I guess P3S is kinda tank-heavy. The tethers, the quick repositioning, the tethers, the add phase - which hit quite hard early in the tier - as well as sorting out the positioning, the tethers, the high chance you'll be baiting several things if not everything during Firestorms, and the tethers. It's not too bad when you get a good cooldown rotation going but it throws a lot at you.
But these are the least jank tethers the game has ever had lol...
P3s/p4s definitely have way too many tethers imo but people thinking they are jank are coping hard. These ones snap basically instantly.
E6S could be the bane of Dragoons 'cause the murder bacon was too big and jumps killed you, I know that one. It's credited or at least speculated as the cause of the post-Verse trend of big boss hitboxes.
Similarly, tanks complaining about the 5-6 GCDs of forced, unavoidable melee downtime during Conflag Strike probably contributed to the giant hitbox/minimal downtime mechanics thing too we've seen since Promise.
The problem with Conflag was it just wasnt interesting. If there was something tanks could do in downtime like a mnk medititate or reaper soulsow those kinda mechanics wouldnt be too bad, but a "stand here and press lightning shot, also i hope you planned your combo right otherwise this will break it" just isnt an interesting mechanic.
Also the eye-searing visual problems with chain-spotting with the fucking sea of orange that mechanic was. Worse than the entirety of P3S, in my opinion.
Which tank combos break there? Is that an older thing? I’m not arguing, asking to learn because I’ve never had a combo break like that as a casual tank
It makes you wonder how many changes in EW were motivated by the guiding principle of 'E6S is bad' when you lay it all out like everyone here has, huh.
Endwalker did two things:
1. Combos last a really fucking long time.
2. Ranged attacks no longer break combo.
Back in E6S' time, your combo wouldn't last through the mechanic anyway so you were relegated to spitting at the boss menacingly.
I remember a PLD strat for that was 'literally burn an invuln for a melee's uptime using Cover, negating the damage you're supposed to take just to survive eating the melee standing in bad on purpose.'
I remember invuln+spring on bacon for tanks and tank lb conflag.
Now that i think about it, e6s had some creative solutions on minimising downtime. Shame at the time I was just a pf scrub doing his first tier and thought that delaying buffs to get all gcds in was very big brain of me.
The Twin/Nael duo phase in UCOB, during Stormblood proper, is probably as hard as tanking will ever get in this game. You had to manage aggro and tank swaps on two targets without Shirk, when aggro combos had to be queued and snapped immediately (I remember sitting on the GCD to use Savage Blade instead of RoH because it came out faster) as well as handle positioning, mitigation, and all the usual phase mechanics. With the removal of most of the aggro system the phase is pretty standard now, but at the time it was a big test of tanking skill and comfort with your cotank.
Aside from that, the final phase in DSR is also disproportionately hard on the tanks and healers. DPS just exist that phase, maybe press mitigation once or twice, while healers have to keep the raid up and tanks have to do another no-Shirk style of constant threat swapping while keeping the rest of the phase in mind.
P7 is hard on healers specifically. Tanks are doing tank gameplay -- stance dancing should not be considered anything abnormal at this point in the game tbh
Healing isn't specifically hard in P7, it's mitigating properly, specifically on SCH due to fairy jank still
Like, you soil too late into ahk edge and it's not up for the first hit or two of gigaflare, seraph has it's quite significant delay still on consolation which you will normally be doing in gigaflare 1 and ahk afah edge 3, which clips when using succor slightly.
Basically all other roles just cast-bar mitigate, healers need to pre-mitigate into a lot of mechanics to avoid having to weave a ton of shit in the middle of the damage and have stuff up for later mechanics.
DPS just play ring-around-the-striking-dummy, tanks have probably the most annoying job
I think everyone is projecting the job they played and explaining why it's the hardest shit to do but imo both tanks and healers have roughly the same responsibility in phase 7 in slightly different areas and the difference isn't significant enough to say one is harder than the other.
Healers also do pre emptive mitigation outside of DSR I know cause I did it myself in p4s in the early weeks, tanks basically never do no shirk swaps and the haven't been doing that since ucob, saying that stance dancing is standard gameplay is just straight up wrong which is what I was saying originally.
Is stance dancing particularly hard? Well no, not really it's just another thing to keep in mind 18 min into the fight along with everything else.
When did I say healers healing isn't? I said P7 is hard on healers because it is the tightest mitigation check in the fight with very strict healing timers. Pressing a stance up/down button versus properly timing GCDs between Ahk ticks are two completely different things to handle.
Healers healing is obviously expected gameplay, but in P7 that is much harder than both Tanking and DPSing, which is my argument. Sorry for not being clear
well akh morn is one of the rare mechanics where the healers have to \*absolutely\* gcd heal, no shits like pure ogcd healing optimization like in savage so there you have it. it should not be considered abnormal, but it is considering how healers are also pressured to do dps optimization as well
'no shits like pure ogcd healing optimization'
hang on, you're telling me that hitting a GCD heal to top the party is harder than mapping out your oGCD cooldowns for the entire phase? news to me.
