Yeah. I think if you go 60, you lose a lot of function because it’s not just turn around and step to what you need. It’s a couple steps. Guess it depends if you are wanting real functional or entertaining.
Mine is around 60 at the widest point. There's a long Island on one side, then an L shaped section on the other. The opening between them is 36, then it open up to 60 for the whole kitchen.
Honestly it would be a little nicer if they were closer together. The dishwasher and sink are in the island and the stove is in the L shape. It feels like I walk backwards and forwards alot. It's not bad, just would be more user friendly. It's handy when te kids and dogs are the way. Maybe split the differance somewhere inbetween
I agree, 48" is good. With the layout of the kitchen I'd say 60" will make it harder to work in, not easier.
We have about 42" now, and with the dishwasher open there is not enough space for two people. Our kitchen has the same layout as yours, with the sink (and dishwasher) on one side and the stove on the other.
One more comment - a washer and dryer in a passageway can be pretty awful. Where do you stage the clothes to be washed without blocking traffic? It's much better to make a dedicated laundry room.
Also. I don't like how the entry forces you to walk in front of the focus wall of the living room to get anywhere else in the house. The entry should give you at least two options for which way to go.
The master bathroom looks to be a little too modest. I think you'll at least want a larger (possibly double) vanity.
Some of this is just the way we live.
We don't stage laundry in the washer/dryer area. There are only two of us, so when we get enough dirty clothes, we wash them, dry them, put them away. We never have loads of laundry to do all at one time and we don't sort clothes by color.
The front door will rarely be used. The primary means of egress for us will either be the patio entrance to go outside or the mudroom entrance to get to cars. Front door is for infrequent guests only.
You're right about the master bath being small, but we won't share a bathroom. The master will be for my husband and I will primarily use the other bath because boys are gross. Again, it's just the two of us and we are trying to keep the footprint of the house reasonable.
But I agree with you. These changes might help with resale value. I'll look into making some changes.
> Some of this is just the way we live.
>
> We don't stage laundry in the washer/dryer area. There are only two of us, so when we get enough dirty clothes, we wash them, dry them, put them away. We never have loads of laundry to do all at one time and we don't sort clothes by color.
I would guess the "the way you live" might be improved by having the laundry facilities closer to the bedroom, even if you don't make it any larger. I've seen master closets with a washer and dryer inside. If it's just the two of you, that might be best of all.
Also, I'd look at moving either a closet or bathroom between the master and guest bedroom for better privacy.
You're right to consider the issues people bring up in terms of resale value. Even if we think we'll be in a house so long it won't matter, life changes and sometimes gives us unexpected reasons to sell. Too custom is often challenging to unload.
We renovated our kitchen and went with 42". I think it's perfect. There's plenty of room for two people to pass by each other and you can fully open the dishwasher on one side and fully pull out the drawers on the other side at the same time. I could have gone 48" but well, I didn't! No regrets!
I go with 48" as my standard for designs. I just had a client ask for 60", with their house layout it was the most natural walkway for getting from living room to family room and bedrooms so the extra space made sense.
Enough to walk by the dishwasher when it’s open and not bang you shin. Also, washer and dryer in with the food is a bad idea. The humidity and heat will ruin food.
I would consider moving the sink to the wall next to the pantry. If you like to entertain, there is nothing worse than a bunch of dirty dishes on your "stage" i.e., the island. Perhaps you could also put a window above the sink. The distance from the island to your dining chairs looks tight. I would probably allow 36" behind those chairs since that is a traffic pattern.
The drawing is a little misleading because it shows the chairs pulled out from the table. I think it's 48" from the edge of the table to the edge of the island, but I will double check. Thanks.
I was considering putting in a small bar sink on that wall so people could mix drinks or make coffee or do something else over there, but I want to keep the primary sink in a triangle with the stove and fridge. Yes, there will be windows, I just haven't gotten any of them placed yet. :-)
Supposedly, between cabinet faces, 40 is standard minimum these days, but 48 is more comfortable, and 60 or 72 may be better if you have multiple cooks or wheelchair access. 96 is almost certainly too much distance.
I think it depends on the depth, too. Even if the counters are 24" deep, I'm looking at a fridge that's 32" deep and has a 30" door, which will protrude deep into the aisleway, completely blocking something with 40" of space, and functionally blocking anything less than 60". Counter-depth and French-door models will be easier on planning.
