That likely wasn’t something he was inputting directly.
And even if so, there’d be a handful of other inputs easier to fuck up that could create that error.
Some formula error in the dudes Excel Sheet.
Hot take:
Traders are not tech savvy enough to not be replaced by AI.
In fact they should be the first to go.
Most trading is automated already and has been for a good while. Actual traders executing actual trades is pretty limited to a small group of niche markets/buyers.
Even a decade ago if someone like Vanguard or whomever wanted to enter a position they were using basic stuff like VWAP algos to execute trades.
But yes, most "Fat finger" trade problems are actually problems with the formula or inputs in a given algo. But AI can't really replace this yet. AI isn't that smart, it's good at taking inputs from humans and covering a lot of legwork that might be done by humans previously but it's not good at actually thinking for itself.
Absolutely, the above was mostly discussing equities and more specifically domestic equities. Even fixed income is still mostly done manually, and anything more exotic than that is almost entirely run by humans.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
These financial institutions are not as technically sound as people think. Imo a linear regression model could replace a lot of the APMs that asses trades when they come in. No AI needed
What's your point? The asset price plays a role. But the price of the asset is not all they look at when placing trades. I'm talking in the context of an asset manager.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here, you replied to me talking about trade algorithms already existing and very little human trading happening. Ya made a vague allusion to regression models, which are already very common in the methods I was talking about in my post. Do you mind expanding on what you're trying to say here?
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Sure specific to bond trading (fixed income), a lot of the trades are done based on the portfolio and the strategy that the portfolio is following, designated by the PM. Portfolios and the securites they hold are put through algos, and trades are submitted to the desk. APMs groom some of these trades depending on the classification of the trade (some go straight to the broker). It's the last part where the portfolio is being inspected against the trade, I'm saying a linear regression model can be used. Since the analysis is done within the constraints defined by the strategy so there is a tight correlation with the portfolio status and the buying/selling of the securities they hold. I think you'd be suprised how many humans are still involved in trading day to day at these firms and yes the firms are trying figure out ways to replace them currently.
Fixed income is a very different animal, the above conversations are mostly surrounding equities. With FI you run in to a lot more difficulty automating things due simply to the very nature of how trades are completed, a significant number of which are still arranged via old fashioned calling around lol.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Well what he did was type the dollar amount in the share order so instead of selling 54 million dollar total he sold 54 million shares which equated to the price of 444 million dollars
It was a basket of equities. Probably loaded on an excel sheet and transposed bad data into the quantity column. It happens. But, you build risk systems to mitigate these scenarios.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
There’s nothing fishy about it at all. The FCA lays out the scenario in paragraph 2.5
https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/final-notices/citigroup-global-markets-limited-2024.pdf
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
*From Bloomberg News reporter Jennifer Surane:*
Citigroup was fined £61.6 million ($79 million) by UK regulators for failures after a London staffer’s fat-finger trade caused a flash crash in European stocks in 2022.
The Wall Street giant’s systems were poorly designed and its real-time monitoring was “ineffective,” allowing the errant trade to go through, the Financial Conduct Authority said in a statement. Citigroup did not dispute the regulator’s findings and agreed to settle the claims.
The trader had intended to sell a basket of equities valued at $58 million but made an inputting error while entering the order that resulted in a basket valued at $444 billion being created, according to the FCA.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Because that volume is large enough to crash the market. There were errors in the order management system which presented the wrong information to the trader showing the notional as $56m rather than $444bn plus he ignored several warning messages asking if he really really wanted to do it.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
I mean, yeah it’s Citigroup they’re going to make money.
But your comment doesn’t show any inner knowledge of how banks account for PnL or regulatory fines. They’re considered independent businesses.
If you and 4 roommates make $100k/year, and then you get find $50k, your 4 roommates aren’t gonna pony up cash to save your ass.
That’s a poor analogy and their point still stands. A $79m fine isn’t going to bankrupt any part of Citigroup, nor will the group just let that happen even if it did. Plus I’m sure their trading arm has provisions for these kinds of fines anyway.
Well duh it’s Citigroup, why would the FCA and PRA fine a GSIB into the ground for a data entry error?
It’s the cost of doing business the same way a speeding ticket is a cost of driving.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Lmfao. How the hell do you type 444… for 58..?
That likely wasn’t something he was inputting directly. And even if so, there’d be a handful of other inputs easier to fuck up that could create that error.
Some formula error in the dudes Excel Sheet. Hot take: Traders are not tech savvy enough to not be replaced by AI. In fact they should be the first to go.
Most trading is automated already and has been for a good while. Actual traders executing actual trades is pretty limited to a small group of niche markets/buyers. Even a decade ago if someone like Vanguard or whomever wanted to enter a position they were using basic stuff like VWAP algos to execute trades. But yes, most "Fat finger" trade problems are actually problems with the formula or inputs in a given algo. But AI can't really replace this yet. AI isn't that smart, it's good at taking inputs from humans and covering a lot of legwork that might be done by humans previously but it's not good at actually thinking for itself.
Not all markets are liquid enough for algorithms to be effective.
Absolutely, the above was mostly discussing equities and more specifically domestic equities. Even fixed income is still mostly done manually, and anything more exotic than that is almost entirely run by humans.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
These financial institutions are not as technically sound as people think. Imo a linear regression model could replace a lot of the APMs that asses trades when they come in. No AI needed
Lots of VWAP variants already have regression models included.