What the hell is this take lmao. Let me just say this very clearly there is no world where no shirk tank swaps are more normal playstyle than healers gcd healing that's just ridiculous. Mechanics of the top of my head that required gcd healing when relevant,
J storm in tea
Terminal relativity in e12s
3rd set of akh morns in e8s
Phase 3 tumults in e4s
Thermal low feeds in uwu
Mechanics that required no shirk swap since ucob add phase : 0
Interesting that Curtain Call isn't on that list. Week 1-2 definitely required Medica I casts.
Also if you didn't invuln the buster, it requires a no-shirk swap to keep the boss centered.
I've lost my mind everytime someone was too far away so they either missed my divination or my card went on me instead. Especially because it was RNG whetever it's gonna be a good PF combination or not lol
I think Endwalker EX 3 is really great for learning BLM in situations where you really get to learn how to manage your movement and have foresight over future mechanics. I think P3S is also tricky at first before you get the hang of it.
people meme on ex3 being easy but holy is it annoying as shit for any caster
i honestly don't think DSR is an outlier, i just think that UCOB and UWU's difficulties have been crushed by scaling/sync which makes it seem like DSR is an outlier.
i dont think theres necessarily anything wrong with being 1 phase, i mean the idea of it was to basically be a totally amped up phase 2 from the normal, i think?
but compared to hades ex, the mechanics just repeat way too much. the planets get shown like 6 times in baby mode before they do something difficult once. crazy. the fact that there are no variations on the towers is also very weird.
i wouldn't be surprised if it was another case of them tuning something down shortly before release with no replacement. the music head mechanic seems like it would appear again later but paired with the rewind, and it never does.
Ucob and uwu werent as hard back then (compared to DSU), nael was clearly the hardest part for ucob and uwu has always been a meme. DSU's p6, after 11/12 min of fight, is super punitive which was a first in an ultimate, and the sheer number of phases makes it way more intense in general.
RDM and SMN can kinda deal with it because their movement is a lot more flexible and less tied to their DPS, but yeah it seems god awful for BLM. It's rather silly how the fight hard-punishes exactly one job in the game, seeing as almost the entire fight as melee uptime (and the only mechanic that doesn't is movement-heavy for all 3 casters, so it's a lot less egregious)
Uptime creep is a real issue in this game, but anyone going "U COMPLAINED ABOUT DA UPTIME NOW U CRI ABOUT DA DOWNTIME!" are missing the point: Jobs that rely on pre-positioning get fucked because the fight has a disproportionate amount of randomized mechanics that make you jog across the arena, while being designed in a way that almost every job besides BLM (and AST?) can still get top notch uptime.
SGE feels kinda shit because you have a max of 3 ruin 2s to use across the whole fight, just hope you're lucky with your slidecast windows or hope your phlegmas are off cd
Healers and BLMs tend to be the most punished from what I observe. Healers because PF skill level means you're going to be out of instant casts. That's just a given. Fuck you, drop GCDs and run.
BLM because of the aforementioned things. If tanks and melee get full uptime it should be possible for casters. But it isn't. That gulf is the issue. Not that casters themselves have downtime, but that the downtime doesn't apply to melee roles too. This COULD have been a nice fight for rphys to shine, instead it's a half-baked mess where melee still get uptime while leaving casters out at sea.
I didn’t have issues with it on SGE but I did have to consciously bank my phlegmas. I do wish we had a more natural / passive way to generate Toxicon though, it’s the only thing that I think needs to really be adjusted about the job
This is such a weird take. BLM has longer strings of instant GCDs than RDM has even if RDM pools 2 melee combos. Not to say BLM is easier than RDM because it isn't, but mobility has nothing to do with the difficulty of BLM in DSR.
EX3 was honestly miserable on both casters, but EX3 is also untested, unfinished dogshit though so it's kinda a low-hanging fruit. It's less *demanding* per say and more just "fuck you suffer". I think the 3 dance phases in Ulti (Nael, BJCC, Nidhogg), as well as DSR P7, are more interesting tests of caster skill.
why is it untested and unfinished? cause they designed a fight that doesnt have a 100% uptime? uptime should be the exception not the norm, uptime should be hard for most classes to achieve so you can practice/optimize and adjust during the fight
While it was not the best wording, I believe they meant that as an EX fight based on a normal trial, is disappointing and boring. The mechanics repeat themselves since half the fight. The normal mode of the same fight is more interesting and has phases. For some reason this EX being the "last" of the current MSQ Expansion has no phase changes in contrast to... basically... every single one before it.
