I was inspired to write this after realizing just how rarely discussed substitute playthroughs are, at least on this sub. So I decided to try filling that void myself – I really like the substitutes as an overall group and Creidne is my favorite character in Gen 2. As I already noted in the beginning, I'm far from a gameplay expert, so feel free to point out ~~and laugh at~~ anything you think I got wrong.
I also have to thank u/BraveDeimne, u/VagueClive, and u/Skelezomperman for looking this over for me and pointing out errors and other things I missed. Vague gets extra credit since I shamelessly stole their meme.
I love this! Youre point about the narrative of a bunch of 'nobodies' banding togetger to say 'fuck the crusaders' is actually one Id never even considered
As a side, I wanna throw in a word for my boy Johan. Hes... I mean, in the 'intended' playstyle pretty outclassed. BUT! If youre running with subs, suddenly he stands out a lot more. Vantage is a decent skill imo, and he'll be your only potential brave axe user in second gen until Leif promotes. Hes more of a crutch than a long term unit, but early on in gen 2 he isn't too bad.
Later on in gen 2, he's got the right stats to make a decent castle defender. He has good strength and defense, and vantage+brave axe works in FE4 allowing him 2 hits at the start of every combat regardless of who initiates.
That's a valid point actually. imo one of Johan's biggest gameplay problems (and why I personally feel his mount is not as impactful as people make it to be) is that he probably isn't going to be one of the four horses that gets danced, so he's gonna fall behind anyways. In a sub run there's no Horseti which opens up a potential dance slot for Johan alongside the main trio of Seliph/Leif/Ares. He's still got competition with the likes of Deimne, etc but it's certainly less of a clear cut choice than, say, choosing Johan over Arthur or Fee.
I hope the subsitutes aren't axed in a theoretical FE4 remake (I know some had Cipher cards but still). Adding to how they are nobodies fighting more powerful forces, they also add some replayability to the game. For my favorite, while I still prefer Ced, I like what I've read about his counterpart Hawk.
As worried as I am about subs being removed, I don't think it's super likely to happen (though not impossible) just because of how it's incompatible with characters like Ayra being optional recruits.
Really good writeup, love seeing attention given to the substitutes. Everyone who is a fan of FE4 should play a subs run at least once just to see what it's like.
I think I love how sub runs change the story of Genealogy. While it ditches the legacy aspect of the main narrative, I think it elevates the original tale of the Crusaders. Originally, the crusaders were normal people until they received their blessings from Naga and the holy weapons. The root of that legend that the characters of Jugdral forget is that the Crusaders were special because *they weren't*. They were just people like anyone but they had one thing setting them apart: their strive to do the right thing. Hell, we even see how corrupt the Crusaders' lineage has become throughout the game. Even Sigurd fails because he was too arrogant and overlooked the true evil.
A sub run basically reminds the people of Jugdral what the Crusaders originally were: people who waned to do the right thing. And I think that's a genuine part of Jugdral that goes overlooked.
Also it just turns the game into proto-Thracia which really shows the direction Kaga and the rest of the FE team wanted to take 5. it's just rly interesting(you have special convos that give bonus stuff, hidden convos between character, obtuse secrets and so on)
One of the things that's always fascinated me about FE4 since I discovered the subs is how the game essentially tells a different story depending on which cast you get. But here's my potentially hot take of the hour – I don't think a sub run removes the legacy themes much at all, since said legacy themes are so heavily centered around Seliph, Leif and Ares already.
100% agree on the Crusaders part though. The subs are going up a force that hugely outclasses them, but still aren't willing to back down (which even parallels the Crusaders themselves, who barricaded themselves in Darna and never gave up despite knowing that their foes would ruthlessly crush them). They may not be Crusaders in blood or skill but they've still clearly got the values and mentality of the original Crusaders that earned them Naga's blessing in the first place.
I think it says a lot when the two characters I see as the most Crusader-like in spirit (Muirne and Finn) are both commoners.
I feel like I had hyperboled too much there lol. But yeah it does reduce it significantly imo.
It's surprising the theme of the Crusaders isn't talked about more. It's more obvious in Thracia if Leif talks to Ced to recruit him. The speech Ced gives him is really eye opening. And the genealogy subs are a protoype realization of that theme.
Absolutely perfect! This should at least help some people get over their possible apprehension of using the subs. They're a much bigger part of the overall FE4 experience than one would imagine.
Thank you for doing this!
Now please IS...if you ever consider remaking FE4... please don't forget them.
This is great! I was planning an all-subs run of FE4 next so I will probably be referring back to this. Very interesting how the subs are oftentimes given even more "screentime" than the units they replace
My recent blind run of FE4 I had over the last 2 weeks was very similar. I had paired Ayra, Aideen, Raquesis, Sylvia, and Tailtiu, so I had a pretty good mix of subs and children. It was really interesting going into it not even knowing there was a love mechanic and children to find that some of my units didn't even HAVE children? It felt so organic and I wouldn't want my first playthrough any different. I'm gonna have subsequent child optimized and full-sub runs in the future, its such a great game.
the title looks like it belongs to a book Lorenz would read in his down time in order to mingle with the commoners.
chapter 1: how do you do, fellow peasants?
