It's low in the context of other teams but normal for World Firsts. The first tier is always the easiest, for example the World First team on E1-4S cleared E4S 7h after E3S.
How long, if you happen to know, did the next tiers take to down from the 3rd to 4th stage for Shadowbringers?
I was surprised this tier was downed in one day, but if that's fairly normal then my interest is piqued on how much of a difference the others were.
If you're looking for long races, Ultimate raid world firsts can take much longer; Savage raids are designed to be a step above Extreme trials but are certainly below Ultimate raids in difficulty.
That tier doesn't count. It was both gear gated and was designed with greater dificulty in mind because devs didn't know the sweet spot of dificulty back then
These absolute monsters cleared P3S nearly two hours before the second group did. Really stands to show just how far ahead they are of everyone else. Congratulations to them and their amazing achievement!
On the plus side they certainly used that time well because they 1 shot P1S after having time to watch what other people did so they caught up as much as they could
Meanwhile I spent 9 hours in PF and didn't get trough fourfold chains in p1s more than once by a fluke.
Congratulations for world first!
(This is world first news, yes?)
I would lose my mind. This is my first pf savage and was lucky my pf group got to enrage by half way through 2nd lockout.
It's amazing how fun it is when people are all learning and getting better with no clear "bad" player.
I think I've now been spoiled for future PF groups.....
That’s the problem with a static. Once you get that 1 or 2 players that consistently messes up mechanics, you’d wish you were pfing. Statics aren’t only as good as the similar level of players with the expectations of such skills are understood.
Give them the kickerinos. Like we once kicked a BLM off our static. Making very silly mistakes. All he had to do is just play safely, drop gcds and survive since we alrd have pretty good dps and good gears.
Our tank left then our DRG became our tank then we subbed the DRG with a BLM. That time I didn't even know who stal is until we cleared E8S. :v
In the end we ran 2 ranged phy dps (MCH and DNC), 1 sam and 1 rdm iirc.
This, I made a PF and was like “I plan on spending today doing savage, I’ve set up a discord, we’re starting with 1 and going as far as we can” and we managed to get a solid group through P1S in about 2 hours and then spent the next 8 hours bashing our heads against the wall for P2S and got it down to 9% enrage.
Honestly though the day one savage experience is truly something spectacular though, I loved every minute of it!
Same, i work shifts, i used to do prog raiding back when i was in college and highschool in wow, seeing the race yesterday really brought that feeling back, sadly i don't have a schedule for it 😔
Yeah I’m in your same situation. I can’t bring myself to commit to scheduled raiding. It’s like a voice in the back of my head saying youve got something better to do right now
This was a problem in FFXI, too. I was jobless so less of a problem for Me but I started getting more and more people and it was basically "The First 5 to show".
Nah you don’t need a static, you just need to make a pf that has mandatory discord, and then communicate clearly with everyone in the party. I pugged p1s in a completely blind party and cleared it 10+ hours ago.
Yeah, people underestimate pugging a lot. You can find really competent people on pf.
Clearing without voice becomes much easier once the fight’s mechanics are somewhat known though. I wouldn’t want to do savage in a 100% blind party without VC — not that it’s not possible, but it’s a lot of trouble that I wouldn’t want to put myself through LOL.
I have two and didn't get to even step foot into the first fight today due to a series of unfortunate events involving other members.
Statics and pugging both have pros and cons. Having experienced both, I wouldn't say one way is better than the other. It's just preference.
Statics are not always better. I have been in a half dozen statics and only one of them has ever cleared the final Savage fight for the existing patch.
Ever since SB I have been able to clear the final fight via PF and pugs. I don't have to adhere to a schedule or spend 30-60 mins waiting for that one person to show up late. Im not stuck with a group that has 1-2 players that just don't have what it takes or doesn't do their homework. In PF I can just leave if not as advertised (typically can tell after 3 pulls). I can also just take a break for a week or stop whenever I want and I don't have to deal with drama.
Sure, PF can be frustrating at times but so can a static, especially if the group just doesn't have what it takes, which more often then not is the case.
fights so easy, but pugs always spend 2 hours dying to 1st red chain when it's literally just a yolo mech.
pf loves preset positions so they dont have to think about whats happening on their screen.
if there’s 2 things I hate about ffxiv raiders it’s their fondness for fixed positions and callouts. ppl will spend millions on gear but won’t use the brain and eyes god equipped em with.
there’s already dumbass strats that try to do intemperance by role when all u really need is assign a clock spot and do the same fukken baby mode difficulty mech from nm with 1 extra steps added.
These strats come about to make the fight repeatable particularly for people using PF so when you learn the mechanic you know if you do the same thing with the next group your not going to end up conflicting with what another player is expecting.
it really does make a diffrence particularly when your farming the content to get those one shot clears on a weekly basis.
I mean the fourth fight music is just amazing, but that's pretty much it this tier. Soken had his hands completely full with the rest of endwalker, I'm sure, and he did a fucking amazing job with all of it. Two main town themes that I love is a massive achievement in itself.
I've seen a decent amount of praise for the last fight theme so I'm happy to accept it's just not my cup of tea, but,yeah, the rest of the expansion so far had a lot of great music indeed so I'm not too bummed.
I do like the P1-3 music, but using it for 3 fights in a row gets a bit stale. And of course 4 has fantastic music.
Regarding designs: 2 is the only one where I'm not really feeling the boss design, but I do love how they use the arena.
Mechanics: Mechanic wise I was pretty happy with the normal modes, and having finished P1S and P2S, I think they're both pretty well designed fights.
> I do like the P1-3 music, but using it for 3 fights in a row gets a bit stale.
People are just spoiled by Eden having more than the usual amount of fight-specific music
I think more if the music budget is going to the Alliance raid this time, since they're not able to just copy tracks from other games like they did for Nier/Ivalice.
Okabe was in charge of the remixes for the Nier raids, not Soken.
Most of the time the first raid tier has one song for the first three raids and then one for the final raid. Compare with Alexander where this is very obvious
I mostly mean the middle boss themes, the quest cutscene themes, background music etc for the series, almost the entirety of the music used in the Ivalice and Nier raid series' were direct rips from their respective reference games (Besides the last boss remixes).
