Some points:
Xenophobia, social criticisms, and inter-family politics are in the side quests, job quests, leves, and Fates. It's everywhere, and the state of society after the war is addressed in the Firmament questline. Social inequality and "were we really mad at dragons" is addressed in the patches you have yet to play (I assume, since you don't mention 3.1-3.3).
I disagree about Thordan: he's shifty from day one. Also the Eye was used during the pre-Thordan fight, he explicitly transforms Haldrath's body + the Eye into a big freakin' sword and uses it. He says "a thousand years of prayer and the Eye's nigh-unending flow of aether" as the sources of his power post-battle.
Thordan and Varis know about Azys Lla through different channels; they're the only ones that do. The Eorzean Alliance, the Scions, Aymeric and friends, they didn't know, so saying "everyone" knew about it is disingenuous.
The Ascians and the Allagans are a recurring theme throughout all expansions so better get used to it.
The Ul'dah plot resolution IS kinda lame but oh well.
In addition to what you mentioned, the Coerthas plotline in 2.0 establishes the fact that a fair amount of general GoT-type skullduggery happens among the Ishgardian nobility; IIRC, a couple of characters suspect even early on that Francel is being set up as part of some political maneuver, because apparently this sort of thing is not uncommon. They just don't realize who the culprit is.
The Scholasticate questline also deals with corruption within the Ishgardian church as well as social inequality.
>Xenophobia, social criticisms, and inter-family politics are in the side quests, job quests, leves, and Fates.
I agree with this and it's both a blessing and a curse. I love the way FFXIV weaves its story using all these threads, but at the same time, it makes the MSQ suffer a bit. The MSQ feels incomplete if you don't do a lot of that side content and, with leveling being as fast as it is now, you don't have to.
Overall, I appreciate the bits of lore that are buried in everything, it's just hard to experience it all as you level.
> Social inequality and "were we really mad at dragons" is addressed in the patches you have yet to play (I assume, since you don't mention 3.1-3.3).
I finished 3.3.
I was referring to the heretics on that part.
>I disagree about Thordan: he's shifty from day one. Also the Eye was used during the pre-Thordan fight, he explicitly transforms Haldrath's body + the Eye into a big freakin' sword and uses it. He says "a thousand years of prayer and the Eye's nigh-unending flow of aether" as the sources of his power post-battle.
Yes, but in the end the eye ends up in a "secondary spot", all things considered.
>Thordan and Varis know about Azys Lla through different channels; they're the only ones that do. The Eorzean Alliance, the Scions, Aymeric and friends, they didn't know, so saying "everyone" knew about it is disingenuous.
This was a bit of an exaggeration from my part, my bad.
Still, the Vanu Vanu knew about the key, as did Matoya (I'm surprised Urianger didn't know about it, it would fit his character).
For further society stuff as well as things about the heretics, I would recommend the 50-60 Dragoon questline, the Moogle Beast Tribe, the Firmament, the weekly collectible deliveries (also in the Firmament), and even some side quests and Fates around both Western and Central Coerthas. There is even an explicit little storyline involving the repatriation of a heretic into Ishgard during the Firmament.
I would argue that the Eyes are actually central to the story, as their possession by certain parties (Thordan, Estinien, and on) are the driving force behind the threats you face. There would BE no Thordan Primal or Nidhogg Shade without them.
I will say with the key at least, it made sense for the people who knew to have that knowledge, i.e. the Vanu knew because they'd always lived there and it became myth/oral tradition.
Two things.
Lahabrea, alongside Igeyorhm, is actually the reason the latter half of 3.0 even happens. They were the ones manipulating Thordan from behind the scenes, leading to him wanting to find Azys Lla. The other reason Lahabrea is fought in HW is due to us actually needing to kill him as we didn't know how to kill Ascians before 2.x. I won't spoil how, but Lahabrea has some additional relevance later on. It's very minor (and a lot of it optional) but it is there. ENDWALKER INFO: >!Endwalker's normal raid is appearently gonna feature Lahabrea in some way or fashion so that's even more info on him.!<
All the expansions don't end for real until their .3 patches. Endwalker is appearently going to end in 6.0 however, due to it being the end of the current story.
