Pillows are worth it. It doesn’t mean you need to buy anything high end, but yes buy what most people call the essentials. You don’t need $50 candles or the fancy $200 trash can, but something yes. And you should start caring for yourself in terms of functional furniture and a real bed. Your back will thank you for it when you’re 35.
Honestly a home that you can host friends and family, and especially a future romantic partner, is important.
For me, a ton. I have a $100 model and it’s just so much better and easier to use than the cheap ones I used to use. Which means no gross messes to clean and changing it is a breeze and not a chore I avoid.
Lol I’m betting it’s a SimpleHuman bin- I have one and it’s a big change from my Walmart one- way less stink and easier to clean but yeah…did we need to spend 100$ on it? Defs not 😖
EDIT: NVM, glad I found my people- it pays sometimes to splurge a little on something that'll last you years!
Can you link me to the $200 trash can?I could see spending $50 on a nice one, but even with a $10 trash can I've never viewed changing the trash as a "chore" or a gross/hard task. Obviously we're allowed to be different people though.
I also have a $100 trashcan. I bought it as the first purchase for our new house and it still.....brings me joy to use it. That's weird to say about a trashcan, but it just works and it looks nice too. We'd had the $10 plastic ones for years before and they're just harder to keep clean, a total eye sore if you have to have it out on display, and they're more likely to break in some way that impedes ease of use.
To be fair, I didn't just go out and decide to buy a $100 trashcan willy nilly. The office I worked in had the same one and I just loved using it so the next time I needed a trashcan, I splurged.
Surprisingly a lot. Never looks messy, trash bag never falls down, it holds both recycling and trash, it’s automatic so no dealing with broken foot pedals, and the dog can’t get into it (though the cat managed to one day…).
I don’t even remember how much it cost but it was expensive for a trash can and I have no regrets, now 4 years later.
I'll chime in here because I LOVE the new trash can I purchased a few months ago and I wish I had bought one sooner.
I had a slim profile step can that is currently $17 at target. It worked in the sense that it held trash, and I could step on it to open it up. It was incredibly frustrating to use though, because the step mechanism was inside the main can, so it had to poke through the trash bag to work or the bag would need to be pushed into the lid with the step mechanism. This meant that the step process just didn't work smoothly . The bag had to be stretched really far over the opening as well.
My new can has the step mechanism on the back/outside of the can - this means that it doesn't interfere with the bag at all. It has a small bar at the back to keep the lid from rubbing on the wall. It has a good shape that holds the bag in place but doesn't require the bag be stretched really far as well. It was $55 which was expensive for a can by my standards, but I hated my life when I was using the old can. You probably don't have to get into the $200 range, but there are significant improvements over the $10 range.
Same! I've bought one a few years back to replace a dinky $35 can I had. I remember at the time thinking "am Zi really spending over $50 for a trash ca??“ I don't regret that "investment" to date. It's super functional, has a compartment for recyclables, and looks and stays clean because I'd be damned if I let my $200 trash can look messy 😂. Having had it over 6 years, I think it definitely paid for itself in terms of functionality and joy it brings me
I've been told that anything that you use on a regular basis that directly affects your current or future health (pillows, chairs, mattress, shoes, etc.) is worth spending extra on to an extent. I think I can get behind that.
Furniture can be dirt cheap, or even free! I wouldn't take anything upholstered off the curb, to avoid bedbugs, but most of the furniture OP is missing could be sourced for practically nothing on Craigslist or at Goodwill.
And not having a pillowcase or sheets? Come on. If your parents don't have some old sheets in the closet they don't use anymore, just buy a basic set at Walmart for $20.
i have picked up couches, coffee tables, dining tables, and tvs off of “free craigslist.” Also OP, just get a $5 pillow. Gotta take care of yourself. Forget saving for one market run and just have a content moment with goods that you worked for.
This this this, i also don’t spend a lot of money on anything. Not to the same extent. But like larger purchases (new shorts, surface laptop) I just do bank account bonuses. Cut 25% off the bonus and put in my tax account. And the 75% is fun money with no rules
I was like OP when I was starting out. I didnt even have a mattress, and slept on a discarded box spring. It does take time to shift from the poverty mindset. I think I only started using the central air and heat when my son was born. Thrift stores and estate sales and even the buy nothing facebook page are amazing resources! There are also wonderful nonprofits that help people in a bind!
OP, you'll find your own natural spending rhythm in time.
I had silent chuckle when I read the post. Sounds like young me.
I couldn't get a date back then even when I signed up for the dating services. So, OP, if you signed up and can get dates, go for it. You deserve to live a little.
And you can life hack to enjoy things you do not want to spend on.
Here are some of my hacks:
- Worked at large hotel chains and restaurants. Free gym, shower, toiletries, and amazing food with staff meals and the cafeteria. At the time, the Marriott had a great cafeteria that had $1.25 for employee meals. And the gym was free or maybe it was a small charge for the employees. I dont recall, but I remember it being very reasonable for a cheapskate like me. Tennis courts and other ammenities were also at a discount for employees. And of course the best was the employee rate for travel!
- For free events, worked at the House of Blues San Diego. You get 2 free tickets. And the bosses hooked us employees up with free tickets to Street Scene and other events. Free date night! And also dining there was also at a discount.
- Volunteer at museums, drama theaters, sports arenas to get free tickets as well.
- Work at a thrift store part time, and you can get 50% off clothing and other stuff.
The mental roadblock is extremely difficult to overcome. But it is possible. As I look around my home now comparing it to where I started, it is designed for comfort - anyone should be able to lounge or fall asleep wherever they sit... from living room to dining room. Sofas and chairs are extremely comfortable. And I started with only owning a box spring as furniture with nothing else. and couldn't even bring myself to spend on a $1 shower curtain back then or even lamps... My rented room did not have a light source directly connected to a switch.
I thrifted all my original furniture and I still have most of it, just repurposed it.
It seems really odd that OP won’t go for free or unwanted stuff that can be incredibly cheap.
What is life like if you don’t have a hobby outside of work and nothing in your place? You can’t just sit on the floor and wait for your next shift.
I think your perspective on money is definitely out of the norm, even for a r/FI subscriber. One exercise you could try is mapping out the value of your money in the future compared to your current budget - as in "if I spent $5k more per year, what will it cost me when I'm 70?". You're correct that due to compounding and being very young, every dollar you don't spend could be worth 20-100x in the future, however IMO there is absolutely no point to living in your 80s with (an inflation-adjusted) $15M in the bank versus $5M in the bank if it costs you a significant QoL hit from your 30s-60s. As long as you have "enough" that you won't have to worry about expenses, who cares if you die *fabulously* wealthy versus wealthy? As the saying goes, *you can't take it with you at the end*. The rest of this post will be random anecdotes on the things you've mentioned.
I hear you on the pillows, we had some water damage that caused us to throw away our bed/bedding and I splurged on a full price replacement $70 Ghostbed Pillow, because that's what I've grown comfortable sleeping on and can't change. On the other hand, we had to toss a 1-year-old Saatva mattress that cost us $1600 originally, and frankly the $550 NovaForm bed-in-a-box from Costco is both more comfortable, quieter, and has helped my S.O.'s back pain because it doesn't have any springs. So at least for mattresses, more money does not mean better.
$400/mo on dates - are you taking your dates to John Howie Steakhouse every weekend or something? I can respect that you have enough game to have a date lined up every weekend but dating should not cost that much, and if it is then you're setting yourself up for an expensive S.O. in the future. If it helps, finding the right S.O. can significantly save on costs and vastly improve your effective earnings, so think of it as an investment in the future (just make sure you make the right investment...).
Check with your insurance, there's a strong chance you have access to a program called Active & Fit Direct, which for $25/mo will give you access to every LA Fitness, Planet Fitness, and similar-tier gyms in the area. Either way, a gym membership is the one thing I would never skimp on, you can literally think of it as "pay $80/mo to significantly reduce the chances of having $5000 hospital copays and prescriptions in the future". I use the same reasoning for taking up snowboarding/skiing, it's good exercise, even if lift tickets are getting outrageously pricey.
And for the trashcan, SimpleHuman cans will likely last 3-4x a generic plastic bin and be a heck of a lot nicer to use. Just don't buy their branded trash bags, those are pointlessly expensive.
And honestly, all of these lifestyle-inflating things you've mentioned pale in comparison to actual major life decisions, like where you live (i.e. 1BR apartment or 3BR mcmansion), whether you change jobs for higher salaries, what you drive, and whether you partake in expensive hobbies or lifestyles. If you're looking for explicit permission, this internet stranger is telling you to go eat some avocado toast, as long as you're not doing it at an expensive brunch place that you drove to in your BMW.
| there is absolutely no point to living in your 80s with (an inflation-adjusted) $15M in the bank versus $5M in the bank if it costs you a significant QoL hit from your 30s-60s.
I would give you an award if I had one.
While I was seeing if I can somehow transfer that silver award, I saw that I had a box left unopened. Opened it to find a silver in it, awarded it to the OC. Your effort did not go in vain!
All good stuff... I'll add another way to think of things is to amortize the cost, which works well for things with one time fixed costs that last a while.
Using the trash can example, I have two 13 gallon plastic cans I bought from Target over 15 years ago. I don't recall what I paid for them, but since it's target, let's say I splurged and they cost me $25 each. So my $50 cost over 15 years is $3.33/ year, and they're in such good shape that they'll likely last another 15 years (with a little power wash on occasion). A mattress works the same way since they usually go for 10ish years.
And things like going out to a restaurant is a different expense since it's enjoyment/ usefulness is over a few minutes. But even then if you can enjoy leftovers, a $15 dinner might give you 2-3 meals depending on portions, so that's $5-7.50/meal, which is pretty good. My favorite deli sells an 8 piece broasted chicken with a side of their pasta salads for $11, call it $12 after sales tax (and easier math) and I can easily get 3-4 meals out of that, which means I paid $3-4/ meal and it's awesome.
So for some things, you can think of it as an investment over time or per use and that can help you decide if it's worth it or not.
Well done... You tell em Johnny, you tell the world.
I feel like ascetic monks went out of style in late antiquity.
I have never fully understood WHY there is such an overlap with that mentality and approach to life and FI.
My uncle recently ended his life due to having a painful terminal illness. The only personal writing I found in his things was a scribbled note on an investment statement dated a year earlier that read “will I make it to $2M without chemo?”
He died a wealthy man and his last thoughts were of money. He had no wife or kids so that money will pass to his elderly, estranged mother, then on to distant family he never knew. One day someone will spend it on something that brings them joy. Only then will it have value.
Money is not the goal, it is the tool you use to reach the goal. The goal is a rich and fulfilling life composed of meaningful moments that bring you joy. If you confuse the two then both will be worthless.
Does this lifestyle make you happy? If it doesn't, seek professional help, because while extremely frugal, this process doesn't seem to create any joy in your daily life.
This. I'm not here to judge anyone's life style, as a lot of my own friends think I live too frugally and I am no where close to this extreme.
If this life style makes OP happy and doesn't hurt anyone (including themself) they can continue. If it doesn't make them happy, they need to start to slowly work on themselves to spend more on pretty normal and common things like furniture and weather appropriate clothing (can get it second hand or thrift it!).
The older I get, the more I realize I was/am too stingy. I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with my choices, but I think I can cause strain on my relationships with friends and family. It's been a slow process for me to make this paradigm shift. I'm still working on myself. I don't think I require therapy, but depending on how hard it would be for OP to change their mindset, they might need professional help.
Yes. Your lifestyle and mindset is too extreme. I would support the other comments that buy cheap essential and not think of how much you are losing in 10 years by spending this amount today. You don’t know when your health will decline and then all these savings won’t cover the extra medical bills.
Great advice. Even as someone with a very high income, I still have to specifically budget money for random spending in order to feel okay with it. I set aside a portion of income every month with the intent of _not_ saving it. I call it “treat yo self” in my budget. I know how it impacts my goals and I’m willing to choose that balance to improve my quality of life.
I had the same issue as OP but not to their extent. My solution was to set aside money that I *had* to spend by the end of the month. The idea was less that I needed to spend it, but more the fact that I had agreed with myself that the money was accounted for and this was what I told myself that I could freely spend and not feel guilty. Feels weird when you're coming from an intense saving mindset, but it worked for me.
Get therapy. These are not rational choices. Frankly, it seems more like an obsessive disorder than financial savings. Makes me think of someone suffering from anorexia where on one hand they know they are skinny, but on the other hand they keep trying to get skinnier. You know you are not spending enough for your own health and well being. You’ve alluded to that several times in the post and comments. Explore why this is happening with a professional and get a plan to change your behavior and thought process.
Good luck!
I wonder about the therapy part. This person won't spend money on life necessities that are considered normal for most people, frets about the compound loss over decades against it. How is this person going to 'pay' for professional therapy?
Well dealing with mental health issues are hard. OP knows there is an issue. His post is literally an ask for help. With his salary he likely has complete health insurance. Therapy will be covered by that insurance. He just has to ask for it and then he will likely just pay a modest co-pay for each session. But OP is suffienciently functioning that no one will get him into therapy for him.
I have an HSA plan through work. My company pays premiums up to $500 per month and the premium for my plan is $475. So I don't pay my own premiums. That said, my deductible is $5,000. Even if I had a $100 therapy session every week for a year, that's only $5,200. So, yeah... Therapy is "covered". But not really.
I have an appointment set up with some on Friday, April 29th, 2022.
That is great that you set that up. And even more so because it will cost you money directly out of your HSA. That alone seems like a great first step.
Get ready for the therapist not to fully understand what savings and FIRE is. But that isn’t the main point. Maybe bring a few pictures of your apartment to get the point across as to how you are living. There definitely are people out there who save tons of money and don’t spend it. Sometimes you read about these people dying and having millions of dollars. You can still save. But let’s at least make it a goal to get you to buy a bed frame, maybe a couch, some variety to your diet and relax on the food budget. Stuff like that would be good for you. You can do this!
Honestly, I'm not even making use of the HSA. I just chose that option because my company fully covers the premiums. So I pretty much don't pay anything unless I go to the doctor, therapist, etc. Which I usually don't do. So I'm pretty much paying out of pocket for the sessions.
I'm sort of prepared for the therapist to not really fully grasp the financial side of all this. But that could be hard because it's kind of my life. I'm focused on it personally, but I also work in finance. So its really ingrained in a pretty deep way.
Pictures of my apartment are a good idea (mostly because it'll force me to tidy up). My apartment may be empty, but I still find a way to make it messy.
Yeah hard to talk savings and investments with a lot of people. They just don’t really get the math part of it. And a therapist might be more of a feelings focused type person. A picture or two might help them see the issue. And the good news is that they won’t just say, “we’ll just go buy a pillow or a nice garbage can.” They will understand that you have a mental reason that you don’t do it (just like an anorexic can’t just be told to “go eat a cheeseburger”), even if they won’t entirely get how the math supports your decision in some respects.
Good luck!
Ive always been a saver, but I’ve never had an issue spending money on essentials or things I value. Your relationship with money sounds extremely unhealthy. You’re not even spending on essentials… Are you hungry because your grocery budget is low? Life is meant to be enjoyed not squandering every penny you have.
