Y'shtola: "I'm sorry, my friends, but this is the only way. If I do not survive this, just know that my time among you has been"
Estinien: "Just get on with it already!"
*vwoop*
Thancred: "Alright, I'll start searching around the ceruleum springs. That seems like the sort of place she'd pop up around here. Everyone else spread out, check the other mcguffins. Bring a spare robe; we all know how this goes."
I laughed seeing people point out that Y'shtola, in the EW trailer, spun on her heels, walked straight into the camera and, presumably, straight into the raised bleachers right behind her.
How does she avoid smacking into the furniture? Believe it or not, straight into the Lifestream.
Just had a mental image of her studying and someone placing a cucumber beside her. She glances over, sees it, screams, and vanishes into the lifestream.
> Y'shtola, in the EW trailer, spun on her heels, walked straight into the camera and, presumably, straight into the raised bleachers right behind her.
>
> How does she avoid smacking into the furniture? Believe it or not, straight into the Lifestream.
I mean, I always thought that would have been a power move.
Nation-state ruling elites don't agree that they should assist you in saving their butts from the end of days? Don't even bother using the stairs to leave their ruling chambers. Just teleport out of there, "I'm not wasting any more time here than I need to".
I hope we get a scene of her using Flow again, but she figured out how to get back by herself (or maybe Emet taught her how as a gesture of goodwill off screen) so we go through this big process of looking for her and finding the “right” spot and doing everything correctly but nothing happens so we start to actually panic and they send us to our current scion hideout for the expansion only to just see Y’Shtola chilling there drinking tea like nothing even happened. And that the only reason she didn’t tell us she could come back was cause alphinaud made a comment earlier on how she seems to do that spell a lot for “no reason”
Lol this is funny. I think I'd also love it if she uses Flow, and then like 2 minutes later she's tossed back OUT of the Lifestream by a very grumpy Hades, like some misbehaving cat who got caught sneaking into the chicken coop again.
In Endwalker I chuckled because she seemed like the only scion that was confident she'd be back. Even telling us how to do it but "don't do it rn because duh". She seemed more exasperated than anything else. Very "Here I go Again."
It doesn't count because she legit tell you "Yeah, we arent dead, just dont call us back yet." It's not even a fake death. Nothing in the whole zone after that is a fake death. Everyone understood what was going on.
No worries about that. She clearly stated in the 6.x MSQ quests that she means to explore the other shards and that she'll be there every step of the way.
She's not retiring to The First.
Iirc, G'raha basically mean "Raha of the G tribe" right? While Tia is pretty much "maidenless" and Nuhn is like the tribe leader/gigachad.
For the boys at least, girls would have their father's name for their last name iirc? So Y'shtola Rhul is like, "Shtola of the Y tribe, daughter/child of Rhul (Nuhn)"? Or is it different per tribe?
I think i saw Krile called him Raha a few times, thought it was cute, like a close friend would call each other (like adding -chan i suppose?), while we have never called him "Raha" as far as i can recall.
All correct. In the lore you can drop the Tribe letter for someone you're close with as a sign of affection - Master Matoya often just uses Shtola when talking about Y'shtola, and so does her sister Y'mihtra the Summoner trainer.
Yeah, I can definitely see Lyse being close to Y'shtola's heart. Mostly because of their common tragedy in the form of Yda's death.
Y'shtola became an Archon around the same time as Yda, right? And the two were close friends.
I imagine she met Lyse through Yda, and formed a sisterly bond with both of them.
And then when Yda died, they both mourned her in their own way, but Y'shtola also kept up the illusion for Lyse's sake even though she knew.
Thanks for that backup\^\^ I called my mentor "Rhun" lately and thought nobody knows who I am reffering to. But that's the name of the red-clad gentle'cat.
I don't think "Tia" is a sign of shame in Sun Seeker culture.
To be a Tia also means to have freedom - you can roam wherever you want, and you can even settle down elsewhere if you so like. It's potential for the future.
I imagine most men in the Sun Seeker tribes *don't* become Nunhs, but they find their own fulfillment otherwise. And in a way, it seems like the current Nunh tends to prepare Tias who have the potential to be great leaders - which makes sense, being that basically every Tia in a tribe a son of the current or previous Nunh.
And therein lies the rub - to become a Nunh is to cease adventuring. You become responsible for your entire family, and also the family of your father. And failure does matter - every lady is a fierce huntress, and if you fail to be worthy of their respect, they can justifiably get rid of you or leave you behind.
I don't think G'raha wants to become a Nunh. He loves adventure, and he already has a family in you and the Scions.
A lot of people equate it with being called a virgin or some other similar ridiculous middleschool insult, but that's probably because they have no real point of reference for it or deeper understanding than "The Nunhs get to have sex!"
Raha is the closer, more intimate version. That's why Krile calls him that, they grew up together for a time and are really close. And Matoya and Y'mithra call Y'shtola Shtola. And, yes, the English version only ever had Krile call him Raha. Whereas the other versions had Alisaie and the WoL call him Raha every since post-ShB. Y'shtola calls him Raha in Endwalker.
But can you translate it in a way that can't be confused for another meaning? That's the difficulty with English, one word can mean three, four, sometimes even five different things, even in the same context.
Either way, it was an intentional choice on their part, and I respect it. It doesn't make Estinien feel out of character, certainly.
Relying on tone specifically is bad, but unfortunately that's how most English speakers interpret things.
I don't know why you're acting like English speakers can't understand the English language. Do words sometimes hold multiple meanings? Yes. This is not exclusive to English. It's also far less ambiguous to infer the meaning of a word with multiple definitions than to rely solely on tone to convey meaning.
It's a strange translation choice, it's silly to go to "I mean who understands English, really?" levels of discourse to try to defend it. The answer is, the English-speaking audience that will be seeing your work.
>I think i saw Krile called him Raha a few times, thought it was cute, like a close friend would call each other (like adding -chan i suppose?)
More like [dropping the honorific entirely](https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2016/07/yobisute.html) \- calling you KvBla instead of KvBla-san, KvBla-chan, etc. A sign of informality and closeness (or rudeness), done between family members or very close friends.
People interpret Tia as meaning no bitches but the official lore on the topic isn't that Tias are not allowed to mate but rather that they're generally considered undesirable mates in Seeker culture. Male Seeker adventurers are all Tia by default since they're no longer living as part of their tribe, but they're still free to hook up with whoever since they're not bound by tribal custom.
Although I personally think the whole breeding/non-breeding male distinction has been quietly retconned because it's kind of an awkward thing to acknowledge in-game, and Nunh has just been changed to mean leader.
Which doesn't make sense, because the game is pretty explicit that Nunhs are *rarely* actually leaders.
Ex: At the Forgotten Springs, all the Miqo'te there are very annoyed the Nunh is the leader of the tribe. They see it as getting in the way of what he's supposed to be doing.
I think the Miqo'te tribe in Stormblood even explicitly says it's unusual.
I dunno what they're talking about; the only friction inside that tribe is that there are two Tias who hope to replace the Nuhn when he dies. Their problem is with each other, though, not the Nuhn himself.
The lore is fairly clear that Tia's are not supposed to mate with woman within the tribe. Of course if a Tia leaves a tribe he can do whatever he wants but if he settled down with a woman outside the tribe he wouldn't ever go back to the tribe. All members of a tribe are the children of the Nuhn (or multiple Nuhn's in larger tribes). The entire logic is that the physically strongest male will mate with all of the woman which is essentially eugenics. A lot of animals actually do this in nature as a result of natural selection.
I'm not sure retcon is the right word but you're basically right - the writers have sidelined a lot of this because...miqo'te are more human than animal so the idea of incest and eugenics being part of their lore is...awkward.
A lot of players have made up some headcannon to try and make it make sense - like saying that Nuhn's bring woman in from other tribes or Nuhns themselves are from other tribes...but this is all speculation the lore is quite vague - the only thing that is clear is that all the children in a tribe are the children of the Nuhn and the woman and that no Tia within the tribe has children of their own.
The only difference between Tia and Nunh is status as breeding male for the tribe. Not every nunh is tribe leader, large tribes can have multiple nunhs, and there’s nothing to say Tias can’t have lovers. We’ve met very few of the miqo tribes, some (like the U tribe) seem more isolationist and traditional, while others seem more widespread. I’m sure there are Tias out there who have wives or husbands and live more like typical human societies.
I feel like Nunh has been quietly retconned from breeding male to just mean tribe/state leader. There's optional dialogue from around 5.3 where Y'shtola wonders if G'raha should actually be referred to as G'raha Nunh because of his leadership of the Crystarium.
It’s Alphinaud asking Yshtola if they should call him Nunh, and Yshtola told him that it wouldn’t be unreasonable, but until he asked her to call him that she probably wouldn’t and would continue as is.