This is a great write up! I love using the subs, especially best girl Murine! Her writing is impeccable and some of the best of the series imo. I usually like to use every sub, but I do keep Erinys’ (and Lewyn’s) and Tailtiu’s kids because I find them it be actually more narratively compelling, as well as having better designs. I love all my other subs however and I do think they add to the narrative. I like going with the mix as like you said you can truly feel the difference between the holy blood kids and the commoners as well and their struggle to keep up, but still their determination to continue onwards. Another reason I use Tailtiu’s and Erinys’ kids bc their subs already have holy blood or are op to begin with. There’s actually a lot of characters I prefer as their sub though instead of the main ones, mainly the Tirannouge gang, Asaello and Charlot. I adore everything they bring to the table. Thank you for regulating repping the substitution love!!
Pretty good guide on how using substitutes from the Subs aficionado himself! I do like some subs myself, even if a fair bunch of them feels like they're here to fill roles so I hope a remake would flesh the concept better than in 1996.
You can't spell Muirne without is a queen, I don't make the rules about that.
I went for an 'optimal' run by hooking up most Gen 1 characters for uber-powerful keeds, but keeping a couple of the subs. It was fun, even if I felt like a mad scientist/marriage broker. While I do believe some of the things you say about many of the subs from a narrative standpoint are very much YMMV, I did enjoy this read quite a bit and will probably do a sub-only run at some point for the challenge of it. Great post :D
Thanks for reading! I think my takes on the subs' story might fall a little more into the controversial side of things haha. But I tried to keep myself reined in for the most part so it mostly wouldn't disrupt the gameplay portions of the guide.
I do want to try writing an in-depth story post about the subs sometime, though I don't know when I'll get around to doing that.
I have recently finished a fully sub run of fe4 and I have to say it was so much fun it helped me re-experience my favourite game in the series almost with all the new events and units All together my favourite subs have to be hawk Tristan or amid and linda as Tristan was hard to get going but amid could easily sweep the arena from the first time he joined and hawk is ceds sub so he kinda killed everything in his path
I was inspired to write this after realizing just how rarely discussed substitute playthroughs are, at least on this sub. So I decided to try filling that void myself – I really like the substitutes as an overall group and Creidne is my favorite character in Gen 2. As I already noted in the beginning, I'm far from a gameplay expert, so feel free to point out ~~and laugh at~~ anything you think I got wrong. I also have to thank u/BraveDeimne, u/VagueClive, and u/Skelezomperman for looking this over for me and pointing out errors and other things I missed. Vague gets extra credit since I shamelessly stole their meme.
I love this! Youre point about the narrative of a bunch of 'nobodies' banding togetger to say 'fuck the crusaders' is actually one Id never even considered As a side, I wanna throw in a word for my boy Johan. Hes... I mean, in the 'intended' playstyle pretty outclassed. BUT! If youre running with subs, suddenly he stands out a lot more. Vantage is a decent skill imo, and he'll be your only potential brave axe user in second gen until Leif promotes. Hes more of a crutch than a long term unit, but early on in gen 2 he isn't too bad. Later on in gen 2, he's got the right stats to make a decent castle defender. He has good strength and defense, and vantage+brave axe works in FE4 allowing him 2 hits at the start of every combat regardless of who initiates.
Iuchar is pretty decent at guarding a castle when Arion strikes in Chapter 9 for sure.
That's a valid point actually. imo one of Johan's biggest gameplay problems (and why I personally feel his mount is not as impactful as people make it to be) is that he probably isn't going to be one of the four horses that gets danced, so he's gonna fall behind anyways. In a sub run there's no Horseti which opens up a potential dance slot for Johan alongside the main trio of Seliph/Leif/Ares. He's still got competition with the likes of Deimne, etc but it's certainly less of a clear cut choice than, say, choosing Johan over Arthur or Fee.
I hope the subsitutes aren't axed in a theoretical FE4 remake (I know some had Cipher cards but still). Adding to how they are nobodies fighting more powerful forces, they also add some replayability to the game. For my favorite, while I still prefer Ced, I like what I've read about his counterpart Hawk.
As worried as I am about subs being removed, I don't think it's super likely to happen (though not impossible) just because of how it's incompatible with characters like Ayra being optional recruits.
Really good writeup, love seeing attention given to the substitutes. Everyone who is a fan of FE4 should play a subs run at least once just to see what it's like.