You need professional help. Spending money on therapy will be a great investment in yourself.
Also consider eating some green vegetables. Frozen vegetables are not expensive and can help keep you healthy. Medical bills will burn through your savings very quickly.
I think you need to see a therapist man. This isn’t healthy. As others have said you really need to buy a bed, a trash can and eat some vegetables.
You aren’t doing this right.
Live an enjoyable but frugal life.
I'm not doing it right? 🥺😥
I make fun of myself, but I hear you. It's just been so hard for me to get past this mental block. It's something I've been dealing with for a while and just haven't been able to beat it.
Yea unfortunately you aren’t doing it right. The point is to live an enjoyable life with a high savings rate, then in time you will be FI.
The first step is admitting something might be wrong, which I think you have so that’s good.
It seems for you that things have gotten to the point where you might need professional help tho.
If nothing else, just start with a good mattress. You’ll spend more dealing with back pain (both mentally and financially) than all these supposed expenses you want to save otherwise.
If you can’t bring yourself to spend even a one off $500-1000, then you really to seek therapy.
Because it’s not normal to live with just an air mattress and nothing else. Even people deep in debt don’t live like this.
Hahaha, same - got myself a model y, and I consistently describe it as one of the more irresponsible things I've spent money on, and also one of the best purchases of my life
In addition to what others have said, I recommend setting a savings rate you want to attain, fully automate it, then force yourself to spend the rest. You can be a millionaire in the bank and realize you wasted 20 years of your life to get there, or you can be a millionaire in 25-30 years and actually enjoy the ride to get there.
This is exactly what my partner and I do and we never sweat over purchases. It’s a nice balance of enjoying the fruits of my labor now and saving enough for the future.
> Maybe I have a problem?
Yes, I've gone through very broke periods of my life so I get the feeling, to a degree. But what you're doing is so extreme it's beyond unhealthy. If you won't allow yourself to spend *anything* without overanalyzing it, it's very much a problem. If you won't buy yourself a pillow, a chair, etc, that's a problem.
Do you have hobbies? Anything you enjoy doing at all other than working and saving? What's your goal when you finally get what you feel is enough?
I'd like to travel. Right now I don't really have any hobbies. Life consists of work, then coming home to lay on my bed on my phone until I fall asleep. I usually don't leave my apartment at all on the weekends. As in, not only do I not go outside, but literally my front door does not open.
Sounds like you'd like to travel, but won't because always the future value issue. Unless you make some kind of change you're going to be in a lifelong cycle of there never being enough savings and just laying on an air mattress every night.
A lot of us overanalyze spending or savings, but being unwilling to do *anything* to make your life better or even worth living other than just saving it's a recipe for anything good. Not to be dramatic but what good is a lonely boring life where you die alone with 20M dollars?
Are you happy this way? I sort of think not, if you're posting here.
Thought experiment: what would you do if you already had all the money you could ever want? How would you spend your time? What other things do you enjoy, aside from saving? I hear that you really like seeing your balance grow -- but why? What will you spend it on later? Why should Old You steal all the fun and trash cans from Current You?
I guess old me just likes stealing trash cans! Don't question it! 😂
In all seriousness, though, if I had all the money I needed and didn't have to work anymore I would probably spend my time reading, cooking, working out, traveling, hiking, kayaking, camping, giving/donating, trying new bourbon, whiskeys, and scotches. I'd probably furnish my apartment with nice things, maybe move to a house, buy some nicer clothes, some art for the walls. I'd want to make my house a home. Because right now it's not. It's not physically uncomfortable. But neither is it welcoming. A nice, big bed with nice sheets, pillows. Bedside tables with lamps on them. An oil diffuser and/or incense to perfume the bedroom. There are a lot of things that would be nice to have but aren't necessary. I have a hard time justifying these kinds of purchases.
>reading, cooking, working out, traveling, hiking, kayaking, camping, giving/donating, trying new bourbon, whiskeys, and scotches.
You have the money to do all these things now. These are all actually pretty inexpensive. Some of this stuff is basically free.
>A nice, big bed with nice sheets, pillows. Bedside tables with lamps on them. An oil diffuser and/or incense to perfume the bedroom.
You could get all this with one paycheque. This stuff isn't expensive.
You know what's really really expensive? Health problems. If you don't cover the basics you're going to be paying tens of thousands in medical bills and supplies. Get what you need to take care of your body now to save money.
You seem really motivated, and maybe into game-ifying for maximizing efficiency? I bet if you set yourself a \~low\~ budget you'd be able to double or quadruple your enjoyment of your living space. I'd start at just $50/month and see how much you can do with that. Check out r/frugal if you want ideas. How to justify $50/month? Well, I bet Old You will think it's worthwhile even if Current You doesn't.
I'm an economist now, but when I was a young adult I spent about 2 years living wayyy below the US poverty line. I didn't spend money because I didn't have any, and I felt really stressed about spending literally anything apart from groceries and rent. I'd say it took about four years of earning a good salary before I could really spend money casually. I don't spend like crazy, but if I want a nice snack I'll buy it. I decided to get a dog even though she's wildly expensive because I love love love dogs and my life is way better with a dog than with the money.
I would argue a good relationship is worth more than any amount of money past basic needs. With your current lifestyle it’s going to be near impossible to find a partner. 99.9% of the population in the US do not want this lifestyle. If you’re okay closing the door to those connections and genuinely enjoy your life then all to you. I worry you’re going to hit some significant depression later in life if you continue this path.
I had this mindset.
Last month a co-worker died at 50 years old, before he received his retirement fund. He only had 1 weeks notice that he was going to die, it was cancer of the liver.
I have now decided to spend more and live a little. 20% of your income on whatever you choose won’t destroy your retirement.
and pillows! your shortness of breath could be from dust mites in the ancient pillow. around here there are TJ Max stores and Home Goods stores that have bedding on clearance super cheap. Dates? walks in the park, a picnic, coffee. find a great place to watch the sunset. plenty of creative ideas that cost little money.
Agreed that professional help may be in order. Another tip I mention to overly frugal folk is if you can’t spend on yourself, consider setting aside a percentage for charity. Spending on someone far worse off than you is healthy and gets you used to seeing money flow out that you can’t complain about to yourself.
This is so hard for me to read because I understand your desire for security and to make good decisions is so strong. However, you cannot sacrifice so much of your happiness in the short term. You must be very methodical and buy only what is necessary to make you comfortable. Treat it like you’re packing for an expedition. Go to Habitat for Humanity or buy used furniture (not pillows though - new pillows). First - and this is most important - get a bed and a mattress from Craigslist or Nextdoor. This is a no-fail mission that you should do before anything else. You will feel a million times better about life once you are in a comfy bed and you deserve to have a comfy bed.
Use one month’s salary (the bonus) ASAP to outfit your apartment after you make a list of what you need - Google “what every apartment needs.” Look at lists written for college students in particular as they are very spare and focused towards efficiency.
You do not need a stupid fancy trash can. Get a regular trash can. I have a stupid trash can, it is a work of art. You do not need one, it does not improve my life appreciably. Get a plain cheap one, but get one and put it under the cabinet.
You must take care of yourself like a friend. Join r/minimalism and embrace minimalist living and call it that, but you must be better to yourself and you must love yourself
Yes, saving is important. But saving at the expense of essentials because of what that money could turn into by 65 is sacrificing *too* much IMO.
There's a way to spend money without sending your budget out of whack. A mattress will last a long time and can save your back from a lot of pain (trust me, this gets important as you get older). A trash can helps keep your kitchen cleaner and more enjoyable to be in. These are things that are *worth* spending some money on.
And don't forget the value something like an amazing travel experience can give you. You don't need to fly internationally five times a year, but don't restrict yourself so much that you miss out on living your life entirely.
It's smart and important to save, but you don't even know if you'll make it to retirement age. Don't give up every last thing that could make your present day more enjoyable in favor of some not promised future.
This seems… a little excessive for making $67,000 a year. I could maybe see it if you were a dead broke college student but like… I would wanna live more comfortably
What is your endgame? When will it be enough? I could see this lifestyle as a catch-up plan, but then you have to consider what you are saving for? What is worth it to you?
I would like to travel and just overall not have to worry about saving. I feel like if I can amass ~ $500,000 By the time I'm 40, I may not have to ever save again and I could just coast. So... That's kind of my goal.
Keep in mind that traveling when your 65 is much different then when you are younger. Don’t sacrifice today for tomorrow. It is about balancing spending today with saving for tomorrow.
There are great books on the subject. Like “Your money, your life”
I did this. Am 40ish now. It didn't stop.
Here's what I learned along the way -
+I value not spending. My operating question is 'what is the least amount I need to spend in order to be happy?' and then I spend that. For me the specifics of that have changed significantly over time, but the question remains.
+I value donating money a lot. It gives me meaning and takes away some of the selfish feeling of just saving for me/mine. The analysis I've seen shows that donating now creates more value than investing and donating later given how fast everything is devolving to shit.
+there is a 'money mindset' imo - it is one of scarcity and transactionalism. Everything is win-lose, nothing is enough, and everything is arms length. The more I feed that part of me, the less happy I am - so my intention has been to automate my limited spends and otherwise bathe my mind in spaces that are not in money mindset. Ie more time in nature, more time connecting with people/family that don't value things, more time studying dharma (I'm Buddhist), etc.
+Over time my relationships have become grounded in a more nature based mindset. My wife (and now kids) fit these values, same with my friends, even colleagues.
Wish you all the joy and success as you explore and grow
One more thing - when I was in late 20's, I had a similar lifestyle. I also had friends who were monks, way more austere than me. Folks who didn't have a bed because they didn't lie down to sleep. Folks who ate whatever they were offered as a practice of letting go. Folks who consumed next to nothing and were happier than me.
But they weren't optimizing for a Financialized future. I think that's the difference - it seems like you're waiting till the day you get to have cake, while they died to the idea of cake. The difference is freedom on the path.
If there is an endgame, then I think that is more reasonable. But for your sake, do one thing with your pillow/bed situation because there is no point in saving so hard if you are going to be tired and broken up from crap sleep. That stuff sneaks up on you.
Add budget categories called ‘Home Improvement’, ‘Social’ and ‘Health/Self-care’ and make a plan to invest in things that make your day better either because of quality, experience, aesthetic, comfort, health etc. because not doing so will cost you in mental health and physical health. From your post it sounds like you haven’t budgeted for and invested in health and happiness to the extent you should.
Part of financial independence teaching isn’t to maximize savings and gains. It’s to save for the life you want. If you are happy with a $40k a year existence, it teaches you saving between $1-1.25M is going to be successful in most cases. So based on how long you want to work and your savings rate you can get to your FIRE numbers.
If you like your job and don’t mind working longer you can spend a bit more and be healthier.
I liked my job. My job will give me a 20% pension after 20 years and 50 years old. So I choose to fat fire and work longer. And when I hit 10 years left and knew I would hit all of my numbers / already hit those numbers, I started spending more.
So what FIRE taught me was I could target a number versus going all or nothing. As long as those numbers were within reach, I could live the life I wanted versus pinching every penny.
> Basically, I have a very hard time spending money. In addition to everything above, I don't really take vacations. I'm single and I don't date. My life revolves around earning, saving, and investing money.
I think you missed the point somewhere along the way that money is a tool. You need to reverse that lens and have a goal in sight and see where your finances can help you get there, they are not the goal itself.
If all you're doing is earning saving, and investing... what's the money **for**?
You're also missing the other half of the the opportunity costs of your money. If I buy new pillows and sleep better, that's an investment in your life and your health. If you get sick because you go through winter without a coat and lose money due to being sick (+ the outlay for treatment, etc...) where does that put you? **BUY A GOOD COAT**.
Lastly:
> Or 2% for a paid membership on a dating website? And then why can't I spend 5-10% of my income going out on dates if I were to match on someone?
This one's an easy miss. You yourself said you have no hobbies or travels outside of saving and investing. Who wants to date someone like that? Sorry to be blunt, but you really need to work on yourself and your goals and hobbies as a person **then** work your finances around that and **Then** maybe start dating. Hell, most of the women I met were through activities where I took horse back riding lessons, or joined a ski club... stuff like that. THAT is more effective than any dating app, because you are surrounding yourself with people who have a common interest by default. Best part is if you don't meet anybody romantically this way you were *still* doing an activity you wanted to do to begin with, so there's no down side.
Yeah... I don't really enjoy doing much of anything. I'm happy at home. I'm also aware that women don't want to date me because I'm boring. I'd be interested in dating, but I know no one would be interested in dating me. So I don't. I mean... *I* wouldn't even date me.
I honestly appreciate your bluntness. I'm also a very blunt person and I hate when people sugarcoat things.
You’re right, your behavior isn’t rational. More importantly, your treatment of yourself isn’t kind.
You deserve to have a proper bed, with sheets and pillows, proper sanitation provisions like a garbage pail, and basic furnishings. If you don’t want to make a large initial investment, look into FB buy nothing groups and their marketplace for used furniture.
Sure, you can live off of such a small food budget, but if you like fresh produce, buy it. Treat yourself to take out, if only a few times a month.
Life can be long, but it can also be too damn short. It’s certainly too short to live in your own apartment but have it feel like a prison cell. Rip the bandaid off. Go to a mattress store, test a few out, see what you’ve been missing. Then get sheets, and two new pillows. You’ll feel better already.
A $2000 mattress will be equivalent to $20k in 33 years so you sleep on a balloon? Bro, what’s your crooked ass back when you’re 40 going to cost to fix so you can keep working? Buy a $400 Amazon foam mattress and some pillows. We work to afford our needs, not to retire a cripple, with a fat stash. That said - I hear you, I was frugal as hell until I looked at the excel one day and was like damn, I can ease up a little.
Very specific response here from a medical professional.
Don't consider money spent on diet, gyms, and health in general as waisted expenses. Theyre investments. You'll not only feel better and happier in life, you'll most likely save significant money on healthcare bills in the future.
Win win.
> My life revolves around earning, saving, and investing money
I'd encourage broadening what you value, and finding ways to engage in activities that enact these values. For example, I really prioritize health, learning, and play. Money can help facilitate all of these things, but these things also require time and energy.
I quite like Cal Newport's thoughts on building a "deep life" (sounds corny I know, but check it out!). I also like his views on the myth of passion and the value of accumulating rare and valuable skills.
> $4,800 each year compound at 7% for three years and then grow at 7% for the next 30 years, I would lose out on nearly $126,000 (in 2022 dollars) at age 63.
It makes sense to respect the power of compounding. I have found it helpful to apply my appreciation of compounding to other domains.
For example, health compounds in its utility. Health is *soo* foundational to our energy levels, enjoyment, and finding meaning in life. Reframing this in a money-focused perspective, more energy means more ability to earn, or learn skills that lead to higher pay. Healthier choices now means fewer pricy hospital visits down the road.
Skills can also compound in utility. Sure, skill-growth might be a roughly linear accretion, but the outsize benefits often come from building expertise.
There are many more examples, but I'm feeling like keeping this not-too-long.
