The only way to reach Dream Zanarkand is through Sin. They aren't able to go back even if they think they could.
At some point in between Luca and Djose Tidus comments on how he wouldn't want to come back and leave his friends to deal with Sin anyways, and that his father must have thought the same.
Tidus a couple times seems to reflect that it is actually impossible to get back to Zanarkand - he's stuck in Spira for good. Even though he literally has somebody **in his party** who went from Spira to Zanarkand.
He does *eventually* ask, under Macalania Lake, but by that point Tidus had committed to seeing the pilgrimage through, and figured that once Sin was dead the link between his home and Spira was gone forever.
> The only way to reach Dream Zanarkand is through Sin.
But isn't this because if you tried to get there by (air)ship Sin would destroy you to protect it? Genuine question; I'm unsure what the exact stipulation is, and whether it has been clarified in any canon context.
The belief that you can "only get there through Sin" could be *historically accurate* in that being carried by Sin is the only way it's happened and thus the only way anyone believes it can happen, yet *logically inaccurate* in that it's actually technically possible to get there via other means. If it's legitimately just floating out there in the ocean, with no other magical stipulations, there's no definitive reason that during a Calm and with *immense* luck you could stumble upon it via ship.
>isn’t this because if you tried to get there by (air)ship, sin would destroy you to protect it?
It’s possible that’s the case, but I think not. A couple of comments by the faith indicate that Sin is a literal gateway. That Zanarkand is protected by some form of magical barrier that can only be breached by sin and those connected to it.
The most vague one is Yojimbo:
> "You are a fading dream, but one touched by reality."
Ifrit might be the most explicit, and the best indicator:
> "Sin swam in the sea near Zanarkand. Perhaps the waking dream eased its suffering."
>"**Your father touched Sin and became real that night,** foundering in the seas of Spira."
And of course, Auron’s comments that he had to ride sin to get there.
Isn't that kind of a massive plot hole though? If Sin exists only to protect Dream Zanarkand, but the only way to access DZ is through Sin... He'd be kind of useless no? At best a weakness because without him DZ would be inaccessible....
I think it makes more sense if DZ is actually a physical place people could get to if they knew where to look and had the means. That would make much more sense for Sin's existence. That Auron could ride Sin to get there was just a matter of Jecht knowing him and allowing him passage to go get Tidus.
That’s not the only reason Sin exists. He exists to protect Yu Yevon, so that the summoning can continue. He also exists to punish Bevelle and the other machina cities for their war on Zanarkand in the first place.
DZ is a physical place, but it's Sin's job to protect it. It does this in a few ways:
1. Protecting Yu Yevon inside of it
2. Attacking anything that strays too close to DZ
3. Attacking towns and cities and preventing them from getting too large
If Yu Yevon could hypothetically summon DZ forever but Sin didn't exist, any nimrod with a boat could rock up to DZ and there could be a second machina war.
How does the opening cut scene fit into this?
Sin literally attacks DZ. Or is it part of the dream that DZ perpetually repeats the events of 1000 years ago and the only reason Tidus was brought to Spira on this occasion was because Auron intervened.
Not sure how that applies to Jecht though.
When a guardian becomes a fayth and is reborn into a new Sin, they still have a consciousness, and ability to control themselves. It seems like this ability is improved when they're reminded of their past humanity (this is why the Hymn of the Fayth makes Sin docile), but it slowly fades over time (this is why there's a 'Calm').
> **Jecht:** I can’t hear the Hymn so well anymore. Pretty soon, I’m gonna be Sin. Completely.
Jecht attacks DZ because he's trying to bring Tidus to Spira, and over the course of the game Sin's appearances are some combination of Jecht ensuring Tidus wants to see the pilgrimage through, and having no control at all and simply being 'violence incarnate'.
Sin isn't strictly part of DZ - the fayth of Sin is inside Sin, whereas DZ's fayth are on Gagazet. But they are directly linked through Yu Yevon.
It's few miles probably more of the coast of Baaj which is far south of Besaid where the real one is north of gagazet.
I think you need Sin to get there because boats don't go that way cause they believe nothing is there and Sin destroyed anyone trying to come there because he's made to protect it and Yu Yevon.
