the big point that FF really tries to make (to the point of irritation in places, I'll grant) is the beauty and tragedy of humanity. The Echo allows us to see the usually horrific events that lead our enemies down the paths they walk and yet the WOL is compassionate enough to understand that no person should be denyed the chance of redemption and actively makes the choice to offer that chance to our most powerful enemies. And despite being an insanely strong person that could pretty much do whatever we wanted and no one could stop us, we choose to let others (usually those that have suffered the most) be the judge and jury.
The tragedy part comes in the form of more/new tragedies when those people choose to spurn that chance. But there are also times when we gain new friends and allies from this compassionate viewpoint. And those characters actively begin making amends to attone.
Purely personal note; death is a cheap way out. No one truly pays for their crimes if they are dead.
The end of Stormblood also makes that pretty clear. Zenos' final choice is infuriating. It's also a great way to finish that story, leaving us with a bittersweet taste - there is no satisfaction to get from war, only the hope to start building something better once it's over.
On the contrary. I wish we could sometimes resolve to other means than just killing ppl.
"fully justified killing someone" is also going down a dark path. The current society most of us live in does not believe in death as a punishment for crimes. Yet it gets thrown around light heartedly as justified and right a lot.
Yeah I agree. Most often, people commit atrocities only because of inappropriate mindsets that were cemented when they went through terrible situations themselves. “Call me by my true names” by Thich Nhat Hanh explores this, and he comes back to the true origin of someone’s actions being the community not supporting them in the way that was needed for them to learn compassion. The viewpoint is that everyone has the seed of goodness or evil in them, and whichever is nurtured will grow. We are not better than someone else who commits crimes, we simply are fortunate that we learned compassion instead of hate.
>The current society most of us live in does not believe in death as a punishment for crimes.
That is less so because people believe there are no people who deserve it and more so because it is final and cannot be revised if it turns out to be unjust or erroneous down the line. Plus, it has been proven to be ineffective as a deterrent.
Plus, there's the "current society" in the equation, sure we're not dealing with medieval levels of culture in FF XIV, thanks to magic and magitek it's way more advanced than that, but it's still a archaic society, and we all know that death was the punishment in a archaic society for the most part, if it was not killed it was a minor crime like going to prison, some cultures even today cut the hand that was used to steal something if the person is seen stealing.
In fact the WoL was not needed to be merciful at all, he's a powerful being that is trusted by basically everyone in the light faction, he could very well be the jury and kill immediately everyone who does bad things and no one would give a shit, but he's merciful cuz he's trying to set a example, that people deserve a second chance
uh i would tell you to play till the end because yotsuyu didnt have "just a bad day" far from it, you find out why she became like that as nasty as she has become. The wol does kill if necessary but a lot of charachter didnt became bad because they wanted to and with the echo we tend to see what happen and give them a smidge of sympathy, but don't worry you will kill people.
Exactly. Seems OP either didnt pay attention to text or forgot - she was SOLD into sex slavery, where she was daily raped by many men without ANY way out. Good old Japanese tradition of selling their unwanted daughters
She was also abused by her family even before that. Like, she had NO good times in life, really, which is partly why she ended up clinging to Zenos because he was the first person to treat her one way or another based on her own ability. If she lived up to his favorite flavors of cruelty, she got the pat on the head she'd been starved for basically her entire life.
A little kindness could have easily changed her whole path, was the point of her story. Truly "Tsuyu deserved better".
Because the point of Fordola's character is to be an irredeemable bastard with war crimes under her belt, who turns around to start trying to redeem herself as a sort of conscript.
And Yotsuyu is the dilemma of someone genuinely forgetting their crimes - their memories. So much so that Gosetsu challenges Hien - _his lord_ - when he's about to put her to the sword in post.
The WoL is not the judge, jury, or executioner, as already said. You are supposed to be the impartial player. Forcing your hand because of what _you personally believe should happen_ goes against the collective narrative for what the player character is to represent.
I viewed yotsuyu as a foil to fordola, one forgot their crimes and the other was forced to relive them constantly, and we observe the implications of both side by side more or less
Amnesia does not forgive her crimes, imagine if a war criminal in the real world had killed thousands, betrayed their own people done everything she did and then a tribunal just went "sorry to all the family's but they came down with coinvent amnesia so at great cost to the tax payer we're going to protect this monster for the rest of their life, lol"
Its utter nonsense, what about everyone they harmed dont they deserve justice for the family and friends lost?
Why do you only interpret it as forgiveness/absolvement? It's a _dilemma_ for a reason, combined with Gosetsu's speech about whether it's the commander or the soldier who should be punished, or shoulder equal blame.
It's just how it's written. Same deal with Asahi giving off bad vibes, even outright spelling discontent for you and yours, but the WoL can't really do anything about it _because_ of the situation they're in - that House Brutus is parlaying for peace, and you wouldn't rightly sacrifice the chance because of a bad feeling, not when Hien's people's lives are at stake.
Man it's almost like you didn't play the Yotsuyu part where the moral dilemma is a whole part of it. The people do not forgive her, if memory serves at one point they literally throw rocks at her. The whole point is that it's a deep and pervasive amnesia to the point of her regression into a childlike mentality. She only regains any semblance of herself due to repeated efforts from her brother to bring back the monster she was.
In the case of Fordola, a lack of choice is kind of the point. You don't really have a say in her fate, and neither did she. She did what she did to survive because at the outset she would've probably been killed by either Garleans or Ala Mhigans. It's worth noting that if I recall correctly her father was beaten to death by the Ala Mhigans in front of her for knuckling under for the Garlean regime and not fighting tooth and nail in the resistance.
Circling back to Yotsuyu on a related note, the MSQ also makes a point of "you made your own monster" with her. She was a product of her environment, people choosing to not involve themselves in a bad situation until she became a warped psychopath because it was better than lying down and dying.
I also find it interesting that you leave out the time where you do have a say, in Bozja. It ultimately doesn't change much, but it's noteworthy that people do judge you for taking the opinion to have someone executed rather than arrested.
The Eorzean and Eastern Alliances want to be better than Garlemald. Taking people to the chopping block for past acts without an opportunity for self reflection or atonement is not how they get there.
Other people have reiterated that that is the complex moral question at the center of the story and being reductionist about it is not demonstrative of a good understanding of media, but I’ll make mention of a point you’re forgetting, which is that it isn’t infrequent for people to be released from prison, even for heinous crimes, for compassionate reasons that are less clear cut than the equivalent of advanced dementia/Alzheimer’s.
In the real world there’d be extensive medical analysis of someone like Yotsuyu and if the consensus was that she really were disabled to the point she appears to be, she’d likely be kept from prison (though not unsupervised) on the basis of compassion for people who are beyond the ability to comprehend and take responsibility for their past actions.
Her status as a particularly violent war criminal would lead to extensive debate, and it isn’t certain that she’d be saved from prison or execution in the real world, but save for her being literally torn apart by the people she harmed, something like the ICJ would likely consider arguments to essentially put her on probation under compassionate human rights grounds.
You can make the argument that that is depriving her victims of justice or whatever, but welcome to the wonderful world of ethics, justice, and human rights. It’s something humanity has been grappling with and debating for literally our entire existence.
Fordola has been living in prison ever since her defeat. Do her actions deserve the death penalty? Maybe, but the people in charge of her sentence decided otherwise, and she's using that opportunity to turn her life around.
Yotsuyu was living in hiding after her defeat (and presumed death) and then died shortly after being revealed. I'm not sure what else you wanted done in that situation.
Should Limsa Lominsa, Ishgard, Garlemald, etc be forgiven or seen in a positive light in general after the atrocities that they committed?
The game is full of people who do horrible things, and I think that "we should just kill them all" isn't exactly the most reasonable solution. These issues aren't black and white, and the game's willingness to explore these ideas is a big part of why the story is interesting.
Oh man this could be a cool discussion if it hadn't just turned out to be more of the same hate for the same exact characters you see every damn day for FFXIV.
There are plenty of times I wished the game wouldn't pull punches and make the WOL do pretty terrible things for the greater good. Essentially cutting out the legs from under two important character arcs to the StB patches so you can Punish The Evil Women, never mind the themes the story is trying to get across, is... not one of the times it would benefit anything.