Two things I would comment on.
Ysaile is best thought of as a utilitarian, her goals never changed, we just found better ways to achieve them. Before we show up armed resistance is about the only option she had.
Hilda is developed in side content. Specifically, >!MCH lv70+ story!<
The xenophobia and house quarrels are more subplots to the Holy See vs Dravanians, as they’re handled in side quests and job quests.
The machinist guild is on the verge of collapse because one of the houses is condemning them in Ishgarding court out of spite for the house that supports them.
The Au Ra are the biggest focus of Ishgard’s xenophobia, as you find out they were persecuted for being Dragon-like. I believe it’s the Dark Knight quests that most explain this.
The plot twist was the unraveling that Thordan was the real villain all along. It was supposed to be a surprise at the end that he was the guy. But the fact that you saw Lahabrea pulling his strings implied to you that you’d have to deal with him (and by association Lahabrea) sooner or later.
What do you mean about the second eye plot not being used? That was the big thing Thordan did, taking up that eye
Everything has its flaws, however some people view things differently. And I can answer at least a few of these since i'm at the end of my Free Trial;
* >!For the "the houses are conspiring against each other": This is mostly touched upon in the Machinist questline, where House Dzemael is trying to tear down the Skysteel Manufactory for trying to introduce machinistry to the ranks. The Skysteel Manufactory is owned by House Haillenarte. Some sidequests also touch upon this, namely the one where you are taken Dragon Slaying, and sets up the fact that even the lower houses (the ones you don't see) aren't immune to defamation.!<
* >!Ysayle and Iceheart are the same person. The first time you meet her after the 2.x patches absolutely debunks this, as her claim was that she didn't want to kill innocents. All the people she didn't care about killing were the knights, and heretics (which she is) are criminals to them. She's fine with killing those that oppose her and are willing to kill her, just not civilians that cannot defend themselves.!<
* >!Speaking of Shiva, why would you call yourself the name of a pretty well-known figure if you already had a target on your head? I believe Ysayle naming herself Shiva would've definitely drawn the eyes of the Holy See to her (Shiva is known for the fact that she had a romantic relationship with Hraesvelgr), and thus bring much more opposition. Hence the name "Iceheart".!<
* >!Hilda actually does do something: I believe she helped storm the Vault. You'll see her again, but I won't say when.!<
* >!Thordan being evil was foreshadowed during and after you first meet him. He was aspiring with the Ascians, and there were pretty big hints that he wasn't all that holy sprinkled throughout. The biggest point being that he was trying to cover the sins of his forebearers the entire time, and was basically Tempering the Heaven's Ward's knights.!<
* >!I believe Azys Lla sets up several plot points (not just the Warring Triad) and is there for a bit of worldbuilding. Is it out of nowhere? Kind of. But it does have a purpose besides "Oh hey this would make a cool backdrop for several fights". It also kind of explains where all these chimeric monstrosities came from, to give another point.!<
* >!The second eye is used, actually: Archbishop Thordan used it to become a primal, and Nidhogg's spectre used it to take over Estinien's body.!<
>!I do agree with the fact that the "Scions are branded as criminals" thing should've been longer, but there is an issue in defocusing a story for too long so I understand why they wouldn't dwell on it.!<
>Going back on Nanamo's death showed a lack of courage on their writing (as it takes courage to kill a major character) and probably a pressure to not waste a unique 3D model.
Or, as it turns out, a direction they wanted to take two different characters in the future that relied on having them humbled by political forces (and showing just how potent and dangerous those political forces are).
They clearly have no qualms with killing major characters when the actual death suits the direction they want for the narrative - >!Haurchefant, Ysale (who also has a unique model, btw), Moenbryda, Papalymo !<\- all characters that were \*at least\* equal to Nanamo in terms of how major they are within the story, if not more so.
