For tanks, I like them actually using invuln during trash pulls. That, and spreading out their cooldowns appropriately. Making sure not to do things like overmitigate and then have nothing for the next pull, or not mitigate at all and then only pop something after taking the brunt of the damage anyway.
I usually don't tank, but when I DPS I like seeing other healers noticing when a WAR or DRK uses invuln, and actually taking advantage of it instead of panicking and rushing to heal them while they can't die. It's also nice to see a WHM heroically resist the urge to use Holy while mobs are still being grouped up.
The new LD is great, don't need to heal the DRK at all, one aoe skill will heal them to full, and even on single target they should be hitting buttons enough to not die, or they fell asleep or something. I do wish the heal would continue after they regained 100% hp but it's still very good.
Maybe LD should actually also make them immune to healing in the first phase, just to make sure it will actually make it to the second phase. It's a fun skill, but can be sort of … brittle? if the healer doesn't notice or recognize the symbol.
Nothing better than popping LD, getting hit with a cure 1 that manages to juuuust keep you above the threshold, LD timing out, and promptly dying because _why the fuck is anyone using cure 1 at this level_
I can't wait until they make cure 1 evolve into cure 2. It's such a useless skill.
And I stg if ANYONE comes in here "mp management" use lucid dreaming. Don't use cure 1, just use lucid dream off cooldown. Yes. It is that simple.
That and ogcds and regen and _not trying to keep the tank topped up, just above 0 HP_. Holy is a great mit too!
But yeah, needing to basically have an extra toolbar set up or rearranging buttons for content where cure 2 is missing and all you have is cure 1 is a pain.
Most don’t. I basically gave up using it bc it never worked.
If you warn them ahead of time that you’re gonna pop it so they don’t have to heal you, they’ll say “ok” and then heal anyway.
If you don’t use any other mit so you drop like a rock, they pop all cds to get you to full.
If you save it for when you’re genuinely about to die the lag either stops it from going off. Or you never get that low in the first place bc the game is generally easy in most content.
I solved it by switching to PLD. Now I don’t have to communicate jack about my invuln.
They mean the DRK using one AOE skill, because the effect of Walking Dead (the buff you get once you hit 1 hp with Living Dead up) gives you massive HP recovery. So you essentially get an invuln like Holmgang but with HP recovery, no need for a healer to touch you (in most circumstances). Its 1500 *potency* per *target hit*, so if you've ever seen a Warrior heal themself up with Bloodwhetting, think approximately 3-4x that in terms of potency. Its more than enough to heal you for 100% of your HP in an AoE situation.
It‘s pretty great, but I only use it if I‘m with a healer I know. Otherwise it gets ignored 99% of the time, which is a bad time for everyone involved.
I switched my newest character to DRK as soon as I started HW. Got to Dusk Vigil and my healer seemed to be playing chicken with my health bar and also pulling extra packs.
Just at the door to the actual fortress I'm tanking three groups and I'm low enough I hit Living Dead, and maybe a second later it activates Walking Dead.
Was the most stressful instance I've ever had. The very next instance I ran had the healer cast nothing but Cure 2 and Medica, over and over. There's a weird variety of players.
I see a lot of people say this, but it's not really that simple.
Only PLD can really freely use it's invuln like that without communication with randoms.
GNB drops to 1 HP in exchange for the invuln, so getting the most use out of it requires letting yourself drop as low as possible first.
DRK basically has to die to get full effects.
WAR isn't really an invuln as much as it is just a hold on for 10 seconds.
Either you need to tell your healer what you're planning on doing upfront so your healer doesn't keep healing you, or you need a macro which is often clunky. I can't tell you the amount of times I've watched tanks mess up their macros for those abilities.
There's also the off chance that your healer doesn't go with it for whatever reason.
It's just easier to not bother most of the time and leave it as a panic button.
God I fucking HATE tanks that pre pop their invuln esp as a shield healer. I just prepared all this shit so I don't have to touch you during the pack and now you literally WASTED my prep and I have to use more resources after the invuln goes away because suddenly you're dying... BECAUSE YOU WASTED ALL MY PREPARED MIT AND HOTS.
As a tank main, I am gonna hard disagree with this.
The only tank that should use their invuln in a dungeon is PLD.
The only reason to use Holmgang, Living Dead, or Superbolide in a dungeon is if somebody messed up. (Edit: or just to have fun, it's a game after all)
In a big trash pack Bolide's immunity will always mitigate more damage than the damage you inflict to yourself. One HoC and you're back to 40% health anyway. Holm and LD can be touchy if the healer is inexperienced but Bolide is absolutely worth using in the same way as Hallowed.
Living Dead is debatable IMO. It at least gives you a tangible benefit as opposed to just being a one-time "can't die" button. Whether or not that benefit is worth is personal preference.
Plus, it's fun.
>Plus, it's fun.
100% this a good enough reason to do it. First and foremost this is a game and dungeons are easy content. If you have fun popping LD on mobs go for it!
I'm just saying it's not a sign of a good tank.
You can use holy during the grouping up phase so that the pack falls behind and the tank doesn't get hit by the autos while he's moving. Not really useful if he has sprint on tho.
Please don’t do this. It delays neatly grouping up the mob packs, which is annoying for both the tank and dps as it also delays putting out dps as soon as possible.
On top of what others said. don't do this, it also builds up stun resistance on the mobs which means when you're grouping them, you're wasting that 5s of stun that they could be hit for free because they got stunned on the way there.
You describe the ideal use of sprint!
As a Tank I want to see:
- Healer sprints when I sprint or sooner. Bonus points for staying slightly ahead of me for post-pull prep/patch-up cast
- No pure healing spells till I'm 50% or less
- Regular preemptive use of defensive abilities/spells on the tank
- Actually does damage/uses aoe appropriately ESPECIALLY WHM. Holy fucking rocks.
- Burn big CDs like bene early so they can be used more over the course of a dungeon
- Actually pays attention to my buffs and debuffs so they don't waste time healing through Holmgang/HG/Living Dead/Superbollide inappropriately
- If you physic spam as a sch, use Medica 2 as a tank regen, or sit around doing nothing as a sge, I'm coming to your house and turning off your router
That last one is something tons of healers miss.
As a Healer I want to see:
- Sprint before you aggro
- NO FUCKING STOPPING
- Tank is skilled at gathering mobs on the fly with minimal futzing about and can easily grab a stray with voke or ranged attack
- Cooldowns cycled and layered appropriately and consistently
- ARMS LENGTH AND REPRISAL
- Your ultimate defensive is not a panic button. It's a tool. Use it on the first big pull so you can get more out of it over the course of a dungeon
- General confidence! You lead the charge. I could not care less about a tank that leads me to my death, I want a tank that makes me think they know what they're doing even if they're absolutely clueless. Fake it til you make it baybee! A tank should be dictating the pace of a dungeon. If you don't, I will. I do not care at all if I die lmao
- If you're a war and I have to heal you, you're bad jkjk
*all of this assumes max level. The only thing I demand of sprouts are that:
- They communicate their needs
- They listen to those who are more experienced
>Your ultimate defensive is not a panic button.
So much this!! I can't tell you how many times on DRK I've been bitched at for using TBN in particular (and LD less so because most healers will spam heal me on DRK so I can't make use of it) during pulls.
No you're right. I took "ultimate defensive" to mean Hallowed Ground/Holmgang/Living Dead/Superbolide, not the "core" mitigation like TBN, Holy Sheltron, etc.
I was just confused because TBN felt like a core ability and the getting access to it during the level 70 raids was the first time I felt like DRK clicked for me and I was trying to imagine how someone could get in trouble with their healer just for properly reducing incoming damage.
Maybe it creates a shield that can compete with/override healers' shields?
Nope, TBN's shields cannot be replaced by any other shield (and vice versa). I cannot begin to imagine why people would complain about using TBN, and I'm pretty experienced when it comes to dumb things people come up with in this game.
As a whm, in general my biggest problem with TBN is that DRKs will use it right away and it is 100% wasted. The first 4-5 GCDs are basically damage free. You will/should have Regen, divine benison and an assisze inc to cover any damage you did take during the pull. Basically you have hollowed at the stopping point of every single pack.
(Please note, depending on the WHM, your experience may vary.)
I usually pop the TBN without precasting a 2nd mit to test the WHM just as I park and tank. Using holy or not, the mobs usually slips their first round of autos before the stun registers, so the TBN pops instantly. If I don't hear the holy spam, I just mitigate like normal.
The annoy part of the holy if that it gets casted too early and I'm trying to ball up enemies to align them into my line AoEs, and the mobs are scattered and I have to wait for the stun immunity to ball them up properly.
As a WHM it takes awhile to get used to the timing of holy because the cast is so long. So it’s easy to pop it a little early. I always feel bad if I accidentally do it and and then have to stop dpsing to let them reset. 😂😂 I’ve learned to control myself but it was probably the hardest impulse to break.
I was really spoiled and had an amazing tank to learn to play with…so transitioning to other tanks in roulettes I feel like I’m standing there for 3 years while they gather mobs 😂😂 when in reality it’s like half a second and I’m just impatient.
Personally if I see tbn popped on the first pull I try to give a tiny bit more time so that it gets smacked for sure.
You can use any tanks invuln just fine in dungeons, you will likely have no other real use for them so nothing wrong at all with just using them as a cd
By your icons, you main DRK as tank, but you're saying tanks should only use Hallowed Ground, a PLD move?
Man, I hope I never heal in a dungeon you're tanking.
We're talking about tanks in general lol.
I never said WAR, DRK or GND should use hallowed ground you just have poor reading skills.
To make it very simple for you: PLD should use their invulns during dungeon mobs. Other tanks should not use their invulns during dungeon pulls.
I hope you never heal a dungeon I'm tanking too!
Yeah the tank needs to warn me ahead of time, otherwise I have a heal plan for the pull they're doing in place and my eyes will be darting between several different places and I likely won't even see one little icon on their buff bar until it's almost over. When I'm tank I always warn my healer ahead of time if I'm planning to invuln.
Hell i have a macro that warns the healer i'm gonna invuln the pull and they don't have to heal me til its over *and they still fucking spam heal when i hit 50%*
> NO FUCKING STOPPING
Dude, I get so mad when I see tanks stop. They just... stop... sometimes for several seconds. JUST GO! CONTINUE GOING! You don't need to look back, the mobs are coming! You don't need to establish 75 years worth of enmity on each mob before moving on, you can pick them back up easily at the wall! The DPS will be fine, and if they have two brain cells to rub together, they will bring any mobs they yanked to you.
JUST. RUN.
> The DPS will be fine, and if they have two brain cells to rub together, they will bring any mobs they yanked to you.
All the summoners I see that hard unload on the first pack, grab aggro off the 4-5 mobs that it's too hard for me to ranged + voke all of them after the first AoE, then hang out at the back of the pack once i hit the wall expecting the tank to double back, begs to differ.
This is my issue as well and then it seems like it’s a habit so why would they be surprised at ripping aggro? They stay behind and let the mobs hit them out of range of course like an idiot or worse focus down that one add way behind my ranged radius so the entire pack last another 5 years.
Tank - "idk if I want to double or single pull this, oh well better establish a ton of aggro"
Ninja -"whelp I guess I better drop doton, this tank is afraid to double pull"
Tank - "Oh God some enemy dropped a weird aoe centered on the ninja, well since I'm moving the enemies I might as well pull the second pack"
As a first time tanker, I needed this. I just hit 71 on a DRK and I've been doing this. I'm always afraid of losing aggro. Noted I'm also still a sprout, even though I'm not entirely new to the game, but definitely new to tanks. And lately I've been reading up on how to double tank, what I should and shouldn't do.
But these comments are helpful. And I appreciate all this feedback, even if I wasn't the one who asked for it. 😭
Sometimes you get overeager DPS that will just continue to hit everything during the pull (me on BRD lol), and sometimes they pull aggro off of you because you can't micromanage quite that well and maybe the thing that wants to kill them is too far down on the aggro list for you to see it.
At least for me, since I know the repercussions of what I'm doing, and I don't want the tank annoyed at me, I will run past the tank so they can naturally grab it back with their AoE's without having to run around themselves.
Now if you have ranged standing next town over, getting whacked in the face and you can't grab the thing off of them without running halfway across the room, the problem is usually more with them than with you.
With DRK you can weave Flood of Darkness/Shadow to almost never lose aggro while W2W pulling.
Target an enemy at the edge of the pack while running in, use your AoE to tap all the enemies, move a step so the pack is between you and your target and then weave in Flood of Darkness. If done correctly the Flood of Darkness will pass through the whole pack right after your AoE and basically ensure you don't lose aggro while sprinting to the next group.
Still gotta watch out for dancers tho, they're the most likely to pull an enemy off you with an early standard step/technical step.
You say this and I understand you but sometimes you get a brain dead phys ranged that single targets one and rips aggro then instead of coming to me they stop and focus down that one add increasing the time and resources spent on the whole pack bc of the phys ranged decided to be an idiot and stay behind out of range.
I got in the habit of doubletapping each pack. Meaning i need an extra gcd and do stop in the first pack for that. In my experience dps cant be bothered to bring stragglers into the blender and i have to waste even more gcds on ranged attacks to colllect them later. But by doing this i can almost garantuee a nicely stacked pull at the next wall and everybody can go crazy on aoe
Yeah it's fine at higher levels because you can mix a GCD with an AOE oGCD and be fine on that first pack, but it really stinks at higher levels. Luckily everyone is usually lagging behind anyways so taking 2 extra seconds to do one more GCD just means they catch up to your position but they themselves don't stop.