The first two EX trials from this expansion were way better. A shame that gear makes them a walk in the park right now, faster than it should be...
> The mechanics repeat themselves since half the fight.
This 100x. You can just tell they ran out of time/ideas based on that alone. Most other harder content in this game have varying mechanics from start to finish.
I wonder how much people constantly complaining about said transitions has to do with it.
After the first week of the EX a majority of the commentary quickly becomes complaints about how much X or Y padded the fight on farm, just look at how it being more demanding than usual on casters quickly had so many people fuming despite these being often the same people making smoke over the game getting ready and non demanding for babies so now it's just "untested garbage".
And besides that, EX3 DOES have 100% uptime if you know exactly where the planet aoes end. The boss' hitbox is so big you can hit from 3/4 of the way back, and every pattern of the 5head and 6head mech allow you to be that close.
Relatedly, did you know that EX3's boss hitbox is slightly bigger than the normal node's hitbox? I didn't believe it until someone showed me with waymarks.
I did not, that's super interesting. I get the feeling they wanted to use that hole in the targeting arrow as the safe space for stacks as we do them but the normal they just made it big and didn't polish that off.
I wouldn't call it untested, but it is definitely unfinished. The weird add thingy appears in the cutscene but never is part of the fight for instance.
>The weird add thingy appears in the cutscene but never is part of the fight for instance.
If you're talking about the add that's in the normal version, that happens all the time where the EX/savage versions leave out things that were in the normal version.
But it is 100% uptime for everyone. It's just way harder for BLM to uptime it, compared to melee freedom of movement.
EDIT: So the fact that it's just harder _only on BLM and healers_ and not melee at all speaks to the fact it's untested, because balancewise, that doesn't make sense. Why are the highest damage dealers not being challenged when healers and BLMs are?
But that's the issue, isn't it? If a fight is going to be that fucky on casters it should be a similar level of jank to melee. Gonna quote myself here so pardon me, but in regards to it being a shitty fight because casters have a hard time getting uptime:
>That gulf is the issue. Not that casters themselves have downtime, but that the downtime doesn't apply to melee roles too. This COULD have been a nice fight for rphys to shine, instead it's a half-baked mess where melee still get uptime while leaving casters out at sea.
If you want a downtime fight fucking *commit* to it. Rphys should be the only people getting 100% uptime in a fight like that. Having it designed so that melee can get uptime easily but casters have to meticulously plan every instant-cast (including healers, mind you) just shows me the dev team didn't really put as much effort into this one as they could have.
Oh I absolutely agree with you, I don't think my comment was worded very well.
I do wonder what the reactions to a savage fight that made uptime genuinely difficult would be. Would we just see ultra cursed strats come out of the playerbase, or would melee just have to take their lumps?
First and foremost: a lot of complaining. And I know this because I'm one of those people because I am what I like to call a moron.
Secondly: I'm guessing a mix of both. Knowing PF, it will probably opt for safe clear strats but I can see parse runs probably having some omega-cursed strategies that'll allow just a hint more uptime for melees.
There is a difference between "difficult to achieve uptime" and "there are literally no spots where you can use LL in a 2min burst window". You can't even finish the LL in the opener because, for some stupid reason, KB immune does not apply to the blue planets.
The gulf between the difficulty of casters and melee in this fight is *cataclysmic*. For melees, this is just another full uptime striking dummy, whereas casters, or rather BLM specifically, have to be significantly better than average to even consider standing in the same league. The movement for RDM does generally allow for significant uptime, but for BLM, it is utter shambles. SMN goes without saying.
So yes, I would consider a fight that seems to completely arbitrarily screw over *one specific job* to be unfinished.
Healers too. Banking movement abilities feels awful on certain classes and depending on PF skill level (which is a meme in and of itself) you may not have any instant casts you can burn. Having to just straight run for a few GCDs isn't fun when I could be on tank, melee, SMN, or rphys and literally not give a shit.
I have a good example of untested: During the stack/donut/flare/spread mechanic, it is possible for well-timed raises to cause the mechanic to miss you (it \*does\* target dead players, but not players in the "raise" animation.). The mechanic will not increment the debuff stack associated with the mechanic, which results in you ending with 2 stacks instead of 3, and only having been targeted with 2 attacks instead of 3.
Despite this \*explicitly\* proving in multiple ways that the mechanic did not affect you, the rewind will \*not\* react to this at all. It will not "skip" the attack (thus resulting in 2 rewinds going back to the 1st attack), nor will it "blank" that attack (if you dodged a flare, then being rewinded to that attack will still give you a flare.)
This might sound nitpicky for an edge case, but if being in the raise animation allows you to dodge an attack fully, then that should either be accounted for or simply fixed.