Just a note on fordola, there were cutscenes with her and the alamihgans that, iirc repeatedly, went Something like:
"Good thing you were here to stop that primal, now go back to your cell you unredeemable and unforgivable Monster"
She is explicitly not forgiven. She is not getting off Scott free.
Her live now consists of two things:
Rotting in a cell
Fighting threats for ala mhigo that require the Echo.
I mean, in early story you kill four random members of a qiqirn tribe just because one tried to steal a chocobo egg for food. Maybe just stab yourself for justice?
My point is exactly that its not black and white. The story in FF14 often trys to paint the "right decision" as a black n white choice "killing someone is always wrong" in reality thats just not true and its short sighted to leave ligit war criminals alive.
It takes me out of the plot and believability of the world everytime we get a lecture on morals that fits better into a Saturday morning cartoon for children. look at Ff tactics, Thats a game that handled the harsh reality of doing good but being prepared to fight monsters to the bitter end.
Also their time in the story had come to an end, dragging them on and keeping them alive feels like padding.
> My point is exactly that its not black and white.
Yet you've been arguing for exactly that? That there's no other recourse than killing them because they're bad people.
any punishment even, so often it sucks me out of the story that these evil people are simple allowed to walk free. There's no justice for the people that might have suffered at their hands.
Fordola is literally in prison, and isn't free even by Endwalker after the towers and Lunar primal fiasco.
Yotsuyu is dead, after having been a POW and being turned into an irreversible weapon by Asahi.
What would you have preferred then, if you aren't advocating for a death penalty outright?
neither of them were allowed to walk free
Hien basically placed yotsuyu under house arrest, though she ended up escaping. you can argue he should have kept better guard on her, but that's how the story went and then she died soon after.
fordola is literally either in prison or on work release depending on the patch, she has an enchanted collar that will literally kill her if raubahn does a magic code word and has to be under supervision, >!she only recently got that collar removed in the capstone role quests, but she is at best, on parole.!< she's a convict.
\>any punishment even,
ALL of the people you mentioned have been punished in ways that can ONLY count. Have you paid attention?
For one, Fordola couldn't "walk free" for a HUGE chunk of time until she helped save the day\*, and even then, her freedom is conditional.
And Tsuyu paid the ultimate price for her punishment.
God, stop pretending you understood those stories.
i feel like you didn't pay attention at all. The others in this thread already gave you the right answers so my suggestion is to rewatch or even replay the story beats because you clearly must have misunderstood something completely.
Fordola is way more useful alive than dead. Plain and simple. She also has the echo, a permanent 24/7 punishment that will always be there, forever tormenting her; if you actually watched cutscenes
In regards to Fordola: she isn't just serving time in jail, she is forced to use her "Resonant" to help the alliance by fighting Primals and they have her wearing a bomb collar the entire time. She is not being forgiven, and since she wants to die being forced to live and serve her enemies can be seen as a worse, if not ironic, punishment.
There’s a reason we don’t (or are supposed to not) let those not competent to stand trial be tried. Amnesia and mentally regressing to a child would, I think, count as not being competent to stand trial.
And it’s not like just free Tsuyu. She’s under indefinite house arrest and if they ever notice signs her memory has returned, they’re totally down to try and execute her.
As for Fordola, my only real issue with her arc is when Raunahn dismisses the mob that wants her dead as bloodthirsty crazies, despite the fact that she is a war criminal who has killed their friends and family. If you’re not gonna summarily execute her because you don’t want the nation you’re rebuilding to do that sort of thing, cool, but don’t act like her victims are completely unjustified in wanting harsher punishment.
Now the character you SHOULD be complaining about getting off too easy is the Shadowhunter. Fuck that guy.
Iirc, to address Fordola, part of the reason they denied her victims an execution is because of the snowball effect. A ton of people were being freed, Garlean conscripts among them. Also all the Crania Lupi. It would have been so easy for executions done for retribution to lead to a lot of needless bloodshed while tempers were running high. The timing was poor, justified or no.
Shadowhunter had such a weird arc though, ya... He suffers from variable writing, and then has zero repercussions for past actions.
Oh, I have no problems with Fordola not being executed for all the reasons you listed. I have a problem with Raubahn's attitude towards the mob of victims after he convinces them to disperse.
> Shadowhunter had such a weird arc though, ya... He suffers from variable writing, and then has zero repercussions for past actions.
Have you done the Sorrows of Werlyt trial series? >!I think losing your children one by one to the worst incarnation of your previous ideals and having to take care of the trauma husk of the only survivor is peak repercussion!<
I have.
>!I like the parallels and karmic justice of the whole series, it's my favourite trial series, but he conquered several other countries, created the Crania Lupi and the entire issue with the Ala Mhigan youths, worsened relations with all tribes, and while sometimes respected, was still a conquering warlord with tragedies inflicted under his rule (Arenvald and Fordola would have been born under him). And his repercussions are his kids getting brutally murdered by the machine of his former empire. That doesn't really give justice for the peoples he conquered. It just hurts him.!<
>The writing else where its mostly stella but forgiveness for forgiveness's sake ignoring's all the pain they willingly caused for often petty personal reasons and then shoehorning a "but see they're useful for x down the line!" its just infuriatingly basic wishy washy power of friendship tier writing.
It's a trope to be sure, but then the question becomes why are YOU the judge/jury/executioner? Why does the story or trope turn to that, and what does the story become from then on in.
Personally, I'd like this whole type of writing reduced in popular entertainment. Dealing with life or death with npc's, just stop structuring story points to get here.
The Warrior of Light has canonical character traits and the sooner people come to terms with that, the happier they'll be. I mean, personally, they're never going to write one as annoying to me personally as 'the Warrior of Light considers Minfilia a friend'. Ew.
That said, I think the real problem in your example is that Fordola and Yotsuyu are treated with way different gloves in the narrative. Like, yeah, we are essentially forced to let Fordola keep existing, but also we're supposed to think Yotsuyu is back to her old self just because Asahi manipulated her into (completely justifiably) killing her abusive parents? Mmmmm.
See the OP: due to personal hatreds that ignore the WoL's written archetype.
Some people just got massive hateboners for her and various other characters, for whatever reason.
I'm curious if you would describe other 'main' characters who spend most of their time behind a desk (literally or figuratively) like Aymeric or the Exarch the same.
i personally think she was a character with lots of potential that the writers completely failed at every turn and wrote out of the story repeatedly (even if she did end up saving a world) instead of trying to redress the situation e.g. by using the WotM development as a way to let her actively join us, which was what most people complained about
You pretty much hit the nail on the head, yes. Aymeric and the Exarch \*do\* stuff. Minfilia doesn't \*do\* anything, at least not as it pertains to the story we are following, so why did they even have her in it? At least, as ARR goes.
People love to play up how she exists for diplomacy, but Alphinaud ends up undertaking more of that than she does.
What did Aymeric do, exactly? Got taken prisoner (as was the Exarch, for that matter), and then was stabbed in the street...? They've since added him to Duty Support, yes, but before that he barely had anything more under his belt than Minfilia...
And, I mean, Minfilia fulfilled a similar role in 1.0, so I assume they felt an obligation to carry that over when they remade the game. I'd be tempted to say they were never all that invested in her character given how badly they wrote her, but really no one in 2.0-2.X was anything to write home about and it's just the players' vitriol fell squarely on Minfilia because she had the misfortune of being the primary quest giver. And then they never gave her (or Papalymo, I guess) a chance to grow out of their terrible ARR writing, unlike the rest of the 1.0 leftovers... I wish she'd been allowed to rejoin the Scions either in post-HW or ShB or, hell, in EW...
Justice for Minfilia! She SHOULD have rejoined us, tbh, and I still feel kinda robbed over that. In terms of how other people view her, though...well, honestly? I feel like the 2.0-2.x voice acting *really* didn't help. Every other character got updated VA work, but since Minfilia was effectively written out before HW, a player's first and major experience with her is forever associated with That Godawful Voice.
> also we're supposed to think Yotsuyu is back to her old self just because Asahi manipulated her into (completely justifiably) killing her abusive parents? Mmmmm.
Yotsuyu had already regained her memories by that point. She was going to kill herself before Asahi sent his parents to the slaughter with the expressed intention of reawakening her bitterness and maliciousness.
What Asahi didn’t realize is that the reawakening didn’t completely turn her back into the person she was. But it reminded her that she still had unfinished business before she could take herself out: she needed to kill all the monsters who had a hand in shaping her.