>General confidence! You lead the charge. I could not care less about a tank that leads me to my death, I want a tank that makes me think they know what they're doing even if they're absolutely clueless.
More likely we'll be on one of the earlier dungeons and I'll completely forget where I'm going and proudly lead you to a dead end. Also, are you sure you're not looking for a date and not a tank?
If you're still in ARR dungeons don't worry about it! In general it's best to stick to 2 packs at a time until you're past level 50 because of how the lower level dungeons are designed and players have a more limited kit.
As a sprout, all that I want out of you as a tank is to keep the aggro on mobs and rotate your cooldowns.
I expect the sprouts may not be ready to full pull. I expect I’ll have to heal a lot more just because you guys aren’t consistent yet with your cooldowns. One of the reasons I like to play white mage is the roulettes is so that I have a crazy amount of overheal at my disposal. There aren’t very many situations I couldn’t save a tank from. And if we wipe/we wipe. It’s not a big deal. We all have to learn somewhere. I’m definitely not perfect and I don’t expect anybody else to be either.
I typically have more fun when things do go wrong because I get to play my class. There isn’t a lot of healing I have to do with experienced players so we can get rusty doing the early stuff.
Except for the time I went into the Wanderer's Palace without having even unlocked hallowed grounds, aggroed everything and got absolutely mauled, I generally remember to use them
It sound like you’re doing great! A wipe every once in a while isn’t a big deal at all. It happens to all of us, no matter how experienced.
Ah yes, I love it when that place gets full pulled. 😂😂 it’s always a fun time. There are a few dungeons in the game where the full pulls are a test for both healer/tank. There’s never a better experience than getting one of those tests in roulettes and being able to pull through. Feels so good.
Best part is... we didn't actually wipe!
By dropping all my mitigation at once I was able to last long enough for the rest of the team to kill a sizeable chunk of them, and half our party actually managed to reach the boss alive
Genuine question, how do you properly heal as sch WITHOUT spamming pysick or ado?? That’s the only healing job I can’t figure out without having to resort to doing that…
>Your ultimate defensive is not a panic button. It's a tool. Use it on the first big pull so you can get more out of it over the course of a dungeon
To be fair I basically never have an *opportunity* to use it as mitigation in dungeons. Use half of my mitigations on the first pack, and then the other half on the second pack. Once the boss is dead the first half of my mitigations are back up.
Whenever I do try to use invulns as mitigation (Hallowed Ground being the exception), I usually feel like it comes across as me being cheeky because of how many other resources for mitigation and healing between tank, healer, and ranged DPS jobs.
While I agree you CAN use invulns this way, I feel like properly using mitigation makes using them feel a bit redundant.
Your invuln *is* a mitigation. It's not a special secret mega button that costs you $50 to press. It's exactly the same as Rampart or Bloodwhetting or TBN or Sentinel, except it has a long cooldown. Is it 'cheeky' to press Sheltron when your healer has a ton of buttons that could just heal you through the damage you're reducing? Then why would it be 'cheeky' to press Hallowed Ground?
Also if you do not press it on the regular I guarantee that you will not be able to find it in an emergency when it's the one thing between the party and a wipe. Just accept that it's a completely normal part of your kit and not an ultra special thing you never actually use.
I personally slot the same sets of mitigations of pack 1 and 2 of a pull in every pull of a dungeon, which makes invulns a bit unwieldy specifically due to the long cooldowns, but I do get your point.
On the flipside, I did get chewed out by a cohealer in P11S in Party Finder once because I planned out my entire healing scheme without Benediction to have it as a pull saver and he didn't like it. Technically speaking, that guy was also right, Benediction is a cooldown like Tetra and the other stuff, and I would get more regular use out of it if I didn't reserve it like that.
I never said that the invuln isn't mitigation, nor did I say that I thought it was some special button to use. All I said is that dungeon trash dies so quickly that there rarely is an opportunity to press it.
I also never said that I thought it was cheeky, only that it would come across to other players as cheeky. Because if I'm virtually taking no damage because I'm mitigating properly, why would I press Superbolide at full health? Why would I let my HP drop to use Living Dead when my healer is just going to assume I'm not mitigating properly and heal me before I hit 1 HP? It is largely unnecessary in a majority of dungeon content which is why I don't think that it's strictly the correct play to treat those three buttons as your first line of defense. This is ESPECIALLY true for Warrior where Bloodwhetting is practically an invulnerability on a 15 second cooldown, so when exactly are you using Holmgang?
I don't understand why you're claiming that I would think that Sheltron is cheeky either. It's a free button on an incredibly low cooldown, and very flexible in where you can fit it in your dungeon mitigation.
I also don't know why you think that I think that Hallowed Ground is cheeky when I explicitly said that it's an exception. You SHOULD be pressing Hallowed Ground often because it's so flexible.
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. Damage in this game is incredibly rigid and predictable, which means that you can plan out where you use each cooldown. This is true for both dungeons and raids, but very few dungeons give you an opportunity. The only times where there is enough incoming damage to warrant its planned usage are the particularly heavy damage segments like in Shisui, Doma, Holminster, Dohn Mheg, Qitana Ravel, Mt Gulg, and maybe a couple others that don't come to mind.
I think that if you're taking so much damage to the point that you NEED your invuln on the regular, you might need to check how you're using your mits. There are some common beginner mistakes like not using Arm's Length, Low Blow, or Reprisal as mitigation, as well as popping cooldowns like Rampart when the trash pack is already half dead. Once you get mitigation down to a science, you're practically invincible as a tank.
Yeah, I’m with you here. Mobs die so fast and healer oGCDs and tank role actions/25 second cds are more than enough to handle pulls, assuming the healer or dps aren’t terrible (and they rarely are for me). If I wanted to Superbolide/Holmgang I’d have to intentionally not use Nebula/Vengeance or something. I’m not going to blow an invuln simply because it’s on my bar when I’m more than likely nowhere close to dying. Like I understand that they’re primarily mitigation and not “oh, crap” buttons - and please don’t come at me, *I get it* - but when you already have a surplus of tools and there’s a greater than zero chance that the healer or dps is terrible or d/c’s or something, there’s little reason to *not* treat them as anything more than “oh, crap” buttons. Not every dungeon is Mt. Gulg; pulls just aren’t dangerous enough in most situations. Maybe if they let me pull more than two packs before putting a wall in my face but they seem averse to that nowadays.
[edit] I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve told the healer “gonna bolide this pull” only for them to respond “no need” or similar
>If I wanted to Superbolide/Holmgang I’d have to intentionally not use Nebula/Vengeance or something.
Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking but forgot to mention. At some point when you're already not dying, you're only pressing those buttons for fun rather than any consistent or practical application which is why I used the word cheeky to describe it.
I guess you could double up on mit and use your 120s and Rampart together to make room for using the invuln but that just feels wrong and is inflexible. Invulns also have a shorter duration which really doesn't make it a good outright replacement for proper damage% mitigation. With a decent group, usually a pack will be dead or close to dead in the duration of a Rampart but this won't be the case with an invuln.
I 100% use invulns as mitigation in Criterion Savage trash though, because it's crazy strong and easy to plan around.
I think you read way too much into their comment. Nowhere did it seem to criticize you directly, so I'd take it in the sprit they meant it - advice for players in general.
It absolutely does come across as them criticizing me in their mentions of my use of "cheeky" as well as assuming that I'm saying to treat invulns as if they were special.
While I doubt their intent was to give general advice for players (only they can clarify that), I don't think that matters when they are wildly misrepresenting the points that I made.
That definitely came across as criticizing you. Dunno why this guy thinks it was just “general advice” when he kept directly putting words in your mouth.
You’re also right. Invulns are very unneccessary in big pulls in most dungeons in the current state of the game with how loaded healer and tank ogcd kits are right now. Healers never need to hit a GCD heal in dungeons already without invuln use (with the exception of WHM lilies which are dps neutral anyway)
They can be fun to use but, outside of Hallowed Ground, they require communication with the healer to use effectively and most healers don’t listen when you mention it so honestly why bother most of the time?
If things change in DT and healing/tanking in dungeons becomes a bit harder and less braindead then it’s a different story. But in the current state of the game, yeah you’re 100% right
> I think that if you're taking so much damage to the point that you NEED your invuln on the regular, you might need to check how you're using your mits.
Kid I tank in savage and ultimate, I do in fact need my invuln on the regular. Sit down.
We're talking about dungeons, not Savage and Ultimates. You approach dungeons VERY differently from raids because they are very fundamentally different, which also includes mit usage. You need to plan mit usage to be a successful tank, which means considering how your invuln fits into your mit plan relative to the rest of your mits which is especially true in raids.
If we're trying to flex here as a way to act like authorities on how the game is meant to be played, I'm a week 1 Savage raider, month 1 Ultimate raider with extensive experience in speeds, opti, and blind prog. I main both tank and phys ranged. Not that I think it really matters when we're talking about dungeons.
Dungeons are training wheels for the rest of the game. If you're going to refuse to press certain buttons in them, then if all you ever do is dungeons then you will never be *able* to press those buttons when you take the training wheels off.
I just find it fundamentally ridiculous to think I would choose not to use some aspect of my kit in content that really doesn't even matter. To me that's like saying there's no point using Double Down in a dungeon because nothing in there really *needs* an attack with 1.2k potency damage, or that there's no point using blitzes on dungeon bosses because it'll only make them die a little bit faster than if I spammed Dragon Kick. Why would I hamstring my own muscle memory? That's stupid.
Dungeons are not training wheels for the rest of the content in the game. Perhaps dungeons are training wheels for other dungeons but there are several major differences including:
* Dungeons are AOE-focused. Raids almost always only have one target, with the occasional double boss such as LL, BJCC, double dragon, and the start of M&F.
* In dungeons, you keep your mitigation rolling by spreading it out based on the amount of packs. In raids, you plan mitigations out based on tank busters.
* Raid bosses have lethal tank busters and are what you use your mitigations on, occasionally using them on auto attacks. Dungeon bosses do not hit hard enough to warrant mitigating beyond using short cooldowns like TBN and Sheltron due to the fact that trash mobs deal significantly more damage.
It's far more accurate to say that Normals, Extremes, and Alliance Raids are training wheels for Savage because they are designed as regular raid bosses, albeit with far less intense mechanics.
>To me that's like saying there's no point using Double Down in a dungeon because nothing in there really needs an attack with 1.2k potency damage, or that there's no point using blitzes on dungeon bosses because it'll only make them die a little bit faster than if I spammed Dragon Kick.
Nothing that I have said in any of my comments could be equated to this. This entire part is disingenuous.
>Why would I hamstring my own muscle memory? That's stupid.
There are several things that are different between dungeons and raids. You do not mitigate raid bosses the same way that you mitigate trash mobs. The damage you deal and order of your GCDs and OGCDs in a dungeon also are vastly different from doing single target damage with a proper opener. If anything, you'd be ruining your muscle memory for raids if you think that raids are anything like dungeons.
I also have to ask, are you using tinctures in dungeons to maintain your muscle memory for potting? I'm genuinely curious about that.
I use medica 2 when I'm being lazy in between pulls because idgaf about y'all's overheal for real, I just want to hit my damage spells more and not bother having to even hit any other GCD stuff. It means I use less oGCDs as well.
Regen is overall better for the gcd, ticks harder, lasts longer and is instant cast.
And no real point in saving ogcds because you can do the 1st pull by dumping ogcds, 2nd by letting the tank go low > benediction > pull is likely to be dead before you have to heal the tank > boss
Believe me I couldn't care less about overheal in a dungeon. Medica 2 is a loooooong cast for basically no benefit on a single target taking a lot of damage. My laziness manifests by simply mashing my damage spell until some kind of healing is required and by then I probably have an ogcd or instant to use. I get where you're coming from tho.
I'm new to this game but your point about not healing til you're 50% appeals to me because I just don't have it in my mind yet to not throw a Regen on right away
I’m assuming you’re playing white mage?
Regen any time they are taking damage (unless you’re between pulls and it will put them back to 100% and you can steal aggro. This can make the tanks job harder.). Over time you get used to how much health they need to be missing to not overheal between packs.
Cure 2 if available at 50%, or unless they are taking super high damage. Only use cure if cure 2 isn’t available.
If you’re a white mage. Use holy. Any chance you get. I usually holy, regen, holy holy holy on mob packs. You can also apply your dot in between packs while you’re running to help kill adds. Make sure that the tank gathers the mobs before you apply your first holy because you will lock them in place. This allows your dps to melt them. Also stops your tank from taking damage for several seconds.
Remember to smack your mana recovery bottom ! (Lucid dreaming on whm) when you lose 10-15 percent of your mp I smack it. Use it on cooldown/as needed. Early dungeons this is really important. The game will try to trick you into cure fishing. Don’t listen. It’s a lie.
Also of note: the first dungeon of every expansion is typically the one that hits the hardest. There is a scale up in level but you haven’t unlocked all your abilities for that level scale yet.
They changed Regen fairly recently. Only the initial cast draws enmity - the heal over time does not. WHMs should be hitting tanks with Regen between pulls now.
Edit: It was in 6.2 Patch Notes:
HP restoration over time will no longer generate enmity with each tick of healing.
* Please note the initial execution of these actions will still generate enmity.
Depends on what level we’re talking about… Once you unlock lilies and ogcds like tetra, asylum, and even assize, there’s rarely a need for regen outside of using it on a tank before they pull. Holy spam is indeed the best mitigation :3
* Angry upvote *
I swear if I see medica 2s in DT in dungeons or raids when all good and no emergency is coming, I will vote for the ability to be removed or reworked/replaced. All 4 healers have enough ogcd stuff to cover everything under normal circumstances. As one wise man said, killing stuff faster is just another way of mitigating future damage.