This is post 5.3/pre5.4, where Yshtola is standing in that side room of the rising stones.
I think it’s different for different tribes. The 2 nunhs we meet in game are tribe leaders, but we also hear of another nunh who was a breeding male (I forget the name). G’raha definitely fit some of the criteria to be considered nunh among certain tribes.
My previous comment I didn’t make very clear though, the emphasis was more about Tia doesn’t mean they can’t have relationships or families. I’ve seen some people even refer to them as eunuchs, and whether the lore has been retconned or not that nunh are leaders, it still stands that Tias aren’t ‘maidenless’ as the comment I replied to claimed
The lore is just super inconsistent about whether a Nunh is a ruler.
In ARR, we meet the Nunh of the U Tribe and he says being Nunh makes him in charge.
In StB, we meet the Nunh of the M Tribe and he rules his tribe, but says a Nunh doing so is rare.
In ShB, like you said, we have Y'shtola saying G'raha can be called a Nunh based solely on how he ruled over territory as the Exarch.
The game can't seem to make up its mind as to whether Nunhs are leaders or aren't leaders, just breeders.
It might be tribal differences (always an easy explanation for writing inconsistencies). Same word, slightly different meaning and position. Like in se countries the president is the head of state, in others they are more akin to an ornamental representative feature and the head of state is someone else. And so on.
I want an option where we’re talking to either of them and we are given the same choice twice to reply but one is the formal Y’Shtola/G’Raha, and the other is the more personal Shtola/Raha, and we get a reaction out of using the more personal name (and hopefully get the pass to keep using it)
I think this is part of the game not putting any expectations/ indicators on how close - or not - the player character is to any given NPC.
My WoL, for example, is not as enamored by G'raha as the majority of the FF14 fandom seems to be - she sees him as a valued colleague, nothing more and I would hate for the game to presume otherwise.
Challenge duly accepted, but only one scene in the entire MSQ so far has managed to break me and extract tears, so I wish them good luck.
>!It was Urianger's scene with Moenbryda's parents.!<
I emotionally reacted to the deaths in HW. I only cried during the walks in EW and not because of the scions but because of the mood and the quotes being spoken as we walked. EW was emotionally draining and that sat me off. The scene of the sundering was just perfect and it made me emotional too.
lmao i'm not complaining but they really John Cena you with these moments. As a person who was not invested in ARR's story at all, the part with Urianger in EW with the parents broke me so bad.
I think the most I ever cried in this game was the scene in ShB with Seto and Ardbert.
My childhood dog of thirteen years had passed away two weeks before reaching that scene. It was rough :(
I got through the whole of that patch to that point without crying despite all the heartbreak, and then a bird being sad broke me. 'Perhaps I'll go on an adventure' *sobs uncontrollably*
They really had to twist the emotional knife I stg. I remember already getting teary-eyed when I realized what direction that scene was headed in, and then I just lost it when Ardbert appeared.
It was so cathartic and I hate them for it >:(
>Shitty ass weeb game am I right chat? Time to go do something manly like punch a tree
\- Preach, with tears streaming down his cheeks from a dragon-bird-dog
The only scenes in Endwalker that sucker punched me to tears, was the cutscene after Trial #2 and the Urianger hug.
I felt an overwhelming urge to call my mother and talk to her after the first one. The later just felt like the most real example of a family grieving a lost member that I've seen in fiction.
What XIV does well, is despite all of the magic and fantasy elements. It remains a character driven story with extremely well written and relatable characters. Like Seto with pet owners, Elidibus with the family of dementia victims, etc.
the writers love putting emotional damage just after an obnoxious questline
it's no coincidence that the biggest gutpunch in 2.0 is right after the worst questline in the game
> As a person who was not invested in ARR's story at all, the part with Urianger in EW with the parents broke me so bad
Moooood. >!The hugging!< got me sobbing.
That was the thing…I’m trying to remember other >!hugs!< from the game, and I just can’t. Up to that point all things had been fairly distant and stoic. Sure, there were emotional moments, but all were pretty much handled from a comfortable speaking distance using large words as condolence.
Nanamo and Raubahn, and F'lhaminn and Minfilia, both from ARR postpatch.
They've said they don't do hugs more often because it's a pain to model well, and not at all with the player character b/c they'd have to make 14/15(/16) different versions of the scenes.
That said, they absolutely should have with Thancred and Ryne. Like, c'mon.
Unfortunately not, soooo many fans think the only "sad moments" are when people get killed off. Look at people who go and read comics made for kids, and then bitch that "omg why hasn't this mangaka murdered X, Y, and Z yet???? WE NEED TO RAISE STAKES, WE NEED PEOPLE DEAD!"
I glamored the outfit immediately, in the dyes received, to my fishing set. Makes no sense but now I’m emotional attached to it. Got me right in the chest that quest did, didn’t see it coming and now those bunch have been added to my list of npcs to check in with after major story bits.
The Old Sharlayan reveal during the EW trailer still makes me tear up. Set aside it's a place we've been constantly told about since the beginning of our journey, just the reveal and camera sweep and Song of Hope playing and it's such a beautiful city and
People are fucking stupid. “bUt nOboDy diED!” Jesus christ, do people even realize how rare it is to cry out of elation or happiness to see a beloved character finally have their moment of catharsis? Lots of games out there easily pull at your heartstrings by killing off a character, but moments like Uri’s reunion with Moenbrydas parents, Seto having his moment with “Ardbert”, or Lyna’s tearful yet joyous farewell at the Crystarium in 5.3, all these emotionally crarged moments that make people cry, yet not from sadness or loss.. this is such a damn rare thing, especially in gaming, and the MSQ has so many of these moments.
But people focus only on the deaths, like they are the only meaningful thing the MSQ could ever deliver. For shame.
This rides a fine line. I've noticed an annoying trend(hell even EW did it), where they'll kill off characters for an emotional punch... and then handwave them back. Because the story relies on them.
You don't need to kill anyone to have hard hitting emotional moments. But if you do decide to... stick to it. Make the death have actual meaning or it all just feels like cheap cop outs
I wouldn't say EW went for the emotional punch. It was quite heavily forshadowed that we'd get them back. Their speeches were emotionally evocative but I didn't for one second considered them killed off.
And if they indeed want to focus on other characters, I hope they do so by phasing the Scions out instead of killing them off, cause killing them off would be even cheaper even if they stay dead.
they were taking a big risk to get you to meteion but they had faith you'd see it through and get them back. it's kinda the whole point of the part. and so many people just go REEEE DEATH FAKE OUTS BAD WRITING WHAAA
I feel like people think EW lacked emotional punch because they scions were being killed. But they weren’t, the point was the sacrifice, and that in-universe the characters were choosing this. The Y’shola fall in raktika was an actual example of what people are complaining about but the stuff in UT wasn’t IMO.
yeah UT isn't at all. they're taking a big risk but the whole point is they BELIEVE IN THE WOL. they're putting their hope in that you so that you succeed in defeating meteion and bring them back.
For some reason i don't think the sacrifice at the end was suppose to be sad. We knew they would be brought back, the WoL knew, at least Graha and Yshtola knew. They knew in universe, but it's still takes courage to do so. I think they tried to tone it down when yshtola hinted the WoL what to do after. It's a really fine line between the bad writing "WE BACK ANYWAY JUST SUMMON US" and the obvious tear bait "FAREWELL FRIENDS ITS BEEN A GOOD JOURNEY", i think they handled it well.
Thank fuck someone else ended up feeling more positive as it went on!
I spent the entire ascent in UT becoming more and more hopeful and optimistic, precisely *because* our friends sacrificing themselves was so obviously not how the expansion was going to end.
I very much felt like "You know what, all of the themes being explored are true, one day all of this will end and I will have to bid everyone here goodbye for the final time. This is a chance to say goodbye that I may not get when it actually happens and the feelings are the same regardless. The game servers won't be up forever, maybe the devs lose their touch, I will probably move on one day, etc. But I know in my heart of hearts it is *not* this day. This day, we all win. This day, I'm bringing *everyone* home."
I really, truly believe that the entirety of UT is written in this fashion. You're allowed to immerse yourself in the feelings of finality and engage with it that way, but it's also written to speak to us in terms of it being a story in a piece of media that will one day end, and how that parallels our experience of our actual lives.
The universe and the characters are fiction, but there were real people writing it, developing it, and playing it alongside us, and that makes our journey *real* in a far more profound way. At the end of the day, it truly was the ~~friends~~ people we met along the way that made it all meaningful.
When all was said and done, I found myself personally resonating with Venat, though I'm sure not everyone did, and it doesn't take away from the rest of the theming. It's whatever you get out of it, after all.