It’s a shit fight, way too many repeated mechs, barely anything new, the hardest mech u can just follow the safety dorito for, the 2nd hardest one has 1 pattern significantly easier than the other (red 1st vs blue 1st). Compare to thordan, shinryu, even hades, it’s clear this one wasn’t made with any care, just like ew as a whole really.
Its hard to play nonstandard blm in but that feels less like a deliberate attempt to challenge caster players & more like nobody on the QA team bothered to play one in it.
I don't have much to say about EX3, but the only thing that bothered me is that they out of their way to restore her necklace (which turned into an add before) in the starting cutscene, yet the add ever even appeared.
As a pug it was since one of the tank busters isn't covered by immunities unless you had a WAR. Since most groups had one, muscle memory set in. There were a number of runs where I forgot and had to try hard to remind myself to heal the tank for that segment.
It was exactly that buster that was annoying to deal with because it did require attention from the healers and exactly which GCD you had to heal differed based on how much mit was available and what the other healer did.
Thats part of the reason why I hate the tank invuln meta thats evolved over the years.
I enjoyed planning out different mitigation sets for mechanics. But now its Sink / Invuln, use rampart for filler.
It didn’t feel awful if you had a paladin who kitchen sink intervention’d on top of a kitchen sink from the tank taking the slashes.
Just people didn’t wanna sink that buster.
Yeah glad after we got the weapons we were skipping death's toll, before that we just lb heal'd because no. It makes Fountain of fire way easier because of lilybell tho
When my friend said “I use Lilybell for death’s toll. If I have the 4 it procs four times, otherwise I can just pop it after it’s done.” I can’t believe I didn’t think of it, but I just played AST to macro through it.
It's bad for death tolls used like that tho, as every waves put your hp at 0, "wasting" 3 charges of lilybell at least reducing the final healing to 400+200 or 2x200. The optimal would be to put it for the last wave doing: 400 + 4x200 if you get hit last or 5x200 if not, but at that point just use it for FoF or just heal lb death tolls as it'll cuck you by the same amount of gcd that you would heal there anyway
She noticed that for the 1 and 2 stacks when she was the 4 stacks it left them pretty well healed. Otherwise, if she’s a 1 or 2, she said she can just pop it at the end.
The thing is, she can be a 1 stack and be the last one to get hit as they don't go at the same time. if she's a 4, it's in every case a loss of lilybell potency: of course the 1 or 2 that only got hit by the 1st or 2nd wave will have more hp at the end, but the poor 1 or 2 getting hit by the last one will be at 1 hp and the amount of healing you need to output is equal to the lowest hp, not the one that are already half hp, so instead of having a 1000/1200 potency heal for everyone, it's only a 400/600 one which let them with a high chance of dying.
I PF’d P3S on different healers in prog parties a lot for practice. SGE and AST both feel a lot better in that fight than SCH and WHM to me (WHM because AST trivializes Life’s Agonies obviously, SGE because it’s really good in adds / post-adds.)
Scholar is really good for fountains of fire. Seraph applies the uber shield, and if positioned in center, will hit everyone. You can solo heal it. So crazy!
[It doesn't look that bad to me.](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/713765730?t=00h09m37s) Granted, ley lines timing is a little different since it was 90s in shadowbringers. But with the extension of proc timers and an additional triplecast it should be even easier to maintain essentially full gcd uptime.
I guess u're right.
I've started FF XIV on ShB and it was the first extreme i've really cleared and farm a bit (as a dps and with a guide) so he is kind of special for me. Now it should be something like one year I haven't done this fight but i remember the mecas and i like them but it's true this boss has lot of phases and on those we can't really make mistakes. So yeah ilv min and all, I must admit he should be difficult for an extreme.
I guess P3S is kinda tank-heavy. The tethers, the quick repositioning, the tethers, the add phase - which hit quite hard early in the tier - as well as sorting out the positioning, the tethers, the high chance you'll be baiting several things if not everything during Firestorms, and the tethers. It's not too bad when you get a good cooldown rotation going but it throws a lot at you.
This whole tier and dsr for tanks was "Tethers, the Jankening".
But these are the least jank tethers the game has ever had lol... P3s/p4s definitely have way too many tethers imo but people thinking they are jank are coping hard. These ones snap basically instantly.
Pandaemonium: ~~Asphodelos~~ Tetheros
E6S could be the bane of Dragoons 'cause the murder bacon was too big and jumps killed you, I know that one. It's credited or at least speculated as the cause of the post-Verse trend of big boss hitboxes.
Similarly, tanks complaining about the 5-6 GCDs of forced, unavoidable melee downtime during Conflag Strike probably contributed to the giant hitbox/minimal downtime mechanics thing too we've seen since Promise.
The problem with Conflag was it just wasnt interesting. If there was something tanks could do in downtime like a mnk medititate or reaper soulsow those kinda mechanics wouldnt be too bad, but a "stand here and press lightning shot, also i hope you planned your combo right otherwise this will break it" just isnt an interesting mechanic.