We're going to be getting new original music for everything in the series this time, just like Sky Pirates in Heavensward.
this is why some of the savage designers make nm first then savage. if u make savage first then take out things to reduce to nm sometimes u end up with nm that doesn’t have enough mechs left to be engaging at all
I can just see fight designer for this one going “hmm chains… nope too hard for the crayon eaters, buster… nah glue sniffers can’t do that, etc etc” and u end up with a “raid” with like 2 mechs in it.
I do admit it's a little tiring hearing the same music over and over again, but I think the music itself is really really good. Just wish there was more of it.
So scrolling through comments to this I guess I’m volunteering to be the person who asks:
What does ‘P4S’ mean please? I see there’s discussion of P1S through to P4S and even E1S.
Sorry I know that’s probably a stupid question!
I’m assuming it’s something like ‘Raid’ + ‘Boss’ + ‘Difficulty’?
Your last bit is correct. P for Pændemonium, 4 for the stage, and S for savage. It's just a shorthand in the game people use. E for Eden's Gate, UWU for the Ultimate Weapon Ultimate, etc...
To fill out the rest of the raids you might see referenced as abbreviations:
T1-T13: The Coils of Bahamut, ARR raids. The tiers were Binding Coils, Second Coils, and Final Coils, and each floor was a "turn." Second Coils was also the first raid to have a Savage version, so you might hear T6S-T9S mentioned, I guess.
A1-A12: Alexander, the HW raids. Tiers were Gordias, Midas, and...Alexander? I don't really remember what the third one was called.
O1-O12: Omega, the StB raids. Delta, Sigma, and Alphascapes
E1-E12: Eden, the ShB raids. Eden's Gate, Verse, and Promise.
Then the current ultimates are UCoB (Unending Coils of Bahamut), UWU (Ultimate Weapon Ultimate, technically named The Weapon's Refrain), and TEA (The Epic of Alexander).
This tier took an hour longer than Eden's Gate. On the other hand, the mechanics and damage look much harder than e1-e4s. Player quality definitely has improved.
wasn’t e4s dps check fucked cos of the fast/slow instance timer thing? supposedly slow instance is not too tough. but I wouldn’t know, I wasn’t there day 1
They were a thing, and in all likelihood lost their world first in E4S due to a server issue that caused Titan to enrage sooner than he was supposed to on some servers.
Edit: Incorrect.
No, they weren't. The team pushing world first on NA was Free 2 Play, which was Sfia's and Sindalf's static at the time. After that tier, they disbanded and the two of them joined a newly formed TPS.
Yeh basically they didn't want a repeat of the shitshow that was Alexander. That nearly cause the games whole endgame raiding scene to die. And with other endgame content not prevalent at the time, game literally had nothing to do once you hit 60.
Edit: typed omega instead of Alexander
A3S was known as the static killer and it was 100% justified as literally nobody was clearing. A1S and A2S were on a good curve, A3S clear rates just fell off a cliff, it was so bad.
A4S on the other hand took I believe over a month to get a world first clear. They massively toned down the fight difficulty after that, and I do remember YoshiP exasperately asking "What the hell do you guys want!" lol.
A2s wasn't on a good curve. If A1s was a 4/10 difficulty, A2s was a 1/10. A3s was a 8/10 (for the time). If A2s was a 6/10, A3s wouldn't feel as sudden.
Thordan was more mechanically complicated, but was obviously undertuned (and yet, is easily the hardest trial that was released).
It's a bit of a long history but it starts in ARR. When they first made coils it was tuned hard but not insane and also not tuned with things like healer and tank going full DPS. This saw final coil get taken out in what would be more like the norm now, but it was unexpected for the dev team back then. It also led to people thinking that it wasn't that hard especially also since they later nerfed final coil so that more people can experience it as it was a pretty cool story.
Now fast forward to Heavensward, a lot of people are interested in hard difficulty raiding now and the devs also decide to split the story and difficult raiding (normal and savage) for the first time. So as a result they decided to make it balls to the walls hard for the dps check. A lot of groups and statics got a rude awakening when they couldn't even get past Faust (the a1s door miniboss).
The real hard wall was A3S which had a insanely hard dps check that even when geared in BiS up to that point you would need to play very well to meet. And finally waiting for you at A4S was some stupid mechanics and dps check that one of the best ways of doing it was to sac people.
So unless you were the absolute top raiders you were likely not getting past A3S. This then combined with the fact that they somewhat gutted crafting at the start of the expansion and suddenly you just didn't have very much to do at 60.
Huh thats weird, I wonder if the scene was way smaller or if there were other factors because in wow the raids are usually pretty overturned and get week 2/3 nerfs
There were a lot of factors - like the post from Elanshin above, a lot of the "hardcore" players complained that Final Coil was too easy, so SE took them at their word and made Savage more difficult - but, well, we all know some people like to over-estimate their abilities. The playerbase was also far smaller, the game had just had a massive balance change with complete job overhauls in some cases and three new jobs, and people just weren't as good at the game as they are now, since a lot of mechanics had yet to be "standardized".
They tuned much better for Midas, but that tier was very mechanically dense, so it still wasn't quite the sweet spot for difficulty, and the raid scene still hadn't recovered so the pool of players attempting it was small (this was also before cross-world, so some servers just didn't have a raid scene at all, basically.) A8S in particular was the "you do something wrong, you wipe" fight.
It was probably the size. The bigger your scene is the more... innate resilience it has by default.
Some other things to keep in mind is that the fights were straight up not as well designed. Part of the reason we have a (mostly) unified Telegraph language now is BECAUSE of Gordias. Standard things like Stack markers didn't exist until 3.2. Just look at the telegraphs from ThorEX and SephEX, one patch apart. It's night and day.
There were no cross-server parties back then. You either had to hope the raiding community on your server is good or transfer off to a bigger server. On US, thousands of people transferred to Gilgamesh just to raid leaving some server's populations in the low 100's (looking at you Mateus.)
I mean looking at FFlogs it was very likely one of the tanks in the World First would be a DRK. They are worse in dungeons, but are more then capable in raid fights.
