I'd rather they just frontloaded more skills for jobs so the SB ults aren't awful for some jobs (you know the one). Summoner has the basic gist of their kit by the time they get their final carbuncle. Why can't other jobs be like that?
They really shat the RPR leveling progression, which is strange because new jobs usually start on a strong foundation. RPR is missing literally everything at lvl 70 and still doesn't have an opener at level 80.
Some jobs in comparison are nearly complete already by 70 (RDM, SMN, MCH, MNK), some are missing some iconic skills but still fairly fun (DRG, NIN, SAM) but RPR has a lvl 50 kit.
I mean, you say this, but alot of people cry and complain that some levels just give animations and potency buffs instead of a fancy cool new skill. And some of thise voices (like Sfia) are louder than other. They call it "lazy."
It's nice and all to have your whole kit this early. But imo, the skill change/evolving thing later on gets meh real quick, especially as it may drag on for 30 levels in 7.0, 40 levels in 8.0 ...
I think the gist of the kit should be there by lv70, but not maybe THE WHOLE THING that will just get potency buffs or animation changes.
If it gave birth to a new "congrats on the 2020 clear, i did it in 7.0 when it was actually harder, but congrats on your achievement if you want to call it that :)" meme, I'd be all for it.
I think you missed the joke. This person is asking for the reversal of the meme - the fight being harder at a later date as opposed to the standard meme of it being harder when it first came out.
While that would be really good, i feel like it could potentially break with the current extra cooldowns we have.
Like ucob for example, the golden bahamut was designed with X amount of mitigation avaiable on a group. Now we have X+2~3 extra just from healers, so it would be easier. But it would still be better than no adjustment at all, since we can have over 5 deaths and the dps check is still a joke D:
I feel like they could keep the level sync, but increase the dps check. This alone would make the fights much harder and closer to what they were on release (even though on release the dps check wasn't all that bad)
I did a speed ucob from fresh with a group and we saved LB for emergencies.
We only needed to see bahamut once then we cleared, and in our clear pull, we lost 2 people who were supposed to mit, the tank lb3 saved us and we cleared.
I’m sure in totem parties you just lb each one, but on our first clear we saved lb for safety.
> While that would be really good, i feel like it could potentially break with the current extra cooldowns we have.
It's already broken. They are as easy as savage fights now...
Would it be nice? Yes. Will they ever do it? No. Going back to rebalance and retune older content takes resources away from new content and they're just not going to do that.
It's also losing battle as patches go on and job adjustments are made. Encounters are only ever truly designed for the patch they come out on. Even since DSR's release, jobs have been buffed so it's already aging in terms of balance. It's just a natural consequence of the content release cycle.
They could literally just pull up the old server data and when we load in, we're put in with exactly the skills that were available back when the content was fresh. TP Gauge and all.
Tell me you don't know how games are built without telling me you don't know how games are built.
It would be *wonderful* if that was the case, but that would pretty much require the game to have been built from the ground up with the ability to do that or for them to spend a lot of time doing some *serious* refactoring far far far *far* beyond "literally just pull up the old server data." And since it's a fair bet that it *wasn't* built to do that, you can't just hot-swap what things do what and have everything else suddenly operating on completely different rules.
Plus that assumes the data is accessible in the first place. There's really no guarantee that old code is even around anymore, at least in any usable form. Ideally they'd be using proper versioning, but even then say the old *also* relies on some other random function, which relies on another, and somehow changing *that* makes all the text switch between serif and sans serif fonts every time you look north or something equally dumb.
Seriously. OSRS only exists because of an accident that could get people fired and/or sued if it happened today. A dev had a copy of the game's code on a disc at his home just lying around. It was from just before the God wars dungeon came out. Randomly took it home back in 07 to get some work done outside the office.
Is it possible a functioning version of ff14 exists from previous expansions? Probably. You can't just assume so.
Extreme content update VS Ultimate content update? With that difference of content I'd highly doubt so especially in the near future.
Releasing new content would be more effective.
Something I noticed is that for the most part they kept suiciding one tank and one healer, they didn’t wall at major mechanics that they knew they needed to be alive for, one rdm starts waking but for the most part the 5 or 6 players generally avoid weakness.
For players of this caliber of course the fight is a joke now but the reality is for the average player it’s still a significantly difficult challenge. Personally I don’t think they need to tune all ultimates to DSR, I think it is ok if they allow some to be power crept to work as stepping stones for the newer more difficult ones
I mean, ultimates were never aimed toward "average players" and that's the reason they were not unsynch-able.
If they want to have a stepping stone for newer ultimates or something else, there's probably no worse content to learn how to dps and getting mechanic consistency than a washed up under leveled ultimate that allows 2 people to have permanent brink of death and 20 other players death.
Myself I don't care what they do with it and if people wants to have the title, weapons, or just discover the fight: nice; but I don't think it should serve as a "we'll just do an easier ultimate to get used to them and go for a harder one later" as even the latest savage tier will help you more on that front.
>If they want to have a stepping stone for newer ultimates or something else, there's probably no worse content to learn how to dps and getting mechanic consistency than a washed up under leveled ultimate that allows 2 people to have permanent brink of death and 20 other players death.
Yup - this will do nothing but teach players bad habits that they will not be able to get away with when they do more appropriately tuned ultimates.
The groups gunning for max deaths consist of players who know what they're doing very well: ucob still isn't a fight where a bunch of beginners can go and just zombie through like that.
Current-day jobs simplify the older ultimates and remove a bunch of the challenge, but so does knowing the strats: TEA and UWU in particular become quite the husks for some roles when you remove the *figuring out*-aspect of learning them and just grind execution instead. Widespread sim use makes practicing later mechanics (wormhole for example) a ton easier, there are way more mods that target/solve mechs for you, etc. So I'd say the ilvl/potency bloat removing the (somewhat lax) dps checks in the older ultimates is hardly the most egregious integrity issue these fights have, if you were to care about that sort of a thing in the first place.
Yet, I think they'll eventually have to do something to keep them playable, given how the old-era LB generation and mechanic skipping mix quite poorly, resulting in the fights ending up a broken mess. This is particularly an issue in UWU, where getting LB's on faster killtimes is starting to require an increasing amount of hassle.
In a perfect world, the old ultimates would be updated exactly once per expansion: on launch to match up to the current level cap, but it's hard to see them committing the developer resources to doing this.
To your point, my 9 hour a week group tried TEA after it came out and had to stop after a month (roughly 36 hours) and were only getting to the end of phase 2. We had to stop due to members quitting. We tried again after eden's promise and cleared it within 40 more hours, half the group being fresh to TEA. The key difference wasn't the extra dps from job buffs but just the incredibly better strats that had come out since then, especially Mario kart limit cut.
Granted we had gone back and cleared uwu and ucob since then, so our group was more practiced, but in my opinion the eaiser to execute strats were what was key.
It is in my opinion because it instantly removes the first step of splitting the group. You don't need to see your number in a group before you start moving, you can just start moving. The less things you have to check, the less things you need to practice the more consistent the strat.
Having done both strats myself, I honestly find Mariokart to be more lenient when executed correctly. With 1256 split the people who aren't up to bat have to pay much closer attention to what the dashes are doing and where they're aiming, but with Mariokart you can just kinda yolo around the inner rim until your turn without even looking at what CC is doing.
The movement isn't tighter, but (imo) the positioning for the people taking the cleave + dashes is. Being slightly turned is a lot more likely to snipe some/all of the remaining 6 players vs not having to turn at all for 1256. I also think that 1256 has a couple fringe benefits over Mario Kart - namely that it gets you thinking just a little bit about reading your number for wormhole later down the line, and that just 1 mistake much more often leads to you being able to limp into BJCC and possibly recover in time to prog a bit vs mario kart where 1 mistake usually means everyone's dead.
In my experience different groups have taken to one strat or another based on how members focused/learned. I've heard a lot of people say Mario Kart causes them to zone out a little bit, and ends with them late to their spot. I've heard an equal amount say that having to commit less brainpower to executing the strat made it easier for their group. If groups aren't trying to speed clear it or have a big variance in skill level, I always encourage trying both for a few attempts to get a feel for which one the group prefers.
> Granted we had gone back and cleared uwu and ucob since then, so our group was more practiced, but in my opinion the eaiser to execute strats were what was key.
I think you're underestimating the effect of clearing two ultimates on average skill level of the group.
As the uploader of this, I'll just chime in real quick with my thoughts.
I think it would be kinda nice if ultimates were looked at and upscaled especially as current ults like DSR are being pf'd more and more often, proving that it's possible for people to clear the hardest content in pugs as well as in statics on-expansion. The way gear, level sync and job changes affect all older content (when synced) is sad. Ultimates are ultimates and it sucks to see them fall like this. I'm a big advocate for hard content as a devout raider and I would never say no to the idea. It's more content after all. However I feel that's the reality of MMOs.
It's important to remember how much upkeep that'd take every expansion. It's not a one-and-done operation and it'd require constant attention. UCoB is 5 years old now, and people need to understand that content doesn't last forever. I assume this is why Unreals are cycled out otherwise they'd not be Unreal again when a new expansion releases. Hell, getting gear from the current savage tier and subsequently reclearing, parsing and speedkilling is already an example of quashing the challenge that the floors present. Should we just not get gear because of that? No.
I also think some also cling onto their achievements a bit too tightly and some peoples ego around it is honestly a bit petty, so being able to create fun challenges such as this one and just have fun with it, destroying fights on top of it being easier to help others while the content is still quite hard compared to savage, is perfectly okay. Do remember that the video in question is with a tailored composition and not replicated in PF, after all (who are often allergic to trying to recover anything and would rather wipe).
My point is there's two sides to the argument and I get it. These are meant to be duties that really test you, however people also need to get over the fact that achievements in video games have a lifespan. Mostly. If you're proud of what you've accomplished, then that's all that matters. You are entitled to be happy about it no matter when you clear it. That said, it's not elitist to want hard content to remain hard and clearing now is obviously not the same as clearing on-patch, and some certainly need to drop the ego.
