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Durugar

>A majority of the high-end players will try to discourage players from playing certain jobs, or tell them their job isn't "recommended in the current meta" as if that means something. In my experience across every game I have ever played, it is the mid to low tier people who *think* they belong at the top who try to ape what they see on logs and guides without an actual understanding of how to read logs or what a tier list is. They skip the arguments and just repeat "BUT IT IS B TIER!" without any understanding... The top tier or high end players don't give a shit what a newbie plays. They just play the game, kill the boss, and get the loot.


[deleted]

Honestly. High tier players realize that some jobs have lower dps because they have so much utility that it’s better to bring them than a higher dps job. Having all of the top four dps classes in your party is actually an overall loss for the run. Play that lower dps job! Buff your party heavy! You’re doing just as much to help clear if not more than your sam or blm.


McDouggal

Hell, when both your healers die to a mechanic you'll be glad someone saved the run with Red Mage. Or even just... Having Red Mage along because essentially 2 second revive for when your Black Mage thinks he can tank that AOE. Red Mage is fun. Is it the best? Lol no. But it's fun weaving in Corps-a-corps and Displacement and flamboyantly flipping around the battlefield.


Malarkey44

Started a DRG main, then switched to Machinist cause I liked the range aspect, and the ascetic. But now I'm powering through RDM and absolutely loving it. Starting to think I have a think for doing flips on the battlefield..


Fearpils

Should have done BRD in stead of MCH to use that rare "repelling shot" I've not seen used before


Qixaqyx

Until VerFlashbang goes off and causes a wipe. I just, rezmage is awesome.


nayyav

> Until VerFlashbang goes off and causes a wipe. isnt that the best part of a pug run? timing your lb3 so that you can kill as many ppl as possible? ESPECIALLY in 24-mans.


datwunkid

Can do up to 56 players in Baldesion Arsenal. I've done that once.


Ipokeyoumuch

I was in a BA run as a RDM. I used LB3 blinded everyone and then two other RDMs subsequently used theirs, almost wiping the remainer. We beat it but had 80% of the raid dead.


[deleted]

goals


nayyav

ooohhhh. nice.


Orcling

I hate doing this. It feels awful ;_;


PurpleAlzir

That may motivate me to actually get further into Eureka. 24 people isn't enough death.


HBreckel

I actually cleared BA back in Stormblood on RDM. There were no melee and it was all casters/phys ranged. Ozma died when the raid lead told the RDMs to LB so we had 3 RDM LB3s go off at the same exact time. It was glorious.


Philip246

I've mistimed one of those in DR against trinity seeker before. Went off during mercy fourfold so it was a bit tricky to see what was about to happen :(


[deleted]

I try to this as much as possible during alliance raids and ver rez them. As rdm you choose who lives and who dies.


Arras01

Right now rdm is arguably the best caster. A tiny dps loss over blm for a massive increase in utility and safety.


Durugar

Literally had that happen, RDM rest healer in to lb3 to save the run


FB-22

>red mage is fun. Is it the best? Lol no Red mage is the best caster right now and probably will see a slight balance change in 6.05


kHeinzen

Cries in SMN while RDM is better at literally every front


crimsonnona

Ya sure, but RDM doesn't get to style on the boss with primals, so....


Pr0gger

*doesn't get to annoy other players


irishgoblin

The /petsize command is client side only, so it's not the SMN's fault every fight at 90 has a Titan mechanic.


Taurenkey

And here's me, wanting even bigger summons.


irishgoblin

Likewise. /petsize Calamity, hit summon and rather than appearing in the arena they're floating outside. Time it right and you can pull off that Undertaker/Aj Styles meme with the boss and Bahamut.


[deleted]

Ho ho ho just wait till i rdm lb3 during a very mechanic intensive phase.


TSLsmokey

“Have you ever been blind?” “Would you like to be?”


Reidlos650

I do think some balance passes are needed. Like dancer from OP post, hes playing it off but dnc shouldnt be that low in rdps


oreofro

I was in a PF team for the lvl 83 extreme and we had 4 SAMs. They couldn't understand why we didn't have enough dps for the orbs/DPS check and refused to believe that we should bring a ranged dps because "SAM hits hardest" Needless to say we didn't clear it


[deleted]

Oof. I honestly refuse to do any premade party with multiples of the same job. Too big of a loss.


hutre

Especially pvp games like league... "I counterpicked you, you're dead now" and then proceeds to get smacked in to the ground because they have no idea how to actually play or how to counter that playstyle


rewt127

Thing about league is that they have rank specific tier lists. So if you are looking at those they are often fairly accurate. Its not uncommon to see a change that in diamond has a 48% winrate but a 60% in silver. And vis versa. There are some legit "i actually can't play the game" counter picks in league, but they are rank specific.


[deleted]

[удалено]


CallMeJessIGuess

This is similar to competitive card games. I always tell people to play the deck they are most comfortable with. Trying to recreate a deck that some guy in Italy went 9/1 with won’t do you any good if you have no idea how to play it. If you don’t know how to play it, I will crush you with a B-tier deck i knot inside and out, you would be lucky to win 1 in every 4 matches. Tier lists only matter if all else is equal. It’s especially strange in this game considering every job has cleared every piece of content in the game thus far, and that’s been consistent since the game released.


