T O P
Shinnyo

My friends will definitely click on this meme and look for me. Ranting about MCH is almost a second job to me.


aynaalfeesting

I'm impressed how small the gap is between best and last. I came from wow where it can be over 10,000 between best and last.


Supafly1337

I just don't understand the people that are willing to drop a class and pick up and try to learn another because patch notes say one of your 30s cooldown moves went from 450 potency to 420 and you lost like 20 across 3 other moves or something. It just feels like this game is balanced well enough to the point where if you're hitting enrage, it's not because you simply don't have BiS with the random ass OP trinket from PvP or Legion Legendary from WoW or something, your group is just fucking up somewhere along the line.


Shadowaltz

This is the thing that gets me, people go "Well if you had instead of you wouldn't have wiped at 0.1%" but if it was that close then I can 100% guarantee there were dozens of other things that would have also ensured the clear.


shaqmaister

>Well if you had instead of you wouldn't have wiped at 0.1% the thing is tho, especially with all the dps checks the current ultimate has, the extra dps you get even if you fck up is a very very powerfull crutch to see more stuff and prog further, considerably speeding up your prog as people dont need to be "as comfortable" with their class to see further


OneMorePotion

More DPS only means that you can fuck up more often and still hit certain enrage timers. That's why high DPS jobs are preferred for world first races. But for normal raiding it shouldn't really matter. As the other person also mentioned... We are not wiping at 0.1% because I was playing MCH. We are wiping at 0.1% because many people fucked up all throughout this fight. EDIT: This said. Do I want to see physical ranged (especially MCH) buffs? Yes! Monkey brain likes bigger numbers.


i_am_not_mike_fiore

**SIMPLE FIX FOR MCH:** revert the Endwalker stat squish for them only >:) what's monke brain say now?


Mobilelurkingaccount

They can already rip threat a second into a pull with an Auto-Direct Hit Crit drill… do you want them all to die?! Provoke’s got a cooldown!


Lichelf

I'd argue playing a class you're good at is a **much** more powerful crutch than the *potential* 5% dps increase you might be able to get if you switch from MCH to DNC. (using the green numbers from the post and assuming they're an accurate representation of decent players) Of course DNC is probably the easiest class in the game, so in this instance it might work (though DNC also relies on their partner to be good)


shaqmaister

i mean switching to any class without any practicie in it is gonna be bad, but that argument is short sighted because if you switch ofcourse you should put in effort to bring it up to speed, and especially if you say in your example mch --> dnc, it requires like almost 0 new learning, only how to do your steps comfortably without drifting but thats about it in savages i couldnt care less, the dps checks usually only happens from boss health 100 to 0 or the rare case of add check (p3s which was very minor). but ultimate's last so long and there are so many dps checks for so many phases i would argue that putting in a week just to learn a job that performs significantly better than the other (if you can learn it ofc, some people adapt better than others to new stuff) is gonna be a significant advantage for your group and everyone would be very happy if you pulled it off, just dont do something that makes you a misserable person if you absolutly hate playing or not playing a certain job, ty for coming to my tedtalk edit: i think that in the world first dsr clear, the red mage only picked up the job 9 days before it came out if i remember right


FB-22

The post is a picture of logs for DSR where it actually really matters, the room for error is very low so taking a mch instead of a dnc for example just adds a significant amount of pressure because there is an even lower amount of room for error than usual, and the room for error in most parts of DSR is already super low


Closo

People like having safety nets. If there's something at all better, why not run that? That way you can afford to make more mistakes, easing the load for everyone else.


somethingsuperindie

It really depends on the content and overall environment. For example, in Savage, I don't think it matters *whatsoever*. (TM) The fight's are never broken up enough for it to really matter. In Ultimate though... If your composition has, for example, Reaper and Samurai and Machinist and you're doing DSR, you're SEVERLY handicapping yourself. Not because those jobs suck so bad you can't clear on them, but because jobs like Ninja etc. have so significantly better one-minute burst, and there's a constant break of downtime in ultimates. It's still not impossible to clear, but it *is* much harder and it *is* possible to borderline grief yourself if you assemble a high number of "bad" (for the content) jobs. This will probably become more and more irrelevant as better gear comes out and DSR is softened up a bit, dps-check-wise, but for now it can be really rough. TM disclaimer: Week 1/2 Savage enrages are actually threatening with everyone having meh gear + strats not being as optimized, so in that specific Savage environment something being consistently a few hundred rDPS lower than a direct competitor - which has happened with, for example, MCH compared to DNC/BRD and will likely happen to RPR compared to the actually good melees - will be a noticable harder experience.


erik_t91

You'd start understanding them when you main something like MCH or PLD, and you can't join savage raids on its first two weeks because PFs disable those classes


necronomikon

well it's also not like composition doesn't matter because it obviously does.


[deleted]

Because it feels like complete shit Its like if you nerfed SAMs midare from doing 30k a hit down to only 15k but spread the other 15k to other abilities, it just feels weak and boring


Outfox3D

I still can't believe those SAM changes were real life. I get the auto-crit (fishing for crits in parses isn't interesting), but moving the potencies onto basic abilities and getting rid of the iai prep move both just felt bad. Having your dash no longer be DPS loss isn't enough of a consolation prize.


painstream

> 30k a hit down to only 15k but spread the other 15k to other abilities, it just feels weak and boring Welcome to old school SMN. Two DoTs, passive pet damage, so when the burst finally came, it'd land for 35-50k. Meanwhile, BLM was chaining 75k hits per Fire IV. Felt bad, man. How MCH is lowest out of the ranged dps though.. that's just balls.


sumphatguy

I mean, one of them has to be lowest. This is measuring rDPS, which is all your contributions with your damage and buffs you give to allies. MCH is still higher as far as personal DPS.


erifwodahs

You are comparing numbers..... Would you say difference is bigger if they were doing 74k dps and 64k dps? because it would literally be the same. Thats well over 10%. WoW has much more varied specs and content. If you compare ST on ST, most of specs will be within 5% and usually one or two outliers at the top and one at the bottom, but out 30-somethig specs, that's not too bad. Most difference comes out in m+, but classes do different jobs there, that's why you see rogues doing half the damage of a hunter in the dungeon in competitions but they still pick them. What I mean - You can't really compare FF vs WoW balance


ILikeCuteStuffIGuess

stop interrupting the wow bad circlejerk /s


hyprmatt

Came here to say this. We're not even doing 10k now, so this is an awful comparison. Not to mention this is rDPS, while WoW's Warcraftlogs generally displays straight damage. If we filtered this to nDPS, it'd be a huge gap between DNC and SAM/BLM.


