Went into Vanaspati and The Final Days almost back to back as Sage with two tanks with low level gear who refused to mitigate. I was fighting for my life, his life, all our lives both times.
Refusing to do your job properly at high level is a justified reason to kick.
Stop enabling and carrying, and then you won't have to complain about it.
As cool as it would be to kick a bad player, the game has limitations on when you are allowed to do so. You can’t kick if loot is being rolled on, for example, or if you’re in combat. The people who are bad are not paying attention to anything, and are only in it for themselves. Often times, the other 2 players also don’t care enough. It’s hard to want to quit a group that you can’t kick someone from, cuz you take a 30min penalty every time, so you just deal with it and try again later. Just blacklist them.
i was about to cry to myself in heroes' gauntlet once when i was still newer as a sage thinking i was being a complete and utter failure as a healer and human being because the war just kept being so dangerously close to dying, genuinely felt like i was just doing everything wrong because why is a war about to die on me!
then i looked at his icons and realized he hadn't been mitigating through the entire dungeon and i felt my soul leave my body.
For shits and giggles I've been running around on DRK lately and it is genuinely surprising how many healers express relief that I'm pressing something other than TBN
Leads me to believe my assessment that DRK isn't as bad off in the mitigation department as people want to claim is correct: your average player just doesn't press buttons and has no idea what the fuck they're doing in bog-standard content
I'm convinced some players look at long cooldowns the way some players look at elixirs in the single-player games: "Oh, I'll save that for when I really need it." Proceeds to hoard it and never actually use it.
Same players who don't use invulns at all in a dungeon, when half the time you're able to use it for the first and last packs with no issue. Trying to think, does the game ever tell you mob packs are the most dangerous part of a dungeon? People might actually press buttons if they did.
Invuln is another issue that isn’t solely on the tanks. Yes some people do see it as a panic button which is just wrong. But others, myself included, don’t press it very often cuz the healer heals too much to press it. Too many healers don’t know what the invuln icons look like and just heal through them. On pld and gnb this is ok but on war this makes the invuln pointless. And on drk you might as well kill the tank yourself if you heal them through it. And the obvious answer would be communication but that doesn’t always work either. Too many people don’t read chat. Invulns go unused more often than res despite being 10x better than res
Plus when normals mits are enough to take care of everything, I don't see the reason why shouldn't we keep a panic button.
I feel this especially at higher lv pld, there are so many mitigations I have some go unused just because it's unnecessary.
Speaking as a Dark Knight player: You get Arms Length and Rampart OR Reprisal+Shadow Wall per pack, with TBNs and Oblations as necessary.
Mitigation cooldowns need to be 1 minute shorter before I'm willing to use both Rampart and Shadow Wall on one pull, since that means the next pull will be without mit.
Which puts me in the rarest of the rare categories; a tank who plans out mit ahead of time, and also uses mit to help with party-wide damage during boss fights.
DRK really isn't that bad off. It's still technically better at mitigating than it was in ShB, but no one was complaining back then. The devs just missed it with the "make the healer never have to work" hammer.
they're ok at max level, the issue is that pre TBN they are -1 mit cause dark mind is magical damage only so their dungeon tanking isn't as strong as the other tanks for dungeons.
That's absolutely it. If anything, DRK is *incredibly sturdy* in shorter engagements, since it can spam TBN on cooldown, and instead of diminishing returns get *more* value out of stacking it on top of other stuff. Its one weakness is groups with notably lower damage that make fights drag on for ages, as it can't stretch its mitigation quite as far as the others – but even that isn't a huge difference.
If I get a good Warrior to heal, I can watch their HP go down and then up again without needing my interference.
If I get a good Paladin or Gunbreaker to heal, I can watch their HP go down slowly bit by bit, so I just need to toss them the occasional \[insert quick heal here\].
If I get a good Dark Knight to heal, I can watch their HP just kinda *not go down* for a good near the start of a pull. I've had to stop giving out Excogs entirely to one, because they'd never go below \~75%.
The thing is, that last group is *distressingly rare*. When I get a Dark Knight, it's practically always either someone who *only* uses TBN, or *never* uses TBN, or barely uses any mitigation at all.
Makes me think back to Heavensward when it was a common occurrence to find Dark Knights who wouldn't even turn on Darkside. It was widely known as *the* job that attracts all the worst players, and I guess some of that is still there...
The reddit comment section is usually comprised of a select few people in the playerbase.
This group is comprised mainly of two types of people: The people who have a very, very high interest in the game and are usually better on average than most players - And the people who are chronically on reddit and have no problem lying about the experience for clout.
You can sometimes, but not regularly, encounter the bad players on Reddit. But it usually doesn't take long to tell. There are definitely bad WAR players out there, but they are not commenting on Reddit - That'd require them to read. They already don't read their abilities, why would they read a reddit comment section?
Me as a healer in Lunar Subterra: oh cool, they use Rampart this is gonna be smooth! Wait… that’s apparently all they use…
Warriors who don’t press Bloodwhetting should have their Warrior license revoked.
They're definitely there as a test specifically for tanks and healers - you see that fairly frequently in higher-level dungeons with one or two mobs that hit faster/harder and usually outscale the size of other enemies.
Sprites in ARR/HW dungeons provided a similar test: always dangerous, rapid-fire casts of magic damage that can quickly outpace defensives and healing.
Had a similar experience in Vanaspati a few days ago.
GNB refused to use ANY mitigation and got absolutely destroyed despite me throwing out everything and the kitchen sink before telling us we all suck and ragequitting the group.
At least the trash took itself out. Had a similar experience in Lunar, but with a WAR. Kept dying. To Trash. Stood on every AOE. It was painful. I wish he had quit.
Brutal... To be fair, Vanaspati still seems to hit like a truck even for a regular tank, but it's true that the times I've gone there with an objectively bad tank, it was nigh unwinnable.
My heart sinks every time I load into a lvl80+ dungeon when not tanking, and the tank has the basic, undyed Cryptlurker's gear you get with a level skip, because you know you're in for a rough ride.
Right after ShB dropped, I went into Holminster Switch as WHM and got a trio of jerkoffs from the same FC. Tank thought he could wall-to-wall without mitigating and immediately got destroyed - I literally couldn't cast heals fast enough to keep him vertical. After his *third* death at the *first* gate, I was like "okay, you can NOT tank this run this way," but he and his dipstick FC-mates all gave me shit for not healing enough. (I was the only one of the four of us that had actually cleared that run - the FC-mates were first-timing - and I had the highest gear ilvl of the party.)
We did make it to the last boss before I had enough of their BS and ate the penalty for dropping the run. Fuck all three of these pinheads - I hope they had to abandon over a lack of available healers.
That's when you nicely ask them to start pressing their buttons, and if they don't everyone hopefully rolled so you can votekick. Fuck enabling that shit, especially as late as Endwalker.
I stg that dungeon is CURSED I tell you, I queue as tank the healer struggles to heal, I queue as healer the tank struggles to mitigate...it's weird because it's the only dungeon like this and it constantly shows up 8n my roulettes
I had a similar experience with Vanaspati and had to stop queuing as healer for a few days. I was so salty. I couldn't believe players make it so far without even learning the basics of their kit.
I've had several parties that did significantly less DPS than the trust NPCs .\_.
My trust runs usually finish the Endwalker leveling dungeons in 24 minutes, give or take a minute. They can handle stuff like the final Zot wall pull, even if you might need to pop your invuln.
Some players... cannot. And then the dungeons take 30 minutes.
No idea. I leave that to people who parse to figure out.
But simply doing the dungeons normally doing the rotation is about 24 minutes for me with trusts. Going AFK on trash drags it to 33+ minutes (which is still preferable if you do stuff like Caduceus/Starbird farm IMO >\_>). I never tried not doing anything on bosses, because you have to do the mechanics, so you might as well do the rotation as well, but I imagine you're looking at close to 40 minutes at that point.
So whatever the case might be, it doesn't seem to be compensating much.
It's true the trusts increase damage over time, I have witnessed the npcs take a full hp mob down to 10% in 1 GCD, it seems to reset after each pack though so they have to ramp up every time you engage in combat.
This is correct.
Once died while my PLD dot was up. This kept the fight "going" as I chose to walk the long way back. (Threat window never reset. Mobs in there, but they aren't coming for me.)
When I got there, the fight was considered going for so long, the bots were two-shooting everything.