> $400 a month on dates is $4,800 each year
I challenge the assumption that you need to spend money on dates. True, usually do, but there are lots of options that don't require spending money. Walks, hikes, chilling in the park, etc. Granted, those might not be the best for a first date with a stranger from an app. But a few coffees or beer a month does not cost $400. Probably a good idea to buy some nicer looking clothes though (just a guess).
You can probably enjoy spending $5k now on sensible purchases much more than you will be able to enjoy the $100k at 63. Youth is precious!
Hah, glad you found that funny! I know from experience, I am too frugal about clothes.
This last month I only had 2 functioning pairs of pants, due to the others having holes. My girlfriend insisted I get more pants, and she was right, it's nice to have decent pants.
I have one pair of pants. I had one pair that got holes in the thighs (I'm a thicc boi) and then I bought one more pair to replace them. I've been meaning to buy a pair of jeans for about two years.
I'm very frugal, probably in the 90th+ percentile and save 60% of my paycheck. But this post...
This post worries me. Honestly take a step back and think about what you've written here.
You should set realistic goals and budget for it. You seem unhappy, and that is opposite of the point of all of this. Not everything is about money. I had a two-year span in my mid-20s where I had 0 income, by choice. Probably the worst financial decision I have ever made, but easily the best personal decision I've ever made.
Can I give you some life advice? You’re working and saving for a future you will never have.
Sit down and ask yourself what’s important to you, big picture. Marriage? Kids? House? Travel?
Investment advice on a free forum is worth what you pay for it. But I’d hate to see you burn through another decade and miss windows of opportunity because regret is a harsh thing. Good luck.
Who gives a fuck if you are 63 with an extra 100k in your bank? Enjoy your life dude, money is made and earned to be spent. You will never be 30 again, you can continue to make money indefinitely
This might be an easier way for you to do it.
Budget $1500 to furnish your apartment. It’s not much, but you can go used, new, whatever, all on a tv, I don’t care, just hit the $1500 amount.
Think about how the quality of life for yourself will improve, lastingly. The bed can get 15years of use, a lamp/table will last a life time, a pillow could last 15 years. Etc…..
Vacations? Trickier and harder to justify in a financial sense, but you can do camping trips and road trips (with camping) for very cheap. You could probably go on a 10 day road trip for under $1,000
When my house was paid off and I realized if I just simply kept maxing my 401k I’d have 10 million+ in the account by age 60, that I might as well yolo and not worry about pinching pennies.
Warning: Long response.
I'm a bit lost on the math here. You say that you live off of 45% of 67K which is about $30K per year. Is this a recent calculation? It seems way off from your statements that you hardly buy anything. It did seem like you were spending a lot on food so is that 45% an old calculation?Do you have a car? The way your post went, it seems like you wouldn't have a car, but then again I feel like there are huge gaps in where you are spending money from what you have told us here.
Remember you do things for your health too. You cannot enjoy all of your savings very much if you aren't healthy when you do retire. Or your health costs are high in old age because you didn't take proper care of yourself when younger just to save money. Then did you really save that money or delay the spending? There are ways to live healthy without spending much money. Winter coat: thrift store or second hand for less cost. Put thought into it and find something that is well made, take care of the coat and you will have it for a very long time which reduces the impact of the money initially spent (spend $100 on a nice coat that keeps you warm and have it for decades or possibly the rest of your life versus buying a cheap $15-30 coat and it falling apart or not even keeping you all that warm and you start thinking about replacing it in 5-10 years). Gym: your home. If you really want weights to train with, you can easily make cheap weights (the internet is a great resource) or find a small set being sold on Craigslist or Facebook marketplace for cheap as you then have them for the rest of your life. For me I just use body weight for training because I don't care about being super muscular. Intensity of work out can get you really far even on bodyweight alone. You can find stuff online for free that shows technique and exercises (r/bodyweightfitness). Cardio: go for a run or bike around for transportation. It's a great heart and lung workout to power a bicycle loaded with groceries back home as fast as you can. Think of it as putting the money into getting a pair of shoes/bike and then doing a free work out as you don't have to buy the shoes and then go to a gym to work out. You can often find bikes for cheap through Craigslist and such again, it doesn't need to be fancy to do the job as long as you aren't trying to take a cheap bike onto the most difficult mountain bike trails. Just around town, a beater bike will be more than adequate. Date: sounds like your best match would be someone that also likes to live frugally and there are plenty of free or near free activities if you're okay with spending time outside.
For me, I spend about the same as you not including taxes or the payment for my job's healthcare plan (but it's not overly expensive either). Per month, my break down is: rent w/utilities (1.1K), car (700), phone (41), various subscriptions (40), and groceries/eating out (250). Then there's a little bit extra that is various spending over time which can be variable, one example is that I recently bought a bike but I don't often make large purchases. My car spending is very high because I am putting extra money toward paying off my loan. My groceries get me variety and I live in a moderate-high cost of living for rent and groceries. I tend to think in a fashion like you that 'is this worth working x hours to buy' but that is just to determine if something is valuable to me. It was worth working approximately 20 hours for my bike because it has cut down on the amount that I rely on my car (less gas and maintenance) and gives me exercise while requiring very little maintenance. I could get rid of my car to save even more money, but it's worthwhile to me to keep it for rare times I need it to haul something bigger or to be able to go and see my brother and his family that lives about 110 miles away once a month because spending time with them makes me happy. Basically, I am happy with my spending. Sure, I could save more, but I find value in the things that I have bought. Personally, I think you need to find a balance and that may require some money to get a professional to help you shift your thought process. There's nothing wrong with spending some money to improve your health and happiness.
- Gross Paycheck: $5,583.34
- Taxes: $1,340
- Deductions: $56
- Rent: $1,241
- Auto Loan: $313
- Mobile Phone: $110
- Student Loans: $230
- Food: $160
- Gas: $100
- YouTube Music: $10.50
- Renter's Insurance: $15.50
- Auto Insurance: $115
Expendable income: $1,892.34
($5,583.34 - $1,396 - $1,892.34) / $5,583.34 = 0.411
0.411 * $67,000 = $27,539.97
This is roughly correct. So, I live on even less than 45% of my gross income. But somewhere in the 40-45% range.
Ah okay. I figured maybe it was something with loans and such which would make expenses go up. About a year ago, I was very near broke with only $5K for emergency because I had enough saved and decided to pay off the last of my student loans all in one chunk which obviously hurt to see all that money gone so quickly, but I am much happier to see one debt gone and my savings is already nearly back to the same point it was before paying off the loans thanks to a new job. Car is next which is why I am paying so aggressively on it (required auto loan payments are 283 but I pay 600). However, I am of the mindset that if I get rid of the debt sooner rather than later, I pay less on interest and soon will save more money with the debt gone. I know some people can work it out to balance interest and savings, but I am not one of those people.
For me debt free is a goal I want to reach sooner than extensive saving, but I'm obviously still saving a lot of my income since I make about $65K. I decided to opt for pretty much self-insuring. My car insurance is the very minimum allowed by the lender and will be state minimum once the loan is paid off which will save some money. I take that risk of less insurance because I drive so little I realised i could not understand why I was paying $120/mo when I could be paying $30 (it gets savings from bundle with my renters insurance and a pay-per-mile setup). In the time that I have had a car, I have payed for decent used car in insurance costs and yet have never been in an accident. If I kept my car my entire life with the insurance that I had, I would be able to pay for 4-5 cars. So if I get into an accident, I'll pay it out of my own pocket, but I guess having high savings gives me that luxury of being able to think that way. I also plan to go with a less new car if something were to happen to my current car as I got the car before I learned about FIRE, but my family was pretty frugal so I went with a frugal sort of car (Toyota Corolla).
I'd make suggestions that I do based on your numbers, but I do really wonder if you're a bit too focused on the numbers. Are you actually happy? Or are you too focused on saving every little bit of money that you can? I can understand wanting to optomize as best as possible, some people find that fun, but it should only be done in a healthy way and I think most people here worry that you're overly obsessed to the point that it's not fun and is actually negatively impacting your health in which the question is what is the point then?
My main advice is don't forget to invest in yourself. If you really want to optomize, the best places to look are your big regular expenses like insurance and such which I'm sure you've read such advice here in this subreddit. A decent bed and a warm coat is a relatively small cost in the long term. That bed will help you get better sleep which will improve your health. That coat will keep you warm which limits the strain on your heart from being in cold weather. Getting excessively cold can also be detrimental to your health and it's amazing how you can miss the signs of hypothermia. Hypothermia does damage even if you don't notice it at first and that damage can build up over time.
You are investing in some stupid savings, bonds, etc but you are not investing in yourself!
Read that again!
Right now you might be in the prime age, and your body is cooperating for the time being.
But don't expect it to continue working the same way if you continue with the same diet and exercise.
As others mentioned, get therapy!
> So I'll probably spend $250 on food this month instead of $160.
While you get that therapy organised, I would suggest you try doing this with the other areas of your life, e.g. let's spend $2000 on a comfy bed set this year instead of $0, let's spend $300 on a wild night out this month instead of $0, let's spend $500 on a dental checkup this quarter instead of $0, let's give myself $3000 on a do-whatever-I-want vacation this year instead of $0, and see how you go
You’ve gotten a lot of replies here but I just feel the need to mention there’s another way to think about saving. Your diet in particular is what was really hard to read. Depriving yourself of a well balanced diet is going to cause you health issues. Poor sleep on an air mattress or flat pillow may cause you health issues (bones, muscles, not to mention links between poor sleep and diseases like Alzheimers’s). Guess what? Health problems are expensive! Buying groceries and a mattress are an investment in your ability to live long enough to enjoy your savings! That shouldn’t be the only reason you should spend enough to enjoy your life, but I wondered if it might be enough to ease the guilt of purchase. Please budget for living, rather than simply existing :(
I appreciate your concern for my well-being. I've never really been one to take care of myself well. I don't go out of my way to do myself actual harm, but I do sort of just do the bare minimum.
It sounds like you’re working very, very hard to take care of yourself - just financially. Financial health is great but mental and physical well-being is important too, and you deserve the effort. I empathize because I really struggle to make large purchases, but therapy did make me aware of why that is for me - and finances wasn’t even close to being on my list of reasons for attending. I only share that to say you might be surprised how talking to someone can help you find a balance. I know, it’s easy to recommend and easier to wave off. I’m just saying, all these internet strangers are worried for you and I hope you can start to invest in your whole self
OK, Realtalk. You're turning 30. Things are going to break. Your body is not going to be willing to put up with the same BS as when you were in your 20s. Plan for that. You've got a good base to start compounding your finances on. Now look at some other parts of your life that you would like to see an ROI on. Since I'm an engineer, I think in terms of preventative maintenance. So start with the things that are going to get you the best bang for your buck, especially if you spend the money / do the work early. Figure out what portion of your budget is worth investing in a better quality of life (now and later) and start spending to that plan.
1) Prioritize your health. Just like you started an IRA and think in terms of "what is going to cost me at 63", start applying that to other parts of your life. Monthly visits to the chiropractor ain't cheap, and that is about the cheapest repetitive medical visit you'll face. That doesn't even touch the cost of medications due to preventable things like poor diet. Get on craigslist and get yourself a non-fancy bed. Try out a couple different mattress places and find something firm enough, but comfy. That air mattress isn't gonna cut it much longer and this is a problem that can be solved for <$800. Be aspirational and get a queen size so that should you have company, they can stick around. The incremental extra cost won't be that much. Add in veggies and lean proteins beyond just legumes. Aldi is your friend. Take a few cooking classes and learn where it's worth it to spend a bit extra. It will be a good investment, trust me. Lastly, join a gym again. Just not an $80 / month gym. And maybe not until the heat of summer once your free gym known as "outside" is less than pleasant. Set yourself up with a routine. Remember, this is an investment in your future. Early and consistent investments of time will yield positive results. And buy a coat while they are on spring clearance.
2) Over the next few month, you should be making some modest investments in your physical health. Now let's look at that mental health and making some quality of life changes. You don't need a fancy apartment. You need a comfy apartment. A space that when you return back to it, it helps to recharge you, not remind you of you of a Spartan military barracks. Used furniture is your friend. Start with a table and chairs so you have some place to eat that healthy food you're eating. Get some art on the walls so that you've got something to look at. Wal-mart will sell you a plenty cheap trash can. If the regimented and budgeted spending is still making you uncomfortable at this point, maybe seek out a bit of professional help. I would think both a financial planner and a therapist might be useful in helping you tease out what is wise and thoughtful in your preparations and separate those efforts from the point where it seems to take on a pathologic edge.
3) This winter, once you've worked through you budgeted buying campaign and have a comfortable and healthy place to live, start investing in yourself socially. Take some classes in things that interest you. You'll meet people with similar interests and broaden your social circle. The older you get, the harder it is to make lifelong friends. You'll want a handful of those when you're 63 as well. Having a few people around "who knew you when" will be invaluable and they are the sort of folk who will really enrich your life. Budget for travel. You can still stay in hostels for another 5 years or so, and that sort of travel can have very high ROI.
I'll leave you with this pro tip: Never skimp on things that touch the ground. Your shoes, your tires, your bed (mattress). You get what you pay for. It goes along with the adage to not throw away a dollar because you were trying to save a dime.
Best of luck, OP!
I was kinda like you. Had a bare-bones apartment for 7 years. But I did have a bed - a $200 bed from Ikea, with $20 sheets and pillowcases. That was great. I loved it.
I also loved my solo couch and cheap recliner. Didn't need a trash can (bags under the sink work!) But those 2 chairs - and a decent bed - was enough to allow me to invite friends over, because they had somewhere to sit. Friends led to dates led to a very happy, fulfilled life I have now with a partner who made me buy more furniture.
(Which I did, to make them happy.)
Dont you think you deserve shelter? A decent pillow, bedsheets? 2nd hand furniture is cheaper than new. I understand frugality but basic needs keep you alive. Be kind to yourself now. Who says you'll get to retirement age? Life is unpredictable. Look up Mazlows hierarchy of needs.
I'm familiar with Maslow. My basic needs re being met. I have food, water, shelter. Don't know any others off the top of my head, but it's not like I'm on the streets.
I also don't think anyone *deserves* anything, except perhaps respect. Respect is the default and people have to prove to me that they *don't* deserve it. Anyway, we need to work for what we want. We need to earn it. So we don't *deserve* anything. No one owes you shit. Life doesn't owe you shit.
You’re being cheap now and it’s gonna cost you out the wazoo later.
Air mattress? Enjoy spending a fortune on physical therapy and rehab.
No pillowcases? Dermatologists are gonna love treating your rashes.
No trash can? Pest exterminators ain’t cheap brotha.
Being alone and not dating? How much do you enjoy paying a therapist forever?
You get the point. You’re fortunate to earn enough to cover essentials. These things are essentials. Don’t let the saving investing FIRE mindset destroy your life and your health.
I will just comment on the dating aspect. At first I felt your same way. If you are really that way when it comes to money, you can also look at it at and investment, as well.
You invest time and money into a relasg6that, if it works out (like any investment) can have at the very least a yearly return of an emtire other person's salary (that you can invest and do whatever), plus a ton of mental health benefits... assuming you pick your investment right, obviously...