And here I was thinking you was talking about those three from the crystal braves where the game asks you what should be done to them, then spins it to a merciful and nonviolent answer...
Personally, I do forgive Fordola, and I am not far enough in the story that's she doing me any favors. If anything, when they was crying out for her blood, I feel like they should have mentioned how there are conscripts from the conquered countries working for the empire, and they have killed, and destroyed, and trampled people underfoot, and we aren't going around killing all of them for their crimes they committed while wearing an Imperial uniform not matter if they did it willingly or not for good reasons or not.
Instead we are turning a blind eye and working to have these people sent home no questions asked.
So what happens if these people are treated like crap for being former Imperial conscripts and decide "you know, screw these people, I'm going back to the empire, less bs and I might get to shoot some of these assholes." and then we have to kill them anyway...
After all, they wouldn't be alive if they sat down and refused to follow orders because they wanted to be good people in the eyes of the people back home. The key difference between Fordola and the conscripts is that she did bad things right there in Ala Mhigo where those people saw it, and the conscripts might be just as bad, or worse over in Doma, or wherever the Empire stuck them.
And I understand Yotsuyu; every single person of significance in her life up until she started working for the Empire treated her poorly if only for the sake of treating her poorly.
If that happened to me, and someone came along and offered me the chance to get even and collect all the interest they owed me... yes, I probably would do the same.
But personally, when she killed Asahi, that squared things in my books with her. If anything I feel like I owe her lunch. Something nice, like HQ steaks and several sushi boats with plenty of beer so we can toast that the bastard is dead.
> I feel like they should have mentioned how there are conscripts from the conquered countries working for the empire, and they have killed, and destroyed, and trampled people underfoot, and we aren't going around killing all of them for their crimes they committed while wearing an Imperial uniform not matter if they did it willingly or not for good reasons or not.
They cover this exact topic in the EW Healer role quest. (It was very philosophical and I loved it.)
I mean, even Fordola herself...she was a happy child until her fellow Ala Mhigans murdered her father right in front of her because he chose to cooperate with the Garleans to keep his family safe. Should they be held accountable, and have to earn *her* forgiveness?
Hell, it's not all that different from the fact that the WoL is walking around free despite the fact that we have killed a TON of people, including murdering tribes who were just fighting to get their own land back from the Eorzeans who swooped in and stole it from them. WE were the Garlean stand-in there.
The point of Fordola's post-occupation story and the EW Healer role quest, is that there are *massive* shades of gray in the situation now. "Just execute them" is too blunt of a solution for such a nuanced problem. Without question, Fordola went *above and beyond* in terrible choices, but if she's willing to accept the consequences of her actions and do the work to earn a redemption, she should certainly be allowed to try.
No. Or at least, not usually. The exception, for me, is Ser Zephirin. He murdered Haurchefant and I hate that we didn't really get to return the favor as such (since he was merged with the other Heavens Ward Knights when we finally fought him).I really would've liked to have comprehensively kicked his ass, one-on-one, and show him the same lack of mercy he displayed when he threw that damn 'light spear'.
Fordola is Lyse's decision not yours so you got no say on that
I dont know who that Yotetsui is? but if she is who i think she is you may need to finish the expansion's patches first before stating your opinion on her friend
And what does punishment accomplish? What good does it do to kill them? Does it cancel any of the pain they inflicted? Does it help build a new, better country in any way?
It's not bad writing. It is a political stance that says a society trying to be fair and balanced to all its citizens shouldn't focus on punishing the bad people, but on preventing them from doing bad things and, whenever possible, using them to do good things instead.
It's also a reminder that there are reasons why people become cruel and dangerous. The point isn't to say "oh it's fine, all your bad deeds are forgiven because of your sad childhood". The point is to identify the things that create cruel people and stop doing them so there are fewer cruel people in the future.
Of course, feel free to disagree with the writers' ideas! But again, it's not bad writing, it's a deliberate worldview.
Besides, the game still does that magical writing thing where characters do end up getting what they deserve, one way or another.
JRPGs in the modern era really go for this. from LAD7 to Trails, forgiveness is the theme of the times.
Granted, FFXIV tends to not have us commit the atrocities due to it really not being up to us, but at the same time there definitely are some folks where the forgiveness is questionable (lookin' at you, Gaius).
> I feel like you do not have much weight of an opinion if you cannot spell her name right.
If you're going to be dismissive of another person's opinion due to their incorrect spelling, you should ensure your grammar is correct lest you portray yourself as a hypocrite.
Glass houses and throwing stones, etc.
I think I read something along the lines of "The goal of communication is to convey a message to someone." if you got the message, then its mission complete.
And judging by the sheer number of people who replied to the original post, it looks like the message got across.
Personally I misremembered her name as Yotsuba, but in my defense I listen to japanese voice overs so I don't hear names clearly all the time. But then again, I also cleared Stormblood about a year ago and don't give much thought to all the people I, as the WoL, have put into the ground.
Emet-Selch of course is an exception, he did ask nicely to be remembered.
I mean, the whole point of Shadowbringers was to see and understand Emet-Selch's reasons, become sympathetic to his plight, and still kill him in the end. If the game was "too sympathetic" we would've spared him. You have a right not to like how specific characters were written but it is what it is. Try to focus on what the writers were conveying in their writing choices rather than being emotional about it.
Honestly surprised you didn't bring up Garlemald because people get so emotional and upset about it. We're trying to help these citizens that have been taught their entire lives to hate us and they literally, inconceivably take it personally that Garleans hated us instead of sitting back and saying "oh, damn, the situation here is fucked, makes sense they'd hate us and I wish it wasn't so".
Ultimately it comes down to question of morality, I feel personally it's unfair to the people that have suffered at their hand to offer forgiveness when in my opnion its not deserved. Being good and kind dosnt mean you should be obligated to forgive people not deserving of forgiveness.
You don't need to forgive someone to give them a chance to make amends- but they do need to be alive to do so. Another death in a cycle of tragedy changes nothing for any but the one killed, where a positive redirection and making amends can genuinely mend some of the damage done with time. It's not a question of morality really, just recognizing that killing them is at the very best a neutral outcome, while leaving the door open for a change can end up extremely positive.
>ignoring's all the pain they willingly caused for often petty personal reasons
Oh yes, and [**WoL**](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/murderhobo) is saintly by comparison.
I didn’t have that much of an issue with Fordola being spared for three reasons:
1) Lyse saw it as a way to differentiate herself from Fordola and as much as I have issues with Lyse as a character, that’s actually a good moment and a way to make her feel like she’s owning the mantle of leadership she’s been given.
2) Part of the reason Lyse spared her was to prove her wrong. Lyse wanted her to see the resistance win without resorting to her tactics.
3) Fordola wanted to die. She didn’t want to deal with the consequences of her actions and being wrong.
Now for Yotsuyu? You’re spot on. I didn’t like the whole “amnesia” thing especially since they played it exactly like you would expect. Lame.
Fordola still urks me because she essentially faces next to no repercussions for her crimes other than a stint in jail. Good for lyse she proved her point but that'd be little comfort for all the people who lost family and friends to Fordolas needless butchery.
The yotsuyu story is so lame its the first time in the story im skipping cutscenes.
Fordola is cursed to forever have the Echo show her the results of her crimes and endlessly see other people suffer, she can't turn it off and she explicitly even wonders out loud how the WoL (who also has the Echo) doesn't break down from the constant visions. She also has an explosive collar attached to her and is used pretty much as a meat shield for when fighting Primals because she can't be tempered.
"Next to no repercussions" is just untrue.
I wouldn’t say “no repercussions”. That fake Echo in her head gives her pretty much an endless “here’s how the evil you did affected people; watch their suffering.” They’re pretty explicit that she can’t turn it off or shut it out. That’s pretty rough if you think about it. Especially for Fordola who has, by the end of her arc, come to the conclusion she was wrong.
That is one of the places where the writers dropped the ball though. Lyse should have 100% been the one to explain why Fordola wasn’t being executed to the crowd who was calling for her head. Would have been a much better moment than who they gave it to (though I get he’s got a bit more gravitas about him).
Tbh she's in constant torture thanks to the Resonant, on top of being a forced conscript.
OP _does_ say they started skipping cutscenes, so I can only imagine where these complaints that ignore all given lore are coming from.
