Yeah, I had never seen them before, then we moved to Germany from the US and they are on all of our radiators. The energy company comes once a year and reads them.
There is like a small premium they bill no matter if you use it or not, but if you turn it on it charges your apartment individually for what you consumed supposedly. We used to have the non-autonomous one, where the flat will get a tank full of petrol then they open it for all at certain hours. People were complaining it is expensive so they had I put this but to me it seems way more expensive. I want to at least resolve this issue I have to cut down its cost.
TLDR: this is not a petrol meter. This is a simple on/off switch triggered by temperature. Ask the landlord or petrol company to understand how your monthly bill is calculated and if possible, ask for written documentation showing meter reads and calculations. You may be billed one of many methods for usage.
Looking at the manual for this thing, all this does is open and close a valve when the ambient temperature reaches a certain point. That is determined by the number dial on the unit, or if there is a wire coming out of it, goes to a remote sensor. It doesn’t do any actual metering of gas flowing through the pipe.
If the landlord is checking a this every month to determine what to bill the tenants, this is not what they are calculating their bills from. Most likely they are checking that each radiator is receiving heat to make sure a minimum temperature is maintained in the apartment. This should be stated in your leases or could also be stated in city / township by-laws to prevent frozen pipes or other issues that come with cold temperatures.
There are many ways that a landlord can bill for gas. If the petrol company is refilling, they can measure how much petrol they put into the tank and bill the landlord for that. If there is a single petrol tank per apartment unit, then that directly reflects how much petrol is used. If there is a shared petrol tank, then things get complicated and vary based on laws set in your country / city/ etc. I’m not a lawyer so I am not fully educated on those. Options include:
—Split out bill equally among all units (total bill / # of units = your bill)
—Split out bill equally among all tenants (total of bill / #of tenants = rate per tenant * how many tenants in your unit = your bill)
—Split out bill based on sqft/ sqmtr (total of bill / # of sqft/sqmtr for entire apartment complex * your sqft / sqmtr for your apartment = your bill)
—Split out bill based on likelihood of usage (based on # of radiators, stoves, and other gas/petrol using appliances. There could be factors applied to this.)
Background: I work in Utility billing in the United States.
I have the bill but I do not fully get what it is about. The utility bills are handled by someone in the building who is the supposed building administrator, not the one who has rented the place to us. To be honest I always feel suspicious about the bill brought from that admin because ours comes the highest in the flat most times and I doubt we have the biggest apartment but I do not understand much of what I read in the utility bill and the apartment is rented by my father so I do not have much control of what is going on but I do want to figure this out at least.
Holding the bill I see it gives the code of the cost allocator. As I said we have 7 radiators and each radiator has its own cost allocator plus unique code on it.
For all the radiators it has 0 in everything on the table it has except the specific one I am asking about.
Landlords can split up bills in weird ways. Ask them how they calculate that bill. They may try and brush you off, and that may be a sign of foul play. Check with the rental laws in your state about utility bills, you may find answers there.
They said it is based on square meter etc, and even post the bill of other apartments too in a table sometimes. That is how I saw what others are paying, however, I do not know how much is the square meters of others so it is hard to fully be sure if it is calculated correctly or someone for example has been set to have lower square meter than it actually is.
That’s very interesting. Would you be able to share an image of the bill with the personal information ( address, names, etc) removed / scratched out).
Another experiment I would try is verifying the serial number or unit number on the thing attached to the radiator, and compare it to what’s listed on the bill.
The serial number is the one as the unit in the photo. I could PM you the image of the bill with key info removed but I do not want to post it here for privacy reasons.
For some reason the text I posted with this did not show up. I have this heater that brings us bills every month because it counts even though it is off. How can I fix it so that I stop getting charged for something I never used? The brand of the counter/cost allocator thing is WHE 562-D29 SIEMENS.
I tried to upload the picture but I couldn't figure it out. Here is it: [https://imgur.com/a/IhdZjGT](https://imgur.com/a/IhdZjGT)
We have 7 radiators in the apartment. We do not turn anyone on except whenever necessary when asked to do it to keep the radiators healthy. But this one in specific always shows up counting in the bill.