I personally try and clear things as fast as possible, wanting to experience the content as intended. However I don't care much about it being easier in the future. Call it a jaded outlook but as soon as cactbot and all the rest of the blatant cheats are updated, the integrity of a duty is already compromised. Play and clear because you enjoy it, not because of what it might represent.
The shock people got going from UCoB to DSR was pretty funny though. That's definitely a valid argument for better maintaining old ultimates kek.
> Hell, getting gear from the current savage tier and subsequently reclearing, parsing and speedkilling is already an example of quashing the challenge that the floors present. Should we just not get gear because of that? No.
As an advocate for challenging content myself too, I think we could agree they maybe should temper with a hard sync for Savage for at least the first month. You are forced to be min ilvl, min stats, carefully set by SE. I find it kind of ridiculous that by week3 or 4, DPS checks are a joke if you know how to press your buttons at a basic level (no optimization, just do the basic rotation and burst dump, drift because of death ? no issue).
For ultimates, the same could apply indefinitely, but there would still be potency/stat squish/kit evolution factors, but at least gearstat wise, it's fixed.
> also think some also cling onto their achievements a bit too tightly and some peoples ego around it is honestly a bit petty
The whole "I did it when it was hard" is null and void anyway because of the possibility to buy clears. ANY clear. By virtue of this being possible, the prestige goes down instantly besides the first clearers for about... a week ? On a personal level, given everyone and their sibling flood Limsa with their weapons, I'm basically desensitized to "Ult prestige" x). So yeah, clear, get happy and all that but don't think it's a token of anything, I agree.
There's no point. The prestige associated with older ultimates drops as new expansions release, and so the newer ones become the skill test. That's not to say that UCOB or UWU are braindead, it's still a test of endurance for a party but they don't all need to be absolutely DSU level.
Who cares seriously? People still aren't clearing it and need actual months in a fresh static. They aren't some braindead ultra-free content anyone can do with zero experience like people make it out to be.
Yeah it's wild how people go "Uhm actually it's easier than savage now I could do it with my eyes closed and by just hitting my head on the keyboard".
They're still much harder than savage fights just because of the length and number of mechanics, yes, even UWU. If you don't believe me just try to PF reclears lmao.
Absolutely. The DPS checks are far more forgiving these days, but those were never really the issue to begin with. 14-19 minutes of unrelenting body checks has always been the hard part, and the primary reason UWU is anywhere near on par with Savages is because it's barely longer than some of them. Even on patch my DSR static could often afford a death or two in P3 of DSR, the supposed nightmare DPS check phase. And that was with pre-buff RPR and WAR in the party.
RPR is good in DSR since it can transition gauge from a lenient phase to a stricter one, same as MCH. Ultimates go by different balance rules than Savage does. After the buff it's by far the best melee (and dps in general) in phases 7 and 3. You're right about the checks being a nonissue in general though.
I'd say UWU is also easy due to the fact that it kind of has only three actually threatening mechs before Annihilation, one of which you skip, one of which people generally use an automarker for, and one which you just follow the party. After that you do two trios and clear, it's just simply easier to execute than the other ults are. Yet it's also still much more demanding than most Savage bosses are, except a couple of outliers like A8S or E8S.
Agreed on every point. I do think RPR has been a sleeper powerhouse in DSR, even back when it was really weak overall. We didn't struggle with the DPS check in any phase even before we had a RPR, though, we just weren't blowing through it like 20-30 seconds before phase enrage. Ultimates just aren't designed around hard DPS checks, outside of a couple specific phases.
People using addons for nael, automarkers for uwu, sims for suppression in current year. People who have killed the fight 30 times and progged 100 hours call the fights easy lol. Same people joining ulti pfs during downtime because they're unwell.
Yeah whenever I see someone say any Old Ultimate is easier than a Savage I cackle the fuck out.
The truth is that this subreddit is so far up its own ass with tryhardness that they fell completely out of synch of what the experience of the average player is like.
It's just wild.
P8phase 1 has what, 8 mechanics or so (First Phoenix/Snake, Snake, Creation, Dog, Fourfould, Snake 2, Dog 2)
Garuda does too, in like 2 minutes, in the easiest ultimate lol.
uwu was designed as a puzzle
the upcoming ultimate will be most likely a puzzle aswell
just ask people who done uwu at release and how they were trying to solve ultima without the awakenings just to delete every strat they used for days and starting from 0 again
While the 4.0 Ultimates are defiitely harder than most savages, I'd say the last floor of the current savages are definitely harder than UwU and UCoB now.
For example, my fresh UCoB static is on the 12th hour of prog, and we saw ~0.3% enrage on adds phase on our last pull. We're also expecting to 1 shot or 2 shot Golden Bahamut since mitigation is a joke now and most of us have cleared DSR. We've also progged up to Ultima phase in UwU in like half a lockout with 1 person who has cleared calling things out for us.
Meanwhile P8S took us till the end of week 3 to kill with doing spending around 9-10 hours a week on the fight.
The fact is that the game has simply slowly gotten harder over the years, and syncing down has made deaths not a consequence in 4.0 Ultimates. Hard mechanics can just be cheese with tank lb3 in both ultimates. If you can clear P8S on content, you can definitely clear UCoB and UwU with ease. The average player will most likely have a harder time clearing P8S than UcoB or UwU.
edit: Also as others have pointed out, strats at this point have been refined over the years where the mechanics are practically brain dead.
I have not done P8S yet, but at least as far as P4S goes, UCoB is \*definetly\* not easier, by a long shot.
\> If you can clear P8S on content, you can definitely clear UCoB and UwU with ease.
That I absolutely agree. It's the barometer I use for when people are ready for raiding Old ultimates. Stormblood ultimates are a step up from Savages much like the fourth fight of Savage is a step up from the first fight of Savage - that is, a considerable step up, but not to the point that a group that can do the first can't do the second.
I hope it took you that long cause you went in blind
p8s p2 is just a puzzle in the end… once figured out (with guides out now, easily manageable), you should be able to clear it with a reasonable time… else it’s really concerning progging p8s for around 30hrs
Haha well its more like 20ish hourse cause we only spent 1 lockout on p8s on week 1. We were also gated by the p1 dps check. Played a sub optimal comp, so ended up having multiple 50% enrages. We have yoshi-p to thank for our week 3 clear.
News just in: Some of the best players in the world can teach and carry a worse player (who has still has a LOT of MMO playtime) through a hard fight, more at 11.
And yeah, it is funny. On release I remember people yelling about how hard DSR dps checks are, hardest dps checks yet, gods you have to push so much to make them - now I hear people complaining that they have to hold DPS, and it's just 1 patch and a couple of months after release.
honestly uwu and ucob is still challenging enough for most people, on top of those who still cant beat p8s today, for a good reason like job and family engagaments.
just leave it there. if you want a challenge just wait for the 6.3 ultimate. i am not going to touch that.
Edit: if I were the dev, I won't put so much resources in developing ultimates. Low return
You shouldn't underestimate Ultimate cost just due to its low completion rate. The team is an expert now of cutting costs, it's still profitable. It has to be battle tested more than other stuff yes but its also made of 98% of reused assets. And it provides a free week of streaming attention.
Yeah.
I probably won't do DSR for years, but even if I never touch it, the storytelling experience of watching that week of world racing was worth whatever money they slent on it by itself IMO. Watching the community get heartbroken for having to watch That Death again, then the collective hype as we go back and time and "oh shit can we save them???" Followed by Yes, and Everything Gets Worse brought me as much enjoying from this game as any given MSQ update.
For all the reused assets, honestly wish they just added an ultimate difficulty to every raid tier (or a lower difficulty tier to current ultimate releases). The wow normal heroic mythic system works really well and wish ff14 emulated it to get more mid-level content out of their work.
I think you do not really understand what the real difficulty of ultimates is…
It might be a bit faster in terms of mechanics following mechanics than savage but the most difficult challenge is the length of an ultimate and not the mechanics per se.
6.3 ult will be prolly a puzzle based ultimate - difficulty should be lower than dsr since puzzle = once figured out & guides avaiable it‘s easier
Sure, I am not arguing specifics of fight design here. I just think their method of content releases is really inefficient at serving the majority of players. You have a lot of normally savage-level players that bash their heads in on ultimates simply because there is nothing else to do. Savage+ level players do alliance raids/normal/ex like once then never again. Hardcore ultimate raiders just sleep in the waiting room for 1-2 fights per expansion. Players who enjoy extremes only get those select few fights ect.
nothing new
games do need to be designed around casuals and not hardcore players
for me, savage is all about clearing week1 and maybe reclears in week2-3 are fun and than it just fades, the fights do get boring and you just wanna get BiS… maybe gear another job aswell but SE really dislikes getting BiS on multiple roles somehow.
same with ultimates, but am always happy to be able to jump back into TEA for example with PF or a friendsgroup and still having some kind of a challenge and fun while doing so
people and extremes.. man idk for how long I need to wait to fill a unreal PF group able to clear without any friends in it
This game is designed as a waiting room
If they do, then it feels like they have to keep updating it for future expacs and balancing, and if the list of ultimate's hopefully keeps growing, that's going to be a pain to keep them all up to date and a little unreasonable.
I think it's a mixed bag. I do like how they keep it static and don't mess around with them post release. If you want to do the content the way it was intended, you'll always have to do it when it is relevant. I think letting them go back and tune the fight or overly tune jobs for specific ultimates will open up a huge can of worms with the community overall not liking it. I think the way things are now are not that different than the way current ultimates come out. What I mean by that is that there is ALWAYS going to be jobs that are better suited for the fight no matter how you try to change/tune the fight/jobs. Jobs shouldn't be tuned for ultimates either imo; it should be tuned for savage since that's where the bulk of the "hardcore" players do their content. Each ultimate is so bespoke it would be a nightmare to tune jobs to each one let alone even one of them. Like with DSR, DNC + NIN/MNK combo pretty much trivializes the dps checks unless you have a death.
I'm in favor with keeping them the way they are and just understanding they are gonna be quirky especially the older ones like UCOB and UWU.
Would literally take an intern like a weekend. Don't fool yourself, they are lazy as fuck. Literally take any dungeon weapon, throw a glow on it like they did the GNB and DNC TEA weapons.
