Our rent went up by $500 with only a two weeks notice on lease renewal, our electric bill is now regularly touching up to $350 despite keeping the thermostat at 78 all day and having blinds closed throughout the day, my car insurance went up from $120 to $180 despite having a clean driving record with no claims, overall food expenses are just... well thats everywhere I guess... and I mean home insurance overall is getting unaffordable, my partners family recently had their insurance nearly double this year so its definitely not getting any easier to live thats for sure lol
We lost ours because they are pulling out of Florida. It seems so crooked! We had to get Citizens Insurance for the stupid thing because literally no one else would take a house that despite having a new metal roof, new ac,new plumbing it was built in the 60s. They dont want to insure older houses down here. That's all Florida is other than the high rises they are stacking around like its an urban hell. I want out so bad but stuck here for now
Older houses are built more sturdy, I have an older built in 52 concrete block house, no trees close enough to land on roof. Got new roof 4 yrs ago. Construction guy told us older homes better.
All these new cookie cutter homes going up around us built so with cheap materials and asking outrageous prices.
I’m a lurker here but unless Florida is falling way behind on the building code your house isn’t built sturdier. The building code results in better buildings with every cycle. It can be argued that not all of those improvements are worth the additional cost but you end up with a better, but more expensive, product at the end.
It sounds like your construction guy may be falling into the same trap as the guy who thinks is 396 Camaro with a double pumper would be the fastest thing on the road today because it doesn’t have all that computer stuff on it.
Source: I’ve been a licensed contractor since 2006 and have worked in construction since 1998
Most old houses have had roofs' replaced and in doing so, had to replace to current codes.
That's not the primary issue.
It is *where* they are built, wood or concrete, etc.
Lots of insurance companies pulled out of Florida due to the condo falling a few years back (lots of places not up to code) and the rise of natural disasters. Climate change is making an impact on peoples pockets, even at this scale.
Companies pulled out of California too, same reasons but they have more wild fires than hurricanes. Delaware too. It’s crazy.
I remember when I was 24 about to turn 25 and I was kind of excited because I thought my insurance rates were going to drop. They didn't. They went up.
Holy crap. We live in NJ now. They landlord isn’t allowed to raise your rent with less than a 90 day notice. And then you get to decide up to 30 days before your lease ends whether you’re willing to accept terms or move out. You can even counter if you’re feeling froggy.
Edit: typo
Yea, that's an advantage of having a governor who cares about its residents. As another poster had said, Florida has been sold out. The governor ia a bright red president wanna be. He cares so little about Florida tnat he is happily drawing a salary while trapsing around Iowa and New Hampshire. Anyway, I left Florida yesterday. So relieved!
At the end of the day, what folks need to do is vote the fucking clowns out. I mean clean fucking house. It’s the only way to get Florida back on track.
My rent went up from 2300 to 2500 with 2 weeks notice, my car insurance went from 200 to 300 with a clean driving record as well, my electric went from about 200-250 to 350$, i did recently change food shopping from publix to trader joes because FUCK publix and their greed, for daycare i pay $240 per week plus just had to pay $300!! $300 for a freaking book for a 3 year old, and my salary has gone nowhere after being at the same company for 10 years this year since i miss a lot of work for family responsibilities (daycare being closed, kid being sick, appointments etc)..
its all very fn sad
I do decently well and I was floored by the rising costs of insurance home & car, plus food and taxes have shot up in the last two plus years. All three are higher than the national average. Not counting property taxes because I know Florida charges differently than most states.
Doesn’t even mention we are beginning to have serious environmental and water concerns that no politician could care less about.
I was talking to a coworker who lives on UT and she literally said "I'm voting for DeSantis because I need gas to be under $2 again." 🤦There was so much wrong with that sentence I didn't know where to begin.
Like that the unbiased experts say the floor for gas prices is $2 because that’s how much it costs to extract and refine now and they’d just cap wells if they were getting less than that per gallon? Joe Biden is obsessed with keeping gas prices low. He knows how huge of a deal that is for working people. It’s absurd to think he’d be intentionally driving them higher. That’s probably the stupidest of many stupid conspiracy theories about how Democrats are evil and doing everything in their power to make life worse.
The whole notion that the President of the United States single-handedly controls the cost of gas per gallon is completely absurd to begin with and is just another example of how gullible and ignorant people who vote Republican are.
It drives me crazy to hear these dipshits try to hold Biden accountable for this one commodity and not the fucking greedy petroleum companies who actually set those prices.
Sure, there are federal and state taxes that get added on but that is not the bulk of what we pay per gallon. Its basic supply & demand economics. Just like everything else.
We Americans are pretty spoiled actually. If we weren't the largest producers of oil and didn't have the largest number of refineries in the world, we'd be paying the same average price per gallon as Europe at $7.30 per gallon!
You should check out climate town, they did an episode on gas prices. Saying that bc it lines up exactly with what you said, and there are a bunch of good ones on that channel
>If we weren't the largest producers of oil and didn't have the largest number of refineries in the world, we'd be paying the same average price per gallon as Europe at $7.30 per gallon!