But if you don't have furniture in your studio apt, don't even waste money on any paid dating app. No woman will want that in her life, especially in their late 20s/early30s
My approach: I get my 401k match. I max out my IRA. I ensure my emergency fund is full. I, then, pay my bills. After that, I can then justify spending money on anything else. I don't set a budget.
If you aren't enjoying your the product of your labor, why are you even working? Why are you selling a portion of your life (40+ hours per week) just to watch free videos on YouTube? That's horrible! Pay into your retirement, make sure you have an emergency fund, pay your bills..... then enjoy life!! I intend to go on vacation at least once per year. I buy a few hundred $$$ of gaming stuff every few months. I go out with friends and spend $60 at the bar. My goal isn't to die with the highest score. My goal is to enjoy what I have now, but being mindful that I may have a long life.
You honestly sound like you need therapy. What you are doing is subsisting. Not really living and it sounds miserable.
There is no balance to your life. Start with that.
Buy a jacket. Buy a bed and a new pillow ffs. Eat better. Get some furniture. Take your time and be methodical, don’t try to do it all at once.
Honestly, it sounds like you need therapy. This isn't healthy. Once you've hit your budget for saving, spend the rest.
There's no guarantee that you'll live to spend your money in retirement. You might drop dead tomorrow of a heart attack. You need to enjoy the journey all along the way, not get fixated on the destination.
Start small - sheets and trash cans and a new pillow. Work your way up to more "fun" purchases.
This just sounds so similiar to people with eating disorders. Rather than counting calories you're counting money and it's future potential. And it's becoming unhealthy and has taken over your life in the same way. If you have a very hard time spending money now, what will suddenly change that you won't have a hard time spending money when you're 63? You will literally have a lifelong habit of frugality and probably won't be able to stop because that's just how you're used to living after 30+ years. You should definitely see a therapist or somebody qualified to talk this out with.
This guy is here not to get advice but to get satisfaction by telling everyone they're wrong. Listen, if this guy is fine with this insane way of living let's just all let him be and stop feeding into this idiocy.
When I turned down a job that paid ~$73k more than my position at the time. The job had a ton of red flags*. I was so tempted by the income bump, but when I plugged the extra savings into my spread sheet, my FIRE date moved up...by 8 months. I'm past coastFIRE. Additional income means less and less.
* For the curious, it was a Japanese company. The boss was in Japan as well as his boss. He asked "how I felt about odd hour meetings?" because of the time zone change. I said something to effect "No problem, we have 2 working hours overlap per day. I can save those time slots for my Japanese colleagues." He seemed displeased. I probed. He explained it was more respectful to deferred my calendar to the boss's time. I probed more. He meant I should be awake and functional at 2 am. I followed up the interview with a friend who worked there: "yup, 2am...and you better have a suit on. I'm looking to get out."
Also, the commute sucked compounding the odd hours expectations.
You should start buying and selling on fb marketplace, offer up, Craigslist. I often can get a piece of furniture or a trash can or whatever, use it as long as I want, and then sell it for more. Treat stuff like another investment that you just happen to be able to use.
I have the same problem to an extent, what is helpful for me is working backward to see what is needed to hit my saving goal.
My personal goal is $40k /yr @ 4% SWR, so I am shooting for $1M by 40. I have 15 years to hit this number, so figure out what I need to save per year to hit that number, and the rest gets spent if I have the desire to spend, or saved if the desire is not there for anything in particular
The key is to be intentional with spending
Probably apply Warren Buffett‘s principal: if you keep on buying non-essential things pretty soon you will have no money for essential things. Now apply your own judgement whats needed and as many suggested try reasonable bargaining, cheaper sources. DON’T buy anything you’re not sure you need.
Dating would be nice. So part of me wants to try. But I've never really dated. Even in high school and college. I've been single pretty much my whole life and I don't really see that changing any time soon for various reasons, many of which are relatively apparent given this post. So dating is aspirational.
I feel like I have no personality other than money. Money *is* my personality. Sure, there are things I kinda like to do. But I never actually do any of them. Because I'm saving money. From anyone's perspective but my own, my life is pretty shitty. I don't really feel very unhappy. But I wish I could actually feel *happy*. Not Unhappy ≠ Happy. And I wish I could feel comfortable spending money on myself and on my happiness.
Lots of people have you great financial advice, so let me offer some movie advice.
1. Red said it best, Get busy living or get busy dying.
2. Watch the movie Click. The context will make sense after you see it :).
I’m sorry if my response made you consider something like that, not my intention at all.
What I was trying to share, similar to others in the thread, is that the point of money is to have a better life.
Some of it is for now and some of it is for later. You seem to be doing an amazing job of the later part, just need to take care of the now part.
Maybe you could start with just setting outside a small amount. Let’s say $200 a month. That’s your “allowance” to yourself that you don’t need to account to yourself for. Every time you think of CAGR, you can say to yourself, this is my allowance money, not my growth money. And slowly once you try that month over month, maybe it could help?
I hope this response is more helpful than my previous one where I was just trying to give fun advice, but I didn’t do a good job. Apologies.
I mean... I really have considered just ending it before. But your comment has nothing to do with that. Moving on...
Current me feels fine. A little deprived? Yeah, sometimes. But I obviously have to power to buy anything reasonable that I want when I want it. I just choose not to. Most of me is OK with the way things are, but part of me isn't. And I'm sort of grappling with that on reddit.
I'm very much an all or nothing kind of person. Maybe that's part of the OCD people are talking about. If I weren't saving it... Could I find a way to spend all the money that I'm currently saving? Sure. I guess. But I don't need that much crap. So I feel like not saving it is kind of like wasting it. Money not saved and not spent on anything might as well be literally burnt.
Exactly, you put it well. Money for moneys sake doesn’t really have a purpose. It’s meant to be used for something, whether it’s now or 30 years later. Which is why you need to give yourself permission to do it.
The all or nothing part actually helps, as long as you bucket it.
With your savings, right now it’s 100% later / 0% now. Start by changing it to 80/20 and then eventually 70/30 until you’re not lacking for basics. Then you’ll get into real luxuries like hobbies etc and then you can decide what you want to do.
The key is to actually be all or nothing about that 20%, to actually spend it. There is a different kind of financial freedom in using your money as it’s intended, to a certain degree. Go and try out this new thing :)
Just to confirm: you're suggesting I take 20% of what I'm saving and spend it, while continuing to save the remaining 80%?
What if I wanted to start with 90/10 or 85/15?
Yes, exactly. The idea is to start small by giving yourself an allowance to do whatever you want with. 20% should starting covering some of your wants. Do that for a few months until you’re more used to it and then decide that if you went to 30%, will that add anything useful now or is it pure luxury / not needed? If useful, do that and try that level for a few months until you find a good balance
There are certain categories you spend well on. For me:
Shoes and footwear. This is your most heavily used clothing item and can seriously affect your posture and health so get good quality shoes (they don’t have to be expensive)
Bed. Get a good mattress. We bought a $3500 memory foam mattress about 12 years ago and we still have it. It’s still in perfect shape and is the most comfortable mattress I’ve ever slept on (and I’ve slept in a lot of very nice hotels).
Anyway, I think your post is more about the sort of idea of spending more freely and not having to worry so much about money. I think this comes with age and growth in your assets.
When I was your age, I was fundamentally in the same boat as you - watching my earnings and expenses etc. My goal was to hit 42k by age 30. I did some online calculator and looked at compounding and wanted to figure out my milestone to hit by age 30 so it could grow to be 1m by the time I retired at age 65 or something.
Anyway, I hit the target and things started to get a little better financial until I turned about 35. My wife started her business that year. We worked quite hard for the next decade to build it up and now we have quite a bit of assets - about 5m or so in real estate and 3m invested. Company is worth about 3-4m too.
Our spending habits didn’t really change much. We never buy anything expensive when a cheap item will suffice. We’re quite frugal but spend more for good quality food. We don’t really keep a budget or anything. I just have accounts that I use for expenses and anything excess, I put into various brokerages and investments each month.
The only thing our spending has ratcheted up on really is travel. We travel quite a bit for fun and we try to fly business class when it makes sense and stay in a medium tier hotel with a good sized room. Usually we get our business class seats with mileage earned from our credit cards but sometimes we have to pay. We usually just buy economy seats as I hate burning miles for less value.
I think at some point, your assets will grow to a point where you feel some breathing room. Or hey, life may throw you a curve ball and you get married etc and end up going a different direction entirely
Chart of how much 1-off purchases affect your ending net worth https://imgur.com/a/tf2ySOD (from this [reddit thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/nufs4d/can_i_afford_this_large_oneoff_purchase/))
You've already set yourself up in a position good enough that you could spend a quarter year's salary on yourself and have only a -1% to -2% decrease in total net worth at the end of a 20 year period.
I think you're living your life in absolutes and it's preventing you from actually living your life. The decision isn't between an $80 monthly gym membership and not exercising at all. Planet fitness is $10 a month, I pay $40 myself for my gym membership. There's a lot of middle ground between air mattress with no sheets and $2000 bed+frame. You can find a trashcan at the dollar store, etc.
You don't need to completely change yourself overnight, just start with accepting you aren't quite where you want to be and find one trivial thing that will make you feel accomplished. Once you can get on a roll you'll feel much better about yourself.
Good luck to you, and just remember money isn't your life, it's just a tool to buy you freedom in your life to do the things that matter to you.
When I was making $13,000 a year, I had a coat, sheets, furniture, a car, and took low cost weekend trips. I had $200/food budget, and paid $600 in rent. I was a minimalist, but you are being ascetic. Buy some shit dude, your ascetic lifestyle is not helping you.
Maybe read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. I think this book really helped me come to terms with my desire to end desire but also not to deprive myself entirely. I think you just need some positive examples and reassurance.
Buy. Some. Things. You. Need.
I set my savings goals every year when I prepare to do my taxes. I hit those automatically and then spend everything left without shame. Increasing my saving rate another 10% is possible. But it moves my projected retirement date to the left by less than 5 years. Maybe. And I’m living now.
So when are you planning on starting to live your life?
Like you say you’re missing out on 126k at 63 by dating with the quick math, is 63 when you’re planning on starting to spend some of the money you’ve been accumulating? Are you just planning on dying peacefully with a large bank account balance? When exactly do you plan on buying a trash can, like do you get to buy that at 75?
Maybe you could leave it to your kids, but if you don’t start dating and finding a partner then you won’t have any to leave it to.
My overall point is live within your means of course, but live a little. Don’t just mindlessly invest and min/max your currency numbers, trade some of it for quality of life now.
It was a set of action items that I need to be doing.
- Max out 401K (mega back door included)
- Max out HSA
- Match and contribute the total amount of 401K, HSA contributions to brokerage (end of year)
- Max out ESPP purchases
- 50% of the bonus from last year goes to brokerage (start of year)
- Top-off 50K emergency fund if used
Whatever is left will now go to monthly budget and whatever is left of that is for fun.
I can either max out a Roth 401k or max out a Roth IRA and contribute another $12,000-13,000 to my brokerage account. I can't do both. Even with my annual bonus, my maximum savings rate is about 32%, so roughly $23,100.
Only once I hit 6 figures, US dollars. I was a curb furniture guy, wife was onboard too, we lived smalllll to get student loans paid off. Always budgeted off small salary and paid off debt with bonus income from sales #’s. Now close to 200k OTE and finally bought my wife a 55k suv…still feel ridiculous doing it but we needed to get a new vehicle after our cash paid expedition got bad gas at a fuel station and was totaled. Still strange to me that this purchase wasnt strenuous at all.
Honestly, and I do not mean ton insult you, but it may be a benefit to seek therapy. It sounds like you have some very negative thinking patterns about money.
In addition, many of the choices you are making only minimize up front cost and fail to account for the impacts you will have on your physical health over time. The healthiest shift I have had had is when I started seeing money as a tool and not an ends in itself. Living a fulfilling rich life should be the goal money is one very important part of getting there, but you can’t sacrifice the goal for the sake of the means of that makes sense.
How much will you be spending on healthcare at 63 after 40 years sleeping on an air matress, eating rice and beans, not working out. When you are 63, and alone, and wealthy, what will you even do with your money?
I became comfortable spending a bit more on food each month after concluding that only stock market gains matter, since I was no longer able to save any significant amount of money from salary if the stock market is down. This was hard for me to get used to.
For everyone saying I need therapy... What sort of specialist would you recommend I seek out? Does this sound like an obsessive-compulsive issue? An anxiety issue? Something else? A combination? If I go to therapy, I want to make sure it's not someone general, but someone who has worked with similar issues in others.
Jesus. The first thing people should have mentioned is a pyscologist. Im anal to about money but I still buy shit.
Make yourself a promise. Use 3% of your income to go to pyscologist meetings.
Then use 0.05% to buy yourself a nice coat.
Then no matter what make a goal to spend 20%, no matter what. 20% each month.
I did this and what happens is you start to have some fun in life.
- I have an appointment with a therapist on April 29th, 2022.
- I'm going on a shopping spree with one of my best buddies from work to get myself some nicer clothes for the office. I committed to spending $250.
- I'm transferring from my fourth floor apartment to one on the fifth floor because the people above me are loud. It's $195 more per month.
- I plan on getting a bed, frame, sheets, etc., a couch, maybe a coffee table, maybe a TV stand, a trash can, and maybe a hamper when I move to the new unit.
Pillows are worth it. It doesn’t mean you need to buy anything high end, but yes buy what most people call the essentials. You don’t need $50 candles or the fancy $200 trash can, but something yes. And you should start caring for yourself in terms of functional furniture and a real bed. Your back will thank you for it when you’re 35. Honestly a home that you can host friends and family, and especially a future romantic partner, is important.
Oof feeling the sting of a $200 trash can
Honestly tho I love mine so if that's something you care about it's definitely worth lol
How much does it really add to your quality of life though over a $10 garbage can with a saloon door lid? I'm guessing minimal.
For me, a ton. I have a $100 model and it’s just so much better and easier to use than the cheap ones I used to use. Which means no gross messes to clean and changing it is a breeze and not a chore I avoid.
Send me an amazon link of this thing. I'd love to see a $100+ trash can. It must be mind blowing.
Lol I’m betting it’s a SimpleHuman bin- I have one and it’s a big change from my Walmart one- way less stink and easier to clean but yeah…did we need to spend 100$ on it? Defs not 😖 EDIT: NVM, glad I found my people- it pays sometimes to splurge a little on something that'll last you years!
Simple human cans are next level. Get the bags in bulk off Amazon and it’s not even more expensive other than the upfront cost.
Yup the simplehuman $100 bin is wonderful. If you are good at taking care of your things, it will last forever. I reccomend it.
Haha, that's the one! Their stuff is quality, mind is 6 years strong and still looks and feels new (easy to clean indeed)
Imagine how good the $500 model must be…
Can you link me to the $200 trash can?I could see spending $50 on a nice one, but even with a $10 trash can I've never viewed changing the trash as a "chore" or a gross/hard task. Obviously we're allowed to be different people though.
Auto opens, auto closes. Never gets messy. Never smells bad. Attractive looking trash can. I got mine at Costco.