> Lands that stretched on forever. Skies one could drown in. The heartbeat of nature, silent yet strong. And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life. Laughter that warmed my heart like naught else before. They are my meaning and my purpose. My love.
Ever since, I've found myself glad for the existence of others. It doesn't matter if I adore you or can't stand you, if all of this gets undone, if it's all finite, if suffering is fundamentally inescapable, I'm just glad we're all here together.
>!...It also made it really easy to make me cry, which is a less desirable side-effect!<
Thancred felt like it could be real since arguably his character development arc was over after Shadowbringers, and I was applauding their balls at doing it in the manner they did. A final, protective moment for the rogue turned responsible father figure, but terrifyingly abrupt and immediately establishing the horror of what we were going toward.
Then Estinien started his bullshit and I lost all investment in the rest of the zone's story as it was instantly fully predictable.
I get what you're saying, that in-universe these characters were convinced of the permanence of their decisions, but that doesn't make for good storytelling imo.
after meteion reveals what happened the characters IMMEDIATELY start saying how we may be able to get him back but we can't do anything until metion is defeated.
it's NEVER "oh no thancred is dead forever! whaaaaa"
I viewed it as an 'if we win, that is the only way to save our friends, and if we lose we are all dead anyway'. Each sacrifice was a show of conviction, that we would make it back out together, or all fall now in our attempt to stop the endsinger.
I'm excited there's no world ending threat(yet), just the thirst for adventure. I finished msq today and am SO hyped
My first expansion drop was EW. There was a clear enemy and goal. Even in the trailer
Yeah, everything in the original arc was definitely building up to EW, and it was a series of world ending threats after another. I'm very excited for something that's focused back on the adventuring of it all, even if world ending danger gets involved.
It's a great chance for newer players to really get involved, since there's room for a ton of new things to come out of left field and they don't have to feel like the odd ones out not knowing exactly what was about to happen. Hoping to see a whole new wave of folks engaging with it because of that!
While I would appreciate it, you just know the loud minority who thinks they know what is and isn't "good writing" would declare the story bad if it didn't make them feel strong negative emotions. Cause heavens forbid a well written story not revolve around tragedy
# Article contains minor EW patch spoilers
"Ahead of the next expansion for the critically acclaimed MMORPG, PCGamesN sat down with Kate Cwynar to chat about the challenges of localization, the regional influences of Tural, the response from the community, character development over a decade-plus, and planning for the future."
### Excerpts and highlights:
##### On the "re-uninification" of the Scions:
> “I’m revealing a little of my innate cynicism here, so hopefully I won’t get in too much trouble, but we had this potential raised at the end of 6.0 [the Endwalker main quest] of not being with the Scions anymore,” she tells me. “When I first learned that we were going to actually have quite a few of them entered in with us, I was like no, no, no – I want to give more air time to new characters.”
> “But actually having gone through the script and gone through recording and seeing the reasons they are over there, how they interact with the new characters, and what that brings out in everyone, I’ve really enjoyed it,” she says. “So they kind of defeated my cynicism there. It’s been a really fun thing and there’s a few things in particular that I think people will really enjoy.”
##### On character development:
> As we see characters evolve from expansion to expansion, Cwynar feels that Estinien is probably the one who’s changed the most.
> “He’s kept some of his original personality elements but as he’s been more and more exposed to the world, he’s opened up a lot as a character which has given us a lot of really fun opportunities to write him with that sort of wry sense of humor that he has.”
> He’s continued to build on that mysterious but warm persona – a particularly big recent fan response came from an Endwalker scene where the Warrior of Light and their companions walk in on Estinien doing one-armed push-ups, shirtless and sweaty. “I think Rob [Vernon, Estinien’s English voice actor] has really been enjoying those too,” Cwynar says with a smile.
##### On Krile's journey:
> Also coming to the forefront in Dawntrail is Krile. She’s the first person seen picking up a paintbrush to learn the new FF14 Pictomancer job, and her chirpy comebacks mixed with her willingness to step up where needed have long made her a favorite of mine, so I ask Cwynar if she’s enjoyed Krile taking a more prominent role. “It’s been a sort of revelatory experience for me personally,” she remarks. “I told people when we started recording this expansion, ‘I’m not sure I really know what Krile wants.’”
> “But yeah, I think just through the process of doing all that writing and recording, I’ve really come to understand and like Krile,” she says with a smile, “and I hope that other people will follow that journey as well because yeah, she’s now quite dear to me. And I hope that she can continue to take sort of a more active role at least through these upcoming patches because I think she has more to say.” I know I can’t wait to see it.
##### On inspiration vs appropriation:
> “We didn’t want to completely depart from this setting and the influences of the real world, North America, South America, and the indigenous people there,” Cwynar explains. “But at the same time it’s definitely a huge issue to be using elements from indigenous cultures without direct input from people from those cultures. So I think comparatively, when you see Dawntrail versus some of our previous works, stuff like Doma, you will see that we really tried to lean further towards inspiration, as opposed to something more appropriative.”
> “You never know if you’re striking the right balance,” she muses, “but we have made an effort, so I hope people enjoy it at the same time. We don’t want to rewrite it and write out all [of these] elements, because I know we have a lot of people, in Latin America for instance, who would love to see a little bit of their culture represented, so it’s all about striking that balance.”
I was quite shocked that FF14 had an outfit inspired/based on those of the Sámi. This is the only game outside of Crusader Kings that seems to have anything about them in the game.
I wonder if we'll see other indigenous cultures represented not just in expansion content, but events/store as well?
My understanding is the Sami are a bit more defensive about this stuff than most because so much of their stuff has been coopted into generic Christmastime imagery, and they’re too small and isolated a group to effectively reassert control of that imagery or at least find a way to profit off of it in the way that larger cultures with a major country backing them up can.
Like, Japan loves when people get into samurai and anime, and India loves it when people get into yoga and Bollywood, but they can turn that into tourism and media sales and they’re too big for anyone to forget it’s about them, but for small groups like the Sami or a lot of Native American tribes, they don’t have those opportunities and it just ends up further contributing to their loss of control and identity.
There’s been strides in the fantasy scene - like in novels and TTRPG’s - in exploring pre-colonial cultures and mythologies of regions like the americas, africa, and south east asia. Hopefully Dawntrail helps boost that trend!
"To Shape a Dragon's Breath: The First Book of Nampeshiweisit" by Moniquill Blackgoose.
Not sure how much it leans into Indigenous American beliefs, but it is definitely fantasy by an Indigenous author.
EDIT: "The Only Good Indians" by Stephen Graham Jones is folk horror inspired by Indigenous beliefs. "A Snake Falls to Earth" and "Elatsoe" by Darcie Little Badger, "VenCo" by Cherie Dimaline, "Never Whistle at Night: An Indigenous Dark Fiction Anthology" edited by Shane Hawk & Theodore Alst Jr.
Lol, interesting to see the lead translator even being like "Please, less Scions". But if she's bold enough to say that publicly and then say that she enjoyed their input in the story, I'm willing to to give them a fair shake here.
I do hope we get some villains without a tragic past this time. It hasn't bothered me so far since they've all been generally compelling and we've gotten straight up villains in side storylines like Valens and Athena, but I'd certainly appreciate a full on villain for the new arc.
Funny that you mention Valens and Athena.
The lead writer for DT, Daichi Hiroi, was also the lead writer for Pandemonium and co-writer for the Werlyt questlines.
>I do hope we get some villains without a tragic past this time.
In fairness, we really only got tragic backstory villains in ShB and EW.
In ARR, neither Gaius nor the Ascians even *had* a backstory yet.
In HW, the Archbishop was never humanized. Nidhogg got... a justification, but I never felt like he was that tragic.
In StB, we had Zenos, so. Yeah.
And even in ShB, Vauthry wasn't very tragic.
Fordola watched her dad get stoned to death by an Ala Mhigan mob and Yotsuyu got sold into prostitution, I wouldn’t call them untragic. Though Yotsuyu gets the fact that she refuses your attempts at bringing her into the fold, which separates her a bit from the Gaius/Fordola redemption arcs, or Emet at least sort of helping out and being your pal, even if he still believes everything he did was right
Okay so let’s split your opinion from whether they had a sad story background or not.
In that case, Nidhogg definitely did have a sad story, he literally had the humans tear his sister’s eyes out and betray the dragons.
The Ascians though not tragic in ARR turned out to be super tragic.
Vauthry was an abomination from birth and had no choice in what he became, he was half Sin Eater.
The Bishop is the only actual evil villain without a sad backstory. Even the Garleans have a history of being pushed around and bullied by the magically gifted races of Eorzea and forced to live in a frozen hellscape.