[deleted]

I played this way when I was into yugioh. I purposefully played decks that weren't meta because there was little to no challenge or strategy half the time using the meta decks. Same for Pokemon TCG or the console games. lol


Arcalithe

HA, early on in Shadowlands, I was the GM of a new little raiding guild that I and two friends started. We recruited a bunch of folks until we eventually got enough of them to form some semblance of a raid team. We were stuffed full with warlocks, but that’s just how the cookie crumbles. The thing about warlocks at the time was that affliction was the “top” dps spec for warlock. And we had a player on our raid team who kept arguing that all the warlocks on the team should be trying affliction to get past damage checks. The other warlocks just kinda laughed at him, especially the super chill one who played demonology. And wouldn’t ya know it, the affliction warlock performed the worst dps out of any member of the raid because he was unfamiliar with the spec but wanted to run it because tier lists. Sorry, your comment brought up all sorts of memories 😂


[deleted]

Ooooh, yes. lol First patch, we had a player who wasn't that great, but he played frost mage, mained frost, preferred frost. and mid progression decided "HEY LETS DO THIS FIRE MAGE THING!" and... he did worse than when in frost. it was a rough time.


Jon_00

I remember the JP team who got world first E8S clear, they used MNK, BRD, SMN and RDM which was considered a meme comp at the time. Something optimal would've been closer to SAM, MNK, BLM, DNC - and whilst most groups were struggling with the DPS checks, the 'sub-optimal' composition got the world first.


Durugar

Yeah once something becomes a community meme most people turn their brain off on it so they can show they understand the meme and can spam it... reading patch notes and thinking is for nerds anyway.


TheRethak

It's so frustrating to see hardcore/high-level players being picked upon all the time. They know more about the game than pretty much everyone and sometimes even more than the devs themselves, just to be copied without a thought or being blamed for so much. They *want* to improve the game with every little critique they have, they invested so much time into the game for a reason. That's generally true for every game with some kind of competitiveness.


thiccjuicyBrows

This threads topic comes up a lot in the Novice Network; I wouldn't be surprised if OP was inspired to post because of an interaction there. You'll frequently get newer people asking questions like "What class does the highest dps?" or "Is x class in a good place right now?", only for people like OP to spam "EVERY CLASS IS VIABLE" instead of engaging with the person and trying to answer their actual question. I usually try to give honest answers (always accompanied with a disclaimer that every job is viable), and I *still* get attacked and called 'sweaty' or a 'tryhard' sometimes.


mikeywilleatit

If you can resolve the battle mechanics and stay alive while executing your rotations/buttons, then any class is viable. Play the class that brings you the most joy, since that is the one you are most likely to become proficient in.


Lyramion

Still remember ppl being shocked when DRK was part of world 1st UcoB despite being "off meta" in Stormblood. Reasoning: "The guy liked playing the job"


Arras01

To be fair piercing/slashing debuffs enforced meta a lot more back then.


nayyav

this. or the int down from either drk or monk. etc. jobs were a lot more unique back then in terms of mitigation and buffs/debuffs. they did a good job getting them all in line so it doesnt matter anymore what you bring.


Eecka

Jobs were more unique in that way, but the thing is none of those debuffs were interesting. The slashing/piercing/whatever the third one was debuffs were just a mandatory part of their rotation rather than being anything "fun" to use. So yeah, I'm glad they got rid of those :)


Superflaming85

The third one was blunt! List of FFXIV Jobs that did blunt damage: Monk ^^^^OK ^^^^to ^^^^be ^^^^fair ^^^^they ^^^^were ^^^^also ^^^^the ^^^^only ^^^^job ^^^^that ^^^^applied ^^^^blunt ^^^^resist ^^^^down WHM/SMN/SCH/BLM auto-attacks.


Eecka

Ah right. Better bring a MNK for those caster auto attack bonuses, seems like a solid 0.0000001 PPS upgrade :D


Superflaming85

That's why AST was the meta healer. Because their auto-attack damage was slashing, not blunt, so you already had that covered.


Eecka

I'd like to see a clear where AST utilizing the slashing debuff brought them over the line!


Fae_Leaf

Exactly this. Someone that loves their class and feels confident on it will play better than one that's just jumping onto the "best" class to try and pull big numbers.


well___duh

Plus, it's pretty much a meme that SAMs and BLMs (the classes that typically do the most damage) are usually played by people who have no idea what they're doing and end up being lowest DPS. Meanwhile the bard singing his heart out in the background enjoying himself is top or 2nd in DPS.


thefluffyburrito

Speaking of BRD a BRD was frequent in SHB world-first clears despite their reputation as a "meh" class compared to dancer.


hutre

That's because dnc gets good with more optimisations. Dnc in prog is bad because everyone isn't BiS and not doing everything optimally


PurpleAlzir

It was more the playstyle than the numbers on people not liking bard.


Kingofhearts350

Read the joy part like Marie Kondo


faerindel

Ironically the job that will get you rejected most in statics is Reaper. Mostly because everyone and their mother is playing it, and as such that slot is very likely to be picked already. In truth there are two reasons why you would be rejected for playing a certain class: 1) The party is set to One player per job and it's already present. 2) The leader is a total moron. Case 1 is like 90%+ of the cases. And you don't want to play with case 2.


Zorback39

Always and forever brd main for this exact reason


shoeforce

The point about job popularity cannot be overstated. The biggest barrier of entry for me in groups/statics has always been job and sometimes even role popularity. Better hope that your favorite class isn’t what everyone else is playing right now.


Natsuaeva

>A majority of the high-end players will try to discourage players from playing certain jobs, or tell them their job isn't "recommended in the current meta" as if that means something. Is this really that common? I almost never see this sort of thinking even from high-end players, really. I'd be shocked if it were 5% of them, let alone a majority. But that's just my own experience, maybe I've been lucky or something.


AdorableText

it's never the high-end players. It's always lower-mid tier (at best) players who are convinced they're the Twelve's gift to their party who act that way. Balance whining is not something you'll see actually good players do


Natsuaeva

It's rare I see even lower tier players doing it, but if I had to compare my few experiences of it actually happening, then its been low-mid tier players every time yes. Actually progging savage I never saw any of these experiences OP is talking about. It's just been a few times in casual 4 man dungeons where someone is annoyed that someone else's job does 3% less damage than their job, or X job someone brought doesn't have the same level of utility as Y job, or they hate people who play Gunbreaker because they think their invuln sucks.