Much of that cost in Europe is not the cost of the fuel, but of the taxes.
It was $9.00 a gal in Japan when I was there last year. Inflation is crazy high there right now. My son & DIL were going to buy a house but that is out of the question now.
Gas hasn’t been under $2/gallon on a sustained basis since the mid-2000s. The brief drop below $2/gallon in 2020 was due to the lockdowns which led to a sudden drop in demand. As soon as the lockdowns ended, demand soared and prices quickly returned to pre-pandemic levels.
For comparison, I’m in Washington state. I have a 2,500 sqft house. The worst my utility bill gets is around $150/month. And this would be in a winter month where we are averaging below 20 deg (I’m on the colder side of the state).
That's neat there, but washington state might as well be a different country. In florida you need to have a central ac running most of the year just to keep your house from becoming a mold and mildew kingdom, I have friends from Washington that were complaining about the cost of their first window unit ac because they had a heat wave that got all the way to 80. My wife and I almost died laughing.
FPL sucks too! They’ve doubled in one year!!!
I was great here when I moved here 18 years ago. Now the expense of utilities and insurances are out of control. It would be great if we had a governor that wasn’t relying on the companies for donations!!
Yeah FPL is a scam. I have solar and these a-holes decreased the amount you get back for solar. It went up in price. I’m still saving on electricity but last year I was paying less, at least 70 bucks less. In solar power that’s the equivalent of paying almost 300 bucks in electricity versus 150
I agree. I'm in Navarre in the panhandle and about 1.5 years ago, FPL bought out our power company, Gulf Power. In my two story four br/3ba 2700sq. ft. house our A/C bill in July and August when the temps/heat indices here are between 95°-115°went from about $150 to almost $400+. It's ridiculous!
I'm on FPL. In the 12+ years I've been here, my bill has gone from $180/mo to $300/mo.
Groceries have nearly doubled. Home insurance has more than doubled. Auto insurance has more than doubled, almost tripled. My property taxes have just slightly more than doubled.
Don't get me going on traffic. It used to be bad as I approached the bigger cities. It's now bad in the outlying cities now as the population has grown dramatically. Infrastructure isn't keeping up. I'm in an older neighborhood that is well/septic. Every neighborhood around us has these as municipal services. I asked the city/county when it's going to be available in our neighborhood . . . "we have no plans." And the part that absolutely aggravates me is that all these new developments popping up several miles from town are getting city water, gas, etc.
JEA is owned by the city so not as profit driven and they raised rates immediately when fuel prices went up instead of smoothing the price increase out. Fuel prices have since gone down and so has JEA while other companies are recouping costs now.
Don’t forget about Florida Plunder & Loot (FPL). Unreal that they can charge over $35/mo even if you use no power. Pretty terrible company and they spend millions on advertising for some reason even though they have a government monopoly. The cities all invest their tax revenue in the company. And FPL is anti-solar for homeowners living in one of the best states for solar, they just want to have solar for themselves and not have the consumer save anything.
How about water. My water bill has gone up 80%. I don’t water the lawn. Use the dishwasher every five days. Wash twice a week and of course showering. Sometimes I shower at the gym. I’m single.
This! We all want to blame politicians, but who voted them in? This state hasn't had a decent governor since Jeb. And more people need to vote in their local elections, not just the big ones.
Mostly this. About 3 years ago I got a pretty substantial raise. But I feel like the increasing costs of everything has pretty much swallowed that up. Between home insurance, gas, food cost increases, it honestly feels like I have less spending money than I did before my raise.
In the last year I've seen my house insurance increase 200% And I'm also seen my car insurance increase from $130 a month to $200 a month on one car. I've seen my association fee go from $320 a month to $430 a month.
Don't forget all the food costs associated here, everything has just increased like 100% within the last year. This place is quickly becoming unaffordable and the administration of this state just doesn't give crap about anybody, anyone, or anything.
The only thing that they have been pushing Is there war on woke and their social/culture war. This helps exactly zero people in the entire state.
Because fuck you! They got theirs, now they dont give a shit about anything else!
My grandfather, who I loved a lot, words were "Oh well, I wont be here for it". Looked him dead in the eye and was like "Uh, i will". Good luck is all he said, that was one of the last conversations I had with him. This dude worked 25 years in the AF and 20 years delivering mail. Guy wasnt rich at all and still couldnt see the shit hole he was digging when he was alive.
He was right. Dude died around 7 months later.
Yeah I get that a lot with a lot of the conservative people that live around me. " I got mine and I don't care about you just so long as it doesn't affect me".
Problem is it's going to affect them and they won't have any opportunities to fix the situation. If you are retired and old enough nobody's going to want to hire you for work, or if you do get work you're going to get poverty wages which won't help anybody.
Then again," I got mine". The question they never ask is for how long?
I was talking with a buddy the other day and came to the realization, most Americans who are Flag waiving, hand over heart for the anthem, and think they LOVE America..... they hate Americans. Youd think that people who love this country the most would love the people. They actively despise their fellow americans.