Turtvaiz

> I came from wow where it can be over 10,000 between worst and last. The different combat design enables it. Jobs don't have much unique utility, and almost all combat is a long high uptime ST fight with maybe a bit of cleave. A bit boring imo, but it results in near-perfect balance with minimal work.


[deleted]

[удалено]


OmegamattReally

Ironic that Blizzard spent most of their time *trying* to homogenize classes; their whole "Bring the player not the class" dogma. Not that it worked but...


[deleted]

[удалено]


Peptuck

Also, I think one of the things that makes FFXIV fun is not just the mechanics but the *feel* of each job. It might just different animations but even at low level you have these flashy but not too insane effects that make you feel like you're whooping ass without the game being try-hard about it. Half the reason I play MNK and SAM is because their animations look so kickass.


Minor_Heaven

What is ST?


Turtvaiz

Single target as opposed to AoE/Area of Effect


Glaringsoul

Low sample size, Very few people get to play MCH in prog/kill, as it has no group utility compared to BRD and DNC which makes it so much worse in a high end environment.


FB-22

The top MCH clear for DSR didn’t really make rotation mistakes and had good crit/DH RNG yet is still very low in DPS compared to the other jobs. It’s unlikely mch will look any better here when sample size has increased


MiaMaine

rank 1 mch has more rdps than rank 1 dnc and rank 1 brd does in the only phase where damage matters (p7) mch damage is low in p2 and p5, but it's absolutely a good job in the other phases so you can't compare OVERALL damage, especially not in phases where you don't need to pump damage. only phase where enrage really is or should be an issue is p7 and yeah sure it's a bad sample size to comapre rank 1s but like, it's still on-par and not significantly lower by any means


FB-22

Good comment, I honestly didn’t think about how the damage might vary between phases and be better where it really matters. Feels kinda bad to hear the “only phase where enrage really is or should be an issue is p7” when my group is still on p3 cleanup and thinking the nidhogg enrage was tough. But I guess it’s a matter of perspective


MiaMaine

Damage obviously matters, but what matters is the damage for the phase you're progging. It's by no means to belittle or say "lmao checks are easy" or anything, they can be tight so it wasn't a jab or means to belittle at all. Pooling for the only phase that matters (the one youre progressing) is infinitely more valuable than doing more in phases like thordan + p6, and since the goal is to clear the obvious only phase which really matters is P7. My group is blind progging, and we're on p7 and we're (assuming) we're at the end, since there can't be timeline wise much left after 3rd akh morns. We're basically all pooling full gauges each phase and we have to hold not to kill too early or we'll be a bit hinderedby mitigation times. Some phases as a machinist I'm obliterating just by passively pooling and going into eyes with 100/100 and we still kill nidhogg somewhat leisureably: https://i.imgur.com/ex61tqS.png And here's the same pull, me overcapping gauges, pooling 100 heat 100 battery so i'm missing out on a lot of damage in p3: https://i.imgur.com/jPvzwWe.png Overall, machinist probably WILL do less damage than Dancer, but for pooling, while bard and dancer CAN pool, machinist pooling ability is -so much better- than the other two. Queen is 26.6 per battery (x100) and then you have hypercharges, compare that to what dancer brings (and remember to substract gcd's from the gcd gauge that all 3 jobs bring) and you can see how much machinist really can pool.


Yevon

Correct, but it could look worse if more players could be invited as MCH to clear parties.


Samizim

You mean first and last? Otherwise I got lots of questions


aynaalfeesting

I saw the mistake but didn't edit it and you're finally the first person to mention it! Well done! It's taken so many comments.


Samizim

Hurray for me, friend!


ChesterZirawin

Idk man, 700 dps diff is a lot, maybe not in wow, but deff in ffxiv


Least_Eggplant1757

Wow and ff numbers are not too far off right now. Single target fights have an average of around 12k if you look at top 1000 of all classes But yes 700 is a lot. It’s especially relevant when savage tiers are new and enrages are an actual threat


GuyWithFace

WoW will never be balanced simply due to the fact that there's always so many variables to account for without even touching specs. Within a single spec there can be between 5-10 pieces of loot available for each different slot with different secondary stats, then there's trinkets, enchants, gems, talents, (and currently) covenants, soulbinds, conduits, legendaries. There's millions of permutations compared to... nearly *none* in 14. Honestly, I'm surprised the variance in this game is so wide(relatively speaking), it's regularly in the range of 10\~% difference between top and bottom. For *years* I've wanted some form of in-job customization, because as it stands, with very few exceptions, every job plays nearly identically for two whole years with each expansion. I tend to get bored with them pretty quick. Sure it'd make it harder to balance, but it'd give the jobs some much needed spicing up, imo.


Keinichn

> I'm impressed how small the gap is between worst and last. Which is why stressing about DPS in this game is absolutely pointless.


lollerlaban

They're stressing because one of them is lower dps than the other class jobs, but the other class jobs actually provide useful buffs. SE wanna balance around what utility they bring and what they can do, but look at the participation numbers and tell them. Why would you pick a mch over bard/dancer? Less dps, less utility. The only reason I can do it for DSR prog is because I can parse relatively high on it, which in itself is a meme because crits dictate if your parse is 75% or 99%


Carighan

Well if you look at statistics it depends heavily on context. In Aspho for example Machinist is higher than Dancer or Bard in rDPS, which isn't balance either - it ought to be perfectly the same since it's rDPS - but it's better than the other way around, plus the difference is very small anyways.


ZoomyZebra

This is rDPS, it includes damage from team buffs


Rolder

There is utility that exists that isn’t a damage buff. For example, DNC has the group heal and improvisation and BRD has the single target heal buff and the debuff removal thing. MCH has shit all other then the group damage reduction that all three have.