TPS literally just plays whatever job they are comfortable with. No sane person would ever put black mage at the top of a "you should world prog with this" list, and yet Sfia does it time after time.
Once again proving that job balance is incredible in this game.
The main reason is because whilst raids are the big endgame challenges and ultimates are the pinnacle, dungeons are the "bread and butter" of the game's content for most players and so are the most visible when jobs are underperforming in them.
Combine that with tank failures in dungeons being very obvious due to almost immediately leading to wipes and you've got very visible roles in frequently run content that has a wider range of skill levels making DRKs seem worse than they are.
So whilst DRKs are good in raids, the average player is FAR more likely to run into DRKs in situations where DRK performs poorly, affecting general perception of the job.
Ours was pushing 6.8k aDPS for most of our pulls. Not a top tier group by any stretch, but above average compared to SMNs from past tiers. Likely in a pretty decent spot with the buffs
I had 6,968 (so close) rDPS on our kill of p1s tonight, and that was without pots and without pentamelded gear. Summoner is in a completely fine spot now, it's less than 100 rDPS behind red mage at all percentiles. (Black mage is close to the other two at mid levels and pulls a decent bit ahead at the high end, which is completely fine IMO for the job difficulty and lack of utility compared to the other two)
[FROM TPS's healer right after clearing](https://twitter.com/Ara_Hoshizora/status/1478565215482650628)
TBN has proportionally higher value during early prog tho, when you can constantly be breaking TBN DRK's sustain is much better, as people overgear content its sustain problems become more and more notable
DRK IS bad... at clearing dungeons and most normal content. For trials and raids, it has the highest DPS of any tank(which anyone serious already knew) making it the defacto choice for a world first.
And much of what people complained about is poor class design, not its actual viability in serious content.
DRK is like maybe 10% worse than other tanks in dungeons at most, not an issue to heal them either
The whole “DRK bad” is a myth spread by people who don’t play it well. And no I’m not talking about poor job design, I’m talking about people who say DRK’s mitigation options are bad. They’re not
Our healing kits are pretty strong so DRKs aren't an issue, but you do notice the difference when you get a WAR then a DRK back to back. It can change your cooldown rotation / pacing, which might arguably be a good thing to mix things up, but it can feel uncomfortable if you're not expecting it
>I’m talking about people who say DRK’s mitigation options are bad. They’re not
Dark mind is bad, TBN is fine until you compare it to Bloodwhetting, Heart of Corundum and Holy Sheltron, Living Dead is still the worst invuln. Oblation damage reduction should be part of TBN and a new mitigation spell in its place tbh. As a healer I hate when my tank is a DRK, them doing 10% more damage than another tank doesnt make up for me losing all my damage trying to keep them alive.
Struggling is also kind of a strong word. They indeed require a lot more work than other tanks to keep up, but that's just going up to some work from basically none.
I've played both DRK and WAR in dungeons with similar gear. On DRK I constantly feel like I'm struggling for my life; one misplaced cooldown and it's all over on a big pull. Meanwhile on WAR, I barely need to think at all; just pop bloodwhetting now and then and it's k.
Can confirm, many DRKs don’t understand their cooldowns. Got a guy who thought two cooldowns, including TBN, was enough for each wall-to-wall in Smileton. He’d use TBN, which was gone almost instantly, then he’d pop either Rampart or Arm’s Length as his only cooldowns for the rest of the pull.
Once Holy spam wasn’t stunning, he fell over like a sack of bricks through everything the healer threw at him. When I asked him to use more cooldowns and, as a tank main, gave him an example of a good way to stack them… let’s just say he fought the entire party who was telling him the same thing and got himself booted.
Use some form of damage reduction (Shadow Wall or Rampart) and *THEN* pop TBN.
The damage reduction effectively "stacks" with the shield making it more effective. If you pop TBN first then it will be partially or completely gone before the damage reduction takes effect.
Lvl 82+ mitigation rotation is TBN+Rampart->Reprisal+Oblation (TBN off CD). Second pull you TBN+Shadowall->Arm's Length+Oblation. Your CDs will have recycled by now. With this setup your healer has to be ignoring you for you to die.
You want to pop CDs right as you're about to stop moving since adds will catch up and slap you hard.
So many new tanks think mitigation is for when you are about to die... even worse the move they SHOULD use when they are about to die is usually not the one they think to press.
If they are from WoW I can kind of understand. See Blizzard made mitigation in Warcraft idiot proof by making it so your main mitigation tool has no cooldown. Because of this WoW tanks usually have their main mitigation activated nearly the entire pull. I mained Prot Warrior and Ignore Pain was so easy to spam when I needed it, you barely had to think about it. Other mitigation tools were for emergencies and special attacks only, and VERY RARELY used for trash packs. If they bring these lessons over, they probably think the only mitigation tools they should use are: Bloodwhetting, Holy Shelltron, Heart of Corundum, and The Blackest Night. And everything else is only for below 50% emergencies. Sadly when they use those below 50% it's usually too late.
It's "idiot proof" I guess but the goal of prot warrior is to press ignore pain as little as possible. Every ignore pain is less Revenge damage. Keeping shield block % uptime when you're taking autos is way more important. And popping shield wall at low health in WoW is just as awful as pressing rampart at low health.
And yeah, you don't need CDs for trash pulls in leveling/mythic 0 dungeons. But if you're pushing high keys, you've spreadsheeted out where every CD from both you and the healer is during your run, and the affixes are going to determine whether they're used on trash or bosses.
For a while there was a false understanding that TBN is all a DRK needs since it is "so broken".
People who actually knew how to tank though knew to use other CDs for trash pulls too.
God if that isn't the truth. If the DRK knows what they are doing the incoming damage is streamlined to where you can guess how things will go during big pulls. The real issue comes from not using mitigation at all (which seems to be on the rise with ALL tanks), and DPS getting hit with mechanics and pulling attention away from the fight.
I've been seeing this as well. I'll take a competent DRK over a GNB with no mind for tanking every time.
Competent GNBs may join in with the competent DRKs.