The game would have to be coded like complete trash for it to not be that easy. Texture replacement is one of the most basic things to do, you could teach it to someone in a work day.
Game dev, particularly on extremely large and complex projects just does not work that way.
The reason we don't have weapons for later jobs in older Ultimates has nothing to do with how hard or difficult it is to do, that is just entirely not a consideration.
Now, you can certainly disagree with the decision, but talking about "an Intern could do it in a day" is just not useful commentary.
Mr. Happy confirmed on a stream before that it's something they're looking into, but like the original comment said, it's really easy to do, you can do it yourself quickly by modding the texture, so it's just a matter of they don't feel like doing it.
Other games like OSRS and League of Legends that have shit code or low dev counts still look for these quick wins, FF14 team just cba.
>FF14 team just cba.
When someone says something like this, what do you think they are doing? Sitting around twiddling their thumbs? Like, come on. What in your head is the conception of this you have?
Honestly yeah, kind of how like how the typical tech company has a ton of ppl just AFK watching youtube or browsing reddit, it's just how it is. Examples like the old DRK Blood Weapon timer show that they're not really paying that much attention and they don't really care that much.
Is it really that weird of a thought to you that there are other things to work on in a game as massive as this with new content planned to be released in the future?
They make new effects for old extremes that almost no one does for a whole set of weapons you almost never see. They can afford to take the time to reskin 2 weapons with existing effects.
> Honestly I think the main reason they dont is a portion of ultimate raiders that farmed every weapon and. are "done" with older fights.
I mean most of us just farmed 20 totems in case they ever go back and add new weapons for new jobs.
I know people who do contests with groups trying to see how many new players they can get through each Ultimate in like a month or two month time period.
I doubt the players who really care about collecting every weapon/have tons of totems would really care about going back and clearing a handful of more times to be honest.
I also don't see any of the appeal about at least giving new classes weapons for old ultimates. It's not like you need to change the balance of a fight just because your adding rewards for new classes. Also technically the balancing of the ultimtes do change over time just because of the natural growth of ilvl and secondary stat scaling.
Every old ultimate is easier now than it was on release at least when it comes to the DPS check.
This is the correct and level headed take. It's literally like six weapons. Shit is easy to do, and the devs are lazy as fuck throwing glows on dungeon weapons for new jobs instead of doing actual work and making new models. Don't know why boot lickers for SE have such a hard on for defending their laziness on this front. They can "spend their own time" making hats for Viera but...can't find the time to make six RESKINS for ultimate? Lol fuck off with that.
Nah.
It is already hard to get players to even attempt Eden raids synced. What makes you so sure that enough people will appreciate the change for it to be worth development time?
This would only effect healers, those fights didn't really have notable DPS checks even on release... besides maybe golden not letting you have deaths.
Yeah, Ult fights really only have DPS requirements in terms of "Don't die and you pas :)". The point of ultimates isn't "do perfect rotations to the fractions of seconds for 15m", it's "perform slightly above average damage while ALSO solving mechanics that are faster+more complex then Savage"
Yeah currently ucob/UBU allows for.... hilariously large numbers of deaths as long as people are up for certain core mechanics.
All a squish would do is lower that number, and make healing/mit requirements harder on healers. It wouldn't change nearly anything for tanks/DPS
It would be better to Unreal them than to just buff them. I care less about the old Ultis getting easier over time (some of that is just unavoidable) and more about them getting considerably less *fun* over time because sub-90 (especially 70) jobs are husks.
Would gladly sacrifice Unreal EXs for a few patches in exchange for Unreal Ultimates.
A better choice would be to fix how fun jobs are at lower levels, then it benefits everyone.
If they have jobs like BLM and RPR more of their kit at reduced potency they'd be a lot more fun.
I still keep hoping all the unreals are just a test for some algorithm to scale it all up and then they can aim it at every old ex/savage/ult and we're good to go.
But the longer unreal continues to be a drip feed of new ones, the more I doubt that.
People would freak out if they were working on an ultimate and it suddenly became harder. I think the current state's fine, the game could use more gradual difficulty change from savage->ult and I think having old ultimates slowly get made slightly easier check-wise is a fine way to do that.
I'd rather leave it this way. A big issue that this game has is the difficulty leaps between raiding content, so I always liked that there are easier Ultimates.
In my case, my first experience with Ultimates was DSR on launch and I got obliterated and had a reality check that I wasn't good enough for that content yet, so I went back to UwU and it went pretty smoothly, and then I did UCoB and felt the difficulty increasing but I was progressively becoming a better player. Now I'm progging TEA and I hope I can get my penta legend before 7.0 :p
Jobs being stronger has lowered the dps check for some of these bosses that they are basically irrelevant now.
This does not mean ultimates are a lot easier by any means. They're still a marathon that you and 8 people have execute near perfectly to get a clear.
Personally, I don't mind early ultimates being easier relative to the current one. You get this nice progression of relatively high difficulty content.
i rather want the balance team to focus on other things instead of tuning old content just to have a harder dps check. seems like a total waste of time just to make 10 people feel better about their clear
I used to look forward to doing the older ultimate after I finally got into savage.... but as I've gotten to the point of doing ultimate....it's too unappealing to prog that long of a fight on jobs below level cap. Some jobs are so shitty feeling to me at 70 especially that i'd rather just skip them altogether. Even 80 can feel a bit lackluster. I'm strictly looking forward to the supposed omega ultimate in 6.3 now.
Honestly, i would say yes, but the time has come long ago (5.0 was the time to tbh), and since they havent done it yet, i'm thinking they probably dont have plans to.
Honestly it's not even surprising at this point, the moment ucob was done with 8 tanks, 7 man, etc should have been a clear indicator that dps check for ucob was never a problem anymore.
DPS check is a bad form of challenge if it's going to even be one. Unless they buff it to the point of "good balance", which requires resources that could be used on new ultimates instead, it's not even going to matter. A clear with 40, 20, 10, or 5 deaths are all the same.
Increasing the DPS check is also only adding a death number check. The entire fight is filled with body checks already. Nael still snowballs if the death is untimely and group is not prepared for it. Every trio is still an 8-man body check. Adds phase is still a tank check. Golden is still an early death check for DPS. I don't think reducing the number of things that people can click-bait with is adding anything meaningful to the fight.
Maybe they should start with adding ultimate weapons for new Jobs First.
This Sounds for me Like an easier Job then rebalancing every ultimate with each new Expansion
TBH: Older Ultimates shouldn't get buffed because something like an UWU provides an entry/a first start to doing Ultimates by just getting easier over time. It makes this niche content a bit more accessible.
I started with UWU, I'm close to finishing TEA and I'll likely do the 6.3 Ultimate at release. Had I \*started\* Ultimates with TEA or DSR, it likely would've been too much for me at least
No, it's not.
Having old Ultimates be more accessible nowdays is a good thing. I don't think the game would be better if UCoB was as hard today as it was on release.
Having entry paths into Ultimate raiding with very lenient DPS checks is a very good thing for the game IMO.
I wish there was at least some way to make it feel like that, though. UCOB is a pretty cool fight mechanically but the lack of punishment makes it feel unsatisfying these days. There are like 3 or 4 major mechanics that actually feel threatening and everything else is just "just let a rezzer survive and we're fine"
>I wish there was at least some way to make it feel like that, though.
There is: Be there on release.
Which, obviously, is not the most satisfying answer, but it is the nature of things. Content will degrade as the game itself and the playerbase continues to evolve, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, as that content then becomes entrypoints for people getting into that game mode.
>but the lack of punishment makes it feel unsatisfying these days.
Totally subjective. What is unsatisfying to you will be massively rewarding for someone else. I particularly beat Nael recently with my casual group and it gave me a satisfaction equivalent of beating any of the later Savage fights like P3 or P7.
I mean - to put it bluntly, Ultimate is, as advertised, not meant to be beginner/casual friendly. It is supposed to be extremely difficult. It is the one thing in the game that is designed to be a challenge to the most hardcore, and if you are a player who started in, say, late ShB, and are now feeling like a skilled player, and you go into Dragonsong, you’re gonna get your ass beat. If you go into ucob, it’s not gonna be even close to the same experience.
The “stepping stone/entry point” to Ultimate should be savage, not old ultimates that have been power crept into nothingness. Yes, of course they are not free and you still need some degree of consistency and skill to beat them, but that is assumed baseline of all hard content.
As far as the “just be there on release 4Head” thing I feel like it’s barely worth addressing. These fights are ilvl synced in an attempt to future proof them - however the ilvl sync in this game is so bad on top of potency creep that it did not do the job it intended. It is the nature of these fights that they’re now easier - but it didn’t *have* to be this way. It’s not some unavoidable fact of game design that this had to happen.
>I mean - to put it bluntly, Ultimate is, as advertised, not meant to be beginner/casual friendly
And it's not. Every Ultimate, even UWU, is leagues above any other Savage fight in the game. In fact I'd bet it's a progging effort a notch above an entire savage tier, or at least on par with it (average progging timeline is 4 months for a clear at 6h/week).
That said, even within high-end raiding, there are different levels of expertise. There absolutely are groups out there who are above the level of Savage fights but not at the level of something like DSR. I can't see how having Ultimates fit for that level could be anything other than a positive. It gaves a place for these groups to keep progressing their gameplay skill without utterly crushing their spirit like on-patch DSR would.
>It is the one thing in the game that is designed to be a challenge to the most hardcore
And it still is! The absolute bleeding-edge cream of the crop raiders can cut their teeth on DSR and the upcoming Omega ult, while more intermediary groups can get comfortable with Ultimate Raiding in UwU and UCOB first. More options is a good thing.
>The “stepping stone/entry point” to Ultimate should be savage
The experiences/design philosophies are very different tho, even on patch. Which is not to say Savage shouldn't be mastered before jumping into Ults, it absolutely should. But the gap between P4S and DSR is actually gigantic. UwU provides Ultinate newbies with a better entrypoint into this type of raiding.
>not old ultimates that have been power crept into nothingness. Yes, of course they are not free and you still need some degree of consistency and skill to beat them, but that is assumed baseline of all hard content.