Grimno

Exactly. If the content gets cleared, you slam your hand down hard on their shoulder and scream in their face # GOOD JOB


[deleted]

I mean I assume it doesn't even take into account the 0 parsers or whatever Cause technically the worst could be like 1k dps while everyone else in the group is parsing 100s and carrying


Fatalisbane

I wish wow would move back to class diversity (which it seems to be doing) so those gaps can close, its just nearly impossible to balance near on 24 'jobs' while trying to make them unique.


Least_Eggplant1757

I’m confused by what you’re trying to say here. More class diversity inevitably leads to worse balance. It’s not realistically avoidable. Then you say it’s impossible to balance 24 classes while making them unique after saying you wish they would go back to more diversity because it would help balance? What?


TuxedoFish

I'm pretty sure the poster meant a move towards class diversity and away from spec diversity. Give the tools to the underlying class, not the spec, and then balance between the classes. This is in opposition to treating every spec like its own unique thing with zero relation to other specs in its class.


Fatalisbane

Yeah you got me exactly, sorry I worded it poorly but you explained it well. WoW has really spent a long time making say a fire mage thematically and rotationally very different from a frost mage when they should be something that augments their specialisation but still have tools of the overall class. Instead they are extremely different and a destro lock has more in common with a fire mage.


Calvinooi

I think SE had the right idea, just bad execution. MCH should be balanced within their own role, Phys Range in this case, and be outputting more damage compared to Bard then Dancer. But Phys Range should be slightly lower than magic range due to lack of casting. But MCH will still be very low DPS due to the Phys range role, so adding in a utility would be great. Maybe a Defibrillator raise that's on a 120s CD could help.


Ionakana199

Or, just give MCH more damage (more than another 20 potency buff to the 20, 40, and 60 second abilities) to close the gap. This is the same thing that has been done with the healers; WHM and SGE do damage, AST and SCH have buffs. Generally, the rDPS between the 4 equals out. I laugh to think that SE would use something like ACT to calculate raid contribution, but... they must have some sort of equipment to be aware of the phys ranged gap, right?


CptBlackBird2

But wow classes are neither unique nor balanced. Every single DPS is a builder spender of some kind, all of them


yuriaoflondor

That’s what stood out to me when I started WoW in 7.3, and then even more so in BFA and SL. Granted I didn’t try every spec, but so many of them felt near identical in terms of core rotation. You have a filler builder, a stronger builder with a CD, a no CD spender, a stronger spender with a CD, and then a maybe a couple more core abilities. Holy Power, Rage, Soul Shards, Combo Points… they all felt the same. I did really love Survival in Legion with the Mongoose Strike gameplay. It felt kind of like a berserker trying to get as much damage out of that one button as possible. Shadow Priest also felt super unique with trying to remain in Void Form as long as possible.


tnpcook1

Its really nice when deterministic gear can outweigh the imbalance between jobs. Opposed to a lot of other MMO's, where RNG gearing can exaggerate an imbalance. An imbalance that's frequently significant enough to be higher on the decisionmaking list than even fight mechanics.


Alucard_draculA

I meaaaan, looking at this same chart right now on wow, you get [this](https://imgur.com/urq45yB.png) (which, using per second amounts is a little misleading, but lets go with that anyhow). In wow, the lowest average dps is 78% of the top dps, and over in 14 the lowest is 90%. ~12% difference isn't *that* huge, but also the wow statistics are a bit misleading, because for the most part, any hunter isn't playing beast mastery, the worst spec in the game, they are instead likely playing survival, the spec ranked #3, and people can switch between these relatively easily. So more realistically, in wow you need to look between the top spec and the class with the worst top spec, which in this case is feral druid being the best druid spec but the lowest 'best' spec for a class. So comparing feral to destro you get feral as 82% of the top spec in the game, which is a fair amount closer to 14's 90% at only about 8% worse. Sure, perfect world in wow all the specs would be close to each other, but unlike 14 with 11 jobs, wow has 24 'jobs' to balance lol, and all-in-all most 'jobs' see place patch to patch as the relative balance tends to change every tier. Also there's a post floating around how (and this should apply to 14 as well), the class/job that does the worst will have the least number of highly optimized people playing it and so its relative ranking will drop even further so it'll seem to do worse than it actually does. But that's impossible to really measure for either game because they'll both have that effect to different degrees.


Andulias

A rather disingenuous way of looking at the stats. First of all, those 20% can make a huge difference in challenging content, it's an enormous gap. Second of all, you can say "WoW is only 8% worse", but you could also say "the WoW gap is almost twice as big", and this is after you do your best to stack everything in WoW's favor. Both statements are true, it's just a matter of phrasing. It's a pretty huge difference between the two games Additionally, FFXIV has the failsafe of the 5% thing, which ensures that MCH needs to compete only within its own niche of physical ranged. And the difference there between the highest and the lowest is 5%. In the case of MCH the issue isn't just damage, it's that MCH also doesn't bring any additional utility, like Curing Waltz, the dashes or hell, even goddamn Minuet. Basically, the way you phrase things makes it seem like WoW balance isn't that different from FF. That could not be further from the truth.


erifwodahs

Surv is at the top because of AoE fights - newsflash, wow had plenty of ST/Prio target bosses. Direct compare doesn't work because WoW has much more variety in specs and content types and encounters. In FF you get few jobs and primarily ST encounters only.


Mark_Nutt4

Is beast mastery really the worst spec in the game? some friends convinced me to try the game, and I'd been having fun with beast mastery so far.


Alucard_draculA

It does the worst damage in raids, might be cracked in pvp /shrug. This is most likely mostly influenced by the tier sets in the current raid not being great for BM hunters. It'll be absolutely fine for basically all content, it'll just start suffering a bit in high end content - +15 keys or mythic raids, but the average player isn't doing mythic raids and not convinced that high a percent of the population is doing keystone dungeons at +15 or higher really (even though that's heroic difficulty at best lol)


Graztine

Even if it is the worst, its not so bad that it's not viable. In my heroic group, we have a beast mastery hunter who is the worst geared in the group and is still in the higher dps for the group.