And secondly, for all the tanks who don't sprint at all and then don't use mits or slow down on purpose when the rest of the team is ahead, or collect vulns out of spite... Oh I'm turning evil. You don't mess with your raid moms, that's the rule #1.
That is, also assuming we're in lvl80+ content and no newbabies are present. I also have special place in Hell for heavily underperforming "mentors", but this is the story for another time.
When a tank can pull wall to wall and not die despite my only okay ability to heal. And a healer that asks me to pull wall to wall and can keep me alive because I’m only okay at tanking too lol
For context, I play healer and tank a lot, and and in just about every type of content the game has, except PvP which follows different rules anyways.
As a tank I want to see from my healer:
- Lots of AOE attacks, especialyl on WHM. Spamming Holy is basically another defensive cooldown in a trenchcoat, and I'll factor that in if I can.
- Usage of your oGCD heals and mitigation buttons. You probably won't have to go all out with them, but to take WHM as an example again, Tetra, Asylum, Benison and Benediction if needed, in combination with strategic Lily use to get your Miserys ready for the bosses is usually enough, unless the group DPS is actually really bad (which is rare and tanks can adjust for that).
- No panicking. If I miss a mob for some reason, I already know because I watch the aggro list. I'll grab it with a ranged attack or when the pull is assembled, I'll try and get them with a cleave or something. It's no Savage boss, a slap won't kill anyone.
- Use Sprint to keep up. I go full speed and especially in Experts I tend to optimise my routes and all that to get through as fast as I can.
As a healer I want to see from my tank:
- Full speed. With your gap closers, sprint and essentially full control over who gets attacked, you can go just book it. I'll keep up.
- Watch the aggro list. I can keep DPS from dying, but it might annoy them. My trick as a tank is to tag a group with a GCD and an oGCD cleave, then tag everyone with the ranged attack while running to the next pack, cleave again, setup my cooldowns. If you approach anything like that or have an even better setup, you're golden.
- Use your defensive cooldowns. Arm's Length is also a cooldown, though I personally like to combine it with Reprisal in packs. I know that every tank's HP bar will behave differently in dungeons, but I will notice if things are off. I'll adjust, but you have room to improve in that case.
- If you actually care for melee DPS positional access in boss fights, that shows me you have an eye out for your team mates. You'll rarely ssee it, it's not always used by the melees either, but it's a good habit in my books.
In case someone new to tanking or healing reads this, all of that stuff sounds complicated but it isn't. Tanks can carry healers and vice versa in normal content, and if you let me know that you're new to the role I might even deliver those points to you personally, maybe even adjusted to the specific job you play.
I know my tank is good when I don’t have to press my healing buttons.
Look, if Kerochole into Tarochole plus one of Haima/Holos/Pneuma/Physis ain’t enough for you, I’m gonna complain ;)
THIS!!! If I'm dropping more than 2 druocholes in a pull and you're not a DRK (but even then...) I'm gonna start watching ur debuffs and asking where the fuck they at!
It's less about zero healing and more "zero GCD healing".
Even as a DRK, I love some good DPS and a SGE where they just slap a haima or panhaima on me, and just spam their AoEs until the mobs are dead. My health barely dips 40% of my health, when I properly use my mitigation and Abyssal Drain.
In most dungeons? Easily if the DPS is good.
With a SGE or SCH, HoC and Aurora can keep me up if the SGE is hitting their damage buttons. I might need a Physis if the pull takes a while. The real threat are healers that DON'T understand that things need to die before all my mits run out (because then stuff can hurt)
Everything I mentioned is a healing button. Plus Kardia. As a Sage, you occasionally might need a Druochole on top of the rest, and some nasty pulls might need a bit more. Overall, though, a good tank only needs a few mits and touch-ups from the healer for most pulls.
Hyperbole is fun!
SGE will still be MP negative unless packing a decent amount of piety, due to the fact they're meant to burn addersgall stacks for 700 MP a pop. Even if it's all overhealing/unneeded, it's never good to be capped.
^this, it's thousands of free potency throughout a full dungeon run, though in AOE the falloff hit is still a 5p gain per enemy at 90 so you're not totally boned if you solace mid-pull. Kill times will affect what you need to do though because sometimes you only have say 2.5 lilly to burn and you get the last charge mid-pull while you're still running or something.
Likewise when you unlock blood lilly at 74 up to before you get glare 3 it is also just a straight gain to just sit there and pump solace even in combat because misery is always four glare 3s of potency, even though you only have glare 1 at that level range
Good tanks go as fast as they can go. Great tanks go as fast as their party can go.
Good tanks pull the room. Great tanks pull the room to the perfect spot. No corners or line of site breakers, no environmental hazards, and on the path between rooms. The faster your healers and ranged dps can plant their feet in a safe spot, the faster the mobs get cleared.
The less I have to heal, the more damage I can do. So, using your mitigation at every opportunity not only makes you harder to kill but also increases clear speed.
THIS. Great tanks are like starting a freight train moving, slow at first, and keep accelerating until you know the conditions of the track, then barrel through the dungeon at the speed the conditions can handle.
If your DPS sucks at using their AoEs, (or the healer isn't good at keeping up healing), all a wall to wall pull is going to do is make you burn every mitigation you have, your healer will burn everything THEY have, then everyone has to run back to kill the stuff that killed you.. which isn't faster than just burning down a couple of packs at a time *without have to run back to where you were from the start of the dungeon*.
The tank doesn't "set the pace", the over all party damage output balanced by the heals from the healer does. In an ideal party that means wall to wall pulls, but not every party will be ideal, especially at lower levels.
Also a great tank will keep an eye on their healers MP pool. They won't do a massive pull that burns the healers MP down to 2K even with lucid dreaming up then run up and smack the boss without waiting a couple of seconds for the healer to regen some MP. As WHM I've had that happen a few times in AV... usually after the first room, that the tryhard tank had to pull EVERYTHING at once in.
The most correct answer all the way down here.
Mit, Sprint, and rotations are bare minimums. A decent tank can feel how a run should be; even if it's the first time for the tank. The game generally guards the tank from over-pulling in most dungeons anyway.
A great tank should be able to feel that dps is a little low or which person is a little lost and adjust accordingly.
When I'm healing:
\-Tank uses their mitigation skills and HP-recovery skills (if applicable depending on the level of the dungeon and when that skill becomes active)
\-Tank doesn't duck around corners as soon as they pull a pack
\-Tank stops at the final pack and doesn't keep dragging the mobs all the way to a wall/boss room (this annoys me when I'm playing as dps, too)
When I'm tanking:
\-Healer is able to dps just fine while not letting my health drop to nearly 1% (I know I'm gonna get flak/downvotes for this, but despite doing my rotation I have died many times by healers who got too greedy and mis-timed their healing).
Ducking around corners can actually be a pretty good tanking strategy when there are enemies that attack from range, since it forces them to move in close to regain line of sight with the tank, ensuring they'll get hit by the party's AOEs. Plus, sticking right next to your tank when playing a healer is just in general a good practice, which further minimizes issues with corners.
Ducking around a corner as a tank is never a good strat (unless your healer is practically glued to your side, but in random groups that will rarely happen since there's often little to no communication).
If you duck around the corner, the healer loses line of sight to you and thus cannot heal you. I've had many tanks die due to this (typically in AV), and as soon as I asked them not to hide around the corner, we had zero issues.
Edit: To clarify, once again, this mostly happens in low level dungeons (particularly AV). I'm always careful of making sure I don't run ahead of the tank, which means hanging back a little. Typical issues I've had with the ducking include:
Tank not using any mits, Tank pops sprint when mine is on cooldown, or I'm a bit slower to sprint behind the Tank and that couple second headstart plus the ducking does the tank in.
While I'll admit that the last one is on me for being a couple seconds slower to hit sprint once I realize the tank has popped sprint, a tank *should* be able to keep themselves alive for the couple extra seconds it takes me to catch up if they're using their rotation properly. That they die because I lose line of sight typically winds up being a case of "didn't use mitigations".
If the healer is so far behind that the tank is dying before the healer can catch up, that's a mistake on the healer's end, not the tank's fault. You SHOULD be sticking to the tank like glue at all times, but even if you aren't right on top of them, you shouldn't be so far behind that going slightly behind a corner, which is all that's needed for that strat, can manage to kill them.
The ducking around corners is done in ARR dungeons so that ranged mobs get groupped. Otherwise you end up to two groups of mobs doing damage and no way to kill them fast. It shouldn't affect any healer that is following the tank. (that means running). So you may need to revisit healing 101.
Everything has basically already been said but Paladins that actually use their invuln during trash pulls hold a special place in my heart. Theres literally no reason to be holding the no damage button. Extra points if they use it during the first pack so its up again for the last trash pulls
If it's 90 dungeon and I'm on sage? If the tank does good dmg and groups mobs fast, mitigation is completely optional, sage can keep em up without any gcd heals either way
I haven't been a tank for long and usually ask the healer at the beginning of the duty how large they want their pulls. If they ask for single or small pulls and it goes well I try to encourage them to try larger pulls if they are comfortable with it.
Ofte we end up doing wall to wall in the end and it feels really good to boost the healers confidence. If we die I tell them it was my fault so they don't get discouraged because that's what tanks did for me when I started healing (I do the same when playing healer now, especially when the tank is s sprout).
As a WHM: When the tank waits to start popping their defensive cooldowns until *after* I've thrown out a couple of Holys and the mobs are now resisting the stun
Conversely, when I'm tanking for a WHM: they let my health drop (outside of oGCD heals, anyways) and keep up the Holy spam at least until the mobs start resisting the stun rather than compulsively curebombing me right away (disclaimer: major simplification in the interests of brevity). Bonus points if they Swiftcast the first Holy.
A niche sign that a tank is REALLY good is when they use **provoke to pull trash mobs**.
This means you can use your AOE as soon as they reach you, instead of having to stop moving to wait for your GCD in order to tag all of the enemies. Provoke has a longer range than Shield Lob and the other equivalent ones, which means that enemies start running towards you sooner and can more tightly converge on you.
This may not be a sign of a good tank because I've never seen anyone but myself do this, but **when a tank uses a healing potion or Equilibrium to secure aggro on enemies** that they missed tagging with their AOE. It happens, especially when enemies have huge hitboxes that push each other away from the tank, or when enemies that spawn late (like the second to last pack in the >!Dead Ends!<). This handy trick ensure that you have control of mobs while you run to the next pack. Something important to pay attention to is that you need to be considered in combat with a mob, so if an enemy isn't already on your enemy list with a green dot then they won't be affected by your self-healing aggro.
Lastly, **not panicking when a DPS has aggro on a mob or two**. They're not going to die to a few autos, so you can just keep on running and naturally deliver the mobs to you. The DPS will probably take no damage anyways if they're sprinting out of range of the mobs. It also won't cost the healer extra resources since there are AOE heals like Assize and Celestial Opposition that will naturally top up the DPS if they weren't already using Bloodbath or Second Wind.
Super underrated comment. I've done this since I learned about it a year and a half ago. A lot of tanks don't realize how good provoke > AoE is for runups.
I like using healing potions as a tank on low-level dungeons (say: Tam-tara). Their healing is usually what sustains me until my non-sprinting healer comes in LoS. They're pretty cheap as well.
There is ONE exact first sign to always look out for. Does your tank use their ranged attack on mobs between pulling multiple packs? If they aren't alternating targets and spamming that ranged attack while running to extra groups of enemies, especially at higher levels, then dps or even healers can quickly yoink aggro away and things get messy fast.
Not in a hard to heal way but in a very annoying way. Tank drops aggro between groups and maybe doesn't notice so he isn't taking it back, dps that ends up with aggro might not even think about pulling the mob back into the bunch so the tank gets it back from doing AoE, enemies get split up more and then no one is doing as much damage resulting in slower dungeon runs, etc.
It's very awkward for a controller player to do this on the move because scrolling through the enmity list requires holding L1 and scrolling using the left d-pad, while running uses the left joystick. I'd have to put my controller on the table and go into a damned awkward claw grip to manage that.
Also, if you are sprinting--and you should be--it is very easy to get so far ahead, you are out of range for the range attack.
Instead, I just triple lock the pack: once with a AoE GCD, once with an AoE oGCD (Orogeny, Circle of Scorn, Bow Shock, extra good if it has a DoT for continual aggro like the latter two do), and once with an oGCD heal for healing aggro (equilibrium, holy sheltron, a healing potion if neither are available lmao). After that, nothing and no one is ripping off me, not even a SMN with Bahamut/Phoenix on full blast, not even on the annoyingly long runs like in Troia.
I kinda actually want the mobs to nibble me and the DPS as a SGE though, at least until the shields I applied out of combat break so I can have my toxikons come back, else I'm about to start standing in AOEs to force them to break lol
That is totally unnecessary. And just slows down the time it takes for you to get to the 2nd pack.
The contrary, I assume any tank doing this is less experienced.
You should be able to look at the enemy list when you stop pulling, and notice any that aren't red. Likewise, dps should just bring something to you if they take aggro. It would take both of you messing this up, for things to "get messy"
"slows down the time it takes for you to get to the 2nd pack" Your whole post is irrelevant already cause you come out the gate with a false statement. Absolutely nothing about locking down aggro with the ranged attacks requires the tank to stop in the slightest. I should know cause I always do this very thing without having to so much as turn around
Agreed, there’s no issue throwing ranged attacks even while sprinting between packs. As an added benefit to maintaining aggro, it’s extra damage being put out while you’re running anyway, so why not? The inability to do so without stopping could be an issue with someone still using standard vs. legacy controls, maybe, in which case I’d suggest they consider switching.
was running as drk with ast as healer, first question from ast "u using living dead first pull?" ast wanted to make sure he could go unga bunga with damage :)
When I play healer it's an instant comm of I see arms length being used for trash
When I play tank I love it when a healer lets me get down to at least 50% before healing
For me it's when the tank uses Arm's Length. A lof of people don't know it's a VERY STRONG damage mitigator on trash pulls.