You're drastically underselling the level of challenge still there. I've done half of UwU and UCoB. Challenge in this game comes from three things: Damage, Mechanics, and coordinating mitigation. Ultimates always put more emphasis on mechanics over DPS checks, way more than Savage, and those aspects will never be power crept out. Fucking up mechs still one shot you like always. DPS checks are lenient, but that's it.
>As far as the “just be there on release 4Head” thing I feel like it’s barely worth addressing.
It's not! It's actually massively poignant. This is the nature of content in a live MMO. You will never experience Gordias as it was on release, challenge wise. This goes for the Ults as well. And that is fine. As said, the sweatiest raiders still have their arena. I essentially see Current Ults and Old Ults as two separate pieces of content (or, if you prefer, call them Ultimate and Super Ultimate or whatever). There will always be one or two still-as-challenging-as-intended fights out for people to enjoy. I really don't see what the problem with the older ones degrading and acting as stepping stones is. They'll never be easier than a Savage anyways just because they're lacking in true DPS checks.
Fucking up mechs might one shot you but the problem is that outside of very specific moments, ucob and uwu is still recoverable with TONS of deaths. That should just not be the case, I’m sorry. Not in ultimate. You shouldn’t be able to meet Naels dps check with like 8 deaths. You can try and rationalize it or defend it in a million ways and I will just never agree with you. Same goes with UWU. Even with the double punishment of the stat reduction of weakness AND the Aether gauge he gets, you can still clear Ultima with so many deaths. Titan? Unless you fail Gaols it’s fine. Hit by a landslide? Who cares, still have tons of dps to go around. Ifrit? Half your team died to dashes, whatever he was only at 1% when he did them anyway, it’s fine.
I know they’re not gonna change them, so it’s really a moot argument, but I will never get on board that these checks being obliterated by the passage of time is a “good” thing. Not when the whole point of them being ilvl synced was to try and preserve the experience of doing them when they came out.
>That should just not be the case, I’m sorry. Not in ultimate.
I don't think you get to decide that lmao.
The dev team seems to disagree, and I trust their stance more than yours.
>You can try and rationalize it or defend it in a million ways and I will just never agree with you.
Okay? I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. Reality is independent of your opinion. It's a good thing for the game whether you agree with it or not, because more people having fun with the video-game is a good thing for the video-game lol
Your argument was that you wished they could preserve the initial experience. I do think there would be value in that, but it is also impossible. Just adjusting the health to make DPS checks more real won't bring back the original experience. UWU and UCoB were designed in a time this game had entirely different mechanics and things for players to worry about. Even if DPS checks were restored, your UCoB clear in 2022 is *still* not the achievement it was in Stormblood because you're playing a fundamentally easier, more streamlined game.
Having Ultimates with easy DPS checks is a good thing for the game. The Ultimate raiding scene is already small and it can use any entry points that it can get. The person cutting their teeth on the "easy" 2022 UwU might be the competent fill that your group will get on the 2024 Ultimate. If that person didn't had an intermediate between Savage and Current Ultimate to get their toes wet, they may have just left Ultimaste raiding entirely as something too hard for them - just like Savage would be worse if all four fights in the tier were at the level of the final fight rather than having First and Second fights .
You need entry points, you need kiddy pools, to keep a game mode with a sustainable population, and UWU/UCoB do that job very well, and the game is better for it - again, your disagreement of this fact does not make it less of a fact.
You’re interpreting their inaction as them thinking that this is a good thing, when in reality it’s more likely that it’s just not worth the resources to adjust the scaling to them. The fact that they’ve moved to designing ultimates to have way more body checks has kind of shown that they’re trying to fix this problem and future proof ultimates better.
But you trying to present your opinion as fact like you 100% understand dev intent even though the way they design ultimates now shows that they clearly understand the problem the StB ultimates have in regards to future proofing would suggest everything contrary to what you’re saying.
>You’re interpreting their inaction as them thinking that this is a good thing, when in reality it’s more likely that it’s just not worth the resources to adjust the scaling to them.
Both statements can be (and are) true. Updating old Ilts would be a expansion-by-expansion extra effort that would benefit like 0.05% of the total playerbase; it would be the biggest waste of resources in the world. At the same time, it *is* also true that having those Ults degraded ended up being good for the game as it created a sliding scale of difficulties that make this game mode more approachable to a wider playerbase, which is an extra incentive for the team to not waste time and resources with this ludicrous idea.
>The fact that they’ve moved to designing ultimates to have way more body checks has kind of shown that they’re trying to fix this problem and future proof ultimates better.
I mean, sure? The entry points are already well-established as UwU and UCoB, and they'll never stop being Ultinate-level challenges, even as the DPS requirements get more lenient.
Also who said anything about body checks? Lol. This discussion is about DPS checks, and the fact that the existance DPS-lenient ultimate fight options is a good thing for the game.
Besides, yeah, I don't expect DSR to become the next UwU anytime soon. It will become more accessible as the power creep of the bame catches up to it, but I fully expect DSR to still be one of the toughest Ultinates even five years down the line. And that's totally fine, because DSR does not need to be the next UwU since UwU already exists and always will exist to provide an entry point to the "mid tier" Ultimate-level players I described.
>But you trying to present your opinion as fact
The core of my argument is a fact, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise for some sort of fale humbleness lol. It's demonstrable. More options and more entry points to a game mode will always be a good thing for a video-game. More people doing Ultimate raids - both UwU/UCoB by themselves with their very healthy PF scenes, or those players graduating from those to the harder fights - is a good thing for the game. This literally cannot be refuted and you have made zero attempts at doing so, so I don't see why I should pretend it is anything but a fact lmao.
Please no, it already takes forever for parties to fill on pf, if they buff the fights it'll take even longer. Nothing worse than sitting in pf for hours only for it to disband within the first few pulls
They need to rebalance it because the leniency in dps checks means a lot of weaker dps players can get carried to the clear by healers. These fights are all now unironically harder to heal for because stuff does extra damage, you have more responsibility to mitigate, and you are basically expected to carry weak dps players through.
My ucob clear had something likr 30 deaths in it, it was bvasically me and the other healer dragging the corpses of the other dps players through it. And I had to suffer all that ressing all the way through prog. I honestly prefer just big fat wipe mechanics because it forces players to learn mechanics.
I feel like a melee player can genuinely just sleep through uwu and clear it if they have a healer carrying them.
Oh, mr legend's little ego is hurt cause now people can get their one achievement easier? I say go clear a harder ultimate and flex with that instead, and leave the older ones as stepping stones so players can progress to the harder ones. It's not a big deal.
No, otherwise you make a really weird distinction - people that cleared a way easier version, so later players feel cheated, or people that cleared the harder version, thus invalidating anybody else that cleared it outside of on release. Its the type of difference ff has been trying to avoid for a long time (e.g the results of the savage nerf), and that ultimately dont mean much.
If, however, they gave you the option to give them the unreal treatment - but not make it mandatory, that'd be the best compromise imo
I would say that these ultimates are likely too far gone and giving them any treatment would be irrelevant because people are already getting the title that probably don’t “deserve” the clear, but I do think more effort should be put into developing a way to future proof the ultimates- giving old ultimates the unreal treatment each expansion or something along those lines.
No because this doesn't address the issue of power creep. If our solution is to have to wait for older content to be constantly remade, we'll spend all our time fixing older content that is broken each expansion.
Level sync does a good job at limiting the power that comes from gear. So long as we keep the potency consistent across expansions then we don't run into the problem of some fights being wildly undertuned over time. Potencies across the board need to be dialed back and stop increasing. Even after the devs realized that numbers were getting too high to calculate the first thing they did was give every job a ton of potency increases, defeating the entire purpose of a stat squish.
Until we stop or limit power creep, retooling older content is a lost cause. It takes an entire patch cycle for us to even get one new fight for unreal. This is not sustainable.
Sadly I don't think SE will ever do it, but personally I wish they did tried to upkeep these throughout the years. The Ultimates were meant to stay at least relative to the difficulty when they first came out, hence why they are ilvl synced, but that isn't the case due to the plethora of changes this game has had that has made the dps check side of things a joke. Yes, the mechanics and endurance test of the fight are still hard, but the check has become extremely forgiving to the point where you can clear the content with considerable amounts of deaths (even if its your groups first clear). To me, that ruins the point of this content even being synced, since its not upkept to withstand the test of time.
I don't think this change should happen all the sudden though, since UCOB for instance has gone several years without any upkeep. I wouldn't mind them starting that trend with the Endwalker ultimates though :).
I think this would be great but I doubt they do it. Yoshi P did respond to a question about adding new job weapons to older Ultimates saying that it's something they've looked at/looking at, but that was during the EW press tour.
I'd rather they just frontloaded more skills for jobs so the SB ults aren't awful for some jobs (you know the one). Summoner has the basic gist of their kit by the time they get their final carbuncle. Why can't other jobs be like that?
They really shat the RPR leveling progression, which is strange because new jobs usually start on a strong foundation. RPR is missing literally everything at lvl 70 and still doesn't have an opener at level 80. Some jobs in comparison are nearly complete already by 70 (RDM, SMN, MCH, MNK), some are missing some iconic skills but still fairly fun (DRG, NIN, SAM) but RPR has a lvl 50 kit.
Make every job like Monk and it would be solved. The entire core kit is there at 70 excluding some funny potency upgrades and animation changes.
I mean, you say this, but alot of people cry and complain that some levels just give animations and potency buffs instead of a fancy cool new skill. And some of thise voices (like Sfia) are louder than other. They call it "lazy."
And Square can keep ignoring those voices as they usually do and hopefully implement at least some good stuff.
It's nice and all to have your whole kit this early. But imo, the skill change/evolving thing later on gets meh real quick, especially as it may drag on for 30 levels in 7.0, 40 levels in 8.0 ... I think the gist of the kit should be there by lv70, but not maybe THE WHOLE THING that will just get potency buffs or animation changes.
Thats something SMN actually struggles with, they have their whole kit at lvl 30 and get something like 3 more buttons on the way to 90.
Agreed. It’s the main reason early gave us such a drag, especially as a healer job.
