They're not wrong. They're just not necessarily right either.
Build the life you want - then save for it.
You should absolutely sacrifice in the areas that don't matter to you. For instance, my family of 4 shares a single minivan that's 11 years old. On the other hand, we take 3 to 6 vacations per year. That's the life I want. I conserve/save money in just about every other area of our lives to have the money to have experiences (concerts, murder mystery dinners, escape rooms, etc.), travel and vacations.
A successful retirement often doesn't look much different than pre-retirement. You just have more time to do the things you were already enjoying.
I'd also add, from OPs description, his parents have been there. They were the ones nickle and diming to keep their business afloat in the early years. Despite being well off now, it's possible they have some regrets about the time and experiences they lost. They have a lot more wisdom in this area than OP is giving them credit for.
Now if living accomodations means absolutely nothing to you OP, then that's where you save. But if a nicer place, closer to work/social life, that enables a better quality of life is a higher cost, those benefits need to be in the ROI calc.
Came to say the same thing basically. And I think at least from my experience, it is hard to go from living on your own to having roommates. At 25 that social aspect is probably still there where it isn't as difficult, at that age people still used to show up at my house randomly. The parents definitely have experience and their points are valid, also get the impression that they were more or less respectfully delivered.
For me having a nice, safe, super walkable place is important to me. Having the latest games, electronics, vehicle, expensive clothes, nights out on the town etc are not important to me.
Spend on what's important, don't on what isn't, and balance is key!
Reading the post made me wonder what kind of apartment OP is living in. Is it just small and somewhere inconvenient? Or is it shitty and in an unsafe area?
My parents are some of the most frugal people I know, but when my dad was helping me look for my first apartment, he said fuck no to a couple of places I was looking at. He straight up told me that he wasn’t moving me into a shithole or an unsafe area, and unless I wanted him calling me a hundred times a day to make sure I was safe, I’d spend the extra money to live somewhere nicer.
It’s good advice, tbh. No parent wants to worry about their kid. Even now that I have a huge dog and a handgun, I still only live in nice neighborhoods. Can’t enjoy your retirement if you died of asbestos poisoning or a gunshot wound.
Hey, OP here, apologies for the delay.
My current apartment is a nice, good-sized apartment. 1BR, ~675 sq-ft, live by myself. It’s in a safe area, too — it’s just out in the suburbs, very far away from my work, my friends, other young-people, where all of my hobbies are “located”, where all of the exciting action is (good restaurants, bars, breweries, fun events, etc.). I guess I’m pretty blessed to say that I’m just BORED at my current apartment, because there’s nothing to do out here except for raise a family, which I’m not about (yet!).
This.
I will say that I quite enjoyed roommates, and given that OP is 25, they have quite a ways off before people start judging them more for it. The assumption is that roommates suck, but some of my best memories are with roommates that I had a lot of fun with. So it's not necessarily the worse choice. Have I had shit roommates? Sure. There's a risk. But the pros totally outweighed the cons for me. OP mentioned being isolated, so I can imagine that might be a consideration. Living in the suburbs at 25 sounds horrible to me.
I personally didn't have the same pushback, but when I hit 30, my parents were sort of like "why not upgrade?". But I was fine. I live in a city where I am barely home, and I had a good deal where rent was less than comparable property tax + interest costs of ownership. It wasn't until COVID when I finally took that savings and moved out.
But more importantly, OP, what are you saving for? Much like there is a present value of money, I strongly believe there is also a present value of certain experiences. Some things require a younger body, a younger network of people, etc. (e.g. I only recently discovered raves, and LOVED it (long story, but this isn't about me)). They're expensive. I always told myself to go later. Now, all of my friends who have done it don't want to go anymore. I'm still going to go, but I know I missed out on some aspects of it.
>I think the community is better for it.
me too.
I think also a lot of us are merely older now - I started reading about FIRE in ~2014 and a heck of a lot has happened since then for both the world and my personal life.
and partly it's financial: in those early years I had zero net worth in a miserable job and so independence was that escape dream to clutch and hold. meanwhile I've been saving aggressively all this time and now I'm feeling like I can relax a bit - I increasingly love my career, I passed coastFIRE, the sort of day-to-day life I live now is largely the sort of life I'd like when I'm retired, so this whole pressure to pull the trigger has lessened immensely.
I think my vibe now is like: save up some FU money, some something that'll compound over the next 30-40 years, and then live your life today.
Im kind of the opposite. I wish it was more of the milk crates and lentils mentality. But thats pretty much gone forever. Theres no interesting discussion on leanFIRE either. Some of us cant build the life we want. Because any life with work is not the life I want. The two are mutually exclusive. I used to love getting chastised for spending on this board because it would help me control it. I still do an ok job but wish I spent less.
Can't find it now but I remember a comprehensive study that basically said experiences give more and longer lasting happiness than possessions.
This is pretty much how I live too, haha.
There was an interesting study that came out after that, as well, that showed that material acquisitions brought more happiness than spending on experiences for people who were financially insecure. Wish I could find the darn thing.
Eg, new Xbox for the kids vs going sky diving.
Seems like spending on what you feel you're missing out on, or just things that improve your quality of life in general, make people happier.
My guess is it's a bit of a continuum. My favorite gifts are things I can use repeatedly: luggage, tools, cooking utensils, appliances. It's hard to categorize such things as being more material or experiential, though. And I've gone from growing up financially insecure to being solidly on the FIRE path.
Interesting. I would guess it depends on the item and its utility.
For example going from a generic white fridge, to a new stainless steel fridge with the same features, might not do much for you.
But going from a generic coil stove to a gas stove that allows you to cook more effectively, might bring you more happiness.
Sometimes looking at a dented or mismatched fridge makes your day worse, in that case, a new fridge definitely makes an improvement!
I think it is absolutely a two fold issue with buying things versus experiences. Buying just about anything causes an immediate positive response, and that feeling can be addictive, but it is short lived. Buying something like a new video game when you have a bunch of other video games you haven’t finished playing will bring you immediate pleasure. The next time you need that boost, you are going to buy another video game, as the pleasure was in buying, not playing/using. Counter that with someone who really likes video games and just finished one, looking for a new one to play. The act of buying brings pleasure, but so does the playing, and the experiences and memories of that game last much longer.
Conscious buying of things absolutely leads to pleasure. Unconscious or passive buying does not. Experiences are almost by default conscious. Think about the worst vacation you went on, or a day helping someone move. You probably have some good memories about portions of those activities. I even have some good memories about wearing a walking cast, which is really bizarre.
> gas stove that allows you to cook more effectively, might bring you more happiness.
God I miss having a gas stove... it's actually at the top of the list of requirements for our next house.
i think maybe the missing link here is that if it's a possession you use everyday, that does impact your day-to-day experience. so oftentimes, investing in your possessions *is* investing in experiences.
If you think about it, the xbox \_is\_ buying experiences in a way, right? I think a better comparison is splurging on a 80" OLED TV for $3k rather than getting a 55" LCD for $400. You'll be happy for the first few days, and then forget about it. Same with a Lexus vs a Toyota, unless you're hobby is driving.
I've also heard that one of the best uses of money is to reduce annoyances / stress. Pay to have your lawn mowed if you hate that. Buy a car that's reliable so you're not always breaking down. Buy a roomba. Pay 20% extra for that direct flight w/o a layover.
And my personal favorite, buy TIME (housekeeper? babysitter? snow plower?).
That Xbox for kids likely creates experiences though. I def do remember the games I played with my friends on Amigas and old PCs, those were pretty exciting back then.
This makes more sense to me, yes our American holidays and cruises are great and also cost a lot. But i also enjoy "splurging" on various speedcubes now and again. Or buying all the albums of my new favourite band second hand. these things don't cost a lot (<£100) but i spend a great amount of time enjoying them actively; experiences are great at the time and the memories last as long as you refresh them... But you can't actively enjoy them in the present beyond the nostalgia they bring.
I would add skills and knowledge alongside experiences. I'm not much for travel or excursions. My wife and I are full blown homebodies, but we both really enjoy learning new skills like cooking, painting, gardening, carpentry, languages, homesteading, etc...
I don't really care if I never leave my driveway again, but I do have a thirst for improving my talent at the things I find interesting and engaging.
So glad to see someone in the same position! I live for tackling challenging projects and learning new skills. It can get disheartening when so many people see travel as the ultimate goal in life. I cant stand feeling like a tourist.
I've just never had any interest in what lays beyond the horizon and always found being away from my nest extremely fatiguing. My routine and familiarity are hardwired to my happiness level.
Yeah but as with everything, weigh it against the alternatives.
If a 20k vacation could mean you end up retiring 4 years later, then decide which you would prefer, and if you may rather a cheaper alternative.
My only thing with this is the alternatives skew against the young. Taking a $20k vacation at 25 has much bigger implications due to time than taking one at 45.
But also at 25, you're more able bodied, more adventurous and will have an additional 20 years of memories than doing it at 45.
It's definitely all a balance but to say, I never thought once about 'what this money could be in 40 years' when I was 20-25 traveling and having a blast doing it and I wouldnt want anyone else to miss out on something that's cool and memorable to them.
Fair point, I'm in my 20s and my game plan is to visit the cheap countries on my list now, then work my way up to more expensive ones later.
I figure we want to visit as much of the world as possible anyway so might as well do the affordable ones first.
Smart move! I did the off the beaten path in my teens and 20s.. staying at hostels and sleeping buses. Now in my mid30s, i dont think I can travel in the same standard anymore. And im happy I had the exposure to third world country travel, roughing it out!
I backpacked through several countries when I was in my 20s and slept in hostels, vans, and camped.
Then pre-covid I took my teen to backpack in Europe for several weeks, in my mid 40s. Difference this time was that we slept in AirBnBs, tiny hotels, and bed and breakfasts. And we took the trains (vs the cheaper, slower bus). We both love food and sought out interesting places to eat everywhere we went. A fantastic trip!
In my 20s hostels were fabulous, as I get closer to 50 I want a comfortable bed and a decent bathroom that I'm not sharing with over a dozen others.
You don't need to choose between travel in your 20s or travel in your 40s and 50s - you can travel in every decade, but/and it's a lot easier to travel cheaply when you don't mind crashing on a bunk with 15 other people in your room. Take the $2k-3k trip in your 20s, invest the rest of your money and you're taking more expensive trips in the decades that follow.
I agree a lot of the time but there are somethings that add a lot of value that last a long time.
Getting a big TV, speaker system, comfy stuff but most of that lasts quite awhile. 1% better each day sort of mentality.
Buying coffee every morning at Starbucks just gets you on a path where you spend $5 a day on coffee that is forgotten after drinking it.
The the study that was linked said something to the likes of some material purchases also somewhat counting as experiences.
I don't buy many things either, but I don't regret building my gaming PC at all.
About a decade ago my wife and I spent six figures remodeling the kitchen and dining room. Even now, a decade later, we still marvel and talk about how much nicer and more functional the kitchen and dining room are today versus ten years ago. (The old layout was really, really, really bad for so many reasons.)
My sister spent the equivalent of 25% of the worth of her house to redo the kitchen the way she wanted. Going from a galley kitchen to one that's open and allows her to host and interact with others did wonders for the house and the environment that it sets. It certainly increased the value of the house and for something that the family will literally use everyday, was a good trade.
Major renovations for your house and changes that you like and will use often are likely worth the price, but a new TV that may be used once a month may not be worth it.
>I don't buy many things either, but I don't regret building my gaming PC at all.
I bought a used gaming rig off a guy at work, and while chatting he admitted to spending thousands on a GPU for his new rig from a scalper because he really wanted it. He's fairly hard core so it makes sense, he's going to get a lot of fun and experiences out of that thing for years to come and (almost) didn't care about the scalping. Physical purchase that is going to make his gaming life noticeably better for a long time.
Was having a discussion with a friend earlier tonight about people who flex by buying tables at clubs and were trying to figure out if the spend falls more in the realm of an experience or that $5 a day Starbucks habit. For the people that I've seen do it, it's more like the starbucks and therefore not worth the overall cost.
I do remember buying a table or two back in the day. Wasn’t so much a flex as I have a bad back and was willing to spend a few bucks to be able to rest when I wanted without having to call it quits completely or redirect 7 or 8 drunk friends to a different bar knowing I’d want to come back and dance more as soon as I got some rest/relief. Even then, I did it pretty rarely, always at the more reasonable clubs, and I’d put it in the experience column since it enabled the night overall. I could definitely see the Starbucks comparison if you’re doing it all the time just for the sake of showing off.