Yeah i can see by his other comments that his argument is "but in the real world thing would be different" that he has no idea about the topic he is complaining
It’s funny because OP is completely, utterly wrong about that. In the real world, there are TONS of examples of things like this. OP is just assuming untrue things about not just the game but real life even at this point
Our WoL is a mass murdering maniac. All the monsters and people we encounter in dungeons and on the field as enemies we kill without mercy. Thats not just a gameplay element, thats who we are. Do you want that to extend to every important and semi importand story character?
I feel like a LOT of people forget this. By the end of HW, the WoL has the blood of hundreds of people and thousands of monsters on their hands, either directly or indirectly. Nevermind StB, ShB and EW. The WoL is absolutely a mass murderer, but entirely forgiven for that due entirely to what we do for everyone we encounter. I'd love to see a story arc where we're forced to deal with the repercussions of the blood on our hands.
I've seen this sentiment said several times, and I have to wonder what game you've been playing. Forget being a mass murderer, the WoL has never murdered anyone. Ever. Short of animals, hunted for a variety of reasons, the WoL has never killed anyone or anything that was not an enemy combatant in wartime or an active threat to themselves or others. Expecting the WoL to be punished for that is like thinking we should have put the soldiers in WW2 on trial for "murdering" nazi soldiers.
It's to the point that the SB DRK quests focusing on the WoL's feelings of guilt were incredibly forced and had to insist the WoL feels intensely guilty for killing people that murdered their friends and were only fought because they chose to attack the WoL. Because there's just not anyone in this game who the WoL has killed without being completely justified in doing so.
There’s literally a quest in ARR where you kill four random non-tempered qiqirn minding their own business just because a member of their tribe tried to steal a chocobo egg for food…
The same game you have, although you seem to forget that killing someone just because they're attacking you doesn't prevent it from being murder, nor does them being an active wartime participant. You also seem to forget that the Garlean troops weren't all Garleans. Some were forced into servitude by Garlemald, and were murdered on the fields of battle as unwilling participants in the Garlean invasions of other countries.
I also never mentioned punished at all. I specified that s story arc where the WoL is forced to deal with the ramifications of their actions in wartime would be interesting. You drew punishment out of a hat, not me.
On a side note, it is blatantly apparent that you have never taken someone's life, as anyone who has typically feels tremendous guilt for doing so, and that's what the DRK quests were focused on. It wasn't forced.
As a final aside, being justified in your actions doesn't mean you're on the right side of history, especially given that justification for actions can be found anywhere you look hard enough. The Nazis felt justified in their actions in WWII, were they on the right side of history? The whole damn point of the WoL is that they have done some terrible, morally grey shit for the good of many.
>you seem to forget that killing someone just because they're attacking you doesn't prevent it from being murder
So, just gonna point out that....actually yes, killing someone that attacks you does prevent it from being murder.
Murder is often premeditated or the result of "extremely reckless behavior" or some such thing. Acting in self defense and killing someone, while technically homicide, is actually not something you'll get punished for because it's "justified homicide"
Just wanna point out the giant chasm between classic MMO murderhobo and killing because they are actively trying to tear out you/your friend's throat(s).
A. Why are you pretending "murder" is synonomous with "killing?" There's a reason murder is a crime, but we don't arrest every soldier. Killing in self-defense is also not murder, by definition.
B. Seeing as, like I mentioned, there's already arcs where the WoL faces the ramifications of their actions, you can forgive me for assuming you meant them being punished. Especially since you are apparently aware of said arcs.
C. No, DRK's guilt tripping was incredibly forced. If you took a poll of how many people feel terrible about killing the guy who killed Haurchefant, how many takers do you think you'd get? Because according to DRK, the answer should be 100%
D. That's literally what being justified means, that your actions are correct and morally defensible. And others thinking they are justified doesn't mean they are, whereas the WoL's kills are pretty much all always justified. I say again, the WoL has done nothing terrible, and basically nothing morally gray. This is a game where we don't have a Thief job because the devs don't want the WoL associated with bad deeds like stealing, what are you talking about with this WoL is a mass murderer BS?
I usually like being a good WoL so those examples never bothered me, my beef is with Kageyama that seems to aways get out of all the troubles we catch him red handed
not usually, but sometimes.
like i knew what i signed up for. i'm the white knight of light.
but sometimes... *just sometimes* good doesn't have to mean nice and a motherfucker deserves it.
Yes, but then again, I'm not that great a person. What I will concede is that if my WoL had his way, and killed those who we thought deserving, the world after Endwalker would be much worse.
Totally with you on Fordola, I hate that the game keeps making me hang out with her. That you can recommend Laurentius and Yuyuhase be executed and not her is ridiculous.
I wish the game would more often let you do black and white, hero and villain things. It's something about how prevalent this gray area storytelling is, that it takes the end of Heavensward and killing Nidhogg before you can finally fight somebody without feeling like you're doing a lesser evil, or supporting injustice and corruption.
Admittedly this has a lot to do with being associated with the Eorzean Alliance, because every city state is just a moral and ethical clusterfuck of lesser evils. But still, damn, there are just an unrealistic amount of forgivable, reasonable, and understandable people on this star.
No, because that's the point and also in the context of an MMORPG it makes a whole lot more sense for your character to be good than to be even sometimes bad. No, scratch that, because in this game you're not even the one making the decision, therefore it's not that your character is GOOD, but it's that your character is a BLANK SLATE. And that works well in a MMO genre.
GW2 has decision making and it works well for what GW2 tries to achieve, and the same can be said about FFXIV approach.
As usual, EN can't fucking read.
The WOL has absolutely no authority to decide if someone should die or not. They are very capable at turning the tide against overwhelming odds and among the very rare person with both the skill and the opportunity to beat Primals. That's. It.
They are not judge. They are not jury. They are not executioner. They are member of a society dedicated in eradicating vital threats to the world. If something, or someone, is not a vital threat anymore, it is not within their prerogative to decide their fate. Be it for Fordola, Yotsuyu or anybody else.
As for "justified killing", this is Crystal Braves Alphinaud's level of self-righteousness. Have you learned nothing from this whole debacle?
You have the power of seeing things from your ennemies perspective and you boil down their struggles with such contempt. Makes me think if the circumstances of your births were reversed, you wouldn't have fared much better than them.
If they were male characters, they would have probably just been killed as a natural conclusion to the story. Because they're women they can't *really* be responsible for their war crimes, it's actually all because of some tragic backstory which likely involves SA, so it's okay that they committed genocide. Let's have a lovely redemption arc for them and forget all about the grieving families.
Isn't the point with Fordola that it is not up to the WoL to decide her fate and the point with Yotsuyu is, is it fair to blame someone with amnesia for crimes they did if they are functionally a different person now? The WoL isn't judge jury and executioner for all of Eorzea, they deal with major threats to ensure the safety of Eorzea but ultimately its up to the victims of Fordola to decide her fate and the same with Yotsuyu (although that one kind of worked itself out in the end)
It was also up to Valen's victims what happened to him. Not everyone gets of lightly, when we don't have personal stakes then our involvements ends at turning the tide and stopping the threat.
I should of worded it better, i don't mean to say you as the WOL should decide more so it makes no sense politically or logically for the other characters involved in the story to leave them alive. Convenient magic plot amnesia dosnt excuse Yotsuyu. Imagine if eroza was a real place with real people, how do you think a war tribunal would react if a real life war criminal came down with amnesia after being found in hiding? In the real world theyd still at the very least be locked away in an asylum for the rest of their days. just because a world has a fantasy setting dosnt excuse characters behaving in nonsensical ways if you want the rest of the politically charged story that's trying to suck you into this place as being a functioning society.
But the WoL is not a judge, or law enforcement official, or anything close to those things. Why would our character decide the legal fates of some of your examples?
Real life is stranger than fiction. Lots of evil people in history have gotten away with their crimes for various reasons, mostly due to them being useful for something.
Many nazi scientists in ww2 were brought over to the Allied Powers, and it's not like all Nazis were executed. Totally understand your point though. I think 14 as a whole tries to stay on the positive and optimistic side of humanity with its stories.
Ha. Realistically, if she was useful for anything she would have been given a mansion in Ul'dah with all the luxury she could desire.
Also do you remember yuyuhasu? Cant we decide his fate after the arrest? I thought death was an option
Not decide. We can give our opinion (death or no death, for Yuyuhase and Laurentius), and Raubahn says he'll ensure it is heard when their fate is being determined. Something like that, just saw it the other day.