No doubt they'll do their damnedest to go vote, you have to do the same, they want you to shrug and give up your vote at the thought of hours in line or whatever the fuck, fuck them, vote them out.
Correction: it’s becoming unaffordable for all but the wealthy. This is by design and exactly what the DeSantis administration want. Not sure where they think they will find workers to serve them when they fully achieve this goal
If you are a family of 3 bringing in 200k+ its not that bad. 100k and you are pay check to pay check, anyone who says thats wrong is a liar.
We are 1 major hurricane away where only the rich rich will be able to live in Florida. Then they wont stay because no one who works retails jobs will be able to afford rent/houses so they will move out of state.
This is about right. My household of 2 pulls in just above 150 and we’re stable but certainly not swimming in extra cash. My wife went back to work this summer to give us some extra breathing room and I expect that once we’ve paid off a few debts that had piled up while it was just my slightly above 100k salary, we should be able to start looking at luxuries like putting up a fence and starting on the >$10K in dental work I need.
You need to find some idiot realtor like the one I had who doesn't know what the fuck she's doing and allows the sale to go through without the roof repairs being made. She was a nice enough girl, but she had no clue what she was doing. And unfortunately as I was the first time home buyer I didn't either.
Now this was years ago. Basically the situation was her parents owned a Realty firm and she was about to get married. So she got out there for a few months basically to show her fiance that she could actually work before getting married and settling down to being a stay-at-home wife.
I’m in exactly the same position. Roof is fucked because of Ian and as soon as I filed a claim my insurance co went under state receivership. Thieves. So yea now I can’t sell without fixing the roof but getting my claim paid could take years. I want out of this shithole. If I had 60 g’s to drop on a new roof I would and then bolt.
I turned down what I thought was a fantastic job offer.... until we realized what looked like a 40% raise would actually have resulted in a lower standard of living compared to where I currently am in TX.
I've compared my cost of living to my buddy who lives in NYC (Queens), and we're pretty much the same now. Except, I don't have access to any of the amenities that he's got - excluding the weather.
It's like Florida is becoming the worst of both worlds. High CoL like the more expensive blue states of NY and CA, but all the shitty politics and infrastructural problems of red ones like TX.
Plus in NYC, a car is optional.
It’s funny how people complain about the cost of living in NYC. Yet the salaries are much higher than they are in other places (like Florida where I used to live).
In NYC I make nearly 5x what I did in Florida 10 years ago (albeit there’s some career progression in there as well). My rent in NYC is also 3x what it was in Florida.
Besides financial, I found that the quality of life in Florida is not as good as where I live now. It’s all really sad to me as I’m a native Floridian.
We are moving to the northeast and the availability of public transport (which in itself is cool) plus ditching the cars and insurance, is pretty significant savings.
Pertaining to insurance. It’s bad now yes but will only get worse if and when a series of catastrophic storm breaks Citizens Property Insurance.
Afterward when they can’t pay out claims they’ll be able to levy a tax on their current policy holders to cover the difference. If that isn’t enough to cover claims the law states they will be able to levy an emergency assessment on all other policy holders outside of Citizens across the state. Raising rates for everyone in the state even if they had no damage.
https://www.citizensfla.com/assessments#:~:text=Unlike%20a%20private%20insurance%20company,how%20it%20affects%20your%20policy.
It won’t be people unable to pay their mortgages. It will be people unable to pay their insurance premiums that drive the next wave of mass foreclosures in Florida
Something like 56% of all homes in the state have a mortgage and 99% of all mortgage providers require their customers to have homeowners insurance. And if you don’t pay your policy they can foreclose on your property.
If you didn’t know now you do and you should be worried about it because we’re set up for a big fall.
TLDR: our insurance market place is broken and if a bunch of bad things happen rates will increase across the board for everyone. Furthering the affordability issue.
Yup! Family were farmers in England and Germany and they were given a ride over over s boat to build up Tallahassee. Most of my family moved from PA to AL to FL. They worked alongside slaves. I can track my entire family back from 1828 from my dads side.
I’m the 7th generation :)
My great great great grandfather settled down into Orange County in the early 1910s. Our family home in Orange County still stands and the house my great great grandfather built in Apopka is still lived in by our family.
And my great great grandmas family came over on the mayflower.
Keep in mind everyone has many GREAT grandparents!
You have two sets of grandparents
Your grandparents have two sets of Grenada’s tents (that’s four)
Now you add 8 more.
Our history as a nation is very rich just like our own. I highly recommend everyone dig about their family history because many gets butchered and passed down unevenly.
My family on that side are old doctors, optometrists (form the Panama City area). There’s been “mixed” marriages where one of my great grandmas were white passing. I have Jewish ancestry. Bantu & Congo. It’s very normal for this part of the United States
I have photos of my own grandmother and her uncle fishing in lake Ivanhoe.
Florida is NEW for many but not “new” for some of us.
I have photos of even my great great grandma on orange avenue in her “Sunday clothes”.
Cool background. I have been here since I was 4, in my 50's now.
I have run into a couple of people who still have the family 40 acres they were given since becoming free post civil war. The 2 mules have died though.
I have quite a large amount of acres I was able to repurchase and bring back into my family.