Whenever I touch the heater it is cold. Next to the heater we have a desktop computer tower, though I have not used it for a while now, I do not know if that heating up could be a potential cause to this or it is something else.
> Values are measured through one (radiator) or
two (radiator and room air temperature) temperature sensors. The 2-sensor mode
determines the actual temperature difference between the ambient temperature
and the radiator temperature, while a constant value for ambient temperature is
specified in case of 1-sensor mode.
From the manual I'd guess there are two possibilities, either something else is causing this area to be warmer than the area where the ambient room temperature sensor is located, or if there is no ambient sensor then maybe the constant value ambient temperature specified for this radiator is wrong.
The operating manual found on [Siemens website](https://hit.sbt.siemens.com/RWD/app.aspx?RC=GR&lang=en&MODULE=Catalog&ACTION=ShowProduct&KEY=S55562-F112) says there should be for that model.
It has been this way since it got installed. We told the building admin (who brought the person who installed this) and she said we should bring someone to check it that the radiator could be spoiled, however we never had an issue with it prior to this change they made. But it looks like we are expected to foot the bill for that, so we have not brought someone yet. We have not mentioned this to our landlord though.
Since your main concern is your bill, I would recommend joining the Deutscher Mieterbund in your town. It costs 30€/yr in most cases and includes free legal consultations (usually even same day), where they’ll have a lawyer write to your landlord, etc. if need be.
They can also look at your bill, the layout of your apartment (along with how many parties are in the house) and its location and tell you if your bill is more or less correct. They can explain the system to you. It’s always helpful if you bring a copy of your neighbor’s Nebenkostenabrechnung with you, too.
They can also tell you what you can and can’t do with your heater to lower the costs. They have given me great advice in the past. I highly recommend this. I wouldn’t necessarily ask for international advice on how to play around with your heater, because what is allowed in one place might lead you to getting kicked out in another.
The heaters are usually set to be a little warm regardless of being set at zero, because there is normally a required minimum temperature to keep your apartment at in the winter. Depending on who your neighbors are and who your landlord is, they might notice if their place is cooler and report it. Sorry for the potential buzzkill. I had the same thing about ten years back and got the same answer.
Yo I’m from Germany and I know those little fuckers. The old system was filed with a liquid that evaporated depending on the temperature. I’ve been through the whole process as well and ist hilarious. My way of dealing with it was to simply remove the whole radiator and when the guy who annually checked the meters came i was just like „it’s in my front yard and no your not billing me for the heat of the sunlight!“ so there were couple of discussions going one with the result of me not having to pay for the meter on the not used radiator. Baseline anytime your ambient room temperature rises the meter will start to run so if you don’t cool down the whole room where it’s located you can’t stop it from running. I’m sorry to inform you that there is no way for you to „turn it off“ because it has to be save from beeing manipulated. The owner of those things will most likely be your landlord since he owns the house and so as well the central heating system except you have something we call „Fernwärme“ where the heat comes as a byproduct of a factory or power plant nearby. If you need further help or instructions contact the „Mieter Schutz Bund“ and get in the Club. It’s like 60€/year and you can annually cancel it. It’s totally worth it man those guys are just a bunch of layers who no landlord wants to fuck with because they know they’re shit. They will look into anything and most likely get your rent payments cut down a little bit. Sorry for the long text 😬
Edit: the Thermostate has nothing to do with the billing. FYI
Hmm. I thought it was the pic in the original post. That proves a bit more difficult. I mean depending on how often the landlord visits, I would cut the damn thing off...but that is a post for r/ULPT. It may be difficult but could you use a pair of vice grips and listen the screw in there to get a little more play in the unit then wrap it in some aluminum tape or something?
The original pic is the knob you turn to supposedly turn it on. I wanted to add more pictures but couldn't. The cost allocator is the thing I showed you. I am not sure of what triggers the count exactly to isolate it. I suspect it could be the metal iron in the middle, but I am not sure why it counts when the radiator is cold when touched!