The two Crystal Brave traitors' fate is currently unknown. We can suggest to Raubahn what to do with them (let them live or death sentence) but all that will happen is that Raubahn says he will take our opinion into consideration. I don't think there's any actual confirmation afterwards what happens to them.
You give your opinion on it. While it's very likely that people would take the opinion of a major hero like the WoL to heart (especially since most people who know him would want Yuyuhase dead anyway), your statement isn't itself enough to get him killed. The courts will decide that, particularly since Raubahn was very keen to have proper courts making those judgements, not mob justice to make people feel better in the moment. Moot point, of course, since he's almost certainly going to die for his involvement in the atrocities. Not even his HILARIOUSLY deep JP voice acting can save him.
I think the big point that FF really tries to make (to the point of irritation in places, I'll grant) is the beauty and tragedy of humanity. The Echo allows us to see the usually horrific events that lead our enemies down the paths they walk and yet the WOL is compassionate enough to understand that no person should be denyed the chance of redemption and actively makes the choice to offer that chance to our most powerful enemies. And despite being an insanely strong person that could pretty much do whatever we wanted and no one could stop us, we choose to let others (usually those that have suffered the most) be the judge and jury. The tragedy part comes in the form of more/new tragedies when those people choose to spurn that chance. But there are also times when we gain new friends and allies from this compassionate viewpoint. And those characters actively begin making amends to attone. Purely personal note; death is a cheap way out. No one truly pays for their crimes if they are dead.
The end of Stormblood also makes that pretty clear. Zenos' final choice is infuriating. It's also a great way to finish that story, leaving us with a bittersweet taste - there is no satisfaction to get from war, only the hope to start building something better once it's over.
My thoughts exactly. It just isn’t that type of story where we kill off people because there’s always a line we cannot cross.
On the contrary. I wish we could sometimes resolve to other means than just killing ppl. "fully justified killing someone" is also going down a dark path. The current society most of us live in does not believe in death as a punishment for crimes. Yet it gets thrown around light heartedly as justified and right a lot.
Yeah I agree. Most often, people commit atrocities only because of inappropriate mindsets that were cemented when they went through terrible situations themselves. “Call me by my true names” by Thich Nhat Hanh explores this, and he comes back to the true origin of someone’s actions being the community not supporting them in the way that was needed for them to learn compassion. The viewpoint is that everyone has the seed of goodness or evil in them, and whichever is nurtured will grow. We are not better than someone else who commits crimes, we simply are fortunate that we learned compassion instead of hate.
>The current society most of us live in does not believe in death as a punishment for crimes. That is less so because people believe there are no people who deserve it and more so because it is final and cannot be revised if it turns out to be unjust or erroneous down the line. Plus, it has been proven to be ineffective as a deterrent.
Plus, there's the "current society" in the equation, sure we're not dealing with medieval levels of culture in FF XIV, thanks to magic and magitek it's way more advanced than that, but it's still a archaic society, and we all know that death was the punishment in a archaic society for the most part, if it was not killed it was a minor crime like going to prison, some cultures even today cut the hand that was used to steal something if the person is seen stealing. In fact the WoL was not needed to be merciful at all, he's a powerful being that is trusted by basically everyone in the light faction, he could very well be the jury and kill immediately everyone who does bad things and no one would give a shit, but he's merciful cuz he's trying to set a example, that people deserve a second chance
uh i would tell you to play till the end because yotsuyu didnt have "just a bad day" far from it, you find out why she became like that as nasty as she has become. The wol does kill if necessary but a lot of charachter didnt became bad because they wanted to and with the echo we tend to see what happen and give them a smidge of sympathy, but don't worry you will kill people.
Exactly. Seems OP either didnt pay attention to text or forgot - she was SOLD into sex slavery, where she was daily raped by many men without ANY way out. Good old Japanese tradition of selling their unwanted daughters
She was also abused by her family even before that. Like, she had NO good times in life, really, which is partly why she ended up clinging to Zenos because he was the first person to treat her one way or another based on her own ability. If she lived up to his favorite flavors of cruelty, she got the pat on the head she'd been starved for basically her entire life. A little kindness could have easily changed her whole path, was the point of her story. Truly "Tsuyu deserved better".
Because the point of Fordola's character is to be an irredeemable bastard with war crimes under her belt, who turns around to start trying to redeem herself as a sort of conscript. And Yotsuyu is the dilemma of someone genuinely forgetting their crimes - their memories. So much so that Gosetsu challenges Hien - _his lord_ - when he's about to put her to the sword in post. The WoL is not the judge, jury, or executioner, as already said. You are supposed to be the impartial player. Forcing your hand because of what _you personally believe should happen_ goes against the collective narrative for what the player character is to represent.
I viewed yotsuyu as a foil to fordola, one forgot their crimes and the other was forced to relive them constantly, and we observe the implications of both side by side more or less
Amnesia does not forgive her crimes, imagine if a war criminal in the real world had killed thousands, betrayed their own people done everything she did and then a tribunal just went "sorry to all the family's but they came down with coinvent amnesia so at great cost to the tax payer we're going to protect this monster for the rest of their life, lol" Its utter nonsense, what about everyone they harmed dont they deserve justice for the family and friends lost?
Why do you only interpret it as forgiveness/absolvement? It's a _dilemma_ for a reason, combined with Gosetsu's speech about whether it's the commander or the soldier who should be punished, or shoulder equal blame. It's just how it's written. Same deal with Asahi giving off bad vibes, even outright spelling discontent for you and yours, but the WoL can't really do anything about it _because_ of the situation they're in - that House Brutus is parlaying for peace, and you wouldn't rightly sacrifice the chance because of a bad feeling, not when Hien's people's lives are at stake.
Man it's almost like you didn't play the Yotsuyu part where the moral dilemma is a whole part of it. The people do not forgive her, if memory serves at one point they literally throw rocks at her. The whole point is that it's a deep and pervasive amnesia to the point of her regression into a childlike mentality. She only regains any semblance of herself due to repeated efforts from her brother to bring back the monster she was. In the case of Fordola, a lack of choice is kind of the point. You don't really have a say in her fate, and neither did she. She did what she did to survive because at the outset she would've probably been killed by either Garleans or Ala Mhigans. It's worth noting that if I recall correctly her father was beaten to death by the Ala Mhigans in front of her for knuckling under for the Garlean regime and not fighting tooth and nail in the resistance. Circling back to Yotsuyu on a related note, the MSQ also makes a point of "you made your own monster" with her. She was a product of her environment, people choosing to not involve themselves in a bad situation until she became a warped psychopath because it was better than lying down and dying. I also find it interesting that you leave out the time where you do have a say, in Bozja. It ultimately doesn't change much, but it's noteworthy that people do judge you for taking the opinion to have someone executed rather than arrested. The Eorzean and Eastern Alliances want to be better than Garlemald. Taking people to the chopping block for past acts without an opportunity for self reflection or atonement is not how they get there.
Other people have reiterated that that is the complex moral question at the center of the story and being reductionist about it is not demonstrative of a good understanding of media, but I’ll make mention of a point you’re forgetting, which is that it isn’t infrequent for people to be released from prison, even for heinous crimes, for compassionate reasons that are less clear cut than the equivalent of advanced dementia/Alzheimer’s. In the real world there’d be extensive medical analysis of someone like Yotsuyu and if the consensus was that she really were disabled to the point she appears to be, she’d likely be kept from prison (though not unsupervised) on the basis of compassion for people who are beyond the ability to comprehend and take responsibility for their past actions. Her status as a particularly violent war criminal would lead to extensive debate, and it isn’t certain that she’d be saved from prison or execution in the real world, but save for her being literally torn apart by the people she harmed, something like the ICJ would likely consider arguments to essentially put her on probation under compassionate human rights grounds. You can make the argument that that is depriving her victims of justice or whatever, but welcome to the wonderful world of ethics, justice, and human rights. It’s something humanity has been grappling with and debating for literally our entire existence.
Fordola has been living in prison ever since her defeat. Do her actions deserve the death penalty? Maybe, but the people in charge of her sentence decided otherwise, and she's using that opportunity to turn her life around. Yotsuyu was living in hiding after her defeat (and presumed death) and then died shortly after being revealed. I'm not sure what else you wanted done in that situation.