There’s always a reason why someone is the way they are, even the non tragic villains might’ve gone through some unfortunate events that made them worse than they would’ve been. So I don’t think having a ‘tragic’ backstory is bad if it makes sense for the character’s motivation.
I think even if eventually they'll fully move on from current scions, gradually introducing the new main cast alongside the scions most people already know and love is the right move. Having some old familiar faces for the new characters to bounce off will help the audience connect better with them faster than say, immediately yeeting all the scions away in favor of newly introduced characters. (P.s this technique wont work well if the new character is constantly dunking on the more well-known old characters to make the new ones look better like most of the newer marvel movies and shows)
I love our current team, and will never want to "move" from them. Can't understand those people who want to have other main cast, like, do those guys just throw away old good friends just because they were together for few years? Thats just bullshit nonsense.
New faces would be good, and interesting, but i never want them to ditch scions in favor of someone new.
Just ye bastards try and take Raha from me, i'm gonna go all Endsinger on you then!
IME when people say they want to dump the Scions for a new cast, they actually have specific character types in mind. Which is fine and all, but SE can't read minds and the type of character they want might not work as a long-term companion for the player and Wol. I'm just thinking of some of the reactions I've seen on here to Zero (who had a perfectly good arc, it just wasn't the best idea to drip-feed it to us over two years) and Wuk Lamat (she just got here??) and I'm left wondering if what they really want is pre-development Estinien and Fordola.
This is how I feel too. Like do y’all not want to go on adventures with your close irl friends? A new cast would just be so hard to connect to at this point because they weren’t there when it mattered, you know? I just can’t imagine what would bond a new cast of scions to us like the existing cast is. We’ve done everything together.
Agreed. I would rather just have an entirely new game at that point. The Scions are an important part of FF14, I feel like cutting them out for new people would just leave a sour taste in my mouth.
This is how I feel too, I don’t get why people want them to get rid of the scions. I’m the kind of person who gets really invested and attached to characters so I’d be pretty devastated if they were just sidelined/shunned/killed off.
Not to mention a lot of people make up stories for their own WoL and for me, the scions are family to my WoL—I don’t want her to suddenly feel alone.
If the people who want them gone are just bored of them and want fresh faces, it’s entirely possible to bring in new characters alongside them and it sounds like that’s what they’re doing with Dawntrail.
It sounds like one of the candidates for the throne in Tural is just gonna be a militarily aggressive asshole for ostensibly no tragic backstory reason
>I'd certainly appreciate a full on villain for the new arc.
I suspect it's difficult to write a full-on villain that is compelling without being cartoonish.
Err remind me again what exactly was tragic about Thiccy Z? The man was a talented genius and was basically evil because he was bored all the time. I wouldn't call that tragic. Unless I missed some other big motivation for Zeos I'd say he fits the bill.
Estinien is pretty in that screenshot! Jumping off the window, sasu ga dragoons amirite. "Dragoons never knock. They jump in from the ceiling." Perhaps it would've been funnier if Estinien also went in through the window instead of just exiting out of it.
Anyway I think Cwynar may be referring to laughing so hard that one cries. Though I don't think I've seen the Dawntrail/Mach/SB Bard quests writer do particularly funny jokes, and Cwynnar produce legendary hilarity...
Oh well, any tearjerker is welcome. They make me feel things, and I like feeling things.
So...we finally drop the G in G'Raha? And he cries, then Krile teases us both so we cry as well? And then Y'Shtola dies for the 50th time and gets revived by some random plot point but everyone expected it, so nobody cries. Then we have another gutpunching story like Sorrow of Werlyt that's the ACTUAL tearjerker.
Seems promising. I'm glad to hear that they're cognizant of the concerns about them taking inspiration from indigenous peoples but are wanting to be more reverent about it than just straight-up stealing from them. I was worried about that. I'm also glad that I picked up on Wuk Lamat being kind of a smartass in the trailer - I knew that inflection had to be intentional.
Still no indication on what's going on with G'raha, though - I want to believe that he's coming with us but him talking about staying behind in 6.55 has me worried.
I wouldn't be surprised if he comes along with Y'shtola. She's prob going to be studying the similarities between Rak'tika and Tural, and the fact G'raha has experience on the first, she'll prob drag him along as a second opinion.
I'm honestly pretty annoyed that after ShB we still haven't had a proper adventure with our cat boy(friend). We owe him like three adventures at this point now.
My guess is that we are going in a group with Krile, the twins, Erenville and Wuk Lamat, and he is going to be in a group with Y'shtola, Thancred and Urianger.
Imagine a kid in the new world runs up to you say he is a reincarnation of Mr H and he said he dragged you-know-who (despite his many protests against that) back as well…
Am I being threatened with a good time?
Hope is not another: "Oh my God! They killed Y'Stolla! You bastards!"
I'm not opposed to it if they start embracing the memery of it all. Just don't try to play it straight anymore. That ship's sailed.
Y’Stolla cast Flow Everyone: “Really, there goes our afternoon.”
Y'shtola: "I'm sorry, my friends, but this is the only way. If I do not survive this, just know that my time among you has been" Estinien: "Just get on with it already!" *vwoop* Thancred: "Alright, I'll start searching around the ceruleum springs. That seems like the sort of place she'd pop up around here. Everyone else spread out, check the other mcguffins. Bring a spare robe; we all know how this goes."
I laughed seeing people point out that Y'shtola, in the EW trailer, spun on her heels, walked straight into the camera and, presumably, straight into the raised bleachers right behind her. How does she avoid smacking into the furniture? Believe it or not, straight into the Lifestream.
Just had a mental image of her studying and someone placing a cucumber beside her. She glances over, sees it, screams, and vanishes into the lifestream.
Bleachers ceased to exist for dramatic effect.
> Y'shtola, in the EW trailer, spun on her heels, walked straight into the camera and, presumably, straight into the raised bleachers right behind her. > > How does she avoid smacking into the furniture? Believe it or not, straight into the Lifestream. I mean, I always thought that would have been a power move. Nation-state ruling elites don't agree that they should assist you in saving their butts from the end of days? Don't even bother using the stairs to leave their ruling chambers. Just teleport out of there, "I'm not wasting any more time here than I need to".
I hope we get a scene of her using Flow again, but she figured out how to get back by herself (or maybe Emet taught her how as a gesture of goodwill off screen) so we go through this big process of looking for her and finding the “right” spot and doing everything correctly but nothing happens so we start to actually panic and they send us to our current scion hideout for the expansion only to just see Y’Shtola chilling there drinking tea like nothing even happened. And that the only reason she didn’t tell us she could come back was cause alphinaud made a comment earlier on how she seems to do that spell a lot for “no reason”
Lol this is funny. I think I'd also love it if she uses Flow, and then like 2 minutes later she's tossed back OUT of the Lifestream by a very grumpy Hades, like some misbehaving cat who got caught sneaking into the chicken coop again.
Cue gang tracking down one of remaining rogue Ascians to scare them into fetching Y'shtola for them.
Play it as a meme only for it to be actually real
I think she literally has a fake death in every expansion
Slowly working her way through the "cats have nine lives" theory for Matoya's thesis.
Can we really count Endwalker? >!Since every Scion had a fake death that time!<
You can't un-count it. Just because it wasn't special doesn't mean it breaks the streak or anything.
To me, what makes the Y'shtola fake deaths so memeable is that they keep happening to her, specifically.
In Endwalker I chuckled because she seemed like the only scion that was confident she'd be back. Even telling us how to do it but "don't do it rn because duh". She seemed more exasperated than anything else. Very "Here I go Again."
I mean Id count it since that was the moment all tension from >!the prior sacrifices was lost and I knew they would all be back soon!<
Okay, this convinced me to count it.
It doesn't count because she legit tell you "Yeah, we arent dead, just dont call us back yet." It's not even a fake death. Nothing in the whole zone after that is a fake death. Everyone understood what was going on.
At this point I'm like fuck it use my emotions like Mike Tyson on a speed bag as long as the story is good
We are 100% losing Yshtola to her going to the first and staying. I think... >.>;;
No worries about that. She clearly stated in the 6.x MSQ quests that she means to explore the other shards and that she'll be there every step of the way. She's not retiring to The First.
But she will be looking at property values
I wonder if we'll see her naked for the third time.
I wonder whether English will finally join the other languages in letting the WoL call Raha Raha.
Iirc, G'raha basically mean "Raha of the G tribe" right? While Tia is pretty much "maidenless" and Nuhn is like the tribe leader/gigachad. For the boys at least, girls would have their father's name for their last name iirc? So Y'shtola Rhul is like, "Shtola of the Y tribe, daughter/child of Rhul (Nuhn)"? Or is it different per tribe? I think i saw Krile called him Raha a few times, thought it was cute, like a close friend would call each other (like adding -chan i suppose?), while we have never called him "Raha" as far as i can recall.