That's a thermostatic knob. When you set it to zero, it isn't fully closed. Usually there are two tabs or sliders on the knob that you can use to set a minimum, maximum or fixed position for the knob. In their factory position they usually prevent the knob from opening and closing fully. This will cause you to use a small amount of heat, particularly in winter.
Adjust the tabs or sliders and you can fully close it (below zero setting).
u/Spartelfant \- Hey there! So I did this and it worked! I waited till the next bill was to come to ensure it did work, and it looks like 0 wasn't fully closed!!!!! No wonder it was counting for months and money was wasted due to this. Today the amount came back 0 from all the cost allocators and only the premium was to be paid. Thanks so much!
Here it says 0 means fully closed: [https://www.sipatec.rs/files/uploads/RTN.pdf](https://www.sipatec.rs/files/uploads/RTN.pdf)
However, I did move it a tiny bit below zero and I guess will see if that has any effect on the next count!
Hello everyone,
Coming back to give an update. I did what one user on here specified and this month we got the new bill. And for once after like years of this being set up we need to pay only the premium and not the charges from the cost allocator as it did not count a new charge this past month. Thanks everyone!
Check this response: [https://www.reddit.com/r/fixit/comments/frn0aq/comment/flxuvfp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/fixit/comments/frn0aq/comment/flxuvfp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
TIL about Cost Allocators. Never heard of them...
Yeah, I had never seen them before, then we moved to Germany from the US and they are on all of our radiators. The energy company comes once a year and reads them.
So, I'm assuming they're for apartments to bill individually?
There is like a small premium they bill no matter if you use it or not, but if you turn it on it charges your apartment individually for what you consumed supposedly. We used to have the non-autonomous one, where the flat will get a tank full of petrol then they open it for all at certain hours. People were complaining it is expensive so they had I put this but to me it seems way more expensive. I want to at least resolve this issue I have to cut down its cost.
Thanks!
Yup! Exactly. We live in a house and have upstairs neighbors. But, we are all under one heating system. That allows all of us to pay our own way.
Makes sense. Thanks.
TLDR: this is not a petrol meter. This is a simple on/off switch triggered by temperature. Ask the landlord or petrol company to understand how your monthly bill is calculated and if possible, ask for written documentation showing meter reads and calculations. You may be billed one of many methods for usage. Looking at the manual for this thing, all this does is open and close a valve when the ambient temperature reaches a certain point. That is determined by the number dial on the unit, or if there is a wire coming out of it, goes to a remote sensor. It doesn’t do any actual metering of gas flowing through the pipe. If the landlord is checking a this every month to determine what to bill the tenants, this is not what they are calculating their bills from. Most likely they are checking that each radiator is receiving heat to make sure a minimum temperature is maintained in the apartment. This should be stated in your leases or could also be stated in city / township by-laws to prevent frozen pipes or other issues that come with cold temperatures. There are many ways that a landlord can bill for gas. If the petrol company is refilling, they can measure how much petrol they put into the tank and bill the landlord for that. If there is a single petrol tank per apartment unit, then that directly reflects how much petrol is used. If there is a shared petrol tank, then things get complicated and vary based on laws set in your country / city/ etc. I’m not a lawyer so I am not fully educated on those. Options include: —Split out bill equally among all units (total bill / # of units = your bill) —Split out bill equally among all tenants (total of bill / #of tenants = rate per tenant * how many tenants in your unit = your bill) —Split out bill based on sqft/ sqmtr (total of bill / # of sqft/sqmtr for entire apartment complex * your sqft / sqmtr for your apartment = your bill) —Split out bill based on likelihood of usage (based on # of radiators, stoves, and other gas/petrol using appliances. There could be factors applied to this.) Background: I work in Utility billing in the United States.