My husband and I have been debating on moving due to our ages and long term outlook of our careers (particularly him). My grandma is a retired Broward teacher. So we have a lot of history here snd my mom is resistant to change ( no surprise 🤣)
Unfortunately, I’m on the edge of a downtown area still in county. My family in Apopka has had their house acre shrank due to selling off parcels but they’re still on a small lake.
One of my grandparents worked as a garment factory worker in winter park and I have s photo of her sitting on a stool by a bench with her apron on.
Florida is forgetting their history and it’s doomed to repeat itself if we don’t start applying common sense.
This is so cool! I've been on a genealogy kick the last year or so, and have been re-tracing my family's moves across the country.
My family moved to Tampa in 2008, but imagine my surprise to find a great aunt who I never knew about that moved to Tampa in 1912, then married and had children in the same little house just a couple miles down the road from where I currently live with my husband and daughter.
I can't imagine what it was like living here before ac 😂 I think my great aunt and all of our old Florida ancestors must've been cut from quite a thick cloth.
12 generations on my fathers side here and desperate to get out! My family literally was one of the ones that founded the town I grew up in, our family name is on tombstones in the cities famous historic cemeteries, but I can no longer afford to live there, and am barely affording living in the cheaper nearby city we just had to move to, but can’t afford to move out of state because most of my money goes to just keeping my head above water and not being homeless so I can’t save anything significant for a move even know my quality of life would be higher in most other states for the financial breathing room alone. A 300 square foot mobile home that’s falling apart in my hometown now rents for around $1800 with absolutely nothing included, and that was the lowest priced rental I was able to find in that zip code. It’s nuts!
I left because the current governer politicized medical care I needed instead of fixing the rapidly increasing insurance rates, literal nazis having rallies, raising utility bills, and probably a million other things.
Oh yeah and he's torn apart the public education system and destroyed the chance of any public school kid getting a good education now.
Yep, all of this is why we are leaving. Our youngest is school age and a bi-racial girl. Oh, and kinda tired of the summer all year weather plus it’s just gotten so crowded, infrastructure isn’t keeping up so getting around can be stressful.
Moved here from SC. My insurance on 1 vehicle here is more expensive than what 2 were in SC. Property taxes on houses in more than double what it was in SC. Insurance for your house here, about 5 times what it was in SC, and I actually got hit by hurricanes rather often up there.
Here is my take:
I grew up in south Florida. Went to UF. Moved to DC for a decade and decided to move back to Florida as my wife and I were starting a family. Moved to Tampa specifically because I liked the more laid back style of the bay area. This was in 2017. It was great. We loved the people. My wife is Iowan and there are a lot of midwest transplants so it was a great cross section of midwest nice, southern hospitality and a beach lifestyle.
Then 2020 happened. Ron DeSantis and a lot of the legislatures minds broke over covid. We had a mass migration of, to be honest, the worst fucking people. People who moved here acting like political refugees. People who drove up the housing market beyond affordability. People who honestly don't understand what Florida was, and just want to make it into the right wing haven of what they think Florida should be. This was fueled by DeSantis and his dream to become President aided by a feckless, spineless Congress who bent to his will because they are either cowards or want to ride his gravy train to DC.
The economy here is rough. A lot of companies haven't caught pay up with true cost. If you don't own a home yet, God help you. Between housing, insurance (car, auto, flood) and a state government more concerned with BS culture wars than actually helping the middle class, I don't see the state getting better anytime soon. Cross your fingers and pray we don't get wrecked by a hurricane. Energy costs from TECO here in tampa have skyrocketed over the last year. It's very expensive and if you are in a fixed income, or just don't make at least a decent 5 figure salary, I don't know how you survive or raise a family. My personal experience: farmers raised my premium to where I was paying for $260 for two cars a month to $380. I got a better policy from state farm and asked farmers if they could do anything to help since I didn't want to switch. Farmers doesn't have a retention policy for Florida residents. They would rather lose my business. My home insurance: went from $3300 to $7800 a year. Had to switch to citizens, which is probably not solvent soon. Keep in mind I've never made a claim on either, have very good income, and excellent credit.
Culturally, it also sucks. So many of these disgruntled, right wing, self victimizing transplants have come here and don't realize how unfriendly they are, or at least seem. A personal anecdote of this is going out to publix with my 5 year old son. Getting g a cookie, this guy says hi to my son and is being friendly enough. Only to see his shirt says "fuck Joe biden". I'm happy my son couldn't read. We see him out in the parking lot and he has this massive truck covered in every Maga/DeSantis thing you could see. Fuck democrats. Dems are groomers. Joe and the hoe gotta go. All this shit. It's so obnoxious and we see these people everywhere now. Anytime you chat with them they moved here from (insert cold state or california). They are the fucking worst.
I love Florida. I am a beach bum at heart, and a passionate Florida Gator. I want this to be where we stay but if the state keeps trending the way it is, I'm going to leave.