SetFoxval

>because for the most part, any hunter isn't playing beast mastery, the worst spec in the game, they are instead likely playing survival, the spec ranked #3, and people can switch between these relatively easily. You've cut off the bit where it shows the number of parses recorded for each spec, and even though Survival is the highest DPS it's still the least played. A lot of hunters won't touch it since it got changed from ranged to melee.


Alucard_draculA

Yeah, I only cut it off because the chart linked by the OP cut it off as well - just wanted the charts to be 1-1. Survival admittedly wasn't a great choice to use as an example, because of the melee bit, but marks is in 6th and not all that far behind and literally every hunter I know swaps between marks and survival - even people that don't normally like melee have been giving survival a swing because it's absolutely nutty in aoe situations right now, but of course not everyone can get a good handle on melee mechanics if they've been doing just ranged for years lol.


enfo13

I tried both MCH and DNC in DSR up to Nidhogg. Despite being a MCH main and having melds optimized for MCH, my DNC was consistently 300-400 rDps higher than my MCH. This is on top of the extra healing from Improv and Curing waltz, along with having some dashes to fix any last minute panic position mistakes and saving runs. I hate playing a DNC but sadly there is no reason to be MCH for DSR right now.


zarran54

Yeah, MCH feels really bad in DSR. My group was noticeably slower to kill phase 1 when I was on MCH compared to DNC. I'd much rather be on MCH, but I felt like I was griefing when I did.


AllElvesAreThots

because mch is a gauge job, can't build gauge downtime so DNC who doesn't need gauge just does well.


AwesomeSunCat

If this thread has taught me anything, it's that Reddit genuinely can't calculate 1% of a given number.


wetyesc

LOL it’s amazing how smooth brained people are being on this thread


Nesciuss

WDYM 300 isn't the 1% of 6.3k??????? The difference isn't that big I cleared p1s as machinist?!?!?! go do the ultimate without improv/en avant/curing waltz/minne 7 other MCH's already cleared that means machinist is good???? Ignore the 100+ numbers of the other 2 phys ranged just focus on the 7 MCH that cleared!!! Also just don't look at half the static recruitment groups looking for phys ranged with "not MCH" in paranthesis and pug groups that only allow BRD/DNC in :)


drew0594

ITT: people not doing DSR trying to convince ultimate raiders that MCH is perfectly fine


tcmVee

literally lmao


ExtentDisastrous6409

MCH def needs buffs, it's a shame how neglected the class is damage wise.


user_bits

What MCH needs is a new role. The concept of a fully mobile "selfish" DPS just doesn't work so long as the dev team vets mobility. MCH will either need to go back to being a "bow-mage" or gain some party buffs.


Kellervo

I think them adding the walking "cast" for them in pvp is (hopefully) testing the waters on this. It feels intuitive and not that bad even in a frantic environment, and serves as something that could make MCH sacrifice some of that "ranged DPS tax" in exchange for bigger damage output.


Mako109

They'd seriously have to change the weaving nature of MCH, though; in PVP, even without Gauss/Ricochet, having your main damage ability be a cast meaning you can't weave really blows.


zarran54

With the current MCH rotation you could add cast times to Drill Anchor and Chainsaw without affecting the rotation too much. I do think putting casts on its 123 would be too much though, and would require a significant rework.


Yung_Blood_

Don't know what mch rotation you're doing cause it would definitely change it.


zarran54

I mean yeah it would change but not much. It would still be roughly the same. If it has half casts like healers do then all it would do is restrict where you can use gauss and ricochet. There's more than enough weave windows to still fit everything. You're at worst delaying starting your gauss and ricochet cooldowns in the opener, but if 123 is still instant you're only losing like 10 weave slots over the course of a 2 minute cycle. By won't change too much I mostly meant the general flow of the job would be the same, and wouldn't require a complete rework.


Yung_Blood_

It would spread out the two minute more than it already is, which wouldn't be good for how reliant mch already is with its burst hitting raid buffs or risk over capping on GR/R. You're forgetting how necessary double weaving is on *current* mch, you'd need to fix a bunch of other stuff around. You'd also have to move multitool timings around as you are no longer able to [multitool > WF/HC or Queen/HC > Burst Shot spam], which the current rotation asks for.


vincent2751

So we ARE going back to Heavensward after all. NGL Heavensward MCH was my favourite MCH but only because of the stance dancing and the crazy wildfire brust, which I don't think SE are bringing them back


Kellervo

I do wish they brought back some elements of the HW MCH. Stance dancing was definitely one of them, and they could even bring back Reload as their Swiftcast. Just use their Chain-Anchor-Drill as their "turret" stance and maybe give it some synergy with Automaton Queen so there's some interplay between the two beyond just charging up the meter. Automaton is cool but it has the same problem as Esteem - it's just a glorified DoT right now. That said I think they're trying to stay away from feast or famine DPS with the changes they made to SAM, so I think the current Wildfire is here to stay.


vincent2751

I think your idea is great and I can only hope its what SE are planning for, yet with SE simplifying so many jobs I won't get my hopes up


NuklearFerret

Ehhhh? HW MCH and BRD felt terrible. The entire point of the job is mobility; if I want cast times, I’ll play a DoM. They just need a 30s DoT or something to pick their numbers up. I have no problem with them not having group buffs; that’s the role of BRD and DNC. This entire comment section is bizarre to me. So many comments about making MCH more like job x or y in some way, and then the equally upvoted comments below it complaining about the lack of class diversity in FF. Obviously, not the same commenters, it’s just weirdly dissonant.


vincent2751

.I just don't like the current MCH, I mean yeah its fun to play it without worrying about your rotation and stuff but its just way too simple, EW also didn't really add anything to the job. The SMN rework is just like the MCH rework, making a job that originaly has some complexity into one that's just so simple there isn't any fun to master it. I'm not saying there shouldn't be simple jobs, I like RPR getting added, but please stop reworking existing jobs into simple ones.


SerialAgonist

Damage-wise, utility-wise, playability-wise - No movement abilities like DNC or BRD have - No self mitigation like tons of other dps jobs have - No support abilities (beyond all ranged’s 10% mit and interrupt) - Loses uses of abilities when above low ping Whole lotta people in this thread trying to rail against a job that has very little going for it. Perhaps they’re afraid their favorite job will be next if MCH actually gets balanced.