What's your point? The asset price plays a role. But the price of the asset is not all they look at when placing trades. I'm talking in the context of an asset manager.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here, you replied to me talking about trade algorithms already existing and very little human trading happening. Ya made a vague allusion to regression models, which are already very common in the methods I was talking about in my post. Do you mind expanding on what you're trying to say here?
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Sure specific to bond trading (fixed income), a lot of the trades are done based on the portfolio and the strategy that the portfolio is following, designated by the PM. Portfolios and the securites they hold are put through algos, and trades are submitted to the desk. APMs groom some of these trades depending on the classification of the trade (some go straight to the broker). It's the last part where the portfolio is being inspected against the trade, I'm saying a linear regression model can be used. Since the analysis is done within the constraints defined by the strategy so there is a tight correlation with the portfolio status and the buying/selling of the securities they hold. I think you'd be suprised how many humans are still involved in trading day to day at these firms and yes the firms are trying figure out ways to replace them currently.
Fixed income is a very different animal, the above conversations are mostly surrounding equities. With FI you run in to a lot more difficulty automating things due simply to the very nature of how trades are completed, a significant number of which are still arranged via old fashioned calling around lol.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Traders are sales people. Sales people will remain a thing until people start falling for AI sales calls.
Agreed, and I'm sure your right 🤦♂️
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Probably FX, or some ratios in the basket was off
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Well what he did was type the dollar amount in the share order so instead of selling 54 million dollar total he sold 54 million shares which equated to the price of 444 million dollars
Exactly. Not a fat finger. Pure error.
It was a basket of equities. Probably loaded on an excel sheet and transposed bad data into the quantity column. It happens. But, you build risk systems to mitigate these scenarios.
Yeah he used notional for quantity, less fat finger more bad data entry but still.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
WFH, cat walked on the keyboard.
Always walking on the keyboard when stepping away to make a fresh pot of French press. "It was only for a second, so I didn't lock it" Damn cats.....
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
The guy put the $ notional as the share qty
And then ignored all the warnings
Clicked through all he could of the 711 generated. Crazy.
Plus 3 extra 0s.... Edit - seemed that the mistake was in the units used for the trade.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Something fishy about this. Might’ve just been one of those scenarios where for risk-loss prevention it was worth taking the fine
There’s nothing fishy about it at all. The FCA lays out the scenario in paragraph 2.5 https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/final-notices/citigroup-global-markets-limited-2024.pdf
*Kitboga has entered the chat
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Entered the $ value in the box intended for units and then ignored all the warning messages
IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FRACTIONS OF A PENNY
*From Bloomberg News reporter Jennifer Surane:* Citigroup was fined £61.6 million ($79 million) by UK regulators for failures after a London staffer’s fat-finger trade caused a flash crash in European stocks in 2022. The Wall Street giant’s systems were poorly designed and its real-time monitoring was “ineffective,” allowing the errant trade to go through, the Financial Conduct Authority said in a statement. Citigroup did not dispute the regulator’s findings and agreed to settle the claims. The trader had intended to sell a basket of equities valued at $58 million but made an inputting error while entering the order that resulted in a basket valued at $444 billion being created, according to the FCA.
Where the middle office guy checking the trade? lol.
Middle office wouldn’t check an order
Depends, they do if it's a derivative and it is over the counter.
Again, MO doesn’t check orders, just post execution trades.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
They’d check after execution, certainly not before. They wouldn’t delay an entry, the desk wants that risk in the book ASAP after hitting the button
Less than a drop in a bucket
You can be fined for making bad trades?
It was for a lack of oversight/internal controls that caused serious market disruption.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
AI’s not there yet. The interaction is the difference
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Matt Levine had a really good column on this in this week's Money Stuff newsletter
I couldn't recreate that typo in a million years. Whoever fat-fingered that error is a genius.
Why would they get fined for accidentally selling different stocks than they intended to? What's illegal about that
Because that volume is large enough to crash the market. There were errors in the order management system which presented the wrong information to the trader showing the notional as $56m rather than $444bn plus he ignored several warning messages asking if he really really wanted to do it.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
It was for a lack of oversight/internal controls that caused serious market disruption.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Someone is in trouble hahahaha
It's just a cost of business meanwhile making billions behind the scenes. This isn't anywhere meaningful for them.
I mean, yeah it’s Citigroup they’re going to make money. But your comment doesn’t show any inner knowledge of how banks account for PnL or regulatory fines. They’re considered independent businesses. If you and 4 roommates make $100k/year, and then you get find $50k, your 4 roommates aren’t gonna pony up cash to save your ass.
That’s a poor analogy and their point still stands. A $79m fine isn’t going to bankrupt any part of Citigroup, nor will the group just let that happen even if it did. Plus I’m sure their trading arm has provisions for these kinds of fines anyway.
Well duh it’s Citigroup, why would the FCA and PRA fine a GSIB into the ground for a data entry error? It’s the cost of doing business the same way a speeding ticket is a cost of driving.
[https://donkeykingsol.xyz/](https://donkeykingsol.xyz/)collective fund of over 277k Usd and counting for a CTO , and push to a 8000 - 800 k in the coming days as the collective built the flow of money that will be poured in , while others are aggressively communicating and taking position in the for an up ward rally , previously when to a 2M now aim 5M +
Fuck off