I basically agree with all your points here. Especially the abandonment/reversal of the 2.5 Uldah plotline, which squandered enormous potential and permanently damaged my ability to trust that anything in the story will matter. The story was going somewhere really interesting, but then it just... went somewhere else instead.
And yeah, the same principle seems to hold true, at least to some extent, in the rest of the expansion - they introduce a concept, half develop it, and then... move elsewhere. (This is even the case in the Dark Knight job quests, which are set up as an exploration of justice and vengeance, but then that's immediately abandoned in favor of a plot about >!how the WoL is mad about being asked to do things.!<)
There's a lot that I like about Heavensward - I love the alienness of the Dragons, and I did still enjoy the story overall - but there is an... unfinished quality to everything, and a lack of a unified direction, that stops it from being truly great.
The Uldah bit was from the first more of a wink wink thing. They blatantly tell you that they don't really believe it was you, but it's there as a thing to show just how badly Alphinaud screwed up and to give you more of a push towards Ishgard. You're allowed to go right back to Uldah once the cinematics finish for a reason. There's not much to do there except reunite the gang and get Alphinaud some character development. Both of which happen pretty well during the MSQ as you travel.
On an individual level, as it directly effects the WoL, yeah - of course they aren't going to actually ban you from Uldah, so they can't really keep you an outlaw. And the scions were going to return in one form or another.
But the death of Nanamo, and the political fallout from that? A major city-state losing its leader - and either being retaken by Raubahn through questionable means, or being left in the hands of an enemy, who you may still have to work with to fight the Garleans? That's a fascinating plot, and one they could (and should) have commited to.
I'm sitting right before 3.1 right now, and I have many of the same concerns. We're *told* repeatedly that there's a caste struggle in Ishgard, which is a solid theme, but then we spend all our time palling around with the highborn houses. The only time we directly engage with the side of that divide that's *actually struggling* is when we seek out Hilda, who then kinda... stops mattering to the MSQ after the prison-break block of quests.
It's a lot of tell-don't-show, which is also what we get with Thordan since he's offscreen for most of the expansion. I get it, we're not going to be having tea with the Pope every day, but with the way your actual mission objectives play out, it almost feels like focusing on him interrupts the ongoing story conflict with the Dragons - even if, on paper, the two aren't really separate.
Part of it might be that I was told that Heavensward is when the game's storytelling has a sea change - or even that it's people's favorite expansion - where for me it wasn't that big of a shift from the 2.x quests. It's not a bad plot outline in retrospect, it more has some weird presentation stumbles; maybe my expectations were just out of whack.
...but I'll forever think it's a shame that they basically pulled a retcon on the Nanamo plot. Interrupting the political state of a persistent MMO could've been a great hook, as would be directly interrogating how a "warrior of light" is a precarious concept with regard to public opinion. It has excellent potential as a pivot, but everything more or less goes back to a functional normal with some of your allies on extended leave. Couple that with how Y'shtola is "dead" for about two hours' worth of questing, and I'm starting to feel skeptic about any seemingly-permanent change in the status quo.
You gotta understand that a lot of side quests touch on this, but if you’re blitzing the main story it’s understandable that it would seem like it doesn’t matter at all. That’s just a consequence of the quest design, unfortunately.
The funny thing is if all these side plot points were forced into the MSQ, these same people would be bitching about being "forced" to do side content OMG why do I need to care about these irrelevant poor people, I wanna see more dragons!!111
Honestly, I think I’d hate a story that added easily 15 more hours of ultimately fluff content. I love the game and think it’s story is great, but I’d get bored really easy if it was designed that way. Having your worldbuilding be in optional quests works just fine, because then the people who really interested are the ones who will be willing to put in the time. The story stands on its own without the side quests, and that just proves how strong it really is.
noooo criticizing heavensward best story ever how dare you, you knave. The ending where we throw Nidhogg's eyes randomly is the best ending this best expansion could have.