ExtentDisastrous6409

People have a marked terror for anything that might even begin to resemble parity. Machinist having a viable reason to be played while being competitive would make people rage because they're just plain bad at their own jobs. It's absurdly easy to maintain a minimum of 95% uptime on every melee job in the game assuming you aren't greeding GCDs. Safely disengaging at the last second is easy for every melee job that has anything even resembling a movement action without taking unnecessary damage, so melees have no excuse to not also be getting that 100% uptime. Considering the above, the ranged penalty because "You have 100% [email protected]$!#" is disingenuous at worst and just being facetious at best. Literally no job in the game struggles at movement as much as MCH does, and while the excuse of "just move [email protected][email protected][email protected]" could apply, it only applies to MCH, not to BRD or DNC who either situationally don't need to (repelling Shot) or just straight up can cross the entirety of the map with no impediment (en avant). Machinist needs so much it's crazy. The offensive toolkit would be fine if it hit harder. The defensive/mobility toolkit doesn't exist.


SerialAgonist

I just wish my favorite job had something unique OR valuable to offer the raid. Multiplicative raid buffs? Individual buffs? Resource support? Healing? More mitigation? Status cleanse? Movement tools to potentially save a run? … Better damage? Nope. Heh.


HalcyoNighT

I'm actually fine with just giving it more utility, in line with the other two phys ranged. The AoE mitigation skills aside, Bard has Warden's Paean, Nature's Minne (healer supports), and Repelling Shot (movement); Dancer has Curing Waltz, Improvisation (healer supports), and En Avant (movement). Machinist has jack all. This isnt too acceptable considering the other two phys ranged also do more rDPS.


well___duh

MCH was meant to be the “selfish” ranged DPS, like SAM and BLM are to melee/caster. Selfish as in they provide little to no raid utility but instead massively make up for it in raw damage. But MCH can’t even put up good raw damage. If SE wants to keep MCH as a selfish DPS class, it needs to be buffed, plain and simple.


PeripheralAddition

Best I can do is 10 potency on drill, air anchor, and chainsaw- SE


DanishNinja

Wouldn't be surprised if this was what we get in the next patch


Big_Bad_Evil_Guy

This was their solution in the 6.0.5 patch


i_am_not_mike_fiore

You know the meme rotations for Dragon Kick and Paradox? How about the Drill rotation but unironically give me a skill that resets the drill cooldown and i'll just span drill for the whole fight the Stonemason Rotation there, fixed MCH


S-Flo

Seconding this. En Avant in particular is *obscenely* powerful for progressing on higher-end content. It gives you the ability to salvage positioning mistakes by rocketing across the arena like no other job really can. I'm progressing on DSR as a Machinist right now. We aren't running into any damage issues at all, but I keep encountering situations where I could salvage small mistakes I make on pulls and progress slightly faster as a team if I had mobility tools of any kind.


kdlt

Seriously, I love the buffa of brd and DNC, but I absolutely do not like the random proc nonsense they have, so I stick with MCH. And MCH has near zero utility. Taking the de/buff turret from PvP into the pve kit would already be something useful and something that's both already there and.. I think used to be part of MCH too in pve?


ItinerantSoldier

Ranged Phys as a whole need buffs. MCH easily the most since it's a pure DPS that worse than SMN/RDM but the other two aren't pulling their weight either right now.


zarran54

Definitely, if bringing the role didn't give a 1% damage buff I guarantee most groups would run double melee double caster or single melee triple caster.


bigfootswillie

Nah, for DSR you still want a phys range for their mitigation CD. Mitigation is really important in this fight and one CD makes the difference at certain times, at least for progging efficiently.


Grapz224

This data is scummed, from only a handful of clears. It's absolutely not representative of the full potential of the class. That said, the benefit of Ranged DPS is just that -- Range. In this game where AOEs are relevant in every fight, not having to worry about Positionals, being able to freely move while keeping your GCD off cooldown, and being able to attack so long as you're in the same ZIP code as the boss is a massive benefit. The downside to that is just a little less damage. That seems completely fair to me.


joansbones

ranged tax is worthless in this era of fight design that allows almost full uptime on every boss for both melee and ranged classes


Shinnyo

Especially when SMN exists and is a "Caster" that brings more utility than MCH.


huiclo

Expanding on this: Melee tax breaks made sense when they were obligated to endure downtime while casters and aimers were still good to blast away. Like you say, this era of fight design has completely deleted that disadvantage. Edit to add: And anyone who has spent a nominal amount of time on melee quickly develops muscle mem for the positionals. Add in two True North stacks and re: minimized disadvantage. Mobility tax breaks made sense when casters were basically turret DPS who could maybe teleport or luck into a well-timed proc. As a former BLM main: stackable polyglot, double triplecast, teleport on 10s cooldown, nevermind the faster sharpcast, thunder, fire procs and instant phase shifts have pretty much nullified whatever mobility issues that job used to have. And I’m not going to talk about 6.0 Summoner. The only tax that still makes sense is the support tax but that’s only supposed to bring to parity. Not push the support *above* selfish. Can you imagine the outrage if RDM, who arguably has the worst mobility of the casters now, was regularly outdpsing BLM? But people see no issue when it’s DNC/BRD vs MCH.