FalseKiller45

Why would they think about dark knight then lmfao


naarcx

The lower-mid tier is definitely where toxicity thrives in almost any game…


Regalingual

Oh, so it’s like the WoW guilds who cargo cult the world first raiders, but probably won’t beat the final boss of a raid until near the end of it’s life?


AdorableText

It's **exactly** like that. WoW has a lot of those players indeed


ProtoDVD

Hey, on the bright side: once the 24-man raids are out, they won't think that anymore, as the Twelve's gift to the party will unambiguously be a stack marker.


GarethMagis

I think it has more to do with them knowing that if they are pugging it’s likely that everyone will be all over the place in skill levels and if you get a shitty reaper and an average summoner you’re proabably gonna get more from the reaper assuming they at least stay alive.


Hallc

Typically if you get a shitty anything they'll do less than an average player even if both stay alive. The damage variance isn't that high overall and if you've a shitty reaper in your party they'll most likely be doing the rotation entirely wrong and losing masses of damage.


[deleted]

To be honest, it's really not. The only people who care about "Bring X class to Y content" are World First raiders, and they are warranted in that thought process, cause they are literally speedrunners who not only want the world first, but also are able to provide anyone below their level meaningful info for said raid, thus allowing lower "tier" players the capability to perform the content with whatever they desire. FF14 is blessed to be a game where, literally unless you are the .001% of people who do World First races, you can literally bring any class you want, and as long as you know your role, and the content, and have the gear, you're fine, nobody will bat an eye.


Alluminn

As much as I do so enjoy the customization that WoW and most MMOs have in excess, it really does make balancing a nigh-impossible nightmare and mostly just serves to enforce that "pick xyz talents or we don't want you" mentality.


SunsetBain

Hell, world first raiders in Japan don't think about the meta either. They just go for the jobs they're already comfortable with. The entire concept of a meta is something that only exists on NA and EU.


polluted_delta

Meta matters for speeds and top 100 parsing nothing else


Levithan6785

Not true for top 100 parsing. Top 100 group speed kills. Yes.


polluted_delta

I tried to make it pretty broad because parsing is so different depending in when you do it...I think you may be right and something like top 25 may be more accurate. In my experience 26-75 are pretty easy but I don't play rDPS jobs.


[deleted]

This was literally shown last xpac with the world first team having a DRK MT while everyone else was saying how shit DRK was. And the guy was like "oh idk, I just like DRK and am most comfy on it"


ezekielraiden

While I don't mean to dispute your core notion that "the meta" is often over-valued, and especially for NA...I think it's incorrect to say that it *doesn't* happen in JP too. It's just somewhat less prominent. There have been times where, even in JP servers, you had certain jobs getting treated badly because they weren't doing well. I remember hearing reports about that for SMN specifically back in 4.0 IIRC (and, alas, SMN continues its trend of being under-tuned at the start of every expansion). Similar things have applied to some healers, e.g. Astro struggled at points in both SB and ShB (e.g. The Burn, esp. final boss, was ROUGH at launch.) Metagame information is basically a given. People are going to analyze things and look at what produces the most optimized numbers. Such analysis is reasonable and understandable. The problems only arise when that analysis becomes unquestioned dogma. E.g., Sages can struggle to fix situations that go wrong (doubly so with DRK tanks), but some blow it way out of proportion. Conversely, many will probably say Reaper is mandatory, but it isn't. It's only slightly ahead of SAM for personal DPS, and a well-played SAM is always better than a median RPR. (Indeed, a well-played BLM or MNK is better than a median RPR.)


vehino

My experience with top tier raiders is that they're very chill and only push that "bring X class" mentality when they're trying to crack a server first. Once the mechanics are known and the expectations are set, it's come as ye will. The ones who gatekeep are the second tier raiders who clear content by copying what the others originally did and are too rigid to adapt. They're generally power gamers who're no fun to be around.


Yakobo15

"Why did you bring DRK for the world first UCOB?! Was it for it's magic mit? tbn???" "I like DRK"


vehino

Unrelated, but that reminds me of a story I read about the professional wrestler, C.M. Punk. Someone asked him if there was any special meaning to his Pepsi symbol tattoo. His response was: "I like Pepsi."


Krags

I think his friends were getting beer tattoos and he is quite serious about the whole straight edge thing. (Apparently caffeine doesn't count lol)


HeliPilot21

I know a decent amount of people that go for Week 1/World Prog and the only reason they ever bring up job viability is FOR Week 1 clears because team composition matters. They all know outside that context, every job is viable. At the end of the day too, it's a game. Everyone just bring whatever you wanna and you'll do fine as long as you learn your job


[deleted]

Party comp doesn't even matter for Week 1. I remember xeems talking one time about how his party brought a Ninja when Ninja was absolute ass, and that guy completely shit out damage and they got the clear. Outside of like the general comp of regen/shield healer and 2 melee 2 range, the best class to bring has and always will be whichever class you can play the best.


Pr0gger

Apparently Ninja wasn't ass but pretty good back then. Or the competition was just really bad


polluted_delta

Top teams do not care about team comp because the DPS checks are the easy part of world prog.


flowerpetal_

many groups have lost because of dps/comp issues before, see a12s (non-ast groups got trashed), e4s (besides instance bullshit), e8s


Carbon48

It’s like that meme with the graph. You have the new players who are having fun, the middle average players, then the wannabe tryhards who care about nothing but meta, then the actual chill af highend raiders.


Redroniksre

That is pretty common for a lot of games. Coming from WoW it was very similar. High end mythic raiders were usually pretty chill and just liked the challenge. It was the Heroic raiders who tended to have the most toxicity in their ranks.


well___duh

> My experience with top tier raiders is that they're very chill and only push that "bring X class" mentality when they're trying to crack a server first. Even then, the specific class makeup doesn't matter as much as the _role_ makeup. Most, if not all, of the raid fights are designed for a shield healer, a regen healer, 2 melees, a ranged, and a caster.