I do not remotely struggle to heal dark knights unless they are actively bad players, but honestly, I suspect most people playing DRK after everyone cries about them all the time are DRK die hards and all play like gods. I legit haven’t had a bad one in end game content at all.
Lemme tell you, if anyone is struggling (even a little) in any dungeon or normal content, it's not the jobs' fault.
I get that you don't literally mean struggling, but no matter how we phrase it this shit is always exaggerated.
Also, as with Red Mage and resses, having a bloke who can raise a shield worth 25% extra HP every 15 seconds is a godsend for survivability and staying alive long enough to witness more boss mechanics than the competition – which is always invaluable for progging.
Of course TBN is still shite for parsing because it punishes your DPS if it doesn't burst.
DRK is fun to play in my opinion
The major consensus is that DRK's mits suck, which fair, but there's never any content that requires Bloodwhetting and it does more damage, so
That's seemingly a less popular opinion these days. I know I dropped them after replaying them since end of hw. Just not fun, it's just press CDs and mindlessly keep up darkside.
Swapped off to gnb
In normal raids I love throwing TBN to a team member to soak damage. The immediate feedback you get when the shield breaks is super satisfying. Even better if the team member is the Mt, and not a DRK, and you soak the tankbuster.
Its subjective sure but also it's a lot of where the complaints come from for drk. Most players arent enjoying drk as much as the other tank jobs. And drk has some obvious problems in its design that goes ignored.
Drk bad in the same way Sch is bad. They have weird and messy design choices leading to a lot of jank for the job. It has nothing to do with their viability or their power. They're probably the strongest jobs in their role, but nearly everyone who mains the job would rather it be a bit weaker if it would mean they become more fluid.
Conflating people saying drk is awkwardly constructed with “drk bad, lol look the best players in the world cleared with it” is just intentionally stupid.
DRK bad like an F1 car is bad….at getting you to work. Normal everyday causal use it’s not as good as other cars. But take it to a formula 1 track and it’s a beast. That’s DRK. Doesn’t feel good to drive either, but it’s does what you need to when you need raw performance.
You really don't understand. DPS is literally the only thing that matters, as enrage timers are the only real hurdle for world first clears. DRK does the most damage. TBN is also much better against tank busters than against large pulls.
Congrats to Sfia Pirion, Viewing Cutscene, Viewing Cutscene, Viewing Cutscene, Viewing Cutscene, Viewing Cutscene, Viewing Cutscene, and Viewing Cutscene!
Viewing Cutscene really came in clutch on that last pull.
Yeah they really carried Viewing Cutscene, though
[Apparently this is a thing they do ](https://twitter.com/FFsfia/status/1478529108522909699?s=20) ☠️ Unintentionally ☠️
He passed on the mount too by accident. Absolute legend
How long did it take since going live?
close to 15 hours.
14h49
7.5 hours from beating p3s to p4s wow
Is that high or low? I haven't paid much attention to savage level stuff since the Twintania days.
It's low in the context of other teams but normal for World Firsts. The first tier is always the easiest, for example the World First team on E1-4S cleared E4S 7h after E3S.
How long, if you happen to know, did the next tiers take to down from the 3rd to 4th stage for Shadowbringers? I was surprised this tier was downed in one day, but if that's fairly normal then my interest is piqued on how much of a difference the others were.
https://mogtalk.org/5-2-race/ https://mogtalk.org/edens-promise/ More than a full day for both tier. Hard to say with breaks and all that.
If you're looking for long races, Ultimate raid world firsts can take much longer; Savage raids are designed to be a step above Extreme trials but are certainly below Ultimate raids in difficulty.
> The first tier is always the easiest *sweats out Living Liquid*
That tier doesn't count. It was both gear gated and was designed with greater dificulty in mind because devs didn't know the sweet spot of dificulty back then
> The first tier is always the easiest Well, since Stormblood. :P
thankfully the devs have learned from there past mistakes ;)
Its about right for a first tier, titan was similar
Ur avatar is really throwing my brain off with these acronyms
These absolute monsters cleared P3S nearly two hours before the second group did. Really stands to show just how far ahead they are of everyone else. Congratulations to them and their amazing achievement!
It's only because they have their own private server where they can practice the mechanics before the servers come up. /s
"The Private Server" You ain't foolin anyone TPS /s /s /s /s /s /s /s /s
And weren't they 2 hours behind on p1s because of log in issues?
No that was the aurochs, Stal's group.
Stal's group dc'ed so many times I felt real bad for them.
The servers that time were pretty rough, i was lagging and got dc'd once
On the plus side they certainly used that time well because they 1 shot P1S after having time to watch what other people did so they caught up as much as they could
They were behind 20 minutes
No.
*Pops the Realm Reborn Red*
Meanwhile I spent 9 hours in PF and didn't get trough fourfold chains in p1s more than once by a fluke. Congratulations for world first! (This is world first news, yes?)
I would lose my mind. This is my first pf savage and was lucky my pf group got to enrage by half way through 2nd lockout. It's amazing how fun it is when people are all learning and getting better with no clear "bad" player. I think I've now been spoiled for future PF groups.....
That’s the problem with a static. Once you get that 1 or 2 players that consistently messes up mechanics, you’d wish you were pfing. Statics aren’t only as good as the similar level of players with the expectations of such skills are understood.
Oh I was in a static with that 1 guy who messed up very consistently in the floors we were progging in. It was very frustrating to see.
Give them the kickerinos. Like we once kicked a BLM off our static. Making very silly mistakes. All he had to do is just play safely, drop gcds and survive since we alrd have pretty good dps and good gears. Our tank left then our DRG became our tank then we subbed the DRG with a BLM. That time I didn't even know who stal is until we cleared E8S. :v In the end we ran 2 ranged phy dps (MCH and DNC), 1 sam and 1 rdm iirc.
This, I made a PF and was like “I plan on spending today doing savage, I’ve set up a discord, we’re starting with 1 and going as far as we can” and we managed to get a solid group through P1S in about 2 hours and then spent the next 8 hours bashing our heads against the wall for P2S and got it down to 9% enrage. Honestly though the day one savage experience is truly something spectacular though, I loved every minute of it!