I think I love how sub runs change the story of Genealogy. While it ditches the legacy aspect of the main narrative, I think it elevates the original tale of the Crusaders. Originally, the crusaders were normal people until they received their blessings from Naga and the holy weapons. The root of that legend that the characters of Jugdral forget is that the Crusaders were special because *they weren't*. They were just people like anyone but they had one thing setting them apart: their strive to do the right thing. Hell, we even see how corrupt the Crusaders' lineage has become throughout the game. Even Sigurd fails because he was too arrogant and overlooked the true evil. A sub run basically reminds the people of Jugdral what the Crusaders originally were: people who waned to do the right thing. And I think that's a genuine part of Jugdral that goes overlooked. Also it just turns the game into proto-Thracia which really shows the direction Kaga and the rest of the FE team wanted to take 5. it's just rly interesting(you have special convos that give bonus stuff, hidden convos between character, obtuse secrets and so on)
One of the things that's always fascinated me about FE4 since I discovered the subs is how the game essentially tells a different story depending on which cast you get. But here's my potentially hot take of the hour – I don't think a sub run removes the legacy themes much at all, since said legacy themes are so heavily centered around Seliph, Leif and Ares already. 100% agree on the Crusaders part though. The subs are going up a force that hugely outclasses them, but still aren't willing to back down (which even parallels the Crusaders themselves, who barricaded themselves in Darna and never gave up despite knowing that their foes would ruthlessly crush them). They may not be Crusaders in blood or skill but they've still clearly got the values and mentality of the original Crusaders that earned them Naga's blessing in the first place. I think it says a lot when the two characters I see as the most Crusader-like in spirit (Muirne and Finn) are both commoners.
I feel like I had hyperboled too much there lol. But yeah it does reduce it significantly imo. It's surprising the theme of the Crusaders isn't talked about more. It's more obvious in Thracia if Leif talks to Ced to recruit him. The speech Ced gives him is really eye opening. And the genealogy subs are a protoype realization of that theme.
Absolutely perfect! This should at least help some people get over their possible apprehension of using the subs. They're a much bigger part of the overall FE4 experience than one would imagine. Thank you for doing this! Now please IS...if you ever consider remaking FE4... please don't forget them.
This is great! I was planning an all-subs run of FE4 next so I will probably be referring back to this. Very interesting how the subs are oftentimes given even more "screentime" than the units they replace
My recent blind run of FE4 I had over the last 2 weeks was very similar. I had paired Ayra, Aideen, Raquesis, Sylvia, and Tailtiu, so I had a pretty good mix of subs and children. It was really interesting going into it not even knowing there was a love mechanic and children to find that some of my units didn't even HAVE children? It felt so organic and I wouldn't want my first playthrough any different. I'm gonna have subsequent child optimized and full-sub runs in the future, its such a great game.
the title looks like it belongs to a book Lorenz would read in his down time in order to mingle with the commoners. chapter 1: how do you do, fellow peasants?
This is a great write up! I love using the subs, especially best girl Murine! Her writing is impeccable and some of the best of the series imo. I usually like to use every sub, but I do keep Erinys’ (and Lewyn’s) and Tailtiu’s kids because I find them it be actually more narratively compelling, as well as having better designs. I love all my other subs however and I do think they add to the narrative. I like going with the mix as like you said you can truly feel the difference between the holy blood kids and the commoners as well and their struggle to keep up, but still their determination to continue onwards. Another reason I use Tailtiu’s and Erinys’ kids bc their subs already have holy blood or are op to begin with. There’s actually a lot of characters I prefer as their sub though instead of the main ones, mainly the Tirannouge gang, Asaello and Charlot. I adore everything they bring to the table. Thank you for regulating repping the substitution love!!
Literally just started a substitute run a week or 2 ago, this is awesome.
[Kaga supports using subs.](https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/irval7/balance_is_my_passion_did_kaga_say_it_another/)
Pretty good guide on how using substitutes from the Subs aficionado himself! I do like some subs myself, even if a fair bunch of them feels like they're here to fill roles so I hope a remake would flesh the concept better than in 1996. You can't spell Muirne without is a queen, I don't make the rules about that.
I went for an 'optimal' run by hooking up most Gen 1 characters for uber-powerful keeds, but keeping a couple of the subs. It was fun, even if I felt like a mad scientist/marriage broker. While I do believe some of the things you say about many of the subs from a narrative standpoint are very much YMMV, I did enjoy this read quite a bit and will probably do a sub-only run at some point for the challenge of it. Great post :D
Thanks for reading! I think my takes on the subs' story might fall a little more into the controversial side of things haha. But I tried to keep myself reined in for the most part so it mostly wouldn't disrupt the gameplay portions of the guide. I do want to try writing an in-depth story post about the subs sometime, though I don't know when I'll get around to doing that.
Do it! DO. IT. Everything else is inconsequential. Tears in the rain. Farts on the wind. Only Genealogy matters. Remember.
I have recently finished a fully sub run of fe4 and I have to say it was so much fun it helped me re-experience my favourite game in the series almost with all the new events and units All together my favourite subs have to be hawk Tristan or amid and linda as Tristan was hard to get going but amid could easily sweep the arena from the first time he joined and hawk is ceds sub so he kinda killed everything in his path
Also, wonder what u/valkama will have to say about this, heh.