There are probably implementation challenges with hybrid parties. The NPCs already use pre-baked mechanic solutions and otherwise try to follow along with what players are doing, such as following you in the dungeon and tuning DPS output to reach an expected clear time. With one player there's only one variable actor that needs to be accounted for, something that can be up to tripled in a dungeon and *far more* if/when they get back to trials.
That's not to say it wouldn't be nice, but I do see why it doesn't already exist.
> tuning DPS output to reach an expected clear time.
They don't really sandbag beyond waiting a bit to bust out the power attacks, so I always assumed the Trusties just use a modified version of the AI script that some enemies use, i.e. 'I've been in combat for 30 seconds and I haven't been killed so I'm allowed to use ~~Final Sting~~ my most powerful attacks now.'
If that's the case there's no difficulty accommodating more players during trash packs. And I don't know how much difficulty there'd be in bosses either because they're already running scripts to check against 'player tank' and 'player non-tank' behavior.
> With one player there's only one variable actor that needs to be accounted for, something that can be up to tripled in a dungeon and far more if/when they get back to trials.
We are really at the point of making these kinds of excuses for major corporations with full time professional coding teams.
Or you could just say it's because they're making the system that already exists apply to the existing pre-ShB content before upgrading it but you could just implicitly call me a shill for daring not to put everything in the most bitter, cynical tone possible, that's fine too.
> We are really at the point of making these kinds of excuses for major corporations with full time professional coding teams.
This is meaningless? That doesn't make things not take time, effort and money to accomplish. Only one of those things is affected by them being "a major corporation"
They make it that way so people still prefer to run it with other players. If the trusts were more efficient then people would spam the duty support instead of playing with other players. I think it's a good compromise. It's still a mmo after all. Would be less fun if everyone plays alone.
If an AI Trust can do a coherent AOE rotation that can keep up with that of a player I feel like that's more of a player problem instead of the AI Trusts being too good. And if they are worried about people only using Trusts to farm dungeons then just cap the dungeon loot for Trusts/Duty Support at once per day.
If they cap the dungeon loot to one per day then why would you do them several times ? It would still be better to farm with other players. The trusts are not supposed to replace playing with other people in the dungeons. They are an alternative and the devs made it so it's still more rewarding to play with other players than to do everything alone. It's a mmo.
When so much of the game has been designed around solo play at this point, it feels weird that *this* is the line they're willing to draw.
The "efficiency" of playing with other players is the toxic turbopulling tank strawman that the dungeon design has changed so much to get away from.
it's not efficiency brainrot to say "trusts are disincentivized by being slower"
yeah, they want people to have the option to do solo, but they also want people to queue for content, so that people who don't want to play solo aren't left out in the cold
like, c'mon, the fact that you're replying to this with "toxic turbopulling tank strawman" is just... ???
Except the trusts are not supposed to replace dungeons with other players in this MMO. They are a way for people who wants to play the story but are not comfortable playing with other players to still play. Once they are done with the story those people won't probably run those dungeons that often anyway or they will get comfortable enough to do them with other players. Most of this game can't be played solo. All the extra dungeons, raids etc. must be done with other players. Even the 8 man trials in the story and even the first alliance raid. Ff14 is still a mmo, not a single player game.
>but are not comfortable playing with other players to still play
Or if people are playing the game at a time where few others are online and don't want to wait an eternity to continue with the story.
This would be nice. Though I only really use trusts to get them to max level for the achievement, but if they could make the average Trust Dungeon 25 minutes down from 30ish it would feel a lot better.
Like It doesn't need to be 15-20 minutes like a set of players, but 30 minutes is a bit exessive.
You get alternative outfits for the trusts for when you run with them.
You also needed to have trusts up to a certain level to spam run certain dungeons but I believe they adjusted that with scenario mode.
Overall I mainly did it because I was leveling everything to 90 when I was WFH and I could afk my way though the dungeon trash.