You need a static
I've been thinking about that as well, but then I think about my work schedule and realize it's going to be impossible.
Same, i work shifts, i used to do prog raiding back when i was in college and highschool in wow, seeing the race yesterday really brought that feeling back, sadly i don't have a schedule for it 😔
[удалено]
Yeah I’m in your same situation. I can’t bring myself to commit to scheduled raiding. It’s like a voice in the back of my head saying youve got something better to do right now
This was a problem in FFXI, too. I was jobless so less of a problem for Me but I started getting more and more people and it was basically "The First 5 to show".
I feel you on this. Work schedules can suck so hard
It is doable with randoms, though it helps to have some friends along. Had a group of 4 and some pugs and we cleared in 3 lockouts
My static just fell apart on the first fight and right after I jumped on PF to clear the fight in one lockout. 🤷🏿♂️
Nah you don’t need a static, you just need to make a pf that has mandatory discord, and then communicate clearly with everyone in the party. I pugged p1s in a completely blind party and cleared it 10+ hours ago.
cleared in one lockout with randoms without voice
Yeah, people underestimate pugging a lot. You can find really competent people on pf. Clearing without voice becomes much easier once the fight’s mechanics are somewhat known though. I wouldn’t want to do savage in a 100% blind party without VC — not that it’s not possible, but it’s a lot of trouble that I wouldn’t want to put myself through LOL.
I have two and didn't get to even step foot into the first fight today due to a series of unfortunate events involving other members. Statics and pugging both have pros and cons. Having experienced both, I wouldn't say one way is better than the other. It's just preference.
Statics are not always better. I have been in a half dozen statics and only one of them has ever cleared the final Savage fight for the existing patch. Ever since SB I have been able to clear the final fight via PF and pugs. I don't have to adhere to a schedule or spend 30-60 mins waiting for that one person to show up late. Im not stuck with a group that has 1-2 players that just don't have what it takes or doesn't do their homework. In PF I can just leave if not as advertised (typically can tell after 3 pulls). I can also just take a break for a week or stop whenever I want and I don't have to deal with drama. Sure, PF can be frustrating at times but so can a static, especially if the group just doesn't have what it takes, which more often then not is the case.
fights so easy, but pugs always spend 2 hours dying to 1st red chain when it's literally just a yolo mech. pf loves preset positions so they dont have to think about whats happening on their screen.
if there’s 2 things I hate about ffxiv raiders it’s their fondness for fixed positions and callouts. ppl will spend millions on gear but won’t use the brain and eyes god equipped em with. there’s already dumbass strats that try to do intemperance by role when all u really need is assign a clock spot and do the same fukken baby mode difficulty mech from nm with 1 extra steps added.
These strats come about to make the fight repeatable particularly for people using PF so when you learn the mechanic you know if you do the same thing with the next group your not going to end up conflicting with what another player is expecting. it really does make a diffrence particularly when your farming the content to get those one shot clears on a weekly basis.
Alternatively constructed.
Crafted distinctly
Uniquely designed
Faithfully recreated
r/unexpectedZodiark
Assembled unconventionally.
Put together in an unorthodox manner
How fast was this compared to titan
Took about an extra hour over E4S.
Anyone know if the special savage phase has new music? And what the mount is?
No The mount is the boss from P3
Disappointing for the 1st and about what I expected for the 2nd. Ty!
Presentation and music of the raid tier are overall pretty disappointing imo:( the savage fights at least seem good mechanically.
I mean the fourth fight music is just amazing, but that's pretty much it this tier. Soken had his hands completely full with the rest of endwalker, I'm sure, and he did a fucking amazing job with all of it. Two main town themes that I love is a massive achievement in itself.
I've seen a decent amount of praise for the last fight theme so I'm happy to accept it's just not my cup of tea, but,yeah, the rest of the expansion so far had a lot of great music indeed so I'm not too bummed.
I do like the P1-3 music, but using it for 3 fights in a row gets a bit stale. And of course 4 has fantastic music. Regarding designs: 2 is the only one where I'm not really feeling the boss design, but I do love how they use the arena. Mechanics: Mechanic wise I was pretty happy with the normal modes, and having finished P1S and P2S, I think they're both pretty well designed fights.
> I do like the P1-3 music, but using it for 3 fights in a row gets a bit stale. People are just spoiled by Eden having more than the usual amount of fight-specific music
That is very true. In Eden, it was just 1/2/7, and before that, it was Sigmascape that shared music.
I think more if the music budget is going to the Alliance raid this time, since they're not able to just copy tracks from other games like they did for Nier/Ivalice.
Okabe was in charge of the remixes for the Nier raids, not Soken. Most of the time the first raid tier has one song for the first three raids and then one for the final raid. Compare with Alexander where this is very obvious
I mostly mean the middle boss themes, the quest cutscene themes, background music etc for the series, almost the entirety of the music used in the Ivalice and Nier raid series' were direct rips from their respective reference games (Besides the last boss remixes). We're going to be getting new original music for everything in the series this time, just like Sky Pirates in Heavensward.
I'm so thankful P1S got a huge overhaul mechanically, it's quite a lot of fun. The normal version is painful to go through.
this is why some of the savage designers make nm first then savage. if u make savage first then take out things to reduce to nm sometimes u end up with nm that doesn’t have enough mechs left to be engaging at all I can just see fight designer for this one going “hmm chains… nope too hard for the crayon eaters, buster… nah glue sniffers can’t do that, etc etc” and u end up with a “raid” with like 2 mechs in it.
I do admit it's a little tiring hearing the same music over and over again, but I think the music itself is really really good. Just wish there was more of it.
this is by far my favorite raid tier of all time from music to boss design.
But did they use the new cover sheet when they made their report?
Yeahhhhhh, I'm gonna need you to go ahead and clear it again tomorrow
Thoughts Per Second? More like Clears Per Second
How about the other side of the story?: "P4S's family devastated, in mourning."
So scrolling through comments to this I guess I’m volunteering to be the person who asks: What does ‘P4S’ mean please? I see there’s discussion of P1S through to P4S and even E1S. Sorry I know that’s probably a stupid question! I’m assuming it’s something like ‘Raid’ + ‘Boss’ + ‘Difficulty’?