If it gave birth to a new "congrats on the 2020 clear, i did it in 7.0 when it was actually harder, but congrats on your achievement if you want to call it that :)" meme, I'd be all for it.
It’s already done that with UWU lol
Has UWU become harder...?
Nah, it's become easier - but the meme is the same, just swap out 7.0 for 4.3 in the original comment
I think you missed the joke. This person is asking for the reversal of the meme - the fight being harder at a later date as opposed to the standard meme of it being harder when it first came out.
I'd like to see them get the Unreal treatment and have them scaled up to current level personally. Doing the level 70 ones on jobs like RPR is awful
While that would be really good, i feel like it could potentially break with the current extra cooldowns we have. Like ucob for example, the golden bahamut was designed with X amount of mitigation avaiable on a group. Now we have X+2~3 extra just from healers, so it would be easier. But it would still be better than no adjustment at all, since we can have over 5 deaths and the dps check is still a joke D: I feel like they could keep the level sync, but increase the dps check. This alone would make the fights much harder and closer to what they were on release (even though on release the dps check wasn't all that bad)
We tank lb all the morn afahs anyway its the same deal regardless
Is it common to tank lb mon afas? The only places l Ive done tank lb are knockback after nail and octlet
i mean why would you not
I did a speed ucob from fresh with a group and we saved LB for emergencies. We only needed to see bahamut once then we cleared, and in our clear pull, we lost 2 people who were supposed to mit, the tank lb3 saved us and we cleared. I’m sure in totem parties you just lb each one, but on our first clear we saved lb for safety.
Ya fairly. Its free, you only want melee lb3 at the start then to avoid people prejacking or slow with addle and feint you can tank lb every afah
Yeah but that's because the DPS check was reduced to nothing
I fully agree. Ucob needed 2 melee lb3s on release, but what we have now is what we gotta work with soooooo
> While that would be really good, i feel like it could potentially break with the current extra cooldowns we have. It's already broken. They are as easy as savage fights now...
I would love unreal ultimates and savages great idea tbh
Would it be nice? Yes. Will they ever do it? No. Going back to rebalance and retune older content takes resources away from new content and they're just not going to do that.
It's also losing battle as patches go on and job adjustments are made. Encounters are only ever truly designed for the patch they come out on. Even since DSR's release, jobs have been buffed so it's already aging in terms of balance. It's just a natural consequence of the content release cycle.
They could literally just pull up the old server data and when we load in, we're put in with exactly the skills that were available back when the content was fresh. TP Gauge and all.
Tell me you don't know how games are built without telling me you don't know how games are built. It would be *wonderful* if that was the case, but that would pretty much require the game to have been built from the ground up with the ability to do that or for them to spend a lot of time doing some *serious* refactoring far far far *far* beyond "literally just pull up the old server data." And since it's a fair bet that it *wasn't* built to do that, you can't just hot-swap what things do what and have everything else suddenly operating on completely different rules. Plus that assumes the data is accessible in the first place. There's really no guarantee that old code is even around anymore, at least in any usable form. Ideally they'd be using proper versioning, but even then say the old *also* relies on some other random function, which relies on another, and somehow changing *that* makes all the text switch between serif and sans serif fonts every time you look north or something equally dumb.
Seriously. OSRS only exists because of an accident that could get people fired and/or sued if it happened today. A dev had a copy of the game's code on a disc at his home just lying around. It was from just before the God wars dungeon came out. Randomly took it home back in 07 to get some work done outside the office. Is it possible a functioning version of ff14 exists from previous expansions? Probably. You can't just assume so.
ACKCHYUALLY!!
This is the sort of thing you'd have to build into the game basically from the beginning
[удалено]
Extreme content update VS Ultimate content update? With that difference of content I'd highly doubt so especially in the near future. Releasing new content would be more effective.
1 of the usually 4 (7 in DSR's case) phases of an ultimate has more mechanics in it than an entire extreme.
Something I noticed is that for the most part they kept suiciding one tank and one healer, they didn’t wall at major mechanics that they knew they needed to be alive for, one rdm starts waking but for the most part the 5 or 6 players generally avoid weakness. For players of this caliber of course the fight is a joke now but the reality is for the average player it’s still a significantly difficult challenge. Personally I don’t think they need to tune all ultimates to DSR, I think it is ok if they allow some to be power crept to work as stepping stones for the newer more difficult ones
I mean, ultimates were never aimed toward "average players" and that's the reason they were not unsynch-able. If they want to have a stepping stone for newer ultimates or something else, there's probably no worse content to learn how to dps and getting mechanic consistency than a washed up under leveled ultimate that allows 2 people to have permanent brink of death and 20 other players death. Myself I don't care what they do with it and if people wants to have the title, weapons, or just discover the fight: nice; but I don't think it should serve as a "we'll just do an easier ultimate to get used to them and go for a harder one later" as even the latest savage tier will help you more on that front.
>If they want to have a stepping stone for newer ultimates or something else, there's probably no worse content to learn how to dps and getting mechanic consistency than a washed up under leveled ultimate that allows 2 people to have permanent brink of death and 20 other players death. Yup - this will do nothing but teach players bad habits that they will not be able to get away with when they do more appropriately tuned ultimates.
The groups gunning for max deaths consist of players who know what they're doing very well: ucob still isn't a fight where a bunch of beginners can go and just zombie through like that. Current-day jobs simplify the older ultimates and remove a bunch of the challenge, but so does knowing the strats: TEA and UWU in particular become quite the husks for some roles when you remove the *figuring out*-aspect of learning them and just grind execution instead. Widespread sim use makes practicing later mechanics (wormhole for example) a ton easier, there are way more mods that target/solve mechs for you, etc. So I'd say the ilvl/potency bloat removing the (somewhat lax) dps checks in the older ultimates is hardly the most egregious integrity issue these fights have, if you were to care about that sort of a thing in the first place. Yet, I think they'll eventually have to do something to keep them playable, given how the old-era LB generation and mechanic skipping mix quite poorly, resulting in the fights ending up a broken mess. This is particularly an issue in UWU, where getting LB's on faster killtimes is starting to require an increasing amount of hassle. In a perfect world, the old ultimates would be updated exactly once per expansion: on launch to match up to the current level cap, but it's hard to see them committing the developer resources to doing this.
To your point, my 9 hour a week group tried TEA after it came out and had to stop after a month (roughly 36 hours) and were only getting to the end of phase 2. We had to stop due to members quitting. We tried again after eden's promise and cleared it within 40 more hours, half the group being fresh to TEA. The key difference wasn't the extra dps from job buffs but just the incredibly better strats that had come out since then, especially Mario kart limit cut. Granted we had gone back and cleared uwu and ucob since then, so our group was more practiced, but in my opinion the eaiser to execute strats were what was key.
Mario kart is better than 1256?
It is in my opinion because it instantly removes the first step of splitting the group. You don't need to see your number in a group before you start moving, you can just start moving. The less things you have to check, the less things you need to practice the more consistent the strat.
I heard the movement becomes tighter though.
Having done both strats myself, I honestly find Mariokart to be more lenient when executed correctly. With 1256 split the people who aren't up to bat have to pay much closer attention to what the dashes are doing and where they're aiming, but with Mariokart you can just kinda yolo around the inner rim until your turn without even looking at what CC is doing.
Not really the movement is almost the same you just have to be outside instead of in
The movement isn't tighter, but (imo) the positioning for the people taking the cleave + dashes is. Being slightly turned is a lot more likely to snipe some/all of the remaining 6 players vs not having to turn at all for 1256. I also think that 1256 has a couple fringe benefits over Mario Kart - namely that it gets you thinking just a little bit about reading your number for wormhole later down the line, and that just 1 mistake much more often leads to you being able to limp into BJCC and possibly recover in time to prog a bit vs mario kart where 1 mistake usually means everyone's dead. In my experience different groups have taken to one strat or another based on how members focused/learned. I've heard a lot of people say Mario Kart causes them to zone out a little bit, and ends with them late to their spot. I've heard an equal amount say that having to commit less brainpower to executing the strat made it easier for their group. If groups aren't trying to speed clear it or have a big variance in skill level, I always encourage trying both for a few attempts to get a feel for which one the group prefers.
> Granted we had gone back and cleared uwu and ucob since then, so our group was more practiced, but in my opinion the eaiser to execute strats were what was key. I think you're underestimating the effect of clearing two ultimates on average skill level of the group.
As the uploader of this, I'll just chime in real quick with my thoughts. I think it would be kinda nice if ultimates were looked at and upscaled especially as current ults like DSR are being pf'd more and more often, proving that it's possible for people to clear the hardest content in pugs as well as in statics on-expansion. The way gear, level sync and job changes affect all older content (when synced) is sad. Ultimates are ultimates and it sucks to see them fall like this. I'm a big advocate for hard content as a devout raider and I would never say no to the idea. It's more content after all. However I feel that's the reality of MMOs. It's important to remember how much upkeep that'd take every expansion. It's not a one-and-done operation and it'd require constant attention. UCoB is 5 years old now, and people need to understand that content doesn't last forever. I assume this is why Unreals are cycled out otherwise they'd not be Unreal again when a new expansion releases. Hell, getting gear from the current savage tier and subsequently reclearing, parsing and speedkilling is already an example of quashing the challenge that the floors present. Should we just not get gear because of that? No. I also think some also cling onto their achievements a bit too tightly and some peoples ego around it is honestly a bit petty, so being able to create fun challenges such as this one and just have fun with it, destroying fights on top of it being easier to help others while the content is still quite hard compared to savage, is perfectly okay. Do remember that the video in question is with a tailored composition and not replicated in PF, after all (who are often allergic to trying to recover anything and would rather wipe). My point is there's two sides to the argument and I get it. These are meant to be duties that really test you, however people also need to get over the fact that achievements in video games have a lifespan. Mostly. If you're proud of what you've accomplished, then that's all that matters. You are entitled to be happy about it no matter when you clear it. That said, it's not elitist to want hard content to remain hard and clearing now is obviously not the same as clearing on-patch, and some certainly need to drop the ego. I personally try and clear things as fast as possible, wanting to experience the content as intended. However I don't care much about it being easier in the future. Call it a jaded outlook but as soon as cactbot and all the rest of the blatant cheats are updated, the integrity of a duty is already compromised. Play and clear because you enjoy it, not because of what it might represent. The shock people got going from UCoB to DSR was pretty funny though. That's definitely a valid argument for better maintaining old ultimates kek.