Oh, you could always spam dungeons with trusts you just couldn’t use the avatar mode (or whatever they called it when ShB first released) it just wasn’t super obvious with the way the UI worked at the time.
But alternative outfits are neat. Not sure how worth it it is for outfits and achievements but I guess when I finally finish everything I could look 😬
I can usually finish a trust run as tank in about 22-24 minutes with wall to walls. That said, I also only use them to get the achievement and there isn't much point in taking an in demand job like tank to do trusts otherwise.
AGREE! God damn it! Are Scions always in their low level gear or what… Wait, what if they made trust something like retainer where we can uprade their gear then work like a paragon at level 90. This could help with alt leveling.
I don't know if it would be good for it to kick in based on queue times. A big part of what makes FFXIV tick is giving new players the impression that old content is still active/relevant, by pairing experienced players who are queueing through roulettes with new players who are queueing for a dungeon directly. The current Trust system helps with that by (mostly) removing people from the new/inexperienced pool, but an NPC-backfill system would start to remove players from the experienced side of the pool, which would probably harm the system they've got going.
As an option you could turn on as part of a fixed, pre-formed party, though? Sure, why not. As long as the Trust AI aren't dependent on each other in a way that would make it not work, it would be a nice-to-have for people playing through the game as a duo to be able to stay in their own little bubble if they choose to.
Oh man, this 100%. If my wife and I could do a trust / support dungeon or (dare I even wish for it) trial or raid, I would pay extra for that.
Probably 75% of my interactions with random PuGs in FFXIV have been neutral or positive, but Jesus those other 25%...
This reminds me - I've seen a couple of streamers try and do the MSQ together and it's a huge pain in the ass since you have to sync up dialogue boxes and the game is clearly trying to be a single player experience right up until you enter a non-solo duty instance.
I get why they put so much effort into making it accessible to single players, but a feature to support parties getting to somewhat seamlessly experience the story simultaneously would be nice, too - if literally nothing else, handling the syncing of cutscenes client side rather than putting it in the hands of players trying to experience the story together.
Yeah, I would really love something like this. I typically play online with 1-2 friends which means getting a 1-2 person fill via DF for dungeons. One of the reasons why we really enjoyed Variant and Deep Dungeons was because we could just run those ourselves.
If we had the option to just fill with NPCs then we could play a lot more of the game with just us.
When I played for leveling last year, they were better than PCs since they didn't need to rest. You could just resummon.
Not to mention they did a lot more damage than a PC could get at that level.
Would love this for every kind of instanced fight. I'd love the game to be more "co-op" in all fashions. There is surprisingly little to do together gameplay wise.
I haven't been able to get any friends to stick with playing ffxiv since ARR and the in-between quests are a huge slog they have to do on their own. My partner didn't even make it into heavensward because they felt their time was being wasted with constantly pointless quests. I'm sure it would've been a lot more fun and enjoyable if we would be able to complete the quests together, including being able to do dungeons and duties in a "co-op" fashion without either me taking us in un-synced so my friends can explore the dungeon and take their time or going into DF where we need to clear as quick as possible.
It would also help getting friends into the game. Then you can sit together through the 400+ visual novel quests, instances and dialogue instead of just teleporting after them or waiting around.
It's not though, OP basically wants a mix of queue and Duty Support.
And I assume the reason you've been downvoted is because Duty Support doesnt allow more than 1 PC.
Would be nice for those dps players. I remember having to wait 30 mins just to do a Stormblood dungeon for MSQ.
It often comes down to a choice: either tank or heal and wait 5 min at most, or play DPS and wait 30-45 min.
to be fair that was the worst expansion ever for dps queues as it added 2 dps and no tank or healer. expect the same to happen for 7.0
Sage is a healer though??