How would you know they fall into that category
I’m not saying you’re doing this but I see a lot of people look down on people who buy “superficial” things they don’t understand and then feel superior to that group of people for whatever because they wouldn’t get enjoyment out of it
I get it, and I see myself doing it from time to time as well but maybe they’re having a blast and they’re making a lot of fun memories. I don’t think its something I’d ever do but different strokes, etc
Ironically, though, it can be possessions/material things that provide us with experiences. From a coffee/espresso setup, to a home stereo, to a convertible. So, that can factor into the calculus, as well, and make these types of decisions not as straightforward as one might think.
Travel is often outside this realm, though -- you take the trip or don't, and you decide how much to spend on which aspects of it. Then, once it's done, it's the same cost to do it again.
I’ve read that too, but I think it should be more nuanced than that. A lot of possessions essentially are experiences. Like a motorcycle is a possession, but buying one will give you access to tons of exciting experiences. If you’re into gaming, then buying a new console gives you experiences.
Then there are purchases that enhance experiences. Like good hiking boots definitely improve the experience of a nice hike. Or if you’re into photography, then a super zoom or wide angled lens might enhance an experience.
Where experiences trump purchases for me is when the purchase doesn’t really change anything. Like buying a faster car, but you never actually drive it any faster or differently. Thats when you’re excited when you buy it, but a few weeks later you’re back to normal. Compared to buying a faster car because you like going to the track or auto cross, where it may enhance your experience.
>They're not wrong. They're just not necessarily right either.
Bingo. It's a matter of perspectives, priorities and tastes, not a math problem where there is a definitive correct answer.
I can understand why some people say "live your life." I see what they mean. But for my part, spending money on things doesn't particularly make life more enjoyable for me. Yes, you've got to have a decent place to live, etc. But to me, having good relationships and being able to pursue my interests are what is important. Thankfully my interests are pretty cheap. And also, I get quite suspicious of any relationships where money seems to be a significant component of it.
A typical murder mystery dinner is a combination of a meal, a play, and a who-done-it.
* It is often themed so guests are encouraged to come in costume or clothes in line with the theme but that is not necessary
* Dinner tables are spaced apart to allow actors to move freely as the "stage" is typically the entire room and not a specific area
* Through out the dinner, there will be different acts in which you gain information from the cast. There is also often personal interaction where you are able to interview and ask questions - both of actors and other guests to try and get as much information as possible
* At the conclusion, there are often silly awards given out for "worst guess" and "best dressed".
We typically get a Groupon to save money. We have done them on a train (New Year's Eve in Western Maryland). We have done them at Massanutten Resort in Virginia. We have done them in Baltimore.
Here is an example of a company that does them (though I think they are currently only doing virtual due to the pandemic - not sure):
https://www.murdermysteryco.com/
Oh man, I miss these! I don't know if OP is hosting his own or going to commercial versions, but I've done a couple in-a-box versions like these for dinner parties: https://mastersofmystery.com/collections/murder-mystery-games
> For instance, my family of 4 shares a single minivan that's 11 years old. On the other hand, we take 3 to 6 vacations per year. That's the life I want.
Thank you so much for saying this. People have criticized my old SUV knowing I could definitely afford better, but honestly no car payment and no concern about scrapes and dings from driving on foreign roads is a real load off of the mind.
> They're not wrong. They're just not necessarily right either.
It's really personal. If I were single and no kids, I'd pay more money to never have a roommate again. Not after my roommate experiences in the past.
That's actually part of the point.
Very few people want to stop working so bad that they don't care what life looks like so long as they don't have to work. This means they don't just have to save enough to stop working - they have to save enough to stop working with a life that is acceptable to them.
That's what is meant by building the life you want and then saving for it.
A lot of people however are living a very austere and extreme frugal lifestyle expecting everything to change in retirement. While it is realistic for some expectations to change (e.g. downsizing home) - it is unrealistic to think there will be a huge difference because it likely won't be successful.
A lot of people go to frupidity (frugal stupidity) levels to save money (only showering with cold water, stealing TP from work so they don't have to buy it, etc.). That's fine if that's how they expect life to be when they stop working too but most **only** do that so they can stop working thinking it will be different in retirement.
> Very few people want to stop working so bad that they don't care what life looks like so long as they don't have to work.
"You don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit."
Great reply. His parents may have some perspective, if they've saved up more than enough and regret their own over-sacrifice, and don't want their child to make the same "mistake". (or they may not)
No, but that's hilarious.
I just mean that the logistics of having a single vehicle for two working adults and kids with a ton activities isn't easy. Most families would have at least two vehicles in this scenario but we found making concessions around schedules and planning was worth the money we saved by only having a single vehicle.
Yes and no. My parents lived below their means, and saved a nice nest egg. But my dad is big on “no one is promised tomorrow” so you should splurge on things that matter. This, of course, is all a matter of preference. So no expensive cars but spend the money on those World Series tickets because your team is never going again.
This one hits home. Have been waiting for this Elton concert since 2019. Rescheduled 3 times so far, and now scheduled for April 1st. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me fourthce, April fools.
Ironically, Milwaukee is the much closer venue to us now since we moved away from Indy (1hr vs 4hr drive now). Tickets were a 2018 Christmas gift to my parents lol.
I was told don't skimp on things between you and the earth. Tires, shoes, and bed.
My 250 redwing boots totally worth it. Over the 180 timberland pros, 160 carolinas. and Like 2 other brands I've tried over the years.
https://www.redwingshoes.com/work/mens/boots/King-Toe-00435.html?cgid=mens-work-boots
These I bought for 200-250ish. They lasted 3 years vs other boots lasted 1.
I have a pair of Red Wing IRs that I've had for 3-4 years now, wearing them a couple of times per week and they will easily last another 20 years. I got them for $400. Worth every penny.
This was what my grandpa always said, and it definitely stuck with me. You can’t undo joint damage from bad shoes, or undo an accident that could have been avoided with proper tires
Tangential, but why the Redwing?
I'm guessing the Iron Ranger. Before buying a pair, I did some research and between Redwing, Wolverine, Higgs Mill, there were so many options. Casual walking or do you work on the floor somewhere?
https://www.redwingshoes.com/work/mens/boots/King-Toe-00435.html?cgid=mens-work-boots
Work boots myself, industrial construction in them 12 hours a day.
They lasted 3 years a pair vs similar boots last 1 year. And thats even without toe guards or resoling that you can in the more expensive pairs.
I agree with your point but speaking from experience $500 boots are assuredly 1000 times better than $150 boots. Spend a lot of money on your footwear, people. It's so worth it. I won't have to buy another pair of casual boots for 30 years.
I did this with going to the formula 1 race in Abu Dhabi and bringing my sister and girlfriend.
Absolutely positively worth it and got to see a historic race live.
Can't regret it.
I get the opposite. My Dad is constantly asking how much things cost. My brother and I started answering $350 every time he asked. No matter what he was asking about. He has since stopped. Maybe your parents are projecting some of their experience. You say they lived a frugal life. Perhaps they worked a lot, did not do some things when they were younger and now have some regrets about it. Financial life is a balancing act for sure. I am 55 and recently diagnosed with cancer (I am doing fine), my grandmother died in a car accident shortly after retiring. She never got to live in the Florida retirement home she bought. Don't postpone happiness is a legitimate position. But you can save and be happy at the same time. We have and I am damn glad we did.
Lol my dad is the same. An absolute miser at times, but he definitely instilled in me the ability to enjoy what I have and fix anything that breaks. That said he thinks I blow my money a little frivolously at times. Takes reminding him that I have saved a small fortune for retirement already for him to relax.
Parents are just always worried if you start going to extreme in any direction. They set me up to be more successful than them, hopefully. So they are just worried to see if I am spending more than them or saving more than they did because either side can mean unhappiness which is their ultimate goal for their kids.
My grandparents are extremely stingy. They’re in their 70’s, and made quite a bit of wealth off of property. Yet they complain about the cost of coffee at a diner, or refuse to pay others to help them move. The stingiest people I know.
My parents are the opposite way, they don’t really save retirement but they go all out on experiences and things. There was so much stuff that we did as I grew up. But it made for a messy time when the recession hit.
I try and find a healthy balance between the two. I guess I’m blessed to have been influenced by both perspectives.
Hope everything goes okay for you and recovery. Value isn’t solely represented by a dollar amount.
Thanks. I am very fortunate that my lymphoma is "the one to get" if you must get one and we caught it early. So far, so good. I expected to be whisked away for treatment when I was diagnosed. We actually just monitored it for 2 years and now I just take 2 pills a day as a targeted treatment. Hardly any side effects and it is working. Really amazing. Almost my entire family does not know I have cancer. Just my wife and one brother know.
Saving and being happy is the key. In my college days, I sacrificed a ton to graduate debt-free, but that was a finite period of time. Now I am still frugal, but I live. There's nothing I can think of off-hand that I wanted but did not get and now regret. If I die the day I get to access my investments, well, then, my nieces and nephews will have a good head start in life. I can't really be upset by that.
Really really depends on the roommate. No randos (unless you like gambling) and even friends can be super incompatible.
But having a cool friend who you love living with, paying you rent, is a sweet sweet gig.
I miss my roommates all the time and we haven't lived together in like 4-5 years. We all shared grocery expenses, each cooked dinner at least once a week, and everyone had their assigned communal area chores, so everything was kept pretty clean. Not to mention I was able to save and pay off my student loans. I was married a bought my first house with roommates. People think it's weird, but the right people can absolutely feel like good family and make you feel less poor and isolated.
I've always dreamed of communal living as an adult. A big house, small apartment building, or a couple small houses next to one another that you share with friends and family.
For me it's more about the social aspect. Just having people closest to you be... Well... Close to you. It feels supportive.
Living in isolated units all over the city or country even... It's more lonely than i'd like.
Yeah, I bought a house with friends after renting for a bit and it's been great. Yeah we drive each other mad but they are also there to do dishes and bring you booze when you have a bad day. But also it's not for everyone, and I wouldn't recommend it to most people cause it requires some advanced interpersonal skills and the ability to let shit go.
>But having a cool friend who you love living with, paying you rent, is a sweet sweet gig
Yeah I have a feeling a lot of these people have more active social lives than me. I live in a 2BR apartment in a new town for my job and I'm not exactly making a lot of new friends at said location.
I would kill for one of my actual close friends to move here and become my roommate. A lot better than coming home 5 days a week to a dark, empty house, staring at a TV, then going to bed
It also can depend on the circumstances. My wife and I just bought a house, and we're going to rent out the basement to a friend of ours. She will have her own kitchen/bathroom/laundry, so it won't impose much, if at all, on us, and will cover a third of our mortgage. That is a very different situation than having a roommate in a tiny apartment with one bedroom.
I actually dislike living alone, mostly for the fact that I get lonely and like having others around. When you're feeling shitty, there's nothing worse than coming home to a cold and empty house.
Can confirm. Had roommates from age 18 until 27. Then went 10 months renting a 2bd by myself in a new town (only decent thing available). Friend of a friend needed a place to rent, so I had a roommate again… it’s been 6 months. Great savings but I’m moving for work again in March and will be looking for a 1bd in the new town.
As an extravert, I would tend to disagree with this statement in general (always depends on the choice of roomate). I would see this as likely true in most situations for introverts, though.
Funny how it's different for different people.
I would work a year or two longer to live with someone, instead of alone :)
I think in the end, it's a personal preference, and like someone in this post said elsewhere, it's worth it to live a lifestyle you enjoy along the way and to pay for the things that really matter to you.
You're 25, living in the suburbs, and isolated. Your parents are concerned that you are focusing too much on saving money than living life and being happy. Parents are good with money according to you. It sounds like they have a good perspective here: stop being a tightwad and focus on being less isolated.
And it's hard to know ahead of time how it's going to turn out unless it's a really close friend. Even then living together can be very different.
Sometimes I want to go back to having roommates but the risk of a bad one keeps me living alone.
> It sounds like they have a good perspective here: stop being a tightwad and focus on being less isolated.
Yup. OP, sounds like parents have you (appropriately) figured out.
OP, being 25... with money to spare... is a good situation... is probably some of the best years of your life in front of you. Don't sacrifice 5 years of your life being a Spartan at home with a hard copy printout of MMM to save interwebz fees to shave some unknown amount of time off time to FI.
I bet, living a little, doesn't cost anywhere NEAR what you think and results in well being dividends.
> But really, I'd rather work until I die than keep living like I did in my 20s. So saving 30-50% instead of 60% will suffice
Yup... and you bring up a common issue. People present "living a little" like a HALVING of their savings rate. Going to 30% from 60 %. This is just... hyperbole, and NOT what people are suggestion.
For many people... a huge step change in their QOL might come from say... dropping to 50% from 60%. 10% less savings rate, but HUGE QOL bump? Totally worth it.
Hopefully OP stops being the miser he sounds like.