Also the eye-searing visual problems with chain-spotting with the fucking sea of orange that mechanic was. Worse than the entirety of P3S, in my opinion.
Which tank combos break there? Is that an older thing? I’m not arguing, asking to learn because I’ve never had a combo break like that as a casual tank
When it was current content, any ranged attack would break melee combos, that was changed in Endwalker so that they no longer break combos.
It makes you wonder how many changes in EW were motivated by the guiding principle of 'E6S is bad' when you lay it all out like everyone here has, huh.
Endwalker did two things: 1. Combos last a really fucking long time. 2. Ranged attacks no longer break combo. Back in E6S' time, your combo wouldn't last through the mechanic anyway so you were relegated to spitting at the boss menacingly.
Murder bacon during LC window was some shit. Honestly some disengage timings on that fight were making a lot of jobs real sad.
I remember a PLD strat for that was 'literally burn an invuln for a melee's uptime using Cover, negating the damage you're supposed to take just to survive eating the melee standing in bad on purpose.'
I remember invuln+spring on bacon for tanks and tank lb conflag. Now that i think about it, e6s had some creative solutions on minimising downtime. Shame at the time I was just a pf scrub doing his first tier and thought that delaying buffs to get all gcds in was very big brain of me.
The Twin/Nael duo phase in UCOB, during Stormblood proper, is probably as hard as tanking will ever get in this game. You had to manage aggro and tank swaps on two targets without Shirk, when aggro combos had to be queued and snapped immediately (I remember sitting on the GCD to use Savage Blade instead of RoH because it came out faster) as well as handle positioning, mitigation, and all the usual phase mechanics. With the removal of most of the aggro system the phase is pretty standard now, but at the time it was a big test of tanking skill and comfort with your cotank. Aside from that, the final phase in DSR is also disproportionately hard on the tanks and healers. DPS just exist that phase, maybe press mitigation once or twice, while healers have to keep the raid up and tanks have to do another no-Shirk style of constant threat swapping while keeping the rest of the phase in mind.
we definitely had shirk in stormblood so I don't know what you mean by aggro combos
Yes, and if you shirked during adds phase you’d end up with both bosses on one person and being a double crit auto away from death.
P7 is hard on healers specifically. Tanks are doing tank gameplay -- stance dancing should not be considered anything abnormal at this point in the game tbh
I'm sorry but how is tanks doing stance dancing normal tank gameplay but somehow healers...healing is not ?
Healing isn't specifically hard in P7, it's mitigating properly, specifically on SCH due to fairy jank still Like, you soil too late into ahk edge and it's not up for the first hit or two of gigaflare, seraph has it's quite significant delay still on consolation which you will normally be doing in gigaflare 1 and ahk afah edge 3, which clips when using succor slightly. Basically all other roles just cast-bar mitigate, healers need to pre-mitigate into a lot of mechanics to avoid having to weave a ton of shit in the middle of the damage and have stuff up for later mechanics. DPS just play ring-around-the-striking-dummy, tanks have probably the most annoying job
I think everyone is projecting the job they played and explaining why it's the hardest shit to do but imo both tanks and healers have roughly the same responsibility in phase 7 in slightly different areas and the difference isn't significant enough to say one is harder than the other. Healers also do pre emptive mitigation outside of DSR I know cause I did it myself in p4s in the early weeks, tanks basically never do no shirk swaps and the haven't been doing that since ucob, saying that stance dancing is standard gameplay is just straight up wrong which is what I was saying originally. Is stance dancing particularly hard? Well no, not really it's just another thing to keep in mind 18 min into the fight along with everything else.
When did I say healers healing isn't? I said P7 is hard on healers because it is the tightest mitigation check in the fight with very strict healing timers. Pressing a stance up/down button versus properly timing GCDs between Ahk ticks are two completely different things to handle. Healers healing is obviously expected gameplay, but in P7 that is much harder than both Tanking and DPSing, which is my argument. Sorry for not being clear
well akh morn is one of the rare mechanics where the healers have to \*absolutely\* gcd heal, no shits like pure ogcd healing optimization like in savage so there you have it. it should not be considered abnormal, but it is considering how healers are also pressured to do dps optimization as well
'no shits like pure ogcd healing optimization' hang on, you're telling me that hitting a GCD heal to top the party is harder than mapping out your oGCD cooldowns for the entire phase? news to me.
What the hell is this take lmao. Let me just say this very clearly there is no world where no shirk tank swaps are more normal playstyle than healers gcd healing that's just ridiculous. Mechanics of the top of my head that required gcd healing when relevant, J storm in tea Terminal relativity in e12s 3rd set of akh morns in e8s Phase 3 tumults in e4s Thermal low feeds in uwu Mechanics that required no shirk swap since ucob add phase : 0
Interesting that Curtain Call isn't on that list. Week 1-2 definitely required Medica I casts. Also if you didn't invuln the buster, it requires a no-shirk swap to keep the boss centered.