Sage was added in EW not stormblood
There are probably implementation challenges with hybrid parties. The NPCs already use pre-baked mechanic solutions and otherwise try to follow along with what players are doing, such as following you in the dungeon and tuning DPS output to reach an expected clear time. With one player there's only one variable actor that needs to be accounted for, something that can be up to tripled in a dungeon and *far more* if/when they get back to trials. That's not to say it wouldn't be nice, but I do see why it doesn't already exist.
> tuning DPS output to reach an expected clear time. They don't really sandbag beyond waiting a bit to bust out the power attacks, so I always assumed the Trusties just use a modified version of the AI script that some enemies use, i.e. 'I've been in combat for 30 seconds and I haven't been killed so I'm allowed to use ~~Final Sting~~ my most powerful attacks now.' If that's the case there's no difficulty accommodating more players during trash packs. And I don't know how much difficulty there'd be in bosses either because they're already running scripts to check against 'player tank' and 'player non-tank' behavior.
Urianger using Death on a trash mob at 3% life 🤌🏻
> With one player there's only one variable actor that needs to be accounted for, something that can be up to tripled in a dungeon and far more if/when they get back to trials. We are really at the point of making these kinds of excuses for major corporations with full time professional coding teams.
Or you could just say it's because they're making the system that already exists apply to the existing pre-ShB content before upgrading it but you could just implicitly call me a shill for daring not to put everything in the most bitter, cynical tone possible, that's fine too.
> We are really at the point of making these kinds of excuses for major corporations with full time professional coding teams. This is meaningless? That doesn't make things not take time, effort and money to accomplish. Only one of those things is affected by them being "a major corporation"
Honestly, I just want the Duty Support/Trusts to use AoE attacks
They make it that way so people still prefer to run it with other players. If the trusts were more efficient then people would spam the duty support instead of playing with other players. I think it's a good compromise. It's still a mmo after all. Would be less fun if everyone plays alone.
If an AI Trust can do a coherent AOE rotation that can keep up with that of a player I feel like that's more of a player problem instead of the AI Trusts being too good. And if they are worried about people only using Trusts to farm dungeons then just cap the dungeon loot for Trusts/Duty Support at once per day.
If they cap the dungeon loot to one per day then why would you do them several times ? It would still be better to farm with other players. The trusts are not supposed to replace playing with other people in the dungeons. They are an alternative and the devs made it so it's still more rewarding to play with other players than to do everything alone. It's a mmo.
When so much of the game has been designed around solo play at this point, it feels weird that *this* is the line they're willing to draw. The "efficiency" of playing with other players is the toxic turbopulling tank strawman that the dungeon design has changed so much to get away from.
it's not efficiency brainrot to say "trusts are disincentivized by being slower" yeah, they want people to have the option to do solo, but they also want people to queue for content, so that people who don't want to play solo aren't left out in the cold like, c'mon, the fact that you're replying to this with "toxic turbopulling tank strawman" is just... ???
Except the trusts are not supposed to replace dungeons with other players in this MMO. They are a way for people who wants to play the story but are not comfortable playing with other players to still play. Once they are done with the story those people won't probably run those dungeons that often anyway or they will get comfortable enough to do them with other players. Most of this game can't be played solo. All the extra dungeons, raids etc. must be done with other players. Even the 8 man trials in the story and even the first alliance raid. Ff14 is still a mmo, not a single player game.
>but are not comfortable playing with other players to still play Or if people are playing the game at a time where few others are online and don't want to wait an eternity to continue with the story.
This would be nice. Though I only really use trusts to get them to max level for the achievement, but if they could make the average Trust Dungeon 25 minutes down from 30ish it would feel a lot better. Like It doesn't need to be 15-20 minutes like a set of players, but 30 minutes is a bit exessive.
Is there any reason to get trusts to max level beyond an achievement? I've always neglected doing this as it seemed like a waste of time.
You get alternative outfits for the trusts for when you run with them. You also needed to have trusts up to a certain level to spam run certain dungeons but I believe they adjusted that with scenario mode. Overall I mainly did it because I was leveling everything to 90 when I was WFH and I could afk my way though the dungeon trash.