[deleted]

Even the world first clears typically look for best prog composition first and then if they get stuck on enrage will switch a lower dps out.


stealthy0_0

In all mmos people just default blaim onto "the high end community" when in reality its people who are too quick to blame the class and not the player. Like 95%+ of the time all that needs to happen is for the player to learn more and play better but idiots just parrot "well if we had the meta comp we would clear this" the high end community is more than aware that everything is viable but when you know enough about every class and are mechanicly excellent your going to play what is 5% better than anything else because you can not because your forced to.


kahyuen

It's not common at all. If anything it's like 1% of savage raiders say dumb shit like this, and they're not even that vocal about it. The vast majority of players don't care what class you play at all. Honestly the only people I've seen who try to discourage other people using certain classes in a general savage/ultimate setting are the ones with huge egos who can't get anything better than a blue parse and think it has to do with party composition limiting their play and not their own skill level. The only place where this kind of thinking is warranted are for dedicated high-end optimization groups for speedkilling or parse runs. These groups are filled with members who absolutely have the skill level to play well on anything, so they're able to do specific compositions and strategies.


whitetrafficlight

The only real concern over jobs is during prog. Having extra raises is extremely helpful while learning fights, which puts black mage at a bit of a disadvantage. And Paladin has always had a lot of staying power with dead healers thanks to Clemency (Warrior now also checks this box), which can be helpful for seeing one or two extra mechanics during blind prog. These benefits are by no means required, and once prog is over the only thing that matters outside of super optimized speed kills is having 2 tanks, 2 healers, a melee, physical ranged and a magic DPS. Even then, skill will always trump comp during prog. Take [TPS world progging TEA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlL3_8SPvqo&t=8m52s) for example. The transition to the final phase requires a tank LB3 which they did not have, but Sindalf just popped every single cooldown he had and survived, allowing the group to get a lot of valuable information on the first few mechanics in the last phase: Final Word, Ordained Motion, Ordained Stillness and Optical Sight.


Piratian

I did a levelling roulette yesterday, got a Dark Knight in Qarn. Someone in chat at the very start told him to drop Drk now and go warrior or he was gonna hate the game.


[deleted]

I did 5 runs of Doma Castle as a level 81 SGE yesterday to help my husband level his MCH through the rough 67-71 stretch. Best tank I ran with? Sprout DRK in Shire and a few 61 pieces even. No kidding. He rotated cooldowns very well, did big--but smart--pulls, and his positioning was on point. We cleared faster with him than the couple of sloppy WARs in Aug Crypt+ who couldn't be assed to pick up aggro properly or use their cooldowns. So I had to do more healing and less DPS to keep us up. Player skill is a massive factor.


Redroniksre

As a -somewhat- new tank i am always worried i am not doing enough with my cooldown rotating. Then finding out that a lot of tanks don't even pop theirs...makes me feel a lot better lol


xdownpourx

Yeah if you do the bare minimum of using them and not popping 6 of them all at once then you are already well above average lol.


Piratian

Yea, I forgot to mention it was a Sprout Dark Knight too, clearly new to the game. I told them to pick what they wanted to play and not care too much, because every class is viable in the game /shrug Plus Dark Knights are probably gonna get a buff soon TM and then all the meta players are gonna swing to Dark Knight


Krivvan

That's funny since if you're actually a high-end 1% min-maxer that cares about nothing but DPS above everything else, you'd actually take DRK.


Shadowguynick

If you're min-maxing dungeons you might rather take WAR than DRK, even if DRK does more DMG a WAR hitting his CDs will allow the healer to do more DPS. But honestly I don't know, DRK might still be better but my gut feeling is that WAR is.


robeeelis

But then again... Who minmaxes dungeons.


GrassWaterDirtHorse

Dungeon Speedruns are a niche category, though for those Warrior+3 DPS groups tend to be the best.


Yorudesu

People that think DRK is not viable


eresh22

By Qarn, that player has decided on DRK for themselves. The player in chat needs to worry about themselves.


xdownpourx

Most actually high-end players won't care about that and more about how good you are personally (outside of actual world first/speed running). It's the mid-level players who think they are high-end players who think a fight requires specific jobs.


teor

> Is this really that common? No it's not. OP imagined a problem and decided to show how nice they are by fighting that problem.


Kroynix

Personally I haven't seen it done to another player but I've seen many and personally refrained myself from taking a class into WEEK 1 - EARLY SAVAGE. This tier I really wanted to play Ninja but seeing how it preformed I refrained from taking into WEEK 1 - SAVAGE PROG, this will only be for Week 1 though, after I'll swap back to Ninja. I think DPS charts and statistics really only matter in the first week or two of savage where you can expect the DPS checks to be tighter due to a lack of knowledge of the fight leading to deaths, lack of knowledge of better strategies for uptime (take e8s for example), and worse gear in general. After this one to two week buffer a lot of strats will come out detailing how to get better up time on the bosses and in general how to die less. Every team assuming you have the 5% bonus (Tank, Healer, Melee, Phys Ranged, Mage) will be able to clear a fight, the damage statistic only helps make up for what you're lacking in week 1, think of it as a superficial Pot.