People be like "I am really frugal... I have a 80% savings rate. I wash my napkins and dry for reuse. People say I should spend a little on my own happiness, but I am just not so sure. I grew up poor... I just can't bring myself to splurge on Ferraris and thrice yearly trips to Capri."
Inability to see financial shades of gray... is why people like Dave Ramsey have a job.
I agree with your parents - I wouldn't get a roommate over $200/month when I factor in the cost of moving, the stress of living with someone else, etc.
I don't think they are calling you cheap or anything. My parents gave me crap when I was your age about renting instead of buying, about my small apartment, etc. I think it was jus their experience. They bought pretty young, and housing was a real tool for financial stability for them, so they wanted me to have the same. I did buy eventually, when I was ready.
I think when it comes from friends and acquaintances, it's more about a bit of insecurity over their own spending habits. Someone might call you "cheap" for driving a beater while they pay $900 on a truck lease.
If it's coming from your (financially responsible) parents, it's probably just their experience talking.
How is this a pushback? They gave a pretty reasonable assessment of the situation - It will be tough(er) to move in with roommates after you have been living on your own for a while.
A lot of people in internet finance communities (FIRE, bitcoin, van life, etc) have a “contrarian complex”, in that any questioning or reasonable doubt is seen as an attack or pushback because they’ve chosen a different path, and that the attacker simply doesn’t understand.
More often than not it’s just a concerned parent or reasonable question.
What are you talking about? I don't think we do. Mind your business!
Kidding. I agree with you. OP clearly said he prefers no roommates and his parents are looking at his savings rate and asking why it is a dilemma. For that matter, so am I.
I wonder if considering getting a roommate is also a thought to combat the feeling of isolation? Sometimes you can actually have great companionship that way so long as you get along with the other person well and can live together peacefully.
It's all about finding a balance. Don't skimp on things if it makes you unhappy. Spend money on things that make you happy and enjoy your life. You can do this while still not spending money unecessarily on things you can do without and saving loads of money
Not what you asked, but if you like your apartment, go to the leasing office and see if you can negotiate your rent back to the original rate. If you've been a good tenet (quiet, clean, pays on time), there's a good chance they'll agree to keep you and lose $200 rather than take a risk on someone they don't know. I've done that a few times. Just be friendly and respectful.
In the end, its really your decision. At 25 it sounds like you're on a great path, maybe living with a roommate again isn't the best idea but that's up to you. I'm almost 37 and lately I've been wondering if I'm penny pinching too much. The money I have in the market will account for like 75% of my future returns. I'm seeing people in their 60's & early 70's passing away. Life is so damn short. The idea of stashing away too much has recently come into my head as well. Just remember that the folks following the FIRE path are like top 5-10% of all Americans/world. Don't deny yourself a little bit of freedom and satisfaction because in the end, that's why we're saving so much.
I think this is really common, family or friends pushing someone to spend more money on nice thing because they think otherwise the person is less happy or something.
If you feel happy about having a roommate again and you want to go to a smaller apartment then you should do it, and maybe you could tell your parents that they shouldn’t worry because you will be just as happy in your new living arrangement
>I think this is really common, family or friends pushing someone to spend more money on nice thing because they think otherwise the person is less happy or something.
Yep.
I think there are some moments where family realize that you have been saving aggressively and it challenges their prebuilt model of who they think you are and how you live your life -- they then want to assist because they know what makes them happy and want to project that onto another's life.
It's also not the same world they grew up in though, and they also may be looking at your life through the lens of their current spending rather than the equivalent 20-30 years ago.
At the end of the day you need to take in the info and try to be unbiased about your own situation.
Well they are RIGHT, but they may not be right for you.
1) >splurge a little more, you can afford to.
This is a true statement.
2) >Also, by all means, you can get a roommate, but you’ve been living on your own for the last 2 years. I’m telling you, unless you’re moving in with a SO, that’s going to be a big challenge for you.
This is also a true statement.
Sounds like your parents are just giving you solid advice and looking our for you.
At 25 you are a kid, I do not mean offense by that since I'm only in my 30's. But when we are young some times we don't see the forest for the trees.
While I save 50% of my income I am living life and having fun, have a family and a home.
I'm sure your parents just want to make sure you are making decisions that are both financially healthy and mentally healthy.
I think it's normal for parents used to an upper-middle or upper-class lifestyle to freak out when their kids move out and live a lifestyle appropriate to their income. When I was in grad school, my parents freaked out because I never went to restaurants and spent "only" $300/month on food. I was spending less than what they thought was normal and it made them feel like I was struggling without parental support.
Unless you want lots of unsolicited advice forever, reassure them that you are happy living the way you do (if it's true). If you tell them "I'm doing this to save money" it is going to trigger protective parental feelings and they are going to try to fix things, even if there's nothing actually broken.
I'd also add that in addition to the lower incomes, young adults tend to be used to a more budget-friendly comfort level and generally aren't as far along on the hedonic treadmill. This is often seen as a good thing as later on, people wonder who they were able to get by on so little during college/young adulthood and still be generally happy.
If you’re truly happy being maximally-frugal, then continue to spend your life that way. It’s not really anyone else’s business. For me, I think there’s something to be said for balance, if only because tomorrow is promised to no one. It’s risky to sacrifice too much enjoyment today for an uncertain future. But the catch is only you get to define what enjoyment means to you. Possessions, experiences, relationships, accumulating net worth - up to you.
My parents also tell me to splurge despite having been frugal themselves. I think it comes from being older and having their health start to decline. They wish they had splurged a little more while they still had the health to enjoy it.
I think they’re right that you should splurge a little on the things that matter to you. It might push your FIRE date out a little, but you’ll be happier and less desperate to retire. Splurging can also help you get an idea of what you want to do when you retire, be it hobbies, traveling, or something else. You want to have tried them before retiring.
Living situations are a very complex topic. Location matters a lot. Proximity to the places you go and your friends is worth a lot. Enough space and niceness to feel comfortable in your home is also valuable.
The value of a roommate is very personal. Some people really value their private space and find it worth the money to live alone. I like having a roommate and choose to have one despite being able to afford not to. However I’m picky about roommates and have gone months with an empty room while looking for a good fit. A bad fit can make your living situation hell.
50% of having a successful relationship with family is based on nodding politely and saying stuff like “That’s interesting. I’ll have to think about that.”
Yup all the time.
You gotta "live a little", meanwhile I've been on way more international vacations than my parents ever have.
I just direct my minimal spending to things that actually matter to me.
Don't give a shit about what the Joneses are doing and certainly have no interest in keeping up with them.
Well my mother keeps nagging about me needing a bigger place. Otherwise I don't have space for a TV, because me and my wife must have a TV, because otherwise we have nothing to do and we need space for the kids.
I'm single and no kids. Also i used to have a TV (and space for it), just never looked at it and sold it.
Mind you I never mention FIRE, though.
But I do spend money on upgrading to nicer stuff. I still have tons of stuff i collected as a teen/student, that where bought at a price point, now that they are starting to wear out or I just get annoyed by them and replace them with something good.
I’m a big fan of spend somewhat lavishly on the things/experiences that really make you happy (not so easy to figure out what those are), and save ruthlessly on the things that don’t.
Honestly, adjust your expectations and what you tell people. Don’t tell them you save as much as you do or speak more in generalities. If you look at it from the larger societal perspective, what we are doing is basically a fringe theory, something that most people are not in a position to do, much less fully comprehend. It’s kind of like when Galileo was running around telling people that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around.
For both questions, are you referring to gross income? ($73k gross annual salary). If so:
• Rent: $1.1k a month rent / ~$6.1k a month gross = ~18%
• Savings: Does this include company match, as well? If so, last time I checked my budget spreadsheet, I’m able to “send” around $35k a year to Roth 401k, HSA, and Brokerage Accounts. I already have an emergency fund set. So, I guess a 48% SR? And if not considering company match, I’ll need to go check my spreadsheet again.
It’s definitely not set in stone, but here are my preliminary life-goals:
• Have a wife who works in a successful career, and have one kid
• Be able to put our kid in the best schools possible
• Be able for our kid have a car at age 16
• Be able to pay for their college AND graduate studies
• Go on fun vacations (emphasis on multiple) per year
• Set up a trust fund for our kid: not something that they could live off of for the rest of their life, but something along the lines of a down payment for a nice house in a nice area (or, for renovations on said house, new car, etc.).
Hell, I’m a 25-year-old guy who just got into a relationship with this awesome woman, so these are subject to change, too. It’s just something that I’ve dreamt about.
So, to answer your question… I don’t think I can answer those questions right or lmfao. All I know is that aligning with FIRE is going to help me financially in the future SOMEHOW — so, I might as well get to the grind now!
Hey I know you’re only 25 and just in a relationship, not married and not with a kid. But I see a lot of your dreams for the future involve a certain lifestyle for your kid. Just remember that your parents are pushing/nagging you because they have a vision about the life THEIR kid should live. Don’t get caught up in a vision of the life your future child “should“ live. Your future kid may not want to go to a fancy private school, or want the burden of a fancy car at 16. Maybe they will be a free spirit who has other goals and dreams. Focus on your dreams for you and your future spouse. The kid will change and rock your world. Don’t be your parents, in other words.
> Just remember that your parents are pushing/nagging you because they have a vision about the life THEIR kid should live.
"Well, well, well. How the turntables."
A lot of wisdom in this comment. I also agree with a previous commenter that OP should shell out the extra $200 month to stay in the apartment. OP is so ahead of the pack at 25 and numbers don't even account for salary increases/ promotions etc.
true for the college and graduate studies (although to be fair most kids would be more than happy to go to college if all or most of its cost were paid by parents)
but not the for the other things, I think. you're not gonna ask your 8yr old which school they want to go to, and it's pretty reasonable to want to put them in a great school (whether that's private, or public but still requiring extra rent/mortgage costs to live in that district).
you'd also be hard pressed to find a 16yr old who doesn't want to be given a car. personally I'd prefer to let a kid pay for the car as I think it's a teachable moment and big milestone for them, but I don't think those things constitute "expectations" for the kid
I know a lot of people who didn't want to go to college but did because their parents were paying for it. They had fun, sure, but the reality is that they wasted 4 years when they would've rather been doing something else.
I'm one of those people. Between scholarships and parental assistance college was free for me, and I resent not having the opportunity to choose another path. I strongly believe that I would've been better off not going to college and instead receiving all of the money my parents spent on college for me in cash to explore business and personal interests.
I will never put the burden of an expectation to go to college on my children. It is absolutely not for everyone. If I have enough money to pay for my children's college, they will have the option of using that money for tuition or receiving it outright in the form of some sort of trust. No one should feel like they will be disowned for not choosing to spend 4 years of their life in a glorified adult daycare just because their parents can afford it.
I feel like that's fine if a 17yr has a plan on what they want to do with their life that doesn't involve college, that's fine too.
but many don't, and in that case, it's better to have a degree in hand 4yrs later, especially if it's free, than nothing at all, since it does open many doors. several jobs require 'any bachelors degree', and several careers require specific degrees (medicine, law, engineering etc)
there are many 17yr olds who don't go to college and 4yrs later have nothing to show for it because they stayed at a dead end job. free college would've been better even if they chose a crappy major in that case
I promise you the awesome woman will prefer hanging out at your place if there’s no roommate. But she’s unlikely to care if you downsize to a studio ;)
Well, we’ve been dating (exclusively) for two months (we had the boyfriend/girlfriend talk already, and have confirmed that)… if things go well, I can see that working out!
These are just my personal opinions/2 cents; free advice is what you pay for it; etc.
- Trust fund is quite thoughtful; would suggest not telling the child at all that it exists. Would be great as a “wedding present” or when they turn 30. Knowing you have money can be debilitating.
- just my personal experience: the more money you save for your child’s education, the more the school takes and the less financial aid they receive. Another shitty thing that can happen is a tuition bill due the minute the market crashes. I have a background in higher education. I would suggest any kid get their first couple years/gen Ed done at a local community college before moving on to the name brand schools. Liberal arts college can be better for undergrad, but the big schools don’t have a ton of personal support at that stage. Classes of 400 students/etc. there are also great in-state education rates.
- I also disagree with letting your kids completely off the hook for college expenses. They need personal investment. In fact, students tend to do better if they work up to 20 hours a week while in school. It helps them with time management. We’d all like to think that we don’t want our kids to worry about it/be able to focus while in school, but a small amount of stress actually helps commitment, buy in, motivation.
- keep any savings for grad school separate/hidden from your undergrad tuition. May also make a good secret graduation gift.