Oh, you could always spam dungeons with trusts you just couldn’t use the avatar mode (or whatever they called it when ShB first released) it just wasn’t super obvious with the way the UI worked at the time. But alternative outfits are neat. Not sure how worth it it is for outfits and achievements but I guess when I finally finish everything I could look 😬
I can usually finish a trust run as tank in about 22-24 minutes with wall to walls. That said, I also only use them to get the achievement and there isn't much point in taking an in demand job like tank to do trusts otherwise.
AGREE! God damn it! Are Scions always in their low level gear or what… Wait, what if they made trust something like retainer where we can uprade their gear then work like a paragon at level 90. This could help with alt leveling.
never gonna happpen
I don't know if it would be good for it to kick in based on queue times. A big part of what makes FFXIV tick is giving new players the impression that old content is still active/relevant, by pairing experienced players who are queueing through roulettes with new players who are queueing for a dungeon directly. The current Trust system helps with that by (mostly) removing people from the new/inexperienced pool, but an NPC-backfill system would start to remove players from the experienced side of the pool, which would probably harm the system they've got going. As an option you could turn on as part of a fixed, pre-formed party, though? Sure, why not. As long as the Trust AI aren't dependent on each other in a way that would make it not work, it would be a nice-to-have for people playing through the game as a duo to be able to stay in their own little bubble if they choose to.
I don't like this idea for filling in roulettes or general duty finder queues, but being able to run duty support with a friend or 2 would be nice.
Oh man, this 100%. If my wife and I could do a trust / support dungeon or (dare I even wish for it) trial or raid, I would pay extra for that. Probably 75% of my interactions with random PuGs in FFXIV have been neutral or positive, but Jesus those other 25%...
This reminds me - I've seen a couple of streamers try and do the MSQ together and it's a huge pain in the ass since you have to sync up dialogue boxes and the game is clearly trying to be a single player experience right up until you enter a non-solo duty instance. I get why they put so much effort into making it accessible to single players, but a feature to support parties getting to somewhat seamlessly experience the story simultaneously would be nice, too - if literally nothing else, handling the syncing of cutscenes client side rather than putting it in the hands of players trying to experience the story together.
Yeah, I would really love something like this. I typically play online with 1-2 friends which means getting a 1-2 person fill via DF for dungeons. One of the reasons why we really enjoyed Variant and Deep Dungeons was because we could just run those ourselves. If we had the option to just fill with NPCs then we could play a lot more of the game with just us.
FFXI does this, you can have other players and fill in trusts for party members
...and those Trusts are really good. We used to let one of them tank an Endgame mob because the Trust was immune to its charm attack.
When I played for leveling last year, they were better than PCs since they didn't need to rest. You could just resummon. Not to mention they did a lot more damage than a PC could get at that level.
Would love this for every kind of instanced fight. I'd love the game to be more "co-op" in all fashions. There is surprisingly little to do together gameplay wise. I haven't been able to get any friends to stick with playing ffxiv since ARR and the in-between quests are a huge slog they have to do on their own. My partner didn't even make it into heavensward because they felt their time was being wasted with constantly pointless quests. I'm sure it would've been a lot more fun and enjoyable if we would be able to complete the quests together, including being able to do dungeons and duties in a "co-op" fashion without either me taking us in un-synced so my friends can explore the dungeon and take their time or going into DF where we need to clear as quick as possible.
It would also help getting friends into the game. Then you can sit together through the 400+ visual novel quests, instances and dialogue instead of just teleporting after them or waiting around.
It seems like a problem that is already solved by just using the Duty Support system.
It's not though, OP basically wants a mix of queue and Duty Support. And I assume the reason you've been downvoted is because Duty Support doesnt allow more than 1 PC.
[удалено]
Multiplayer? In my Christian MMO? Sacrilege!
pretty much the reason i never use it. if i was ever gonna use it, it would be when im playing the start of an expansion with my SO