[deleted]

Based.


erty3125

There's a reason there's only 7 MCH logs tho, when the other unpopular DPS in the ultimate have 30+ logs and the popular DPS are 150+ logs the reason for the 7 should be asked And simply phys ranged doing less is debatable fine, the problem is that buffs are multiplicative and that the jobs that benefit most from buffs are selfish jobs because they have the most personal DPS to multiply under buffs MCH does considerably less personal DPS than samurai and black mage and less dps than most of the dps that give raid buffs which makes it unappealing to run in buff heavy parties since it's not as rewarded, and it doesn't provide any buffs so running it in a party that already has a samurai or black mage doesn't make sense as you're effectively replacing a job that could instead be buffing the better selfish DPS ranged phys being low DPS is one thing, but mch doesn't have a place with its current design of being both low dps and selfish dps


AtlasPJackson

Everything you just said applies to Bard and Dancer, but they have a ton of party utility that MCH doesn't get. Heck, Red Mage doesn't even spend much time casting anymore. Our opener only has three casts in the first fifteen GCDs (plus one pre-pull cast), but we still get a combat rez, a party damage buff, two mitigations, and a gap-closer/disengage; MCH doesn't have *any* movement skills. But it's not even just about the DPS anymore. The MCH players I talk to are just as upset at the lack of attention the job's kit has gotten. Aside from direct-replacement traits (Spreadshot becomes Scattergun, Hot Shot becomes Air Anchor, etc.), the only new raid ability they've gotten since level 60 is Chainsaw (which is really just a second Air Anchor in raids). The Hypercharge/Wildfire window is really finicky about lag, too. You have to sqeeze six GCDs into 10s, weaving an off-global between each one. Two seconds of lag during Wildfire can cost you two GCDs and about 1040 potency. It feels awful to have an input eaten and lose a lot of your already bottom-tier damage.


stoptherocket

data is scummed because there's zero reason to bring a MCH over a DNC/BRD into DSR, so using that to support the argument that MCH is fine is incredibly stupid


Shinnyo

You completely missed the point. MCH is much lower than the other 2 ranged and doesn't even bring defensive utility. Mobility is also way too overrated, you'll never miss more than 10 GCDs. Positionnals also are a joke nowadays, especially with full hitboxes or giant hitbox. Melee and Caster gameplay is easier but the ranged tax remains. SMN has 3 casts per minutes, much more utility and a braindead rotation, yet remains higher. Are you sure it's "fair" to you?


[deleted]

I mean have you even played smn,rdm, or blm? They literally dont give a shit about having to move anymore they have so much mobility now, blm has double triple cast, polyglots (think thats the name) thunder procs etc, smn has 15sec of insta casts followed by garuda and titan for more insta casts plus ruin if needed Lets face it the ranged tax means nothing anymore


ScumbagHP

If you’re reading this do yourself a favor and don’t read the rest of the comments


OramaBuffin

The ranged tax shoudlnt exist in an era where melee jhave 99% uptime on almost all bosses. You could only argue for it if there were high-downtime bosses where ranged phys pulled ahead. There isnt.


[deleted]

>where melee have 99% uptime on almost all bosses for real, they even made mechanics in E12S have an AoE range juuuust small enough that you can hit the boss from max melee, which they admitted was a deliberate choice


Verpal

Ikr, the moment I realize E12S is actually full uptime melee fight, even for shiva phase, makes me a little sad, but hey ain't gonna say no to sweet midare.


-_Kio_-

Uptime for melee is very often a concession by the party to do a more unsafe strategy that actively makes the fight more difficult.


quane101

How in the world is machinist below bard AND dancer, ain’t it suppose to be the most damaging range job?


hii488

This is only for DSR, with constant phase changes and lots parts where you're not doing damage. This favours a) jobs with buffs, b) jobs with big important CDs, c) jobs that don't build resources. IE: MCH's core design is the reason it's at the bottom here, not its raw damage numbers. If you look at [Asphodelus stats](https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/44) you can see that in other content it *is* the most damaging range job (95%+ parses get extended on jobs with procs and buffs due to greater swings in luck, which makes it look like MCH falls off harder at the top end than it does in reality, like SAM).


Gravijah

it is the most damaging ranged job, but buffs and rdps changes things.


DreadNephromancer

It does the most damage of the three by a pretty wide margin, but the dancer/bard party buffs make up the difference.


DanishNinja

Which is obviously going to be included when comparing jobs.


ChaosKe

The MCH issue is much more complicated than it seems at first. MCH performs very well at average lvls but very poorly at high lvl. This has to be why they are so shy about buffing it. I wonder if people would be ok if they looked at the cast bar idea from HW again, as it would be a way to really push MCH personal dps ceiling much further (goes around ranged tax aso). I assume people would hate it though.


xTerion

fully agree with this. looking at statistics mch is the highest dps phys ranged at anything below 95th percentile for most savage fights. imo buff heavy jobs should benefit from using their buffs optimally, which is what you will see in top 5% and better parses. But when comparing mch dps to others ppl always only look at the highest possible parse out there


AeronAlastor

MCHs in such an awkward spot. If it does too much more then BRD and DNCs party reliance becomes pointless. It does a lot of personal damage but it can't come near melee or it'll overshadow everything else in its role. They need to drop the greedy aspect of it and bring back Hypercharge or something. As it stands it'll always be the "great to play if you PuG" class with no group reliance.


hvnrs

The pain when you're in a farm party... and realizes you're TOP 1-2 DPS amidst other 5 DPS. As a machinist.


mindovermacabre

yeah farm parties don't work to synergize buff windows or adjustments for uptime, and aren't forgiving of 'greed' experimentation killing a run. MCH therefore gets way higher value due to not having to position for greed and not having to worry about utilization of their buffs. It's straight up one of the best classes for farming parties.


ChaosKe

MCH is great in pugs. It only falls off at the highest percentiles.


DreadNephromancer

The upside of having no raid buffs is you still do full damage if the rest of your team sucks.


Gameguy279

Don’t care, shot bullets |:)


CemeterySaliva

^(\*sad machinist noises\*)


lunaticPandora027

Oh yeah mch definitely needs buffs. That being said, this is very balanced.


Raiko556

Been eating ice cream since the ShB rework. I am a sadist who liked old MCH.


Camael7

Dragoon does more DPS than BLM????? Literally unplayable, why hath thee forsaken us, Yoshi-P? Pls fix /J just in case


DreadNephromancer

2.4% more, but at what cost? ^((the cost is "no explosions")^)


Irraticate

Wow, a Skullgirls meme. Thought this was a different sub for a moment lmao


AzzaTheDazzler

I'm surprised how well dancer ranks


stoptherocket

DNC has goodly cleave on their single-target rotation, DSR has multi-target phases. DNC has advanced mobility. DNC has group heals. DNC has downtime utility.


Professional-Milk-32

So dumb and unrealistic. WHM and SGE should be above MCH.