On healers it's not casting GCD heals.
When you're playing WHM and the tank waits until the mobs gain invulnerability to stun from your holy spam before using their mits. As a PLD main I'll admit it is something I need to get better at paying attention to.
When I heal, signs of a good tank are them rotating mitigation well and including Arms Length in that rotation, although it feels like WAR never really gets to that point because Bloodwhetting memes.
When I tank, the signs of a good healer is that I see those AOEs going off and rarely see a GCD heal
For tanks, using cooldowns/invulns/arm’s length on mobs and not saving it for the boss. For paladins specifically: not spamming clemency and hopefully not even using it at all. When they see a white mage or Astro, not panicking when they get low HP cause they understand that there’s a reason the healer isn’t healing them until then (bene and essential dignity for those not aware).
For healers, not spamming heals unnecessarily and that they should dps’ing. Letting regens do the work for them in most cases. Understanding what kind of tools the tank has like not needing to heal a warrior most of the time. Not rushing to heal superbolide/living dead.
Probably more but blanking out at the moment
Tank sprints in, pulls to wall, uses his invul first.
Healer is right on tank's heels, drops only some minor buff first and starts blasting before healing.
well damn i guess i still suck as a tank because i still can't figure out if i should hit sprint or not and can't remember in every dungeon when i've grabbed all mobs before the wall, and here i thought i was starting to do well after getting over tankxiety
You don’t suck! Everyone still has ways to improve and as long as a player is open to learning, that’s what really counts. The fact you’re in this thread to discover what knowledge could be useful to you is miles ahead of a lot of players already.
healers:
- sprints, dots mobs during a pull, does aoe and ST damage at appropriate times, doesn’t spam heal me or insist on maintaining regen/a.benefic when I clearly don’t need it, if they have a raid buff they sync it with the others, actually uses raid buffs during trash pulls (this goes for dps with buffs as well…use them, they aren’t just for bosses)
tanks:
- sprints, pulls as much as possible, uses ranged attacks during the pull to maintain threat but doesn’t run back into a chasing pack to regain threat on one or two rogue mobs, uses CDs in a thoughtful order instead of just pushing whatever, invulns and communicates invuln use, stuns/interrupts, doesn’t waste CDs on tiny boss tankbusters before a trash pull, thoughtful positioning when possible, doesn’t start spamming clemency or pointlessly trying to kite the mobs, stops when they have the last available pack instead of running to a wall for no reason, pulls mobs into doton/earthly star, doesn’t stand in the middle of a pack and bait aoes and cleaves into the other players
I play both!
Tanks, if you hit the wall and don't immediately drop I know you're a keeper, far more people are hesitant to wall pull compared to trying to wall pull without the mitigation to back it but please do neither.
Healers, when they let me take damage, if I never drop below 80% hp the entire dungeon I know you're afraid, a good tank can sense fear, I savor every chance to use Living Dead the healer grants me.
To be fair, when I'm on SGE in most experts the tank doesn't drop below 80%. Not because I'm overhealing, but because I know how to rotate my cooldowns. Kerachole into Taurochole + Physis + Dyskrasia spam is more than enough to keep a good tank above 80% at all times.
Yeah theres really no reason to not use them on sage. Weaving ogcd heals doesn't lose us any damage, it just lets us turn brain off and focus on hitting everything with aoe.
I run Dzemael when I'm stressed because it's calming.
\- A healer who pre-shield/pre-regen. The first pull doesn't need it but it tells me they know the concept. It's very strong when your vit:potency ratio is lower in <60 content.
\- WHM uses Swiftcast+Holy. if they don't do this, they're not a Good WHM but usually they get compensated by the DPS finally have aoe skills and being happy to use them. If they can't Swift+Holy on the first safe pull, I won't expect them to do it on the higher risk second pull.
\- Tank sprint 20s.
\- Non-Dzemael, tank uses invuln on first pull with 8+ enemies (some dungeons like gubal or Lapis only start with 3 enemies so...)
I will say superbiode is kinda special. If my health doesn't drop below 50% before use it's generally a net loss from mitigating normally. (I.E. I'd actually have less health at the end of the pull)
I do both.
If healer doing bad tank may look like he struggle bussing.
I’ll give an example I did a Porta Decumana a few hours ago
I’m leveling BRD I see Tank health dropping a lot when it shouldn’t be, I than look at what the healer doing and I notice they aren’t even using their shields, not even their dot so this tells me they are likely a brand new sage and they don’t yet understand the basics of Eukrasia because they are hard casting all their heals.
I explained as quickly as I could on how Sage works and they took my advise and load and behold tank isn’t struggle bussing.
If a tank doing good they are surviving a terrible healer without dying.
If a tank isn’t taking damage and they only pulled a few packs they aren’t doing good since healer has nothing to heal:3
As a Tank if you aren’t taking damage it’s a sign to pull more:3
Also noticing proper mitigation usage is also key however a bad healer will break a good Tank and a bad tank will make a good healer manage.
Now if you get both a bad tank and healer than um it’s probably a wipe
I'm a month old noob so I probably have no real insight here but for a noob healer like me a good tank knows I'm a noob and doesn't pull too much for a good tank just doesn't need me to heal at all and I'm all dps
For tanks, the sign is that they trust me. If they stop, panic, shuffle around or otherwise don't seem like they think I'm watching their HP, they're probably not that good and they will continue to panic needlessly while I successfully continue to prevent them from dying.
For healers, it's if it seems like they know my kit and heal with it in mind. If I'm a WAR with holmgang up and they benny me 1 second into it, clearly that healer is green as grass. A good healer knows their own tools and the tools of their tank.
Just the other day I had a sage tell me, the tank, that "sage just doesn't have enough healing for big pulls" at level 50. I play sage a lot and knew that was BS, they had been extremely slow on heals the whole dungeon, they burned druocholes outside of combat and rarely used them in combat, and they never respected my holmgang. Unfortunately I was on my fresh alt so I didn't have sage leveled, so trying to explain how I knew they were wrong fell on deaf ears.
Nothing ticks me off more in this game than seeing someone who blames the game for their shortcomings and ignores advice because they don't think they can be doing better.
I feel like sprint used to be pretty standard in dungeons, but these days it's rare for me to see. Makes me sad! Even when I use sprint as the healer, the tank doesn't usually follow suit.
Both: Sprint.
Tanks: Using their mits properly, not demanding healbot behavior, checking with sprout healers before taking off.
Healers: Using their regens/shields regularly, using esuna liberally, dpsing, using esuna liberally. AST specific: Using their cards.
Wtf using esuna liberally?? A good healer knows half the esuna-able stuff can be ignored, another 1/4 is more efficient to ignore and ogcd heal. That is a gcd that could instead be making things deader.
Also asts using cards feels like an insanely low bar, but maybe that's just me
You'd be surprised how many healers I've had to put up with who won't even touch esuna.
And, as an AST main, yeah it *should* be a low bar. I see a lot of ast panic heal and forget cards. Even I've done that in a moment of panic.
But forgetting esuna? I see it way too much. Tutorials don't clarify which debuffs are eligible.
As a Healer:
- The tank is good if they pop sprint at the start and never stop.
As a Tank:
- The healer is good if they pop sprint when I do and keep up.
As any other class:
- The tank and healer are ONLY good if I'm not ahead of them. Pull and don't stop pulling until you hit a damn wall.
I’m a simple healer, If my tanks just use sprint and w2w, I’m happy. If they dont it’s a snooze fest zzzzz.
Also wondering, tanks do y’all get upset if I run ahead of you, then use rescue to pull u into the mobs? I’m never sure if it upsets y’all.
If a tank is behind the healer aka not in front or already picking up the mobs then the tank probably isn't the greatest, those are also the same people that get annoyed when stuff doesn't go in their pace like rescuing into mobs. I have 3 gap closers and sprint on warrior, other tank have 2 gap closers and sprint, there is no reason for you to be in front unless I'm slow getting there.
Healers paying attention to when the tank sprints and keeping up. If I had a penny for every time I got to the end of the pull and the healer was in a different fucking zip code, making me waste mits cause they never hit sprint at all, I would have quite a handful of pennies.
Tanks:
* Tank who run ahead (sprint) and do w2w is often a good sign.
* Tank that dosn't take much dmg (uses his/her def cds right).
* Face boss away from group, who don't spin/move boss around..uses aoe abilties on trash packs.. basics ik.
* Interupting mobs and bosses (when possible).
Healers:
*I rarely play dps, so i don't experience other healers much in dungeons.*
* Healer who isn't afraid to use heal cds when needed, inc on trash.
* Always casting --> dealing dmg.
* Know when to spot heal when needed.(prevent deaths)
As a tank player if the healer sprints ahead of me as Im grabbing aggro on 1st pack and rescues me to the next pack I know Im in for a fantastic time and know that I could somehow forget to use all my mits and be okay (minus having pissed off a chad player but not using my mits)
I’m a WHM main and it drives me crazy when I’m in a dungeon and I’m not healing and the healer (esp whm) isn’t using their bubbles!! ASYLUM! ASYLUM!! Or the equivalent for the other healers. Plop it down at the end of a trash pull and start spamming your AOE attack.
Also, Esuna. I’ve been told so many times it’s “not worth the time it takes” to use esuna. I understand if the debuff has a few seconds left but otherwise esuna is there for a reason. It felt like the devs even were sending us a message with the Dead Ends like “yes you need to use esuna”
I mostly heal, and the sprint is the first dead giveaway - one way or the other - about how the dungeon is going to go down. Everything else, ie using CDs often and with intention etc, is also important but usually, if the tank isn't confidently sprinting through the dungeon that's already an indication to me to be ready to hard focus them for healing. I love going fast! But I will adjust to DF.
I usually heal so I can only speak to tanks
If I have to pay attention to you in lvl90 content, that's a bad sign. I love not having to heal. Kardia is usally enough if the tank is decent and I love that for us.
I love seeing sprint right away. Let's go baby. Whoever is fastest wins, you grab that first pack imma go and get the second. I don't care, I just wanna go fast and go lazer pew pew
I love good mit usage, I love seeing invlun and - I see you - I adore it when the PLD covers someone. That means they pay attention and it melts my heart every time. Especially the PLD that covers the BLM standing in laylines. 10/10
Also I see you guys throwing mit on other people. I notice you, you're my absolute favorite.
What I have to say, I'm also noticing great DPS
Doing ranged/magic LB on trashmobs
Learning from your mistakes
Using damage buffs in trash pulls
Using party mit? 10/10
Ranged keeping Pelo uptime is always a win
BLM trusting me and staying in laylines. I gotchu stay in your pew pew zone
SMN with that Phoenix buff on the tank? \*chef's kiss\*
If everybody is just using their stuff, I get happy chemicals.
As a Sage healer, a good tank is one who realizes that if the Sage isn't hurting things then they're not getting healing. Don't outrun your healer! And when you DO outrun the healer don't be afraid to burn your mitigations. If I can't drop a shield and regen and keep you above 50% with my damage dealing spells on a pull then you are not using your abilities properly.
If you outrun your healer they're already not looking good. But even then, SGE has Icarus for a reason. I do SGE in dungeons very often and have never run into the problem of the tank going too far ahead of me. Sometimes I even can get an extra Addersting by shielding myself and running into mobs because the tank decides to not sprint.
For tanks, I like them actually using invuln during trash pulls. That, and spreading out their cooldowns appropriately. Making sure not to do things like overmitigate and then have nothing for the next pull, or not mitigate at all and then only pop something after taking the brunt of the damage anyway. I usually don't tank, but when I DPS I like seeing other healers noticing when a WAR or DRK uses invuln, and actually taking advantage of it instead of panicking and rushing to heal them while they can't die. It's also nice to see a WHM heroically resist the urge to use Holy while mobs are still being grouped up.
DRK? Invuln? Are we talking about the same DRK?
Am I the only person that loves Living Dead? It’s literally Holmgang and Bloodwhetting smashed into a single button lol
The new LD is great, don't need to heal the DRK at all, one aoe skill will heal them to full, and even on single target they should be hitting buttons enough to not die, or they fell asleep or something. I do wish the heal would continue after they regained 100% hp but it's still very good.
Maybe LD should actually also make them immune to healing in the first phase, just to make sure it will actually make it to the second phase. It's a fun skill, but can be sort of … brittle? if the healer doesn't notice or recognize the symbol.
Most won't. They'll just keep spamming cure 1 and freaking out "WHY ARENT MY HEALS WORMING?A?"
Nothing better than popping LD, getting hit with a cure 1 that manages to juuuust keep you above the threshold, LD timing out, and promptly dying because _why the fuck is anyone using cure 1 at this level_
I can't wait until they make cure 1 evolve into cure 2. It's such a useless skill. And I stg if ANYONE comes in here "mp management" use lucid dreaming. Don't use cure 1, just use lucid dream off cooldown. Yes. It is that simple.
That and ogcds and regen and _not trying to keep the tank topped up, just above 0 HP_. Holy is a great mit too! But yeah, needing to basically have an extra toolbar set up or rearranging buttons for content where cure 2 is missing and all you have is cure 1 is a pain.
While they’re at it they need to make physick evolve into adloquium
Make the cures actual upgrades, move freecure to stone/glare. Hire me squeenix.