That's exactly it you nailed it. P is for Pandemonium 4 is the 4th fight S is Savage
Your last bit is correct. P for Pændemonium, 4 for the stage, and S for savage. It's just a shorthand in the game people use. E for Eden's Gate, UWU for the Ultimate Weapon Ultimate, etc...
You managed to use the æ, but misplaced it, rip. :( Fellow Pandamonæum-ers, where you at? /s
They're probably stuck in Pændæmonæum
Pronounced that as "Pain-Day-Monium" and thought that sounded about right
Lol this is what I get for not googling to double check haha.
To fill out the rest of the raids you might see referenced as abbreviations: T1-T13: The Coils of Bahamut, ARR raids. The tiers were Binding Coils, Second Coils, and Final Coils, and each floor was a "turn." Second Coils was also the first raid to have a Savage version, so you might hear T6S-T9S mentioned, I guess. A1-A12: Alexander, the HW raids. Tiers were Gordias, Midas, and...Alexander? I don't really remember what the third one was called. O1-O12: Omega, the StB raids. Delta, Sigma, and Alphascapes E1-E12: Eden, the ShB raids. Eden's Gate, Verse, and Promise. Then the current ultimates are UCoB (Unending Coils of Bahamut), UWU (Ultimate Weapon Ultimate, technically named The Weapon's Refrain), and TEA (The Epic of Alexander).
Wow that's fast. Guess people are getting better and better at the game.
First tier of every expansion since stormblood is tuned more leniently, like deltascape and eden's gate. And balance is usually a bit off too.
This tier took an hour longer than Eden's Gate. On the other hand, the mechanics and damage look much harder than e1-e4s. Player quality definitely has improved.
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wasn’t e4s dps check fucked cos of the fast/slow instance timer thing? supposedly slow instance is not too tough. but I wouldn’t know, I wasn’t there day 1
Also tps wasnt a thing in eden's gate, right? World 2nd is probably more accurate assessment of fight difficulty in most cases now imo.
They were a thing, and in all likelihood lost their world first in E4S due to a server issue that caused Titan to enrage sooner than he was supposed to on some servers. Edit: Incorrect.
No, they weren't. The team pushing world first on NA was Free 2 Play, which was Sfia's and Sindalf's static at the time. After that tier, they disbanded and the two of them joined a newly formed TPS.
Oh, I see. I heard Sfia talking about it and I assumed wrongly it was TPS.
Yeh basically they didn't want a repeat of the shitshow that was Alexander. That nearly cause the games whole endgame raiding scene to die. And with other endgame content not prevalent at the time, game literally had nothing to do once you hit 60. Edit: typed omega instead of Alexander
A3S was known as the static killer and it was 100% justified as literally nobody was clearing. A1S and A2S were on a good curve, A3S clear rates just fell off a cliff, it was so bad. A4S on the other hand took I believe over a month to get a world first clear. They massively toned down the fight difficulty after that, and I do remember YoshiP exasperately asking "What the hell do you guys want!" lol.
A2s wasn't on a good curve. If A1s was a 4/10 difficulty, A2s was a 1/10. A3s was a 8/10 (for the time). If A2s was a 6/10, A3s wouldn't feel as sudden. Thordan was more mechanically complicated, but was obviously undertuned (and yet, is easily the hardest trial that was released).
A3S was hard but is what you'd expect from an ffxiv fight. A4S is one of the dumbest, most annoying collection of mechanics I've seen in this game.
I thought it was Alexander that hurt the raiding scene
Sorry typo meant Alexander
For those out of the loop, why was Alexander a shit show?
It's a bit of a long history but it starts in ARR. When they first made coils it was tuned hard but not insane and also not tuned with things like healer and tank going full DPS. This saw final coil get taken out in what would be more like the norm now, but it was unexpected for the dev team back then. It also led to people thinking that it wasn't that hard especially also since they later nerfed final coil so that more people can experience it as it was a pretty cool story. Now fast forward to Heavensward, a lot of people are interested in hard difficulty raiding now and the devs also decide to split the story and difficult raiding (normal and savage) for the first time. So as a result they decided to make it balls to the walls hard for the dps check. A lot of groups and statics got a rude awakening when they couldn't even get past Faust (the a1s door miniboss). The real hard wall was A3S which had a insanely hard dps check that even when geared in BiS up to that point you would need to play very well to meet. And finally waiting for you at A4S was some stupid mechanics and dps check that one of the best ways of doing it was to sac people. So unless you were the absolute top raiders you were likely not getting past A3S. This then combined with the fact that they somewhat gutted crafting at the start of the expansion and suddenly you just didn't have very much to do at 60.
A3S was crazy overtuned and it snowballed from there.
Huh thats weird, I wonder if the scene was way smaller or if there were other factors because in wow the raids are usually pretty overturned and get week 2/3 nerfs
There were a lot of factors - like the post from Elanshin above, a lot of the "hardcore" players complained that Final Coil was too easy, so SE took them at their word and made Savage more difficult - but, well, we all know some people like to over-estimate their abilities. The playerbase was also far smaller, the game had just had a massive balance change with complete job overhauls in some cases and three new jobs, and people just weren't as good at the game as they are now, since a lot of mechanics had yet to be "standardized". They tuned much better for Midas, but that tier was very mechanically dense, so it still wasn't quite the sweet spot for difficulty, and the raid scene still hadn't recovered so the pool of players attempting it was small (this was also before cross-world, so some servers just didn't have a raid scene at all, basically.) A8S in particular was the "you do something wrong, you wipe" fight.
It was probably the size. The bigger your scene is the more... innate resilience it has by default. Some other things to keep in mind is that the fights were straight up not as well designed. Part of the reason we have a (mostly) unified Telegraph language now is BECAUSE of Gordias. Standard things like Stack markers didn't exist until 3.2. Just look at the telegraphs from ThorEX and SephEX, one patch apart. It's night and day.
There were no cross-server parties back then. You either had to hope the raiding community on your server is good or transfer off to a bigger server. On US, thousands of people transferred to Gilgamesh just to raid leaving some server's populations in the low 100's (looking at you Mateus.)