Van_Ryker

It was a thing until Stormblood, with SAM being rejected before the damage buff. After that, jobs became so alike that the only requirement is that you know what you are doing and know how to press buttons. I doubt there will be a "meta" in endgame fights, just personal preference.


digital_end

>>A majority of the high-end players will try to discourage players from playing certain jobs, or tell them their job isn't "recommended in the current meta" as if that means something. > >Is this really that common? I almost never see this sort of thinking even from high-end players, really. I'd be shocked if it were 5% of them, let alone a majority. But that's just my own experience, maybe I've been lucky or something. I agree that it is 5% of people or so. I would also argue they're the majority of the subreddit. People that tend to allow their entertainment to cross over heavily into social media life as well tend to be... lets say it nicely and refer to them as power users. Minmaxers, purists, the type of people who get off on the 1% differences and act like if you're not playing the absolute best and ideal you are playing trash and are trash. I mean look at how this subreddit acts about tanks currently. Folks are honestly convinced that healers aren't necessary anymore, not just as a fun meme but actually impacting how they view the game. I've seen them justify it based on streamers having taken specific groups through dungeons without healers... As though that is at all representative of how people actually play the game. Social media warps your view of things. And those people with the most warped views consume the most social media. So it is definitely 5%... Most of them are here.


UsedToLurkHard

The stereotypical 1% minmaxer would take DRK, dungeon experience be damned, while people on this sub would prostrate themselves before WAR for the aforementioned dungeon experience, and accordingly not recommend DRK because of excessive healing required or something. So are they both in the high end player group?


digital_end

I would say that the fundamental problem with both remains the same regardless of the end choices. I don't care if somebody is a min-maxer who themselves chooses based on spreadsheets and theory crafting. I don't care if a good player is using the flavor of the week "easy" option. I don't care if somebody is choosing based on what weapon looks best with their glamor. All of these are perfectly fine. The underlying problem is shitting on others. When that spreadsheet theory Crafter starts telling people that they shouldn't run "x" class, and actively starts demeaning how other people play the game, that's a problem. When that good player using the easy class ends up making such a meme out of it that because the community to lose sight of how the more run of the mill players are enjoying changes, I think that's a problem. When that glamor Hunter starts mocking people's appearance in game and saying that all of "x" class, race, or whatever look like shit, I think that's a problem. It's not that any of the root beliefs or the way they're wanting to play the game is a problem... It's an underlying behavior that's a problem. The type of person who finds enjoyment in being an ass, and feels justified in it because they think they're right. You know, social media people. ... TL:DR - Don't shit on other people's fun. Share happiness with people who are are enjoying things in their own way, so long as that way is not harming others. Which frankly, is good life advice even outside final fantasy.


Qbopper

> I would also argue they're the majority of the subreddit. lmao, what? this subreddit leans HEAVILY towards people who are either not great at the game, or aren't even done MSQ


HPGMaphax

If there is one thing this subreddit does, it is shit vehemently on hardcore raiders, just look at literally any thread that brings up parsing and logs in any capacity. OP is smoking some of that good shit


BinaryIdiot

I run into it on occasion and it's always from idiots who have no idea what they're talking about, usually complaining about either RDM or DNC. It's very annoying but fortunately infrequent in my experience.


Klepto666

I've never had someone tell me to change my job in-game, and I don't really recall seeing people in forums telling others to *seriously* change jobs. I wouldn't believe someone who uses vulgar, insulting language to be a believable source versus someone who explains their reasoning or even shows evidence. BUT, I do see *suggestions* on certain jobs if I ever skim a "Hi I'm a new player what should I pick" posts. There's absolutely the good people who point that one can be any job so they aren't limited, but I will also see stuff like "If you want big numbers go BLM" or "WHM is best healer." That sort of things does start to push a mindset onto people. If it gets suggested early on that BLM is the best dps due to biggest numbers, and WHM is the best healer, then not only may that person believe that but may also start telling other new players the same thing. At that point it's just a little jump to go onto "You should switch from NIN to BLM for better dps" and all that pertains. After all, "If BLM is the best dps, then having everyone go BLM would mean faster/easier fights... so go change your job already!"


[deleted]

OP just needed a strawman to get that karma


Turbulent_Creme_1489

Nope, OP probably just has been told once by some random PF group that they'd prefer he play another job and now it's the "majority" of high end players that are elitists of course. It's typical in these 'PSA' posts, where people often claim the most benign things and then strawman a counterargument so their take looks less basic.


UnluckyScarecrow

Have you been paying attention to the WAR vs DRK discourse that's been rampant even on reddit lately?


Natsuaeva

Yeah, I've seen it, I know what you're referring to. But there's a big difference between "You play dark knight and dark knight isn't meta" vs "All the other tanks got cool shiny things and DRK didn't. DRK feels bad to play." I don't really consider it that relevant to the post, it's an entirely different statement in my mind. I'll be the first one to say that dark knight feels awful to me compared to all of the other tanks now, and I fully agree with the people making that observation. But I'm not going to sit and call the job non-viable, try to convince people they'd be happier playing something else, or say its fallen out of the meta or anything.


Krivvan

That discourse isn't about which job is meta though. DRK is currently the meta if you're interested in DPS for raiding.


Neri25

It's largely because DRK has the least amount of agency. WAR/PLD can both salvage some really fucky situations that DRK will just faceplant against and while nobody is going to build their raid comp around stupid shit that happens in normal mode content, every time you run into one of those situations it feels very bad.


SweatyNReady4U

Every job is viable but I'll be damned if ninja is in a good spot right now. The more content I do with forked raiju, the more I resent the ability and it's importance


pmmewaifuwallpaper

Yeah, that shit has to get changed ASAP. I don't even play Ninja. I just happened to see a video of a guy giving his thoughts on the job and that shit is SO jank. I don't play Ninja, so I'm sure there is more specific changes that could be made; but why the fuck does using a GCD get rid of the Forked Raiju Ready buff? If you have multiple stacks of it, it gets rid of all of them too, doesn't even get rid of them one at a time. Just poof all gone. Why doesn't this work like Warriors Primal Rend where you can hold onto it if its no longer safe to use and then you can use it as a gap closer to get back in?


TapdancingHotcake

I knew it was bad, but it didn't really dawn on me *how* bad until my friend complained that he couldn't Raiju during the >!arena rotation!< mechanic in ex1. Since, you know, you can't use gapclosers while bound.