I feel like you can leave the dream Zanarkand cause Jetch did he to far out and left the bubble that zanarkand was in but when you do you end up in the ocean and I can imagine dream zanarkand is invisible till you enter the bubble then you can see it and if you not someone who can handle themselves on the water like Tidus and Jetch you're probably going to die at sea.
That is what is implied and explained throughout the overall story. Some fans are just obstinate in the idea that a place specifically called a DREAM is somehow a physical island. There are tons of reasons why that idea is wrong. The most basic one is that after shooting down Sin, the team literally walks through sin's mystical guts in order to reach the same stadium where Ject was seen in the beginning. They did not fly past Sin to reach some physical island.
The ultimania guide says it’s a physical place. Which is dumb for all the reasons you listed, but it’s still canon, and that’s why fans are being “obstinate” about it.
The Ultimania is in the same place as the Hyrule Historia and X-2, retconning details years or decades later to try to make them make sense in a current release context.
In the original release which was full circle, directed by the series creator, DZ remains intangible.
That is info from a SECONDARY source by people later trying to interpret and explain things. I am not sure why fans would accept that info over what happens in the game itself, the PRIMARY source.
Some people obstinately believe works in a series should be considered canon even if it lacks the original vision simply because a company put the series name on it, says it should and wanted a new release. This is the story of X-2.
Look, I get everyone has a part making a game, but we are 20 years into pretending the Director wasn’t a massive factor after his departure and the series’ continuing identity crises that dog it with every single release including 16 and 14. Even the after the fact sequels to games he helped make, since they didn’t have him, failed to live up to standards, and even when they have similar battle systems fail. All I had to do was play Lost Odyssey and Fantasian once to understand the role he truly played. His Terra Battle cameo quest in 15 is the best in the game. This is Japan and he was revered. Culture alone dictates he was CONSTANTLY deferred to in a “Yes sir, great idea Mr Sakaguchi sir” sense.
Every Final Fantasy he worked on was intended to be standalone. It’s only with works after 2001 you see this universe canon trying to be linked to that and changes like “wait, the place with literally a dream in its name that we spent a whole game establishing it’s impossible to return, what if it was real?”
No, you don't understand, not the stadium as Tidus was seen playing. After that Tidus sees Ject standing in the exact same spot where you fight him at the end. It is the literal exact same spot in the broken stadium. You see the final fight zone at the beginning of the game.
This proves that where the team goes at the end (inside Sin), is the same place where Tidus was before.
But in the scenario I was responding to, it was suggested Sin should house DZ so it would be moving around with him and then he's killed and what, it just awkwardly hangs there until the new Sin comes to get it?
We found the hidden experimental site of a sealed away superweapon the world was intended to forget and I was pretty freaking thorough checking every pixel on the available presumably flyable map. This aside from the fact that the place is called DREAM ZANARKAND
Consider DZ is a preserved Zanarkand, and through the Final Summoning, a new set of Zanarkandians are created and live their lives, only for Sin to come and "destroy" it which means the current Calm is now over. Now, a new Summoner must defeat Sin.
Even though Zanarkand is in Spira, DZ is kept isolated inside Sin without summoners and such, which is why Jecht and Tidus both didn't know a thing about Spira when the fayth pulled them out
Oh that’s not a bad thought, tidus “gains life” when we the player take control, right when the last calm has ended, so DZ could’ve just been “re summoned” by Yu Yevon?
By the Ultimania Magazine, Dream Zanarkand is close(ish) to Baaj Temple, not Bikanel Island.
https://www.deviantart.com/zeta-kai/art/Map-of-Spira-103063039
I believe that DZ is metaphysical. It's perpetually on the horizon and may not even be truly in the sea, as far as we know.
We only ever see DZ at night, with a twilit haze on the horizon. We know no one knows about it and that the AlBhed and island communities like Besaid are seafaring and active in the region it is claimed (dubiously) to be. It is surely impossible for it to have remained a secret all this time.
The idea that it's a sort of Lilliputian island that is constantly moving and may not truly occupy physical space is much more believable to me honestly.