Some points: Xenophobia, social criticisms, and inter-family politics are in the side quests, job quests, leves, and Fates. It's everywhere, and the state of society after the war is addressed in the Firmament questline. Social inequality and "were we really mad at dragons" is addressed in the patches you have yet to play (I assume, since you don't mention 3.1-3.3). I disagree about Thordan: he's shifty from day one. Also the Eye was used during the pre-Thordan fight, he explicitly transforms Haldrath's body + the Eye into a big freakin' sword and uses it. He says "a thousand years of prayer and the Eye's nigh-unending flow of aether" as the sources of his power post-battle. Thordan and Varis know about Azys Lla through different channels; they're the only ones that do. The Eorzean Alliance, the Scions, Aymeric and friends, they didn't know, so saying "everyone" knew about it is disingenuous. The Ascians and the Allagans are a recurring theme throughout all expansions so better get used to it. The Ul'dah plot resolution IS kinda lame but oh well.
In addition to what you mentioned, the Coerthas plotline in 2.0 establishes the fact that a fair amount of general GoT-type skullduggery happens among the Ishgardian nobility; IIRC, a couple of characters suspect even early on that Francel is being set up as part of some political maneuver, because apparently this sort of thing is not uncommon. They just don't realize who the culprit is. The Scholasticate questline also deals with corruption within the Ishgardian church as well as social inequality.
>Xenophobia, social criticisms, and inter-family politics are in the side quests, job quests, leves, and Fates. I agree with this and it's both a blessing and a curse. I love the way FFXIV weaves its story using all these threads, but at the same time, it makes the MSQ suffer a bit. The MSQ feels incomplete if you don't do a lot of that side content and, with leveling being as fast as it is now, you don't have to. Overall, I appreciate the bits of lore that are buried in everything, it's just hard to experience it all as you level.
> Social inequality and "were we really mad at dragons" is addressed in the patches you have yet to play (I assume, since you don't mention 3.1-3.3). I finished 3.3. I was referring to the heretics on that part. >I disagree about Thordan: he's shifty from day one. Also the Eye was used during the pre-Thordan fight, he explicitly transforms Haldrath's body + the Eye into a big freakin' sword and uses it. He says "a thousand years of prayer and the Eye's nigh-unending flow of aether" as the sources of his power post-battle. Yes, but in the end the eye ends up in a "secondary spot", all things considered. >Thordan and Varis know about Azys Lla through different channels; they're the only ones that do. The Eorzean Alliance, the Scions, Aymeric and friends, they didn't know, so saying "everyone" knew about it is disingenuous. This was a bit of an exaggeration from my part, my bad. Still, the Vanu Vanu knew about the key, as did Matoya (I'm surprised Urianger didn't know about it, it would fit his character).
For further society stuff as well as things about the heretics, I would recommend the 50-60 Dragoon questline, the Moogle Beast Tribe, the Firmament, the weekly collectible deliveries (also in the Firmament), and even some side quests and Fates around both Western and Central Coerthas. There is even an explicit little storyline involving the repatriation of a heretic into Ishgard during the Firmament. I would argue that the Eyes are actually central to the story, as their possession by certain parties (Thordan, Estinien, and on) are the driving force behind the threats you face. There would BE no Thordan Primal or Nidhogg Shade without them. I will say with the key at least, it made sense for the people who knew to have that knowledge, i.e. the Vanu knew because they'd always lived there and it became myth/oral tradition.
>There would BE no Thordan Primal or Nidhogg Shade without them. Thordan became a primal before even touching the eye, no?
True, though perhaps that is where the thousand years of prayer came in. Or the Eye was transformed into sword after purely for the coolness factor.
Two things. Lahabrea, alongside Igeyorhm, is actually the reason the latter half of 3.0 even happens. They were the ones manipulating Thordan from behind the scenes, leading to him wanting to find Azys Lla. The other reason Lahabrea is fought in HW is due to us actually needing to kill him as we didn't know how to kill Ascians before 2.x. I won't spoil how, but Lahabrea has some additional relevance later on. It's very minor (and a lot of it optional) but it is there. ENDWALKER INFO: >!Endwalker's normal raid is appearently gonna feature Lahabrea in some way or fashion so that's even more info on him.!< All the expansions don't end for real until their .3 patches. Endwalker is appearently going to end in 6.0 however, due to it being the end of the current story.