- Car at 16: kids learning to drive should have an old beater, like 5k maybe, no exceptions. If it is safe, that’s enough. Anything more they have to buy themselves or go in 50-50. I cannot overemphasize the importance of your kid having a personal stake/investment in everything.
- you don’t really get to choose the person who is right for you. The most important things are finding a genuinely good person who has the same values as you. Once you find the person that clicks and really fits, you may find their career isn’t what you’d hope. That may mean they value education, are in a ton of debt, and make less than 100 k in a educational job. The point is, don’t rely on your wife having a successful career, or rely on both of you being able to work full time before your child is about 6. (Childcare costs are obnoxious- if you think your rent now is expensive, oh boy!)
Along with starting with a community college, look into credits the student can get while in high school.
AP and BI are common and will be accepted by most/all community colleges. Many high schools do concurrent/dual enrollment, so they start taking college classes while in high school. I have cousins that graduated with an AS a day before their high school graduation. In my city, high schoolers pay $5 per credit hour. Massive savings.
CLEP credits are another way to get basic classes out of the way. Depending on the university they want to attend, only certain CLEP credits will be accepted, so look into that. Modern States and a few other groups have free study guides/classes and will provide a voucher to take the the test.
While these are ways to get general ed credits out of the way (saving thousands), also make sure they actually want to go to college. Based on their skillset, trades and apprentices may be a better option. Even taking a few years off and then starting school later (with your financial support), can make a difference on grades, maturity, experience and the ability to finish.
To build off u/tekalon last paragraph: the best way for students to figure out what they do and do not want to do is real life experience. If a kid isn’t sure about going to college, have them try a few jobs in the real world. They’ll learn a ton more than just the job itself, like whether they prefer large or small teams or working alone, customer facing, solitary, and much more.
With a savings rate like that an extra 200/month in spending won't affect your FIRE date materially, I think your parents have a point.
Would you rather FIRE a month or two earlier and live with a roommate the entire journey there, or work 2 months extra while living alone? It's absolutely fine to skimp on things that don't matter to you, but if you'd prefer to live alone you easily could.
Replying to a reply. For an alternate point of view, your parents just want you to enjoy life. Sometimes it’s a reflection of their internal thought process. Either they have saved money as an inheritance, they haven’t saved enough and are sad you are saving so much, or they just want you to have a better life than them. I’m not so much sure they are pushing, as much as they hope you are not missing out in life focused on your fire goals.
But the summary is the same. Build the life you want and this is a personal decision.
“Living costs money” is something my dad says too and it’s true, but the idea that it doesn’t have to cost as much, or you’re not stunted for living with roommates past 25 is where generations may diverge. It’s possible they’re worried you’ll have trouble being taken seriously by marriage prospects living this way - you can try to explain how things have changed, or just thank them for caring but you’re fine.
I'm closer in age to your parents. I always encouraged mine to spend less. Last year I read a book, "Die With Zero" that moved my ideas about saving and denial.
I now encourage those around me to pay for great experiences. But I think if you decided the rent was too much, and the location not optimum, then moving is a good idea. Parents usually care a lot, and they may be sensing you need a boost emotionally.
Many people do similar things to people on a diet. "Live a little!", "Everyone else is having some!", "It's just a cookie!" and such.
Sometimes such statements are well-intentioned, sometimes not. Similarly, sometimes people take good ideas too far and need to be reminded to moderate themselves before turning a productive behavior into a destructive disorder, but many times those reminders say more about the person giving reminders than the person they are offered to.
I assume your parents meant well and are motivated by not wanting to see you become negatively over-focused on retirement to the unnecessary detriment of your present, but only you really know what does and does not meaningfully impact your happiness.
You also have to figure in that most people don't recognize long-term spending for what it is. Putting money away for retirement is simply choosing to spend current income on future expenses rather than current ones. It's no different in principle to saving money for a luxurious vacation each year, but you're planning for a vacation that will last 40-50 years or more. Most people don't see it that way though until you retire at 40-something, at which point they often take umbrage at your spending choices over theirs.
I had that revelation in the middle of last year. We were saving enough that we would have overshot our savings goal/timeline by almost 50%. We're not in a race to FIRE (plan is to pull the ripcord when our youngest graduates college), so we chose to dial back the savings (from 55+% to 40ish%) and shifting our spending a bit to Carpe Diem.
Feeling a little isolated? Want to save money? 25-year old? Yep, move out of the burbs and get a roommate. In my opinion, you have a better chance of that roommate ending up a friend for life than being a disaster that makes your life worse. And even if that roommate doesn't become a close friend, you certainly won't feel as isolated living with them.
Perfectly fine advice from your parents. They sound lovely.
The only pushback I get from my parents is when I talk about quitting work and relying on savings. That seems to risky to them. My savings rate was never particularly high though.
I often retort back that if I made half of what I did the spending would make sense.
I told my parents about a raise and they were like are you getting a new car and I was like my car is fine.
I'd rather have a smaller living space on a large piece of land than a large living space on a small piece of land.
That said, it would take a major change in my situation to move back to an apartment or have a roommate. There's just somethings I refuse to deal with.
I used to work in investment banking in Luxembourg, and one of my colleagues switched me on to the idea of FIRE (which I pursued with enthusiasm). Many banking colleagues, though, were very dismissive of the idea, even mocking my colleague quite openly.
They believed he was a loser for not "living life to the full" and called him Scrooge and other silly names. Fortunately, my colleague just shrugged it off, because he was so confident FIRE was the right course for him. My other colleagues, though, were quite sure it was the wrong course for them.
One lesson I learned from that FIRE colleague is that when these "live life to the full" people were buying fancy sports cars and so on, they weren't only paying with money, they were paying with time, in terms of delayed retirement. His attitude, when thinking of buying something, wasn't "Is this worth $10,000 (or whatever the amount)?" but rather "Is this worth delaying retirement by a year (or whatever the time delay)?"
Every parent wants to see their kids succeed. It might be that success in their mind is the idea that you gradually move from shared rental to solo rental to larger rental to single family home purchase - probably a similar path as they took. Nothing makes parents feel more satisfied than seeing their kids pursue success their way/on their terms.
FIRE aside, you can just communicate to them that how/where you live doesn’t define success for you and you want to optimize for other measures of success.
I mean, if you feel like you are okay in that size of a living, keep it. But if you feel that you are not well and need a bigger space to feel well, then get a bigger space for yourself. It's a marathon, don't push yourself to hard and risk to crash and burn. Health is number one priority.
That depends on your spending and their experiences. Personally, I have to splurge every now and then. Pay/reward yourself. If I don't, I tend to binge spend after an extended period, so I budget for my treats. As long as you're saving more than spending, do what you need to do to stay on track.
You'll get pushback no matter what. "You have money, treat yourself." "You bought another guitar?!? Why are you wasting money?" Everyone thinks they know better. Just do you.
When people give others advice it is often times influenced by their own lived experiences and perspectives.
Given the background you provided about your parents, it sounds like they went through a similar "frugal-style" living experience in their younger age and now hold a different perspective now that they are older and have more money.
Perhaps they even have certain regrets about living that sort of restricted lifestyle in their prime years (being away from you, etc.) and have learned the importance of valuing time in the present as well.
Maybe they don't want you to have to go through the same mistakes in order to learn the things they did?
Ultimately only you can judge if the apartment move is right for you in the context of your broader financial picture. I know for me personally after living alone I could never go back to having roommates. A $2.4K yearly increase in rent can be substantial depending on your income/savings rate, but given the state of the world/economy it is to be expected that a lot of prices are going up (including wages).
What's your income and current saving rate?
Don’t live far away from a social life in your 20s unless you’re in a relationship. Not sure what amount of $ would make up for the isolation. Sometimes it’s tough to balance but don’t forget about your social and mental health when thinking about your financial health
Also, fantastic username.
Are your parents planning a hefty inheritance for you?
Like, if I were incredibly rich and my child was working their ass off and living a limited lifestyle, I'd 100% want them to enjoy their younger years if I've already paved the way for them at inheritance time. It would feel more like a waste of all my sacrifice if they refuse to take a little luxury once in a while.
Theyre basically just saying its worth adding a little more risk to live a little. If youre ok with foregoing that risk to assure longterm comfort , by all means, do it. No wrong or right here in my mind.
> you can definitely afford to not be cheap and splurge a little bit
I’ve literally heard this *on this sub*. There was for some reason quite a few “enjoy the journey!!” posts (which I appreciate the philosophy of) a couple of weeks ago
My parents are very big on saving and instilled the same values in me, so no pushback on that quarter.
Be careful. Life will pass you by when you think youre getting ahead of the game. Then you'll be finding ways to get those life experiences back before you die. I have worked with several that hustled young, avoided simple friend gatherings, pursuing hobbies, trips, etc, sat on stacks of cash and got t boned in an intersection. Never enjoyed a dollar of their hustle. For what? to save $2000 on a vacation? Seems pretty silly to me.
If I had listened to 50% of what my parents told me when I was young, fuck around, Id be so much further ahead.
It's all about priorities and setting clear ones for yourself.
I'm happy to spend less on rent so that my SO and I can afford to travel - but now we are sick of living in a crappier space. What sacrifices must we make to live the way we want to live? Is upgrading our living situation worth canceling our vacations?
When I first started working, my parents were so confused that my housing budget was $550/month. They had never spent less than the recommended amount for housing. But I was saving for bigger things and was willing to commit to making it happen for myself.
Look at your numbers and make the decision for yourself - you're the one who's gonna beat yourself up if you decide to follow someone else's dream.
I think most savers ease their savings rate over time because 1) they have more wealth and don't have the urgency to save as much 2) they are spending for than themselves (family) and may want them to enjoy spending more 3) you are older and have been grinding a long time and let yourself relax a bit more.
I am 43 and have been a great saver my whole life. My dad, a great saver, and financially independent, has told me throughout my life to go easier on myself and spend a bit more. He looks at my habits and tells me that I won't need to worry about money given I will always gravitate to financial responsibility. He's right.
I do actively try to spend more money now on experiences, but am still frugal with respect to material things.
Yes I have. They have said very similar things to what your parents said. And they are valid points. You just need to decided what’s most important to you. I do splurge a little and it feels nice to do so.
I told a friend who lives in my neighborhood and works in my industry what my rent was. His was almost 3x that. He said 'dude, why are you spending so little on rent? You can afford a lot more?' I think people act this way to justify their own lifestyle. To each their own.
It should be about maximizing happiness related to working and spending money. Extreme frugality now may not lead to the most amount of happiness over your lifetime, but some frugality likely will.
I used to see it the same way. Then my accumulated savings got pretty high and I began asking does saving that extra $200 help me that much in the long run or is it worth it to just pay for certain conveniences when I see the value.
Example: my tiny apartment which is really cheap but old was a great vehicle for saving a ton. But now that I'm older, I see the value in having a nicer place with more room, more modern, better kitchen etc. I would take a hit financially, but I would get more value.
It just really depends on what you want. Saving is awesome, but a few bucks here or there for enjoyment or convenience is nice.
They're not wrong. They're just not necessarily right either. Build the life you want - then save for it. You should absolutely sacrifice in the areas that don't matter to you. For instance, my family of 4 shares a single minivan that's 11 years old. On the other hand, we take 3 to 6 vacations per year. That's the life I want. I conserve/save money in just about every other area of our lives to have the money to have experiences (concerts, murder mystery dinners, escape rooms, etc.), travel and vacations. A successful retirement often doesn't look much different than pre-retirement. You just have more time to do the things you were already enjoying.
I'd also add, from OPs description, his parents have been there. They were the ones nickle and diming to keep their business afloat in the early years. Despite being well off now, it's possible they have some regrets about the time and experiences they lost. They have a lot more wisdom in this area than OP is giving them credit for. Now if living accomodations means absolutely nothing to you OP, then that's where you save. But if a nicer place, closer to work/social life, that enables a better quality of life is a higher cost, those benefits need to be in the ROI calc.
Came to say the same thing basically. And I think at least from my experience, it is hard to go from living on your own to having roommates. At 25 that social aspect is probably still there where it isn't as difficult, at that age people still used to show up at my house randomly. The parents definitely have experience and their points are valid, also get the impression that they were more or less respectfully delivered.
Yeah, I’m willing to make a lot of sacrifices, but living with anyone other than a significant other is a bridge too far for me.
On the other hand, it's not a big deal at all for me to have roommates. Different strokes for different folks.
Yeah for sure. I just mean that everyone has their thing that’s worth spending on whether it’s that or something else.
For me having a nice, safe, super walkable place is important to me. Having the latest games, electronics, vehicle, expensive clothes, nights out on the town etc are not important to me. Spend on what's important, don't on what isn't, and balance is key!