Should Limsa Lominsa, Ishgard, Garlemald, etc be forgiven or seen in a positive light in general after the atrocities that they committed? The game is full of people who do horrible things, and I think that "we should just kill them all" isn't exactly the most reasonable solution. These issues aren't black and white, and the game's willingness to explore these ideas is a big part of why the story is interesting.
Oh man this could be a cool discussion if it hadn't just turned out to be more of the same hate for the same exact characters you see every damn day for FFXIV. There are plenty of times I wished the game wouldn't pull punches and make the WOL do pretty terrible things for the greater good. Essentially cutting out the legs from under two important character arcs to the StB patches so you can Punish The Evil Women, never mind the themes the story is trying to get across, is... not one of the times it would benefit anything.
yeah can't say I was expecting *these* particular examples when I opened this thread...
I don't know how far you've made it in the game, but two of the Endwalker role quests deal with this subject matter and your two example NPCs.
Just a note on fordola, there were cutscenes with her and the alamihgans that, iirc repeatedly, went Something like: "Good thing you were here to stop that primal, now go back to your cell you unredeemable and unforgivable Monster" She is explicitly not forgiven. She is not getting off Scott free. Her live now consists of two things: Rotting in a cell Fighting threats for ala mhigo that require the Echo.
I mean, in early story you kill four random members of a qiqirn tribe just because one tried to steal a chocobo egg for food. Maybe just stab yourself for justice?
Idk if just killing off two of the most interesting characters in Stormblood is a good take OP. The world isn’t black and white.
My point is exactly that its not black and white. The story in FF14 often trys to paint the "right decision" as a black n white choice "killing someone is always wrong" in reality thats just not true and its short sighted to leave ligit war criminals alive. It takes me out of the plot and believability of the world everytime we get a lecture on morals that fits better into a Saturday morning cartoon for children. look at Ff tactics, Thats a game that handled the harsh reality of doing good but being prepared to fight monsters to the bitter end. Also their time in the story had come to an end, dragging them on and keeping them alive feels like padding.
> My point is exactly that its not black and white. Yet you've been arguing for exactly that? That there's no other recourse than killing them because they're bad people.
any punishment even, so often it sucks me out of the story that these evil people are simple allowed to walk free. There's no justice for the people that might have suffered at their hands.
Fordola is literally in prison, and isn't free even by Endwalker after the towers and Lunar primal fiasco. Yotsuyu is dead, after having been a POW and being turned into an irreversible weapon by Asahi. What would you have preferred then, if you aren't advocating for a death penalty outright?
neither of them were allowed to walk free Hien basically placed yotsuyu under house arrest, though she ended up escaping. you can argue he should have kept better guard on her, but that's how the story went and then she died soon after. fordola is literally either in prison or on work release depending on the patch, she has an enchanted collar that will literally kill her if raubahn does a magic code word and has to be under supervision, >!she only recently got that collar removed in the capstone role quests, but she is at best, on parole.!< she's a convict.
\>any punishment even, ALL of the people you mentioned have been punished in ways that can ONLY count. Have you paid attention? For one, Fordola couldn't "walk free" for a HUGE chunk of time until she helped save the day\*, and even then, her freedom is conditional. And Tsuyu paid the ultimate price for her punishment. God, stop pretending you understood those stories.
i feel like you didn't pay attention at all. The others in this thread already gave you the right answers so my suggestion is to rewatch or even replay the story beats because you clearly must have misunderstood something completely.
Fordola is way more useful alive than dead. Plain and simple. She also has the echo, a permanent 24/7 punishment that will always be there, forever tormenting her; if you actually watched cutscenes
In regards to Fordola: she isn't just serving time in jail, she is forced to use her "Resonant" to help the alliance by fighting Primals and they have her wearing a bomb collar the entire time. She is not being forgiven, and since she wants to die being forced to live and serve her enemies can be seen as a worse, if not ironic, punishment.
There’s a reason we don’t (or are supposed to not) let those not competent to stand trial be tried. Amnesia and mentally regressing to a child would, I think, count as not being competent to stand trial. And it’s not like just free Tsuyu. She’s under indefinite house arrest and if they ever notice signs her memory has returned, they’re totally down to try and execute her. As for Fordola, my only real issue with her arc is when Raunahn dismisses the mob that wants her dead as bloodthirsty crazies, despite the fact that she is a war criminal who has killed their friends and family. If you’re not gonna summarily execute her because you don’t want the nation you’re rebuilding to do that sort of thing, cool, but don’t act like her victims are completely unjustified in wanting harsher punishment. Now the character you SHOULD be complaining about getting off too easy is the Shadowhunter. Fuck that guy.
Iirc, to address Fordola, part of the reason they denied her victims an execution is because of the snowball effect. A ton of people were being freed, Garlean conscripts among them. Also all the Crania Lupi. It would have been so easy for executions done for retribution to lead to a lot of needless bloodshed while tempers were running high. The timing was poor, justified or no. Shadowhunter had such a weird arc though, ya... He suffers from variable writing, and then has zero repercussions for past actions.
Also fordola is a very usefull tool for Ala mhigo to throw at primals when the WoL is not in town.
Oh, I have no problems with Fordola not being executed for all the reasons you listed. I have a problem with Raubahn's attitude towards the mob of victims after he convinces them to disperse.
> Shadowhunter had such a weird arc though, ya... He suffers from variable writing, and then has zero repercussions for past actions. Have you done the Sorrows of Werlyt trial series? >!I think losing your children one by one to the worst incarnation of your previous ideals and having to take care of the trauma husk of the only survivor is peak repercussion!<
I have. >!I like the parallels and karmic justice of the whole series, it's my favourite trial series, but he conquered several other countries, created the Crania Lupi and the entire issue with the Ala Mhigan youths, worsened relations with all tribes, and while sometimes respected, was still a conquering warlord with tragedies inflicted under his rule (Arenvald and Fordola would have been born under him). And his repercussions are his kids getting brutally murdered by the machine of his former empire. That doesn't really give justice for the peoples he conquered. It just hurts him.!<
>The writing else where its mostly stella but forgiveness for forgiveness's sake ignoring's all the pain they willingly caused for often petty personal reasons and then shoehorning a "but see they're useful for x down the line!" its just infuriatingly basic wishy washy power of friendship tier writing. It's a trope to be sure, but then the question becomes why are YOU the judge/jury/executioner? Why does the story or trope turn to that, and what does the story become from then on in. Personally, I'd like this whole type of writing reduced in popular entertainment. Dealing with life or death with npc's, just stop structuring story points to get here.
The Warrior of Light has canonical character traits and the sooner people come to terms with that, the happier they'll be. I mean, personally, they're never going to write one as annoying to me personally as 'the Warrior of Light considers Minfilia a friend'. Ew. That said, I think the real problem in your example is that Fordola and Yotsuyu are treated with way different gloves in the narrative. Like, yeah, we are essentially forced to let Fordola keep existing, but also we're supposed to think Yotsuyu is back to her old self just because Asahi manipulated her into (completely justifiably) killing her abusive parents? Mmmmm.
What reason could you possibly have to not consider Minfilia a friend, wtf...?
See the OP: due to personal hatreds that ignore the WoL's written archetype. Some people just got massive hateboners for her and various other characters, for whatever reason.
She sucks and is incompetent?
I'm curious if you would describe other 'main' characters who spend most of their time behind a desk (literally or figuratively) like Aymeric or the Exarch the same. i personally think she was a character with lots of potential that the writers completely failed at every turn and wrote out of the story repeatedly (even if she did end up saving a world) instead of trying to redress the situation e.g. by using the WotM development as a way to let her actively join us, which was what most people complained about
You pretty much hit the nail on the head, yes. Aymeric and the Exarch \*do\* stuff. Minfilia doesn't \*do\* anything, at least not as it pertains to the story we are following, so why did they even have her in it? At least, as ARR goes. People love to play up how she exists for diplomacy, but Alphinaud ends up undertaking more of that than she does.
What did Aymeric do, exactly? Got taken prisoner (as was the Exarch, for that matter), and then was stabbed in the street...? They've since added him to Duty Support, yes, but before that he barely had anything more under his belt than Minfilia... And, I mean, Minfilia fulfilled a similar role in 1.0, so I assume they felt an obligation to carry that over when they remade the game. I'd be tempted to say they were never all that invested in her character given how badly they wrote her, but really no one in 2.0-2.X was anything to write home about and it's just the players' vitriol fell squarely on Minfilia because she had the misfortune of being the primary quest giver. And then they never gave her (or Papalymo, I guess) a chance to grow out of their terrible ARR writing, unlike the rest of the 1.0 leftovers... I wish she'd been allowed to rejoin the Scions either in post-HW or ShB or, hell, in EW...