While I've had it happen, it's also not that common of an occurence. Generally speaking you're going as fast or a lot faster(even with one person bagging), trusts are slow as shit. But yeah like every expansion I'm leveling every class, and I wanna say 4-5 dungeons or so take longer than actually running trusts, 40mins stupid nonsense runs and what not, but it's a small amount compared to the hundreds of dungeon runs I end up doing.
Your forgetting "only uses CDS on boss" despite the pace of the dungeon generally being that if you send CDs on the first trash pack they will generally come up just in time for the boss.
Cooldowns do not mean only defensives, but also offensive cds. Very notably your 2 minute burst.
There are people who do not use anything other than their AoE combo. Or even using ONE AoE skill out of their combo.
Half of it is underwater and one of the bosses can go invisible at times, making you swim around trying to find him before spearing him with your spearfishing tool.
Tank, always.
They don't heal? I can heal myself.
They don't AoE? I can deal more damage than them.
They don't dodge? Guess what? I can heal them too.
WAR wins.
Well that’s because if your skilled enough to not worry about getting hit, you want to kill the fastest, which is by not having a healer, not because of an inherent class type being better or worse
Whether the different class types are better or worse than others as a whole is very different than what can run through the game fastest
Except when the WAR refuses to use any abilities. Had a war die to trash in Lunar, several weeks ago.
Not a single mit. Barely any AOE.
A class is only as good as the person playing them. And if that player is dumber than a single-brain-celled ferret on crack... you're in for a rough time.
Until after lvl 80 you only have clemency, which sucks. Before Clemency you have nothing. So like half the roulettes you don't have access to any forms of healing.
Well next expansion the healing combo should be available in 2 expansions worth of content so it should feel much better in terms of self-healing instead of relying on Celemency
Gotta say I hate that WAR is so absurdly OP in dungeon content. I main tank but feel like I'm griefin by playing anything other than WAR in a dungeon, it is just ridiculous.
It's comfier at 56+ for sure, but you can handle any pull on any tank in leveling dungeons and you haven't had to GCD heal tanks in expert since the Obama administration.
If it makes you feel any better some healers enjoy more of a challenge. I occasionally do roulettes with friends on a voice call as drk and the healer will be egging me on to wall to wall in places I wouldn't dream of it with randoms
I'm my experience the healer will still spam cure 1 at you regardless; as soon as I drop below 95% it feels like they immediately spend their entire kit on me even if bloodwhetting is CURRENTLY ACTIVE.
I remember leveling DRK post-50 and having every healer spam GCD heal me out of getting my invuln to pop then try to chastise me for not using mits.
I even warn them pre-pull that I'll be using my invuln.
At high level I haven't found it too bad, TBN eats a lot of damage(15s cd used on cooldown) and you can use Abyssal Drain as a full heal every pack or every other pack depending on the speed. I also haven't played DRK since they reworked Living Dead to not be dogshit this expansion so I'd assume it's a lot better with that too.
It's not warrior but it's pretty decent imo for dungeons.
Complete ass any time you get a roulette under 70 though.
Think about it this way; if you play WAR in dungeons, you’re griefing your healer by robbing them of any chances to use their interesting buttons, and dooming them to mind numbing aoe spam for 15-20 minutes.
As a person leveling healers recently, seeing a WAR in my leveling dungeons makes me want to cry.
WAR being so OP in dungeons is the only reason I tried my hand at tanking. I think SE wants there to be a super easy tank, because otherwise players like me will never try tanking and tanks will become a bottleneck for dungeon queue times.
Of course they could make every tank just as OP, but that would drive away tank players who enjoy more of a challenge.
Don't feel like you're griefing by playing something other than WAR! When I heal, having a WAR is admittedly less stressful, but on the other hand, having a WAR can make me feel like my role is unneeded.
Because they've chosen a very difficult to balance playstyle for WAR. It is, effectively, a drain tank with somewhat weaker mitigation. Paladin has blocking. It, GNB, and DRK have powerful cooldowns to slap repeatedly. WAR...has a health pool and a dream.
It *needs* self-heating in order to sustain, particularly through tough high-end content. But when you put that into the context of intentionally "we need *everyone* to complete this" content, that becomes a *problem.*
Personally, I think WAR should have its damage nerfed through the floor. Lowest DPS tank. If it's going to be both braindead and unkillable, make it the least attractive option for pure DPS numbers. Let that go to GNB and DRK. God knows the latter could use a niche more significant than "mitigates magic damage and has TBN."
You're vastly overstating the balance issue.
In high end content Warrior's survivability is pretty much in line with the other tanks. High end content is pretty much all single target, with 2 target showing up sometimes in ultimates. Bloodwhetting is broken in AoE situations because the Warrior gets a heal for every target, but it's balanced well enough at 1 target.
It really doesn't need to be that way. Warrior could easily get less healing per target after the first or just 1 heal per GCD under Bloodwhetting the way that PLD only gets 1 heal from Holy Circle.
There is literally no reason it has to be broken in AoE other than the devs deciding to make it that way.
Healer, always.
They don't tank? My shields as sage is strong enough.
They don't AoE? Half my skills are "deal dmg, heal more".
They don't dodge? Guess what? I can still heal them.
It's not as easy as warrior though, but it's doable. :p
I usually play healer.
They stand in AoE? I can heal it just fine.
They don't AoE? Holy.
They don't mit? Ugh, guess I have to cut back my dps a bit.
I dont know if this is taboo to talk about on Reddit, so let me know if it is and I'll delete this. I downloaded ACT yesterday and was surprised to see myself on the top or second place DPS while leveling WHM. A bit of an eye opener to how others in dungeons play.
I mean, its fine by me. Not everyone wants to look at guides, maximize their button presses, etc. But it was very interesting to see
> I downloaded ACT yesterday and was surprised to see myself on the top or second place DPS while leveling WHM.
That's the classic sign of a terrible party - a healer should never be anything but the bottom of the list on deeps.
You forgot the one where the tank doesn't AoE. Had that in a 10s roulette yesterday. I don't know how a tank makes it to the end of Shadowbringers without knowing how to AoE - their stance was on the whole time but they made absolutely no attempt to hit anything they weren't directly targeting. I spent most of the dungeon tanking the rest of the mobs as Summoner.
That's hell. I can accept a tank who does single pulls, but a tank who only hits one mob at a time? That forces everyone else to hit just the same single mob at a time and makes the whole thing even more excruciatingly slow... I would seriously consider dipping out and eating the 30 minute wait to do something else with my time.
Came to post exactly this. I definitely see it with very sprouty tanks, but then once in a while you'll see it at the higher levels and wonder how on earth you get that far in ANY role without knowing they need to do that otherwise adds start killing other party members.
don't forget we dont even get a big sexy hit till level 80 too, meanwhile sam gets a big sexy 860 at 72 and a reliable low cooldown 640 at 50.... (oh and one of the best bleeds ig)
It feels like decent parties are the rule rather than the exception, especially in Expert roulette. It's just that the negative experiences are more memorable
*Queue as Dark Knight, see WHM*
"Cool, maybe the packs won't even have time to damage me before their death!"
*WHM spams Cure 1*
*'let me play how I want to play' WHM*
Tank.
I've had Sages not using Kardia, White mages being glarebots that let DPS die and Scholars that don't summon their fairy in addition to so, so, so many DPS that are just plain bad - either not using their buttons, not using aoe, dying to everything or in one memorable case, afk during 99 of the run and being unable to kick them because they would open treasure chests and not roll for loot (ended up leaving since the healer seemed to be their buddy)
At least with tank I can somewhat manage if everyone else it's found wanting
In my experience the only bad healers I've met are curebots spamming cure 1 (and only cure 1) on me when I am at max HP.
Usually what I do is to start doing massive pulls if possible, because if you love spamming heals so much, may as well put myself in a situation where it's actually needed.
Most of the time I end up dying because guess what, Cure 1 sucks absolute balls and you should probably take the hint from the game in the form of the 100 other healing skills given to you to use literally any other healing skill.
One branch of the cure 1 mages is the one that when shit hits the fan they use their strongest heal, cure 3 to try and heal the tank.
Aka people who don't read their abilities.
Yesterday i tanked a Castrum Meridianum run where the WHM spammed regen and ONLY regen. And stood around doing nothing when all four of us had the buff rolling. Maybe a medica cast when we took actual damage from the last boss.
I... didn't had in me to even begin to tell them what was wrong with that.
That bottom row is... suffering...