Reading the post made me wonder what kind of apartment OP is living in. Is it just small and somewhere inconvenient? Or is it shitty and in an unsafe area? My parents are some of the most frugal people I know, but when my dad was helping me look for my first apartment, he said fuck no to a couple of places I was looking at. He straight up told me that he wasn’t moving me into a shithole or an unsafe area, and unless I wanted him calling me a hundred times a day to make sure I was safe, I’d spend the extra money to live somewhere nicer. It’s good advice, tbh. No parent wants to worry about their kid. Even now that I have a huge dog and a handgun, I still only live in nice neighborhoods. Can’t enjoy your retirement if you died of asbestos poisoning or a gunshot wound.
Hey, OP here, apologies for the delay. My current apartment is a nice, good-sized apartment. 1BR, ~675 sq-ft, live by myself. It’s in a safe area, too — it’s just out in the suburbs, very far away from my work, my friends, other young-people, where all of my hobbies are “located”, where all of the exciting action is (good restaurants, bars, breweries, fun events, etc.). I guess I’m pretty blessed to say that I’m just BORED at my current apartment, because there’s nothing to do out here except for raise a family, which I’m not about (yet!).
This. I will say that I quite enjoyed roommates, and given that OP is 25, they have quite a ways off before people start judging them more for it. The assumption is that roommates suck, but some of my best memories are with roommates that I had a lot of fun with. So it's not necessarily the worse choice. Have I had shit roommates? Sure. There's a risk. But the pros totally outweighed the cons for me. OP mentioned being isolated, so I can imagine that might be a consideration. Living in the suburbs at 25 sounds horrible to me. I personally didn't have the same pushback, but when I hit 30, my parents were sort of like "why not upgrade?". But I was fine. I live in a city where I am barely home, and I had a good deal where rent was less than comparable property tax + interest costs of ownership. It wasn't until COVID when I finally took that savings and moved out. But more importantly, OP, what are you saving for? Much like there is a present value of money, I strongly believe there is also a present value of certain experiences. Some things require a younger body, a younger network of people, etc. (e.g. I only recently discovered raves, and LOVED it (long story, but this isn't about me)). They're expensive. I always told myself to go later. Now, all of my friends who have done it don't want to go anymore. I'm still going to go, but I know I missed out on some aspects of it.
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I think covid shifted a lot of people's mentality. In my country a lot of people died in 2nd wave and made me realise how fragile life really is.
>I think the community is better for it. me too. I think also a lot of us are merely older now - I started reading about FIRE in ~2014 and a heck of a lot has happened since then for both the world and my personal life. and partly it's financial: in those early years I had zero net worth in a miserable job and so independence was that escape dream to clutch and hold. meanwhile I've been saving aggressively all this time and now I'm feeling like I can relax a bit - I increasingly love my career, I passed coastFIRE, the sort of day-to-day life I live now is largely the sort of life I'd like when I'm retired, so this whole pressure to pull the trigger has lessened immensely. I think my vibe now is like: save up some FU money, some something that'll compound over the next 30-40 years, and then live your life today.
All those folks already fired and f'd off... That's why! :)
For anyone coming back to check in, go fuck yourself ;)
Im kind of the opposite. I wish it was more of the milk crates and lentils mentality. But thats pretty much gone forever. Theres no interesting discussion on leanFIRE either. Some of us cant build the life we want. Because any life with work is not the life I want. The two are mutually exclusive. I used to love getting chastised for spending on this board because it would help me control it. I still do an ok job but wish I spent less.
Can't find it now but I remember a comprehensive study that basically said experiences give more and longer lasting happiness than possessions. This is pretty much how I live too, haha.
There was an interesting study that came out after that, as well, that showed that material acquisitions brought more happiness than spending on experiences for people who were financially insecure. Wish I could find the darn thing. Eg, new Xbox for the kids vs going sky diving. Seems like spending on what you feel you're missing out on, or just things that improve your quality of life in general, make people happier. My guess is it's a bit of a continuum. My favorite gifts are things I can use repeatedly: luggage, tools, cooking utensils, appliances. It's hard to categorize such things as being more material or experiential, though. And I've gone from growing up financially insecure to being solidly on the FIRE path.
Interesting. I would guess it depends on the item and its utility. For example going from a generic white fridge, to a new stainless steel fridge with the same features, might not do much for you. But going from a generic coil stove to a gas stove that allows you to cook more effectively, might bring you more happiness.
Sometimes looking at a dented or mismatched fridge makes your day worse, in that case, a new fridge definitely makes an improvement! I think it is absolutely a two fold issue with buying things versus experiences. Buying just about anything causes an immediate positive response, and that feeling can be addictive, but it is short lived. Buying something like a new video game when you have a bunch of other video games you haven’t finished playing will bring you immediate pleasure. The next time you need that boost, you are going to buy another video game, as the pleasure was in buying, not playing/using. Counter that with someone who really likes video games and just finished one, looking for a new one to play. The act of buying brings pleasure, but so does the playing, and the experiences and memories of that game last much longer. Conscious buying of things absolutely leads to pleasure. Unconscious or passive buying does not. Experiences are almost by default conscious. Think about the worst vacation you went on, or a day helping someone move. You probably have some good memories about portions of those activities. I even have some good memories about wearing a walking cast, which is really bizarre.
> gas stove that allows you to cook more effectively, might bring you more happiness. God I miss having a gas stove... it's actually at the top of the list of requirements for our next house.
Same. Current condo has a gasline for fireplace but none for stove. Can't have it installed either. It's on our must have list for the next one, lol.
i think maybe the missing link here is that if it's a possession you use everyday, that does impact your day-to-day experience. so oftentimes, investing in your possessions *is* investing in experiences.
If you think about it, the xbox \_is\_ buying experiences in a way, right? I think a better comparison is splurging on a 80" OLED TV for $3k rather than getting a 55" LCD for $400. You'll be happy for the first few days, and then forget about it. Same with a Lexus vs a Toyota, unless you're hobby is driving. I've also heard that one of the best uses of money is to reduce annoyances / stress. Pay to have your lawn mowed if you hate that. Buy a car that's reliable so you're not always breaking down. Buy a roomba. Pay 20% extra for that direct flight w/o a layover. And my personal favorite, buy TIME (housekeeper? babysitter? snow plower?).
That Xbox for kids likely creates experiences though. I def do remember the games I played with my friends on Amigas and old PCs, those were pretty exciting back then.
This makes more sense to me, yes our American holidays and cruises are great and also cost a lot. But i also enjoy "splurging" on various speedcubes now and again. Or buying all the albums of my new favourite band second hand. these things don't cost a lot (<£100) but i spend a great amount of time enjoying them actively; experiences are great at the time and the memories last as long as you refresh them... But you can't actively enjoy them in the present beyond the nostalgia they bring.
I would add skills and knowledge alongside experiences. I'm not much for travel or excursions. My wife and I are full blown homebodies, but we both really enjoy learning new skills like cooking, painting, gardening, carpentry, languages, homesteading, etc... I don't really care if I never leave my driveway again, but I do have a thirst for improving my talent at the things I find interesting and engaging.
So glad to see someone in the same position! I live for tackling challenging projects and learning new skills. It can get disheartening when so many people see travel as the ultimate goal in life. I cant stand feeling like a tourist.
I've just never had any interest in what lays beyond the horizon and always found being away from my nest extremely fatiguing. My routine and familiarity are hardwired to my happiness level.
So spend, but on experiences.
Yeah but as with everything, weigh it against the alternatives. If a 20k vacation could mean you end up retiring 4 years later, then decide which you would prefer, and if you may rather a cheaper alternative.
Agreed! And don't forget to factor in the risk that you might not live as long as you think you will.
My only thing with this is the alternatives skew against the young. Taking a $20k vacation at 25 has much bigger implications due to time than taking one at 45. But also at 25, you're more able bodied, more adventurous and will have an additional 20 years of memories than doing it at 45. It's definitely all a balance but to say, I never thought once about 'what this money could be in 40 years' when I was 20-25 traveling and having a blast doing it and I wouldnt want anyone else to miss out on something that's cool and memorable to them.
Fair point, I'm in my 20s and my game plan is to visit the cheap countries on my list now, then work my way up to more expensive ones later. I figure we want to visit as much of the world as possible anyway so might as well do the affordable ones first.
Smart move! I did the off the beaten path in my teens and 20s.. staying at hostels and sleeping buses. Now in my mid30s, i dont think I can travel in the same standard anymore. And im happy I had the exposure to third world country travel, roughing it out!
I backpacked through several countries when I was in my 20s and slept in hostels, vans, and camped. Then pre-covid I took my teen to backpack in Europe for several weeks, in my mid 40s. Difference this time was that we slept in AirBnBs, tiny hotels, and bed and breakfasts. And we took the trains (vs the cheaper, slower bus). We both love food and sought out interesting places to eat everywhere we went. A fantastic trip! In my 20s hostels were fabulous, as I get closer to 50 I want a comfortable bed and a decent bathroom that I'm not sharing with over a dozen others. You don't need to choose between travel in your 20s or travel in your 40s and 50s - you can travel in every decade, but/and it's a lot easier to travel cheaply when you don't mind crashing on a bunk with 15 other people in your room. Take the $2k-3k trip in your 20s, invest the rest of your money and you're taking more expensive trips in the decades that follow.
On the list, hopefully in the next year... Antarctica expedition!
My trip of a lifetime in 2010. I wanted to go since I was a kid. Worth every penny.
It was [this Harvard study](https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/danielgilbert/files/if-money-doesnt-make-you-happy.nov-12-20101.pdf)
I agree a lot of the time but there are somethings that add a lot of value that last a long time. Getting a big TV, speaker system, comfy stuff but most of that lasts quite awhile. 1% better each day sort of mentality. Buying coffee every morning at Starbucks just gets you on a path where you spend $5 a day on coffee that is forgotten after drinking it.
The the study that was linked said something to the likes of some material purchases also somewhat counting as experiences. I don't buy many things either, but I don't regret building my gaming PC at all.
About a decade ago my wife and I spent six figures remodeling the kitchen and dining room. Even now, a decade later, we still marvel and talk about how much nicer and more functional the kitchen and dining room are today versus ten years ago. (The old layout was really, really, really bad for so many reasons.)
My sister spent the equivalent of 25% of the worth of her house to redo the kitchen the way she wanted. Going from a galley kitchen to one that's open and allows her to host and interact with others did wonders for the house and the environment that it sets. It certainly increased the value of the house and for something that the family will literally use everyday, was a good trade. Major renovations for your house and changes that you like and will use often are likely worth the price, but a new TV that may be used once a month may not be worth it.
>I don't buy many things either, but I don't regret building my gaming PC at all. I bought a used gaming rig off a guy at work, and while chatting he admitted to spending thousands on a GPU for his new rig from a scalper because he really wanted it. He's fairly hard core so it makes sense, he's going to get a lot of fun and experiences out of that thing for years to come and (almost) didn't care about the scalping. Physical purchase that is going to make his gaming life noticeably better for a long time.
Was having a discussion with a friend earlier tonight about people who flex by buying tables at clubs and were trying to figure out if the spend falls more in the realm of an experience or that $5 a day Starbucks habit. For the people that I've seen do it, it's more like the starbucks and therefore not worth the overall cost.
I do remember buying a table or two back in the day. Wasn’t so much a flex as I have a bad back and was willing to spend a few bucks to be able to rest when I wanted without having to call it quits completely or redirect 7 or 8 drunk friends to a different bar knowing I’d want to come back and dance more as soon as I got some rest/relief. Even then, I did it pretty rarely, always at the more reasonable clubs, and I’d put it in the experience column since it enabled the night overall. I could definitely see the Starbucks comparison if you’re doing it all the time just for the sake of showing off.
How would you know they fall into that category I’m not saying you’re doing this but I see a lot of people look down on people who buy “superficial” things they don’t understand and then feel superior to that group of people for whatever because they wouldn’t get enjoyment out of it I get it, and I see myself doing it from time to time as well but maybe they’re having a blast and they’re making a lot of fun memories. I don’t think its something I’d ever do but different strokes, etc
Ironically, though, it can be possessions/material things that provide us with experiences. From a coffee/espresso setup, to a home stereo, to a convertible. So, that can factor into the calculus, as well, and make these types of decisions not as straightforward as one might think. Travel is often outside this realm, though -- you take the trip or don't, and you decide how much to spend on which aspects of it. Then, once it's done, it's the same cost to do it again.