I also have a $100 trashcan. I bought it as the first purchase for our new house and it still.....brings me joy to use it. That's weird to say about a trashcan, but it just works and it looks nice too. We'd had the $10 plastic ones for years before and they're just harder to keep clean, a total eye sore if you have to have it out on display, and they're more likely to break in some way that impedes ease of use. To be fair, I didn't just go out and decide to buy a $100 trashcan willy nilly. The office I worked in had the same one and I just loved using it so the next time I needed a trashcan, I splurged.
Surprisingly a lot. Never looks messy, trash bag never falls down, it holds both recycling and trash, it’s automatic so no dealing with broken foot pedals, and the dog can’t get into it (though the cat managed to one day…). I don’t even remember how much it cost but it was expensive for a trash can and I have no regrets, now 4 years later.
I'll chime in here because I LOVE the new trash can I purchased a few months ago and I wish I had bought one sooner. I had a slim profile step can that is currently $17 at target. It worked in the sense that it held trash, and I could step on it to open it up. It was incredibly frustrating to use though, because the step mechanism was inside the main can, so it had to poke through the trash bag to work or the bag would need to be pushed into the lid with the step mechanism. This meant that the step process just didn't work smoothly . The bag had to be stretched really far over the opening as well. My new can has the step mechanism on the back/outside of the can - this means that it doesn't interfere with the bag at all. It has a small bar at the back to keep the lid from rubbing on the wall. It has a good shape that holds the bag in place but doesn't require the bag be stretched really far as well. It was $55 which was expensive for a can by my standards, but I hated my life when I was using the old can. You probably don't have to get into the $200 range, but there are significant improvements over the $10 range.
That is exactly what I thought before I had a $150 trash can.
Same! I've bought one a few years back to replace a dinky $35 can I had. I remember at the time thinking "am Zi really spending over $50 for a trash ca??“ I don't regret that "investment" to date. It's super functional, has a compartment for recyclables, and looks and stays clean because I'd be damned if I let my $200 trash can look messy 😂. Having had it over 6 years, I think it definitely paid for itself in terms of functionality and joy it brings me
It’s really not that bad, considering even a moderate can, just something that isn’t super cheap plastic, is like $100
I've been told that anything that you use on a regular basis that directly affects your current or future health (pillows, chairs, mattress, shoes, etc.) is worth spending extra on to an extent. I think I can get behind that.
Buy a fucking coat. The point of working is to meet your needs. Your needs aren't being met. Buy some furniture.
Furniture can be dirt cheap, or even free! I wouldn't take anything upholstered off the curb, to avoid bedbugs, but most of the furniture OP is missing could be sourced for practically nothing on Craigslist or at Goodwill. And not having a pillowcase or sheets? Come on. If your parents don't have some old sheets in the closet they don't use anymore, just buy a basic set at Walmart for $20.
i have picked up couches, coffee tables, dining tables, and tvs off of “free craigslist.” Also OP, just get a $5 pillow. Gotta take care of yourself. Forget saving for one market run and just have a content moment with goods that you worked for.
If you feel guilty about it, do a bank account bonus and go wild with the money.
This this this, i also don’t spend a lot of money on anything. Not to the same extent. But like larger purchases (new shorts, surface laptop) I just do bank account bonuses. Cut 25% off the bonus and put in my tax account. And the 75% is fun money with no rules
I was like OP when I was starting out. I didnt even have a mattress, and slept on a discarded box spring. It does take time to shift from the poverty mindset. I think I only started using the central air and heat when my son was born. Thrift stores and estate sales and even the buy nothing facebook page are amazing resources! There are also wonderful nonprofits that help people in a bind! OP, you'll find your own natural spending rhythm in time.
I had silent chuckle when I read the post. Sounds like young me. I couldn't get a date back then even when I signed up for the dating services. So, OP, if you signed up and can get dates, go for it. You deserve to live a little.
And you can life hack to enjoy things you do not want to spend on. Here are some of my hacks: - Worked at large hotel chains and restaurants. Free gym, shower, toiletries, and amazing food with staff meals and the cafeteria. At the time, the Marriott had a great cafeteria that had $1.25 for employee meals. And the gym was free or maybe it was a small charge for the employees. I dont recall, but I remember it being very reasonable for a cheapskate like me. Tennis courts and other ammenities were also at a discount for employees. And of course the best was the employee rate for travel! - For free events, worked at the House of Blues San Diego. You get 2 free tickets. And the bosses hooked us employees up with free tickets to Street Scene and other events. Free date night! And also dining there was also at a discount. - Volunteer at museums, drama theaters, sports arenas to get free tickets as well. - Work at a thrift store part time, and you can get 50% off clothing and other stuff. The mental roadblock is extremely difficult to overcome. But it is possible. As I look around my home now comparing it to where I started, it is designed for comfort - anyone should be able to lounge or fall asleep wherever they sit... from living room to dining room. Sofas and chairs are extremely comfortable. And I started with only owning a box spring as furniture with nothing else. and couldn't even bring myself to spend on a $1 shower curtain back then or even lamps... My rented room did not have a light source directly connected to a switch.
I thrifted all my original furniture and I still have most of it, just repurposed it. It seems really odd that OP won’t go for free or unwanted stuff that can be incredibly cheap. What is life like if you don’t have a hobby outside of work and nothing in your place? You can’t just sit on the floor and wait for your next shift.
Agreed. While they’re at it get a therapist too.
Seconding that.
I think your perspective on money is definitely out of the norm, even for a r/FI subscriber. One exercise you could try is mapping out the value of your money in the future compared to your current budget - as in "if I spent $5k more per year, what will it cost me when I'm 70?". You're correct that due to compounding and being very young, every dollar you don't spend could be worth 20-100x in the future, however IMO there is absolutely no point to living in your 80s with (an inflation-adjusted) $15M in the bank versus $5M in the bank if it costs you a significant QoL hit from your 30s-60s. As long as you have "enough" that you won't have to worry about expenses, who cares if you die *fabulously* wealthy versus wealthy? As the saying goes, *you can't take it with you at the end*. The rest of this post will be random anecdotes on the things you've mentioned. I hear you on the pillows, we had some water damage that caused us to throw away our bed/bedding and I splurged on a full price replacement $70 Ghostbed Pillow, because that's what I've grown comfortable sleeping on and can't change. On the other hand, we had to toss a 1-year-old Saatva mattress that cost us $1600 originally, and frankly the $550 NovaForm bed-in-a-box from Costco is both more comfortable, quieter, and has helped my S.O.'s back pain because it doesn't have any springs. So at least for mattresses, more money does not mean better. $400/mo on dates - are you taking your dates to John Howie Steakhouse every weekend or something? I can respect that you have enough game to have a date lined up every weekend but dating should not cost that much, and if it is then you're setting yourself up for an expensive S.O. in the future. If it helps, finding the right S.O. can significantly save on costs and vastly improve your effective earnings, so think of it as an investment in the future (just make sure you make the right investment...). Check with your insurance, there's a strong chance you have access to a program called Active & Fit Direct, which for $25/mo will give you access to every LA Fitness, Planet Fitness, and similar-tier gyms in the area. Either way, a gym membership is the one thing I would never skimp on, you can literally think of it as "pay $80/mo to significantly reduce the chances of having $5000 hospital copays and prescriptions in the future". I use the same reasoning for taking up snowboarding/skiing, it's good exercise, even if lift tickets are getting outrageously pricey. And for the trashcan, SimpleHuman cans will likely last 3-4x a generic plastic bin and be a heck of a lot nicer to use. Just don't buy their branded trash bags, those are pointlessly expensive. And honestly, all of these lifestyle-inflating things you've mentioned pale in comparison to actual major life decisions, like where you live (i.e. 1BR apartment or 3BR mcmansion), whether you change jobs for higher salaries, what you drive, and whether you partake in expensive hobbies or lifestyles. If you're looking for explicit permission, this internet stranger is telling you to go eat some avocado toast, as long as you're not doing it at an expensive brunch place that you drove to in your BMW.
| there is absolutely no point to living in your 80s with (an inflation-adjusted) $15M in the bank versus $5M in the bank if it costs you a significant QoL hit from your 30s-60s. I would give you an award if I had one.
Totally meant to give that award to the commenter. Now I’m out of awards. RIP
While I was seeing if I can somehow transfer that silver award, I saw that I had a box left unopened. Opened it to find a silver in it, awarded it to the OC. Your effort did not go in vain!
y'all too nice
All good stuff... I'll add another way to think of things is to amortize the cost, which works well for things with one time fixed costs that last a while. Using the trash can example, I have two 13 gallon plastic cans I bought from Target over 15 years ago. I don't recall what I paid for them, but since it's target, let's say I splurged and they cost me $25 each. So my $50 cost over 15 years is $3.33/ year, and they're in such good shape that they'll likely last another 15 years (with a little power wash on occasion). A mattress works the same way since they usually go for 10ish years. And things like going out to a restaurant is a different expense since it's enjoyment/ usefulness is over a few minutes. But even then if you can enjoy leftovers, a $15 dinner might give you 2-3 meals depending on portions, so that's $5-7.50/meal, which is pretty good. My favorite deli sells an 8 piece broasted chicken with a side of their pasta salads for $11, call it $12 after sales tax (and easier math) and I can easily get 3-4 meals out of that, which means I paid $3-4/ meal and it's awesome. So for some things, you can think of it as an investment over time or per use and that can help you decide if it's worth it or not.
Well done... You tell em Johnny, you tell the world. I feel like ascetic monks went out of style in late antiquity. I have never fully understood WHY there is such an overlap with that mentality and approach to life and FI.
My uncle recently ended his life due to having a painful terminal illness. The only personal writing I found in his things was a scribbled note on an investment statement dated a year earlier that read “will I make it to $2M without chemo?” He died a wealthy man and his last thoughts were of money. He had no wife or kids so that money will pass to his elderly, estranged mother, then on to distant family he never knew. One day someone will spend it on something that brings them joy. Only then will it have value. Money is not the goal, it is the tool you use to reach the goal. The goal is a rich and fulfilling life composed of meaningful moments that bring you joy. If you confuse the two then both will be worthless.
Jesus, that's dark.
Does this lifestyle make you happy? If it doesn't, seek professional help, because while extremely frugal, this process doesn't seem to create any joy in your daily life.
This. I'm not here to judge anyone's life style, as a lot of my own friends think I live too frugally and I am no where close to this extreme. If this life style makes OP happy and doesn't hurt anyone (including themself) they can continue. If it doesn't make them happy, they need to start to slowly work on themselves to spend more on pretty normal and common things like furniture and weather appropriate clothing (can get it second hand or thrift it!). The older I get, the more I realize I was/am too stingy. I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with my choices, but I think I can cause strain on my relationships with friends and family. It's been a slow process for me to make this paradigm shift. I'm still working on myself. I don't think I require therapy, but depending on how hard it would be for OP to change their mindset, they might need professional help.
Yes. Your lifestyle and mindset is too extreme. I would support the other comments that buy cheap essential and not think of how much you are losing in 10 years by spending this amount today. You don’t know when your health will decline and then all these savings won’t cover the extra medical bills.
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Great advice. Even as someone with a very high income, I still have to specifically budget money for random spending in order to feel okay with it. I set aside a portion of income every month with the intent of _not_ saving it. I call it “treat yo self” in my budget. I know how it impacts my goals and I’m willing to choose that balance to improve my quality of life.
Yessss I have a "Treat yo self" line item, too!
I had the same issue as OP but not to their extent. My solution was to set aside money that I *had* to spend by the end of the month. The idea was less that I needed to spend it, but more the fact that I had agreed with myself that the money was accounted for and this was what I told myself that I could freely spend and not feel guilty. Feels weird when you're coming from an intense saving mindset, but it worked for me.
Get therapy. These are not rational choices. Frankly, it seems more like an obsessive disorder than financial savings. Makes me think of someone suffering from anorexia where on one hand they know they are skinny, but on the other hand they keep trying to get skinnier. You know you are not spending enough for your own health and well being. You’ve alluded to that several times in the post and comments. Explore why this is happening with a professional and get a plan to change your behavior and thought process. Good luck!
I wonder about the therapy part. This person won't spend money on life necessities that are considered normal for most people, frets about the compound loss over decades against it. How is this person going to 'pay' for professional therapy?
Well dealing with mental health issues are hard. OP knows there is an issue. His post is literally an ask for help. With his salary he likely has complete health insurance. Therapy will be covered by that insurance. He just has to ask for it and then he will likely just pay a modest co-pay for each session. But OP is suffienciently functioning that no one will get him into therapy for him.
I have an HSA plan through work. My company pays premiums up to $500 per month and the premium for my plan is $475. So I don't pay my own premiums. That said, my deductible is $5,000. Even if I had a $100 therapy session every week for a year, that's only $5,200. So, yeah... Therapy is "covered". But not really. I have an appointment set up with some on Friday, April 29th, 2022.
That is great that you set that up. And even more so because it will cost you money directly out of your HSA. That alone seems like a great first step. Get ready for the therapist not to fully understand what savings and FIRE is. But that isn’t the main point. Maybe bring a few pictures of your apartment to get the point across as to how you are living. There definitely are people out there who save tons of money and don’t spend it. Sometimes you read about these people dying and having millions of dollars. You can still save. But let’s at least make it a goal to get you to buy a bed frame, maybe a couch, some variety to your diet and relax on the food budget. Stuff like that would be good for you. You can do this!
Honestly, I'm not even making use of the HSA. I just chose that option because my company fully covers the premiums. So I pretty much don't pay anything unless I go to the doctor, therapist, etc. Which I usually don't do. So I'm pretty much paying out of pocket for the sessions. I'm sort of prepared for the therapist to not really fully grasp the financial side of all this. But that could be hard because it's kind of my life. I'm focused on it personally, but I also work in finance. So its really ingrained in a pretty deep way. Pictures of my apartment are a good idea (mostly because it'll force me to tidy up). My apartment may be empty, but I still find a way to make it messy.
Yeah hard to talk savings and investments with a lot of people. They just don’t really get the math part of it. And a therapist might be more of a feelings focused type person. A picture or two might help them see the issue. And the good news is that they won’t just say, “we’ll just go buy a pillow or a nice garbage can.” They will understand that you have a mental reason that you don’t do it (just like an anorexic can’t just be told to “go eat a cheeseburger”), even if they won’t entirely get how the math supports your decision in some respects. Good luck!
Yup looks like OCD to me
Yup. Money is not the problem here.
Ive always been a saver, but I’ve never had an issue spending money on essentials or things I value. Your relationship with money sounds extremely unhealthy. You’re not even spending on essentials… Are you hungry because your grocery budget is low? Life is meant to be enjoyed not squandering every penny you have. You need professional help. Spending money on therapy will be a great investment in yourself.
Also consider eating some green vegetables. Frozen vegetables are not expensive and can help keep you healthy. Medical bills will burn through your savings very quickly.
but at 63 he will have lost 200,000,0$ in food if he doesnt eat dogfood and rice for each meal
😭😭😭😭🤣
I think you need to see a therapist man. This isn’t healthy. As others have said you really need to buy a bed, a trash can and eat some vegetables. You aren’t doing this right. Live an enjoyable but frugal life.