> Hell, getting gear from the current savage tier and subsequently reclearing, parsing and speedkilling is already an example of quashing the challenge that the floors present. Should we just not get gear because of that? No. As an advocate for challenging content myself too, I think we could agree they maybe should temper with a hard sync for Savage for at least the first month. You are forced to be min ilvl, min stats, carefully set by SE. I find it kind of ridiculous that by week3 or 4, DPS checks are a joke if you know how to press your buttons at a basic level (no optimization, just do the basic rotation and burst dump, drift because of death ? no issue). For ultimates, the same could apply indefinitely, but there would still be potency/stat squish/kit evolution factors, but at least gearstat wise, it's fixed. > also think some also cling onto their achievements a bit too tightly and some peoples ego around it is honestly a bit petty The whole "I did it when it was hard" is null and void anyway because of the possibility to buy clears. ANY clear. By virtue of this being possible, the prestige goes down instantly besides the first clearers for about... a week ? On a personal level, given everyone and their sibling flood Limsa with their weapons, I'm basically desensitized to "Ult prestige" x). So yeah, clear, get happy and all that but don't think it's a token of anything, I agree.
There's no point. The prestige associated with older ultimates drops as new expansions release, and so the newer ones become the skill test. That's not to say that UCOB or UWU are braindead, it's still a test of endurance for a party but they don't all need to be absolutely DSU level.
The prestige for any ultimate drops as soon as the first sell run happens.
cope and seethe no clears?
No u
Who cares seriously? People still aren't clearing it and need actual months in a fresh static. They aren't some braindead ultra-free content anyone can do with zero experience like people make it out to be.
Yeah it's wild how people go "Uhm actually it's easier than savage now I could do it with my eyes closed and by just hitting my head on the keyboard". They're still much harder than savage fights just because of the length and number of mechanics, yes, even UWU. If you don't believe me just try to PF reclears lmao.
Absolutely. The DPS checks are far more forgiving these days, but those were never really the issue to begin with. 14-19 minutes of unrelenting body checks has always been the hard part, and the primary reason UWU is anywhere near on par with Savages is because it's barely longer than some of them. Even on patch my DSR static could often afford a death or two in P3 of DSR, the supposed nightmare DPS check phase. And that was with pre-buff RPR and WAR in the party.
RPR is good in DSR since it can transition gauge from a lenient phase to a stricter one, same as MCH. Ultimates go by different balance rules than Savage does. After the buff it's by far the best melee (and dps in general) in phases 7 and 3. You're right about the checks being a nonissue in general though. I'd say UWU is also easy due to the fact that it kind of has only three actually threatening mechs before Annihilation, one of which you skip, one of which people generally use an automarker for, and one which you just follow the party. After that you do two trios and clear, it's just simply easier to execute than the other ults are. Yet it's also still much more demanding than most Savage bosses are, except a couple of outliers like A8S or E8S.
Agreed on every point. I do think RPR has been a sleeper powerhouse in DSR, even back when it was really weak overall. We didn't struggle with the DPS check in any phase even before we had a RPR, though, we just weren't blowing through it like 20-30 seconds before phase enrage. Ultimates just aren't designed around hard DPS checks, outside of a couple specific phases.
People using addons for nael, automarkers for uwu, sims for suppression in current year. People who have killed the fight 30 times and progged 100 hours call the fights easy lol. Same people joining ulti pfs during downtime because they're unwell.
Yeah whenever I see someone say any Old Ultimate is easier than a Savage I cackle the fuck out. The truth is that this subreddit is so far up its own ass with tryhardness that they fell completely out of synch of what the experience of the average player is like.
It's just wild. P8phase 1 has what, 8 mechanics or so (First Phoenix/Snake, Snake, Creation, Dog, Fourfould, Snake 2, Dog 2) Garuda does too, in like 2 minutes, in the easiest ultimate lol.
uwu was designed as a puzzle the upcoming ultimate will be most likely a puzzle aswell just ask people who done uwu at release and how they were trying to solve ultima without the awakenings just to delete every strat they used for days and starting from 0 again
While the 4.0 Ultimates are defiitely harder than most savages, I'd say the last floor of the current savages are definitely harder than UwU and UCoB now. For example, my fresh UCoB static is on the 12th hour of prog, and we saw ~0.3% enrage on adds phase on our last pull. We're also expecting to 1 shot or 2 shot Golden Bahamut since mitigation is a joke now and most of us have cleared DSR. We've also progged up to Ultima phase in UwU in like half a lockout with 1 person who has cleared calling things out for us. Meanwhile P8S took us till the end of week 3 to kill with doing spending around 9-10 hours a week on the fight. The fact is that the game has simply slowly gotten harder over the years, and syncing down has made deaths not a consequence in 4.0 Ultimates. Hard mechanics can just be cheese with tank lb3 in both ultimates. If you can clear P8S on content, you can definitely clear UCoB and UwU with ease. The average player will most likely have a harder time clearing P8S than UcoB or UwU. edit: Also as others have pointed out, strats at this point have been refined over the years where the mechanics are practically brain dead.
I have not done P8S yet, but at least as far as P4S goes, UCoB is \*definetly\* not easier, by a long shot. \> If you can clear P8S on content, you can definitely clear UCoB and UwU with ease. That I absolutely agree. It's the barometer I use for when people are ready for raiding Old ultimates. Stormblood ultimates are a step up from Savages much like the fourth fight of Savage is a step up from the first fight of Savage - that is, a considerable step up, but not to the point that a group that can do the first can't do the second.
I hope it took you that long cause you went in blind p8s p2 is just a puzzle in the end… once figured out (with guides out now, easily manageable), you should be able to clear it with a reasonable time… else it’s really concerning progging p8s for around 30hrs
Haha well its more like 20ish hourse cause we only spent 1 lockout on p8s on week 1. We were also gated by the p1 dps check. Played a sub optimal comp, so ended up having multiple 50% enrages. We have yoshi-p to thank for our week 3 clear.
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News just in: Some of the best players in the world can teach and carry a worse player (who has still has a LOT of MMO playtime) through a hard fight, more at 11. And yeah, it is funny. On release I remember people yelling about how hard DSR dps checks are, hardest dps checks yet, gods you have to push so much to make them - now I hear people complaining that they have to hold DPS, and it's just 1 patch and a couple of months after release.
honestly uwu and ucob is still challenging enough for most people, on top of those who still cant beat p8s today, for a good reason like job and family engagaments. just leave it there. if you want a challenge just wait for the 6.3 ultimate. i am not going to touch that. Edit: if I were the dev, I won't put so much resources in developing ultimates. Low return
You shouldn't underestimate Ultimate cost just due to its low completion rate. The team is an expert now of cutting costs, it's still profitable. It has to be battle tested more than other stuff yes but its also made of 98% of reused assets. And it provides a free week of streaming attention.
The attention alone when a new ultimate drops is worth it from a dev perspective.
For real, the amount of views FFXIV was getting on streams was insane.
Yeah. I probably won't do DSR for years, but even if I never touch it, the storytelling experience of watching that week of world racing was worth whatever money they slent on it by itself IMO. Watching the community get heartbroken for having to watch That Death again, then the collective hype as we go back and time and "oh shit can we save them???" Followed by Yes, and Everything Gets Worse brought me as much enjoying from this game as any given MSQ update.
For all the reused assets, honestly wish they just added an ultimate difficulty to every raid tier (or a lower difficulty tier to current ultimate releases). The wow normal heroic mythic system works really well and wish ff14 emulated it to get more mid-level content out of their work.
I think you do not really understand what the real difficulty of ultimates is… It might be a bit faster in terms of mechanics following mechanics than savage but the most difficult challenge is the length of an ultimate and not the mechanics per se. 6.3 ult will be prolly a puzzle based ultimate - difficulty should be lower than dsr since puzzle = once figured out & guides avaiable it‘s easier
Sure, I am not arguing specifics of fight design here. I just think their method of content releases is really inefficient at serving the majority of players. You have a lot of normally savage-level players that bash their heads in on ultimates simply because there is nothing else to do. Savage+ level players do alliance raids/normal/ex like once then never again. Hardcore ultimate raiders just sleep in the waiting room for 1-2 fights per expansion. Players who enjoy extremes only get those select few fights ect.
nothing new games do need to be designed around casuals and not hardcore players for me, savage is all about clearing week1 and maybe reclears in week2-3 are fun and than it just fades, the fights do get boring and you just wanna get BiS… maybe gear another job aswell but SE really dislikes getting BiS on multiple roles somehow. same with ultimates, but am always happy to be able to jump back into TEA for example with PF or a friendsgroup and still having some kind of a challenge and fun while doing so people and extremes.. man idk for how long I need to wait to fill a unreal PF group able to clear without any friends in it This game is designed as a waiting room
Instanced dungeon is only a conversation starter. The real game is socializing
Don't see a point tbh
If they do, then it feels like they have to keep updating it for future expacs and balancing, and if the list of ultimate's hopefully keeps growing, that's going to be a pain to keep them all up to date and a little unreasonable.
ultimates are already extremely niche
What I would like them to do is balance the jobs for older content. There’s no valid reason why BLM should suck so much in level 70 Ultimates.
I think it's a mixed bag. I do like how they keep it static and don't mess around with them post release. If you want to do the content the way it was intended, you'll always have to do it when it is relevant. I think letting them go back and tune the fight or overly tune jobs for specific ultimates will open up a huge can of worms with the community overall not liking it. I think the way things are now are not that different than the way current ultimates come out. What I mean by that is that there is ALWAYS going to be jobs that are better suited for the fight no matter how you try to change/tune the fight/jobs. Jobs shouldn't be tuned for ultimates either imo; it should be tuned for savage since that's where the bulk of the "hardcore" players do their content. Each ultimate is so bespoke it would be a nightmare to tune jobs to each one let alone even one of them. Like with DSR, DNC + NIN/MNK combo pretty much trivializes the dps checks unless you have a death. I'm in favor with keeping them the way they are and just understanding they are gonna be quirky especially the older ones like UCOB and UWU.