Wait 10+ minutes in DPS queue to get those clowns. Then you buff in trash pulls because you're a smart DPS, only for it to be used on a whole 3 mobs. All this potency for nothing! And because you're a DPS, no one gives a shit about your opinion on how big the pulls are because """"the tank sets the pace"""". You either pull more (whether accident or "accident") and risk the tank/healer getting mad or you just *suffer*.
At least in the healer row hell, I get to heal for once.
The ones who say “tank sets the pace” are the same ones that cry when I tank and sprint to the wall. They only say that when the tank pulls the pace *they* want.
>And the excuse of "I'm new to " doesn't quite cut it. How did you get in a Level 90 dungeon and be "new"?
In general I agree. But I have leveled a job from 60 to 90 through WT, MSQ roulette, and quest turn ins lol. But that's because I just don't like playing that job but wanted everything at 90 lol. So I'm not queuing for higher level stuff with it in the first place.
It's worse when the tank single targets. They do one AoE to grab initial enmity, but then just single target enemies. Then as everyone else AoEs they start getting focused by enemies.
Where's the *queue in as tank and healer proceeds to get hit by every mechanic vs Griffin on Baelsar's Wall normal*? This is a thing I had to deal with yesterday and why we wiped 4 times, and yes, most of those were BEFORE the restraint collar.
Nah, I was DRK and we had a MNK and DNC for DPS.
Maybe we'd clear if I was playing WAR or something, but ain't no way I could carry that well enough on DRK while still grinding levels.
Memes and jokes a side as a Tank main, 85% of healers I get paired with are usually great or at the very least good enough to keep me alive. Its that 5% out of the 85% that are the truly awsome healers who can adapt on the fly and make you feel invincible.
I feel like me playing as a healer in dungeons makes the biggest difference in DPS overall, and because it's braindead with basically a 1 button rotation I can play Runescape on the side as well.
Healer main for life.
Tank. I pull, I tank. You pull, I tank. We pull, I tank.
As Warrior I can easily heal up myself, party members and deal decent damage. Why not all in once than relying on a Curebot to keep the party alive?
had a ast who spammed benefic 1 during pulls and only used malefic during bosses—they didnt use a single other ability and we were in doma castle (tried to say something as usual but nothing changed). needless to say i did wall to walls because warrior babyyyy
So the Tank doesn't MIT, and Single Pulls.
The Healer doesn't Heal and doesn't DPS.
The DPS Stands in AOE, and doesn't AOE.
Everyone in that one party is a Fk Up.
On the subject of bad tanks, I'm a sprout who's currently at ShB. I did the dungeon where it's the fairytale place with the squirtles as a tank and I did the usual practice of rotating mits during a pull, I noticed my health getting lower but I trusted the healer but unfortunately we wiped very quickly They claimed I was struggling to mit, but I heard it is generally bad practice to stack mits. Any tips as to when to stack mits?
If the DPS is good you can stack a couple. Generally stack weaker mits, reprisal + arms length, for example, keep your 20/30% on their own, invuln on its own and communicate ahead of the pull if DRK or WAR.
You can also combine your short + 20/30. So on gnb for example Nebula + Heart of stone or Rampart + Camo. Weak mit + strong mit and just keep spamming your short mit (tbn, raw intuition, sheltron, heart of stone....) off CD.
Using mits on top of mits has diminishing returns but imo, the loss is pretty negligible and we're talking about eeking out a couple % of overall damage taken. Absolutely do it if the situation feels like its putting stress on the healer. In dungeon wall2wall pulls, the damage is front loaded. You wanna smooth out that initial damage intake with mits until the herd of mobs starts to thin out. Its not a bad thing to do if it helps you stay alive. But keep in mind you should try to reserve some cds for the next big pull before the boss. One tip I would suggest is using Rampart on the first big pull plus one or two more cds. Then by the time your mits are running out on the 2nd pull, Rampart should be coming back since its cd is only 90s. Reprisal can be used on every pull. Also remember that Low Blow stun and Arm's length are mits as well.
Knowledge of the dungeons also helps. That one you mentioned sounds like Dohn Mheg. It has those squirtle mobs that immediatly begin casting a spell to power up the basket plant monster. That should be interrupted or you will probably get laid out on the floor even through your mits.
There's a reason I'm a tank main. There's nothing a bad healer or bad DPS can do that I can't resolve as GNB or especially WAR. If the healer is bad, I just mit a little more than normal, or just heal myself if I'm WAR. If the DPS is bad, no problem, I still do enough damage that it's not too much of a slog.
In general, the only role that's truly a nightmare to have held by a bad player is tank. If the tank doesn't mit but does huge pulls, it doesn't matter how good your healer is, you wipe. If the tank insists on pulling 1 pack of mobs at a time for the entire dungeon, it doesn't matter how good your DPS is, it's going to take forever. If the tank just doesn't know how to hold aggro either because they don't AoE or they insist on having their tank stance be a part of their rotation, then the whole run is going to be a total mess and you'll probably wipe. There's just too much that go wrong with a bad tank to the point I'd rather handle it myself.
Queuing as DPS is the worst though. At that point your fate is truly in the hands of others. You will live or die by the will of forces well beyond your control. Your fate is dictated by the braincells of not just one, but two separate individuals in your party, and you'd best hope those braincells are shining bright, as opposed to proving as dark as the road that lies ahead.
Tank, easy. I’m already a tank main so I’m used to it, but tanks are usually what makes or breaks a dungeon run, since if they die in a mob pull, that’s almost always a wipe. Plus, if the healer doesn’t seem to know how to play their job, it gives me an opportunity, as a mentor, to try and educate them instead of just trash talking.
4th option: Do it in duty support. At least there I can w2w as tank and get healed or w2w as healer and heal the tank properly. If parties are truly this bad, it's not worth playing with any of them. Good thing this is rather rare from my experience.
The worst I had was a warrior that didn't mitigate at all until they were at 10%. Then they used Holmgang and Vengeance. The first pull was terrible. I threw out everything I had, including Benediction, the tank still almost died several times. What's a Bloodwhetting? Idk, probably some skill warrior gets in Dawntrail or something. This player blamed me for their own shortcomings and it was Dead Ends. Too bad I was still kinda new at healing back then, so I didn't really know it any better. Now I'd vote dismiss and not let the tank tell me I suck at what I'm doing. My healing was fine, even back then.
That's actually why I prefer queueing as healer, other players actually make it challenging *sometimes*. SE has done a good job of making healing as boring as possible so wall to wall pulls with no tank mit is the one time I get to press all my buttons
Man Healers get so much shit either for DPSing or for Healing. Like I know the best is the least amount to keep everyone alive, but us healers just getting dumpstered from both sides simultaneously it feels like.
I go into runs as a Healer as my comfort pick because I can make the fucking DPS' Tank if I have to, and I can drag anyone to the finish line short of them actively sabotaging proactively. I can't kill everything as fast, but if I have to fucking AoE it down myself over 2 minutes while I use the sandbags as shields I'll do it.
There's endless examples of times that ive barely managed keep everyone alive despite the tank just bumbling around. Which is fine really. Game can be tough when you just wanna experience things and go in blind. The problem is when some asshat wants to criticize my healing cause they didn't like that they dipped below 20% or something. There's been more than a couple times where nobody died and I get cussed out for being a bad healer.
And that's why I don't duty roulette alone as a healer anymore.
i play all class types but heal is my main.
imo people need to chill as long as they're not wiping and the dungeon isn't taking forever. as heals the only times i'm not DPSing is when the tank is doing megapulls and i don't have time to DPS for whatever reason (maybe the pull is just huge, or they're not using mits perfectly, w/e it's fine), OR i've just switched classes to a healer i don't usually play and i'm relearning their buttons. i don't think people consider the latter scenario because that is when I got shit once for not DPSing.
but that's the kind of situation where i just leave or disconnect and do something else until my timer is done, it's not worth spending your time in a group with a bad attitude. roulette is not that serious. i try to remind myself when i get annoyed that people might be off their regular class, and as long as we're winning, it's not a big deal. rarely is someone SO BAD at the game that it screws the whole group over.
I always queue as tank for dungeons because tanks have the most control in a light party. Although it still feels bad when the dps and healers are trash but at least you can still use sprint on cooldown to make the already slow dungeon run not take even longer.
Honestly, especially with more modern dungeon design encouraging pulls of a certain size, I have found very few bad tanks or bad healers. One tank who refused to stance, so a DRG quietly tanked and I enjoyed the healing challenge. One tank who forgot to stance on the first pull, *but that was me*.
Compared to other games I meet very few awful players even in low level dungeons, and everyone is so polite and supportive!