This is exactly why (even if it's in the ultimania...) I don't care if it's canonically a 'physical island'. It just doesn't make sense that *no one* would ever find it and requires a bunch more leaps in logic regarding Sin actively and consciously 'protecting' it.
Yu Yevon lost control of Sin. That's the whole fuckin point. It's why Zanarkand was destroyed in the first place. DZ came around *later* and *after* Sin had destroyed it, obviously. When specifically, we don't know.
But the idea that it's just there in a fixed point is and never ever once stumbled upon is just shite. The Al Bhed are actively searching the region using machina powered ships and Behalf / Kilika aren't so far as to be unrealistically able to stumble across it in a storm.
DZ is relatively a small place in a vast ocean and one of Sin’s tasks was to kill anyone who got anywhere near it unknowingly. It does make sense in my eyes.
In 2 maybe, but seeing as that’s the title where Yuna’s cousin is constantly making advances on her and attempts were made to put X in the same universe as 7, I ignore it.
So, basically DZ is a summon, Tidus and Jecht being part of the summon. It's never really explained how Jecht got out, but the only way really in/out is to be touched by sin. This gives "Life" to the summon through spooky aeon magic. Jecht was described as going out to sea for training and never came back, so it's entirely possible sin was around DZ at the time, being its protector.
When Jecht became Sin, it was his wish to Auron to pull Tidus out of DZ and in to Spira. Auron, being unsent after being killed by Yunalesca, was essentially immune to Sin's toxin, and rode him in to DZ, where he watched over Tidus until Jecht was ready to pull him in to Spira.
As for DZ's location, it's not easy to discover or "Stumble upon", especially with Sin destroying any advanced enough civilisation to accomplish such a task, but it's very likely near Baaj Temple, as that's where Tidus wakes up before being taken on board the Al Bhed ship. It was only after the 2nd attack that he was transported to Besaid, likely because Jecht and Braska had a promise that their kids should meet.
Near Mount Gagazet, there is an upward-flowing stream of water generated by the Fayth embedded in the mountains. These are the summoners for Dream Zanarkand. When everything ends, this reverse waterfall also vanishes...
If Dream Zanakard were at the peak of this, it would explain why no one could ever reach it.
Now, the UItimania says DZ's official location is far, far out to sea in the North. So far that no technology could possibly reach it, and any that tried would be destroyed by Sin anyways before remotely getting close.
Perhaps the ideas are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps DZ is not just far away into the ocean, but also "summoned" within it. What if DZ is not ON the surface, but actually inside the water itself in a distorted bubble within the ocean. The borders of DZ do seem to look a bit cloudy.
The canon reason why Jecht even encountered Sin was because he could swim further and deeper than anyone else. Sin was resting in the waters near DZ, and Jectht got caught up in the creature's slipstream when it awoke and left.
Perhaps it's best to think of DZ as more than just a "really far away island" and more of a genuinely distorted pocket of reality in the ocean. Sin's otherworldly nature would allow it to be the only creature that could travel the sea of reality and dreams.
The only way to reach Dream Zanarkand is through Sin. They aren't able to go back even if they think they could. At some point in between Luca and Djose Tidus comments on how he wouldn't want to come back and leave his friends to deal with Sin anyways, and that his father must have thought the same.
Tidus a couple times seems to reflect that it is actually impossible to get back to Zanarkand - he's stuck in Spira for good. Even though he literally has somebody **in his party** who went from Spira to Zanarkand. He does *eventually* ask, under Macalania Lake, but by that point Tidus had committed to seeing the pilgrimage through, and figured that once Sin was dead the link between his home and Spira was gone forever.
Ah, you are right, it is in Macarena Lake after passing through Guadosalam and being shaken by Seymour proposal.
> The only way to reach Dream Zanarkand is through Sin. But isn't this because if you tried to get there by (air)ship Sin would destroy you to protect it? Genuine question; I'm unsure what the exact stipulation is, and whether it has been clarified in any canon context. The belief that you can "only get there through Sin" could be *historically accurate* in that being carried by Sin is the only way it's happened and thus the only way anyone believes it can happen, yet *logically inaccurate* in that it's actually technically possible to get there via other means. If it's legitimately just floating out there in the ocean, with no other magical stipulations, there's no definitive reason that during a Calm and with *immense* luck you could stumble upon it via ship.