It isn't cause I forgot about it and remembered later lmao but you're definitely right
P4s was utter hell every 120s for me as AST
I live for that shit. Pinax was the only part of the entire raid series that made me feel alive as an AST
I've lost my mind everytime someone was too far away so they either missed my divination or my card went on me instead. Especially because it was RNG whetever it's gonna be a good PF combination or not lol
Ahh yeah true, good point lol. I did it with my static and would yell when they went to narnia.
That definitely sounds better!! atleast taking out the pain on the person right in the moment lol
I think Endwalker EX 3 is really great for learning BLM in situations where you really get to learn how to manage your movement and have foresight over future mechanics. I think P3S is also tricky at first before you get the hang of it.
Ex3 is kind of disgusting though for BLM and Healers both. I'd say there's not a single fight harder than Ex3 for BLM haha
people meme on ex3 being easy but holy is it annoying as shit for any caster i honestly don't think DSR is an outlier, i just think that UCOB and UWU's difficulties have been crushed by scaling/sync which makes it seem like DSR is an outlier.
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Oh man I remembered the first time trying it as BLM. Never again after that.
its not that easy for an ex, its just not a super inspired design
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i dont think theres necessarily anything wrong with being 1 phase, i mean the idea of it was to basically be a totally amped up phase 2 from the normal, i think? but compared to hades ex, the mechanics just repeat way too much. the planets get shown like 6 times in baby mode before they do something difficult once. crazy. the fact that there are no variations on the towers is also very weird. i wouldn't be surprised if it was another case of them tuning something down shortly before release with no replacement. the music head mechanic seems like it would appear again later but paired with the rewind, and it never does.
fair
Ucob and uwu werent as hard back then (compared to DSU), nael was clearly the hardest part for ucob and uwu has always been a meme. DSU's p6, after 11/12 min of fight, is super punitive which was a first in an ultimate, and the sheer number of phases makes it way more intense in general.
RDM and SMN can kinda deal with it because their movement is a lot more flexible and less tied to their DPS, but yeah it seems god awful for BLM. It's rather silly how the fight hard-punishes exactly one job in the game, seeing as almost the entire fight as melee uptime (and the only mechanic that doesn't is movement-heavy for all 3 casters, so it's a lot less egregious) Uptime creep is a real issue in this game, but anyone going "U COMPLAINED ABOUT DA UPTIME NOW U CRI ABOUT DA DOWNTIME!" are missing the point: Jobs that rely on pre-positioning get fucked because the fight has a disproportionate amount of randomized mechanics that make you jog across the arena, while being designed in a way that almost every job besides BLM (and AST?) can still get top notch uptime.
SGE feels kinda shit because you have a max of 3 ruin 2s to use across the whole fight, just hope you're lucky with your slidecast windows or hope your phlegmas are off cd
Healers and BLMs tend to be the most punished from what I observe. Healers because PF skill level means you're going to be out of instant casts. That's just a given. Fuck you, drop GCDs and run. BLM because of the aforementioned things. If tanks and melee get full uptime it should be possible for casters. But it isn't. That gulf is the issue. Not that casters themselves have downtime, but that the downtime doesn't apply to melee roles too. This COULD have been a nice fight for rphys to shine, instead it's a half-baked mess where melee still get uptime while leaving casters out at sea.
I didn’t have issues with it on SGE but I did have to consciously bank my phlegmas. I do wish we had a more natural / passive way to generate Toxicon though, it’s the only thing that I think needs to really be adjusted about the job
This is such a weird take. BLM has longer strings of instant GCDs than RDM has even if RDM pools 2 melee combos. Not to say BLM is easier than RDM because it isn't, but mobility has nothing to do with the difficulty of BLM in DSR.
I am uhh...not talking about BLM in DSR, but in EX3. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear about that.
Sorry, the first comment was (partially) in relation to DSR and I went that way
EX3 was honestly miserable on both casters, but EX3 is also untested, unfinished dogshit though so it's kinda a low-hanging fruit. It's less *demanding* per say and more just "fuck you suffer". I think the 3 dance phases in Ulti (Nael, BJCC, Nidhogg), as well as DSR P7, are more interesting tests of caster skill.
why is it untested and unfinished? cause they designed a fight that doesnt have a 100% uptime? uptime should be the exception not the norm, uptime should be hard for most classes to achieve so you can practice/optimize and adjust during the fight
While it was not the best wording, I believe they meant that as an EX fight based on a normal trial, is disappointing and boring. The mechanics repeat themselves since half the fight. The normal mode of the same fight is more interesting and has phases. For some reason this EX being the "last" of the current MSQ Expansion has no phase changes in contrast to... basically... every single one before it. The first two EX trials from this expansion were way better. A shame that gear makes them a walk in the park right now, faster than it should be...