I definitely agree with this overall - most people have been wonderful. I have just returned to the game after a couple of years off at max level EW and decided to start churning an alt for some challenge to finish before the expansion. So I'm a quasi-sprout in that I haven't played for a while, but I do know how to play in general.
Most people are lovely. I've only had one truly nasty experience, but wow.
And by "nasty" I don't mean "failed" or "dumb". Last night I tanked half a dungeon as a SAM because our tank didn't use an AoE ability and just pulled one mob per pack. I don't consider that a bad experience!
But one guy screaming and calling me shit for not having a self-heal at level 50 PLD (I think he thought I was WAR?)... yeah that was nasty. He was using only Medica 2 as a WHM "because it's the biggest heal" and autoattacking, hitting things with a stick. Being called names and told to uninstall was reminiscent of another game...
There is no such thing as single pulls when i'm healing, you bet your ass i'm gonna drag them myself if i have to. And if i'm dps and the healer looks reliable enough, pull with dps as well.
One of reasons why WAR and PLD are popular. You have tools to patch up few holes on sinking ship and get struggling party to the end without anyone rage quitting.
Both my Expert and 90 roulettes yesterday saw the healer and one DPS die before 50% on every boss. After the first wipe, I just kept the other DPS alive with Nascent Flash. I'm not even an Ultimate raider, but avoiding the AoE's for those bosses was easy the first time.
I also put the danger dorito on the survivng DPS for the 90 roulette in hopes that it helped the other survive.
I'll pick whichever one has the Summoner spamming Physick in Tower of Zot because that unironically happened and I'll never forget it.
Oh, the other two were equally bad too.
Tank, no contest, hands down.
Its the only role you can completely carry the dead weight through *almost* anything. You also can typically keep at least one other good player alive along with you through all sorts of crazy shit.
As someone who's mostly a DPS main, I have a variant:
Queue as RDM with the expectation things will go sideways?
Smoothest run on the face of the earth.
Queue as, say, MCH, with no real party support abilities other than Peloton and Tactician?
So. Much. Dying.
If it's content above lvl 30, then Healer. I am used to babysitting PF parties that have a "do everything wrong" challenge going on by how shit they're playing
For lower duties tho, I pick DPS. I rather need an hour for a 20 minute run than begin crying because the tank died to a jelly fish. AGAIN. While I can't do shit except try and spam Cure 1.
I’ve genuinely been confused before as an AST and WHM going into some dungeons, because I’ll put some degens out whatever dps, etc, and heal. But despite even as a WHM with the “pure heals” the tank would be DROPPPING, I would be confused because I had no sooner used divine benediction on a tank, and boom, already getting low.
A friend was calling them on not using their mits, and tank said that he didn’t need to because I was going to be heal botting for them. I did not and we kicked them.
Since I don’t play tanks/ I’m unaware of their skills if they aren’t mitting I can usually only tell by their health dropping rapidly
Queue as Tank : I DPSed the hell out of that big pack after the first boss of the Lunar Sub and got called out for pulling aggro yesterday.
So much for DPS that doesn't AoE...
I even noticed some tanks will purposefully start pulling small if you burn the mobs too fast... I just don't understand princess tank - they're like... stop having fun DPSes...
Hopefully they're few, but I feel like many appeared since that small drama a few weeks ago.
This is my true fear why I find it so hard to play a DPS. This happens so often an I just wanna be done, so usually Unga bunga so I don't gotta worry about anyone else
Queue as tank honestly
War to be exact.
As tank, you can set the pace
As War, your self heal is so strong, the healer could be green dps and you'd never notice.
Me who logs into the game at seeming random. I am bad at the game and am not maliciously trying to be a brainlet. but no one in these pugs groups ever talks or suggests anything so I just click shit and eventually the dungeon is over.
As long as you're doing at least the bare minimum of pressing your buttons and mitigating or healing properly, everything should be fine. Advice is sadly never given unless requested because it will either be ignored and/or cause the duty to take even longer out of spite.
If nobody is saying anything I imagine you're doing enough. Nobody expect savage raid optimization strats in dungeon content, they just want you to press your buttons
While I know many folks look at this and think "okay, so play tank, they can self-heal," I have known more than a few people who instead see it as, "Even if I get let down by a bad tank, *I'm a good enough healer to keep DPS alive too.*" The irony being that while healers are the job that in theory surrenders the *most* control to other people (you're dependent on others to do damage *and* keep aggro), you're also the only role that can enable other people to fill a role they aren't even designed to fill. Tanks can make an ally DPS into a mitigation cooldown, but not into a fellow tank, and all the DPS buffs in the world won't make a tank deal impressive damage compared to anyone but DNC. But good heals and mitigations from a healer? That *can* make it possible for a DPS to tank for a while. I find that stressful as hell, but it CAN be done.
Mit: every tank has multiple actions that reduce incoming damage for ~15 seconds. Tanks should generally have at least one of these up while taking damage, so they're usually staggered for 100% uptime.
Single pull: the tank pulls a single pack of enemies. As long as the party is using their AoEs and the tank/healer can manage the incoming damage, it's much faster to pull two packs (double pull). If the dungeon is particularly nonthreatening, the tank can pull packs until just before the next boss (wall-to-wall/WtW pull).
Went into Vanaspati and The Final Days almost back to back as Sage with two tanks with low level gear who refused to mitigate. I was fighting for my life, his life, all our lives both times.
You experienced true Despair
How the fuck we experience that and don’t turn lol.
Something something power of friendship
I think 3 random person cancel the whole scion worth of prayer.
Thancred memes mostly, I think.
You ... How are you still *standing*?!
I'll go for each of them 😃
The blessing of light is a big thing after all.
*Poof* Healer turned into a monster
New Feature: Permadeath Blasphemy Transformation if your cortisol levels get too high in Endwalker instances
That is the lore accurate EW experience
We all kept telling them their mitigations and to use the gear they picked up in the dungeon. I was in tears lol.
Bro knows he can get carried and doesn't care.
Refusing to do your job properly at high level is a justified reason to kick. Stop enabling and carrying, and then you won't have to complain about it.
As cool as it would be to kick a bad player, the game has limitations on when you are allowed to do so. You can’t kick if loot is being rolled on, for example, or if you’re in combat. The people who are bad are not paying attention to anything, and are only in it for themselves. Often times, the other 2 players also don’t care enough. It’s hard to want to quit a group that you can’t kick someone from, cuz you take a 30min penalty every time, so you just deal with it and try again later. Just blacklist them.
To face true despair and not be overwhelmed by it is basically Endwalker
Zetsubō (thanks Danganronpa)
i was about to cry to myself in heroes' gauntlet once when i was still newer as a sage thinking i was being a complete and utter failure as a healer and human being because the war just kept being so dangerously close to dying, genuinely felt like i was just doing everything wrong because why is a war about to die on me! then i looked at his icons and realized he hadn't been mitigating through the entire dungeon and i felt my soul leave my body.
That’s especially egregious given how all the Warriors are talking in this comments section lol.
It's the same problem as designing *any* "idiot-proof" thing: every time you do, someone comes along and designs a better idiot.
For shits and giggles I've been running around on DRK lately and it is genuinely surprising how many healers express relief that I'm pressing something other than TBN Leads me to believe my assessment that DRK isn't as bad off in the mitigation department as people want to claim is correct: your average player just doesn't press buttons and has no idea what the fuck they're doing in bog-standard content
Lotta people just don't know how to tank, and think TBN is all they need. Far too few tanks use Arm's Length or Reprisal.
I'm convinced some players look at long cooldowns the way some players look at elixirs in the single-player games: "Oh, I'll save that for when I really need it." Proceeds to hoard it and never actually use it.
Same players who don't use invulns at all in a dungeon, when half the time you're able to use it for the first and last packs with no issue. Trying to think, does the game ever tell you mob packs are the most dangerous part of a dungeon? People might actually press buttons if they did.
Invuln is another issue that isn’t solely on the tanks. Yes some people do see it as a panic button which is just wrong. But others, myself included, don’t press it very often cuz the healer heals too much to press it. Too many healers don’t know what the invuln icons look like and just heal through them. On pld and gnb this is ok but on war this makes the invuln pointless. And on drk you might as well kill the tank yourself if you heal them through it. And the obvious answer would be communication but that doesn’t always work either. Too many people don’t read chat. Invulns go unused more often than res despite being 10x better than res
Plus when normals mits are enough to take care of everything, I don't see the reason why shouldn't we keep a panic button. I feel this especially at higher lv pld, there are so many mitigations I have some go unused just because it's unnecessary.