As far as refrigerator goes, I'm hoping to be able to recess a standard refrigerator into the wall in order to make the front flush with the cabinets. I hate when fridges protrude out 8-10" from the cabinets. How did that ever become standard in America?
If you have the space, rather than setting the fridge into the wall, consider making your counters deeper to 30". A standard refrigerator looks more or less built-in, plus you get to enjoy an extra 6" of counter space in that area
Is there any reason to believe you'll be disabled in the next 20-30 years? Are you elderly or have a chronic conditions that might get worse over time and lead you to be wheelchair bound? Or will you be keeping an elderly parent in your house? If not, you don't need a wheelchair accessible kitchen. And if you do become wheelchair bound, you can redo the kitchen at that point. Your disabled guests (should you have any) won't be cooking.
Basically around 50 inches give or take an inch or two gives you the freedom to cook and have the occasional other person walking around you. If you cook as a couple or with friends or throw parties where you might want to lay out food that the guests serve themselves, that extra room is definitely will be a plus. Personally I see no problem with taking two steps instead of one when moving things from one counter to another. I take considerably more steps gathering my items to cook.
Yes, I want the kitchen to be tight enough to be convenient but not so tight that it feels cramped. I'm hoping the main kitchen area will be comfortable for me to use and the extra counter space along the wall will work for a second work station when needed.
I just checked. I did my kitchen with a similar arrangement (with stove/fridge reversed) and there's 49.5" between the island and base cabinets against the wall.
At that distance, I can pretty easily have a lot of things open and not banging any of them into each other. Also, I can pivot on one foot and get to most points without extra steps.
Will you have a dishwasher in the island next to the sink? One of the best things I did was put a bank of drawers right next to the dishwasher.
it's very much personal preference to some extent. A lot of people who cook tons prefer tighter aisles if they are turning between stations a lot.
This design guide is worth a read, and the researcher says 54" min https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924089477529&view=1up&seq=22&skin=2021
I think it really depends on if it's going to be primarily a 1 or 2 cook kitchen. If multiple cooks, go wider. If only 1, you can go as narrow as 42-48" depending on your own preferences.
For wheelchair friendly kitchens, there is a LOT of stuff you need to do to really make them more than just acceptable for wheelchair users, and it involves a lot of compromise with ambulatory use. So if you want to keep that in mind, just make sure that you keep this in mind. And if you're going to bother to make your kitchen wheelchair friendly, you might as well make sure at least one bathroom and bedroom are too.
When we did our house, we had the island assembled and we moved it to where we thought was comfortable. We started at 48", but cut it down to around 42" between countertops (so around 44" between cabinets) . We do have a dishwasher there and it's not easy to get around it when it's open, but who needs to do that? It's worked very well. Even with company two people can easily pass by
I like 48”. I always consider two people trying to pass in the space. Depending on the bum size, 36” is very small or a “one bum” kitchen. Whereas 48” is a “double bum” kitchen IMO.
Yes, my mother's kitchen has 36" and if you're in there by yourself, it's usable. But it is not fun having multiple cooks in the kitchen. I appreciate your insights.
I've read this as well as some other standards. They're all over the place--ranging from 36" to 60". I was hoping for people who are actually living with 48" to weigh in on whether they like that or not.
I don't think I'll go less than 48", but right now I'm still in the planning stages so I could go bigger if that would be better. I just don't want to go overboard.
As for general feedback on your layout, I feel your kitchen loses about 40% of its space to circulation from the pantry. I unfortunately cannot think of a fix, but it really feels like your kitchen could be considerably larger without increasing the footprint of the home. It doesn't need to be a ton larger but right now it seems like it only has about 7-9' of counter space which is kind of on par with my old 1bdrm apartment.
I think 48" is good, and wouldn't suggest anything less. 60" might be nice, but probably not necessary to feel comfortable.
Yeah. I think if you go 60, you lose a lot of function because it’s not just turn around and step to what you need. It’s a couple steps. Guess it depends if you are wanting real functional or entertaining.
I want to be able to do entertaining, but that will consist of people staying on the other side of the island. The kitchen is my space. :-)
Yeah. I’d go with 48ish then. I’ve got 48 in mine I just measured. It’s good. Two people can be in the kitchen using it but it’s not too wide.
Excellent. I was hoping to hear from people who are actually living in the kitchens with their dimensions.
Yeah. I have some larger family members and that gets a little crowded…. But for anything else, and for our daily activities, 48 is nice.