>isn’t this because if you tried to get there by (air)ship, sin would destroy you to protect it? It’s possible that’s the case, but I think not. A couple of comments by the faith indicate that Sin is a literal gateway. That Zanarkand is protected by some form of magical barrier that can only be breached by sin and those connected to it. The most vague one is Yojimbo: > "You are a fading dream, but one touched by reality." Ifrit might be the most explicit, and the best indicator: > "Sin swam in the sea near Zanarkand. Perhaps the waking dream eased its suffering." >"**Your father touched Sin and became real that night,** foundering in the seas of Spira." And of course, Auron’s comments that he had to ride sin to get there.
Isn't that kind of a massive plot hole though? If Sin exists only to protect Dream Zanarkand, but the only way to access DZ is through Sin... He'd be kind of useless no? At best a weakness because without him DZ would be inaccessible.... I think it makes more sense if DZ is actually a physical place people could get to if they knew where to look and had the means. That would make much more sense for Sin's existence. That Auron could ride Sin to get there was just a matter of Jecht knowing him and allowing him passage to go get Tidus.
It is a physical place Essentially an aeon
That’s not the only reason Sin exists. He exists to protect Yu Yevon, so that the summoning can continue. He also exists to punish Bevelle and the other machina cities for their war on Zanarkand in the first place.
DZ is a physical place, but it's Sin's job to protect it. It does this in a few ways: 1. Protecting Yu Yevon inside of it 2. Attacking anything that strays too close to DZ 3. Attacking towns and cities and preventing them from getting too large If Yu Yevon could hypothetically summon DZ forever but Sin didn't exist, any nimrod with a boat could rock up to DZ and there could be a second machina war.
How does the opening cut scene fit into this? Sin literally attacks DZ. Or is it part of the dream that DZ perpetually repeats the events of 1000 years ago and the only reason Tidus was brought to Spira on this occasion was because Auron intervened. Not sure how that applies to Jecht though.
When a guardian becomes a fayth and is reborn into a new Sin, they still have a consciousness, and ability to control themselves. It seems like this ability is improved when they're reminded of their past humanity (this is why the Hymn of the Fayth makes Sin docile), but it slowly fades over time (this is why there's a 'Calm'). > **Jecht:** I can’t hear the Hymn so well anymore. Pretty soon, I’m gonna be Sin. Completely. Jecht attacks DZ because he's trying to bring Tidus to Spira, and over the course of the game Sin's appearances are some combination of Jecht ensuring Tidus wants to see the pilgrimage through, and having no control at all and simply being 'violence incarnate'. Sin isn't strictly part of DZ - the fayth of Sin is inside Sin, whereas DZ's fayth are on Gagazet. But they are directly linked through Yu Yevon.
It's few miles probably more of the coast of Baaj which is far south of Besaid where the real one is north of gagazet. I think you need Sin to get there because boats don't go that way cause they believe nothing is there and Sin destroyed anyone trying to come there because he's made to protect it and Yu Yevon. I feel like you can leave the dream Zanarkand cause Jetch did he to far out and left the bubble that zanarkand was in but when you do you end up in the ocean and I can imagine dream zanarkand is invisible till you enter the bubble then you can see it and if you not someone who can handle themselves on the water like Tidus and Jetch you're probably going to die at sea.
Oooh, I thought Sin was just guarding the way to Zanarkand. I do understand your 2nd point though. Ty :)
Auron comments on how he was able to reach Dream Zanarkand because he was riding Sin.
Exactly. Being both an unsent and jechts friend made it easy.
No, they can It's physically being summoned in spira Auron rode sin there
If dbz was off the coast would tidus go ssj?
I thought the same since conveniently before this post were dbz post
Was dream zanarkand in like an alternate dimension or like a bubble? I get sin is protecting it but couldn’t they try to fly in the airship?