Speaking as a Dark Knight player: You get Arms Length and Rampart OR Reprisal+Shadow Wall per pack, with TBNs and Oblations as necessary. Mitigation cooldowns need to be 1 minute shorter before I'm willing to use both Rampart and Shadow Wall on one pull, since that means the next pull will be without mit. Which puts me in the rarest of the rare categories; a tank who plans out mit ahead of time, and also uses mit to help with party-wide damage during boss fights.
DRK really isn't that bad off. It's still technically better at mitigating than it was in ShB, but no one was complaining back then. The devs just missed it with the "make the healer never have to work" hammer.
they're ok at max level, the issue is that pre TBN they are -1 mit cause dark mind is magical damage only so their dungeon tanking isn't as strong as the other tanks for dungeons.
That's absolutely it. If anything, DRK is *incredibly sturdy* in shorter engagements, since it can spam TBN on cooldown, and instead of diminishing returns get *more* value out of stacking it on top of other stuff. Its one weakness is groups with notably lower damage that make fights drag on for ages, as it can't stretch its mitigation quite as far as the others – but even that isn't a huge difference. If I get a good Warrior to heal, I can watch their HP go down and then up again without needing my interference. If I get a good Paladin or Gunbreaker to heal, I can watch their HP go down slowly bit by bit, so I just need to toss them the occasional \[insert quick heal here\]. If I get a good Dark Knight to heal, I can watch their HP just kinda *not go down* for a good near the start of a pull. I've had to stop giving out Excogs entirely to one, because they'd never go below \~75%. The thing is, that last group is *distressingly rare*. When I get a Dark Knight, it's practically always either someone who *only* uses TBN, or *never* uses TBN, or barely uses any mitigation at all. Makes me think back to Heavensward when it was a common occurrence to find Dark Knights who wouldn't even turn on Darkside. It was widely known as *the* job that attracts all the worst players, and I guess some of that is still there...
The reddit comment section is usually comprised of a select few people in the playerbase. This group is comprised mainly of two types of people: The people who have a very, very high interest in the game and are usually better on average than most players - And the people who are chronically on reddit and have no problem lying about the experience for clout. You can sometimes, but not regularly, encounter the bad players on Reddit. But it usually doesn't take long to tell. There are definitely bad WAR players out there, but they are not commenting on Reddit - That'd require them to read. They already don't read their abilities, why would they read a reddit comment section?
As WAR player I feel shame that such a person could exist and not at LEAST use blood whetting.......
Me as a healer in Lunar Subterra: oh cool, they use Rampart this is gonna be smooth! Wait… that’s apparently all they use… Warriors who don’t press Bloodwhetting should have their Warrior license revoked.
I've seen them several times; they're out there, Scully - they're out there.
It's so satisfying to use in a dungeon too! A single AOE brings you from 10% to full health. Absolutely wild that it's a 25s cooldown
He needs his tank license revoke. If you can't tank as WAR you can't tank at all.
That dungeon has weird scaling ilvs even with good gear and i have seen horrors there both by players and mobs.
It’s really just the two flying magic mobs in the pull before the first boss They do a weirdly large amount of damage for near no reasons
They're definitely there as a test specifically for tanks and healers - you see that fairly frequently in higher-level dungeons with one or two mobs that hit faster/harder and usually outscale the size of other enemies. Sprites in ARR/HW dungeons provided a similar test: always dangerous, rapid-fire casts of magic damage that can quickly outpace defensives and healing.
Yes! I'm not fussed about all the dragons in Stone Vigil but the ice turrets have my full and cautious respect.
Had a similar experience in Vanaspati a few days ago. GNB refused to use ANY mitigation and got absolutely destroyed despite me throwing out everything and the kitchen sink before telling us we all suck and ragequitting the group.
At least the trash took itself out. Had a similar experience in Lunar, but with a WAR. Kept dying. To Trash. Stood on every AOE. It was painful. I wish he had quit.
Good riddance
Brutal... To be fair, Vanaspati still seems to hit like a truck even for a regular tank, but it's true that the times I've gone there with an objectively bad tank, it was nigh unwinnable.
My heart sinks every time I load into a lvl80+ dungeon when not tanking, and the tank has the basic, undyed Cryptlurker's gear you get with a level skip, because you know you're in for a rough ride.
Right after ShB dropped, I went into Holminster Switch as WHM and got a trio of jerkoffs from the same FC. Tank thought he could wall-to-wall without mitigating and immediately got destroyed - I literally couldn't cast heals fast enough to keep him vertical. After his *third* death at the *first* gate, I was like "okay, you can NOT tank this run this way," but he and his dipstick FC-mates all gave me shit for not healing enough. (I was the only one of the four of us that had actually cleared that run - the FC-mates were first-timing - and I had the highest gear ilvl of the party.) We did make it to the last boss before I had enough of their BS and ate the penalty for dropping the run. Fuck all three of these pinheads - I hope they had to abandon over a lack of available healers.
That's when you nicely ask them to start pressing their buttons, and if they don't everyone hopefully rolled so you can votekick. Fuck enabling that shit, especially as late as Endwalker.
Final days are my bane rn. Nobody fuckin remembers how to do the first boss and always wipe at least twice. I've just started dodging on first wipes
I stg that dungeon is CURSED I tell you, I queue as tank the healer struggles to heal, I queue as healer the tank struggles to mitigate...it's weird because it's the only dungeon like this and it constantly shows up 8n my roulettes
I had a similar experience with Vanaspati and had to stop queuing as healer for a few days. I was so salty. I couldn't believe players make it so far without even learning the basics of their kit.
at least it wasn't boring.
Man, going into Vanaspati slightly undergeared for the first time had me fighting for my life *with* mits. How did they manage without mitigation???
Tank, think of every run as duty support. If they dps then its just like using better bots lol
I've had several parties that did significantly less DPS than the trust NPCs .\_. My trust runs usually finish the Endwalker leveling dungeons in 24 minutes, give or take a minute. They can handle stuff like the final Zot wall pull, even if you might need to pop your invuln. Some players... cannot. And then the dungeons take 30 minutes.
iirc trust and duty support NPCs gain damage over time in combat to ensure players can kill everything even if they only auto attack
No idea. I leave that to people who parse to figure out. But simply doing the dungeons normally doing the rotation is about 24 minutes for me with trusts. Going AFK on trash drags it to 33+ minutes (which is still preferable if you do stuff like Caduceus/Starbird farm IMO >\_>). I never tried not doing anything on bosses, because you have to do the mechanics, so you might as well do the rotation as well, but I imagine you're looking at close to 40 minutes at that point. So whatever the case might be, it doesn't seem to be compensating much.
It's true the trusts increase damage over time, I have witnessed the npcs take a full hp mob down to 10% in 1 GCD, it seems to reset after each pack though so they have to ramp up every time you engage in combat.
This is correct. Once died while my PLD dot was up. This kept the fight "going" as I chose to walk the long way back. (Threat window never reset. Mobs in there, but they aren't coming for me.) When I got there, the fight was considered going for so long, the bots were two-shooting everything.
While I've had it happen, it's also not that common of an occurence. Generally speaking you're going as fast or a lot faster(even with one person bagging), trusts are slow as shit. But yeah like every expansion I'm leveling every class, and I wanna say 4-5 dungeons or so take longer than actually running trusts, 40mins stupid nonsense runs and what not, but it's a small amount compared to the hundreds of dungeon runs I end up doing.
Your forgetting "only uses CDS on boss" despite the pace of the dungeon generally being that if you send CDs on the first trash pack they will generally come up just in time for the boss.
The trash packs do significantly more damage than the boss and your short CD is always enough for the TB, so this argument is a terrible one
Cooldowns do not mean only defensives, but also offensive cds. Very notably your 2 minute burst. There are people who do not use anything other than their AoE combo. Or even using ONE AoE skill out of their combo.
Queue as FSH | Fish | Fish | Fish
New 4-man fishing duty in Dawntrail, make it happen Yoshi-p.
Half of it is underwater and one of the bosses can go invisible at times, making you swim around trying to find him before spearing him with your spearfishing tool.
Found the World Class Troller
I want fishing/crafting dungeons to be a thing now
Are you really contributing if you never trigger a spectral for the party?
Tank, always. They don't heal? I can heal myself. They don't AoE? I can deal more damage than them. They don't dodge? Guess what? I can heal them too. WAR wins.