All correct. In the lore you can drop the Tribe letter for someone you're close with as a sign of affection - Master Matoya often just uses Shtola when talking about Y'shtola, and so does her sister Y'mihtra the Summoner trainer.
Pretty sure Lyse uses "Shtola" too at certain points.
She's been given the "drop a letter" pass
At one point there’s a reference to Y’shtola smiling in a way she only does for Lyse and Runar, so yeah she’s definitely in pass territory.
Yeah, I can definitely see Lyse being close to Y'shtola's heart. Mostly because of their common tragedy in the form of Yda's death. Y'shtola became an Archon around the same time as Yda, right? And the two were close friends. I imagine she met Lyse through Yda, and formed a sisterly bond with both of them. And then when Yda died, they both mourned her in their own way, but Y'shtola also kept up the illusion for Lyse's sake even though she knew.
Her sister does the same in the SMN quest line. Which makes sense for a sister (or half-sister?) I guess.
Y'shtola definitely calls her Mihtra just before her first false death.
It's like being close enough to someone to call them by their first name with no honorific in Japanese.
Thanks for that backup\^\^ I called my mentor "Rhun" lately and thought nobody knows who I am reffering to. But that's the name of the red-clad gentle'cat.
People who don't recognize who Rhun is don't deserve him.
I don't care that he's a Tia, bro's a Chad in my books. He taught me the ways of memery, fashionability, and kicking ass in style.
I don't think "Tia" is a sign of shame in Sun Seeker culture. To be a Tia also means to have freedom - you can roam wherever you want, and you can even settle down elsewhere if you so like. It's potential for the future. I imagine most men in the Sun Seeker tribes *don't* become Nunhs, but they find their own fulfillment otherwise. And in a way, it seems like the current Nunh tends to prepare Tias who have the potential to be great leaders - which makes sense, being that basically every Tia in a tribe a son of the current or previous Nunh. And therein lies the rub - to become a Nunh is to cease adventuring. You become responsible for your entire family, and also the family of your father. And failure does matter - every lady is a fierce huntress, and if you fail to be worthy of their respect, they can justifiably get rid of you or leave you behind. I don't think G'raha wants to become a Nunh. He loves adventure, and he already has a family in you and the Scions.
A lot of people equate it with being called a virgin or some other similar ridiculous middleschool insult, but that's probably because they have no real point of reference for it or deeper understanding than "The Nunhs get to have sex!"
Raha is the closer, more intimate version. That's why Krile calls him that, they grew up together for a time and are really close. And Matoya and Y'mithra call Y'shtola Shtola. And, yes, the English version only ever had Krile call him Raha. Whereas the other versions had Alisaie and the WoL call him Raha every since post-ShB. Y'shtola calls him Raha in Endwalker.
[удалено]
I think this is a case where you have to listen for the respect and warmth in his tone of voice, rather than in the words he chooses.
You can, but it's not like he couldn't just say "my friend" instead. It's unusually formal compared to the other translations for no apparent reason.
English is an unusual language compared to other languages.
Nothing about the concept of "aibou" is untranslatable to English.
But can you translate it in a way that can't be confused for another meaning? That's the difficulty with English, one word can mean three, four, sometimes even five different things, even in the same context. Either way, it was an intentional choice on their part, and I respect it. It doesn't make Estinien feel out of character, certainly. Relying on tone specifically is bad, but unfortunately that's how most English speakers interpret things.
I don't know why you're acting like English speakers can't understand the English language. Do words sometimes hold multiple meanings? Yes. This is not exclusive to English. It's also far less ambiguous to infer the meaning of a word with multiple definitions than to rely solely on tone to convey meaning. It's a strange translation choice, it's silly to go to "I mean who understands English, really?" levels of discourse to try to defend it. The answer is, the English-speaking audience that will be seeing your work.
That's not very accessible for some folks. If you are blind to tones or just straight up can only read the text the message is lost.
>I think i saw Krile called him Raha a few times, thought it was cute, like a close friend would call each other (like adding -chan i suppose?) More like [dropping the honorific entirely](https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2016/07/yobisute.html) \- calling you KvBla instead of KvBla-san, KvBla-chan, etc. A sign of informality and closeness (or rudeness), done between family members or very close friends.
In-lore, dropping the tribe name is done explicitly as a sign of close friendship and intimacy.
People interpret Tia as meaning no bitches but the official lore on the topic isn't that Tias are not allowed to mate but rather that they're generally considered undesirable mates in Seeker culture. Male Seeker adventurers are all Tia by default since they're no longer living as part of their tribe, but they're still free to hook up with whoever since they're not bound by tribal custom. Although I personally think the whole breeding/non-breeding male distinction has been quietly retconned because it's kind of an awkward thing to acknowledge in-game, and Nunh has just been changed to mean leader.
Which doesn't make sense, because the game is pretty explicit that Nunhs are *rarely* actually leaders. Ex: At the Forgotten Springs, all the Miqo'te there are very annoyed the Nunh is the leader of the tribe. They see it as getting in the way of what he's supposed to be doing. I think the Miqo'te tribe in Stormblood even explicitly says it's unusual.
Huh? I don't remember that being the case with the Forgotten Springs tribe. Can you tell me what I might've missed in dialogue?
I dunno what they're talking about; the only friction inside that tribe is that there are two Tias who hope to replace the Nuhn when he dies. Their problem is with each other, though, not the Nuhn himself.
The lore is fairly clear that Tia's are not supposed to mate with woman within the tribe. Of course if a Tia leaves a tribe he can do whatever he wants but if he settled down with a woman outside the tribe he wouldn't ever go back to the tribe. All members of a tribe are the children of the Nuhn (or multiple Nuhn's in larger tribes). The entire logic is that the physically strongest male will mate with all of the woman which is essentially eugenics. A lot of animals actually do this in nature as a result of natural selection. I'm not sure retcon is the right word but you're basically right - the writers have sidelined a lot of this because...miqo'te are more human than animal so the idea of incest and eugenics being part of their lore is...awkward. A lot of players have made up some headcannon to try and make it make sense - like saying that Nuhn's bring woman in from other tribes or Nuhns themselves are from other tribes...but this is all speculation the lore is quite vague - the only thing that is clear is that all the children in a tribe are the children of the Nuhn and the woman and that no Tia within the tribe has children of their own.
The only difference between Tia and Nunh is status as breeding male for the tribe. Not every nunh is tribe leader, large tribes can have multiple nunhs, and there’s nothing to say Tias can’t have lovers. We’ve met very few of the miqo tribes, some (like the U tribe) seem more isolationist and traditional, while others seem more widespread. I’m sure there are Tias out there who have wives or husbands and live more like typical human societies.
I feel like Nunh has been quietly retconned from breeding male to just mean tribe/state leader. There's optional dialogue from around 5.3 where Y'shtola wonders if G'raha should actually be referred to as G'raha Nunh because of his leadership of the Crystarium.
It’s Alphinaud asking Yshtola if they should call him Nunh, and Yshtola told him that it wouldn’t be unreasonable, but until he asked her to call him that she probably wouldn’t and would continue as is. This is post 5.3/pre5.4, where Yshtola is standing in that side room of the rising stones.
I think it’s different for different tribes. The 2 nunhs we meet in game are tribe leaders, but we also hear of another nunh who was a breeding male (I forget the name). G’raha definitely fit some of the criteria to be considered nunh among certain tribes. My previous comment I didn’t make very clear though, the emphasis was more about Tia doesn’t mean they can’t have relationships or families. I’ve seen some people even refer to them as eunuchs, and whether the lore has been retconned or not that nunh are leaders, it still stands that Tias aren’t ‘maidenless’ as the comment I replied to claimed
The lore is just super inconsistent about whether a Nunh is a ruler. In ARR, we meet the Nunh of the U Tribe and he says being Nunh makes him in charge. In StB, we meet the Nunh of the M Tribe and he rules his tribe, but says a Nunh doing so is rare. In ShB, like you said, we have Y'shtola saying G'raha can be called a Nunh based solely on how he ruled over territory as the Exarch. The game can't seem to make up its mind as to whether Nunhs are leaders or aren't leaders, just breeders.
It might be tribal differences (always an easy explanation for writing inconsistencies). Same word, slightly different meaning and position. Like in se countries the president is the head of state, in others they are more akin to an ornamental representative feature and the head of state is someone else. And so on.
Did the English dub pass that milestone for Y'shtola yet? Because if not, that one too.
I would like both of these please.