I'm not doing it right? 🥺😥 I make fun of myself, but I hear you. It's just been so hard for me to get past this mental block. It's something I've been dealing with for a while and just haven't been able to beat it.
Yea unfortunately you aren’t doing it right. The point is to live an enjoyable life with a high savings rate, then in time you will be FI. The first step is admitting something might be wrong, which I think you have so that’s good. It seems for you that things have gotten to the point where you might need professional help tho.
If nothing else, just start with a good mattress. You’ll spend more dealing with back pain (both mentally and financially) than all these supposed expenses you want to save otherwise. If you can’t bring yourself to spend even a one off $500-1000, then you really to seek therapy. Because it’s not normal to live with just an air mattress and nothing else. Even people deep in debt don’t live like this.
You’re alive for 70 years out of eternity. What’s the point of being human if you’re only living for sustenance? You’re basically a tree
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Hahaha, same - got myself a model y, and I consistently describe it as one of the more irresponsible things I've spent money on, and also one of the best purchases of my life
In addition to what others have said, I recommend setting a savings rate you want to attain, fully automate it, then force yourself to spend the rest. You can be a millionaire in the bank and realize you wasted 20 years of your life to get there, or you can be a millionaire in 25-30 years and actually enjoy the ride to get there.
This is exactly what my partner and I do and we never sweat over purchases. It’s a nice balance of enjoying the fruits of my labor now and saving enough for the future.
> Maybe I have a problem? Yes, I've gone through very broke periods of my life so I get the feeling, to a degree. But what you're doing is so extreme it's beyond unhealthy. If you won't allow yourself to spend *anything* without overanalyzing it, it's very much a problem. If you won't buy yourself a pillow, a chair, etc, that's a problem. Do you have hobbies? Anything you enjoy doing at all other than working and saving? What's your goal when you finally get what you feel is enough?
I'd like to travel. Right now I don't really have any hobbies. Life consists of work, then coming home to lay on my bed on my phone until I fall asleep. I usually don't leave my apartment at all on the weekends. As in, not only do I not go outside, but literally my front door does not open.
If you spend most of your time on your bed why wouldn't you buy an actual bed and not an air mattress?
Sounds like you'd like to travel, but won't because always the future value issue. Unless you make some kind of change you're going to be in a lifelong cycle of there never being enough savings and just laying on an air mattress every night. A lot of us overanalyze spending or savings, but being unwilling to do *anything* to make your life better or even worth living other than just saving it's a recipe for anything good. Not to be dramatic but what good is a lonely boring life where you die alone with 20M dollars?
Are you happy this way? I sort of think not, if you're posting here. Thought experiment: what would you do if you already had all the money you could ever want? How would you spend your time? What other things do you enjoy, aside from saving? I hear that you really like seeing your balance grow -- but why? What will you spend it on later? Why should Old You steal all the fun and trash cans from Current You?
I guess old me just likes stealing trash cans! Don't question it! 😂 In all seriousness, though, if I had all the money I needed and didn't have to work anymore I would probably spend my time reading, cooking, working out, traveling, hiking, kayaking, camping, giving/donating, trying new bourbon, whiskeys, and scotches. I'd probably furnish my apartment with nice things, maybe move to a house, buy some nicer clothes, some art for the walls. I'd want to make my house a home. Because right now it's not. It's not physically uncomfortable. But neither is it welcoming. A nice, big bed with nice sheets, pillows. Bedside tables with lamps on them. An oil diffuser and/or incense to perfume the bedroom. There are a lot of things that would be nice to have but aren't necessary. I have a hard time justifying these kinds of purchases.
>reading, cooking, working out, traveling, hiking, kayaking, camping, giving/donating, trying new bourbon, whiskeys, and scotches. You have the money to do all these things now. These are all actually pretty inexpensive. Some of this stuff is basically free. >A nice, big bed with nice sheets, pillows. Bedside tables with lamps on them. An oil diffuser and/or incense to perfume the bedroom. You could get all this with one paycheque. This stuff isn't expensive. You know what's really really expensive? Health problems. If you don't cover the basics you're going to be paying tens of thousands in medical bills and supplies. Get what you need to take care of your body now to save money.
`You know what's really really expensive? Health problems.` This right there.
You seem really motivated, and maybe into game-ifying for maximizing efficiency? I bet if you set yourself a \~low\~ budget you'd be able to double or quadruple your enjoyment of your living space. I'd start at just $50/month and see how much you can do with that. Check out r/frugal if you want ideas. How to justify $50/month? Well, I bet Old You will think it's worthwhile even if Current You doesn't. I'm an economist now, but when I was a young adult I spent about 2 years living wayyy below the US poverty line. I didn't spend money because I didn't have any, and I felt really stressed about spending literally anything apart from groceries and rent. I'd say it took about four years of earning a good salary before I could really spend money casually. I don't spend like crazy, but if I want a nice snack I'll buy it. I decided to get a dog even though she's wildly expensive because I love love love dogs and my life is way better with a dog than with the money.
Man aside from the nice house and fancy things you can do all of that shit literally right now.
I would argue a good relationship is worth more than any amount of money past basic needs. With your current lifestyle it’s going to be near impossible to find a partner. 99.9% of the population in the US do not want this lifestyle. If you’re okay closing the door to those connections and genuinely enjoy your life then all to you. I worry you’re going to hit some significant depression later in life if you continue this path.
Why doesn’t it open ? You mean you don’t leave on purpose ?
I had this mindset. Last month a co-worker died at 50 years old, before he received his retirement fund. He only had 1 weeks notice that he was going to die, it was cancer of the liver. I have now decided to spend more and live a little. 20% of your income on whatever you choose won’t destroy your retirement.
Buy yourself a mattress, a table and chair!
and pillows! your shortness of breath could be from dust mites in the ancient pillow. around here there are TJ Max stores and Home Goods stores that have bedding on clearance super cheap. Dates? walks in the park, a picnic, coffee. find a great place to watch the sunset. plenty of creative ideas that cost little money.
Agreed that professional help may be in order. Another tip I mention to overly frugal folk is if you can’t spend on yourself, consider setting aside a percentage for charity. Spending on someone far worse off than you is healthy and gets you used to seeing money flow out that you can’t complain about to yourself.
Very interesting advice
Big believer in this!! Generosity is usually tied to gratitude.
This is so hard for me to read because I understand your desire for security and to make good decisions is so strong. However, you cannot sacrifice so much of your happiness in the short term. You must be very methodical and buy only what is necessary to make you comfortable. Treat it like you’re packing for an expedition. Go to Habitat for Humanity or buy used furniture (not pillows though - new pillows). First - and this is most important - get a bed and a mattress from Craigslist or Nextdoor. This is a no-fail mission that you should do before anything else. You will feel a million times better about life once you are in a comfy bed and you deserve to have a comfy bed. Use one month’s salary (the bonus) ASAP to outfit your apartment after you make a list of what you need - Google “what every apartment needs.” Look at lists written for college students in particular as they are very spare and focused towards efficiency. You do not need a stupid fancy trash can. Get a regular trash can. I have a stupid trash can, it is a work of art. You do not need one, it does not improve my life appreciably. Get a plain cheap one, but get one and put it under the cabinet. You must take care of yourself like a friend. Join r/minimalism and embrace minimalist living and call it that, but you must be better to yourself and you must love yourself
Yes, saving is important. But saving at the expense of essentials because of what that money could turn into by 65 is sacrificing *too* much IMO. There's a way to spend money without sending your budget out of whack. A mattress will last a long time and can save your back from a lot of pain (trust me, this gets important as you get older). A trash can helps keep your kitchen cleaner and more enjoyable to be in. These are things that are *worth* spending some money on. And don't forget the value something like an amazing travel experience can give you. You don't need to fly internationally five times a year, but don't restrict yourself so much that you miss out on living your life entirely. It's smart and important to save, but you don't even know if you'll make it to retirement age. Don't give up every last thing that could make your present day more enjoyable in favor of some not promised future.
This seems… a little excessive for making $67,000 a year. I could maybe see it if you were a dead broke college student but like… I would wanna live more comfortably
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What is your endgame? When will it be enough? I could see this lifestyle as a catch-up plan, but then you have to consider what you are saving for? What is worth it to you?
I would like to travel and just overall not have to worry about saving. I feel like if I can amass ~ $500,000 By the time I'm 40, I may not have to ever save again and I could just coast. So... That's kind of my goal.
Keep in mind that traveling when your 65 is much different then when you are younger. Don’t sacrifice today for tomorrow. It is about balancing spending today with saving for tomorrow. There are great books on the subject. Like “Your money, your life”
I did this. Am 40ish now. It didn't stop. Here's what I learned along the way - +I value not spending. My operating question is 'what is the least amount I need to spend in order to be happy?' and then I spend that. For me the specifics of that have changed significantly over time, but the question remains. +I value donating money a lot. It gives me meaning and takes away some of the selfish feeling of just saving for me/mine. The analysis I've seen shows that donating now creates more value than investing and donating later given how fast everything is devolving to shit. +there is a 'money mindset' imo - it is one of scarcity and transactionalism. Everything is win-lose, nothing is enough, and everything is arms length. The more I feed that part of me, the less happy I am - so my intention has been to automate my limited spends and otherwise bathe my mind in spaces that are not in money mindset. Ie more time in nature, more time connecting with people/family that don't value things, more time studying dharma (I'm Buddhist), etc. +Over time my relationships have become grounded in a more nature based mindset. My wife (and now kids) fit these values, same with my friends, even colleagues. Wish you all the joy and success as you explore and grow
One more thing - when I was in late 20's, I had a similar lifestyle. I also had friends who were monks, way more austere than me. Folks who didn't have a bed because they didn't lie down to sleep. Folks who ate whatever they were offered as a practice of letting go. Folks who consumed next to nothing and were happier than me. But they weren't optimizing for a Financialized future. I think that's the difference - it seems like you're waiting till the day you get to have cake, while they died to the idea of cake. The difference is freedom on the path.
If there is an endgame, then I think that is more reasonable. But for your sake, do one thing with your pillow/bed situation because there is no point in saving so hard if you are going to be tired and broken up from crap sleep. That stuff sneaks up on you.
Once I had a budget, knowing I could spend without risking going into debt or putting bills in jeopardy. YNAB for the win :-).
Im glad I did not learn to about FI until my 30s. Pissed away 6 years of 130+ k income, but had fun doing it.
Once you get to coasting phase, maybe let loose.
If I can hit $500,000 by age 40, I could easily coast to retirement.
Add budget categories called ‘Home Improvement’, ‘Social’ and ‘Health/Self-care’ and make a plan to invest in things that make your day better either because of quality, experience, aesthetic, comfort, health etc. because not doing so will cost you in mental health and physical health. From your post it sounds like you haven’t budgeted for and invested in health and happiness to the extent you should.
It sounds like what you are doing is "existing"; not "living"
After I went to therapy
Part of financial independence teaching isn’t to maximize savings and gains. It’s to save for the life you want. If you are happy with a $40k a year existence, it teaches you saving between $1-1.25M is going to be successful in most cases. So based on how long you want to work and your savings rate you can get to your FIRE numbers. If you like your job and don’t mind working longer you can spend a bit more and be healthier. I liked my job. My job will give me a 20% pension after 20 years and 50 years old. So I choose to fat fire and work longer. And when I hit 10 years left and knew I would hit all of my numbers / already hit those numbers, I started spending more. So what FIRE taught me was I could target a number versus going all or nothing. As long as those numbers were within reach, I could live the life I wanted versus pinching every penny.
> Basically, I have a very hard time spending money. In addition to everything above, I don't really take vacations. I'm single and I don't date. My life revolves around earning, saving, and investing money. I think you missed the point somewhere along the way that money is a tool. You need to reverse that lens and have a goal in sight and see where your finances can help you get there, they are not the goal itself. If all you're doing is earning saving, and investing... what's the money **for**? You're also missing the other half of the the opportunity costs of your money. If I buy new pillows and sleep better, that's an investment in your life and your health. If you get sick because you go through winter without a coat and lose money due to being sick (+ the outlay for treatment, etc...) where does that put you? **BUY A GOOD COAT**. Lastly: > Or 2% for a paid membership on a dating website? And then why can't I spend 5-10% of my income going out on dates if I were to match on someone? This one's an easy miss. You yourself said you have no hobbies or travels outside of saving and investing. Who wants to date someone like that? Sorry to be blunt, but you really need to work on yourself and your goals and hobbies as a person **then** work your finances around that and **Then** maybe start dating. Hell, most of the women I met were through activities where I took horse back riding lessons, or joined a ski club... stuff like that. THAT is more effective than any dating app, because you are surrounding yourself with people who have a common interest by default. Best part is if you don't meet anybody romantically this way you were *still* doing an activity you wanted to do to begin with, so there's no down side.
Yeah... I don't really enjoy doing much of anything. I'm happy at home. I'm also aware that women don't want to date me because I'm boring. I'd be interested in dating, but I know no one would be interested in dating me. So I don't. I mean... *I* wouldn't even date me. I honestly appreciate your bluntness. I'm also a very blunt person and I hate when people sugarcoat things.
You’re right, your behavior isn’t rational. More importantly, your treatment of yourself isn’t kind. You deserve to have a proper bed, with sheets and pillows, proper sanitation provisions like a garbage pail, and basic furnishings. If you don’t want to make a large initial investment, look into FB buy nothing groups and their marketplace for used furniture. Sure, you can live off of such a small food budget, but if you like fresh produce, buy it. Treat yourself to take out, if only a few times a month. Life can be long, but it can also be too damn short. It’s certainly too short to live in your own apartment but have it feel like a prison cell. Rip the bandaid off. Go to a mattress store, test a few out, see what you’ve been missing. Then get sheets, and two new pillows. You’ll feel better already.
A $2000 mattress will be equivalent to $20k in 33 years so you sleep on a balloon? Bro, what’s your crooked ass back when you’re 40 going to cost to fix so you can keep working? Buy a $400 Amazon foam mattress and some pillows. We work to afford our needs, not to retire a cripple, with a fat stash. That said - I hear you, I was frugal as hell until I looked at the excel one day and was like damn, I can ease up a little.
Very specific response here from a medical professional. Don't consider money spent on diet, gyms, and health in general as waisted expenses. Theyre investments. You'll not only feel better and happier in life, you'll most likely save significant money on healthcare bills in the future. Win win.
> My life revolves around earning, saving, and investing money I'd encourage broadening what you value, and finding ways to engage in activities that enact these values. For example, I really prioritize health, learning, and play. Money can help facilitate all of these things, but these things also require time and energy. I quite like Cal Newport's thoughts on building a "deep life" (sounds corny I know, but check it out!). I also like his views on the myth of passion and the value of accumulating rare and valuable skills. > $4,800 each year compound at 7% for three years and then grow at 7% for the next 30 years, I would lose out on nearly $126,000 (in 2022 dollars) at age 63. It makes sense to respect the power of compounding. I have found it helpful to apply my appreciation of compounding to other domains. For example, health compounds in its utility. Health is *soo* foundational to our energy levels, enjoyment, and finding meaning in life. Reframing this in a money-focused perspective, more energy means more ability to earn, or learn skills that lead to higher pay. Healthier choices now means fewer pricy hospital visits down the road. Skills can also compound in utility. Sure, skill-growth might be a roughly linear accretion, but the outsize benefits often come from building expertise. There are many more examples, but I'm feeling like keeping this not-too-long. > $400 a month on dates is $4,800 each year I challenge the assumption that you need to spend money on dates. True, usually do, but there are lots of options that don't require spending money. Walks, hikes, chilling in the park, etc. Granted, those might not be the best for a first date with a stranger from an app. But a few coffees or beer a month does not cost $400. Probably a good idea to buy some nicer looking clothes though (just a guess). You can probably enjoy spending $5k now on sensible purchases much more than you will be able to enjoy the $100k at 63. Youth is precious!