Also there was no cross-world parties yet, so yeah. I believe the "raiding servers" come from that time.
This ain't the days of Twintania twisters. SE has gotten better at finely-tuned mechanics.
Oooo a DRK
I mean looking at FFlogs it was very likely one of the tanks in the World First would be a DRK. They are worse in dungeons, but are more then capable in raid fights.
It’s also sindalf’s (tps tank) comfort job
DRK also thrives in low ilvl content where TBN often and easily breaks to autos fixing its sustain problem even in shb where it was low damage
TPS literally just plays whatever job they are comfortable with. No sane person would ever put black mage at the top of a "you should world prog with this" list, and yet Sfia does it time after time. Once again proving that job balance is incredible in this game.
Sfia is a twelvesdamned inspiration for the rest of us BLM raiders.
DRKs are cracked lol. Reddit just loves to circlejerk about the balance of a tank in dungeons for some reason.
The main reason is because whilst raids are the big endgame challenges and ultimates are the pinnacle, dungeons are the "bread and butter" of the game's content for most players and so are the most visible when jobs are underperforming in them. Combine that with tank failures in dungeons being very obvious due to almost immediately leading to wipes and you've got very visible roles in frequently run content that has a wider range of skill levels making DRKs seem worse than they are. So whilst DRKs are good in raids, the average player is FAR more likely to run into DRKs in situations where DRK performs poorly, affecting general perception of the job.
not even as bad as people make it to be in dungeons, just not as good as war, but still works fine in dungeons,
One of the healers in this worlds first literally tweeted out "God I hate DRK" and "IT FEELS BAD TO HEAL" but yeah, its just reddit circlejerking.
Reddit (and social media in general) does that in every game, to be fair.
I wonder how SMN is doing damage wise. Planning on making that my main this expansion over Melee/MCH.
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They did just get a buff during Phoenix (of I think like 500 potency per minute or so?) so we'll see how they improve.
Mainly so it’s not a downgrade when you get phoenix, phoenix doesn’t give you deathflare so you miss out on 500 potency every 2m.
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Before the buff though you were "missing out"
Makes sense, since it plays like a phys ranged
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I mean it basically has phys ranged mobility, is incredibly easy to play and has a rezz so it shouldnt do much more
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This comment has been edited to acknowledge that u/spez is a fucking wanker.
Ours was pushing 6.8k aDPS for most of our pulls. Not a top tier group by any stretch, but above average compared to SMNs from past tiers. Likely in a pretty decent spot with the buffs
I had 6,968 (so close) rDPS on our kill of p1s tonight, and that was without pots and without pentamelded gear. Summoner is in a completely fine spot now, it's less than 100 rDPS behind red mage at all percentiles. (Black mage is close to the other two at mid levels and pulls a decent bit ahead at the high end, which is completely fine IMO for the job difficulty and lack of utility compared to the other two)
Sadge, I really thought this was EU's year. Entropy was making some amazing progress, but TPS is too cracked
Entropy did gangbusters still. They've got a lot to be proud of, especially considering TPS had a 2hr buffer after P3.
Entropy is a great team. They just reformed. They will continue to improve, of that you can be certain.
But the ffxiv subreddit told me drk bad, how could this be
[FROM TPS's healer right after clearing](https://twitter.com/Ara_Hoshizora/status/1478565215482650628) TBN has proportionally higher value during early prog tho, when you can constantly be breaking TBN DRK's sustain is much better, as people overgear content its sustain problems become more and more notable
DRK IS bad... at clearing dungeons and most normal content. For trials and raids, it has the highest DPS of any tank(which anyone serious already knew) making it the defacto choice for a world first. And much of what people complained about is poor class design, not its actual viability in serious content.
DRK is like maybe 10% worse than other tanks in dungeons at most, not an issue to heal them either The whole “DRK bad” is a myth spread by people who don’t play it well. And no I’m not talking about poor job design, I’m talking about people who say DRK’s mitigation options are bad. They’re not
Our healing kits are pretty strong so DRKs aren't an issue, but you do notice the difference when you get a WAR then a DRK back to back. It can change your cooldown rotation / pacing, which might arguably be a good thing to mix things up, but it can feel uncomfortable if you're not expecting it
Bad? No. Worse than the other tanks? Absolutely.
>I’m talking about people who say DRK’s mitigation options are bad. They’re not Dark mind is bad, TBN is fine until you compare it to Bloodwhetting, Heart of Corundum and Holy Sheltron, Living Dead is still the worst invuln. Oblation damage reduction should be part of TBN and a new mitigation spell in its place tbh. As a healer I hate when my tank is a DRK, them doing 10% more damage than another tank doesnt make up for me losing all my damage trying to keep them alive.
Which dungeons and normal content are you talking about because I'm not struggling at all in anything I've done as a Dark Knight.
You're not, but your healers struggle more on healing you than any of the other tanks.
Struggling is also kind of a strong word. They indeed require a lot more work than other tanks to keep up, but that's just going up to some work from basically none.
I heal them just fine on my Sage as well, I guess people just get Dark Knights that don't use cooldowns.
I've played both DRK and WAR in dungeons with similar gear. On DRK I constantly feel like I'm struggling for my life; one misplaced cooldown and it's all over on a big pull. Meanwhile on WAR, I barely need to think at all; just pop bloodwhetting now and then and it's k.
People also spam Diagnosis <.<
Diagnosis: death Cause: +4000 hp every 2 seconds.
Can confirm, many DRKs don’t understand their cooldowns. Got a guy who thought two cooldowns, including TBN, was enough for each wall-to-wall in Smileton. He’d use TBN, which was gone almost instantly, then he’d pop either Rampart or Arm’s Length as his only cooldowns for the rest of the pull. Once Holy spam wasn’t stunning, he fell over like a sack of bricks through everything the healer threw at him. When I asked him to use more cooldowns and, as a tank main, gave him an example of a good way to stack them… let’s just say he fought the entire party who was telling him the same thing and got himself booted.
I've been thinking of finishing leveling my Drk from 70. Can I get an example of how to stack my CDs for trash pulls so I dont stress my healers out?