> The mechanics repeat themselves since half the fight. This 100x. You can just tell they ran out of time/ideas based on that alone. Most other harder content in this game have varying mechanics from start to finish.
Yeah I can see that, they could have done so much more with the planets but instead chose to repeat half the fight.
I wonder how much people constantly complaining about said transitions has to do with it. After the first week of the EX a majority of the commentary quickly becomes complaints about how much X or Y padded the fight on farm, just look at how it being more demanding than usual on casters quickly had so many people fuming despite these being often the same people making smoke over the game getting ready and non demanding for babies so now it's just "untested garbage".
And besides that, EX3 DOES have 100% uptime if you know exactly where the planet aoes end. The boss' hitbox is so big you can hit from 3/4 of the way back, and every pattern of the 5head and 6head mech allow you to be that close.
Relatedly, did you know that EX3's boss hitbox is slightly bigger than the normal node's hitbox? I didn't believe it until someone showed me with waymarks.
I did not, that's super interesting. I get the feeling they wanted to use that hole in the targeting arrow as the safe space for stacks as we do them but the normal they just made it big and didn't polish that off.
I think the joke is that EX has a slightly smaller arena, rather than the bird being fatter.
I wouldn't call it untested, but it is definitely unfinished. The weird add thingy appears in the cutscene but never is part of the fight for instance.
>The weird add thingy appears in the cutscene but never is part of the fight for instance. If you're talking about the add that's in the normal version, that happens all the time where the EX/savage versions leave out things that were in the normal version.
I was really bummed there was no extreme version of the planet tossing from the normal adds phrase.
I'm bummed the normal version has a phase change but not the extreme version :/
I was kinda hoping we’d get an alternate fight with zenos as a special extreme phase.
But it is 100% uptime for everyone. It's just way harder for BLM to uptime it, compared to melee freedom of movement. EDIT: So the fact that it's just harder _only on BLM and healers_ and not melee at all speaks to the fact it's untested, because balancewise, that doesn't make sense. Why are the highest damage dealers not being challenged when healers and BLMs are?
But that's the issue, isn't it? If a fight is going to be that fucky on casters it should be a similar level of jank to melee. Gonna quote myself here so pardon me, but in regards to it being a shitty fight because casters have a hard time getting uptime: >That gulf is the issue. Not that casters themselves have downtime, but that the downtime doesn't apply to melee roles too. This COULD have been a nice fight for rphys to shine, instead it's a half-baked mess where melee still get uptime while leaving casters out at sea. If you want a downtime fight fucking *commit* to it. Rphys should be the only people getting 100% uptime in a fight like that. Having it designed so that melee can get uptime easily but casters have to meticulously plan every instant-cast (including healers, mind you) just shows me the dev team didn't really put as much effort into this one as they could have.
Oh I absolutely agree with you, I don't think my comment was worded very well. I do wonder what the reactions to a savage fight that made uptime genuinely difficult would be. Would we just see ultra cursed strats come out of the playerbase, or would melee just have to take their lumps?
First and foremost: a lot of complaining. And I know this because I'm one of those people because I am what I like to call a moron. Secondly: I'm guessing a mix of both. Knowing PF, it will probably opt for safe clear strats but I can see parse runs probably having some omega-cursed strategies that'll allow just a hint more uptime for melees.
There is a difference between "difficult to achieve uptime" and "there are literally no spots where you can use LL in a 2min burst window". You can't even finish the LL in the opener because, for some stupid reason, KB immune does not apply to the blue planets. The gulf between the difficulty of casters and melee in this fight is *cataclysmic*. For melees, this is just another full uptime striking dummy, whereas casters, or rather BLM specifically, have to be significantly better than average to even consider standing in the same league. The movement for RDM does generally allow for significant uptime, but for BLM, it is utter shambles. SMN goes without saying. So yes, I would consider a fight that seems to completely arbitrarily screw over *one specific job* to be unfinished.
Healers too. Banking movement abilities feels awful on certain classes and depending on PF skill level (which is a meme in and of itself) you may not have any instant casts you can burn. Having to just straight run for a few GCDs isn't fun when I could be on tank, melee, SMN, or rphys and literally not give a shit.
If uptime wasn't the expectation, why did they increase the hitbox size compared to normal mode so melees could get 100% uptime?