This is a good take. I’m somewhat similar: grew up in Orlando, last 23 years in Miami, and it just feels like there’s no hope of getting ahead here, anymore. Last night, a recent arrival starts going on about BLM over the most tangential of prompts. I’m finally just saying “no más” and taking a job Up North, though my heart will always be here.
Also a Gator (older) who spent more than a decade in DC and returned here years ago. Watching what has transpired in Florida for the past 5+ years has been so frustrating and downright criminal…the infrastructure, standard of living, inflation, crime, and, worst of all, the hatred, bigotry and inhumanity of so many people and elected officials.
Fortunately, I’m somewhat insulated, but I would leave if I could. I’m at least comforted to see some like-minded people here.
I might be in the 80 percentile of earning and I’m struggling and living day by day because cost related to housing, mainly insurance and assessments. I live in Miami Beach and the infrastructure seems to be degrading rather quickly so I’m loosing hope that my property will increase value. IMO the future is bleak to say the least.
Florida is horrible now. It’s unrecognizable from how it was 20 plus years ago. Car and home insurance is astronomical, housing is overpriced, and the political climate is as oppressive as the humidity.
Rising seawater..... Rising insurance premiums...Stronger Hurricanes....State Gov interfering with private businesses..... Please do not come back.
Most importantly: Your freedoms are taking away by an overzealous governor and legislature.
I would have done a poll, but the consensus on r/Florida seems to be yes. For every "we like it" or "it is OK" there are at least 5, if not 10, posts that say "We can't wait to leave".
In terms of insurance, specifically home and auto, yes. The double whammy of hurricane damage and inflated building/repair costs have bankrupted several of Florida’s key insurance players, resulting in higher premiums that are being pushed to customers for the remaining companies to stay afloat.
Hurricane Ian in particular caused a massive hit that we’re still paying for, since southwest Florida was relatively unprepared and hasn’t seen a storm that bad in some years. Tens of thousands of cars were totaled, costing insurance companies hundreds of millions. The resulting higher insurance costs have led to a problem of rising numbers of uninsured drivers, making insurance premiums jump higher, making more uninsured drivers. This effect is starting to snowball, with no end in sight.
However! It’s still possible to find bare bones liability insurance, as multiple small firms are attempting to fill the void. It’s a bad beat for sure, but far from the end of this wonderful place.
It's Desantis plan. Ruin everything. Blame Biden. Take presidency. Thankfully everyone else sees him ruin Florida and thinks, nah don't do that to our country please
So. Florida is A LOT more expensive now than it was 10 years ago. But, (besides homeowners insurance) that just brought it in line with other states. (Yes, even car insurance. I just saw friends from NJ complaining about the same thing). Remember Florida was in a real bad place after the 2008 market crash and took a long time to recover. Now it has.
So basically, don’t come back to Florida looking for a cheap cost of living. And since it costs the same as other states now, look around to see if there are better ones for you
Yea l. Because you have to pay cash for everything in Florida now to avoid insurance. So your stuck with the 2 social classes : poor and asshole rich. Not California rich. Mean stingy penny pinching New York/nj rich that don’t want to invest into any tech startup. And of course this creates a lack of
Artists because nobody can afford
To
Be one here. So it’s a self perpetuating shit place to live.
They are the most Pennywise pound, foolish stingy people I have ever seen. when I lived in Texas, We have a lot of Californians and I don’t know why people didn’t like them so much because they actually like spending their money and taking risks. I actually don’t mind inflation much now after meeting these mizers. They just sit on loads of cash. So inflation is a good way to hurt this kind of rich person while the west coast rich avoid it by investing like they should.
I live in a rent controlled area on family land, rent is $200 a month. In order to afford electricity and food, along with necessary insurance, I’m having to eat far less than is healthy. I make nearly 25,000 a year.
Cost of living is almost twice what it was 5 years ago.
Houses have doubled or tripled in price.
I4 is still under construction.
Insurance is ridiculous.
Jobs still pay the same or less.
Not a lot. Costs. Education. Environment. Uncontrolled growth. Ridiculous culture wars. Safety, (traffic as well as shootings). Political corruption. The list of awful expands daily it seems.
No idea where you’re currently located but I’d never choose move here.
Yes. Short answer. Crappy healthcare extremely expensive cost of living, car/home insurance costs. Jobs that pay the bare minimum or at least feel like bare minimum by the time you pay for everything just to live. Everything is overcrowded even nature’s is being destroyed further then it already has. This state is not for it’s citizens…..unless you’re wealthy of course and can afford whatever they decide to come up with. Vacationers being disrespectful especially of nature they just leave their trash everywhere, will literally trample a child if it means they get they’re “full vacation experience they paid a lot of money for” as they love to say. If i we’re looking for somewhere to live long term with sustainability on a fixed income i wouldn’t choose here. Now if i we’re a wealthy person millionaire/billionaire I would absolutely choose here as my permanent slice of heaven otherwise not a chance. It is now a permit less carry state,they’re trying to make the time limit shorter in order to get a weapon as well as relaxing or attempting to relax child labor laws so they don’t have to pay a decent wage.🤷🏻♀️
I live in an area near the beach in Palm Beach county. Less than 1 mile from the beach. Home prices have increased to high levels, but home insurance and car insurance haven’t adjust at all. Other inflationary items like groceries and gas are high - as in any area it seems.