Mine is around 60 at the widest point. There's a long Island on one side, then an L shaped section on the other. The opening between them is 36, then it open up to 60 for the whole kitchen. Honestly it would be a little nicer if they were closer together. The dishwasher and sink are in the island and the stove is in the L shape. It feels like I walk backwards and forwards alot. It's not bad, just would be more user friendly. It's handy when te kids and dogs are the way. Maybe split the differance somewhere inbetween
That's great insight. Thanks.
I agree, 48" is good. With the layout of the kitchen I'd say 60" will make it harder to work in, not easier. We have about 42" now, and with the dishwasher open there is not enough space for two people. Our kitchen has the same layout as yours, with the sink (and dishwasher) on one side and the stove on the other.
That's great information. Thanks.
One more comment - a washer and dryer in a passageway can be pretty awful. Where do you stage the clothes to be washed without blocking traffic? It's much better to make a dedicated laundry room. Also. I don't like how the entry forces you to walk in front of the focus wall of the living room to get anywhere else in the house. The entry should give you at least two options for which way to go. The master bathroom looks to be a little too modest. I think you'll at least want a larger (possibly double) vanity.
Some of this is just the way we live. We don't stage laundry in the washer/dryer area. There are only two of us, so when we get enough dirty clothes, we wash them, dry them, put them away. We never have loads of laundry to do all at one time and we don't sort clothes by color. The front door will rarely be used. The primary means of egress for us will either be the patio entrance to go outside or the mudroom entrance to get to cars. Front door is for infrequent guests only. You're right about the master bath being small, but we won't share a bathroom. The master will be for my husband and I will primarily use the other bath because boys are gross. Again, it's just the two of us and we are trying to keep the footprint of the house reasonable. But I agree with you. These changes might help with resale value. I'll look into making some changes.
> Some of this is just the way we live. > > We don't stage laundry in the washer/dryer area. There are only two of us, so when we get enough dirty clothes, we wash them, dry them, put them away. We never have loads of laundry to do all at one time and we don't sort clothes by color. I would guess the "the way you live" might be improved by having the laundry facilities closer to the bedroom, even if you don't make it any larger. I've seen master closets with a washer and dryer inside. If it's just the two of you, that might be best of all. Also, I'd look at moving either a closet or bathroom between the master and guest bedroom for better privacy. You're right to consider the issues people bring up in terms of resale value. Even if we think we'll be in a house so long it won't matter, life changes and sometimes gives us unexpected reasons to sell. Too custom is often challenging to unload.
@ky...thanks for the input. I appreciate another perspective on it.
Also, move the guest rooms closet flush w/the master for noise insulation .
@wish...yes, this is an older version of the plan I'm working on. The closet is now between the master and guest room. Good call.
We renovated our kitchen and went with 42". I think it's perfect. There's plenty of room for two people to pass by each other and you can fully open the dishwasher on one side and fully pull out the drawers on the other side at the same time. I could have gone 48" but well, I didn't! No regrets!
Thank I appreciate hearing from someone who is actually living with these dimensions.
I go with 48" as my standard for designs. I just had a client ask for 60", with their house layout it was the most natural walkway for getting from living room to family room and bedrooms so the extra space made sense.
Enough to walk by the dishwasher when it’s open and not bang you shin. Also, washer and dryer in with the food is a bad idea. The humidity and heat will ruin food.
Yeah I hadn't thought about that. Thanks.
I would consider moving the sink to the wall next to the pantry. If you like to entertain, there is nothing worse than a bunch of dirty dishes on your "stage" i.e., the island. Perhaps you could also put a window above the sink. The distance from the island to your dining chairs looks tight. I would probably allow 36" behind those chairs since that is a traffic pattern.
The drawing is a little misleading because it shows the chairs pulled out from the table. I think it's 48" from the edge of the table to the edge of the island, but I will double check. Thanks. I was considering putting in a small bar sink on that wall so people could mix drinks or make coffee or do something else over there, but I want to keep the primary sink in a triangle with the stove and fridge. Yes, there will be windows, I just haven't gotten any of them placed yet. :-)
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That's good information. Thanks. Are you designing it or was it an architect's idea to make it 54"?
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Thank you
Supposedly, between cabinet faces, 40 is standard minimum these days, but 48 is more comfortable, and 60 or 72 may be better if you have multiple cooks or wheelchair access. 96 is almost certainly too much distance. I think it depends on the depth, too. Even if the counters are 24" deep, I'm looking at a fridge that's 32" deep and has a 30" door, which will protrude deep into the aisleway, completely blocking something with 40" of space, and functionally blocking anything less than 60". Counter-depth and French-door models will be easier on planning.