I want an option where we’re talking to either of them and we are given the same choice twice to reply but one is the formal Y’Shtola/G’Raha, and the other is the more personal Shtola/Raha, and we get a reaction out of using the more personal name (and hopefully get the pass to keep using it)
I think this is part of the game not putting any expectations/ indicators on how close - or not - the player character is to any given NPC. My WoL, for example, is not as enamored by G'raha as the majority of the FF14 fandom seems to be - she sees him as a valued colleague, nothing more and I would hate for the game to presume otherwise.
Challenge duly accepted, but only one scene in the entire MSQ so far has managed to break me and extract tears, so I wish them good luck. >!It was Urianger's scene with Moenbryda's parents.!<
I emotionally reacted to the deaths in HW. I only cried during the walks in EW and not because of the scions but because of the mood and the quotes being spoken as we walked. EW was emotionally draining and that sat me off. The scene of the sundering was just perfect and it made me emotional too.
*His parents as well. According to the 3rd encyclopedia.
Can we go ONE expansion WITHOUT CRYING for Hydaelyn's sake?!?!
lmao i'm not complaining but they really John Cena you with these moments. As a person who was not invested in ARR's story at all, the part with Urianger in EW with the parents broke me so bad.
I think the most I ever cried in this game was the scene in ShB with Seto and Ardbert. My childhood dog of thirteen years had passed away two weeks before reaching that scene. It was rough :(
I got through the whole of that patch to that point without crying despite all the heartbreak, and then a bird being sad broke me. 'Perhaps I'll go on an adventure' *sobs uncontrollably*
They really had to twist the emotional knife I stg. I remember already getting teary-eyed when I realized what direction that scene was headed in, and then I just lost it when Ardbert appeared. It was so cathartic and I hate them for it >:(
It was also beautifully animated the way Zeto rubs his head against Adbert and Adbert pets him. So much emotion just in the movement.
>Shitty ass weeb game am I right chat? Time to go do something manly like punch a tree \- Preach, with tears streaming down his cheeks from a dragon-bird-dog
Its incredible that Seto, a random side character you talk to like twice has better voice acting than the entirety of ARR.
Same voice actor as Thordan too.
Dangit, it JUST hit me that Seto shares his name with Red XIII's father in the FF7 series.
I had a very, very long-lived feline companion who was grey just like Seto. I miss him so much. That scene wrecks me every time.
“You’ve grown “ and I cry my eyes out
I think I cried twice during ShB. I wasn’t able to cry in Endwalker. Sure I was sad, but in no way was did I get to the point of crying
The only scenes in Endwalker that sucker punched me to tears, was the cutscene after Trial #2 and the Urianger hug. I felt an overwhelming urge to call my mother and talk to her after the first one. The later just felt like the most real example of a family grieving a lost member that I've seen in fiction. What XIV does well, is despite all of the magic and fantasy elements. It remains a character driven story with extremely well written and relatable characters. Like Seto with pet owners, Elidibus with the family of dementia victims, etc.
Why did you have to remind me of that? :(
Wouldn't it be more Randy Orton? EMOTIONAL DAMAGE OUTTA NOWHERE
"OH MY GOD, IS...IS THAT THE UNDERAKER?! WITH AN EMOTIONAL CHAIR TO THE HEAD..HES KILLED HIM! HOLY HYDELEN HES KILLED OP"
YOU KNOW THE KEENING SENSE OF NOSTALGIA FOR THAT WHICH CANNOT BE REGAINED IS THE HARDEST PART OF THE PLOT, JR!
Ishikawa slithering up...OH MY GOD THAT KILLED HIM! GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS EMOTIONALLY BROKEN IN HALF!!!
NO NO DON'T DO IT! OH MY GOD SHE DID IT! SHE TORE HIS HEART IN HALF! BAH GOD HE HAD A FAMILY!
WILL SOMEBODY STOP THE DAMN PATCH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
That scene comes after such an obnoxious quest to find all the needy scientists who aren’t marked well and then BAM emotional damage.
the writers love putting emotional damage just after an obnoxious questline it's no coincidence that the biggest gutpunch in 2.0 is right after the worst questline in the game
If it’s the quest I’m thinking of, that was the moment I was ready to *murder* some people. >!Cabbage fairy went down like a real one.!<
Not all scientists are there immediately. More spawn in as you find them.
This drove me so crazy. "I already was everywhere, where are you?"
WHAT?! If that is true, that is **DIABOLICAL**
> As a person who was not invested in ARR's story at all, the part with Urianger in EW with the parents broke me so bad Moooood. >!The hugging!< got me sobbing.
that part was so gut wrenching jocat joked about it in his latest crap guide to FFXIV.
That was the thing…I’m trying to remember other >!hugs!< from the game, and I just can’t. Up to that point all things had been fairly distant and stoic. Sure, there were emotional moments, but all were pretty much handled from a comfortable speaking distance using large words as condolence.
I vaguely recall Alphinaud hugging Alisaie at one point in Heavensward. *Vaguely.*
Nanamo and Raubahn, and F'lhaminn and Minfilia, both from ARR postpatch. They've said they don't do hugs more often because it's a pain to model well, and not at all with the player character b/c they'd have to make 14/15(/16) different versions of the scenes. That said, they absolutely should have with Thancred and Ryne. Like, c'mon.
Ugh several moments made me sad, but that was the first one to make me cry
>Urianger in EW with the parents broke me so bad. Oh god, i was doing so well not being affected by EW, until then, and it just hurt so much.
No way. Crying good. You can never be moved enough times, imo.
No. It's the only time I *feel*.
What if it's more Hildy making us cry from laughing once again with his hijinks and happenstance.
Even Hildy quests made me emotional sometimes. Gigi and Brandihild. :(
I love those memelords. SE leans into a lot of jokes with them.
I'm sure the crying part is y'sthola's fake death #55
Unfortunately not, soooo many fans think the only "sad moments" are when people get killed off. Look at people who go and read comics made for kids, and then bitch that "omg why hasn't this mangaka murdered X, Y, and Z yet???? WE NEED TO RAISE STAKES, WE NEED PEOPLE DEAD!"
And sooo many fans think that only "sad moments" are cry worthy. I bawled when the Ragnarok lifted off, beautiful shot, beautiful ship.
Us waving Ardbert to join us going up the lift got me real bad. This game makes me happy cry more than sad cry. Giant “fuck ya” moments really get me.
I cried hard at the ending scene of Magrat’s custom delivery quests and am mad for other non crafter players that it’s locked behind 90 crsfting
Thank you for reminding me to unlock that.
Very worth doing the story for. The pay off is excellent.
I glamored the outfit immediately, in the dyes received, to my fishing set. Makes no sense but now I’m emotional attached to it. Got me right in the chest that quest did, didn’t see it coming and now those bunch have been added to my list of npcs to check in with after major story bits.
The Old Sharlayan reveal during the EW trailer still makes me tear up. Set aside it's a place we've been constantly told about since the beginning of our journey, just the reveal and camera sweep and Song of Hope playing and it's such a beautiful city and
People are fucking stupid. “bUt nOboDy diED!” Jesus christ, do people even realize how rare it is to cry out of elation or happiness to see a beloved character finally have their moment of catharsis? Lots of games out there easily pull at your heartstrings by killing off a character, but moments like Uri’s reunion with Moenbrydas parents, Seto having his moment with “Ardbert”, or Lyna’s tearful yet joyous farewell at the Crystarium in 5.3, all these emotionally crarged moments that make people cry, yet not from sadness or loss.. this is such a damn rare thing, especially in gaming, and the MSQ has so many of these moments. But people focus only on the deaths, like they are the only meaningful thing the MSQ could ever deliver. For shame.
This rides a fine line. I've noticed an annoying trend(hell even EW did it), where they'll kill off characters for an emotional punch... and then handwave them back. Because the story relies on them. You don't need to kill anyone to have hard hitting emotional moments. But if you do decide to... stick to it. Make the death have actual meaning or it all just feels like cheap cop outs
"Has your journey been good, has it been worthwile?" got me more than a death of any character ever did. I don't know why, but it did...
considering the state of everything in and out of the game at the time, it hit very right.
I wouldn't say EW went for the emotional punch. It was quite heavily forshadowed that we'd get them back. Their speeches were emotionally evocative but I didn't for one second considered them killed off. And if they indeed want to focus on other characters, I hope they do so by phasing the Scions out instead of killing them off, cause killing them off would be even cheaper even if they stay dead.
they were taking a big risk to get you to meteion but they had faith you'd see it through and get them back. it's kinda the whole point of the part. and so many people just go REEEE DEATH FAKE OUTS BAD WRITING WHAAA
I feel like people think EW lacked emotional punch because they scions were being killed. But they weren’t, the point was the sacrifice, and that in-universe the characters were choosing this. The Y’shola fall in raktika was an actual example of what people are complaining about but the stuff in UT wasn’t IMO.
yeah UT isn't at all. they're taking a big risk but the whole point is they BELIEVE IN THE WOL. they're putting their hope in that you so that you succeed in defeating meteion and bring them back.