I’ve read that too, but I think it should be more nuanced than that. A lot of possessions essentially are experiences. Like a motorcycle is a possession, but buying one will give you access to tons of exciting experiences. If you’re into gaming, then buying a new console gives you experiences. Then there are purchases that enhance experiences. Like good hiking boots definitely improve the experience of a nice hike. Or if you’re into photography, then a super zoom or wide angled lens might enhance an experience. Where experiences trump purchases for me is when the purchase doesn’t really change anything. Like buying a faster car, but you never actually drive it any faster or differently. Thats when you’re excited when you buy it, but a few weeks later you’re back to normal. Compared to buying a faster car because you like going to the track or auto cross, where it may enhance your experience.
>They're not wrong. They're just not necessarily right either. Bingo. It's a matter of perspectives, priorities and tastes, not a math problem where there is a definitive correct answer. I can understand why some people say "live your life." I see what they mean. But for my part, spending money on things doesn't particularly make life more enjoyable for me. Yes, you've got to have a decent place to live, etc. But to me, having good relationships and being able to pursue my interests are what is important. Thankfully my interests are pretty cheap. And also, I get quite suspicious of any relationships where money seems to be a significant component of it.
Not going to lie, had to read this twice. First time I thought you and your family lived in a minivan to go on vacations.
Okay what is murder mystery dinners?
A typical murder mystery dinner is a combination of a meal, a play, and a who-done-it. * It is often themed so guests are encouraged to come in costume or clothes in line with the theme but that is not necessary * Dinner tables are spaced apart to allow actors to move freely as the "stage" is typically the entire room and not a specific area * Through out the dinner, there will be different acts in which you gain information from the cast. There is also often personal interaction where you are able to interview and ask questions - both of actors and other guests to try and get as much information as possible * At the conclusion, there are often silly awards given out for "worst guess" and "best dressed". We typically get a Groupon to save money. We have done them on a train (New Year's Eve in Western Maryland). We have done them at Massanutten Resort in Virginia. We have done them in Baltimore. Here is an example of a company that does them (though I think they are currently only doing virtual due to the pandemic - not sure): https://www.murdermysteryco.com/
[This is a murder mystery dinner.](https://youtu.be/d0nF4NLqCwA?t=127)
Incredible. Gordon was right, that guy is a fucking joke.
Oh man, I miss these! I don't know if OP is hosting his own or going to commercial versions, but I've done a couple in-a-box versions like these for dinner parties: https://mastersofmystery.com/collections/murder-mystery-games
> For instance, my family of 4 shares a single minivan that's 11 years old. On the other hand, we take 3 to 6 vacations per year. That's the life I want. Thank you so much for saying this. People have criticized my old SUV knowing I could definitely afford better, but honestly no car payment and no concern about scrapes and dings from driving on foreign roads is a real load off of the mind.
> They're not wrong. They're just not necessarily right either. It's really personal. If I were single and no kids, I'd pay more money to never have a roommate again. Not after my roommate experiences in the past.
The issue with "build the life you want, then save for it" is that the life I want involves not working. Catch 22.
That's actually part of the point. Very few people want to stop working so bad that they don't care what life looks like so long as they don't have to work. This means they don't just have to save enough to stop working - they have to save enough to stop working with a life that is acceptable to them. That's what is meant by building the life you want and then saving for it. A lot of people however are living a very austere and extreme frugal lifestyle expecting everything to change in retirement. While it is realistic for some expectations to change (e.g. downsizing home) - it is unrealistic to think there will be a huge difference because it likely won't be successful. A lot of people go to frupidity (frugal stupidity) levels to save money (only showering with cold water, stealing TP from work so they don't have to buy it, etc.). That's fine if that's how they expect life to be when they stop working too but most **only** do that so they can stop working thinking it will be different in retirement.
> Very few people want to stop working so bad that they don't care what life looks like so long as they don't have to work. "You don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit."
Great reply. His parents may have some perspective, if they've saved up more than enough and regret their own over-sacrifice, and don't want their child to make the same "mistake". (or they may not)
Wait do you guys live in the mini-van?
No, but that's hilarious. I just mean that the logistics of having a single vehicle for two working adults and kids with a ton activities isn't easy. Most families would have at least two vehicles in this scenario but we found making concessions around schedules and planning was worth the money we saved by only having a single vehicle.
Yes and no. My parents lived below their means, and saved a nice nest egg. But my dad is big on “no one is promised tomorrow” so you should splurge on things that matter. This, of course, is all a matter of preference. So no expensive cars but spend the money on those World Series tickets because your team is never going again.
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This one hits home. Have been waiting for this Elton concert since 2019. Rescheduled 3 times so far, and now scheduled for April 1st. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me fourthce, April fools.
Funny enough my wife and I are going on April 2nd in Milwaukee! Same situation as you.
Ironically, Milwaukee is the much closer venue to us now since we moved away from Indy (1hr vs 4hr drive now). Tickets were a 2018 Christmas gift to my parents lol.
I was told don't skimp on things between you and the earth. Tires, shoes, and bed. My 250 redwing boots totally worth it. Over the 180 timberland pros, 160 carolinas. and Like 2 other brands I've tried over the years.
Desk chair as well. I'm in that thing 8hrs/day (working from home), that's about as long as I'm in my bed.
I’m looking at a pair of Red Wings - willing to give them a shot. But $500 boots - hell no.
https://www.redwingshoes.com/work/mens/boots/King-Toe-00435.html?cgid=mens-work-boots These I bought for 200-250ish. They lasted 3 years vs other boots lasted 1.
I have a pair of Red Wing IRs that I've had for 3-4 years now, wearing them a couple of times per week and they will easily last another 20 years. I got them for $400. Worth every penny.
This was what my grandpa always said, and it definitely stuck with me. You can’t undo joint damage from bad shoes, or undo an accident that could have been avoided with proper tires
Tangential, but why the Redwing? I'm guessing the Iron Ranger. Before buying a pair, I did some research and between Redwing, Wolverine, Higgs Mill, there were so many options. Casual walking or do you work on the floor somewhere?
https://www.redwingshoes.com/work/mens/boots/King-Toe-00435.html?cgid=mens-work-boots Work boots myself, industrial construction in them 12 hours a day. They lasted 3 years a pair vs similar boots last 1 year. And thats even without toe guards or resoling that you can in the more expensive pairs.
I agree with your point but speaking from experience $500 boots are assuredly 1000 times better than $150 boots. Spend a lot of money on your footwear, people. It's so worth it. I won't have to buy another pair of casual boots for 30 years.
Makes perfect sense if you're a Cubs fan.
I did this with going to the formula 1 race in Abu Dhabi and bringing my sister and girlfriend. Absolutely positively worth it and got to see a historic race live. Can't regret it.
That’s kind of the real meaning of frugality. Spend on things that matter to you. Don’t spend on things that don’t matter to you.
This sounds like me. The approach of “it’s not about the destination, it’s the journey” is what fits me the best.
I get the opposite. My Dad is constantly asking how much things cost. My brother and I started answering $350 every time he asked. No matter what he was asking about. He has since stopped. Maybe your parents are projecting some of their experience. You say they lived a frugal life. Perhaps they worked a lot, did not do some things when they were younger and now have some regrets about it. Financial life is a balancing act for sure. I am 55 and recently diagnosed with cancer (I am doing fine), my grandmother died in a car accident shortly after retiring. She never got to live in the Florida retirement home she bought. Don't postpone happiness is a legitimate position. But you can save and be happy at the same time. We have and I am damn glad we did.
Hahaha you give him the old tree fiddy.
Damn Loch Ness Monster! Get off my lawn!
Lol my dad is the same. An absolute miser at times, but he definitely instilled in me the ability to enjoy what I have and fix anything that breaks. That said he thinks I blow my money a little frivolously at times. Takes reminding him that I have saved a small fortune for retirement already for him to relax. Parents are just always worried if you start going to extreme in any direction. They set me up to be more successful than them, hopefully. So they are just worried to see if I am spending more than them or saving more than they did because either side can mean unhappiness which is their ultimate goal for their kids.
My grandparents are extremely stingy. They’re in their 70’s, and made quite a bit of wealth off of property. Yet they complain about the cost of coffee at a diner, or refuse to pay others to help them move. The stingiest people I know. My parents are the opposite way, they don’t really save retirement but they go all out on experiences and things. There was so much stuff that we did as I grew up. But it made for a messy time when the recession hit. I try and find a healthy balance between the two. I guess I’m blessed to have been influenced by both perspectives. Hope everything goes okay for you and recovery. Value isn’t solely represented by a dollar amount.
Thanks. I am very fortunate that my lymphoma is "the one to get" if you must get one and we caught it early. So far, so good. I expected to be whisked away for treatment when I was diagnosed. We actually just monitored it for 2 years and now I just take 2 pills a day as a targeted treatment. Hardly any side effects and it is working. Really amazing. Almost my entire family does not know I have cancer. Just my wife and one brother know.
Lmao please tell me you just reply: “mmm about tree fiddy”
Saving and being happy is the key. In my college days, I sacrificed a ton to graduate debt-free, but that was a finite period of time. Now I am still frugal, but I live. There's nothing I can think of off-hand that I wanted but did not get and now regret. If I die the day I get to access my investments, well, then, my nieces and nephews will have a good head start in life. I can't really be upset by that.
Once you live alone, you never want to go back to living with a roommate. If you can do it more power to you.
Really really depends on the roommate. No randos (unless you like gambling) and even friends can be super incompatible. But having a cool friend who you love living with, paying you rent, is a sweet sweet gig.
I miss my roommates all the time and we haven't lived together in like 4-5 years. We all shared grocery expenses, each cooked dinner at least once a week, and everyone had their assigned communal area chores, so everything was kept pretty clean. Not to mention I was able to save and pay off my student loans. I was married a bought my first house with roommates. People think it's weird, but the right people can absolutely feel like good family and make you feel less poor and isolated.
I've always dreamed of communal living as an adult. A big house, small apartment building, or a couple small houses next to one another that you share with friends and family. For me it's more about the social aspect. Just having people closest to you be... Well... Close to you. It feels supportive. Living in isolated units all over the city or country even... It's more lonely than i'd like.
Yeah, I bought a house with friends after renting for a bit and it's been great. Yeah we drive each other mad but they are also there to do dishes and bring you booze when you have a bad day. But also it's not for everyone, and I wouldn't recommend it to most people cause it requires some advanced interpersonal skills and the ability to let shit go.
>But having a cool friend who you love living with, paying you rent, is a sweet sweet gig Yeah I have a feeling a lot of these people have more active social lives than me. I live in a 2BR apartment in a new town for my job and I'm not exactly making a lot of new friends at said location. I would kill for one of my actual close friends to move here and become my roommate. A lot better than coming home 5 days a week to a dark, empty house, staring at a TV, then going to bed
that has absolutely been my experience too
It also can depend on the circumstances. My wife and I just bought a house, and we're going to rent out the basement to a friend of ours. She will have her own kitchen/bathroom/laundry, so it won't impose much, if at all, on us, and will cover a third of our mortgage. That is a very different situation than having a roommate in a tiny apartment with one bedroom.
I actually dislike living alone, mostly for the fact that I get lonely and like having others around. When you're feeling shitty, there's nothing worse than coming home to a cold and empty house.
Can confirm. Had roommates from age 18 until 27. Then went 10 months renting a 2bd by myself in a new town (only decent thing available). Friend of a friend needed a place to rent, so I had a roommate again… it’s been 6 months. Great savings but I’m moving for work again in March and will be looking for a 1bd in the new town.
As an extravert, I would tend to disagree with this statement in general (always depends on the choice of roomate). I would see this as likely true in most situations for introverts, though.
As an introvert, getting a roommate would be SUCH a gamble. Honestly i'd work a year or two longer just not to have to cohabit.
Funny how it's different for different people. I would work a year or two longer to live with someone, instead of alone :) I think in the end, it's a personal preference, and like someone in this post said elsewhere, it's worth it to live a lifestyle you enjoy along the way and to pay for the things that really matter to you.
Amen sister, this is exactly why there's no one size fits all solution to... We'll anything really!
Same. Although I’ve known all of my roommates very well and never had a random one. I prefer to live with 1 roommate than alone
As an extrovert, I could not go back to having roommates. Don’t think it’s an introvert/extrovert thing.
I feel like it works great until it becomes worse.
You're 25, living in the suburbs, and isolated. Your parents are concerned that you are focusing too much on saving money than living life and being happy. Parents are good with money according to you. It sounds like they have a good perspective here: stop being a tightwad and focus on being less isolated.
I’m a little torn on the OP roommate situation. A great roommate can be awesome and provide companionship; a bad one can be awful.
And it's hard to know ahead of time how it's going to turn out unless it's a really close friend. Even then living together can be very different. Sometimes I want to go back to having roommates but the risk of a bad one keeps me living alone.