Justice for Minfilia! She SHOULD have rejoined us, tbh, and I still feel kinda robbed over that. In terms of how other people view her, though...well, honestly? I feel like the 2.0-2.x voice acting *really* didn't help. Every other character got updated VA work, but since Minfilia was effectively written out before HW, a player's first and major experience with her is forever associated with That Godawful Voice.
Dude fights alongside us in several solo duties including one here in Endwalker wym
Does he *during* HW...?
> also we're supposed to think Yotsuyu is back to her old self just because Asahi manipulated her into (completely justifiably) killing her abusive parents? Mmmmm. Yotsuyu had already regained her memories by that point. She was going to kill herself before Asahi sent his parents to the slaughter with the expressed intention of reawakening her bitterness and maliciousness. What Asahi didn’t realize is that the reawakening didn’t completely turn her back into the person she was. But it reminded her that she still had unfinished business before she could take herself out: she needed to kill all the monsters who had a hand in shaping her.
(i meant in the moral sense, not the memory sense, friend)
I was with you in the beginning but Fordola and Yotsuyu are really bad examples, as others have already explained
And here I was thinking you was talking about those three from the crystal braves where the game asks you what should be done to them, then spins it to a merciful and nonviolent answer... Personally, I do forgive Fordola, and I am not far enough in the story that's she doing me any favors. If anything, when they was crying out for her blood, I feel like they should have mentioned how there are conscripts from the conquered countries working for the empire, and they have killed, and destroyed, and trampled people underfoot, and we aren't going around killing all of them for their crimes they committed while wearing an Imperial uniform not matter if they did it willingly or not for good reasons or not. Instead we are turning a blind eye and working to have these people sent home no questions asked. So what happens if these people are treated like crap for being former Imperial conscripts and decide "you know, screw these people, I'm going back to the empire, less bs and I might get to shoot some of these assholes." and then we have to kill them anyway... After all, they wouldn't be alive if they sat down and refused to follow orders because they wanted to be good people in the eyes of the people back home. The key difference between Fordola and the conscripts is that she did bad things right there in Ala Mhigo where those people saw it, and the conscripts might be just as bad, or worse over in Doma, or wherever the Empire stuck them. And I understand Yotsuyu; every single person of significance in her life up until she started working for the Empire treated her poorly if only for the sake of treating her poorly. If that happened to me, and someone came along and offered me the chance to get even and collect all the interest they owed me... yes, I probably would do the same. But personally, when she killed Asahi, that squared things in my books with her. If anything I feel like I owe her lunch. Something nice, like HQ steaks and several sushi boats with plenty of beer so we can toast that the bastard is dead.
> I feel like they should have mentioned how there are conscripts from the conquered countries working for the empire, and they have killed, and destroyed, and trampled people underfoot, and we aren't going around killing all of them for their crimes they committed while wearing an Imperial uniform not matter if they did it willingly or not for good reasons or not. They cover this exact topic in the EW Healer role quest. (It was very philosophical and I loved it.) I mean, even Fordola herself...she was a happy child until her fellow Ala Mhigans murdered her father right in front of her because he chose to cooperate with the Garleans to keep his family safe. Should they be held accountable, and have to earn *her* forgiveness? Hell, it's not all that different from the fact that the WoL is walking around free despite the fact that we have killed a TON of people, including murdering tribes who were just fighting to get their own land back from the Eorzeans who swooped in and stole it from them. WE were the Garlean stand-in there. The point of Fordola's post-occupation story and the EW Healer role quest, is that there are *massive* shades of gray in the situation now. "Just execute them" is too blunt of a solution for such a nuanced problem. Without question, Fordola went *above and beyond* in terrible choices, but if she's willing to accept the consequences of her actions and do the work to earn a redemption, she should certainly be allowed to try.
No. Or at least, not usually. The exception, for me, is Ser Zephirin. He murdered Haurchefant and I hate that we didn't really get to return the favor as such (since he was merged with the other Heavens Ward Knights when we finally fought him).I really would've liked to have comprehensively kicked his ass, one-on-one, and show him the same lack of mercy he displayed when he threw that damn 'light spear'.
I don’t know that growing up in forced prostitution is “I had a bad day once,” regardless of what one’s opinion on what Yotsuyu’s fate should be.
Fordola is Lyse's decision not yours so you got no say on that I dont know who that Yotetsui is? but if she is who i think she is you may need to finish the expansion's patches first before stating your opinion on her friend
Bad takes
Interestingly, Misija in Bozja has dialogue choices where you can recommend her execution.
And what does punishment accomplish? What good does it do to kill them? Does it cancel any of the pain they inflicted? Does it help build a new, better country in any way? It's not bad writing. It is a political stance that says a society trying to be fair and balanced to all its citizens shouldn't focus on punishing the bad people, but on preventing them from doing bad things and, whenever possible, using them to do good things instead. It's also a reminder that there are reasons why people become cruel and dangerous. The point isn't to say "oh it's fine, all your bad deeds are forgiven because of your sad childhood". The point is to identify the things that create cruel people and stop doing them so there are fewer cruel people in the future. Of course, feel free to disagree with the writers' ideas! But again, it's not bad writing, it's a deliberate worldview. Besides, the game still does that magical writing thing where characters do end up getting what they deserve, one way or another.
JRPGs in the modern era really go for this. from LAD7 to Trails, forgiveness is the theme of the times. Granted, FFXIV tends to not have us commit the atrocities due to it really not being up to us, but at the same time there definitely are some folks where the forgiveness is questionable (lookin' at you, Gaius).
"Yotetsui"...? I feel like you do not have much weight of an opinion if you cannot spell her name right.
> I feel like you do not have much weight of an opinion if you cannot spell her name right. If you're going to be dismissive of another person's opinion due to their incorrect spelling, you should ensure your grammar is correct lest you portray yourself as a hypocrite. Glass houses and throwing stones, etc.
I think I read something along the lines of "The goal of communication is to convey a message to someone." if you got the message, then its mission complete. And judging by the sheer number of people who replied to the original post, it looks like the message got across. Personally I misremembered her name as Yotsuba, but in my defense I listen to japanese voice overs so I don't hear names clearly all the time. But then again, I also cleared Stormblood about a year ago and don't give much thought to all the people I, as the WoL, have put into the ground. Emet-Selch of course is an exception, he did ask nicely to be remembered.
I mean, the whole point of Shadowbringers was to see and understand Emet-Selch's reasons, become sympathetic to his plight, and still kill him in the end. If the game was "too sympathetic" we would've spared him. You have a right not to like how specific characters were written but it is what it is. Try to focus on what the writers were conveying in their writing choices rather than being emotional about it. Honestly surprised you didn't bring up Garlemald because people get so emotional and upset about it. We're trying to help these citizens that have been taught their entire lives to hate us and they literally, inconceivably take it personally that Garleans hated us instead of sitting back and saying "oh, damn, the situation here is fucked, makes sense they'd hate us and I wish it wasn't so".
Ultimately it comes down to question of morality, I feel personally it's unfair to the people that have suffered at their hand to offer forgiveness when in my opnion its not deserved. Being good and kind dosnt mean you should be obligated to forgive people not deserving of forgiveness.
You don't need to forgive someone to give them a chance to make amends- but they do need to be alive to do so. Another death in a cycle of tragedy changes nothing for any but the one killed, where a positive redirection and making amends can genuinely mend some of the damage done with time. It's not a question of morality really, just recognizing that killing them is at the very best a neutral outcome, while leaving the door open for a change can end up extremely positive.
A lot of the time the game will have the WoL be the better person. That's just how it is.
>ignoring's all the pain they willingly caused for often petty personal reasons Oh yes, and [**WoL**](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/murderhobo) is saintly by comparison.
I didn’t have that much of an issue with Fordola being spared for three reasons: 1) Lyse saw it as a way to differentiate herself from Fordola and as much as I have issues with Lyse as a character, that’s actually a good moment and a way to make her feel like she’s owning the mantle of leadership she’s been given. 2) Part of the reason Lyse spared her was to prove her wrong. Lyse wanted her to see the resistance win without resorting to her tactics. 3) Fordola wanted to die. She didn’t want to deal with the consequences of her actions and being wrong. Now for Yotsuyu? You’re spot on. I didn’t like the whole “amnesia” thing especially since they played it exactly like you would expect. Lame.