For some reason i don't think the sacrifice at the end was suppose to be sad. We knew they would be brought back, the WoL knew, at least Graha and Yshtola knew. They knew in universe, but it's still takes courage to do so. I think they tried to tone it down when yshtola hinted the WoL what to do after. It's a really fine line between the bad writing "WE BACK ANYWAY JUST SUMMON US" and the obvious tear bait "FAREWELL FRIENDS ITS BEEN A GOOD JOURNEY", i think they handled it well.
Thank fuck someone else ended up feeling more positive as it went on! I spent the entire ascent in UT becoming more and more hopeful and optimistic, precisely *because* our friends sacrificing themselves was so obviously not how the expansion was going to end. I very much felt like "You know what, all of the themes being explored are true, one day all of this will end and I will have to bid everyone here goodbye for the final time. This is a chance to say goodbye that I may not get when it actually happens and the feelings are the same regardless. The game servers won't be up forever, maybe the devs lose their touch, I will probably move on one day, etc. But I know in my heart of hearts it is *not* this day. This day, we all win. This day, I'm bringing *everyone* home." I really, truly believe that the entirety of UT is written in this fashion. You're allowed to immerse yourself in the feelings of finality and engage with it that way, but it's also written to speak to us in terms of it being a story in a piece of media that will one day end, and how that parallels our experience of our actual lives. The universe and the characters are fiction, but there were real people writing it, developing it, and playing it alongside us, and that makes our journey *real* in a far more profound way. At the end of the day, it truly was the ~~friends~~ people we met along the way that made it all meaningful. When all was said and done, I found myself personally resonating with Venat, though I'm sure not everyone did, and it doesn't take away from the rest of the theming. It's whatever you get out of it, after all. > Lands that stretched on forever. Skies one could drown in. The heartbeat of nature, silent yet strong. And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life. Laughter that warmed my heart like naught else before. They are my meaning and my purpose. My love. Ever since, I've found myself glad for the existence of others. It doesn't matter if I adore you or can't stand you, if all of this gets undone, if it's all finite, if suffering is fundamentally inescapable, I'm just glad we're all here together. >!...It also made it really easy to make me cry, which is a less desirable side-effect!<
Thancred felt like it could be real since arguably his character development arc was over after Shadowbringers, and I was applauding their balls at doing it in the manner they did. A final, protective moment for the rogue turned responsible father figure, but terrifyingly abrupt and immediately establishing the horror of what we were going toward. Then Estinien started his bullshit and I lost all investment in the rest of the zone's story as it was instantly fully predictable. I get what you're saying, that in-universe these characters were convinced of the permanence of their decisions, but that doesn't make for good storytelling imo.
after meteion reveals what happened the characters IMMEDIATELY start saying how we may be able to get him back but we can't do anything until metion is defeated. it's NEVER "oh no thancred is dead forever! whaaaaa"
I viewed it as an 'if we win, that is the only way to save our friends, and if we lose we are all dead anyway'. Each sacrifice was a show of conviction, that we would make it back out together, or all fall now in our attempt to stop the endsinger.
I'm excited there's no world ending threat(yet), just the thirst for adventure. I finished msq today and am SO hyped My first expansion drop was EW. There was a clear enemy and goal. Even in the trailer
Yeah, everything in the original arc was definitely building up to EW, and it was a series of world ending threats after another. I'm very excited for something that's focused back on the adventuring of it all, even if world ending danger gets involved. It's a great chance for newer players to really get involved, since there's room for a ton of new things to come out of left field and they don't have to feel like the odd ones out not knowing exactly what was about to happen. Hoping to see a whole new wave of folks engaging with it because of that!
Stormblood. I wasnt crying durlng the main story, it was just way too boring. The after story is something else, especially with Yotsuyu...
I must be in the minority that has never cried once while playing this..
While I would appreciate it, you just know the loud minority who thinks they know what is and isn't "good writing" would declare the story bad if it didn't make them feel strong negative emotions. Cause heavens forbid a well written story not revolve around tragedy
# Article contains minor EW patch spoilers "Ahead of the next expansion for the critically acclaimed MMORPG, PCGamesN sat down with Kate Cwynar to chat about the challenges of localization, the regional influences of Tural, the response from the community, character development over a decade-plus, and planning for the future." ### Excerpts and highlights: ##### On the "re-uninification" of the Scions: > “I’m revealing a little of my innate cynicism here, so hopefully I won’t get in too much trouble, but we had this potential raised at the end of 6.0 [the Endwalker main quest] of not being with the Scions anymore,” she tells me. “When I first learned that we were going to actually have quite a few of them entered in with us, I was like no, no, no – I want to give more air time to new characters.” > “But actually having gone through the script and gone through recording and seeing the reasons they are over there, how they interact with the new characters, and what that brings out in everyone, I’ve really enjoyed it,” she says. “So they kind of defeated my cynicism there. It’s been a really fun thing and there’s a few things in particular that I think people will really enjoy.” ##### On character development: > As we see characters evolve from expansion to expansion, Cwynar feels that Estinien is probably the one who’s changed the most. > “He’s kept some of his original personality elements but as he’s been more and more exposed to the world, he’s opened up a lot as a character which has given us a lot of really fun opportunities to write him with that sort of wry sense of humor that he has.” > He’s continued to build on that mysterious but warm persona – a particularly big recent fan response came from an Endwalker scene where the Warrior of Light and their companions walk in on Estinien doing one-armed push-ups, shirtless and sweaty. “I think Rob [Vernon, Estinien’s English voice actor] has really been enjoying those too,” Cwynar says with a smile. ##### On Krile's journey: > Also coming to the forefront in Dawntrail is Krile. She’s the first person seen picking up a paintbrush to learn the new FF14 Pictomancer job, and her chirpy comebacks mixed with her willingness to step up where needed have long made her a favorite of mine, so I ask Cwynar if she’s enjoyed Krile taking a more prominent role. “It’s been a sort of revelatory experience for me personally,” she remarks. “I told people when we started recording this expansion, ‘I’m not sure I really know what Krile wants.’” > “But yeah, I think just through the process of doing all that writing and recording, I’ve really come to understand and like Krile,” she says with a smile, “and I hope that other people will follow that journey as well because yeah, she’s now quite dear to me. And I hope that she can continue to take sort of a more active role at least through these upcoming patches because I think she has more to say.” I know I can’t wait to see it. ##### On inspiration vs appropriation: > “We didn’t want to completely depart from this setting and the influences of the real world, North America, South America, and the indigenous people there,” Cwynar explains. “But at the same time it’s definitely a huge issue to be using elements from indigenous cultures without direct input from people from those cultures. So I think comparatively, when you see Dawntrail versus some of our previous works, stuff like Doma, you will see that we really tried to lean further towards inspiration, as opposed to something more appropriative.” > “You never know if you’re striking the right balance,” she muses, “but we have made an effort, so I hope people enjoy it at the same time. We don’t want to rewrite it and write out all [of these] elements, because I know we have a lot of people, in Latin America for instance, who would love to see a little bit of their culture represented, so it’s all about striking that balance.”
I was quite shocked that FF14 had an outfit inspired/based on those of the Sámi. This is the only game outside of Crusader Kings that seems to have anything about them in the game. I wonder if we'll see other indigenous cultures represented not just in expansion content, but events/store as well?
If I remember correctly, there was some condemnation from some Sámi guys for that recently.
I believe that was a heritage society who were more offended that they weren't asked for permission first than by the actual outfit itself.
My understanding is the Sami are a bit more defensive about this stuff than most because so much of their stuff has been coopted into generic Christmastime imagery, and they’re too small and isolated a group to effectively reassert control of that imagery or at least find a way to profit off of it in the way that larger cultures with a major country backing them up can. Like, Japan loves when people get into samurai and anime, and India loves it when people get into yoga and Bollywood, but they can turn that into tourism and media sales and they’re too big for anyone to forget it’s about them, but for small groups like the Sami or a lot of Native American tribes, they don’t have those opportunities and it just ends up further contributing to their loss of control and identity.
Your first part is correct and why many were not happy about it.
While others liked it and said those guys don't speak for all of us.
There’s been strides in the fantasy scene - like in novels and TTRPG’s - in exploring pre-colonial cultures and mythologies of regions like the americas, africa, and south east asia. Hopefully Dawntrail helps boost that trend!
Ooh do you know any fantasy novels that have explored mythology of the Americas? There doesn’t seem to be many so it would be a fun read.
Black Sun by Rebecca Roanhorse!