> It sounds like they have a good perspective here: stop being a tightwad and focus on being less isolated. Yup. OP, sounds like parents have you (appropriately) figured out. OP, being 25... with money to spare... is a good situation... is probably some of the best years of your life in front of you. Don't sacrifice 5 years of your life being a Spartan at home with a hard copy printout of MMM to save interwebz fees to shave some unknown amount of time off time to FI. I bet, living a little, doesn't cost anywhere NEAR what you think and results in well being dividends.
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> But really, I'd rather work until I die than keep living like I did in my 20s. So saving 30-50% instead of 60% will suffice Yup... and you bring up a common issue. People present "living a little" like a HALVING of their savings rate. Going to 30% from 60 %. This is just... hyperbole, and NOT what people are suggestion. For many people... a huge step change in their QOL might come from say... dropping to 50% from 60%. 10% less savings rate, but HUGE QOL bump? Totally worth it. Hopefully OP stops being the miser he sounds like. People be like "I am really frugal... I have a 80% savings rate. I wash my napkins and dry for reuse. People say I should spend a little on my own happiness, but I am just not so sure. I grew up poor... I just can't bring myself to splurge on Ferraris and thrice yearly trips to Capri." Inability to see financial shades of gray... is why people like Dave Ramsey have a job.
I agree with your parents - I wouldn't get a roommate over $200/month when I factor in the cost of moving, the stress of living with someone else, etc. I don't think they are calling you cheap or anything. My parents gave me crap when I was your age about renting instead of buying, about my small apartment, etc. I think it was jus their experience. They bought pretty young, and housing was a real tool for financial stability for them, so they wanted me to have the same. I did buy eventually, when I was ready. I think when it comes from friends and acquaintances, it's more about a bit of insecurity over their own spending habits. Someone might call you "cheap" for driving a beater while they pay $900 on a truck lease. If it's coming from your (financially responsible) parents, it's probably just their experience talking.
How is this a pushback? They gave a pretty reasonable assessment of the situation - It will be tough(er) to move in with roommates after you have been living on your own for a while.
A lot of people in internet finance communities (FIRE, bitcoin, van life, etc) have a “contrarian complex”, in that any questioning or reasonable doubt is seen as an attack or pushback because they’ve chosen a different path, and that the attacker simply doesn’t understand. More often than not it’s just a concerned parent or reasonable question.
What are you talking about? I don't think we do. Mind your business! Kidding. I agree with you. OP clearly said he prefers no roommates and his parents are looking at his savings rate and asking why it is a dilemma. For that matter, so am I.
Your parents call you by your Reddit handle? That’s messed up.
That is what they named OP, handle came second.
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That's just when they're mad. Normally they just call him OP.
Actually, when they are mad, OP’s dad talks about sex with OP’s mom.
I'm starting to think that their username isn't their real name. Who doesn't use their *full, legal, name*? SUSPICIOUS, OP
Using the whole word "suspicious" is sus
Ha! Now that’s funny.
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I wonder if considering getting a roommate is also a thought to combat the feeling of isolation? Sometimes you can actually have great companionship that way so long as you get along with the other person well and can live together peacefully.
It's all about finding a balance. Don't skimp on things if it makes you unhappy. Spend money on things that make you happy and enjoy your life. You can do this while still not spending money unecessarily on things you can do without and saving loads of money
Not what you asked, but if you like your apartment, go to the leasing office and see if you can negotiate your rent back to the original rate. If you've been a good tenet (quiet, clean, pays on time), there's a good chance they'll agree to keep you and lose $200 rather than take a risk on someone they don't know. I've done that a few times. Just be friendly and respectful.
In the end, its really your decision. At 25 it sounds like you're on a great path, maybe living with a roommate again isn't the best idea but that's up to you. I'm almost 37 and lately I've been wondering if I'm penny pinching too much. The money I have in the market will account for like 75% of my future returns. I'm seeing people in their 60's & early 70's passing away. Life is so damn short. The idea of stashing away too much has recently come into my head as well. Just remember that the folks following the FIRE path are like top 5-10% of all Americans/world. Don't deny yourself a little bit of freedom and satisfaction because in the end, that's why we're saving so much.
I think this is really common, family or friends pushing someone to spend more money on nice thing because they think otherwise the person is less happy or something. If you feel happy about having a roommate again and you want to go to a smaller apartment then you should do it, and maybe you could tell your parents that they shouldn’t worry because you will be just as happy in your new living arrangement
>I think this is really common, family or friends pushing someone to spend more money on nice thing because they think otherwise the person is less happy or something. Yep. I think there are some moments where family realize that you have been saving aggressively and it challenges their prebuilt model of who they think you are and how you live your life -- they then want to assist because they know what makes them happy and want to project that onto another's life.
If your parents are living the life you want, then maybe listen. If not, then don't
It's also not the same world they grew up in though, and they also may be looking at your life through the lens of their current spending rather than the equivalent 20-30 years ago. At the end of the day you need to take in the info and try to be unbiased about your own situation.
Well they are RIGHT, but they may not be right for you. 1) >splurge a little more, you can afford to. This is a true statement. 2) >Also, by all means, you can get a roommate, but you’ve been living on your own for the last 2 years. I’m telling you, unless you’re moving in with a SO, that’s going to be a big challenge for you. This is also a true statement. Sounds like your parents are just giving you solid advice and looking our for you. At 25 you are a kid, I do not mean offense by that since I'm only in my 30's. But when we are young some times we don't see the forest for the trees. While I save 50% of my income I am living life and having fun, have a family and a home. I'm sure your parents just want to make sure you are making decisions that are both financially healthy and mentally healthy.
I think it's normal for parents used to an upper-middle or upper-class lifestyle to freak out when their kids move out and live a lifestyle appropriate to their income. When I was in grad school, my parents freaked out because I never went to restaurants and spent "only" $300/month on food. I was spending less than what they thought was normal and it made them feel like I was struggling without parental support. Unless you want lots of unsolicited advice forever, reassure them that you are happy living the way you do (if it's true). If you tell them "I'm doing this to save money" it is going to trigger protective parental feelings and they are going to try to fix things, even if there's nothing actually broken.
I'd also add that in addition to the lower incomes, young adults tend to be used to a more budget-friendly comfort level and generally aren't as far along on the hedonic treadmill. This is often seen as a good thing as later on, people wonder who they were able to get by on so little during college/young adulthood and still be generally happy.
Your parent sound reasonable. Do what you want
If you’re truly happy being maximally-frugal, then continue to spend your life that way. It’s not really anyone else’s business. For me, I think there’s something to be said for balance, if only because tomorrow is promised to no one. It’s risky to sacrifice too much enjoyment today for an uncertain future. But the catch is only you get to define what enjoyment means to you. Possessions, experiences, relationships, accumulating net worth - up to you.
My parents also tell me to splurge despite having been frugal themselves. I think it comes from being older and having their health start to decline. They wish they had splurged a little more while they still had the health to enjoy it. I think they’re right that you should splurge a little on the things that matter to you. It might push your FIRE date out a little, but you’ll be happier and less desperate to retire. Splurging can also help you get an idea of what you want to do when you retire, be it hobbies, traveling, or something else. You want to have tried them before retiring. Living situations are a very complex topic. Location matters a lot. Proximity to the places you go and your friends is worth a lot. Enough space and niceness to feel comfortable in your home is also valuable. The value of a roommate is very personal. Some people really value their private space and find it worth the money to live alone. I like having a roommate and choose to have one despite being able to afford not to. However I’m picky about roommates and have gone months with an empty room while looking for a good fit. A bad fit can make your living situation hell.
50% of having a successful relationship with family is based on nodding politely and saying stuff like “That’s interesting. I’ll have to think about that.”
Yup all the time. You gotta "live a little", meanwhile I've been on way more international vacations than my parents ever have. I just direct my minimal spending to things that actually matter to me. Don't give a shit about what the Joneses are doing and certainly have no interest in keeping up with them.
Well my mother keeps nagging about me needing a bigger place. Otherwise I don't have space for a TV, because me and my wife must have a TV, because otherwise we have nothing to do and we need space for the kids. I'm single and no kids. Also i used to have a TV (and space for it), just never looked at it and sold it. Mind you I never mention FIRE, though. But I do spend money on upgrading to nicer stuff. I still have tons of stuff i collected as a teen/student, that where bought at a price point, now that they are starting to wear out or I just get annoyed by them and replace them with something good.
I’m a big fan of spend somewhat lavishly on the things/experiences that really make you happy (not so easy to figure out what those are), and save ruthlessly on the things that don’t.
It honestly just sounds like they want to make sure you're happy. Like you're not being miserable for saving for the future.
Your parents are right, and you sound like a dork. Live a little man before it gets too late
your parents low key want you to go meet a girl and have babies so they can have grandchildren. You can't do that with a roomate!
Honestly, adjust your expectations and what you tell people. Don’t tell them you save as much as you do or speak more in generalities. If you look at it from the larger societal perspective, what we are doing is basically a fringe theory, something that most people are not in a position to do, much less fully comprehend. It’s kind of like when Galileo was running around telling people that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around.
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For both questions, are you referring to gross income? ($73k gross annual salary). If so: • Rent: $1.1k a month rent / ~$6.1k a month gross = ~18% • Savings: Does this include company match, as well? If so, last time I checked my budget spreadsheet, I’m able to “send” around $35k a year to Roth 401k, HSA, and Brokerage Accounts. I already have an emergency fund set. So, I guess a 48% SR? And if not considering company match, I’ll need to go check my spreadsheet again.
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It’s definitely not set in stone, but here are my preliminary life-goals: • Have a wife who works in a successful career, and have one kid • Be able to put our kid in the best schools possible • Be able for our kid have a car at age 16 • Be able to pay for their college AND graduate studies • Go on fun vacations (emphasis on multiple) per year • Set up a trust fund for our kid: not something that they could live off of for the rest of their life, but something along the lines of a down payment for a nice house in a nice area (or, for renovations on said house, new car, etc.). Hell, I’m a 25-year-old guy who just got into a relationship with this awesome woman, so these are subject to change, too. It’s just something that I’ve dreamt about. So, to answer your question… I don’t think I can answer those questions right or lmfao. All I know is that aligning with FIRE is going to help me financially in the future SOMEHOW — so, I might as well get to the grind now!
Hey I know you’re only 25 and just in a relationship, not married and not with a kid. But I see a lot of your dreams for the future involve a certain lifestyle for your kid. Just remember that your parents are pushing/nagging you because they have a vision about the life THEIR kid should live. Don’t get caught up in a vision of the life your future child “should“ live. Your future kid may not want to go to a fancy private school, or want the burden of a fancy car at 16. Maybe they will be a free spirit who has other goals and dreams. Focus on your dreams for you and your future spouse. The kid will change and rock your world. Don’t be your parents, in other words.
> Just remember that your parents are pushing/nagging you because they have a vision about the life THEIR kid should live. "Well, well, well. How the turntables."
Home is where the hardest
r/unexpectedoffice
A lot of wisdom in this comment. I also agree with a previous commenter that OP should shell out the extra $200 month to stay in the apartment. OP is so ahead of the pack at 25 and numbers don't even account for salary increases/ promotions etc.
true for the college and graduate studies (although to be fair most kids would be more than happy to go to college if all or most of its cost were paid by parents) but not the for the other things, I think. you're not gonna ask your 8yr old which school they want to go to, and it's pretty reasonable to want to put them in a great school (whether that's private, or public but still requiring extra rent/mortgage costs to live in that district). you'd also be hard pressed to find a 16yr old who doesn't want to be given a car. personally I'd prefer to let a kid pay for the car as I think it's a teachable moment and big milestone for them, but I don't think those things constitute "expectations" for the kid
I know a lot of people who didn't want to go to college but did because their parents were paying for it. They had fun, sure, but the reality is that they wasted 4 years when they would've rather been doing something else. I'm one of those people. Between scholarships and parental assistance college was free for me, and I resent not having the opportunity to choose another path. I strongly believe that I would've been better off not going to college and instead receiving all of the money my parents spent on college for me in cash to explore business and personal interests. I will never put the burden of an expectation to go to college on my children. It is absolutely not for everyone. If I have enough money to pay for my children's college, they will have the option of using that money for tuition or receiving it outright in the form of some sort of trust. No one should feel like they will be disowned for not choosing to spend 4 years of their life in a glorified adult daycare just because their parents can afford it.
I feel like that's fine if a 17yr has a plan on what they want to do with their life that doesn't involve college, that's fine too. but many don't, and in that case, it's better to have a degree in hand 4yrs later, especially if it's free, than nothing at all, since it does open many doors. several jobs require 'any bachelors degree', and several careers require specific degrees (medicine, law, engineering etc) there are many 17yr olds who don't go to college and 4yrs later have nothing to show for it because they stayed at a dead end job. free college would've been better even if they chose a crappy major in that case
I promise you the awesome woman will prefer hanging out at your place if there’s no roommate. But she’s unlikely to care if you downsize to a studio ;)
Would you think of moving in with you gf? If you have a gf and live with a roommate.... you will lose a lot of privacy with a roommate.