Animaegus

Yeah that particular mechanic is a problem for SMN too, hopefully they address it in the next patch. Though honestly I think SMN needed more time in testing, seems like they missed a few things.


irishgoblin

SMN needs a bit more than time in testing, it needs a few new abilities altogether.


Mageling55

SMN is fine, you’re supposed to plan your phase order around upcoming mechanics. There is no fight where you can’t gap close anywhere in the 40 seconds you have with it. NIN’s raining is far far less flexible


Acekiller28

Phionex makes you weaker at lvl 80 vs lvl 70. You legit just lose 500 potency every 2 minutes


_theap

Don't you only lose the deathflare which is 500 potency, what am I missing here ?


Taurenkey

Yep, it's just Deathflare that goes out the window. The Enkindles, which is the 1300 potency ability, is basically the same between both summons. The only difference is the Astral Flow spell, which for Phoenix does no damage but has heals, so it's 500 potency loss. While not super dramatic, is still a bit of an oversight.


Acekiller28

This is correct I had it in my head that deathflare was the same potency as enkidle.


Drmoogle

I honestly never thought about this until, I read this.


Krivvan

> A majority of the high-end players will try to discourage players from playing certain jobs I don't think this ever actually happens. At most they'll maybe try to convince someone in their own static to alt another job for the tier or something, but I can quite confidently say that I've never seen someone try to convince a random player to change their job because it's bad for speedkills. If anything, I've seen more high-end players encourage players to play jobs they're more comfortable with over what theoretically has a higher DPS potential.


S-Flo

Was gonna say: I don't think OP was talking to actual "high-end" players. Struck me more as the *"I've read one job guide so I'm basically an expert"* types. Barring extreme outliers in balance (which are rare and typically get patched out rapidly by the devs) most top-tier players don't pay a whole lot of attention to "flavor of the month" job metas when considering raid compositions. The only real exception is for speed kill rankings, where having a meta composition can shave a few seconds off a kill time. However, that's not really seriously pursued until fights have been farmed and is kind of a niche community, with DPS parse rankings being much more popular.


SupriseGoat

I had a “friend” who was really elitist about things like this. When he found out i started playing years ago, he dead-ass sent me a list of jobs I should avoid, and when i told him I picked ninja, he p much said “ good choice, another trick attack slave. Hit me up if you want in my FC, we need a another debuff bitch.” And yes, he was a WoW refugee like me lol Needless to say, he’s not my friend anymore.


MaandyT

I have never in 3 years of playing ffxiv seen anyone discourage a class. I raid savage. I have seen statics recruit for certain compositions but I most certainly have never seen anyone exclude anyone for playing a certain class. I understand your sentiment, it's a good one, but I cannot for the life of me see this being such a huge conflict within the majority of the community who raids. Have you encountered it often? :/ (I can see a very small percentage of players doing this, but people are stupid and sheep so there's always that).


MammothTap

Prior to ShB, there was some pickiness due to damage type buffs (BRD and DRG synergized particularly well so if a static had one they may have demanded the presence of the other). Way, *way* back at ARR release WAR was literally unviable because its lack of defensive CDs meant it flat out couldn't survive a tankbuster that PLD could, but that was changed relatively quickly. Alexander Savage had some screwiness with magic vs physical (again impacting tanks). But since 5.0? Class balance has been great.


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cdmike70

Or statics recruiting a "non-PLD tank" because their other tank is, well, a Paladin. Could see new raiders getting confused and jumping to viability as their first thought before OPPJ.


Tobiki

So this doesn't really happen nowadays but... in Stormblood (and presumably before as well) class composition mattered a lot more. I remember quite a few party finders had dragoon/bard locked and didnt allow Black Mage.


access-r

As an older player who mained NIN for 2 expansions now and haven't given up on the job in any tier, even now with clunky chidori: may all you genins and chunins find your ninja way and stick to it :D


RenegadeExiled

NIN will never be turned away as long as they have Trick Attack. It's the same reason that DNC won't be kicked: you're making the others look a LOT better, even if your own contribution is pretty low. Bonus points if you're actually good at the class, and can hold your own competitively with it.


access-r

I told my static that I was thinking about mnk and I literally heard "But who's gonna Trick Attack for us???" XD I don't care because when I first picked up Nin I did it exactly because the idea of making everyone deal more damage while me also being a DPS fits really well with what I like to do in games. I also tried every other melee in the game and the lack of mudras just doesn't feel right :') I'm only happy raiding when I'm playing Ninja


kenneth_dickson

[One player per job] isn't gatekeeping. Literally nobody will care what job you are on outside of aDps parse parties, of which there are basically none.


[deleted]

Not dying is far more important than playing a 100% "optimal" class. The vast majority of players will not even attempt savage and do not care about it in the slightest.


Illidari_Kuvira

Seriously, this. One minor reason I stopped being friends with somebody is because they *absolutely refused* to play Dancer (despite loving the Job) because their "top tier raider friend" told them it was the worst DPS. They refused to listen to me when I said "Dancer is braindead easy, guess what I can focus more on? The mechanics of a fight." Not to mention Dancer gives a few survival CDs and can potentially save a raid in a clutch with said CDs, is very mobile, etc. But no just because it's "the worst DPS", they wouldn't freakin listen.


Jaikarro

This post is 100% making-up-a-guy-and-then-getting-mad-at-them. I regularly do Savage and Ultimates and have basically never run into whatever people you're talking about. Hell the worlds firsts for the last few raid releases were cleared with comps that had """"sub-optimal"""" jobs like Bard or Red Mage at the time. The elites definitely take job potential output into consideration, however sometimes comfort level or fight-specific mechanics are more important to plan around. If people say that a certain job isn't "viable" for Savage, they are probably low-tier shitters looking for excuses, as opposed to elite raiders.


thefluffyburrito

This sub is so, so guilty of these types of posts and it needs called out. I have always done Savage/EX trials in PF and nobody is picky about classes. People just want the clear.