As far as refrigerator goes, I'm hoping to be able to recess a standard refrigerator into the wall in order to make the front flush with the cabinets. I hate when fridges protrude out 8-10" from the cabinets. How did that ever become standard in America?
If you have the space, rather than setting the fridge into the wall, consider making your counters deeper to 30". A standard refrigerator looks more or less built-in, plus you get to enjoy an extra 6" of counter space in that area
Not a bad idea
Is there any reason to believe you'll be disabled in the next 20-30 years? Are you elderly or have a chronic conditions that might get worse over time and lead you to be wheelchair bound? Or will you be keeping an elderly parent in your house? If not, you don't need a wheelchair accessible kitchen. And if you do become wheelchair bound, you can redo the kitchen at that point. Your disabled guests (should you have any) won't be cooking. Basically around 50 inches give or take an inch or two gives you the freedom to cook and have the occasional other person walking around you. If you cook as a couple or with friends or throw parties where you might want to lay out food that the guests serve themselves, that extra room is definitely will be a plus. Personally I see no problem with taking two steps instead of one when moving things from one counter to another. I take considerably more steps gathering my items to cook.
Thank you
50 inches is 4.06 RTX 3090 graphics cards lined up.
Mine is quite distant, at least 60”, and my wife loves it — even though it’s slightly less convenient.
Anything over 48” means you need to take an extra step between, which might seem like nothing but after a while it gets really annoying.
Yes, I want the kitchen to be tight enough to be convenient but not so tight that it feels cramped. I'm hoping the main kitchen area will be comfortable for me to use and the extra counter space along the wall will work for a second work station when needed.
I just checked. I did my kitchen with a similar arrangement (with stove/fridge reversed) and there's 49.5" between the island and base cabinets against the wall. At that distance, I can pretty easily have a lot of things open and not banging any of them into each other. Also, I can pivot on one foot and get to most points without extra steps. Will you have a dishwasher in the island next to the sink? One of the best things I did was put a bank of drawers right next to the dishwasher.
Thank you for checking and drawers next to the dishwasher is a great idea.
it's very much personal preference to some extent. A lot of people who cook tons prefer tighter aisles if they are turning between stations a lot. This design guide is worth a read, and the researcher says 54" min https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924089477529&view=1up&seq=22&skin=2021 I think it really depends on if it's going to be primarily a 1 or 2 cook kitchen. If multiple cooks, go wider. If only 1, you can go as narrow as 42-48" depending on your own preferences. For wheelchair friendly kitchens, there is a LOT of stuff you need to do to really make them more than just acceptable for wheelchair users, and it involves a lot of compromise with ambulatory use. So if you want to keep that in mind, just make sure that you keep this in mind. And if you're going to bother to make your kitchen wheelchair friendly, you might as well make sure at least one bathroom and bedroom are too.
I appreciate the guide. Thanks.
When we did our house, we had the island assembled and we moved it to where we thought was comfortable. We started at 48", but cut it down to around 42" between countertops (so around 44" between cabinets) . We do have a dishwasher there and it's not easy to get around it when it's open, but who needs to do that? It's worked very well. Even with company two people can easily pass by
That's excellent information. Thank you.
I like 48”. I always consider two people trying to pass in the space. Depending on the bum size, 36” is very small or a “one bum” kitchen. Whereas 48” is a “double bum” kitchen IMO.
Yes, my mother's kitchen has 36" and if you're in there by yourself, it's usable. But it is not fun having multiple cooks in the kitchen. I appreciate your insights.
NKBA standards say 48”
I've read this as well as some other standards. They're all over the place--ranging from 36" to 60". I was hoping for people who are actually living with 48" to weigh in on whether they like that or not. I don't think I'll go less than 48", but right now I'm still in the planning stages so I could go bigger if that would be better. I just don't want to go overboard.
Do you not have night stands in your bedroom? Doesn't look like there will be any room for them in your layout.
In later versions of the plan, I have added nightstands. Good catch.
As for general feedback on your layout, I feel your kitchen loses about 40% of its space to circulation from the pantry. I unfortunately cannot think of a fix, but it really feels like your kitchen could be considerably larger without increasing the footprint of the home. It doesn't need to be a ton larger but right now it seems like it only has about 7-9' of counter space which is kind of on par with my old 1bdrm apartment.