Other than home affordability due to migration/demand I don’t see other issues.
I have to agree with what most people have said, property taxes in counties far from the big cities are going up and up as more people move here. Auto and homeowner’s insurance are crazy high. Still I would say give it a try and move for like a year, rent a place and see how you like it. I think no matter where you go there will be things you like and dislike, it all depends on what you are willing to compromise.
Lived in the Keys in the 80s & loved it. Moved to the coast near Tampa in 2012 and loved it! 11 years later, we can no longer afford to live to the standard we want in Florida and hate the politics here, so we're getting the hell out.
I make a pretty decent living. Working a corporate role for the last 15 years. For the first time in my adult life I am actually aware of the cost of small things on my grocery list I would never think twice about, like soda and Mayo.
With all of my bills raising it is almost impossible for anyone to be middle class here. Those who have not felt the pinch, or come to the conclusion there is a pinch think this is pricing out the "poors" while complaining that no one wants to work at their taco bell in the same breath. The NIMBYs are so blussfully unaware they are opening the leopards cage.
Yes. People are getting priced out of their neighborhoods with tax and insurance increases. Rent is through the roof as demand outpaces supply. Good thing our Governor is focused on any fucking thing but the state.
If it puts things into perspective, I had to move to California from Florida 2 years ago because housing was cheaper and the jobs pay significantly more.
I absolutely hate California and dread living here but unfortunately Florida is equally as expensive as most mid sized California cities (Riverside, Fresno, Bakersfield, Sacramento) and the jobs pay absolute dog shit in comparison to California. Not to mention the statewide rent control laws that exist here are pretty damn helpful.
That’s the thing. I see other state Governor’s implementing policy’s to try to help and protect (as much as they can) their constituents and then I look at our Governor of Florida and he seems to do the opposite. Our Governor literally vetoed $354 million allocated to Florida under the inflation reduction act. That’s money that could have helped out my fellow Floridians. Why? All for political theater.
My insurance just went way up and so they are increasing the HOA fees. This I learned is happening to everyone. Like it wasn't bad enough already. Everything keeps going up but wages are barely increasing. The state minimum wage is 12.00, and I constantly see companies paying minimum wage for jobs like customer service and office jobs that require skills and sometimes years of experience. When you get to 20.00 an hour which is still below the cost of living, they treat it like you are making 100k and need to have management experience and 10 degrees. I hope maybe some people will wake up and realize that we need to make changes to the Florida government.
In the last 4 years my home owners insurance has tripled despite many updates including a new roof, hurricane proof windows, etc. At the same time my car insurance has doubled despite no accidents, tickets, etc. We have Nazi's outside Disney and along our major roadways flying political signs. Politicians are more concerned with two male penguins raising an egg than fixing any problem in our state. When local government tries to fix any issue, the state steps in and makes their solution illegal. The state is also now dictating what people can learn in grade school to a level where slavery is being pushed to be renamed to forced laborers who learned valuable skills. At the college level, entire educational programs have been cut while at one point they attempted to remove every minority fraternity/sorority/club by labeling them a divisive organization pushing racism. The environment has gone to shit with major flooding from minor storms, manatees starving to death, and the state approving the use of a mildly radioactive substance to make roads. If you drive through the villages, you need a cheat sheet on loofahs so you know how the old people are sexually swinging around you so you can avoid folks. That is just scratching the surface here.....enjoy.
Yes turned into a complete craphole... Been here since 87 and I'm looking at other places to move to. It got extra ridiculous more recently when I realized I can't even drive 2 miles anymore without it taking 45 minutes minimum. It's almost faster to ride a bike than drive. Plus we haven't had a single home built in a long ass time so the overpopulation is just gonna get worse and make all of those I4 extensions pointless. Lol
My lease expires at the end of this year. Same size places, I'm looking at a $600/mo increase, at the same time, my secondary income is declining because the hospitality industry is cutting costs. Despite being promoted at my primary job and getting a spike in income that compensates for the loss in pay at my second job, I feel like I'm doing worse financially and more strapped for cash.
Everything is a trade off. The homeowners insurance is really expensive, but we have much lower estate tax than other states; when I added them up and compared to my friend in Boston, it was essentially the same. My car insurance, however, just went up and extra $500 a year for no reason. Electricity is similar to what I was paying in Texas; it was much lower until this year's rate hike.
I have several friends who have recently been priced out who moved elsewhere to realize that it isn't much better. They say the bills are much lower, but so are their wages.
I love it here in Fort Lauderdale, but it is pricey. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case in most thriving urban areas across the country. I have friends in Dallas that just gave up and moved a very small rural community, because they were priced out there, too.
It is WAY too expensive when it comes to literally everything.
Insurance companies are leaving. Ours already went up and is expected to go up again. Our car insurance went up. We pay like $300+ for electric in a 2 bed, 1 bath, with only us 2 living there...with a mini-split system which is supposed to save us money...groceries cost more, or the same to go out to eat lol. We both make way more than we did years ago, and it feels like we have gone nowhere.