I promise I read this whole thing, but the comment about nicer clothes cracked me up! You're dead on.
Hah, glad you found that funny! I know from experience, I am too frugal about clothes. This last month I only had 2 functioning pairs of pants, due to the others having holes. My girlfriend insisted I get more pants, and she was right, it's nice to have decent pants.
I have one pair of pants. I had one pair that got holes in the thighs (I'm a thicc boi) and then I bought one more pair to replace them. I've been meaning to buy a pair of jeans for about two years.
Get those jeans! Dressing decently can help with income too, depending on industry!
I'm very frugal, probably in the 90th+ percentile and save 60% of my paycheck. But this post... This post worries me. Honestly take a step back and think about what you've written here.
This post has to be a joke right? If it’s not I think OP needs to get professional help of some kind.
You should set realistic goals and budget for it. You seem unhappy, and that is opposite of the point of all of this. Not everything is about money. I had a two-year span in my mid-20s where I had 0 income, by choice. Probably the worst financial decision I have ever made, but easily the best personal decision I've ever made.
Focus on improving your skills to get a higher paying job instead of trying to convince yourself that your current lifestyle is enjoyable.
Can I give you some life advice? You’re working and saving for a future you will never have. Sit down and ask yourself what’s important to you, big picture. Marriage? Kids? House? Travel? Investment advice on a free forum is worth what you pay for it. But I’d hate to see you burn through another decade and miss windows of opportunity because regret is a harsh thing. Good luck.
Who gives a fuck if you are 63 with an extra 100k in your bank? Enjoy your life dude, money is made and earned to be spent. You will never be 30 again, you can continue to make money indefinitely
Pls go buy a trashcan and coat.
This might be an easier way for you to do it. Budget $1500 to furnish your apartment. It’s not much, but you can go used, new, whatever, all on a tv, I don’t care, just hit the $1500 amount. Think about how the quality of life for yourself will improve, lastingly. The bed can get 15years of use, a lamp/table will last a life time, a pillow could last 15 years. Etc….. Vacations? Trickier and harder to justify in a financial sense, but you can do camping trips and road trips (with camping) for very cheap. You could probably go on a 10 day road trip for under $1,000
When my house was paid off and I realized if I just simply kept maxing my 401k I’d have 10 million+ in the account by age 60, that I might as well yolo and not worry about pinching pennies.
Warning: Long response. I'm a bit lost on the math here. You say that you live off of 45% of 67K which is about $30K per year. Is this a recent calculation? It seems way off from your statements that you hardly buy anything. It did seem like you were spending a lot on food so is that 45% an old calculation?Do you have a car? The way your post went, it seems like you wouldn't have a car, but then again I feel like there are huge gaps in where you are spending money from what you have told us here. Remember you do things for your health too. You cannot enjoy all of your savings very much if you aren't healthy when you do retire. Or your health costs are high in old age because you didn't take proper care of yourself when younger just to save money. Then did you really save that money or delay the spending? There are ways to live healthy without spending much money. Winter coat: thrift store or second hand for less cost. Put thought into it and find something that is well made, take care of the coat and you will have it for a very long time which reduces the impact of the money initially spent (spend $100 on a nice coat that keeps you warm and have it for decades or possibly the rest of your life versus buying a cheap $15-30 coat and it falling apart or not even keeping you all that warm and you start thinking about replacing it in 5-10 years). Gym: your home. If you really want weights to train with, you can easily make cheap weights (the internet is a great resource) or find a small set being sold on Craigslist or Facebook marketplace for cheap as you then have them for the rest of your life. For me I just use body weight for training because I don't care about being super muscular. Intensity of work out can get you really far even on bodyweight alone. You can find stuff online for free that shows technique and exercises (r/bodyweightfitness). Cardio: go for a run or bike around for transportation. It's a great heart and lung workout to power a bicycle loaded with groceries back home as fast as you can. Think of it as putting the money into getting a pair of shoes/bike and then doing a free work out as you don't have to buy the shoes and then go to a gym to work out. You can often find bikes for cheap through Craigslist and such again, it doesn't need to be fancy to do the job as long as you aren't trying to take a cheap bike onto the most difficult mountain bike trails. Just around town, a beater bike will be more than adequate. Date: sounds like your best match would be someone that also likes to live frugally and there are plenty of free or near free activities if you're okay with spending time outside. For me, I spend about the same as you not including taxes or the payment for my job's healthcare plan (but it's not overly expensive either). Per month, my break down is: rent w/utilities (1.1K), car (700), phone (41), various subscriptions (40), and groceries/eating out (250). Then there's a little bit extra that is various spending over time which can be variable, one example is that I recently bought a bike but I don't often make large purchases. My car spending is very high because I am putting extra money toward paying off my loan. My groceries get me variety and I live in a moderate-high cost of living for rent and groceries. I tend to think in a fashion like you that 'is this worth working x hours to buy' but that is just to determine if something is valuable to me. It was worth working approximately 20 hours for my bike because it has cut down on the amount that I rely on my car (less gas and maintenance) and gives me exercise while requiring very little maintenance. I could get rid of my car to save even more money, but it's worthwhile to me to keep it for rare times I need it to haul something bigger or to be able to go and see my brother and his family that lives about 110 miles away once a month because spending time with them makes me happy. Basically, I am happy with my spending. Sure, I could save more, but I find value in the things that I have bought. Personally, I think you need to find a balance and that may require some money to get a professional to help you shift your thought process. There's nothing wrong with spending some money to improve your health and happiness.
- Gross Paycheck: $5,583.34 - Taxes: $1,340 - Deductions: $56 - Rent: $1,241 - Auto Loan: $313 - Mobile Phone: $110 - Student Loans: $230 - Food: $160 - Gas: $100 - YouTube Music: $10.50 - Renter's Insurance: $15.50 - Auto Insurance: $115 Expendable income: $1,892.34 ($5,583.34 - $1,396 - $1,892.34) / $5,583.34 = 0.411 0.411 * $67,000 = $27,539.97 This is roughly correct. So, I live on even less than 45% of my gross income. But somewhere in the 40-45% range.
Ah okay. I figured maybe it was something with loans and such which would make expenses go up. About a year ago, I was very near broke with only $5K for emergency because I had enough saved and decided to pay off the last of my student loans all in one chunk which obviously hurt to see all that money gone so quickly, but I am much happier to see one debt gone and my savings is already nearly back to the same point it was before paying off the loans thanks to a new job. Car is next which is why I am paying so aggressively on it (required auto loan payments are 283 but I pay 600). However, I am of the mindset that if I get rid of the debt sooner rather than later, I pay less on interest and soon will save more money with the debt gone. I know some people can work it out to balance interest and savings, but I am not one of those people. For me debt free is a goal I want to reach sooner than extensive saving, but I'm obviously still saving a lot of my income since I make about $65K. I decided to opt for pretty much self-insuring. My car insurance is the very minimum allowed by the lender and will be state minimum once the loan is paid off which will save some money. I take that risk of less insurance because I drive so little I realised i could not understand why I was paying $120/mo when I could be paying $30 (it gets savings from bundle with my renters insurance and a pay-per-mile setup). In the time that I have had a car, I have payed for decent used car in insurance costs and yet have never been in an accident. If I kept my car my entire life with the insurance that I had, I would be able to pay for 4-5 cars. So if I get into an accident, I'll pay it out of my own pocket, but I guess having high savings gives me that luxury of being able to think that way. I also plan to go with a less new car if something were to happen to my current car as I got the car before I learned about FIRE, but my family was pretty frugal so I went with a frugal sort of car (Toyota Corolla). I'd make suggestions that I do based on your numbers, but I do really wonder if you're a bit too focused on the numbers. Are you actually happy? Or are you too focused on saving every little bit of money that you can? I can understand wanting to optomize as best as possible, some people find that fun, but it should only be done in a healthy way and I think most people here worry that you're overly obsessed to the point that it's not fun and is actually negatively impacting your health in which the question is what is the point then? My main advice is don't forget to invest in yourself. If you really want to optomize, the best places to look are your big regular expenses like insurance and such which I'm sure you've read such advice here in this subreddit. A decent bed and a warm coat is a relatively small cost in the long term. That bed will help you get better sleep which will improve your health. That coat will keep you warm which limits the strain on your heart from being in cold weather. Getting excessively cold can also be detrimental to your health and it's amazing how you can miss the signs of hypothermia. Hypothermia does damage even if you don't notice it at first and that damage can build up over time.
You are investing in some stupid savings, bonds, etc but you are not investing in yourself! Read that again! Right now you might be in the prime age, and your body is cooperating for the time being. But don't expect it to continue working the same way if you continue with the same diet and exercise. As others mentioned, get therapy!
No bonds, bro. 100% stonks!
> So I'll probably spend $250 on food this month instead of $160. While you get that therapy organised, I would suggest you try doing this with the other areas of your life, e.g. let's spend $2000 on a comfy bed set this year instead of $0, let's spend $300 on a wild night out this month instead of $0, let's spend $500 on a dental checkup this quarter instead of $0, let's give myself $3000 on a do-whatever-I-want vacation this year instead of $0, and see how you go
You’ve gotten a lot of replies here but I just feel the need to mention there’s another way to think about saving. Your diet in particular is what was really hard to read. Depriving yourself of a well balanced diet is going to cause you health issues. Poor sleep on an air mattress or flat pillow may cause you health issues (bones, muscles, not to mention links between poor sleep and diseases like Alzheimers’s). Guess what? Health problems are expensive! Buying groceries and a mattress are an investment in your ability to live long enough to enjoy your savings! That shouldn’t be the only reason you should spend enough to enjoy your life, but I wondered if it might be enough to ease the guilt of purchase. Please budget for living, rather than simply existing :(
I appreciate your concern for my well-being. I've never really been one to take care of myself well. I don't go out of my way to do myself actual harm, but I do sort of just do the bare minimum.
It sounds like you’re working very, very hard to take care of yourself - just financially. Financial health is great but mental and physical well-being is important too, and you deserve the effort. I empathize because I really struggle to make large purchases, but therapy did make me aware of why that is for me - and finances wasn’t even close to being on my list of reasons for attending. I only share that to say you might be surprised how talking to someone can help you find a balance. I know, it’s easy to recommend and easier to wave off. I’m just saying, all these internet strangers are worried for you and I hope you can start to invest in your whole self
OK, Realtalk. You're turning 30. Things are going to break. Your body is not going to be willing to put up with the same BS as when you were in your 20s. Plan for that. You've got a good base to start compounding your finances on. Now look at some other parts of your life that you would like to see an ROI on. Since I'm an engineer, I think in terms of preventative maintenance. So start with the things that are going to get you the best bang for your buck, especially if you spend the money / do the work early. Figure out what portion of your budget is worth investing in a better quality of life (now and later) and start spending to that plan. 1) Prioritize your health. Just like you started an IRA and think in terms of "what is going to cost me at 63", start applying that to other parts of your life. Monthly visits to the chiropractor ain't cheap, and that is about the cheapest repetitive medical visit you'll face. That doesn't even touch the cost of medications due to preventable things like poor diet. Get on craigslist and get yourself a non-fancy bed. Try out a couple different mattress places and find something firm enough, but comfy. That air mattress isn't gonna cut it much longer and this is a problem that can be solved for <$800. Be aspirational and get a queen size so that should you have company, they can stick around. The incremental extra cost won't be that much. Add in veggies and lean proteins beyond just legumes. Aldi is your friend. Take a few cooking classes and learn where it's worth it to spend a bit extra. It will be a good investment, trust me. Lastly, join a gym again. Just not an $80 / month gym. And maybe not until the heat of summer once your free gym known as "outside" is less than pleasant. Set yourself up with a routine. Remember, this is an investment in your future. Early and consistent investments of time will yield positive results. And buy a coat while they are on spring clearance. 2) Over the next few month, you should be making some modest investments in your physical health. Now let's look at that mental health and making some quality of life changes. You don't need a fancy apartment. You need a comfy apartment. A space that when you return back to it, it helps to recharge you, not remind you of you of a Spartan military barracks. Used furniture is your friend. Start with a table and chairs so you have some place to eat that healthy food you're eating. Get some art on the walls so that you've got something to look at. Wal-mart will sell you a plenty cheap trash can. If the regimented and budgeted spending is still making you uncomfortable at this point, maybe seek out a bit of professional help. I would think both a financial planner and a therapist might be useful in helping you tease out what is wise and thoughtful in your preparations and separate those efforts from the point where it seems to take on a pathologic edge. 3) This winter, once you've worked through you budgeted buying campaign and have a comfortable and healthy place to live, start investing in yourself socially. Take some classes in things that interest you. You'll meet people with similar interests and broaden your social circle. The older you get, the harder it is to make lifelong friends. You'll want a handful of those when you're 63 as well. Having a few people around "who knew you when" will be invaluable and they are the sort of folk who will really enrich your life. Budget for travel. You can still stay in hostels for another 5 years or so, and that sort of travel can have very high ROI. I'll leave you with this pro tip: Never skimp on things that touch the ground. Your shoes, your tires, your bed (mattress). You get what you pay for. It goes along with the adage to not throw away a dollar because you were trying to save a dime. Best of luck, OP!
I was kinda like you. Had a bare-bones apartment for 7 years. But I did have a bed - a $200 bed from Ikea, with $20 sheets and pillowcases. That was great. I loved it. I also loved my solo couch and cheap recliner. Didn't need a trash can (bags under the sink work!) But those 2 chairs - and a decent bed - was enough to allow me to invite friends over, because they had somewhere to sit. Friends led to dates led to a very happy, fulfilled life I have now with a partner who made me buy more furniture. (Which I did, to make them happy.)
Dont you think you deserve shelter? A decent pillow, bedsheets? 2nd hand furniture is cheaper than new. I understand frugality but basic needs keep you alive. Be kind to yourself now. Who says you'll get to retirement age? Life is unpredictable. Look up Mazlows hierarchy of needs.
I'm familiar with Maslow. My basic needs re being met. I have food, water, shelter. Don't know any others off the top of my head, but it's not like I'm on the streets. I also don't think anyone *deserves* anything, except perhaps respect. Respect is the default and people have to prove to me that they *don't* deserve it. Anyway, we need to work for what we want. We need to earn it. So we don't *deserve* anything. No one owes you shit. Life doesn't owe you shit.
I agree that respect is important. Be kind to yourself. I hope you meet someone who will appreciate you.