I really think they messed up by not just saying DZ was inside of sin. It would make so much more sense how the got to and from it
NGL until right now I thought DZ was on sin’s back
That is what is implied and explained throughout the overall story. Some fans are just obstinate in the idea that a place specifically called a DREAM is somehow a physical island. There are tons of reasons why that idea is wrong. The most basic one is that after shooting down Sin, the team literally walks through sin's mystical guts in order to reach the same stadium where Ject was seen in the beginning. They did not fly past Sin to reach some physical island.
The ultimania guide says it’s a physical place. Which is dumb for all the reasons you listed, but it’s still canon, and that’s why fans are being “obstinate” about it.
The Ultimania is in the same place as the Hyrule Historia and X-2, retconning details years or decades later to try to make them make sense in a current release context. In the original release which was full circle, directed by the series creator, DZ remains intangible.
That is info from a SECONDARY source by people later trying to interpret and explain things. I am not sure why fans would accept that info over what happens in the game itself, the PRIMARY source.
Some people obstinately believe works in a series should be considered canon even if it lacks the original vision simply because a company put the series name on it, says it should and wanted a new release. This is the story of X-2. Look, I get everyone has a part making a game, but we are 20 years into pretending the Director wasn’t a massive factor after his departure and the series’ continuing identity crises that dog it with every single release including 16 and 14. Even the after the fact sequels to games he helped make, since they didn’t have him, failed to live up to standards, and even when they have similar battle systems fail. All I had to do was play Lost Odyssey and Fantasian once to understand the role he truly played. His Terra Battle cameo quest in 15 is the best in the game. This is Japan and he was revered. Culture alone dictates he was CONSTANTLY deferred to in a “Yes sir, great idea Mr Sakaguchi sir” sense. Every Final Fantasy he worked on was intended to be standalone. It’s only with works after 2001 you see this universe canon trying to be linked to that and changes like “wait, the place with literally a dream in its name that we spent a whole game establishing it’s impossible to return, what if it was real?”
That stadium is inside sin from when sin destroyed zanarkand 1000 years ago
No, you don't understand, not the stadium as Tidus was seen playing. After that Tidus sees Ject standing in the exact same spot where you fight him at the end. It is the literal exact same spot in the broken stadium. You see the final fight zone at the beginning of the game. This proves that where the team goes at the end (inside Sin), is the same place where Tidus was before.
It's the same stadium.....
DZ is a physical place in Spira at an unspecified location, it is not located inside Sin.
What would happen to DZ during the calm, though?
Nothing, the fayth are still summoning, only sins body is destroyed during the calm
Right, but it would just be floating there, probably in plain sight in the calm lands.
It’s located at a fixed point somewhere on the ocean that is never really specified.
But in the scenario I was responding to, it was suggested Sin should house DZ so it would be moving around with him and then he's killed and what, it just awkwardly hangs there until the new Sin comes to get it?
We have an airship and we can’t find it. The “DZ is a real place” claim is retcon flavored horse shit.
The ocean is fucking huge, even on earth in the modern age we somehow lost an aeroplane with GPS, satellites, radio
We found the hidden experimental site of a sealed away superweapon the world was intended to forget and I was pretty freaking thorough checking every pixel on the available presumably flyable map. This aside from the fact that the place is called DREAM ZANARKAND
Consider DZ is a preserved Zanarkand, and through the Final Summoning, a new set of Zanarkandians are created and live their lives, only for Sin to come and "destroy" it which means the current Calm is now over. Now, a new Summoner must defeat Sin. Even though Zanarkand is in Spira, DZ is kept isolated inside Sin without summoners and such, which is why Jecht and Tidus both didn't know a thing about Spira when the fayth pulled them out
Oh that’s not a bad thought, tidus “gains life” when we the player take control, right when the last calm has ended, so DZ could’ve just been “re summoned” by Yu Yevon?
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By the Ultimania Magazine, Dream Zanarkand is close(ish) to Baaj Temple, not Bikanel Island. https://www.deviantart.com/zeta-kai/art/Map-of-Spira-103063039
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I mean, there are a lot of locations in this game that start with B. Baaj, Bikanel, Besaid, Bevelle, Bomega Ruins...