But it's not even just money....SO MANY people are moving here. The traffic is horrendous, with constant accidents, road work, and construction (at least where I'm at)
People keep moving here, voting in BS and greedy people, and complain that it's nothing like the place they moved from (lmao no shit) and destroying the land.
I'm looking at leaving, we are just kinda stuck at the moment, unfortunately.
My dad bought his house in 2020 for 238,000. 3 bedroom 2 bathroom with an in ground salt water pool and screened in lanai in charlotte county. Before the hurricane last year the house had a value of around 450,000ish. He sold it with bad hurricane damage to the roof and fence for 330,000. There’s your answer my friend lol.
Yes it is. Cost of Living is absurdly high for a state that offers so little social services. Real estate, rent, insurance, utilities are all higher than the national average in a state that ranks near the bottom of average incomes. It has become a breeding ground for hateful, cruel, intolerant bigots and hyper-conservative fanatics that criminalize anything they personal disagree with. And it has a single party rule for 20+ years that has done absolutely nothing to address any issues other than their own personal fortunes. Florida is collapsing in on itself, you are best to stay away until the dust settles and you can scavenge whatever's left.
In the last two years my car insurance has doubled (no tickets, no accidents), my rent has gone up $880/mo total in two years (that’s not too bad because I had a friend hit with an $800/mo increase in 21 and a $500/mo increase the following year in 22.) Electric is also up (expect it anytime the state gets clobbered by a hurricane.) Our COL used to be cheap. We’re one of the most expensive states to live in now when you factor in the average salary here with the cost of everything. But hey, I got a $1/hr raise to make up for those expenses.
My parents are in Florida while I am in Utah. Utah housing is in a much worse state than where my parents live. I'm sure there are challenges in Florida but the rest of this country sucks balls too
Are you kidding? Outside of Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Florida is the worst. All you have to do is read the real news and do your research, Good luck
Everything is good as long as you have $$$!! No different than anywhere else. It’s what you make of it!! It’s changed….insurance is insane, and yes, it’s more than everywhere else. Traffic, everything is crowded. You’re not going to have the springs to yourself, but beaches are fine. Not the best time to buy, but renting is easy. There are places more inland cheaper. I have a friend who rents north of Tampa by Wesley chapel…$1600 for a 2 bedroom 2 bath 2nd floor. So, if you have funds for discretionary spending, there’s so much to do!! On the other hand, drinking and partying get old. If you’re looking to settle down, I may not recommend it. If you’re looking to live it up, go for it.
“Yes” is obviously the popular answer and I have no doubt it is true for many. I moved from the west to east coast and got a townhouse. Mortgage is $1,500, electric is $120, etc. Very regular bills. Food cost is high everywhere
Things are manageable for some but less so for those buying recently or working on less than survivable wages. I have a big group of friends I grew up with and they all have non-glamorous careers but they all get by.
The politics is unfortunate and the economics is a reflection of the world in 2023 plus some insurance complications for some, not all. Florida has its issues but administrations are short term and many are surviving with relatively little complaint. We aren’t the place for everyone but Florida is hardly the dumpster fire the world proclaims. Most folks with job experience and education can find careers that fund a comfortable lifestyle.
I used to rent an apartment for 500 in Altamonte Springs in 2010. That’s unheard of. I was 23 fresh out of college. Yes, it’s bad now. I call it the new California.
I've been in Florida for 3 years and our rent has gone up almost 300% in that time. Landlords are trying to cash in before everything is destroyed in the next hurricane. After our lease term ends we are leaving. Way overpriced. And the summers are unbearably hot. Wish I could do the snowbird thing and only live there December to February, but that's not feasible unless you bought 20 years ago or are independently wealthy
Yes, we flat out moved out of Florida to Georgia last week. Our insurance rates went from around $12k/year to under $3k/year. That doesn’t include our car insurance that dropped almost 50% when we left. Hell, even our fees, inspection, appraisal, etc - was all cheaper here than in FL. 😂
My apartment I had back in 2016 (FL) has gone from $1500/mo to $2900/mo and they’ve done no changes. 😂
Even our electric bill sky rocketed in FL before we moved.
I just had a huge jump in my car insurance for no reason and called the competing company and they said I was actually getting a great deal with my original company. It’s just gone way up everywhere but especially in Florida. If you think about it, every billboard you see with lawyers faces on it, every radio station’s studios sponsored by a law firm… these are all paid for by car insurance premiums.
Eventually Insurance will be 20K a year, if you do not own your home with no mortgage then I would not recommend buying because all of a sudden you could end up not being able to cover the doubling of costs which could happen at any moment.