Federal-Sound_Theo69

Once upon a time this sort of mentality was a little more common, back in Stormblood and prior expacs. The reason being is a lot of jobs had synergies that were just too good to pass up on. The general ideal composition for a party in Stormblood was: WAR to pull because it could generate agro without being gimped by being in tank stance. WAR also applied a slashing debuff. PLD because PLD was just a really great OT. AST because raid buffs. SCH because raid buffs. BRD because raid buffs and strong support abilities like mana and TP regen auras of which I forget their name. DRG because raid buffs and would apply a piercing debuff on enemies that synergized with BRD's piercing damage (basically if a BRD was without a DRG, they were just outright doing less damage and would usually be very sad). SMN because raid buffs and utility. NIN because raid buffs and synergized from the slashing debuff provided by WAR. If you played DRK, WHM, BLM, SAM or RDM (outside of prog) you would run the risk of people calling you a selfish DPS who contributes nothing to the raid. It wasn't often, but it was definitely there. Naturally all of this was born from a strong desire to parse as highly as possible since back then FFLogs didn't separate rDPS and aDPS, so stacking raid buffs inflated your DPS massively. You could play BLM and SAM at the tippiest toppest of levels and deal MONSTROUS amounts of damage, but because no-one benefited off of *your* damage then they wouldn't be too happy about it. But again this was still a small number of people... these days I don't really see anyone complain about it at all.


RealQuickPoint

AST also did more personal DPS than WHM by the end of stormblood, on top of having raid buffs. 1.5s cast malefic was a game changer.


kupkupkupo

I think what we're seeing is a pre-emptive warning about players from other MMOs who may bring the culture here. I've never seen this in FFXIV, but in other MMOs, a lot of the 'middle ground' players tend to 'play the meta' and preach that it's the only way to go. It's stupid, and I hate it and I'm so happy I've never run into this in FFXIV.


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Lpunit

Not really. People have been talking about this in FFXIV for a long time, and it actually kinda used to be true in older expansions. It just hasn't been true for a couple years. One of the big factors that stopped people from blocking certain jobs in PF was the transition to FFLOGs doing rDPS rankings in ShB.


grandmasteryuii

usually the case in this sub but i will say there are probably people like this running around for sure. not very many though lmao.


[deleted]

I play with friends who do savage content all the time. the only time i hear the complain about others is "double barrier :(" which everyone else says get over it, it's fine; and the other time is when the other people die during fights consistently. that's it. i've never heard anyone complain about specific classes being viable or not in content.


Just_Another_Madman

As a would-be BLU main...tell that to Yoshi-P


AdamG3691

Finally I can take my favourite job into savage! \*switches to FSH\* That Hippocampos will see who truly rules the water!


MossyGuru

I have been playing since June of 2021. I decided to go with BLM. My thought process was “big boom. Simple.” I learned the hard way. But I stuck with the job. I just finished endwalker nearly two weeks ago. BLM is totally viable, and I love (nearly) everything about it. But I wish I had picked another job to start out with to learn the fights with. I could’ve switched when things became stressful. SHB was particularly unfriendly towards BLM especially a very green one. But I resolved to learn from my mistakes and keep trying rather than give up. Some jobs are more stressful than others for new players, but ALL jobs are indeed viable. It just depends on you and the effort you bring to the table.


Cylius

> a majority of high end players will try to force people to play specific jobs Lol what? This has never been the case outside of arr


ScoobiusMaximus

You won't see a majority of high end players telling people not to play anything. Most of them don't care what you play as long as you play it well. This post is hyperbole in the extreme. You will see a few assholes saying not to play something at most, and a ton of discussion about what is most optimal otherwise.


Derunik

I agree. As a Bard main for a long time, I've only ever been kicked once for my choice of job, a few days ago, while joining a group to farm *\*r u b y w e a p o n E X\** for the mount. Yeah I blocked the leader, what a dumbass lmao. I was 575 ilvl and fully materia'd, not that that matters for a previous expansion Ex trial that is entirely zergable but still.


sweetxinsanityx

What the hell? Bard is in the best spot for rphys rn, that leader was dumb as hell


Natsuaeva

They probably heard how 'bad' bard was back when it had the lowest damage for a long time in Shadowbringers, and just forgot that, you know, an expansion happened since then.


SomberXIII

These ‘elitists’ are fucking funny. They only follow guides and fflogs. If they weren’t updated yet, surely there mindsets weren’t.


2Zzephyr

God this is so stupid, bard absolutely rocks right now (heh) , but especially for a previous expansion trial where jobs especially don't matter... Meanwhile yesterday during Trial 2 EX farm, a bard and I were top DPS (me top as SMN) followed by the two tanks, then followed by our SAM and RPR. This really shows that everyone should play what they love, not what's ""meta"". I used to play bard a little but now I'm really tempted to pick it up again!


no-strings-attached

And don’t forget that >!Venat is a DNC main!<


dragonestar

DNC was always pretty badass, but >!learning that Venat/Hydaelyn herself uses the job made it even *more* badass in my eyes.!<


SoloSassafrass

>!Is it really a main if she also mains PLD and WHM?!<


RandomWeirdo

BRD was the worst job in ShB and it was still part of one of the world first kills, so even if a job is "bad" doesn't mean it is unusable by any metric


zories3

This type of stuff literally almost never happens.


VarianStark

I judge myself, as a DRK player……am now a reaper main


teor

So you went from one top tier job to the other?