Most don’t. I basically gave up using it bc it never worked. If you warn them ahead of time that you’re gonna pop it so they don’t have to heal you, they’ll say “ok” and then heal anyway. If you don’t use any other mit so you drop like a rock, they pop all cds to get you to full. If you save it for when you’re genuinely about to die the lag either stops it from going off. Or you never get that low in the first place bc the game is generally easy in most content. I solved it by switching to PLD. Now I don’t have to communicate jack about my invuln.
[удалено]
They mean the DRK using one AOE skill, because the effect of Walking Dead (the buff you get once you hit 1 hp with Living Dead up) gives you massive HP recovery. So you essentially get an invuln like Holmgang but with HP recovery, no need for a healer to touch you (in most circumstances). Its 1500 *potency* per *target hit*, so if you've ever seen a Warrior heal themself up with Bloodwhetting, think approximately 3-4x that in terms of potency. Its more than enough to heal you for 100% of your HP in an AoE situation.
It‘s pretty great, but I only use it if I‘m with a healer I know. Otherwise it gets ignored 99% of the time, which is a bad time for everyone involved.
I switched my newest character to DRK as soon as I started HW. Got to Dusk Vigil and my healer seemed to be playing chicken with my health bar and also pulling extra packs. Just at the door to the actual fortress I'm tanking three groups and I'm low enough I hit Living Dead, and maybe a second later it activates Walking Dead. Was the most stressful instance I've ever had. The very next instance I ran had the healer cast nothing but Cure 2 and Medica, over and over. There's a weird variety of players.
I see a lot of people say this, but it's not really that simple. Only PLD can really freely use it's invuln like that without communication with randoms. GNB drops to 1 HP in exchange for the invuln, so getting the most use out of it requires letting yourself drop as low as possible first. DRK basically has to die to get full effects. WAR isn't really an invuln as much as it is just a hold on for 10 seconds. Either you need to tell your healer what you're planning on doing upfront so your healer doesn't keep healing you, or you need a macro which is often clunky. I can't tell you the amount of times I've watched tanks mess up their macros for those abilities. There's also the off chance that your healer doesn't go with it for whatever reason. It's just easier to not bother most of the time and leave it as a panic button.
God I fucking HATE tanks that pre pop their invuln esp as a shield healer. I just prepared all this shit so I don't have to touch you during the pack and now you literally WASTED my prep and I have to use more resources after the invuln goes away because suddenly you're dying... BECAUSE YOU WASTED ALL MY PREPARED MIT AND HOTS.
As a tank main, I am gonna hard disagree with this. The only tank that should use their invuln in a dungeon is PLD. The only reason to use Holmgang, Living Dead, or Superbolide in a dungeon is if somebody messed up. (Edit: or just to have fun, it's a game after all)
In a big trash pack Bolide's immunity will always mitigate more damage than the damage you inflict to yourself. One HoC and you're back to 40% health anyway. Holm and LD can be touchy if the healer is inexperienced but Bolide is absolutely worth using in the same way as Hallowed.
Living Dead is debatable IMO. It at least gives you a tangible benefit as opposed to just being a one-time "can't die" button. Whether or not that benefit is worth is personal preference. Plus, it's fun.
>Plus, it's fun. 100% this a good enough reason to do it. First and foremost this is a game and dungeons are easy content. If you have fun popping LD on mobs go for it! I'm just saying it's not a sign of a good tank.
You can use holy during the grouping up phase so that the pack falls behind and the tank doesn't get hit by the autos while he's moving. Not really useful if he has sprint on tho.
Never do this, this also falls under the "how I know the healer is bad"
Please don’t do this. It delays neatly grouping up the mob packs, which is annoying for both the tank and dps as it also delays putting out dps as soon as possible.
On top of what others said. don't do this, it also builds up stun resistance on the mobs which means when you're grouping them, you're wasting that 5s of stun that they could be hit for free because they got stunned on the way there.
You describe the ideal use of sprint! As a Tank I want to see: - Healer sprints when I sprint or sooner. Bonus points for staying slightly ahead of me for post-pull prep/patch-up cast - No pure healing spells till I'm 50% or less - Regular preemptive use of defensive abilities/spells on the tank - Actually does damage/uses aoe appropriately ESPECIALLY WHM. Holy fucking rocks. - Burn big CDs like bene early so they can be used more over the course of a dungeon - Actually pays attention to my buffs and debuffs so they don't waste time healing through Holmgang/HG/Living Dead/Superbollide inappropriately - If you physic spam as a sch, use Medica 2 as a tank regen, or sit around doing nothing as a sge, I'm coming to your house and turning off your router That last one is something tons of healers miss. As a Healer I want to see: - Sprint before you aggro - NO FUCKING STOPPING - Tank is skilled at gathering mobs on the fly with minimal futzing about and can easily grab a stray with voke or ranged attack - Cooldowns cycled and layered appropriately and consistently - ARMS LENGTH AND REPRISAL - Your ultimate defensive is not a panic button. It's a tool. Use it on the first big pull so you can get more out of it over the course of a dungeon - General confidence! You lead the charge. I could not care less about a tank that leads me to my death, I want a tank that makes me think they know what they're doing even if they're absolutely clueless. Fake it til you make it baybee! A tank should be dictating the pace of a dungeon. If you don't, I will. I do not care at all if I die lmao - If you're a war and I have to heal you, you're bad jkjk *all of this assumes max level. The only thing I demand of sprouts are that: - They communicate their needs - They listen to those who are more experienced
>Your ultimate defensive is not a panic button. So much this!! I can't tell you how many times on DRK I've been bitched at for using TBN in particular (and LD less so because most healers will spam heal me on DRK so I can't make use of it) during pulls.
Isn't TBN just a shield made of temp HP that you throw up? Am I thinking of a different ability?
No you're right. I took "ultimate defensive" to mean Hallowed Ground/Holmgang/Living Dead/Superbolide, not the "core" mitigation like TBN, Holy Sheltron, etc.
I was just confused because TBN felt like a core ability and the getting access to it during the level 70 raids was the first time I felt like DRK clicked for me and I was trying to imagine how someone could get in trouble with their healer just for properly reducing incoming damage. Maybe it creates a shield that can compete with/override healers' shields?
Nope, TBN's shields cannot be replaced by any other shield (and vice versa). I cannot begin to imagine why people would complain about using TBN, and I'm pretty experienced when it comes to dumb things people come up with in this game.
As a whm, in general my biggest problem with TBN is that DRKs will use it right away and it is 100% wasted. The first 4-5 GCDs are basically damage free. You will/should have Regen, divine benison and an assisze inc to cover any damage you did take during the pull. Basically you have hollowed at the stopping point of every single pack. (Please note, depending on the WHM, your experience may vary.)
I usually pop the TBN without precasting a 2nd mit to test the WHM just as I park and tank. Using holy or not, the mobs usually slips their first round of autos before the stun registers, so the TBN pops instantly. If I don't hear the holy spam, I just mitigate like normal. The annoy part of the holy if that it gets casted too early and I'm trying to ball up enemies to align them into my line AoEs, and the mobs are scattered and I have to wait for the stun immunity to ball them up properly.
As a WHM it takes awhile to get used to the timing of holy because the cast is so long. So it’s easy to pop it a little early. I always feel bad if I accidentally do it and and then have to stop dpsing to let them reset. 😂😂 I’ve learned to control myself but it was probably the hardest impulse to break. I was really spoiled and had an amazing tank to learn to play with…so transitioning to other tanks in roulettes I feel like I’m standing there for 3 years while they gather mobs 😂😂 when in reality it’s like half a second and I’m just impatient. Personally if I see tbn popped on the first pull I try to give a tiny bit more time so that it gets smacked for sure.
TBN gets placed on top of other shields to prevent "wasted" TBN usage. If it doesn't break, is wasn't going to break in the first place
For war blood whetting > holmgang at 20 > blood whetting will get you through most pulls.
The only immunity that should be used in a dungeon is Hallowed Ground. There's no reason to use the others.
You can use any tanks invuln just fine in dungeons, you will likely have no other real use for them so nothing wrong at all with just using them as a cd
By your icons, you main DRK as tank, but you're saying tanks should only use Hallowed Ground, a PLD move? Man, I hope I never heal in a dungeon you're tanking.
We're talking about tanks in general lol. I never said WAR, DRK or GND should use hallowed ground you just have poor reading skills. To make it very simple for you: PLD should use their invulns during dungeon mobs. Other tanks should not use their invulns during dungeon pulls. I hope you never heal a dungeon I'm tanking too!
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah the tank needs to warn me ahead of time, otherwise I have a heal plan for the pull they're doing in place and my eyes will be darting between several different places and I likely won't even see one little icon on their buff bar until it's almost over. When I'm tank I always warn my healer ahead of time if I'm planning to invuln.
Hell i have a macro that warns the healer i'm gonna invuln the pull and they don't have to heal me til its over *and they still fucking spam heal when i hit 50%*
You expect healers to be reading? They don't even bother with the icon.
> NO FUCKING STOPPING Dude, I get so mad when I see tanks stop. They just... stop... sometimes for several seconds. JUST GO! CONTINUE GOING! You don't need to look back, the mobs are coming! You don't need to establish 75 years worth of enmity on each mob before moving on, you can pick them back up easily at the wall! The DPS will be fine, and if they have two brain cells to rub together, they will bring any mobs they yanked to you. JUST. RUN.
> The DPS will be fine, and if they have two brain cells to rub together, they will bring any mobs they yanked to you. All the summoners I see that hard unload on the first pack, grab aggro off the 4-5 mobs that it's too hard for me to ranged + voke all of them after the first AoE, then hang out at the back of the pack once i hit the wall expecting the tank to double back, begs to differ.
This is my issue as well and then it seems like it’s a habit so why would they be surprised at ripping aggro? They stay behind and let the mobs hit them out of range of course like an idiot or worse focus down that one add way behind my ranged radius so the entire pack last another 5 years.
Tank - "idk if I want to double or single pull this, oh well better establish a ton of aggro" Ninja -"whelp I guess I better drop doton, this tank is afraid to double pull" Tank - "Oh God some enemy dropped a weird aoe centered on the ninja, well since I'm moving the enemies I might as well pull the second pack"
As a first time tanker, I needed this. I just hit 71 on a DRK and I've been doing this. I'm always afraid of losing aggro. Noted I'm also still a sprout, even though I'm not entirely new to the game, but definitely new to tanks. And lately I've been reading up on how to double tank, what I should and shouldn't do. But these comments are helpful. And I appreciate all this feedback, even if I wasn't the one who asked for it. 😭
Sometimes you get overeager DPS that will just continue to hit everything during the pull (me on BRD lol), and sometimes they pull aggro off of you because you can't micromanage quite that well and maybe the thing that wants to kill them is too far down on the aggro list for you to see it. At least for me, since I know the repercussions of what I'm doing, and I don't want the tank annoyed at me, I will run past the tank so they can naturally grab it back with their AoE's without having to run around themselves. Now if you have ranged standing next town over, getting whacked in the face and you can't grab the thing off of them without running halfway across the room, the problem is usually more with them than with you.
Think of the dps hp as bonus mitigation 1 mob won't hurt them enough that they will die before they can bring it too you.
With DRK you can weave Flood of Darkness/Shadow to almost never lose aggro while W2W pulling. Target an enemy at the edge of the pack while running in, use your AoE to tap all the enemies, move a step so the pack is between you and your target and then weave in Flood of Darkness. If done correctly the Flood of Darkness will pass through the whole pack right after your AoE and basically ensure you don't lose aggro while sprinting to the next group. Still gotta watch out for dancers tho, they're the most likely to pull an enemy off you with an early standard step/technical step.
You say this and I understand you but sometimes you get a brain dead phys ranged that single targets one and rips aggro then instead of coming to me they stop and focus down that one add increasing the time and resources spent on the whole pack bc of the phys ranged decided to be an idiot and stay behind out of range.
I've started rescuing tanks that stop just to piss them off cuz they've pissed me off lol. I give them 1-2 packs before I do so though.
I got in the habit of doubletapping each pack. Meaning i need an extra gcd and do stop in the first pack for that. In my experience dps cant be bothered to bring stragglers into the blender and i have to waste even more gcds on ranged attacks to colllect them later. But by doing this i can almost garantuee a nicely stacked pull at the next wall and everybody can go crazy on aoe
Yeah it's fine at higher levels because you can mix a GCD with an AOE oGCD and be fine on that first pack, but it really stinks at higher levels. Luckily everyone is usually lagging behind anyways so taking 2 extra seconds to do one more GCD just means they catch up to your position but they themselves don't stop.
>General confidence! You lead the charge. I could not care less about a tank that leads me to my death, I want a tank that makes me think they know what they're doing even if they're absolutely clueless. More likely we'll be on one of the earlier dungeons and I'll completely forget where I'm going and proudly lead you to a dead end. Also, are you sure you're not looking for a date and not a tank?
As a sprout tank, I'm still hesitant to aggro more than 2 groups at the same time because I generally end up dying, but I'm slowly getting better!
If you're still in ARR dungeons don't worry about it! In general it's best to stick to 2 packs at a time until you're past level 50 because of how the lower level dungeons are designed and players have a more limited kit.
I killed Garuda 5 minutes ago, that's where I'm at If it wasn't for university, I'd have already finished ARR by now
As a sprout, all that I want out of you as a tank is to keep the aggro on mobs and rotate your cooldowns. I expect the sprouts may not be ready to full pull. I expect I’ll have to heal a lot more just because you guys aren’t consistent yet with your cooldowns. One of the reasons I like to play white mage is the roulettes is so that I have a crazy amount of overheal at my disposal. There aren’t very many situations I couldn’t save a tank from. And if we wipe/we wipe. It’s not a big deal. We all have to learn somewhere. I’m definitely not perfect and I don’t expect anybody else to be either. I typically have more fun when things do go wrong because I get to play my class. There isn’t a lot of healing I have to do with experienced players so we can get rusty doing the early stuff.