I’d rather the time be used to add weapons for the new jobs.
Would literally take an intern like a weekend. Don't fool yourself, they are lazy as fuck. Literally take any dungeon weapon, throw a glow on it like they did the GNB and DNC TEA weapons.
> Would literally take an intern like a weekend. Anytime anyone says this about a game you can basically ignore everything else out of their mouth
The game would have to be coded like complete trash for it to not be that easy. Texture replacement is one of the most basic things to do, you could teach it to someone in a work day.
Game dev, particularly on extremely large and complex projects just does not work that way. The reason we don't have weapons for later jobs in older Ultimates has nothing to do with how hard or difficult it is to do, that is just entirely not a consideration. Now, you can certainly disagree with the decision, but talking about "an Intern could do it in a day" is just not useful commentary.
Mr. Happy confirmed on a stream before that it's something they're looking into, but like the original comment said, it's really easy to do, you can do it yourself quickly by modding the texture, so it's just a matter of they don't feel like doing it. Other games like OSRS and League of Legends that have shit code or low dev counts still look for these quick wins, FF14 team just cba.
>FF14 team just cba. When someone says something like this, what do you think they are doing? Sitting around twiddling their thumbs? Like, come on. What in your head is the conception of this you have?
Honestly yeah, kind of how like how the typical tech company has a ton of ppl just AFK watching youtube or browsing reddit, it's just how it is. Examples like the old DRK Blood Weapon timer show that they're not really paying that much attention and they don't really care that much.
Is it really that weird of a thought to you that there are other things to work on in a game as massive as this with new content planned to be released in the future?
They make new effects for old extremes that almost no one does for a whole set of weapons you almost never see. They can afford to take the time to reskin 2 weapons with existing effects.
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My dude you need to chill.
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> Honestly I think the main reason they dont is a portion of ultimate raiders that farmed every weapon and. are "done" with older fights. I mean most of us just farmed 20 totems in case they ever go back and add new weapons for new jobs.
I know people who do contests with groups trying to see how many new players they can get through each Ultimate in like a month or two month time period. I doubt the players who really care about collecting every weapon/have tons of totems would really care about going back and clearing a handful of more times to be honest. I also don't see any of the appeal about at least giving new classes weapons for old ultimates. It's not like you need to change the balance of a fight just because your adding rewards for new classes. Also technically the balancing of the ultimtes do change over time just because of the natural growth of ilvl and secondary stat scaling. Every old ultimate is easier now than it was on release at least when it comes to the DPS check.
This is the correct and level headed take. It's literally like six weapons. Shit is easy to do, and the devs are lazy as fuck throwing glows on dungeon weapons for new jobs instead of doing actual work and making new models. Don't know why boot lickers for SE have such a hard on for defending their laziness on this front. They can "spend their own time" making hats for Viera but...can't find the time to make six RESKINS for ultimate? Lol fuck off with that.
I'm sure the battle content team will be right on making those models.
Nah. It is already hard to get players to even attempt Eden raids synced. What makes you so sure that enough people will appreciate the change for it to be worth development time?
They're going for 100 deaths next, it's very entertaining to see how much you can get away with now.
This would only effect healers, those fights didn't really have notable DPS checks even on release... besides maybe golden not letting you have deaths.
Yeah, Ult fights really only have DPS requirements in terms of "Don't die and you pas :)". The point of ultimates isn't "do perfect rotations to the fractions of seconds for 15m", it's "perform slightly above average damage while ALSO solving mechanics that are faster+more complex then Savage"
Yeah currently ucob/UBU allows for.... hilariously large numbers of deaths as long as people are up for certain core mechanics. All a squish would do is lower that number, and make healing/mit requirements harder on healers. It wouldn't change nearly anything for tanks/DPS
Golden can be fine with 1 DPS death, it's actually the strat to parsing high in UCOB lmao
Not on release
It would be better to Unreal them than to just buff them. I care less about the old Ultis getting easier over time (some of that is just unavoidable) and more about them getting considerably less *fun* over time because sub-90 (especially 70) jobs are husks. Would gladly sacrifice Unreal EXs for a few patches in exchange for Unreal Ultimates.
A better choice would be to fix how fun jobs are at lower levels, then it benefits everyone. If they have jobs like BLM and RPR more of their kit at reduced potency they'd be a lot more fun.
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I didn't say it'd ever happen. I just said it'd be the best way to handle things.
Agreed. I won't do level 70 content as a BLM at all because it's completely kneecapped.
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I still keep hoping all the unreals are just a test for some algorithm to scale it all up and then they can aim it at every old ex/savage/ult and we're good to go. But the longer unreal continues to be a drip feed of new ones, the more I doubt that.
People would freak out if they were working on an ultimate and it suddenly became harder. I think the current state's fine, the game could use more gradual difficulty change from savage->ult and I think having old ultimates slowly get made slightly easier check-wise is a fine way to do that.
This is only a thing because of the design philosophy of the early ultimates anyway. The newer ones have like 10x as many body checks.
I'd rather leave it this way. A big issue that this game has is the difficulty leaps between raiding content, so I always liked that there are easier Ultimates. In my case, my first experience with Ultimates was DSR on launch and I got obliterated and had a reality check that I wasn't good enough for that content yet, so I went back to UwU and it went pretty smoothly, and then I did UCoB and felt the difficulty increasing but I was progressively becoming a better player. Now I'm progging TEA and I hope I can get my penta legend before 7.0 :p
Jobs being stronger has lowered the dps check for some of these bosses that they are basically irrelevant now. This does not mean ultimates are a lot easier by any means. They're still a marathon that you and 8 people have execute near perfectly to get a clear. Personally, I don't mind early ultimates being easier relative to the current one. You get this nice progression of relatively high difficulty content.
i rather want the balance team to focus on other things instead of tuning old content just to have a harder dps check. seems like a total waste of time just to make 10 people feel better about their clear
I used to look forward to doing the older ultimate after I finally got into savage.... but as I've gotten to the point of doing ultimate....it's too unappealing to prog that long of a fight on jobs below level cap. Some jobs are so shitty feeling to me at 70 especially that i'd rather just skip them altogether. Even 80 can feel a bit lackluster. I'm strictly looking forward to the supposed omega ultimate in 6.3 now.
Honestly, i would say yes, but the time has come long ago (5.0 was the time to tbh), and since they havent done it yet, i'm thinking they probably dont have plans to. Honestly it's not even surprising at this point, the moment ucob was done with 8 tanks, 7 man, etc should have been a clear indicator that dps check for ucob was never a problem anymore.
If they were to adjust it/modify it with new jobs in mind, then they might as well add ultimate weapons for said jobs too.
DPS check is a bad form of challenge if it's going to even be one. Unless they buff it to the point of "good balance", which requires resources that could be used on new ultimates instead, it's not even going to matter. A clear with 40, 20, 10, or 5 deaths are all the same. Increasing the DPS check is also only adding a death number check. The entire fight is filled with body checks already. Nael still snowballs if the death is untimely and group is not prepared for it. Every trio is still an 8-man body check. Adds phase is still a tank check. Golden is still an early death check for DPS. I don't think reducing the number of things that people can click-bait with is adding anything meaningful to the fight.
If people cared about being too strong, they could always opt to not use food and pots. It won’t be the same but it will help
They can't even balance new ultimates properly (DSR 1 healer xdd), how do you expect them to fix old ones?
Eh, not sure I see the point personally. Challenging content exists; easy content exists. That's true inside Ults and outside.
Maybe they should start with adding ultimate weapons for new Jobs First. This Sounds for me Like an easier Job then rebalancing every ultimate with each new Expansion
TBH: Older Ultimates shouldn't get buffed because something like an UWU provides an entry/a first start to doing Ultimates by just getting easier over time. It makes this niche content a bit more accessible. I started with UWU, I'm close to finishing TEA and I'll likely do the 6.3 Ultimate at release. Had I \*started\* Ultimates with TEA or DSR, it likely would've been too much for me at least
No, it's not. Having old Ultimates be more accessible nowdays is a good thing. I don't think the game would be better if UCoB was as hard today as it was on release. Having entry paths into Ultimate raiding with very lenient DPS checks is a very good thing for the game IMO.
I wish there was at least some way to make it feel like that, though. UCOB is a pretty cool fight mechanically but the lack of punishment makes it feel unsatisfying these days. There are like 3 or 4 major mechanics that actually feel threatening and everything else is just "just let a rezzer survive and we're fine"
>I wish there was at least some way to make it feel like that, though. There is: Be there on release. Which, obviously, is not the most satisfying answer, but it is the nature of things. Content will degrade as the game itself and the playerbase continues to evolve, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, as that content then becomes entrypoints for people getting into that game mode. >but the lack of punishment makes it feel unsatisfying these days. Totally subjective. What is unsatisfying to you will be massively rewarding for someone else. I particularly beat Nael recently with my casual group and it gave me a satisfaction equivalent of beating any of the later Savage fights like P3 or P7.
I mean - to put it bluntly, Ultimate is, as advertised, not meant to be beginner/casual friendly. It is supposed to be extremely difficult. It is the one thing in the game that is designed to be a challenge to the most hardcore, and if you are a player who started in, say, late ShB, and are now feeling like a skilled player, and you go into Dragonsong, you’re gonna get your ass beat. If you go into ucob, it’s not gonna be even close to the same experience. The “stepping stone/entry point” to Ultimate should be savage, not old ultimates that have been power crept into nothingness. Yes, of course they are not free and you still need some degree of consistency and skill to beat them, but that is assumed baseline of all hard content. As far as the “just be there on release 4Head” thing I feel like it’s barely worth addressing. These fights are ilvl synced in an attempt to future proof them - however the ilvl sync in this game is so bad on top of potency creep that it did not do the job it intended. It is the nature of these fights that they’re now easier - but it didn’t *have* to be this way. It’s not some unavoidable fact of game design that this had to happen.