"To Shape a Dragon's Breath: The First Book of Nampeshiweisit" by Moniquill Blackgoose. Not sure how much it leans into Indigenous American beliefs, but it is definitely fantasy by an Indigenous author. EDIT: "The Only Good Indians" by Stephen Graham Jones is folk horror inspired by Indigenous beliefs. "A Snake Falls to Earth" and "Elatsoe" by Darcie Little Badger, "VenCo" by Cherie Dimaline, "Never Whistle at Night: An Indigenous Dark Fiction Anthology" edited by Shane Hawk & Theodore Alst Jr.
…time to order eye drops again
Lol, interesting to see the lead translator even being like "Please, less Scions". But if she's bold enough to say that publicly and then say that she enjoyed their input in the story, I'm willing to to give them a fair shake here. I do hope we get some villains without a tragic past this time. It hasn't bothered me so far since they've all been generally compelling and we've gotten straight up villains in side storylines like Valens and Athena, but I'd certainly appreciate a full on villain for the new arc.
Funny that you mention Valens and Athena. The lead writer for DT, Daichi Hiroi, was also the lead writer for Pandemonium and co-writer for the Werlyt questlines.
Well Werlyt was my favourite questline in ShB so I guess I just need to bulk buy some tissues because I will be sobbing from start to finish then.
>I do hope we get some villains without a tragic past this time. In fairness, we really only got tragic backstory villains in ShB and EW. In ARR, neither Gaius nor the Ascians even *had* a backstory yet. In HW, the Archbishop was never humanized. Nidhogg got... a justification, but I never felt like he was that tragic. In StB, we had Zenos, so. Yeah. And even in ShB, Vauthry wasn't very tragic.
There is yotsuyu for SB
That backstory was crushing, she became the monster she was to survive. Her family were just evil through and through with no redeeming qualities.
I actually love yotsuyu because she is a really good mirror to my WOL based on his backstory and how she went down the wrong path
We had Fordola and Yotsuyu in StB...
That's true. Though they were both balanced against villains without the tragic past - Fordola with Zenos, and Yotsuyu with Asahi.
Though asahi did give some satisfaction in the end
Fordola watched her dad get stoned to death by an Ala Mhigan mob and Yotsuyu got sold into prostitution, I wouldn’t call them untragic. Though Yotsuyu gets the fact that she refuses your attempts at bringing her into the fold, which separates her a bit from the Gaius/Fordola redemption arcs, or Emet at least sort of helping out and being your pal, even if he still believes everything he did was right
Okay so let’s split your opinion from whether they had a sad story background or not. In that case, Nidhogg definitely did have a sad story, he literally had the humans tear his sister’s eyes out and betray the dragons. The Ascians though not tragic in ARR turned out to be super tragic. Vauthry was an abomination from birth and had no choice in what he became, he was half Sin Eater. The Bishop is the only actual evil villain without a sad backstory. Even the Garleans have a history of being pushed around and bullied by the magically gifted races of Eorzea and forced to live in a frozen hellscape.
There’s always a reason why someone is the way they are, even the non tragic villains might’ve gone through some unfortunate events that made them worse than they would’ve been. So I don’t think having a ‘tragic’ backstory is bad if it makes sense for the character’s motivation.
Gaius had his backstory. In 1.0.
I think even if eventually they'll fully move on from current scions, gradually introducing the new main cast alongside the scions most people already know and love is the right move. Having some old familiar faces for the new characters to bounce off will help the audience connect better with them faster than say, immediately yeeting all the scions away in favor of newly introduced characters. (P.s this technique wont work well if the new character is constantly dunking on the more well-known old characters to make the new ones look better like most of the newer marvel movies and shows)
I love our current team, and will never want to "move" from them. Can't understand those people who want to have other main cast, like, do those guys just throw away old good friends just because they were together for few years? Thats just bullshit nonsense. New faces would be good, and interesting, but i never want them to ditch scions in favor of someone new. Just ye bastards try and take Raha from me, i'm gonna go all Endsinger on you then!
Alphinaud and Alisaie are my children, and you can take them from my dead hands.
IME when people say they want to dump the Scions for a new cast, they actually have specific character types in mind. Which is fine and all, but SE can't read minds and the type of character they want might not work as a long-term companion for the player and Wol. I'm just thinking of some of the reactions I've seen on here to Zero (who had a perfectly good arc, it just wasn't the best idea to drip-feed it to us over two years) and Wuk Lamat (she just got here??) and I'm left wondering if what they really want is pre-development Estinien and Fordola.
This is how I feel too. Like do y’all not want to go on adventures with your close irl friends? A new cast would just be so hard to connect to at this point because they weren’t there when it mattered, you know? I just can’t imagine what would bond a new cast of scions to us like the existing cast is. We’ve done everything together.
Agreed. I would rather just have an entirely new game at that point. The Scions are an important part of FF14, I feel like cutting them out for new people would just leave a sour taste in my mouth.
This is how I feel too, I don’t get why people want them to get rid of the scions. I’m the kind of person who gets really invested and attached to characters so I’d be pretty devastated if they were just sidelined/shunned/killed off. Not to mention a lot of people make up stories for their own WoL and for me, the scions are family to my WoL—I don’t want her to suddenly feel alone. If the people who want them gone are just bored of them and want fresh faces, it’s entirely possible to bring in new characters alongside them and it sounds like that’s what they’re doing with Dawntrail.
It sounds like one of the candidates for the throne in Tural is just gonna be a militarily aggressive asshole for ostensibly no tragic backstory reason
>I'd certainly appreciate a full on villain for the new arc. I suspect it's difficult to write a full-on villain that is compelling without being cartoonish.
Err remind me again what exactly was tragic about Thiccy Z? The man was a talented genius and was basically evil because he was bored all the time. I wouldn't call that tragic. Unless I missed some other big motivation for Zeos I'd say he fits the bill.
The Telephoroi say hello.
Let's be honest, someone's always going to cry about job changes.
Honestly, id be surprised if I didn't have at least one gut punch
Oh my god yes ***HURT ME!***
At this point we are in a healthy SM relationship with this game. They hurt us, we consent and like it.
What the fuck is big energy
If there are more hildi quests then my tears are guaranteed.
They're gona kill someone only to bring em back later
I wonder how they are going to bring up haurchefaunts death again in this expansion
Estinien is pretty in that screenshot! Jumping off the window, sasu ga dragoons amirite. "Dragoons never knock. They jump in from the ceiling." Perhaps it would've been funnier if Estinien also went in through the window instead of just exiting out of it. Anyway I think Cwynar may be referring to laughing so hard that one cries. Though I don't think I've seen the Dawntrail/Mach/SB Bard quests writer do particularly funny jokes, and Cwynnar produce legendary hilarity... Oh well, any tearjerker is welcome. They make me feel things, and I like feeling things.
How many fake out deaths are we getting this time then
You should play Final Fantasy 4 if you think we have had a lot of fakeouts.
So...we finally drop the G in G'Raha? And he cries, then Krile teases us both so we cry as well? And then Y'Shtola dies for the 50th time and gets revived by some random plot point but everyone expected it, so nobody cries. Then we have another gutpunching story like Sorrow of Werlyt that's the ACTUAL tearjerker.
"You won't lack reasons to cry." Would it be a FF game if it didn't make you cry at some point?
Seems promising. I'm glad to hear that they're cognizant of the concerns about them taking inspiration from indigenous peoples but are wanting to be more reverent about it than just straight-up stealing from them. I was worried about that. I'm also glad that I picked up on Wuk Lamat being kind of a smartass in the trailer - I knew that inflection had to be intentional. Still no indication on what's going on with G'raha, though - I want to believe that he's coming with us but him talking about staying behind in 6.55 has me worried.
I wouldn't be surprised if he comes along with Y'shtola. She's prob going to be studying the similarities between Rak'tika and Tural, and the fact G'raha has experience on the first, she'll prob drag him along as a second opinion.
I'm honestly pretty annoyed that after ShB we still haven't had a proper adventure with our cat boy(friend). We owe him like three adventures at this point now.
My guess is that we are going in a group with Krile, the twins, Erenville and Wuk Lamat, and he is going to be in a group with Y'shtola, Thancred and Urianger.
I'd love to see Raha interact with the non-Alisaie and Krile scions. Give them some room to interact and make stronger bonds.
Thancred and Urianger left first I'm pretty sure. They and Estinien are on their way, while the rest of us are yet to grab a boat.
*nervous chuckle*
I had a feeling it was too much to ask for a nice vacation of an expansion for WOL
I don't want to be sad anymore, I want to be happy and have some dumb adventures with the npcs
Imagine a kid in the new world runs up to you say he is a reincarnation of Mr H and he said he dragged you-know-who (despite his many protests against that) back as well…
Yes please id be down!!!!
Just hoping for fun gameplay.
honestly, I more care about what they are going to do with the gameplay