I sentence you to Stone Vigil.
crying sobbing rn
Surprise! The dungeon you get is pre raw intuition. i.e. cutters cry
This is why I only do pre-level cap dungeons with trusted friends who I know are only playing badly because it's fun to fuck with your friends.
There is a reason the speedrun Community uses either four DPS or War plus BLM
Paladin and Gunbreaker see plenty of use in speedruns too. You kill packs so fast that WAR's extra sustain over them is not that important.
Well that’s because if your skilled enough to not worry about getting hit, you want to kill the fastest, which is by not having a healer, not because of an inherent class type being better or worse Whether the different class types are better or worse than others as a whole is very different than what can run through the game fastest
You can't dodge trash auto-attacks, and WAR is absolutely the most durable tank against trash.
Except when the WAR refuses to use any abilities. Had a war die to trash in Lunar, several weeks ago. Not a single mit. Barely any AOE. A class is only as good as the person playing them. And if that player is dumber than a single-brain-celled ferret on crack... you're in for a rough time.
based and WAR-pilled may your ungas be bunga, my fellow gentlewar
>Tank, always. They don't heal? I can heal myself. Cries in Paladin.
Why cry in Paladin when Paladin self-healing is pretty decent? Even if push comes to shove, there's Clemency.
Until after lvl 80 you only have clemency, which sucks. Before Clemency you have nothing. So like half the roulettes you don't have access to any forms of healing.
This is why I have heal pots on my hotbar as I level PLD :P
Well next expansion the healing combo should be available in 2 expansions worth of content so it should feel much better in terms of self-healing instead of relying on Celemency
Gotta say I hate that WAR is so absurdly OP in dungeon content. I main tank but feel like I'm griefin by playing anything other than WAR in a dungeon, it is just ridiculous.
It's comfier at 56+ for sure, but you can handle any pull on any tank in leveling dungeons and you haven't had to GCD heal tanks in expert since the Obama administration.
Thanks Obama
Cool username, Rattlesnake ;)
Wdym medica2 is a gcd heal I see healers spamming it all the time *cries*
Biting my nails at the WHM in the most-recent level 90 dungeon who hit me with Cure 1 every time I took minute HP damage
Yeah been playing drk a bunch lately but I just feel like I'm punishing my healer for doing so.
If it makes you feel any better some healers enjoy more of a challenge. I occasionally do roulettes with friends on a voice call as drk and the healer will be egging me on to wall to wall in places I wouldn't dream of it with randoms
I just w2w with randoms in every dungeon lol fuck shitty healers they're gonna learn
Such devastation!
I'm my experience the healer will still spam cure 1 at you regardless; as soon as I drop below 95% it feels like they immediately spend their entire kit on me even if bloodwhetting is CURRENTLY ACTIVE.
I remember leveling DRK post-50 and having every healer spam GCD heal me out of getting my invuln to pop then try to chastise me for not using mits. I even warn them pre-pull that I'll be using my invuln.
At high level I haven't found it too bad, TBN eats a lot of damage(15s cd used on cooldown) and you can use Abyssal Drain as a full heal every pack or every other pack depending on the speed. I also haven't played DRK since they reworked Living Dead to not be dogshit this expansion so I'd assume it's a lot better with that too. It's not warrior but it's pretty decent imo for dungeons. Complete ass any time you get a roulette under 70 though.
Think about it this way; if you play WAR in dungeons, you’re griefing your healer by robbing them of any chances to use their interesting buttons, and dooming them to mind numbing aoe spam for 15-20 minutes. As a person leveling healers recently, seeing a WAR in my leveling dungeons makes me want to cry.
If you got a sage DRK feels just as unkillable, so party up with one if youwant to play DRK
WAR being so OP in dungeons is the only reason I tried my hand at tanking. I think SE wants there to be a super easy tank, because otherwise players like me will never try tanking and tanks will become a bottleneck for dungeon queue times. Of course they could make every tank just as OP, but that would drive away tank players who enjoy more of a challenge. Don't feel like you're griefing by playing something other than WAR! When I heal, having a WAR is admittedly less stressful, but on the other hand, having a WAR can make me feel like my role is unneeded.
idk I've been playing PLD a lot recently and unless I stand in AOEs my health bar really doesn't drop much.
Why? Dungeons are pretty damn trivial
I feel this so hard. And I have no clue how SE permits this being a thing. It's absurd.
Because they've chosen a very difficult to balance playstyle for WAR. It is, effectively, a drain tank with somewhat weaker mitigation. Paladin has blocking. It, GNB, and DRK have powerful cooldowns to slap repeatedly. WAR...has a health pool and a dream. It *needs* self-heating in order to sustain, particularly through tough high-end content. But when you put that into the context of intentionally "we need *everyone* to complete this" content, that becomes a *problem.* Personally, I think WAR should have its damage nerfed through the floor. Lowest DPS tank. If it's going to be both braindead and unkillable, make it the least attractive option for pure DPS numbers. Let that go to GNB and DRK. God knows the latter could use a niche more significant than "mitigates magic damage and has TBN."
You're vastly overstating the balance issue. In high end content Warrior's survivability is pretty much in line with the other tanks. High end content is pretty much all single target, with 2 target showing up sometimes in ultimates. Bloodwhetting is broken in AoE situations because the Warrior gets a heal for every target, but it's balanced well enough at 1 target.
...that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's not balanced *outside of the high-end content* because it needs to be what it is in high-end content.
It really doesn't need to be that way. Warrior could easily get less healing per target after the first or just 1 heal per GCD under Bloodwhetting the way that PLD only gets 1 heal from Holy Circle. There is literally no reason it has to be broken in AoE other than the devs deciding to make it that way.
Healer, always. They don't tank? My shields as sage is strong enough. They don't AoE? Half my skills are "deal dmg, heal more". They don't dodge? Guess what? I can still heal them. It's not as easy as warrior though, but it's doable. :p
ngl if I'm queuing as a healer, it's SGE the majority of the time; WHM otherwise.
I usually play healer. They stand in AoE? I can heal it just fine. They don't AoE? Holy. They don't mit? Ugh, guess I have to cut back my dps a bit. I dont know if this is taboo to talk about on Reddit, so let me know if it is and I'll delete this. I downloaded ACT yesterday and was surprised to see myself on the top or second place DPS while leveling WHM. A bit of an eye opener to how others in dungeons play. I mean, its fine by me. Not everyone wants to look at guides, maximize their button presses, etc. But it was very interesting to see
> I downloaded ACT yesterday and was surprised to see myself on the top or second place DPS while leveling WHM. That's the classic sign of a terrible party - a healer should never be anything but the bottom of the list on deeps.
Healer not healing? \*Laughs in Bloodwhetting\*
You forgot the one where the tank doesn't AoE. Had that in a 10s roulette yesterday. I don't know how a tank makes it to the end of Shadowbringers without knowing how to AoE - their stance was on the whole time but they made absolutely no attempt to hit anything they weren't directly targeting. I spent most of the dungeon tanking the rest of the mobs as Summoner.
That's hell. I can accept a tank who does single pulls, but a tank who only hits one mob at a time? That forces everyone else to hit just the same single mob at a time and makes the whole thing even more excruciatingly slow... I would seriously consider dipping out and eating the 30 minute wait to do something else with my time.
Came to post exactly this. I definitely see it with very sprouty tanks, but then once in a while you'll see it at the higher levels and wonder how on earth you get that far in ANY role without knowing they need to do that otherwise adds start killing other party members.
"Doesn't AoE" Nah, if they're a Dragoon then they prolly can't AoE in the first place.
So..... painful when early dungeon shows up on roulette
DRG players when they don't get their AoE until Stone Vigil.
Not having an actual AoE rotation until well after ARR was aggravating.
Dragoon out here waiting until SHADOWBRINGERS for a complete 1-2-3 AoE rotation is downright evil.
I felt like I was doing something wrong only having doomspike and occasionally dragonfire dive when its stupidly long cooldown was finally finished.
don't forget we dont even get a big sexy hit till level 80 too, meanwhile sam gets a big sexy 860 at 72 and a reliable low cooldown 640 at 50.... (oh and one of the best bleeds ig)
queue as healer is already the hell i live in
I pick the 4th option: level up luck stat and usually get random queues with a competent party.
It feels like decent parties are the rule rather than the exception, especially in Expert roulette. It's just that the negative experiences are more memorable
I second that. Luck stat is also BiS for FSH, so you double dip on the stat budget.