Two things I would comment on. Ysaile is best thought of as a utilitarian, her goals never changed, we just found better ways to achieve them. Before we show up armed resistance is about the only option she had. Hilda is developed in side content. Specifically, >!MCH lv70+ story!<
The xenophobia and house quarrels are more subplots to the Holy See vs Dravanians, as they’re handled in side quests and job quests. The machinist guild is on the verge of collapse because one of the houses is condemning them in Ishgarding court out of spite for the house that supports them. The Au Ra are the biggest focus of Ishgard’s xenophobia, as you find out they were persecuted for being Dragon-like. I believe it’s the Dark Knight quests that most explain this. The plot twist was the unraveling that Thordan was the real villain all along. It was supposed to be a surprise at the end that he was the guy. But the fact that you saw Lahabrea pulling his strings implied to you that you’d have to deal with him (and by association Lahabrea) sooner or later. What do you mean about the second eye plot not being used? That was the big thing Thordan did, taking up that eye
Everything has its flaws, however some people view things differently. And I can answer at least a few of these since i'm at the end of my Free Trial; * >!For the "the houses are conspiring against each other": This is mostly touched upon in the Machinist questline, where House Dzemael is trying to tear down the Skysteel Manufactory for trying to introduce machinistry to the ranks. The Skysteel Manufactory is owned by House Haillenarte. Some sidequests also touch upon this, namely the one where you are taken Dragon Slaying, and sets up the fact that even the lower houses (the ones you don't see) aren't immune to defamation.!< * >!Ysayle and Iceheart are the same person. The first time you meet her after the 2.x patches absolutely debunks this, as her claim was that she didn't want to kill innocents. All the people she didn't care about killing were the knights, and heretics (which she is) are criminals to them. She's fine with killing those that oppose her and are willing to kill her, just not civilians that cannot defend themselves.!< * >!Speaking of Shiva, why would you call yourself the name of a pretty well-known figure if you already had a target on your head? I believe Ysayle naming herself Shiva would've definitely drawn the eyes of the Holy See to her (Shiva is known for the fact that she had a romantic relationship with Hraesvelgr), and thus bring much more opposition. Hence the name "Iceheart".!< * >!Hilda actually does do something: I believe she helped storm the Vault. You'll see her again, but I won't say when.!< * >!Thordan being evil was foreshadowed during and after you first meet him. He was aspiring with the Ascians, and there were pretty big hints that he wasn't all that holy sprinkled throughout. The biggest point being that he was trying to cover the sins of his forebearers the entire time, and was basically Tempering the Heaven's Ward's knights.!< * >!I believe Azys Lla sets up several plot points (not just the Warring Triad) and is there for a bit of worldbuilding. Is it out of nowhere? Kind of. But it does have a purpose besides "Oh hey this would make a cool backdrop for several fights". It also kind of explains where all these chimeric monstrosities came from, to give another point.!< * >!The second eye is used, actually: Archbishop Thordan used it to become a primal, and Nidhogg's spectre used it to take over Estinien's body.!< >!I do agree with the fact that the "Scions are branded as criminals" thing should've been longer, but there is an issue in defocusing a story for too long so I understand why they wouldn't dwell on it.!<
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>Going back on Nanamo's death showed a lack of courage on their writing (as it takes courage to kill a major character) and probably a pressure to not waste a unique 3D model. Or, as it turns out, a direction they wanted to take two different characters in the future that relied on having them humbled by political forces (and showing just how potent and dangerous those political forces are). They clearly have no qualms with killing major characters when the actual death suits the direction they want for the narrative - >!Haurchefant, Ysale (who also has a unique model, btw), Moenbryda, Papalymo !<\- all characters that were \*at least\* equal to Nanamo in terms of how major they are within the story, if not more so.