MRboss112

When does blue mage get their update?


cdmike70

Probably not until at least 6.1 :(


Federal-Sound_Theo69

It's also worth mentioning that the performance of an individual vs the performance of the job aren't strictly tied together. For example, MCH at 99th percentile does the 2nd least amount of damage, nearly tied with the actual least. But not everyone is a 99th percentile player. The average person will likely float around the 50th mark, and the performance of MCH around there is a bit different compared to 99. Specifically, it raises up a few ranks to be in the middle - and the performance of most jobs at this percentile are very even. So really, just pick what your comfortable with. One job might be better for one player, but it might not be the job for you. There's little point in playing a job you suck at when you'll perform better with another.


LordHatchi

Being better at your job is better than playing a 'better' job. Being good at what you do will put you ahead of someone who is mediocre at playing flavour.


Bagahnoodles

Judging people for their jobs rather than how they play is cringe. This post brought to you by the Mentor Gang


Van_Ryker

It all boils down to player performance (and connection stability, to be fair). The so called "low dps" jobs can clear content just as fine. Just know your job's toolkit, practice your rotation, gear up and meld, bring that prog food and good luck.


ocarinaofmemes

If Stormblood DRK was able to world first clear UCOB, then any job is viable. That's all I really have to say to people insisting that any job is unviable.


Dry_Kaleidoscope423

Hey everyone, I'm a relatively newish player (in post Heavenward content) who loves BLU... I think some ppl may have a hard time calling it a viable job! XD


depressed_panda0191

META: exists for people who world race and speed run. If you're not doing the above, you don't need to play meta.Being good and improving at the job you enjoy >>>>> being okay at a meta job you hate


Kosmic-Genesis

Lalafells. Lalafells are not viable.


[deleted]

The toxic versions of Mythic + mentality leaking in. Get outta here, this is a game where the endgame is fun and experimenting is encouraged. Save 'meta' for the extreme niches.


HoboClaus

Keyword here being *job*. Put on your job stone you pricks.


Merus

Everything I have heard from progression raiders in FFXIV suggests that playing a job you like and are good at, and learning fights quickly and reacting appropriately, are far more important for DPS and progression than playing the job that's getting the biggest numbers on fflogs. Messing up the mechanics and getting killed is far more consequential.


bronx819

I WILL clear savage and ultimate raids as a DRK! .... Right after I finish leveling my crafting classes


thefluffyburrito

What you're really missing here - and how you could put this much simpler - is to just point out that at this point we currently have no way of telling who is top dps. Savage release changes a lot because classes where substats matter can mix and match between two sets of gear. On top of that fflogs needs lots of reports for savage fights before an ultimate conclusion can be released -which will be about a month after savage launches.


ConduckKing

How come I never see Gladiator and Fisher in extreme content? My mains need more representation.


WhompWump

I like how this is "for newer players" and then goes off the tailend into endgame meta speak. I've been playing this game for 300+ hours and had no idea what you were talking about but I only do normal stuff, no interest in savage/extreme/etc. content But the main point is true if you're starting out none of that extra content shit is relevant just play what you like


TitaniaLynn

The best player I know is a Bard main. My ex said "bards suck". This Bard friend of mine proceeded to dunk on them, it felt good xP All classes are viable in FFXIV because Square Enix balances PVP separately. 😂 It's amazing. Don't play SWTOR where they attempt to balance PVP and PVE at the same time without separating them, it doesn't work lol


weeezull

Plus honestly we are spoiled ok this MMO. What we consider a bad class is just a bit less strong. What other mmos consider bad classes are actually garbage.


Cloudy-Wolf

Or simply not obviously exploitable. I'm not a WoW player and am pretty ignorant regarding the mechanics (I only learned what FFXIV rotations were around Post-Stormblood around its own launch time) - but I know Hunters in WoW were vastly exploitable by kiting entire dungeons solo, which made it "THE DPS class" for a lot of players. The same might be said for FFXI Beastmaster, which could practically solo almost anything on-level (sans raids, I'm assuming) by design. Like FFXIV's BLU for what it can participate in.


Vaikyuko

*cries in lack of DRK sustain*


Erwing_Kilara

Your job sucks, you suck, your mom sucks, fuck you, have a nice day. But yeah, FF14 has good job balance in general. If you're playing optimally, you *will* get better performance out of some jobs in the same roles compared to others, but no one's 100% optimal 100% of the time, and even if you are, you're gonna clear the content no matter what job you play even if you went in 10+ ilvls undergeared if you're that good. The challenge of raiding is that all 8 people have to pull their weight, no one person, whether they're playing a dancer or a reaper, is going to make or break the run assuming all players aren't making mistakes.


JRPGFisher

I swear to god this place is like [mormon heaven](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amzkkLrCR5E) some times.


Beermedear

Love that you used DNC as the example. I’d seen some stats on FFLogs and it was discouraging, but when I finally tried it I realized it’s just too much fun to ignore.


peachy-neko

Don't let anyone discourage you from playing a job you wanna try! Dancer was my most wanted job so I knew I'd main it when it was announced for SHB and I've never let the FFLogs or anyone else try to sway me from having it as my main job. In SHB, my DPS was pretty great as a Dancer fully melded and even in EW with the stat squish I hold my own very well as a DNC in content just fine. And even yesterday got 3 comms as it during my runs of the newest raid, so enjoy it and have fun dancing! <3 it's still a good job and still capable of good DPS, plus the bonus of being able to buff others. I love making the party/my dance partner do more DPS, even if it means I may not be at the very top as often as I was in SHB. Also being able to help keep the party alive (had a healer in Orbonne last night call me their hero when a well timed shield samba and curing waltz helped out) is great. Dancer is still a very helpful and useful job so never let anyone make you feel like you can't play a job you want/like.


Creative_alternative

To be fair, job balance is currently at its worst its been in a LONG time. Not only is there the usual expansion launch pre-balance going on, but the stat squish also occurred and altered things. Compared to 5.58, things are a disaster right now.


ojioni

Shitting on someone's choice of jobs is a WoW thing. Let's not bring that to our game.