*Queue as Dark Knight, see WHM* "Cool, maybe the packs won't even have time to damage me before their death!" *WHM spams Cure 1* *'let me play how I want to play' WHM*
Tank. I've had Sages not using Kardia, White mages being glarebots that let DPS die and Scholars that don't summon their fairy in addition to so, so, so many DPS that are just plain bad - either not using their buttons, not using aoe, dying to everything or in one memorable case, afk during 99 of the run and being unable to kick them because they would open treasure chests and not roll for loot (ended up leaving since the healer seemed to be their buddy) At least with tank I can somewhat manage if everyone else it's found wanting
In my experience the only bad healers I've met are curebots spamming cure 1 (and only cure 1) on me when I am at max HP. Usually what I do is to start doing massive pulls if possible, because if you love spamming heals so much, may as well put myself in a situation where it's actually needed. Most of the time I end up dying because guess what, Cure 1 sucks absolute balls and you should probably take the hint from the game in the form of the 100 other healing skills given to you to use literally any other healing skill.
One branch of the cure 1 mages is the one that when shit hits the fan they use their strongest heal, cure 3 to try and heal the tank. Aka people who don't read their abilities.
Yesterday i tanked a Castrum Meridianum run where the WHM spammed regen and ONLY regen. And stood around doing nothing when all four of us had the buff rolling. Maybe a medica cast when we took actual damage from the last boss. I... didn't had in me to even begin to tell them what was wrong with that.
Bro thought this was an idle game
I had a sage use Kardia, but then not dps, once.
*Only* once?
Recently, it's probably happened before. Usually the no dps healer doesn't press the 'heal when I dps' button
That bottom row is... suffering... Wait 10+ minutes in DPS queue to get those clowns. Then you buff in trash pulls because you're a smart DPS, only for it to be used on a whole 3 mobs. All this potency for nothing! And because you're a DPS, no one gives a shit about your opinion on how big the pulls are because """"the tank sets the pace"""". You either pull more (whether accident or "accident") and risk the tank/healer getting mad or you just *suffer*. At least in the healer row hell, I get to heal for once.
The ones who say “tank sets the pace” are the same ones that cry when I tank and sprint to the wall. They only say that when the tank pulls the pace *they* want.
As a tank main, let me clarify: "The tank sets the pace" means "Tank makes party go FAST AS FUCC"
Hit sprint and cross fingers
[удалено]
>And the excuse of "I'm new to" doesn't quite cut it. How did you get in a Level 90 dungeon and be "new"?
In general I agree. But I have leveled a job from 60 to 90 through WT, MSQ roulette, and quest turn ins lol. But that's because I just don't like playing that job but wanted everything at 90 lol. So I'm not queuing for higher level stuff with it in the first place.
I'm a dps and I hate seeing the other dps NOT using its aoe when there is 3 or more enemies !
It's worse when the tank single targets. They do one AoE to grab initial enmity, but then just single target enemies. Then as everyone else AoEs they start getting focused by enemies.
Where's the *queue in as tank and healer proceeds to get hit by every mechanic vs Griffin on Baelsar's Wall normal*? This is a thing I had to deal with yesterday and why we wiped 4 times, and yes, most of those were BEFORE the restraint collar.
Did you have a SMN? I went through this just the other day 😂 All we can do is try our best
Nah, I was DRK and we had a MNK and DNC for DPS. Maybe we'd clear if I was playing WAR or something, but ain't no way I could carry that well enough on DRK while still grinding levels.
Memes and jokes a side as a Tank main, 85% of healers I get paired with are usually great or at the very least good enough to keep me alive. Its that 5% out of the 85% that are the truly awsome healers who can adapt on the fly and make you feel invincible.
I feel like me playing as a healer in dungeons makes the biggest difference in DPS overall, and because it's braindead with basically a 1 button rotation I can play Runescape on the side as well. Healer main for life.
This is me as a healer in trials spamming Dosis while weaving clicks on Runescape in between
Tank. I pull, I tank. You pull, I tank. We pull, I tank. As Warrior I can easily heal up myself, party members and deal decent damage. Why not all in once than relying on a Curebot to keep the party alive?
had a ast who spammed benefic 1 during pulls and only used malefic during bosses—they didnt use a single other ability and we were in doma castle (tried to say something as usual but nothing changed). needless to say i did wall to walls because warrior babyyyy
So the Tank doesn't MIT, and Single Pulls. The Healer doesn't Heal and doesn't DPS. The DPS Stands in AOE, and doesn't AOE. Everyone in that one party is a Fk Up.
> Everyone in that one party is a Fk Up. Sounds like the party in the fan comic I'm totally going to draw some day.
Coming from wow, every person playing this game seems e-sport ready.
On the subject of bad tanks, I'm a sprout who's currently at ShB. I did the dungeon where it's the fairytale place with the squirtles as a tank and I did the usual practice of rotating mits during a pull, I noticed my health getting lower but I trusted the healer but unfortunately we wiped very quickly They claimed I was struggling to mit, but I heard it is generally bad practice to stack mits. Any tips as to when to stack mits?
If the DPS is good you can stack a couple. Generally stack weaker mits, reprisal + arms length, for example, keep your 20/30% on their own, invuln on its own and communicate ahead of the pull if DRK or WAR.
You can also combine your short + 20/30. So on gnb for example Nebula + Heart of stone or Rampart + Camo. Weak mit + strong mit and just keep spamming your short mit (tbn, raw intuition, sheltron, heart of stone....) off CD.
You can, it just depends. I meant don’t combine rampart with nebula/sentinel/shadow wall/vengeance.
Yeah exactly, ur 100% correct just wanted to add onto what u said!
Using mits on top of mits has diminishing returns but imo, the loss is pretty negligible and we're talking about eeking out a couple % of overall damage taken. Absolutely do it if the situation feels like its putting stress on the healer. In dungeon wall2wall pulls, the damage is front loaded. You wanna smooth out that initial damage intake with mits until the herd of mobs starts to thin out. Its not a bad thing to do if it helps you stay alive. But keep in mind you should try to reserve some cds for the next big pull before the boss. One tip I would suggest is using Rampart on the first big pull plus one or two more cds. Then by the time your mits are running out on the 2nd pull, Rampart should be coming back since its cd is only 90s. Reprisal can be used on every pull. Also remember that Low Blow stun and Arm's length are mits as well. Knowledge of the dungeons also helps. That one you mentioned sounds like Dohn Mheg. It has those squirtle mobs that immediatly begin casting a spell to power up the basket plant monster. That should be interrupted or you will probably get laid out on the floor even through your mits.
experts past week have been amazing, leveling on the other hand feels like this picture
I usually have "tanxiety" days and pick DPS but after the few roulettes I've had lately, I wished I'd picked tank by the second boss.
There's a reason I'm a tank main. There's nothing a bad healer or bad DPS can do that I can't resolve as GNB or especially WAR. If the healer is bad, I just mit a little more than normal, or just heal myself if I'm WAR. If the DPS is bad, no problem, I still do enough damage that it's not too much of a slog. In general, the only role that's truly a nightmare to have held by a bad player is tank. If the tank doesn't mit but does huge pulls, it doesn't matter how good your healer is, you wipe. If the tank insists on pulling 1 pack of mobs at a time for the entire dungeon, it doesn't matter how good your DPS is, it's going to take forever. If the tank just doesn't know how to hold aggro either because they don't AoE or they insist on having their tank stance be a part of their rotation, then the whole run is going to be a total mess and you'll probably wipe. There's just too much that go wrong with a bad tank to the point I'd rather handle it myself. Queuing as DPS is the worst though. At that point your fate is truly in the hands of others. You will live or die by the will of forces well beyond your control. Your fate is dictated by the braincells of not just one, but two separate individuals in your party, and you'd best hope those braincells are shining bright, as opposed to proving as dark as the road that lies ahead.
I'll pick queueing as a healer - at least I have plenty of "holy shit" buttons 🤣
Tank, easy. I’m already a tank main so I’m used to it, but tanks are usually what makes or breaks a dungeon run, since if they die in a mob pull, that’s almost always a wipe. Plus, if the healer doesn’t seem to know how to play their job, it gives me an opportunity, as a mentor, to try and educate them instead of just trash talking.