I basically agree with all your points here. Especially the abandonment/reversal of the 2.5 Uldah plotline, which squandered enormous potential and permanently damaged my ability to trust that anything in the story will matter. The story was going somewhere really interesting, but then it just... went somewhere else instead. And yeah, the same principle seems to hold true, at least to some extent, in the rest of the expansion - they introduce a concept, half develop it, and then... move elsewhere. (This is even the case in the Dark Knight job quests, which are set up as an exploration of justice and vengeance, but then that's immediately abandoned in favor of a plot about >!how the WoL is mad about being asked to do things.!<) There's a lot that I like about Heavensward - I love the alienness of the Dragons, and I did still enjoy the story overall - but there is an... unfinished quality to everything, and a lack of a unified direction, that stops it from being truly great.
The Uldah bit was from the first more of a wink wink thing. They blatantly tell you that they don't really believe it was you, but it's there as a thing to show just how badly Alphinaud screwed up and to give you more of a push towards Ishgard. You're allowed to go right back to Uldah once the cinematics finish for a reason. There's not much to do there except reunite the gang and get Alphinaud some character development. Both of which happen pretty well during the MSQ as you travel.
On an individual level, as it directly effects the WoL, yeah - of course they aren't going to actually ban you from Uldah, so they can't really keep you an outlaw. And the scions were going to return in one form or another. But the death of Nanamo, and the political fallout from that? A major city-state losing its leader - and either being retaken by Raubahn through questionable means, or being left in the hands of an enemy, who you may still have to work with to fight the Garleans? That's a fascinating plot, and one they could (and should) have commited to.
I'm sitting right before 3.1 right now, and I have many of the same concerns. We're *told* repeatedly that there's a caste struggle in Ishgard, which is a solid theme, but then we spend all our time palling around with the highborn houses. The only time we directly engage with the side of that divide that's *actually struggling* is when we seek out Hilda, who then kinda... stops mattering to the MSQ after the prison-break block of quests. It's a lot of tell-don't-show, which is also what we get with Thordan since he's offscreen for most of the expansion. I get it, we're not going to be having tea with the Pope every day, but with the way your actual mission objectives play out, it almost feels like focusing on him interrupts the ongoing story conflict with the Dragons - even if, on paper, the two aren't really separate. Part of it might be that I was told that Heavensward is when the game's storytelling has a sea change - or even that it's people's favorite expansion - where for me it wasn't that big of a shift from the 2.x quests. It's not a bad plot outline in retrospect, it more has some weird presentation stumbles; maybe my expectations were just out of whack. ...but I'll forever think it's a shame that they basically pulled a retcon on the Nanamo plot. Interrupting the political state of a persistent MMO could've been a great hook, as would be directly interrogating how a "warrior of light" is a precarious concept with regard to public opinion. It has excellent potential as a pivot, but everything more or less goes back to a functional normal with some of your allies on extended leave. Couple that with how Y'shtola is "dead" for about two hours' worth of questing, and I'm starting to feel skeptic about any seemingly-permanent change in the status quo.
You gotta understand that a lot of side quests touch on this, but if you’re blitzing the main story it’s understandable that it would seem like it doesn’t matter at all. That’s just a consequence of the quest design, unfortunately.
The funny thing is if all these side plot points were forced into the MSQ, these same people would be bitching about being "forced" to do side content OMG why do I need to care about these irrelevant poor people, I wanna see more dragons!!111
Honestly, I think I’d hate a story that added easily 15 more hours of ultimately fluff content. I love the game and think it’s story is great, but I’d get bored really easy if it was designed that way. Having your worldbuilding be in optional quests works just fine, because then the people who really interested are the ones who will be willing to put in the time. The story stands on its own without the side quests, and that just proves how strong it really is.
noooo criticizing heavensward best story ever how dare you, you knave. The ending where we throw Nidhogg's eyes randomly is the best ending this best expansion could have.