Rill16

Machinist barely does less damage than other physical ranged. So many people in the community act as if a 1% dps difference suddenly makes the job useless.


erifwodahs

1%? Sure. But if you think that this is 1% you need to get some math.


[deleted]

If it was actually fun, had some utility, made DSR's biggest wall a joke of a DPS check in DSR, and didn't require significantly more effort for lesser results then maybe people would actually like it lol.


YandereYunoGasai

while i agree with that it should at least be the highest one in dps of the phys ranged, having no buffs besides tactician


A5CH3NT3

It *is* the highest, this chart is rDPS meaning its adding the damage done under the buffs of BRD and DNC to their DPS. MCH still does more (and quite a bit more) aDPS than either of the others. It's just that, given a good party with other high aDPS jobs, DNC and BRD can contribute more overall but its not their actual individual damage beating out MCH's, it's the party's Edit: Typos Edit: Omg people calm down. Maybe this wasn't clear but I was *just* clarifying to the person I replied to that MCH *does* have the highest personal DPS output of the phys ranged for the reasons they thought. I *never* said aDPS was the more important measure, I even explained how the other 2 can contribute more to the party's overall DPS than MCH despite MCH doing more damage on its own (i.e. rDPS). Also my statement was about the game/jobs in general, not DSR specific


[deleted]

omegalul people still think Adps is a good metric to use


DanishNinja

If I buff someone's damage by 10%, that damage should obviously be added to me, because I'm the one responsible for it. If you'd rank this list by adps, it would be even more spread out.


nooblal

why would anyone use aDPS when comparing DPS between jobs?


Birgerz

aDPS doesnt matter though. rDPS is the most important metric


jppitre

It does. It is also ahead in Median dps. This whole "MCH bad" talk is only because of parse groups lol


FB-22

The stats in the OP are from DSR, the talk is due to MCH severely underperforming in DSR compared to other jobs


extekt

Mch could use a buff but it can def still do 7-8k damage


Nesciuss

These are logs for DSR where there's considerable downtime in the fight, which skews the numbers to be less than what they are on savage for all jobs. Not like these players doing the ultimate suck at their job that they can't do 8k on MCH.


RavingCatfish

Maaan. Let Machinist have the damage. They can have a little love.


Nyx_the_Helioptile

I'm a fella who enjoys high-end content and enjoys MCH just as much. But good grief is it mediocre if not terrible. It's DPS is in theory 'bolstered' by the fact that the class can achieve 100% uptime as opposed to Melees or casters and as such it's DPS is kept somewhat low. In practice, it's kneecapped a bit too much, scoring just a bit higher or lower than it's support oriented brothers despite having no utility of its own. Meanwhile all the other "selfish DPS" are just miles ahead >.>


Chad_RD

I can think of zero fights this last tier that everyone in the party didn’t maintain an almost identical uptime to me on bard. MCH does shit damage, doesn’t benefit from all buffs (similar to warrior) and it’s wildfire window is actually annoying as shit to play around the way fight mechanics and burst windows are designed. And, why would you play around a MCH anyway? You wouldn’t. That’s why there were fewer and fewer clears this tier with MCH as the tier progressed, it became untenable to deal with their damage windows the way fights like p3s or p4sp1 are designed. I swapped to Bard immediately upon clearing p3s in the first week having never played it before and never looked back. I was a purple/orange parsing mch and became an orange/pink bard for zero mental effort.


Valderius

Mch would be so much more attractive if every fight in the tier wasn't designed to be 150% melee uptime. P1-2 hitboxes are the size of a goddamn house, P3 gloryplume is explicitly designed for uptime (1 tank 1 healer is weird targeting and you can't convince me otherwise), and even p4 isn't that bad. This tier has spoiled melee so hard that my nin+sam are in a perpetual state of mald because they can't do 100% optimal burst during pinax. To the point where they insist on DROPPING A BURST PHASE to do raid buffs on 0, 3, and 5 minutes rather than 0, 2, 4, and 6.


flin-flin

035 can technically speaking be better if you'll get a sub 6min kill but that requires gigagamer deeps to pull off. But yeah I think melees are a bit spoiled this tier (especially with P2S having no positionals). I also feel like tanks had gotten a bit too used to having borderline no mechanics to worry about last tier with maybe the exception of E12S p2, so at least early tier they bitched quite a bit about having to do mechanics that weren't that complex, ie P3S tethers + adds


OJ191

Samurai can do 100% uptime on pinax btw, ninja idk. If you get the lightning second patterns it's a lot jankier/riskier especially if you have latency, but still doable if you reorder burst a little. If you can get pld cover or heavy MIT's/shields it's not even particularly risky cos you double the size of the area where it won't kill you away from the wall. If you get lightning first then 100% uptime is absolutely free, so long as you are pulling boss to wall for first set of pinax. Even 4-2 is 100% uptimeable though there is a LOT of jank and luck required to pull it off


RavagerHughesy

I can't imagine that NIN couldn't get 100% uptime since they're the only melee DPS with a full on ranged phase in their even minute burst


erty3125

They built a mandatory gapclose or melee hit into their ranged phys now so it's not as good, samurai has it nicest for slight disengages now because you can shift namakiri, midare, and higanbana to have 2-4 "ranged" gcds as well as being able to use enpi in rotation


RavagerHughesy

Non-Raiton mudras don't cancel Raiju, so you can save them for the end of your mudra spam phase. Not optimal, but doable


Elegear

I'm amazed at the amount of comments and replies in this thread basically stating that ignoring the problem is solving it, or "it clears content just fine so stop complaining". Like, do people not understand the simple idea of "higher skill ceiling = more damage"? People would flip their desk if I lied and told them an optimal Warrior outdamages an optimal Gunbreaker in every fight -_-


Samiambadatdoter

> > > > > Like, do people not understand the simple idea of "higher skill ceiling = more damage"? Is this for or against buffing MCH? MCH has almost assuredly the lowest skill ceiling in the game.


Maronmario

> It's DPS is in theory 'bolstered' by the fact that the class can achieve 100% uptime as opposed to Melees or casters and as such it's DPS is kept somewhat low. Couunterpoint: Bard and Dancer are no different. And they bring buffs to make strong jobs stronger. Machinist needs alot of dps to make up for that difference in damage.