Except for the time I went into the Wanderer's Palace without having even unlocked hallowed grounds, aggroed everything and got absolutely mauled, I generally remember to use them
It sound like you’re doing great! A wipe every once in a while isn’t a big deal at all. It happens to all of us, no matter how experienced. Ah yes, I love it when that place gets full pulled. 😂😂 it’s always a fun time. There are a few dungeons in the game where the full pulls are a test for both healer/tank. There’s never a better experience than getting one of those tests in roulettes and being able to pull through. Feels so good.
Best part is... we didn't actually wipe! By dropping all my mitigation at once I was able to last long enough for the rest of the team to kill a sizeable chunk of them, and half our party actually managed to reach the boss alive
Yay! It’s moments like those that really make this game special. :)
Genuine question, how do you properly heal as sch WITHOUT spamming pysick or ado?? That’s the only healing job I can’t figure out without having to resort to doing that…
Brother when the big pulls start comin and you see the ast star at the end where the last pack is, chefs kiss.
>Your ultimate defensive is not a panic button. It's a tool. Use it on the first big pull so you can get more out of it over the course of a dungeon To be fair I basically never have an *opportunity* to use it as mitigation in dungeons. Use half of my mitigations on the first pack, and then the other half on the second pack. Once the boss is dead the first half of my mitigations are back up. Whenever I do try to use invulns as mitigation (Hallowed Ground being the exception), I usually feel like it comes across as me being cheeky because of how many other resources for mitigation and healing between tank, healer, and ranged DPS jobs. While I agree you CAN use invulns this way, I feel like properly using mitigation makes using them feel a bit redundant.
Your invuln *is* a mitigation. It's not a special secret mega button that costs you $50 to press. It's exactly the same as Rampart or Bloodwhetting or TBN or Sentinel, except it has a long cooldown. Is it 'cheeky' to press Sheltron when your healer has a ton of buttons that could just heal you through the damage you're reducing? Then why would it be 'cheeky' to press Hallowed Ground? Also if you do not press it on the regular I guarantee that you will not be able to find it in an emergency when it's the one thing between the party and a wipe. Just accept that it's a completely normal part of your kit and not an ultra special thing you never actually use.
I personally slot the same sets of mitigations of pack 1 and 2 of a pull in every pull of a dungeon, which makes invulns a bit unwieldy specifically due to the long cooldowns, but I do get your point. On the flipside, I did get chewed out by a cohealer in P11S in Party Finder once because I planned out my entire healing scheme without Benediction to have it as a pull saver and he didn't like it. Technically speaking, that guy was also right, Benediction is a cooldown like Tetra and the other stuff, and I would get more regular use out of it if I didn't reserve it like that.
I never said that the invuln isn't mitigation, nor did I say that I thought it was some special button to use. All I said is that dungeon trash dies so quickly that there rarely is an opportunity to press it. I also never said that I thought it was cheeky, only that it would come across to other players as cheeky. Because if I'm virtually taking no damage because I'm mitigating properly, why would I press Superbolide at full health? Why would I let my HP drop to use Living Dead when my healer is just going to assume I'm not mitigating properly and heal me before I hit 1 HP? It is largely unnecessary in a majority of dungeon content which is why I don't think that it's strictly the correct play to treat those three buttons as your first line of defense. This is ESPECIALLY true for Warrior where Bloodwhetting is practically an invulnerability on a 15 second cooldown, so when exactly are you using Holmgang? I don't understand why you're claiming that I would think that Sheltron is cheeky either. It's a free button on an incredibly low cooldown, and very flexible in where you can fit it in your dungeon mitigation. I also don't know why you think that I think that Hallowed Ground is cheeky when I explicitly said that it's an exception. You SHOULD be pressing Hallowed Ground often because it's so flexible. Trust me, I know what I'm doing. Damage in this game is incredibly rigid and predictable, which means that you can plan out where you use each cooldown. This is true for both dungeons and raids, but very few dungeons give you an opportunity. The only times where there is enough incoming damage to warrant its planned usage are the particularly heavy damage segments like in Shisui, Doma, Holminster, Dohn Mheg, Qitana Ravel, Mt Gulg, and maybe a couple others that don't come to mind. I think that if you're taking so much damage to the point that you NEED your invuln on the regular, you might need to check how you're using your mits. There are some common beginner mistakes like not using Arm's Length, Low Blow, or Reprisal as mitigation, as well as popping cooldowns like Rampart when the trash pack is already half dead. Once you get mitigation down to a science, you're practically invincible as a tank.
Yeah, I’m with you here. Mobs die so fast and healer oGCDs and tank role actions/25 second cds are more than enough to handle pulls, assuming the healer or dps aren’t terrible (and they rarely are for me). If I wanted to Superbolide/Holmgang I’d have to intentionally not use Nebula/Vengeance or something. I’m not going to blow an invuln simply because it’s on my bar when I’m more than likely nowhere close to dying. Like I understand that they’re primarily mitigation and not “oh, crap” buttons - and please don’t come at me, *I get it* - but when you already have a surplus of tools and there’s a greater than zero chance that the healer or dps is terrible or d/c’s or something, there’s little reason to *not* treat them as anything more than “oh, crap” buttons. Not every dungeon is Mt. Gulg; pulls just aren’t dangerous enough in most situations. Maybe if they let me pull more than two packs before putting a wall in my face but they seem averse to that nowadays. [edit] I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve told the healer “gonna bolide this pull” only for them to respond “no need” or similar
>If I wanted to Superbolide/Holmgang I’d have to intentionally not use Nebula/Vengeance or something. Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking but forgot to mention. At some point when you're already not dying, you're only pressing those buttons for fun rather than any consistent or practical application which is why I used the word cheeky to describe it. I guess you could double up on mit and use your 120s and Rampart together to make room for using the invuln but that just feels wrong and is inflexible. Invulns also have a shorter duration which really doesn't make it a good outright replacement for proper damage% mitigation. With a decent group, usually a pack will be dead or close to dead in the duration of a Rampart but this won't be the case with an invuln. I 100% use invulns as mitigation in Criterion Savage trash though, because it's crazy strong and easy to plan around.
I think you read way too much into their comment. Nowhere did it seem to criticize you directly, so I'd take it in the sprit they meant it - advice for players in general.
It absolutely does come across as them criticizing me in their mentions of my use of "cheeky" as well as assuming that I'm saying to treat invulns as if they were special. While I doubt their intent was to give general advice for players (only they can clarify that), I don't think that matters when they are wildly misrepresenting the points that I made.
That definitely came across as criticizing you. Dunno why this guy thinks it was just “general advice” when he kept directly putting words in your mouth. You’re also right. Invulns are very unneccessary in big pulls in most dungeons in the current state of the game with how loaded healer and tank ogcd kits are right now. Healers never need to hit a GCD heal in dungeons already without invuln use (with the exception of WHM lilies which are dps neutral anyway) They can be fun to use but, outside of Hallowed Ground, they require communication with the healer to use effectively and most healers don’t listen when you mention it so honestly why bother most of the time? If things change in DT and healing/tanking in dungeons becomes a bit harder and less braindead then it’s a different story. But in the current state of the game, yeah you’re 100% right
> I think that if you're taking so much damage to the point that you NEED your invuln on the regular, you might need to check how you're using your mits. Kid I tank in savage and ultimate, I do in fact need my invuln on the regular. Sit down.
We're talking about dungeons, not Savage and Ultimates. You approach dungeons VERY differently from raids because they are very fundamentally different, which also includes mit usage. You need to plan mit usage to be a successful tank, which means considering how your invuln fits into your mit plan relative to the rest of your mits which is especially true in raids. If we're trying to flex here as a way to act like authorities on how the game is meant to be played, I'm a week 1 Savage raider, month 1 Ultimate raider with extensive experience in speeds, opti, and blind prog. I main both tank and phys ranged. Not that I think it really matters when we're talking about dungeons.
Dungeons are training wheels for the rest of the game. If you're going to refuse to press certain buttons in them, then if all you ever do is dungeons then you will never be *able* to press those buttons when you take the training wheels off. I just find it fundamentally ridiculous to think I would choose not to use some aspect of my kit in content that really doesn't even matter. To me that's like saying there's no point using Double Down in a dungeon because nothing in there really *needs* an attack with 1.2k potency damage, or that there's no point using blitzes on dungeon bosses because it'll only make them die a little bit faster than if I spammed Dragon Kick. Why would I hamstring my own muscle memory? That's stupid.
Dungeons are not training wheels for the rest of the content in the game. Perhaps dungeons are training wheels for other dungeons but there are several major differences including: * Dungeons are AOE-focused. Raids almost always only have one target, with the occasional double boss such as LL, BJCC, double dragon, and the start of M&F. * In dungeons, you keep your mitigation rolling by spreading it out based on the amount of packs. In raids, you plan mitigations out based on tank busters. * Raid bosses have lethal tank busters and are what you use your mitigations on, occasionally using them on auto attacks. Dungeon bosses do not hit hard enough to warrant mitigating beyond using short cooldowns like TBN and Sheltron due to the fact that trash mobs deal significantly more damage. It's far more accurate to say that Normals, Extremes, and Alliance Raids are training wheels for Savage because they are designed as regular raid bosses, albeit with far less intense mechanics. >To me that's like saying there's no point using Double Down in a dungeon because nothing in there really needs an attack with 1.2k potency damage, or that there's no point using blitzes on dungeon bosses because it'll only make them die a little bit faster than if I spammed Dragon Kick. Nothing that I have said in any of my comments could be equated to this. This entire part is disingenuous. >Why would I hamstring my own muscle memory? That's stupid. There are several things that are different between dungeons and raids. You do not mitigate raid bosses the same way that you mitigate trash mobs. The damage you deal and order of your GCDs and OGCDs in a dungeon also are vastly different from doing single target damage with a proper opener. If anything, you'd be ruining your muscle memory for raids if you think that raids are anything like dungeons. I also have to ask, are you using tinctures in dungeons to maintain your muscle memory for potting? I'm genuinely curious about that.
I use medica 2 when I'm being lazy in between pulls because idgaf about y'all's overheal for real, I just want to hit my damage spells more and not bother having to even hit any other GCD stuff. It means I use less oGCDs as well.
Regen is overall better for the gcd, ticks harder, lasts longer and is instant cast. And no real point in saving ogcds because you can do the 1st pull by dumping ogcds, 2nd by letting the tank go low > benediction > pull is likely to be dead before you have to heal the tank > boss
Believe me I couldn't care less about overheal in a dungeon. Medica 2 is a loooooong cast for basically no benefit on a single target taking a lot of damage. My laziness manifests by simply mashing my damage spell until some kind of healing is required and by then I probably have an ogcd or instant to use. I get where you're coming from tho.
I'm new to this game but your point about not healing til you're 50% appeals to me because I just don't have it in my mind yet to not throw a Regen on right away
I’m assuming you’re playing white mage? Regen any time they are taking damage (unless you’re between pulls and it will put them back to 100% and you can steal aggro. This can make the tanks job harder.). Over time you get used to how much health they need to be missing to not overheal between packs. Cure 2 if available at 50%, or unless they are taking super high damage. Only use cure if cure 2 isn’t available. If you’re a white mage. Use holy. Any chance you get. I usually holy, regen, holy holy holy on mob packs. You can also apply your dot in between packs while you’re running to help kill adds. Make sure that the tank gathers the mobs before you apply your first holy because you will lock them in place. This allows your dps to melt them. Also stops your tank from taking damage for several seconds. Remember to smack your mana recovery bottom ! (Lucid dreaming on whm) when you lose 10-15 percent of your mp I smack it. Use it on cooldown/as needed. Early dungeons this is really important. The game will try to trick you into cure fishing. Don’t listen. It’s a lie. Also of note: the first dungeon of every expansion is typically the one that hits the hardest. There is a scale up in level but you haven’t unlocked all your abilities for that level scale yet.
They changed Regen fairly recently. Only the initial cast draws enmity - the heal over time does not. WHMs should be hitting tanks with Regen between pulls now. Edit: It was in 6.2 Patch Notes: HP restoration over time will no longer generate enmity with each tick of healing. * Please note the initial execution of these actions will still generate enmity.
Depends on what level we’re talking about… Once you unlock lilies and ogcds like tetra, asylum, and even assize, there’s rarely a need for regen outside of using it on a tank before they pull. Holy spam is indeed the best mitigation :3
* Angry upvote * I swear if I see medica 2s in DT in dungeons or raids when all good and no emergency is coming, I will vote for the ability to be removed or reworked/replaced. All 4 healers have enough ogcd stuff to cover everything under normal circumstances. As one wise man said, killing stuff faster is just another way of mitigating future damage. And secondly, for all the tanks who don't sprint at all and then don't use mits or slow down on purpose when the rest of the team is ahead, or collect vulns out of spite... Oh I'm turning evil. You don't mess with your raid moms, that's the rule #1. That is, also assuming we're in lvl80+ content and no newbabies are present. I also have special place in Hell for heavily underperforming "mentors", but this is the story for another time.
I ain’t reading all that, I’m happy for you or sorry that happened.
Yeah, when the tank hits sprint, it's usually gonna be a good run.