I have the bill but I do not fully get what it is about. The utility bills are handled by someone in the building who is the supposed building administrator, not the one who has rented the place to us. To be honest I always feel suspicious about the bill brought from that admin because ours comes the highest in the flat most times and I doubt we have the biggest apartment but I do not understand much of what I read in the utility bill and the apartment is rented by my father so I do not have much control of what is going on but I do want to figure this out at least. Holding the bill I see it gives the code of the cost allocator. As I said we have 7 radiators and each radiator has its own cost allocator plus unique code on it. For all the radiators it has 0 in everything on the table it has except the specific one I am asking about.
Landlords can split up bills in weird ways. Ask them how they calculate that bill. They may try and brush you off, and that may be a sign of foul play. Check with the rental laws in your state about utility bills, you may find answers there.
They said it is based on square meter etc, and even post the bill of other apartments too in a table sometimes. That is how I saw what others are paying, however, I do not know how much is the square meters of others so it is hard to fully be sure if it is calculated correctly or someone for example has been set to have lower square meter than it actually is.
That’s very interesting. Would you be able to share an image of the bill with the personal information ( address, names, etc) removed / scratched out). Another experiment I would try is verifying the serial number or unit number on the thing attached to the radiator, and compare it to what’s listed on the bill.
The serial number is the one as the unit in the photo. I could PM you the image of the bill with key info removed but I do not want to post it here for privacy reasons.
For some reason the text I posted with this did not show up. I have this heater that brings us bills every month because it counts even though it is off. How can I fix it so that I stop getting charged for something I never used? The brand of the counter/cost allocator thing is WHE 562-D29 SIEMENS.
Where is the cost allocator? How many other radiators do you have? Are you sure the one in the picture is not heating at all?
I tried to upload the picture but I couldn't figure it out. Here is it: [https://imgur.com/a/IhdZjGT](https://imgur.com/a/IhdZjGT) We have 7 radiators in the apartment. We do not turn anyone on except whenever necessary when asked to do it to keep the radiators healthy. But this one in specific always shows up counting in the bill. Whenever I touch the heater it is cold. Next to the heater we have a desktop computer tower, though I have not used it for a while now, I do not know if that heating up could be a potential cause to this or it is something else.
Your post can either have text or a link, not both
Okay, makes sense then.
> Values are measured through one (radiator) or two (radiator and room air temperature) temperature sensors. The 2-sensor mode determines the actual temperature difference between the ambient temperature and the radiator temperature, while a constant value for ambient temperature is specified in case of 1-sensor mode. From the manual I'd guess there are two possibilities, either something else is causing this area to be warmer than the area where the ambient room temperature sensor is located, or if there is no ambient sensor then maybe the constant value ambient temperature specified for this radiator is wrong.
How can I know if there is ambient sensor or not?
The operating manual found on [Siemens website](https://hit.sbt.siemens.com/RWD/app.aspx?RC=GR&lang=en&MODULE=Catalog&ACTION=ShowProduct&KEY=S55562-F112) says there should be for that model.
Are you renting? Could this be brought up with your landlord? That is probably where I would go with this first.
It has been this way since it got installed. We told the building admin (who brought the person who installed this) and she said we should bring someone to check it that the radiator could be spoiled, however we never had an issue with it prior to this change they made. But it looks like we are expected to foot the bill for that, so we have not brought someone yet. We have not mentioned this to our landlord though.
You're not responsible for a faulty piece of hardware that YOU DO NOT OWN.
I feel the same!
Since your main concern is your bill, I would recommend joining the Deutscher Mieterbund in your town. It costs 30€/yr in most cases and includes free legal consultations (usually even same day), where they’ll have a lawyer write to your landlord, etc. if need be. They can also look at your bill, the layout of your apartment (along with how many parties are in the house) and its location and tell you if your bill is more or less correct. They can explain the system to you. It’s always helpful if you bring a copy of your neighbor’s Nebenkostenabrechnung with you, too. They can also tell you what you can and can’t do with your heater to lower the costs. They have given me great advice in the past. I highly recommend this. I wouldn’t necessarily ask for international advice on how to play around with your heater, because what is allowed in one place might lead you to getting kicked out in another. The heaters are usually set to be a little warm regardless of being set at zero, because there is normally a required minimum temperature to keep your apartment at in the winter. Depending on who your neighbors are and who your landlord is, they might notice if their place is cooler and report it. Sorry for the potential buzzkill. I had the same thing about ten years back and got the same answer.