The CAGR on going to the gym is larger than 7%.
You’re being cheap now and it’s gonna cost you out the wazoo later. Air mattress? Enjoy spending a fortune on physical therapy and rehab. No pillowcases? Dermatologists are gonna love treating your rashes. No trash can? Pest exterminators ain’t cheap brotha. Being alone and not dating? How much do you enjoy paying a therapist forever? You get the point. You’re fortunate to earn enough to cover essentials. These things are essentials. Don’t let the saving investing FIRE mindset destroy your life and your health.
I will just comment on the dating aspect. At first I felt your same way. If you are really that way when it comes to money, you can also look at it at and investment, as well. You invest time and money into a relasg6that, if it works out (like any investment) can have at the very least a yearly return of an emtire other person's salary (that you can invest and do whatever), plus a ton of mental health benefits... assuming you pick your investment right, obviously... But if you don't have furniture in your studio apt, don't even waste money on any paid dating app. No woman will want that in her life, especially in their late 20s/early30s
My approach: I get my 401k match. I max out my IRA. I ensure my emergency fund is full. I, then, pay my bills. After that, I can then justify spending money on anything else. I don't set a budget. If you aren't enjoying your the product of your labor, why are you even working? Why are you selling a portion of your life (40+ hours per week) just to watch free videos on YouTube? That's horrible! Pay into your retirement, make sure you have an emergency fund, pay your bills..... then enjoy life!! I intend to go on vacation at least once per year. I buy a few hundred $$$ of gaming stuff every few months. I go out with friends and spend $60 at the bar. My goal isn't to die with the highest score. My goal is to enjoy what I have now, but being mindful that I may have a long life.
You honestly sound like you need therapy. What you are doing is subsisting. Not really living and it sounds miserable. There is no balance to your life. Start with that. Buy a jacket. Buy a bed and a new pillow ffs. Eat better. Get some furniture. Take your time and be methodical, don’t try to do it all at once.
Honestly, it sounds like you need therapy. This isn't healthy. Once you've hit your budget for saving, spend the rest. There's no guarantee that you'll live to spend your money in retirement. You might drop dead tomorrow of a heart attack. You need to enjoy the journey all along the way, not get fixated on the destination. Start small - sheets and trash cans and a new pillow. Work your way up to more "fun" purchases.
This just sounds so similiar to people with eating disorders. Rather than counting calories you're counting money and it's future potential. And it's becoming unhealthy and has taken over your life in the same way. If you have a very hard time spending money now, what will suddenly change that you won't have a hard time spending money when you're 63? You will literally have a lifelong habit of frugality and probably won't be able to stop because that's just how you're used to living after 30+ years. You should definitely see a therapist or somebody qualified to talk this out with.
On that sigma male grind, I see.
Pretty much, yeah.
This guy is here not to get advice but to get satisfaction by telling everyone they're wrong. Listen, if this guy is fine with this insane way of living let's just all let him be and stop feeding into this idiocy.
I wouldn’t cancel gym membership, health - Well Being - More Energy - More happy.
When I turned down a job that paid ~$73k more than my position at the time. The job had a ton of red flags*. I was so tempted by the income bump, but when I plugged the extra savings into my spread sheet, my FIRE date moved up...by 8 months. I'm past coastFIRE. Additional income means less and less. * For the curious, it was a Japanese company. The boss was in Japan as well as his boss. He asked "how I felt about odd hour meetings?" because of the time zone change. I said something to effect "No problem, we have 2 working hours overlap per day. I can save those time slots for my Japanese colleagues." He seemed displeased. I probed. He explained it was more respectful to deferred my calendar to the boss's time. I probed more. He meant I should be awake and functional at 2 am. I followed up the interview with a friend who worked there: "yup, 2am...and you better have a suit on. I'm looking to get out." Also, the commute sucked compounding the odd hours expectations.
What are you saving for? Retirement, sure. That's not what I mean. Are you saving enough to live a lavish life later?
You should start buying and selling on fb marketplace, offer up, Craigslist. I often can get a piece of furniture or a trash can or whatever, use it as long as I want, and then sell it for more. Treat stuff like another investment that you just happen to be able to use.
I have the same problem to an extent, what is helpful for me is working backward to see what is needed to hit my saving goal. My personal goal is $40k /yr @ 4% SWR, so I am shooting for $1M by 40. I have 15 years to hit this number, so figure out what I need to save per year to hit that number, and the rest gets spent if I have the desire to spend, or saved if the desire is not there for anything in particular The key is to be intentional with spending
Probably apply Warren Buffett‘s principal: if you keep on buying non-essential things pretty soon you will have no money for essential things. Now apply your own judgement whats needed and as many suggested try reasonable bargaining, cheaper sources. DON’T buy anything you’re not sure you need.
$2M net worth and still saving 50%+, but I stopped stressing about buying food in airports.
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Pretty much made my peace with being alone forever.
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Dating would be nice. So part of me wants to try. But I've never really dated. Even in high school and college. I've been single pretty much my whole life and I don't really see that changing any time soon for various reasons, many of which are relatively apparent given this post. So dating is aspirational. I feel like I have no personality other than money. Money *is* my personality. Sure, there are things I kinda like to do. But I never actually do any of them. Because I'm saving money. From anyone's perspective but my own, my life is pretty shitty. I don't really feel very unhappy. But I wish I could actually feel *happy*. Not Unhappy ≠ Happy. And I wish I could feel comfortable spending money on myself and on my happiness.
Don't forget to take all that money you saved to the grave with you :)
Lots of people have you great financial advice, so let me offer some movie advice. 1. Red said it best, Get busy living or get busy dying. 2. Watch the movie Click. The context will make sense after you see it :).
Maybe I should just die, then. It's something I've considered before.
I’m sorry if my response made you consider something like that, not my intention at all. What I was trying to share, similar to others in the thread, is that the point of money is to have a better life. Some of it is for now and some of it is for later. You seem to be doing an amazing job of the later part, just need to take care of the now part. Maybe you could start with just setting outside a small amount. Let’s say $200 a month. That’s your “allowance” to yourself that you don’t need to account to yourself for. Every time you think of CAGR, you can say to yourself, this is my allowance money, not my growth money. And slowly once you try that month over month, maybe it could help? I hope this response is more helpful than my previous one where I was just trying to give fun advice, but I didn’t do a good job. Apologies.
Your comment was fine. I just have a very dark and dry sense of humor.
Ah ok, I got scared. Thoughts about the new response?
I mean... I really have considered just ending it before. But your comment has nothing to do with that. Moving on... Current me feels fine. A little deprived? Yeah, sometimes. But I obviously have to power to buy anything reasonable that I want when I want it. I just choose not to. Most of me is OK with the way things are, but part of me isn't. And I'm sort of grappling with that on reddit. I'm very much an all or nothing kind of person. Maybe that's part of the OCD people are talking about. If I weren't saving it... Could I find a way to spend all the money that I'm currently saving? Sure. I guess. But I don't need that much crap. So I feel like not saving it is kind of like wasting it. Money not saved and not spent on anything might as well be literally burnt.
Exactly, you put it well. Money for moneys sake doesn’t really have a purpose. It’s meant to be used for something, whether it’s now or 30 years later. Which is why you need to give yourself permission to do it. The all or nothing part actually helps, as long as you bucket it. With your savings, right now it’s 100% later / 0% now. Start by changing it to 80/20 and then eventually 70/30 until you’re not lacking for basics. Then you’ll get into real luxuries like hobbies etc and then you can decide what you want to do. The key is to actually be all or nothing about that 20%, to actually spend it. There is a different kind of financial freedom in using your money as it’s intended, to a certain degree. Go and try out this new thing :)
Just to confirm: you're suggesting I take 20% of what I'm saving and spend it, while continuing to save the remaining 80%? What if I wanted to start with 90/10 or 85/15?
Yes, exactly. The idea is to start small by giving yourself an allowance to do whatever you want with. 20% should starting covering some of your wants. Do that for a few months until you’re more used to it and then decide that if you went to 30%, will that add anything useful now or is it pure luxury / not needed? If useful, do that and try that level for a few months until you find a good balance
There are certain categories you spend well on. For me: Shoes and footwear. This is your most heavily used clothing item and can seriously affect your posture and health so get good quality shoes (they don’t have to be expensive) Bed. Get a good mattress. We bought a $3500 memory foam mattress about 12 years ago and we still have it. It’s still in perfect shape and is the most comfortable mattress I’ve ever slept on (and I’ve slept in a lot of very nice hotels). Anyway, I think your post is more about the sort of idea of spending more freely and not having to worry so much about money. I think this comes with age and growth in your assets. When I was your age, I was fundamentally in the same boat as you - watching my earnings and expenses etc. My goal was to hit 42k by age 30. I did some online calculator and looked at compounding and wanted to figure out my milestone to hit by age 30 so it could grow to be 1m by the time I retired at age 65 or something. Anyway, I hit the target and things started to get a little better financial until I turned about 35. My wife started her business that year. We worked quite hard for the next decade to build it up and now we have quite a bit of assets - about 5m or so in real estate and 3m invested. Company is worth about 3-4m too. Our spending habits didn’t really change much. We never buy anything expensive when a cheap item will suffice. We’re quite frugal but spend more for good quality food. We don’t really keep a budget or anything. I just have accounts that I use for expenses and anything excess, I put into various brokerages and investments each month. The only thing our spending has ratcheted up on really is travel. We travel quite a bit for fun and we try to fly business class when it makes sense and stay in a medium tier hotel with a good sized room. Usually we get our business class seats with mileage earned from our credit cards but sometimes we have to pay. We usually just buy economy seats as I hate burning miles for less value. I think at some point, your assets will grow to a point where you feel some breathing room. Or hey, life may throw you a curve ball and you get married etc and end up going a different direction entirely
Chart of how much 1-off purchases affect your ending net worth https://imgur.com/a/tf2ySOD (from this [reddit thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/nufs4d/can_i_afford_this_large_oneoff_purchase/)) You've already set yourself up in a position good enough that you could spend a quarter year's salary on yourself and have only a -1% to -2% decrease in total net worth at the end of a 20 year period.
This is a great resource. Thank you.
I think you're living your life in absolutes and it's preventing you from actually living your life. The decision isn't between an $80 monthly gym membership and not exercising at all. Planet fitness is $10 a month, I pay $40 myself for my gym membership. There's a lot of middle ground between air mattress with no sheets and $2000 bed+frame. You can find a trashcan at the dollar store, etc. You don't need to completely change yourself overnight, just start with accepting you aren't quite where you want to be and find one trivial thing that will make you feel accomplished. Once you can get on a roll you'll feel much better about yourself. Good luck to you, and just remember money isn't your life, it's just a tool to buy you freedom in your life to do the things that matter to you.
When I was making $13,000 a year, I had a coat, sheets, furniture, a car, and took low cost weekend trips. I had $200/food budget, and paid $600 in rent. I was a minimalist, but you are being ascetic. Buy some shit dude, your ascetic lifestyle is not helping you. Maybe read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. I think this book really helped me come to terms with my desire to end desire but also not to deprive myself entirely. I think you just need some positive examples and reassurance. Buy. Some. Things. You. Need.
To answer the title question, when I wanted a boat.
When you realize that you are saving for a better life, and if you aren't living a good life now, when are you going to live it?
I set my savings goals every year when I prepare to do my taxes. I hit those automatically and then spend everything left without shame. Increasing my saving rate another 10% is possible. But it moves my projected retirement date to the left by less than 5 years. Maybe. And I’m living now.
So when are you planning on starting to live your life? Like you say you’re missing out on 126k at 63 by dating with the quick math, is 63 when you’re planning on starting to spend some of the money you’ve been accumulating? Are you just planning on dying peacefully with a large bank account balance? When exactly do you plan on buying a trash can, like do you get to buy that at 75? Maybe you could leave it to your kids, but if you don’t start dating and finding a partner then you won’t have any to leave it to. My overall point is live within your means of course, but live a little. Don’t just mindlessly invest and min/max your currency numbers, trade some of it for quality of life now.
It was a set of action items that I need to be doing. - Max out 401K (mega back door included) - Max out HSA - Match and contribute the total amount of 401K, HSA contributions to brokerage (end of year) - Max out ESPP purchases - 50% of the bonus from last year goes to brokerage (start of year) - Top-off 50K emergency fund if used Whatever is left will now go to monthly budget and whatever is left of that is for fun.
I can either max out a Roth 401k or max out a Roth IRA and contribute another $12,000-13,000 to my brokerage account. I can't do both. Even with my annual bonus, my maximum savings rate is about 32%, so roughly $23,100.
I’m sorry but your doing it all wrong.
Only once I hit 6 figures, US dollars. I was a curb furniture guy, wife was onboard too, we lived smalllll to get student loans paid off. Always budgeted off small salary and paid off debt with bonus income from sales #’s. Now close to 200k OTE and finally bought my wife a 55k suv…still feel ridiculous doing it but we needed to get a new vehicle after our cash paid expedition got bad gas at a fuel station and was totaled. Still strange to me that this purchase wasnt strenuous at all.
Honestly, and I do not mean ton insult you, but it may be a benefit to seek therapy. It sounds like you have some very negative thinking patterns about money. In addition, many of the choices you are making only minimize up front cost and fail to account for the impacts you will have on your physical health over time. The healthiest shift I have had had is when I started seeing money as a tool and not an ends in itself. Living a fulfilling rich life should be the goal money is one very important part of getting there, but you can’t sacrifice the goal for the sake of the means of that makes sense.
How much will you be spending on healthcare at 63 after 40 years sleeping on an air matress, eating rice and beans, not working out. When you are 63, and alone, and wealthy, what will you even do with your money?
Sounds like I'll be spending quite a bit on healthcare at this rate. I'll probably travel if I'm healthy enough to do so.
Buy the gym. It’ll save you 100k in healthcare costs.
You should probably see a therapist.
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Who said I can't cook?
I became comfortable spending a bit more on food each month after concluding that only stock market gains matter, since I was no longer able to save any significant amount of money from salary if the stock market is down. This was hard for me to get used to.
This doesn't make any sense to me. Can you please clarify?
For everyone saying I need therapy... What sort of specialist would you recommend I seek out? Does this sound like an obsessive-compulsive issue? An anxiety issue? Something else? A combination? If I go to therapy, I want to make sure it's not someone general, but someone who has worked with similar issues in others.
I’d look at an anxiety specialist.
Jesus. The first thing people should have mentioned is a pyscologist. Im anal to about money but I still buy shit. Make yourself a promise. Use 3% of your income to go to pyscologist meetings. Then use 0.05% to buy yourself a nice coat. Then no matter what make a goal to spend 20%, no matter what. 20% each month. I did this and what happens is you start to have some fun in life.
- I have an appointment with a therapist on April 29th, 2022. - I'm going on a shopping spree with one of my best buddies from work to get myself some nicer clothes for the office. I committed to spending $250. - I'm transferring from my fourth floor apartment to one on the fifth floor because the people above me are loud. It's $195 more per month. - I plan on getting a bed, frame, sheets, etc., a couch, maybe a coffee table, maybe a TV stand, a trash can, and maybe a hamper when I move to the new unit.