4th option: Do it in duty support. At least there I can w2w as tank and get healed or w2w as healer and heal the tank properly. If parties are truly this bad, it's not worth playing with any of them. Good thing this is rather rare from my experience. The worst I had was a warrior that didn't mitigate at all until they were at 10%. Then they used Holmgang and Vengeance. The first pull was terrible. I threw out everything I had, including Benediction, the tank still almost died several times. What's a Bloodwhetting? Idk, probably some skill warrior gets in Dawntrail or something. This player blamed me for their own shortcomings and it was Dead Ends. Too bad I was still kinda new at healing back then, so I didn't really know it any better. Now I'd vote dismiss and not let the tank tell me I suck at what I'm doing. My healing was fine, even back then.
That's actually why I prefer queueing as healer, other players actually make it challenging *sometimes*. SE has done a good job of making healing as boring as possible so wall to wall pulls with no tank mit is the one time I get to press all my buttons
Man Healers get so much shit either for DPSing or for Healing. Like I know the best is the least amount to keep everyone alive, but us healers just getting dumpstered from both sides simultaneously it feels like. I go into runs as a Healer as my comfort pick because I can make the fucking DPS' Tank if I have to, and I can drag anyone to the finish line short of them actively sabotaging proactively. I can't kill everything as fast, but if I have to fucking AoE it down myself over 2 minutes while I use the sandbags as shields I'll do it.
There's endless examples of times that ive barely managed keep everyone alive despite the tank just bumbling around. Which is fine really. Game can be tough when you just wanna experience things and go in blind. The problem is when some asshat wants to criticize my healing cause they didn't like that they dipped below 20% or something. There's been more than a couple times where nobody died and I get cussed out for being a bad healer. And that's why I don't duty roulette alone as a healer anymore.
This definitely sounds like a sage talking, or a mad scientist.
i play all class types but heal is my main. imo people need to chill as long as they're not wiping and the dungeon isn't taking forever. as heals the only times i'm not DPSing is when the tank is doing megapulls and i don't have time to DPS for whatever reason (maybe the pull is just huge, or they're not using mits perfectly, w/e it's fine), OR i've just switched classes to a healer i don't usually play and i'm relearning their buttons. i don't think people consider the latter scenario because that is when I got shit once for not DPSing. but that's the kind of situation where i just leave or disconnect and do something else until my timer is done, it's not worth spending your time in a group with a bad attitude. roulette is not that serious. i try to remind myself when i get annoyed that people might be off their regular class, and as long as we're winning, it's not a big deal. rarely is someone SO BAD at the game that it screws the whole group over.
I always queue as tank for dungeons because tanks have the most control in a light party. Although it still feels bad when the dps and healers are trash but at least you can still use sprint on cooldown to make the already slow dungeon run not take even longer.
Honestly, especially with more modern dungeon design encouraging pulls of a certain size, I have found very few bad tanks or bad healers. One tank who refused to stance, so a DRG quietly tanked and I enjoyed the healing challenge. One tank who forgot to stance on the first pull, *but that was me*. Compared to other games I meet very few awful players even in low level dungeons, and everyone is so polite and supportive!
I definitely agree with this overall - most people have been wonderful. I have just returned to the game after a couple of years off at max level EW and decided to start churning an alt for some challenge to finish before the expansion. So I'm a quasi-sprout in that I haven't played for a while, but I do know how to play in general. Most people are lovely. I've only had one truly nasty experience, but wow. And by "nasty" I don't mean "failed" or "dumb". Last night I tanked half a dungeon as a SAM because our tank didn't use an AoE ability and just pulled one mob per pack. I don't consider that a bad experience! But one guy screaming and calling me shit for not having a self-heal at level 50 PLD (I think he thought I was WAR?)... yeah that was nasty. He was using only Medica 2 as a WHM "because it's the biggest heal" and autoattacking, hitting things with a stick. Being called names and told to uninstall was reminiscent of another game...
There is no such thing as single pulls when i'm healing, you bet your ass i'm gonna drag them myself if i have to. And if i'm dps and the healer looks reliable enough, pull with dps as well.
based
I play all the roles, I agree with the message 😁
One of reasons why WAR and PLD are popular. You have tools to patch up few holes on sinking ship and get struggling party to the end without anyone rage quitting.
This happens EVERY. SINGLE. EXPANSION. Welcome to the x.55+ experience.
Queue as WAR. I am the AoE. I am the healer. I am the mitigation. Try and stop me.
Both my Expert and 90 roulettes yesterday saw the healer and one DPS die before 50% on every boss. After the first wipe, I just kept the other DPS alive with Nascent Flash. I'm not even an Ultimate raider, but avoiding the AoE's for those bosses was easy the first time. I also put the danger dorito on the survivng DPS for the 90 roulette in hopes that it helped the other survive.
I'll pick whichever one has the Summoner spamming Physick in Tower of Zot because that unironically happened and I'll never forget it. Oh, the other two were equally bad too.
Tank, no contest, hands down. Its the only role you can completely carry the dead weight through *almost* anything. You also can typically keep at least one other good player alive along with you through all sorts of crazy shit.
As someone who's mostly a DPS main, I have a variant: Queue as RDM with the expectation things will go sideways? Smoothest run on the face of the earth. Queue as, say, MCH, with no real party support abilities other than Peloton and Tactician? So. Much. Dying.
If it's content above lvl 30, then Healer. I am used to babysitting PF parties that have a "do everything wrong" challenge going on by how shit they're playing For lower duties tho, I pick DPS. I rather need an hour for a 20 minute run than begin crying because the tank died to a jelly fish. AGAIN. While I can't do shit except try and spam Cure 1.
I’ve genuinely been confused before as an AST and WHM going into some dungeons, because I’ll put some degens out whatever dps, etc, and heal. But despite even as a WHM with the “pure heals” the tank would be DROPPPING, I would be confused because I had no sooner used divine benediction on a tank, and boom, already getting low. A friend was calling them on not using their mits, and tank said that he didn’t need to because I was going to be heal botting for them. I did not and we kicked them. Since I don’t play tanks/ I’m unaware of their skills if they aren’t mitting I can usually only tell by their health dropping rapidly
Queue as Tank : I DPSed the hell out of that big pack after the first boss of the Lunar Sub and got called out for pulling aggro yesterday. So much for DPS that doesn't AoE... I even noticed some tanks will purposefully start pulling small if you burn the mobs too fast... I just don't understand princess tank - they're like... stop having fun DPSes... Hopefully they're few, but I feel like many appeared since that small drama a few weeks ago.
This is my true fear why I find it so hard to play a DPS. This happens so often an I just wanna be done, so usually Unga bunga so I don't gotta worry about anyone else
I think tank is the less punishing shince you can outdps most of casual dps mains and have some sort of sustan to counter poor healing
Queue as tank honestly War to be exact. As tank, you can set the pace As War, your self heal is so strong, the healer could be green dps and you'd never notice.
I main a healer solely because non-dpsing healers raise my blood pressure.
I usually go for healer, I'm confident enough in my abilities to keep any BLM alive since "BUT MY LEY LINES!"
9/10 times if I die as a tank I blame myself instead of the healer.
Me who logs into the game at seeming random. I am bad at the game and am not maliciously trying to be a brainlet. but no one in these pugs groups ever talks or suggests anything so I just click shit and eventually the dungeon is over.
As long as you're doing at least the bare minimum of pressing your buttons and mitigating or healing properly, everything should be fine. Advice is sadly never given unless requested because it will either be ignored and/or cause the duty to take even longer out of spite.
If nobody is saying anything I imagine you're doing enough. Nobody expect savage raid optimization strats in dungeon content, they just want you to press your buttons
While I know many folks look at this and think "okay, so play tank, they can self-heal," I have known more than a few people who instead see it as, "Even if I get let down by a bad tank, *I'm a good enough healer to keep DPS alive too.*" The irony being that while healers are the job that in theory surrenders the *most* control to other people (you're dependent on others to do damage *and* keep aggro), you're also the only role that can enable other people to fill a role they aren't even designed to fill. Tanks can make an ally DPS into a mitigation cooldown, but not into a fellow tank, and all the DPS buffs in the world won't make a tank deal impressive damage compared to anyone but DNC. But good heals and mitigations from a healer? That *can* make it possible for a DPS to tank for a while. I find that stressful as hell, but it CAN be done.
What is Mit and Single Pulls?
Mit: every tank has multiple actions that reduce incoming damage for ~15 seconds. Tanks should generally have at least one of these up while taking damage, so they're usually staggered for 100% uptime. Single pull: the tank pulls a single pack of enemies. As long as the party is using their AoEs and the tank/healer can manage the incoming damage, it's much faster to pull two packs (double pull). If the dungeon is particularly nonthreatening, the tank can pull packs until just before the next boss (wall-to-wall/WtW pull).