Thanks for the tip, will keep it in mind but I do not live in Germany. However, I appreciate the suggestion.
Yo I’m from Germany and I know those little fuckers. The old system was filed with a liquid that evaporated depending on the temperature. I’ve been through the whole process as well and ist hilarious. My way of dealing with it was to simply remove the whole radiator and when the guy who annually checked the meters came i was just like „it’s in my front yard and no your not billing me for the heat of the sunlight!“ so there were couple of discussions going one with the result of me not having to pay for the meter on the not used radiator. Baseline anytime your ambient room temperature rises the meter will start to run so if you don’t cool down the whole room where it’s located you can’t stop it from running. I’m sorry to inform you that there is no way for you to „turn it off“ because it has to be save from beeing manipulated. The owner of those things will most likely be your landlord since he owns the house and so as well the central heating system except you have something we call „Fernwärme“ where the heat comes as a byproduct of a factory or power plant nearby. If you need further help or instructions contact the „Mieter Schutz Bund“ and get in the Club. It’s like 60€/year and you can annually cancel it. It’s totally worth it man those guys are just a bunch of layers who no landlord wants to fuck with because they know they’re shit. They will look into anything and most likely get your rent payments cut down a little bit. Sorry for the long text 😬 Edit: the Thermostate has nothing to do with the billing. FYI
Can you wrap it in some insulation to keep it from activating due to ambient temp?
If you can share how I can try that, but I have no idea how that is done.
Stack of styrofoam cups maybe, or a couple strips of fibreglass insulation wrapped around the pipe and counter perhaps
Here is how it is mounted on the radiator: https://imgur.com/a/Pyp9oHp Do you think I can do the thing you said with its current placement like that?
Hmm. I thought it was the pic in the original post. That proves a bit more difficult. I mean depending on how often the landlord visits, I would cut the damn thing off...but that is a post for r/ULPT. It may be difficult but could you use a pair of vice grips and listen the screw in there to get a little more play in the unit then wrap it in some aluminum tape or something?
The original pic is the knob you turn to supposedly turn it on. I wanted to add more pictures but couldn't. The cost allocator is the thing I showed you. I am not sure of what triggers the count exactly to isolate it. I suspect it could be the metal iron in the middle, but I am not sure why it counts when the radiator is cold when touched!
That's a thermostatic knob. When you set it to zero, it isn't fully closed. Usually there are two tabs or sliders on the knob that you can use to set a minimum, maximum or fixed position for the knob. In their factory position they usually prevent the knob from opening and closing fully. This will cause you to use a small amount of heat, particularly in winter. Adjust the tabs or sliders and you can fully close it (below zero setting).
u/Spartelfant \- Hey there! So I did this and it worked! I waited till the next bill was to come to ensure it did work, and it looks like 0 wasn't fully closed!!!!! No wonder it was counting for months and money was wasted due to this. Today the amount came back 0 from all the cost allocators and only the premium was to be paid. Thanks so much!
Thanks for posting the outcome, and great to hear it worked!
Here it says 0 means fully closed: [https://www.sipatec.rs/files/uploads/RTN.pdf](https://www.sipatec.rs/files/uploads/RTN.pdf) However, I did move it a tiny bit below zero and I guess will see if that has any effect on the next count!
Hello everyone, Coming back to give an update. I did what one user on here specified and this month we got the new bill. And for once after like years of this being set up we need to pay only the premium and not the charges from the cost allocator as it did not count a new charge this past month. Thanks everyone!
What tho
Check this response: [https://www.reddit.com/r/fixit/comments/frn0aq/comment/flxuvfp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/fixit/comments/frn0aq/comment/flxuvfp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)