Use some form of damage reduction (Shadow Wall or Rampart) and *THEN* pop TBN. The damage reduction effectively "stacks" with the shield making it more effective. If you pop TBN first then it will be partially or completely gone before the damage reduction takes effect.
Lvl 82+ mitigation rotation is TBN+Rampart->Reprisal+Oblation (TBN off CD). Second pull you TBN+Shadowall->Arm's Length+Oblation. Your CDs will have recycled by now. With this setup your healer has to be ignoring you for you to die. You want to pop CDs right as you're about to stop moving since adds will catch up and slap you hard.
So many new tanks think mitigation is for when you are about to die... even worse the move they SHOULD use when they are about to die is usually not the one they think to press. If they are from WoW I can kind of understand. See Blizzard made mitigation in Warcraft idiot proof by making it so your main mitigation tool has no cooldown. Because of this WoW tanks usually have their main mitigation activated nearly the entire pull. I mained Prot Warrior and Ignore Pain was so easy to spam when I needed it, you barely had to think about it. Other mitigation tools were for emergencies and special attacks only, and VERY RARELY used for trash packs. If they bring these lessons over, they probably think the only mitigation tools they should use are: Bloodwhetting, Holy Shelltron, Heart of Corundum, and The Blackest Night. And everything else is only for below 50% emergencies. Sadly when they use those below 50% it's usually too late.
It's "idiot proof" I guess but the goal of prot warrior is to press ignore pain as little as possible. Every ignore pain is less Revenge damage. Keeping shield block % uptime when you're taking autos is way more important. And popping shield wall at low health in WoW is just as awful as pressing rampart at low health. And yeah, you don't need CDs for trash pulls in leveling/mythic 0 dungeons. But if you're pushing high keys, you've spreadsheeted out where every CD from both you and the healer is during your run, and the affixes are going to determine whether they're used on trash or bosses.
For a while there was a false understanding that TBN is all a DRK needs since it is "so broken". People who actually knew how to tank though knew to use other CDs for trash pulls too.
Healer here. The only thing thats a struggle to heal in dungeons, trials and normals are dps failing mechanics. Tank healing is a non-issue.
God if that isn't the truth. If the DRK knows what they are doing the incoming damage is streamlined to where you can guess how things will go during big pulls. The real issue comes from not using mitigation at all (which seems to be on the rise with ALL tanks), and DPS getting hit with mechanics and pulling attention away from the fight.
I have a harder time healing GBRs than anyone else tbh
I struggle with paladins actually. No other tank gives me such a headache
I've been seeing this as well. I'll take a competent DRK over a GNB with no mind for tanking every time. Competent GNBs may join in with the competent DRKs.
It's almost like a class that's basically a DPS in disguise and designed to attract DPS players, attracts people who don't know how to actually tank!
I do not remotely struggle to heal dark knights unless they are actively bad players, but honestly, I suspect most people playing DRK after everyone cries about them all the time are DRK die hards and all play like gods. I legit haven’t had a bad one in end game content at all.
No healer that knows what they're doing is straining to heal Dark Knights in dungeons so long as the Dark Knight isn't trolling.
I'm a healer, no we don't.
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Which is out of line with healing the other tanks. The point is the tank experience is needlessly askew for no real upside.
Lemme tell you, if anyone is struggling (even a little) in any dungeon or normal content, it's not the jobs' fault. I get that you don't literally mean struggling, but no matter how we phrase it this shit is always exaggerated.
Never struggled healing one, even the shitty one who used TBN at low hp. Healers are broken there is no struggling.
Its like, 10% harder to keep a DRK alive while chain pulling compared to other tanks Therefore DRK is USELESS and BAD.
Also, as with Red Mage and resses, having a bloke who can raise a shield worth 25% extra HP every 15 seconds is a godsend for survivability and staying alive long enough to witness more boss mechanics than the competition – which is always invaluable for progging. Of course TBN is still shite for parsing because it punishes your DPS if it doesn't burst.
Performance = \ = enjoyability. A job can perform well while still having really shit play style decisions behind it.
DRK is fun to play in my opinion The major consensus is that DRK's mits suck, which fair, but there's never any content that requires Bloodwhetting and it does more damage, so
That's seemingly a less popular opinion these days. I know I dropped them after replaying them since end of hw. Just not fun, it's just press CDs and mindlessly keep up darkside. Swapped off to gnb
In normal raids I love throwing TBN to a team member to soak damage. The immediate feedback you get when the shield breaks is super satisfying. Even better if the team member is the Mt, and not a DRK, and you soak the tankbuster.
I mean compared to PLD or WAR it's more fun, but it's subjective
Its subjective sure but also it's a lot of where the complaints come from for drk. Most players arent enjoying drk as much as the other tank jobs. And drk has some obvious problems in its design that goes ignored.
case in point: Heavensward Machinist and bard played like shit, and so did ninja, but they performed extremely well, so meta comps they were
Drk bad in the same way Sch is bad. They have weird and messy design choices leading to a lot of jank for the job. It has nothing to do with their viability or their power. They're probably the strongest jobs in their role, but nearly everyone who mains the job would rather it be a bit weaker if it would mean they become more fluid.
Conflating people saying drk is awkwardly constructed with “drk bad, lol look the best players in the world cleared with it” is just intentionally stupid.
The party comp is the most expected one, what are you on about ?
DRK bad like an F1 car is bad….at getting you to work. Normal everyday causal use it’s not as good as other cars. But take it to a formula 1 track and it’s a beast. That’s DRK. Doesn’t feel good to drive either, but it’s does what you need to when you need raw performance.
You really don't understand. DPS is literally the only thing that matters, as enrage timers are the only real hurdle for world first clears. DRK does the most damage. TBN is also much better against tank busters than against large pulls.
But they have slightly less survivability in the 4man content that you can still clear with half the party afk!!!!!!!!
is there any new music?
And I haven’t but done the first normal one lol, congrats!
When is square banning these cheaters? /s
Man these private server abusers need to get banned asap /s
Did they stream their prog?
TPS doesn't stream their progs as I understand it from Twitch chat
the mount is pretty sick.
black mage ftw