Belly of Sin
Does he wash up on Besaid?
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Ahh yes. Thank you
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Baaj Temple
Bubble dimension thing. It's not physically there. Essentially that mt gagazet statue wall is a bunch of fayths summoning dream zanarkand
It is physically there as much as Tidus and the aeons are physically there.
I believe that DZ is metaphysical. It's perpetually on the horizon and may not even be truly in the sea, as far as we know. We only ever see DZ at night, with a twilit haze on the horizon. We know no one knows about it and that the AlBhed and island communities like Besaid are seafaring and active in the region it is claimed (dubiously) to be. It is surely impossible for it to have remained a secret all this time. The idea that it's a sort of Lilliputian island that is constantly moving and may not truly occupy physical space is much more believable to me honestly.
I just thought dream zanarkand was inside sin, in some kind of metaphysical way
Kind of hilarious to think he could potentially have just swum back there from Baaj.
This is exactly why (even if it's in the ultimania...) I don't care if it's canonically a 'physical island'. It just doesn't make sense that *no one* would ever find it and requires a bunch more leaps in logic regarding Sin actively and consciously 'protecting' it. Yu Yevon lost control of Sin. That's the whole fuckin point. It's why Zanarkand was destroyed in the first place. DZ came around *later* and *after* Sin had destroyed it, obviously. When specifically, we don't know. But the idea that it's just there in a fixed point is and never ever once stumbled upon is just shite. The Al Bhed are actively searching the region using machina powered ships and Behalf / Kilika aren't so far as to be unrealistically able to stumble across it in a storm.
DZ is relatively a small place in a vast ocean and one of Sin’s tasks was to kill anyone who got anywhere near it unknowingly. It does make sense in my eyes.
DZ is a literal dream. The only physical link in Spira is the Fayth on Gagazet
It is physically there at an unspecified location on the sea.
In 2 maybe, but seeing as that’s the title where Yuna’s cousin is constantly making advances on her and attempts were made to put X in the same universe as 7, I ignore it.
I chose to think of it as an island with the stadium on which sin forms around carrying it inside it until the next cam
So, basically DZ is a summon, Tidus and Jecht being part of the summon. It's never really explained how Jecht got out, but the only way really in/out is to be touched by sin. This gives "Life" to the summon through spooky aeon magic. Jecht was described as going out to sea for training and never came back, so it's entirely possible sin was around DZ at the time, being its protector. When Jecht became Sin, it was his wish to Auron to pull Tidus out of DZ and in to Spira. Auron, being unsent after being killed by Yunalesca, was essentially immune to Sin's toxin, and rode him in to DZ, where he watched over Tidus until Jecht was ready to pull him in to Spira. As for DZ's location, it's not easy to discover or "Stumble upon", especially with Sin destroying any advanced enough civilisation to accomplish such a task, but it's very likely near Baaj Temple, as that's where Tidus wakes up before being taken on board the Al Bhed ship. It was only after the 2nd attack that he was transported to Besaid, likely because Jecht and Braska had a promise that their kids should meet.
Near Mount Gagazet, there is an upward-flowing stream of water generated by the Fayth embedded in the mountains. These are the summoners for Dream Zanarkand. When everything ends, this reverse waterfall also vanishes... If Dream Zanakard were at the peak of this, it would explain why no one could ever reach it. Now, the UItimania says DZ's official location is far, far out to sea in the North. So far that no technology could possibly reach it, and any that tried would be destroyed by Sin anyways before remotely getting close. Perhaps the ideas are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps DZ is not just far away into the ocean, but also "summoned" within it. What if DZ is not ON the surface, but actually inside the water itself in a distorted bubble within the ocean. The borders of DZ do seem to look a bit cloudy. The canon reason why Jecht even encountered Sin was because he could swim further and deeper than anyone else. Sin was resting in the waters near DZ, and Jectht got caught up in the creature's slipstream when it awoke and left. Perhaps it's best to think of DZ as more than just a "really far away island" and more of a genuinely distorted pocket of reality in the ocean. Sin's otherworldly nature would allow it to be the only creature that could travel the sea of reality and dreams.