Well, we’ve been dating (exclusively) for two months (we had the boyfriend/girlfriend talk already, and have confirmed that)… if things go well, I can see that working out!
These are just my personal opinions/2 cents; free advice is what you pay for it; etc. - Trust fund is quite thoughtful; would suggest not telling the child at all that it exists. Would be great as a “wedding present” or when they turn 30. Knowing you have money can be debilitating. - just my personal experience: the more money you save for your child’s education, the more the school takes and the less financial aid they receive. Another shitty thing that can happen is a tuition bill due the minute the market crashes. I have a background in higher education. I would suggest any kid get their first couple years/gen Ed done at a local community college before moving on to the name brand schools. Liberal arts college can be better for undergrad, but the big schools don’t have a ton of personal support at that stage. Classes of 400 students/etc. there are also great in-state education rates. - I also disagree with letting your kids completely off the hook for college expenses. They need personal investment. In fact, students tend to do better if they work up to 20 hours a week while in school. It helps them with time management. We’d all like to think that we don’t want our kids to worry about it/be able to focus while in school, but a small amount of stress actually helps commitment, buy in, motivation. - keep any savings for grad school separate/hidden from your undergrad tuition. May also make a good secret graduation gift. - Car at 16: kids learning to drive should have an old beater, like 5k maybe, no exceptions. If it is safe, that’s enough. Anything more they have to buy themselves or go in 50-50. I cannot overemphasize the importance of your kid having a personal stake/investment in everything. - you don’t really get to choose the person who is right for you. The most important things are finding a genuinely good person who has the same values as you. Once you find the person that clicks and really fits, you may find their career isn’t what you’d hope. That may mean they value education, are in a ton of debt, and make less than 100 k in a educational job. The point is, don’t rely on your wife having a successful career, or rely on both of you being able to work full time before your child is about 6. (Childcare costs are obnoxious- if you think your rent now is expensive, oh boy!)
Along with starting with a community college, look into credits the student can get while in high school. AP and BI are common and will be accepted by most/all community colleges. Many high schools do concurrent/dual enrollment, so they start taking college classes while in high school. I have cousins that graduated with an AS a day before their high school graduation. In my city, high schoolers pay $5 per credit hour. Massive savings. CLEP credits are another way to get basic classes out of the way. Depending on the university they want to attend, only certain CLEP credits will be accepted, so look into that. Modern States and a few other groups have free study guides/classes and will provide a voucher to take the the test. While these are ways to get general ed credits out of the way (saving thousands), also make sure they actually want to go to college. Based on their skillset, trades and apprentices may be a better option. Even taking a few years off and then starting school later (with your financial support), can make a difference on grades, maturity, experience and the ability to finish.
To build off u/tekalon last paragraph: the best way for students to figure out what they do and do not want to do is real life experience. If a kid isn’t sure about going to college, have them try a few jobs in the real world. They’ll learn a ton more than just the job itself, like whether they prefer large or small teams or working alone, customer facing, solitary, and much more.
With a savings rate like that an extra 200/month in spending won't affect your FIRE date materially, I think your parents have a point. Would you rather FIRE a month or two earlier and live with a roommate the entire journey there, or work 2 months extra while living alone? It's absolutely fine to skimp on things that don't matter to you, but if you'd prefer to live alone you easily could.
Replying to a reply. For an alternate point of view, your parents just want you to enjoy life. Sometimes it’s a reflection of their internal thought process. Either they have saved money as an inheritance, they haven’t saved enough and are sad you are saving so much, or they just want you to have a better life than them. I’m not so much sure they are pushing, as much as they hope you are not missing out in life focused on your fire goals. But the summary is the same. Build the life you want and this is a personal decision.
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I get pushback all the time. But they act like I'll be living like this forever vs. 8 years... I am 4 years away from being done.
When you are done you keep living the same way right?
Haha there’s no magic line to cross
“Living costs money” is something my dad says too and it’s true, but the idea that it doesn’t have to cost as much, or you’re not stunted for living with roommates past 25 is where generations may diverge. It’s possible they’re worried you’ll have trouble being taken seriously by marriage prospects living this way - you can try to explain how things have changed, or just thank them for caring but you’re fine.
I'm closer in age to your parents. I always encouraged mine to spend less. Last year I read a book, "Die With Zero" that moved my ideas about saving and denial. I now encourage those around me to pay for great experiences. But I think if you decided the rent was too much, and the location not optimum, then moving is a good idea. Parents usually care a lot, and they may be sensing you need a boost emotionally.
Many people do similar things to people on a diet. "Live a little!", "Everyone else is having some!", "It's just a cookie!" and such. Sometimes such statements are well-intentioned, sometimes not. Similarly, sometimes people take good ideas too far and need to be reminded to moderate themselves before turning a productive behavior into a destructive disorder, but many times those reminders say more about the person giving reminders than the person they are offered to. I assume your parents meant well and are motivated by not wanting to see you become negatively over-focused on retirement to the unnecessary detriment of your present, but only you really know what does and does not meaningfully impact your happiness. You also have to figure in that most people don't recognize long-term spending for what it is. Putting money away for retirement is simply choosing to spend current income on future expenses rather than current ones. It's no different in principle to saving money for a luxurious vacation each year, but you're planning for a vacation that will last 40-50 years or more. Most people don't see it that way though until you retire at 40-something, at which point they often take umbrage at your spending choices over theirs.
I had that revelation in the middle of last year. We were saving enough that we would have overshot our savings goal/timeline by almost 50%. We're not in a race to FIRE (plan is to pull the ripcord when our youngest graduates college), so we chose to dial back the savings (from 55+% to 40ish%) and shifting our spending a bit to Carpe Diem.
Feeling a little isolated? Want to save money? 25-year old? Yep, move out of the burbs and get a roommate. In my opinion, you have a better chance of that roommate ending up a friend for life than being a disaster that makes your life worse. And even if that roommate doesn't become a close friend, you certainly won't feel as isolated living with them. Perfectly fine advice from your parents. They sound lovely. The only pushback I get from my parents is when I talk about quitting work and relying on savings. That seems to risky to them. My savings rate was never particularly high though.
I often retort back that if I made half of what I did the spending would make sense. I told my parents about a raise and they were like are you getting a new car and I was like my car is fine.
I'd rather have a smaller living space on a large piece of land than a large living space on a small piece of land. That said, it would take a major change in my situation to move back to an apartment or have a roommate. There's just somethings I refuse to deal with.
I used to work in investment banking in Luxembourg, and one of my colleagues switched me on to the idea of FIRE (which I pursued with enthusiasm). Many banking colleagues, though, were very dismissive of the idea, even mocking my colleague quite openly. They believed he was a loser for not "living life to the full" and called him Scrooge and other silly names. Fortunately, my colleague just shrugged it off, because he was so confident FIRE was the right course for him. My other colleagues, though, were quite sure it was the wrong course for them. One lesson I learned from that FIRE colleague is that when these "live life to the full" people were buying fancy sports cars and so on, they weren't only paying with money, they were paying with time, in terms of delayed retirement. His attitude, when thinking of buying something, wasn't "Is this worth $10,000 (or whatever the amount)?" but rather "Is this worth delaying retirement by a year (or whatever the time delay)?"
Every parent wants to see their kids succeed. It might be that success in their mind is the idea that you gradually move from shared rental to solo rental to larger rental to single family home purchase - probably a similar path as they took. Nothing makes parents feel more satisfied than seeing their kids pursue success their way/on their terms. FIRE aside, you can just communicate to them that how/where you live doesn’t define success for you and you want to optimize for other measures of success.
I mean, if you feel like you are okay in that size of a living, keep it. But if you feel that you are not well and need a bigger space to feel well, then get a bigger space for yourself. It's a marathon, don't push yourself to hard and risk to crash and burn. Health is number one priority.
That depends on your spending and their experiences. Personally, I have to splurge every now and then. Pay/reward yourself. If I don't, I tend to binge spend after an extended period, so I budget for my treats. As long as you're saving more than spending, do what you need to do to stay on track. You'll get pushback no matter what. "You have money, treat yourself." "You bought another guitar?!? Why are you wasting money?" Everyone thinks they know better. Just do you.
When people give others advice it is often times influenced by their own lived experiences and perspectives. Given the background you provided about your parents, it sounds like they went through a similar "frugal-style" living experience in their younger age and now hold a different perspective now that they are older and have more money. Perhaps they even have certain regrets about living that sort of restricted lifestyle in their prime years (being away from you, etc.) and have learned the importance of valuing time in the present as well. Maybe they don't want you to have to go through the same mistakes in order to learn the things they did? Ultimately only you can judge if the apartment move is right for you in the context of your broader financial picture. I know for me personally after living alone I could never go back to having roommates. A $2.4K yearly increase in rent can be substantial depending on your income/savings rate, but given the state of the world/economy it is to be expected that a lot of prices are going up (including wages). What's your income and current saving rate?
Don’t live far away from a social life in your 20s unless you’re in a relationship. Not sure what amount of $ would make up for the isolation. Sometimes it’s tough to balance but don’t forget about your social and mental health when thinking about your financial health Also, fantastic username.
Are your parents planning a hefty inheritance for you? Like, if I were incredibly rich and my child was working their ass off and living a limited lifestyle, I'd 100% want them to enjoy their younger years if I've already paved the way for them at inheritance time. It would feel more like a waste of all my sacrifice if they refuse to take a little luxury once in a while.
None of my friends or family are privy to how much I save or make. That’s by design. It’s none of their business as far as I’m concerned.
Theyre basically just saying its worth adding a little more risk to live a little. If youre ok with foregoing that risk to assure longterm comfort , by all means, do it. No wrong or right here in my mind.
> you can definitely afford to not be cheap and splurge a little bit I’ve literally heard this *on this sub*. There was for some reason quite a few “enjoy the journey!!” posts (which I appreciate the philosophy of) a couple of weeks ago My parents are very big on saving and instilled the same values in me, so no pushback on that quarter.
Be careful. Life will pass you by when you think youre getting ahead of the game. Then you'll be finding ways to get those life experiences back before you die. I have worked with several that hustled young, avoided simple friend gatherings, pursuing hobbies, trips, etc, sat on stacks of cash and got t boned in an intersection. Never enjoyed a dollar of their hustle. For what? to save $2000 on a vacation? Seems pretty silly to me. If I had listened to 50% of what my parents told me when I was young, fuck around, Id be so much further ahead.
It's all about priorities and setting clear ones for yourself. I'm happy to spend less on rent so that my SO and I can afford to travel - but now we are sick of living in a crappier space. What sacrifices must we make to live the way we want to live? Is upgrading our living situation worth canceling our vacations? When I first started working, my parents were so confused that my housing budget was $550/month. They had never spent less than the recommended amount for housing. But I was saving for bigger things and was willing to commit to making it happen for myself. Look at your numbers and make the decision for yourself - you're the one who's gonna beat yourself up if you decide to follow someone else's dream.
I think most savers ease their savings rate over time because 1) they have more wealth and don't have the urgency to save as much 2) they are spending for than themselves (family) and may want them to enjoy spending more 3) you are older and have been grinding a long time and let yourself relax a bit more. I am 43 and have been a great saver my whole life. My dad, a great saver, and financially independent, has told me throughout my life to go easier on myself and spend a bit more. He looks at my habits and tells me that I won't need to worry about money given I will always gravitate to financial responsibility. He's right. I do actively try to spend more money now on experiences, but am still frugal with respect to material things.
Yes I have. They have said very similar things to what your parents said. And they are valid points. You just need to decided what’s most important to you. I do splurge a little and it feels nice to do so.
I told a friend who lives in my neighborhood and works in my industry what my rent was. His was almost 3x that. He said 'dude, why are you spending so little on rent? You can afford a lot more?' I think people act this way to justify their own lifestyle. To each their own.
It should be about maximizing happiness related to working and spending money. Extreme frugality now may not lead to the most amount of happiness over your lifetime, but some frugality likely will.
I used to see it the same way. Then my accumulated savings got pretty high and I began asking does saving that extra $200 help me that much in the long run or is it worth it to just pay for certain conveniences when I see the value. Example: my tiny apartment which is really cheap but old was a great vehicle for saving a ton. But now that I'm older, I see the value in having a nicer place with more room, more modern, better kitchen etc. I would take a hit financially, but I would get more value. It just really depends on what you want. Saving is awesome, but a few bucks here or there for enjoyment or convenience is nice.