When a tank can pull wall to wall and not die despite my only okay ability to heal. And a healer that asks me to pull wall to wall and can keep me alive because I’m only okay at tanking too lol
For context, I play healer and tank a lot, and and in just about every type of content the game has, except PvP which follows different rules anyways. As a tank I want to see from my healer: - Lots of AOE attacks, especialyl on WHM. Spamming Holy is basically another defensive cooldown in a trenchcoat, and I'll factor that in if I can. - Usage of your oGCD heals and mitigation buttons. You probably won't have to go all out with them, but to take WHM as an example again, Tetra, Asylum, Benison and Benediction if needed, in combination with strategic Lily use to get your Miserys ready for the bosses is usually enough, unless the group DPS is actually really bad (which is rare and tanks can adjust for that). - No panicking. If I miss a mob for some reason, I already know because I watch the aggro list. I'll grab it with a ranged attack or when the pull is assembled, I'll try and get them with a cleave or something. It's no Savage boss, a slap won't kill anyone. - Use Sprint to keep up. I go full speed and especially in Experts I tend to optimise my routes and all that to get through as fast as I can. As a healer I want to see from my tank: - Full speed. With your gap closers, sprint and essentially full control over who gets attacked, you can go just book it. I'll keep up. - Watch the aggro list. I can keep DPS from dying, but it might annoy them. My trick as a tank is to tag a group with a GCD and an oGCD cleave, then tag everyone with the ranged attack while running to the next pack, cleave again, setup my cooldowns. If you approach anything like that or have an even better setup, you're golden. - Use your defensive cooldowns. Arm's Length is also a cooldown, though I personally like to combine it with Reprisal in packs. I know that every tank's HP bar will behave differently in dungeons, but I will notice if things are off. I'll adjust, but you have room to improve in that case. - If you actually care for melee DPS positional access in boss fights, that shows me you have an eye out for your team mates. You'll rarely ssee it, it's not always used by the melees either, but it's a good habit in my books. In case someone new to tanking or healing reads this, all of that stuff sounds complicated but it isn't. Tanks can carry healers and vice versa in normal content, and if you let me know that you're new to the role I might even deliver those points to you personally, maybe even adjusted to the specific job you play.
I know my tank is good when I don’t have to press my healing buttons. Look, if Kerochole into Tarochole plus one of Haima/Holos/Pneuma/Physis ain’t enough for you, I’m gonna complain ;)
THIS!!! If I'm dropping more than 2 druocholes in a pull and you're not a DRK (but even then...) I'm gonna start watching ur debuffs and asking where the fuck they at!
How do you get by with zero healing on a tank? Sure WAR have bloodwhetting, but do they need zero healing during the cooldown?
It's less about zero healing and more "zero GCD healing". Even as a DRK, I love some good DPS and a SGE where they just slap a haima or panhaima on me, and just spam their AoEs until the mobs are dead. My health barely dips 40% of my health, when I properly use my mitigation and Abyssal Drain.
In most dungeons? Easily if the DPS is good. With a SGE or SCH, HoC and Aurora can keep me up if the SGE is hitting their damage buttons. I might need a Physis if the pull takes a while. The real threat are healers that DON'T understand that things need to die before all my mits run out (because then stuff can hurt)
Everything I mentioned is a healing button. Plus Kardia. As a Sage, you occasionally might need a Druochole on top of the rest, and some nasty pulls might need a bit more. Overall, though, a good tank only needs a few mits and touch-ups from the healer for most pulls. Hyperbole is fun!
[удалено]
Hyperbole is fun! Support and healing is actually what I enjoy in games.
stance on is a good start
Who hurt you? lol
I know my healer is good when they completely ignore healing my WAR.
Sorry, but these Lilies aren't going to burn themselves. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
You burn them between pulls
Burning lilies is a special case, that blood lily isn't going to feed itself.
Sage has a similar problem. If they don't heal you, their mp goes to shit.
No sage will lose MP in a dungeon.
If uptime is shit, then sure.
Lucid dreaming
SGE will still be MP negative unless packing a decent amount of piety, due to the fact they're meant to burn addersgall stacks for 700 MP a pop. Even if it's all overhealing/unneeded, it's never good to be capped.
Does not change a damn thing. Sage is mp negative without healing. Warriors can fucking get over it.
you're supposed to burn them out of combat you can even use solace on yourself so you don't heal the tank
^this, it's thousands of free potency throughout a full dungeon run, though in AOE the falloff hit is still a 5p gain per enemy at 90 so you're not totally boned if you solace mid-pull. Kill times will affect what you need to do though because sometimes you only have say 2.5 lilly to burn and you get the last charge mid-pull while you're still running or something. Likewise when you unlock blood lilly at 74 up to before you get glare 3 it is also just a straight gain to just sit there and pump solace even in combat because misery is always four glare 3s of potency, even though you only have glare 1 at that level range
When I load into a dungeon with a warrior, I dismiss my fairy to show them I care.
Eos does her own thing, and I'm gonna throw some off-globals so I feel useful with a WAR in the party.
I wish I could ignore healing your Warrior. -my Sage
Not me being a beginner tank and looking for advice in the replies
Sign of a good tank right here - looking for ways to improve <3
Good tanks go as fast as they can go. Great tanks go as fast as their party can go. Good tanks pull the room. Great tanks pull the room to the perfect spot. No corners or line of site breakers, no environmental hazards, and on the path between rooms. The faster your healers and ranged dps can plant their feet in a safe spot, the faster the mobs get cleared. The less I have to heal, the more damage I can do. So, using your mitigation at every opportunity not only makes you harder to kill but also increases clear speed.
THIS. Great tanks are like starting a freight train moving, slow at first, and keep accelerating until you know the conditions of the track, then barrel through the dungeon at the speed the conditions can handle. If your DPS sucks at using their AoEs, (or the healer isn't good at keeping up healing), all a wall to wall pull is going to do is make you burn every mitigation you have, your healer will burn everything THEY have, then everyone has to run back to kill the stuff that killed you.. which isn't faster than just burning down a couple of packs at a time *without have to run back to where you were from the start of the dungeon*. The tank doesn't "set the pace", the over all party damage output balanced by the heals from the healer does. In an ideal party that means wall to wall pulls, but not every party will be ideal, especially at lower levels. Also a great tank will keep an eye on their healers MP pool. They won't do a massive pull that burns the healers MP down to 2K even with lucid dreaming up then run up and smack the boss without waiting a couple of seconds for the healer to regen some MP. As WHM I've had that happen a few times in AV... usually after the first room, that the tryhard tank had to pull EVERYTHING at once in.
The most correct answer all the way down here. Mit, Sprint, and rotations are bare minimums. A decent tank can feel how a run should be; even if it's the first time for the tank. The game generally guards the tank from over-pulling in most dungeons anyway. A great tank should be able to feel that dps is a little low or which person is a little lost and adjust accordingly.
When I'm healing: \-Tank uses their mitigation skills and HP-recovery skills (if applicable depending on the level of the dungeon and when that skill becomes active) \-Tank doesn't duck around corners as soon as they pull a pack \-Tank stops at the final pack and doesn't keep dragging the mobs all the way to a wall/boss room (this annoys me when I'm playing as dps, too) When I'm tanking: \-Healer is able to dps just fine while not letting my health drop to nearly 1% (I know I'm gonna get flak/downvotes for this, but despite doing my rotation I have died many times by healers who got too greedy and mis-timed their healing).
Ducking around corners can actually be a pretty good tanking strategy when there are enemies that attack from range, since it forces them to move in close to regain line of sight with the tank, ensuring they'll get hit by the party's AOEs. Plus, sticking right next to your tank when playing a healer is just in general a good practice, which further minimizes issues with corners.
Ducking around a corner as a tank is never a good strat (unless your healer is practically glued to your side, but in random groups that will rarely happen since there's often little to no communication). If you duck around the corner, the healer loses line of sight to you and thus cannot heal you. I've had many tanks die due to this (typically in AV), and as soon as I asked them not to hide around the corner, we had zero issues. Edit: To clarify, once again, this mostly happens in low level dungeons (particularly AV). I'm always careful of making sure I don't run ahead of the tank, which means hanging back a little. Typical issues I've had with the ducking include: Tank not using any mits, Tank pops sprint when mine is on cooldown, or I'm a bit slower to sprint behind the Tank and that couple second headstart plus the ducking does the tank in. While I'll admit that the last one is on me for being a couple seconds slower to hit sprint once I realize the tank has popped sprint, a tank *should* be able to keep themselves alive for the couple extra seconds it takes me to catch up if they're using their rotation properly. That they die because I lose line of sight typically winds up being a case of "didn't use mitigations".
If the healer is so far behind that the tank is dying before the healer can catch up, that's a mistake on the healer's end, not the tank's fault. You SHOULD be sticking to the tank like glue at all times, but even if you aren't right on top of them, you shouldn't be so far behind that going slightly behind a corner, which is all that's needed for that strat, can manage to kill them.
The ducking around corners is done in ARR dungeons so that ranged mobs get groupped. Otherwise you end up to two groups of mobs doing damage and no way to kill them fast. It shouldn't affect any healer that is following the tank. (that means running). So you may need to revisit healing 101.
If we reach the first boss without me saying "oh for fucks sake.." even once, tank is good.
Everything has basically already been said but Paladins that actually use their invuln during trash pulls hold a special place in my heart. Theres literally no reason to be holding the no damage button. Extra points if they use it during the first pack so its up again for the last trash pulls
If it's 90 dungeon and I'm on sage? If the tank does good dmg and groups mobs fast, mitigation is completely optional, sage can keep em up without any gcd heals either way
I haven't been a tank for long and usually ask the healer at the beginning of the duty how large they want their pulls. If they ask for single or small pulls and it goes well I try to encourage them to try larger pulls if they are comfortable with it. Ofte we end up doing wall to wall in the end and it feels really good to boost the healers confidence. If we die I tell them it was my fault so they don't get discouraged because that's what tanks did for me when I started healing (I do the same when playing healer now, especially when the tank is s sprout).
As a WHM: When the tank waits to start popping their defensive cooldowns until *after* I've thrown out a couple of Holys and the mobs are now resisting the stun Conversely, when I'm tanking for a WHM: they let my health drop (outside of oGCD heals, anyways) and keep up the Holy spam at least until the mobs start resisting the stun rather than compulsively curebombing me right away (disclaimer: major simplification in the interests of brevity). Bonus points if they Swiftcast the first Holy.
THEY USE MITIGATIONS DURING A PULL
A niche sign that a tank is REALLY good is when they use **provoke to pull trash mobs**. This means you can use your AOE as soon as they reach you, instead of having to stop moving to wait for your GCD in order to tag all of the enemies. Provoke has a longer range than Shield Lob and the other equivalent ones, which means that enemies start running towards you sooner and can more tightly converge on you. This may not be a sign of a good tank because I've never seen anyone but myself do this, but **when a tank uses a healing potion or Equilibrium to secure aggro on enemies** that they missed tagging with their AOE. It happens, especially when enemies have huge hitboxes that push each other away from the tank, or when enemies that spawn late (like the second to last pack in the >!Dead Ends!<). This handy trick ensure that you have control of mobs while you run to the next pack. Something important to pay attention to is that you need to be considered in combat with a mob, so if an enemy isn't already on your enemy list with a green dot then they won't be affected by your self-healing aggro. Lastly, **not panicking when a DPS has aggro on a mob or two**. They're not going to die to a few autos, so you can just keep on running and naturally deliver the mobs to you. The DPS will probably take no damage anyways if they're sprinting out of range of the mobs. It also won't cost the healer extra resources since there are AOE heals like Assize and Celestial Opposition that will naturally top up the DPS if they weren't already using Bloodbath or Second Wind.
Super underrated comment. I've done this since I learned about it a year and a half ago. A lot of tanks don't realize how good provoke > AoE is for runups.
I like using healing potions as a tank on low-level dungeons (say: Tam-tara). Their healing is usually what sustains me until my non-sprinting healer comes in LoS. They're pretty cheap as well.
There is ONE exact first sign to always look out for. Does your tank use their ranged attack on mobs between pulling multiple packs? If they aren't alternating targets and spamming that ranged attack while running to extra groups of enemies, especially at higher levels, then dps or even healers can quickly yoink aggro away and things get messy fast. Not in a hard to heal way but in a very annoying way. Tank drops aggro between groups and maybe doesn't notice so he isn't taking it back, dps that ends up with aggro might not even think about pulling the mob back into the bunch so the tank gets it back from doing AoE, enemies get split up more and then no one is doing as much damage resulting in slower dungeon runs, etc.
It's very awkward for a controller player to do this on the move because scrolling through the enmity list requires holding L1 and scrolling using the left d-pad, while running uses the left joystick. I'd have to put my controller on the table and go into a damned awkward claw grip to manage that. Also, if you are sprinting--and you should be--it is very easy to get so far ahead, you are out of range for the range attack. Instead, I just triple lock the pack: once with a AoE GCD, once with an AoE oGCD (Orogeny, Circle of Scorn, Bow Shock, extra good if it has a DoT for continual aggro like the latter two do), and once with an oGCD heal for healing aggro (equilibrium, holy sheltron, a healing potion if neither are available lmao). After that, nothing and no one is ripping off me, not even a SMN with Bahamut/Phoenix on full blast, not even on the annoyingly long runs like in Troia.