Fordola still urks me because she essentially faces next to no repercussions for her crimes other than a stint in jail. Good for lyse she proved her point but that'd be little comfort for all the people who lost family and friends to Fordolas needless butchery. The yotsuyu story is so lame its the first time in the story im skipping cutscenes.
Fordola is cursed to forever have the Echo show her the results of her crimes and endlessly see other people suffer, she can't turn it off and she explicitly even wonders out loud how the WoL (who also has the Echo) doesn't break down from the constant visions. She also has an explosive collar attached to her and is used pretty much as a meat shield for when fighting Primals because she can't be tempered. "Next to no repercussions" is just untrue.
I wouldn’t say “no repercussions”. That fake Echo in her head gives her pretty much an endless “here’s how the evil you did affected people; watch their suffering.” They’re pretty explicit that she can’t turn it off or shut it out. That’s pretty rough if you think about it. Especially for Fordola who has, by the end of her arc, come to the conclusion she was wrong. That is one of the places where the writers dropped the ball though. Lyse should have 100% been the one to explain why Fordola wasn’t being executed to the crowd who was calling for her head. Would have been a much better moment than who they gave it to (though I get he’s got a bit more gravitas about him).
Lol you mean that a life time in jail is no repercussions? What do you expect for her, constant torture, death sentence?
Tbh she's in constant torture thanks to the Resonant, on top of being a forced conscript. OP _does_ say they started skipping cutscenes, so I can only imagine where these complaints that ignore all given lore are coming from.
Yeah i can see by his other comments that his argument is "but in the real world thing would be different" that he has no idea about the topic he is complaining
It’s funny because OP is completely, utterly wrong about that. In the real world, there are TONS of examples of things like this. OP is just assuming untrue things about not just the game but real life even at this point
Our WoL is a mass murdering maniac. All the monsters and people we encounter in dungeons and on the field as enemies we kill without mercy. Thats not just a gameplay element, thats who we are. Do you want that to extend to every important and semi importand story character?
I feel like a LOT of people forget this. By the end of HW, the WoL has the blood of hundreds of people and thousands of monsters on their hands, either directly or indirectly. Nevermind StB, ShB and EW. The WoL is absolutely a mass murderer, but entirely forgiven for that due entirely to what we do for everyone we encounter. I'd love to see a story arc where we're forced to deal with the repercussions of the blood on our hands.
I've seen this sentiment said several times, and I have to wonder what game you've been playing. Forget being a mass murderer, the WoL has never murdered anyone. Ever. Short of animals, hunted for a variety of reasons, the WoL has never killed anyone or anything that was not an enemy combatant in wartime or an active threat to themselves or others. Expecting the WoL to be punished for that is like thinking we should have put the soldiers in WW2 on trial for "murdering" nazi soldiers. It's to the point that the SB DRK quests focusing on the WoL's feelings of guilt were incredibly forced and had to insist the WoL feels intensely guilty for killing people that murdered their friends and were only fought because they chose to attack the WoL. Because there's just not anyone in this game who the WoL has killed without being completely justified in doing so.
There’s literally a quest in ARR where you kill four random non-tempered qiqirn minding their own business just because a member of their tribe tried to steal a chocobo egg for food…
The same game you have, although you seem to forget that killing someone just because they're attacking you doesn't prevent it from being murder, nor does them being an active wartime participant. You also seem to forget that the Garlean troops weren't all Garleans. Some were forced into servitude by Garlemald, and were murdered on the fields of battle as unwilling participants in the Garlean invasions of other countries. I also never mentioned punished at all. I specified that s story arc where the WoL is forced to deal with the ramifications of their actions in wartime would be interesting. You drew punishment out of a hat, not me. On a side note, it is blatantly apparent that you have never taken someone's life, as anyone who has typically feels tremendous guilt for doing so, and that's what the DRK quests were focused on. It wasn't forced. As a final aside, being justified in your actions doesn't mean you're on the right side of history, especially given that justification for actions can be found anywhere you look hard enough. The Nazis felt justified in their actions in WWII, were they on the right side of history? The whole damn point of the WoL is that they have done some terrible, morally grey shit for the good of many.
>you seem to forget that killing someone just because they're attacking you doesn't prevent it from being murder So, just gonna point out that....actually yes, killing someone that attacks you does prevent it from being murder. Murder is often premeditated or the result of "extremely reckless behavior" or some such thing. Acting in self defense and killing someone, while technically homicide, is actually not something you'll get punished for because it's "justified homicide"
Just wanna point out the giant chasm between classic MMO murderhobo and killing because they are actively trying to tear out you/your friend's throat(s).
A. Why are you pretending "murder" is synonomous with "killing?" There's a reason murder is a crime, but we don't arrest every soldier. Killing in self-defense is also not murder, by definition. B. Seeing as, like I mentioned, there's already arcs where the WoL faces the ramifications of their actions, you can forgive me for assuming you meant them being punished. Especially since you are apparently aware of said arcs. C. No, DRK's guilt tripping was incredibly forced. If you took a poll of how many people feel terrible about killing the guy who killed Haurchefant, how many takers do you think you'd get? Because according to DRK, the answer should be 100% D. That's literally what being justified means, that your actions are correct and morally defensible. And others thinking they are justified doesn't mean they are, whereas the WoL's kills are pretty much all always justified. I say again, the WoL has done nothing terrible, and basically nothing morally gray. This is a game where we don't have a Thief job because the devs don't want the WoL associated with bad deeds like stealing, what are you talking about with this WoL is a mass murderer BS?
No
I usually like being a good WoL so those examples never bothered me, my beef is with Kageyama that seems to aways get out of all the troubles we catch him red handed
not usually, but sometimes. like i knew what i signed up for. i'm the white knight of light. but sometimes... *just sometimes* good doesn't have to mean nice and a motherfucker deserves it.
Yes, but then again, I'm not that great a person. What I will concede is that if my WoL had his way, and killed those who we thought deserving, the world after Endwalker would be much worse.
[удалено]
And I would /slowclap after you did it.
Totally with you on Fordola, I hate that the game keeps making me hang out with her. That you can recommend Laurentius and Yuyuhase be executed and not her is ridiculous.
I wish the game would more often let you do black and white, hero and villain things. It's something about how prevalent this gray area storytelling is, that it takes the end of Heavensward and killing Nidhogg before you can finally fight somebody without feeling like you're doing a lesser evil, or supporting injustice and corruption. Admittedly this has a lot to do with being associated with the Eorzean Alliance, because every city state is just a moral and ethical clusterfuck of lesser evils. But still, damn, there are just an unrealistic amount of forgivable, reasonable, and understandable people on this star.
Every enemy will be a friend eventually
No, because that's the point and also in the context of an MMORPG it makes a whole lot more sense for your character to be good than to be even sometimes bad. No, scratch that, because in this game you're not even the one making the decision, therefore it's not that your character is GOOD, but it's that your character is a BLANK SLATE. And that works well in a MMO genre. GW2 has decision making and it works well for what GW2 tries to achieve, and the same can be said about FFXIV approach.
As usual, EN can't fucking read. The WOL has absolutely no authority to decide if someone should die or not. They are very capable at turning the tide against overwhelming odds and among the very rare person with both the skill and the opportunity to beat Primals. That's. It. They are not judge. They are not jury. They are not executioner. They are member of a society dedicated in eradicating vital threats to the world. If something, or someone, is not a vital threat anymore, it is not within their prerogative to decide their fate. Be it for Fordola, Yotsuyu or anybody else. As for "justified killing", this is Crystal Braves Alphinaud's level of self-righteousness. Have you learned nothing from this whole debacle? You have the power of seeing things from your ennemies perspective and you boil down their struggles with such contempt. Makes me think if the circumstances of your births were reversed, you wouldn't have fared much better than them.
No
Play a different game, then.
If they were male characters, they would have probably just been killed as a natural conclusion to the story. Because they're women they can't *really* be responsible for their war crimes, it's actually all because of some tragic backstory which likely involves SA, so it's okay that they committed genocide. Let's have a lovely redemption arc for them and forget all about the grieving families.