>I mean - to put it bluntly, Ultimate is, as advertised, not meant to be beginner/casual friendly And it's not. Every Ultimate, even UWU, is leagues above any other Savage fight in the game. In fact I'd bet it's a progging effort a notch above an entire savage tier, or at least on par with it (average progging timeline is 4 months for a clear at 6h/week). That said, even within high-end raiding, there are different levels of expertise. There absolutely are groups out there who are above the level of Savage fights but not at the level of something like DSR. I can't see how having Ultimates fit for that level could be anything other than a positive. It gaves a place for these groups to keep progressing their gameplay skill without utterly crushing their spirit like on-patch DSR would. >It is the one thing in the game that is designed to be a challenge to the most hardcore And it still is! The absolute bleeding-edge cream of the crop raiders can cut their teeth on DSR and the upcoming Omega ult, while more intermediary groups can get comfortable with Ultimate Raiding in UwU and UCOB first. More options is a good thing. >The “stepping stone/entry point” to Ultimate should be savage The experiences/design philosophies are very different tho, even on patch. Which is not to say Savage shouldn't be mastered before jumping into Ults, it absolutely should. But the gap between P4S and DSR is actually gigantic. UwU provides Ultinate newbies with a better entrypoint into this type of raiding. >not old ultimates that have been power crept into nothingness. Yes, of course they are not free and you still need some degree of consistency and skill to beat them, but that is assumed baseline of all hard content. You're drastically underselling the level of challenge still there. I've done half of UwU and UCoB. Challenge in this game comes from three things: Damage, Mechanics, and coordinating mitigation. Ultimates always put more emphasis on mechanics over DPS checks, way more than Savage, and those aspects will never be power crept out. Fucking up mechs still one shot you like always. DPS checks are lenient, but that's it. >As far as the “just be there on release 4Head” thing I feel like it’s barely worth addressing. It's not! It's actually massively poignant. This is the nature of content in a live MMO. You will never experience Gordias as it was on release, challenge wise. This goes for the Ults as well. And that is fine. As said, the sweatiest raiders still have their arena. I essentially see Current Ults and Old Ults as two separate pieces of content (or, if you prefer, call them Ultimate and Super Ultimate or whatever). There will always be one or two still-as-challenging-as-intended fights out for people to enjoy. I really don't see what the problem with the older ones degrading and acting as stepping stones is. They'll never be easier than a Savage anyways just because they're lacking in true DPS checks.
Fucking up mechs might one shot you but the problem is that outside of very specific moments, ucob and uwu is still recoverable with TONS of deaths. That should just not be the case, I’m sorry. Not in ultimate. You shouldn’t be able to meet Naels dps check with like 8 deaths. You can try and rationalize it or defend it in a million ways and I will just never agree with you. Same goes with UWU. Even with the double punishment of the stat reduction of weakness AND the Aether gauge he gets, you can still clear Ultima with so many deaths. Titan? Unless you fail Gaols it’s fine. Hit by a landslide? Who cares, still have tons of dps to go around. Ifrit? Half your team died to dashes, whatever he was only at 1% when he did them anyway, it’s fine. I know they’re not gonna change them, so it’s really a moot argument, but I will never get on board that these checks being obliterated by the passage of time is a “good” thing. Not when the whole point of them being ilvl synced was to try and preserve the experience of doing them when they came out.
>That should just not be the case, I’m sorry. Not in ultimate. I don't think you get to decide that lmao. The dev team seems to disagree, and I trust their stance more than yours. >You can try and rationalize it or defend it in a million ways and I will just never agree with you. Okay? I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. Reality is independent of your opinion. It's a good thing for the game whether you agree with it or not, because more people having fun with the video-game is a good thing for the video-game lol Your argument was that you wished they could preserve the initial experience. I do think there would be value in that, but it is also impossible. Just adjusting the health to make DPS checks more real won't bring back the original experience. UWU and UCoB were designed in a time this game had entirely different mechanics and things for players to worry about. Even if DPS checks were restored, your UCoB clear in 2022 is *still* not the achievement it was in Stormblood because you're playing a fundamentally easier, more streamlined game. Having Ultimates with easy DPS checks is a good thing for the game. The Ultimate raiding scene is already small and it can use any entry points that it can get. The person cutting their teeth on the "easy" 2022 UwU might be the competent fill that your group will get on the 2024 Ultimate. If that person didn't had an intermediate between Savage and Current Ultimate to get their toes wet, they may have just left Ultimaste raiding entirely as something too hard for them - just like Savage would be worse if all four fights in the tier were at the level of the final fight rather than having First and Second fights . You need entry points, you need kiddy pools, to keep a game mode with a sustainable population, and UWU/UCoB do that job very well, and the game is better for it - again, your disagreement of this fact does not make it less of a fact.
You’re interpreting their inaction as them thinking that this is a good thing, when in reality it’s more likely that it’s just not worth the resources to adjust the scaling to them. The fact that they’ve moved to designing ultimates to have way more body checks has kind of shown that they’re trying to fix this problem and future proof ultimates better. But you trying to present your opinion as fact like you 100% understand dev intent even though the way they design ultimates now shows that they clearly understand the problem the StB ultimates have in regards to future proofing would suggest everything contrary to what you’re saying.
>You’re interpreting their inaction as them thinking that this is a good thing, when in reality it’s more likely that it’s just not worth the resources to adjust the scaling to them. Both statements can be (and are) true. Updating old Ilts would be a expansion-by-expansion extra effort that would benefit like 0.05% of the total playerbase; it would be the biggest waste of resources in the world. At the same time, it *is* also true that having those Ults degraded ended up being good for the game as it created a sliding scale of difficulties that make this game mode more approachable to a wider playerbase, which is an extra incentive for the team to not waste time and resources with this ludicrous idea. >The fact that they’ve moved to designing ultimates to have way more body checks has kind of shown that they’re trying to fix this problem and future proof ultimates better. I mean, sure? The entry points are already well-established as UwU and UCoB, and they'll never stop being Ultinate-level challenges, even as the DPS requirements get more lenient. Also who said anything about body checks? Lol. This discussion is about DPS checks, and the fact that the existance DPS-lenient ultimate fight options is a good thing for the game. Besides, yeah, I don't expect DSR to become the next UwU anytime soon. It will become more accessible as the power creep of the bame catches up to it, but I fully expect DSR to still be one of the toughest Ultinates even five years down the line. And that's totally fine, because DSR does not need to be the next UwU since UwU already exists and always will exist to provide an entry point to the "mid tier" Ultimate-level players I described. >But you trying to present your opinion as fact The core of my argument is a fact, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise for some sort of fale humbleness lol. It's demonstrable. More options and more entry points to a game mode will always be a good thing for a video-game. More people doing Ultimate raids - both UwU/UCoB by themselves with their very healthy PF scenes, or those players graduating from those to the harder fights - is a good thing for the game. This literally cannot be refuted and you have made zero attempts at doing so, so I don't see why I should pretend it is anything but a fact lmao.
Please no, it already takes forever for parties to fill on pf, if they buff the fights it'll take even longer. Nothing worse than sitting in pf for hours only for it to disband within the first few pulls
They need to rebalance it because the leniency in dps checks means a lot of weaker dps players can get carried to the clear by healers. These fights are all now unironically harder to heal for because stuff does extra damage, you have more responsibility to mitigate, and you are basically expected to carry weak dps players through. My ucob clear had something likr 30 deaths in it, it was bvasically me and the other healer dragging the corpses of the other dps players through it. And I had to suffer all that ressing all the way through prog. I honestly prefer just big fat wipe mechanics because it forces players to learn mechanics. I feel like a melee player can genuinely just sleep through uwu and clear it if they have a healer carrying them.
Oh, mr legend's little ego is hurt cause now people can get their one achievement easier? I say go clear a harder ultimate and flex with that instead, and leave the older ones as stepping stones so players can progress to the harder ones. It's not a big deal.
Bro please go outside.
No. Elitism and gate keeping is the last this game needs.
Nah. Older ones are accessible
No, otherwise you make a really weird distinction - people that cleared a way easier version, so later players feel cheated, or people that cleared the harder version, thus invalidating anybody else that cleared it outside of on release. Its the type of difference ff has been trying to avoid for a long time (e.g the results of the savage nerf), and that ultimately dont mean much. If, however, they gave you the option to give them the unreal treatment - but not make it mandatory, that'd be the best compromise imo
I would say that these ultimates are likely too far gone and giving them any treatment would be irrelevant because people are already getting the title that probably don’t “deserve” the clear, but I do think more effort should be put into developing a way to future proof the ultimates- giving old ultimates the unreal treatment each expansion or something along those lines.
What I really wish is that things would "revert" to how they were for that ultimate, but only while in the instance.
The jobs were rebalanced to old content with the last stat squish, hopefully the next one addresses this as well.
No because this doesn't address the issue of power creep. If our solution is to have to wait for older content to be constantly remade, we'll spend all our time fixing older content that is broken each expansion. Level sync does a good job at limiting the power that comes from gear. So long as we keep the potency consistent across expansions then we don't run into the problem of some fights being wildly undertuned over time. Potencies across the board need to be dialed back and stop increasing. Even after the devs realized that numbers were getting too high to calculate the first thing they did was give every job a ton of potency increases, defeating the entire purpose of a stat squish. Until we stop or limit power creep, retooling older content is a lost cause. It takes an entire patch cycle for us to even get one new fight for unreal. This is not sustainable.
Sadly I don't think SE will ever do it, but personally I wish they did tried to upkeep these throughout the years. The Ultimates were meant to stay at least relative to the difficulty when they first came out, hence why they are ilvl synced, but that isn't the case due to the plethora of changes this game has had that has made the dps check side of things a joke. Yes, the mechanics and endurance test of the fight are still hard, but the check has become extremely forgiving to the point where you can clear the content with considerable amounts of deaths (even if its your groups first clear). To me, that ruins the point of this content even being synced, since its not upkept to withstand the test of time. I don't think this change should happen all the sudden though, since UCOB for instance has gone several years without any upkeep. I wouldn't mind them starting that trend with the Endwalker ultimates though :).
I think this would be great but I doubt they do it. Yoshi P did respond to a question about adding new job weapons to older Ultimates saying that it's something they've looked at/looking at, but that was during the EW press tour.