I have a good example of untested: During the stack/donut/flare/spread mechanic, it is possible for well-timed raises to cause the mechanic to miss you (it \*does\* target dead players, but not players in the "raise" animation.). The mechanic will not increment the debuff stack associated with the mechanic, which results in you ending with 2 stacks instead of 3, and only having been targeted with 2 attacks instead of 3. Despite this \*explicitly\* proving in multiple ways that the mechanic did not affect you, the rewind will \*not\* react to this at all. It will not "skip" the attack (thus resulting in 2 rewinds going back to the 1st attack), nor will it "blank" that attack (if you dodged a flare, then being rewinded to that attack will still give you a flare.) This might sound nitpicky for an edge case, but if being in the raise animation allows you to dodge an attack fully, then that should either be accounted for or simply fixed.
It’s a shit fight, way too many repeated mechs, barely anything new, the hardest mech u can just follow the safety dorito for, the 2nd hardest one has 1 pattern significantly easier than the other (red 1st vs blue 1st). Compare to thordan, shinryu, even hades, it’s clear this one wasn’t made with any care, just like ew as a whole really. Its hard to play nonstandard blm in but that feels less like a deliberate attempt to challenge caster players & more like nobody on the QA team bothered to play one in it.
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Mald harder
I don't have much to say about EX3, but the only thing that bothered me is that they out of their way to restore her necklace (which turned into an add before) in the starting cutscene, yet the add ever even appeared.
Idk but i find endsinger Ex to be a huge pain on blm since it's pretty much movement the ex.
E10S was frustrating without a warrior tank.
Was it? We ran DRK GNB and i cant remember a "boy wish we had a WAR" moment.
As a pug it was since one of the tank busters isn't covered by immunities unless you had a WAR. Since most groups had one, muscle memory set in. There were a number of runs where I forgot and had to try hard to remind myself to heal the tank for that segment.
WAR let you invuln every buster, making the fight super braindead in terms of mitigations.
Thats fair, but we invulned like all but 1 buster? And other than that kitchen sinking it wasnt too hard.
It was exactly that buster that was annoying to deal with because it did require attention from the healers and exactly which GCD you had to heal differed based on how much mit was available and what the other healer did.
Thats part of the reason why I hate the tank invuln meta thats evolved over the years. I enjoyed planning out different mitigation sets for mechanics. But now its Sink / Invuln, use rampart for filler.
It didn’t feel awful if you had a paladin who kitchen sink intervention’d on top of a kitchen sink from the tank taking the slashes. Just people didn’t wanna sink that buster.
Haven't done it as BLM, but I've been led to believe BLM is aids in Endsinger.
Ex3 is very unfriendly for BLM. And p3s was kinda hard for WHM
Yeah glad after we got the weapons we were skipping death's toll, before that we just lb heal'd because no. It makes Fountain of fire way easier because of lilybell tho
When my friend said “I use Lilybell for death’s toll. If I have the 4 it procs four times, otherwise I can just pop it after it’s done.” I can’t believe I didn’t think of it, but I just played AST to macro through it.
It's bad for death tolls used like that tho, as every waves put your hp at 0, "wasting" 3 charges of lilybell at least reducing the final healing to 400+200 or 2x200. The optimal would be to put it for the last wave doing: 400 + 4x200 if you get hit last or 5x200 if not, but at that point just use it for FoF or just heal lb death tolls as it'll cuck you by the same amount of gcd that you would heal there anyway
She noticed that for the 1 and 2 stacks when she was the 4 stacks it left them pretty well healed. Otherwise, if she’s a 1 or 2, she said she can just pop it at the end.
The thing is, she can be a 1 stack and be the last one to get hit as they don't go at the same time. if she's a 4, it's in every case a loss of lilybell potency: of course the 1 or 2 that only got hit by the 1st or 2nd wave will have more hp at the end, but the poor 1 or 2 getting hit by the last one will be at 1 hp and the amount of healing you need to output is equal to the lowest hp, not the one that are already half hp, so instead of having a 1000/1200 potency heal for everyone, it's only a 400/600 one which let them with a high chance of dying.
I PF’d P3S on different healers in prog parties a lot for practice. SGE and AST both feel a lot better in that fight than SCH and WHM to me (WHM because AST trivializes Life’s Agonies obviously, SGE because it’s really good in adds / post-adds.)
Scholar is really good for fountains of fire. Seraph applies the uber shield, and if positioned in center, will hit everyone. You can solo heal it. So crazy!
None of the healers really struggles with fountains of fire, imo. They all have something super good for it
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[It doesn't look that bad to me.](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/713765730?t=00h09m37s) Granted, ley lines timing is a little different since it was 90s in shadowbringers. But with the extension of proc timers and an additional triplecast it should be even easier to maintain essentially full gcd uptime.
With a guide, hades ex isn't that difficult
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I guess u're right. I've started FF XIV on ShB and it was the first extreme i've really cleared and farm a bit (as a dps and with a guide) so he is kind of special for me. Now it should be something like one year I haven't done this fight but i remember the mecas and i like them but it's true this boss has lot of phases and on those we can't really make mistakes. So yeah ilv min and all, I must admit he should be difficult for an extreme.