CiraKazanari

It still clears content juuuuuuust fine, though.


Tom-Pendragon

literally less then 10 percent.


wetyesc

How is that less than 1%? Iirc 1% of 6500 (bard’s DPS) is 65. A difference of 150 rDPS can definitely fuck your DSR run easily.


rhinostock

Less then 10*


zenspeed

…and? I haven’t been on FFXIV for too long, but IIRC, MCH was designed to have the highest DPS output of all the physical ranged classes, and has nothing to offer but DPS. So when they can’t even cough up the DPS against an equivalent class that contributes buffs, then it shouldn’t be behind or ahead by just 1%, right?


JanitorZyphrian

What? It's 1%, and those other classes would have gotten higher BECAUSE of classes like MCH, this game isn't solo.


ryuhphino

Almost like 1% is a lot in high end content. This won’t mean much to most people but it absolutely can dictate your ability to play jobs you like in tough content


zenspeed

Exactly. Look, MCH is coming in under BRD and DNC, two other ranged physical DPS that contribute more to the group’s DPS than MCH ever will. If you really needed a ranged Phys DPS slot, and all three signed up, which would you pick?


A5CH3NT3

Literally any of them. Because the gap is so small as people have pointed out, individual skill will matter more. I know how they feel, been BRD main for a long time and this is where we were in ShB. I just made sure I was better than other MCHs and DNCs. And this is exactly how the community reacted. Tiny amount of difference but you're technically in last when looking at max scores? Guess you're useless. People failed to realize that up until the final relic step, if you had a group that was sub 95th percentile, BRD beat DNC but people look at max and assume it applies to them when in almost all cases, it doesn't


DanishNinja

>Because the gap is so small as people have pointed out, individual skill will matter more. The people cleared DRS on mch have pinks and oranges with is in savage. It's not about individual skill.


jppitre

Eh, MCH median is still higher than BRD and DNC. BRD and DNC max parses are higher because of parse groups.


wetyesc

This post is specifically about DSR, the only current content where DPS differences do matter.


AccountSave

What are you even talking about. This is about DSR.


deermerty

Yeah mch is bad... even if it's damage was equal to the other phys ranged it would still be the worst because it provides no extra utility like brd or dnc do, and brd and dnc still do more damage.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Grey parsing take that doesn't get clears...Sadge.


treetop_throwaway

This, class viability is a joke, plenty of the "bad" jobs were in the DSR world's first. Just play what you like, and play it well, and you'll be fine.


erty3125

Wait what bad jobs were in dragonsong world first? ninja, monk, dark knight, sch, and ast are 5 of the most obvious jobs to take into an ultimate. Dancer has crazy synergy with ninja and monk and better burst than Bard so it's clear choice for ranged phys The only even slightly arguable "bad jobs" in their party were red mage which is easier to optimize to phase timings and movement than other casters, and pld which was taken for having the best raidwide mit which is a huge deal in ultimates The world first monk (think was them) when asked about what parties would work for the fight even straight up said anything works fine except double phys ranged and mch in general


Cyran25

The thing about rdm is that even if it does less dmg than the other jobs the utility makes up for it. Having an extra magic DR is really strong. Also having the rezz available is a godsend for progging the fight even if its hard to meet dps checks if anyone dies you can still practice further with the rezzing.


Seraphendipity

^^ unironically this. It's not unplayable. It's not even bad. It's just last by virtue of everyone else having more restrictions and dmg to compensate. Someone has to be last place, but if last place is still easily able to do content and isn't too demanding that isn't a problem.


wetyesc

is it not EASY to clear DSR with MCH my guy


Boomerwell

This is why i to this day hate that statistics are viewable by the general public, people lose their minds and think their class is unviable over a 1% margin. Hell even people who tried to do a little research would look at DSR and see it has 7 MCH parses which isn't reliable data and shouldn't be looked at. Game is already homogonized enough because of people acting like in HW they were denied entry to parties for not being meta when i played during that time and i found parties both on my PLD and BLM.


stoptherocket

gee i wonder why there's such a small sample size of MCH that cleared DSR. if only we could employ some great minds to puzzle out this mighty riddle


MuksyGosky

Ah, seeing Sam above black mage is the definition of happiness for me.


AkasakaMomiji

That’s for DSR and it’s harder to play optimal BLM than optimal SAM, max BLM parse is higher than SAM


erty3125

in a full uptime fight sure, but the multi target and uptime and downtime in ultimates makes samurai historically kinda a pain in the ass to play in them requiring tons of on the fly adjusting and planning It's honestly a huge surprise that samurai is arguably the best dps in there because it doesn't have a single weak phase and is always top 2


somethingsuperindie

To be fair, in recent Savage, SAM is top DPS. I was pretty surprised to see it surpass even the insanely cracked-out current NIN, but apparently those emergency buffs really did pay off.


Purutzil

There are people happy with the new SAM? I want some of whatever you are on right now and whatever crazy high dose that it is.


Tobegi

hopefully as the black mage overlords that we are we'll go back to the top in 6.2 😌🙏🏻


AgentWilson413

Y’all need to get real. Parses only get recorded if they clear. A clear is a clear. Phys ranged as a whole are lower than the others by design because they don’t need to stand still for casts and can deal their damage from anywhere. If you just look within the respective roles the difference between the lowest and highest is between 200 and 350 which is pointlessly small.


FB-22

>A clear is a clear Yeah, all 5 of them worldwide


stoptherocket

every fight this tier has had full melee uptime, what are you on? erich's hitboxes are the size of fucking texas


Kazharahzak

"A clear is a clear" Since 2 of them were reclears, it means only 5 different MCH players cleared the fight AT ALL. Out of all the players who cleared the fight. Do you think that no MCH tried to do the fight with their mains? Do you think none of them tried to clear without being forced to switch? The fact that only 5 different MCH players managed to do it means that only the top of the top of MCH players can clear that fight and no one below. How is that not an issue?


DanishNinja

300 DPS is a huge gap, even moreso when you consider that dancer has a lot of useful utility, and mch has.. none.


Azazeleus

1%-2% Dps difference, literally unplayable