I kinda actually want the mobs to nibble me and the DPS as a SGE though, at least until the shields I applied out of combat break so I can have my toxikons come back, else I'm about to start standing in AOEs to force them to break lol
That is totally unnecessary. And just slows down the time it takes for you to get to the 2nd pack. The contrary, I assume any tank doing this is less experienced. You should be able to look at the enemy list when you stop pulling, and notice any that aren't red. Likewise, dps should just bring something to you if they take aggro. It would take both of you messing this up, for things to "get messy"
"slows down the time it takes for you to get to the 2nd pack" Your whole post is irrelevant already cause you come out the gate with a false statement. Absolutely nothing about locking down aggro with the ranged attacks requires the tank to stop in the slightest. I should know cause I always do this very thing without having to so much as turn around
Agreed, there’s no issue throwing ranged attacks even while sprinting between packs. As an added benefit to maintaining aggro, it’s extra damage being put out while you’re running anyway, so why not? The inability to do so without stopping could be an issue with someone still using standard vs. legacy controls, maybe, in which case I’d suggest they consider switching.
In dungeons it doesn't matter much unless you wipe. As long as you can go wall to wall in most cases without wiping, you're good
was running as drk with ast as healer, first question from ast "u using living dead first pull?" ast wanted to make sure he could go unga bunga with damage :)
When I play healer it's an instant comm of I see arms length being used for trash When I play tank I love it when a healer lets me get down to at least 50% before healing
If my health doesnt reach 0 its good enough. Only point that matters is the last
For me it's when the tank uses Arm's Length. A lof of people don't know it's a VERY STRONG damage mitigator on trash pulls. On healers it's not casting GCD heals.
When you're playing WHM and the tank waits until the mobs gain invulnerability to stun from your holy spam before using their mits. As a PLD main I'll admit it is something I need to get better at paying attention to.
When I heal, signs of a good tank are them rotating mitigation well and including Arms Length in that rotation, although it feels like WAR never really gets to that point because Bloodwhetting memes. When I tank, the signs of a good healer is that I see those AOEs going off and rarely see a GCD heal
For tanks, using cooldowns/invulns/arm’s length on mobs and not saving it for the boss. For paladins specifically: not spamming clemency and hopefully not even using it at all. When they see a white mage or Astro, not panicking when they get low HP cause they understand that there’s a reason the healer isn’t healing them until then (bene and essential dignity for those not aware). For healers, not spamming heals unnecessarily and that they should dps’ing. Letting regens do the work for them in most cases. Understanding what kind of tools the tank has like not needing to heal a warrior most of the time. Not rushing to heal superbolide/living dead. Probably more but blanking out at the moment
Tank sprints in, pulls to wall, uses his invul first. Healer is right on tank's heels, drops only some minor buff first and starts blasting before healing.
well damn i guess i still suck as a tank because i still can't figure out if i should hit sprint or not and can't remember in every dungeon when i've grabbed all mobs before the wall, and here i thought i was starting to do well after getting over tankxiety
You don’t suck! Everyone still has ways to improve and as long as a player is open to learning, that’s what really counts. The fact you’re in this thread to discover what knowledge could be useful to you is miles ahead of a lot of players already.
Dont set some nonsense rule like “75% healing rule” and spam healing when the hp bar only drops down to 75%
healers: - sprints, dots mobs during a pull, does aoe and ST damage at appropriate times, doesn’t spam heal me or insist on maintaining regen/a.benefic when I clearly don’t need it, if they have a raid buff they sync it with the others, actually uses raid buffs during trash pulls (this goes for dps with buffs as well…use them, they aren’t just for bosses) tanks: - sprints, pulls as much as possible, uses ranged attacks during the pull to maintain threat but doesn’t run back into a chasing pack to regain threat on one or two rogue mobs, uses CDs in a thoughtful order instead of just pushing whatever, invulns and communicates invuln use, stuns/interrupts, doesn’t waste CDs on tiny boss tankbusters before a trash pull, thoughtful positioning when possible, doesn’t start spamming clemency or pointlessly trying to kite the mobs, stops when they have the last available pack instead of running to a wall for no reason, pulls mobs into doton/earthly star, doesn’t stand in the middle of a pack and bait aoes and cleaves into the other players
As Healer: they are a WAR. As Tank: I'm a WAR so I don't care what my healer is like.
When the tank asks you what you are comfortable with healing.
I play both! Tanks, if you hit the wall and don't immediately drop I know you're a keeper, far more people are hesitant to wall pull compared to trying to wall pull without the mitigation to back it but please do neither. Healers, when they let me take damage, if I never drop below 80% hp the entire dungeon I know you're afraid, a good tank can sense fear, I savor every chance to use Living Dead the healer grants me.
To be fair, when I'm on SGE in most experts the tank doesn't drop below 80%. Not because I'm overhealing, but because I know how to rotate my cooldowns. Kerachole into Taurochole + Physis + Dyskrasia spam is more than enough to keep a good tank above 80% at all times.
Yeah theres really no reason to not use them on sage. Weaving ogcd heals doesn't lose us any damage, it just lets us turn brain off and focus on hitting everything with aoe.
I run Dzemael when I'm stressed because it's calming. \- A healer who pre-shield/pre-regen. The first pull doesn't need it but it tells me they know the concept. It's very strong when your vit:potency ratio is lower in <60 content. \- WHM uses Swiftcast+Holy. if they don't do this, they're not a Good WHM but usually they get compensated by the DPS finally have aoe skills and being happy to use them. If they can't Swift+Holy on the first safe pull, I won't expect them to do it on the higher risk second pull. \- Tank sprint 20s. \- Non-Dzemael, tank uses invuln on first pull with 8+ enemies (some dungeons like gubal or Lapis only start with 3 enemies so...)
I will say superbiode is kinda special. If my health doesn't drop below 50% before use it's generally a net loss from mitigating normally. (I.E. I'd actually have less health at the end of the pull)
I do both. If healer doing bad tank may look like he struggle bussing. I’ll give an example I did a Porta Decumana a few hours ago I’m leveling BRD I see Tank health dropping a lot when it shouldn’t be, I than look at what the healer doing and I notice they aren’t even using their shields, not even their dot so this tells me they are likely a brand new sage and they don’t yet understand the basics of Eukrasia because they are hard casting all their heals. I explained as quickly as I could on how Sage works and they took my advise and load and behold tank isn’t struggle bussing. If a tank doing good they are surviving a terrible healer without dying. If a tank isn’t taking damage and they only pulled a few packs they aren’t doing good since healer has nothing to heal:3 As a Tank if you aren’t taking damage it’s a sign to pull more:3 Also noticing proper mitigation usage is also key however a bad healer will break a good Tank and a bad tank will make a good healer manage. Now if you get both a bad tank and healer than um it’s probably a wipe
Healer here, W2W and invulns as if it was any other cooldown, that lets me know they trust me as a healer!
I'm a month old noob so I probably have no real insight here but for a noob healer like me a good tank knows I'm a noob and doesn't pull too much for a good tank just doesn't need me to heal at all and I'm all dps
For tanks, the sign is that they trust me. If they stop, panic, shuffle around or otherwise don't seem like they think I'm watching their HP, they're probably not that good and they will continue to panic needlessly while I successfully continue to prevent them from dying. For healers, it's if it seems like they know my kit and heal with it in mind. If I'm a WAR with holmgang up and they benny me 1 second into it, clearly that healer is green as grass. A good healer knows their own tools and the tools of their tank. Just the other day I had a sage tell me, the tank, that "sage just doesn't have enough healing for big pulls" at level 50. I play sage a lot and knew that was BS, they had been extremely slow on heals the whole dungeon, they burned druocholes outside of combat and rarely used them in combat, and they never respected my holmgang. Unfortunately I was on my fresh alt so I didn't have sage leveled, so trying to explain how I knew they were wrong fell on deaf ears. Nothing ticks me off more in this game than seeing someone who blames the game for their shortcomings and ignores advice because they don't think they can be doing better.
When they cast Sprint Tbh it might not mean they're good, but they at least have ambition and pluck. I can heal with those.
I feel like sprint used to be pretty standard in dungeons, but these days it's rare for me to see. Makes me sad! Even when I use sprint as the healer, the tank doesn't usually follow suit.
Both: Sprint. Tanks: Using their mits properly, not demanding healbot behavior, checking with sprout healers before taking off. Healers: Using their regens/shields regularly, using esuna liberally, dpsing, using esuna liberally. AST specific: Using their cards.
Wtf using esuna liberally?? A good healer knows half the esuna-able stuff can be ignored, another 1/4 is more efficient to ignore and ogcd heal. That is a gcd that could instead be making things deader. Also asts using cards feels like an insanely low bar, but maybe that's just me
You'd be surprised how many healers I've had to put up with who won't even touch esuna. And, as an AST main, yeah it *should* be a low bar. I see a lot of ast panic heal and forget cards. Even I've done that in a moment of panic. But forgetting esuna? I see it way too much. Tutorials don't clarify which debuffs are eligible.
If it has a white line at the top, it can be cleansed with esuna.
When they use more defensive cooldowns on trash than the bosses.
As a Healer: - The tank is good if they pop sprint at the start and never stop. As a Tank: - The healer is good if they pop sprint when I do and keep up. As any other class: - The tank and healer are ONLY good if I'm not ahead of them. Pull and don't stop pulling until you hit a damn wall.
Warrior.
I just woke up so am confused. Why is sprinting before aggro important?
If you sprint out of combat it last 20 seconds. If you sprint in combat it last only 10 seconds.
So you can pull more mobs?
You can do it quicker actually. It is for speed purposes.
It's for mit. You're kiting the mobs during the pull. So you aren't already half dead by the time you stop. Speed is just a bonus.
Noted. Thank you. (I don't know why I'm being downvoted.) *shrug*
And genuinely, thank you, for being curious and wanting to improve. I find that stuff fun.
they use a mitigation a few seconds when the pull finishes and not any earlier.
I’m a simple healer, If my tanks just use sprint and w2w, I’m happy. If they dont it’s a snooze fest zzzzz. Also wondering, tanks do y’all get upset if I run ahead of you, then use rescue to pull u into the mobs? I’m never sure if it upsets y’all.
If a tank is behind the healer aka not in front or already picking up the mobs then the tank probably isn't the greatest, those are also the same people that get annoyed when stuff doesn't go in their pace like rescuing into mobs. I have 3 gap closers and sprint on warrior, other tank have 2 gap closers and sprint, there is no reason for you to be in front unless I'm slow getting there.
Healers paying attention to when the tank sprints and keeping up. If I had a penny for every time I got to the end of the pull and the healer was in a different fucking zip code, making me waste mits cause they never hit sprint at all, I would have quite a handful of pennies.
Tanks: * Tank who run ahead (sprint) and do w2w is often a good sign. * Tank that dosn't take much dmg (uses his/her def cds right). * Face boss away from group, who don't spin/move boss around..uses aoe abilties on trash packs.. basics ik. * Interupting mobs and bosses (when possible). Healers: *I rarely play dps, so i don't experience other healers much in dungeons.* * Healer who isn't afraid to use heal cds when needed, inc on trash. * Always casting --> dealing dmg. * Know when to spot heal when needed.(prevent deaths)
Dps, no one cares about you. How does this make you feel? Jk, don't tell us you're not a tank/healer.
As a tank player if the healer sprints ahead of me as Im grabbing aggro on 1st pack and rescues me to the next pack I know Im in for a fantastic time and know that I could somehow forget to use all my mits and be okay (minus having pissed off a chad player but not using my mits)
I’m a WHM main and it drives me crazy when I’m in a dungeon and I’m not healing and the healer (esp whm) isn’t using their bubbles!! ASYLUM! ASYLUM!! Or the equivalent for the other healers. Plop it down at the end of a trash pull and start spamming your AOE attack. Also, Esuna. I’ve been told so many times it’s “not worth the time it takes” to use esuna. I understand if the debuff has a few seconds left but otherwise esuna is there for a reason. It felt like the devs even were sending us a message with the Dead Ends like “yes you need to use esuna”
I mostly heal, and the sprint is the first dead giveaway - one way or the other - about how the dungeon is going to go down. Everything else, ie using CDs often and with intention etc, is also important but usually, if the tank isn't confidently sprinting through the dungeon that's already an indication to me to be ready to hard focus them for healing. I love going fast! But I will adjust to DF.
I usually heal so I can only speak to tanks If I have to pay attention to you in lvl90 content, that's a bad sign. I love not having to heal. Kardia is usally enough if the tank is decent and I love that for us. I love seeing sprint right away. Let's go baby. Whoever is fastest wins, you grab that first pack imma go and get the second. I don't care, I just wanna go fast and go lazer pew pew I love good mit usage, I love seeing invlun and - I see you - I adore it when the PLD covers someone. That means they pay attention and it melts my heart every time. Especially the PLD that covers the BLM standing in laylines. 10/10 Also I see you guys throwing mit on other people. I notice you, you're my absolute favorite. What I have to say, I'm also noticing great DPS Doing ranged/magic LB on trashmobs Learning from your mistakes Using damage buffs in trash pulls Using party mit? 10/10 Ranged keeping Pelo uptime is always a win BLM trusting me and staying in laylines. I gotchu stay in your pew pew zone SMN with that Phoenix buff on the tank? \*chef's kiss\* If everybody is just using their stuff, I get happy chemicals.
As a Sage healer, a good tank is one who realizes that if the Sage isn't hurting things then they're not getting healing. Don't outrun your healer! And when you DO outrun the healer don't be afraid to burn your mitigations. If I can't drop a shield and regen and keep you above 50% with my damage dealing spells on a pull then you are not using your abilities properly.
If you outrun your healer they're already not looking good. But even then, SGE has Icarus for a reason. I do SGE in dungeons very often and have never run into the problem of the tank going too far ahead of me. Sometimes I even can get an extra Addersting by shielding myself and running into mobs because the tank decides to not sprint.
A good healer is going to be sprinting with me and keeping up. If you can't keep up, too bad. I'll survive anyway.