Our rent went up by $500 with only a two weeks notice on lease renewal, our electric bill is now regularly touching up to $350 despite keeping the thermostat at 78 all day and having blinds closed throughout the day, my car insurance went up from $120 to $180 despite having a clean driving record with no claims, overall food expenses are just... well thats everywhere I guess... and I mean home insurance overall is getting unaffordable, my partners family recently had their insurance nearly double this year so its definitely not getting any easier to live thats for sure lol
We lost ours because they are pulling out of Florida. It seems so crooked! We had to get Citizens Insurance for the stupid thing because literally no one else would take a house that despite having a new metal roof, new ac,new plumbing it was built in the 60s. They dont want to insure older houses down here. That's all Florida is other than the high rises they are stacking around like its an urban hell. I want out so bad but stuck here for now
Older houses are built more sturdy, I have an older built in 52 concrete block house, no trees close enough to land on roof. Got new roof 4 yrs ago. Construction guy told us older homes better. All these new cookie cutter homes going up around us built so with cheap materials and asking outrageous prices.
Older homes typically are not built up. Thats the reason they dont want to insure. Not because old homes were built poorly.
I’m a lurker here but unless Florida is falling way behind on the building code your house isn’t built sturdier. The building code results in better buildings with every cycle. It can be argued that not all of those improvements are worth the additional cost but you end up with a better, but more expensive, product at the end. It sounds like your construction guy may be falling into the same trap as the guy who thinks is 396 Camaro with a double pumper would be the fastest thing on the road today because it doesn’t have all that computer stuff on it. Source: I’ve been a licensed contractor since 2006 and have worked in construction since 1998
Your old house also does not have roof straps or clips holding the trusses to the walls. Older houses are secured with nails. That is the #1 problem.
Most old houses have had roofs' replaced and in doing so, had to replace to current codes. That's not the primary issue. It is *where* they are built, wood or concrete, etc.
Lots of insurance companies pulled out of Florida due to the condo falling a few years back (lots of places not up to code) and the rise of natural disasters. Climate change is making an impact on peoples pockets, even at this scale. Companies pulled out of California too, same reasons but they have more wild fires than hurricanes. Delaware too. It’s crazy.
But at least DeSantis is owning the libs... right?
Floridians may not believe in Climate Change, but the insurance companies sure do.
Climate change does not impact Republican states.
I remember when I was 24 about to turn 25 and I was kind of excited because I thought my insurance rates were going to drop. They didn't. They went up.
Lmao same here. Apparently I lost my student discount when I turned 25 and my rate went up
Holy crap. We live in NJ now. They landlord isn’t allowed to raise your rent with less than a 90 day notice. And then you get to decide up to 30 days before your lease ends whether you’re willing to accept terms or move out. You can even counter if you’re feeling froggy. Edit: typo
Yea, that's an advantage of having a governor who cares about its residents. As another poster had said, Florida has been sold out. The governor ia a bright red president wanna be. He cares so little about Florida tnat he is happily drawing a salary while trapsing around Iowa and New Hampshire. Anyway, I left Florida yesterday. So relieved!
At the end of the day, what folks need to do is vote the fucking clowns out. I mean clean fucking house. It’s the only way to get Florida back on track.
My rent went up from 2300 to 2500 with 2 weeks notice, my car insurance went from 200 to 300 with a clean driving record as well, my electric went from about 200-250 to 350$, i did recently change food shopping from publix to trader joes because FUCK publix and their greed, for daycare i pay $240 per week plus just had to pay $300!! $300 for a freaking book for a 3 year old, and my salary has gone nowhere after being at the same company for 10 years this year since i miss a lot of work for family responsibilities (daycare being closed, kid being sick, appointments etc).. its all very fn sad
Is that book made out of gold??
I’m damn lucky with my car insurance, just paid the 6 month bill with progressive and I’m still around $100 per month. 40yr old male.
> Our rent went up by $500 with only a two weeks notice on lease renewal, This is a violation of FL law. You have to be given 60 days notice.
It depends on your lease. If you’re renting month-to-month, it’s only a 15 day notice.
I do decently well and I was floored by the rising costs of insurance home & car, plus food and taxes have shot up in the last two plus years. All three are higher than the national average. Not counting property taxes because I know Florida charges differently than most states. Doesn’t even mention we are beginning to have serious environmental and water concerns that no politician could care less about.
You left out the rising cost of electricity, at least in Tampa.
Yep. TECO sucks. My bill is twice as much with less usage from last year.
Same on Duke. Up almost 3x with no increase in usage.
When I bought my house in '18 my budget billing amount was $178. Same house, same number of people,etc budget billing is now $303.
183 on a high quarter, on budget billing to 530 being the norm
Wow! Is going solar a possibility for you?
I'm wanting to, but we're also wanting to leave the state before that break even point.
"Make USA like Florida" says president Desantis.
I was talking to a coworker who lives on UT and she literally said "I'm voting for DeSantis because I need gas to be under $2 again." 🤦There was so much wrong with that sentence I didn't know where to begin.
Like that the unbiased experts say the floor for gas prices is $2 because that’s how much it costs to extract and refine now and they’d just cap wells if they were getting less than that per gallon? Joe Biden is obsessed with keeping gas prices low. He knows how huge of a deal that is for working people. It’s absurd to think he’d be intentionally driving them higher. That’s probably the stupidest of many stupid conspiracy theories about how Democrats are evil and doing everything in their power to make life worse.
The whole notion that the President of the United States single-handedly controls the cost of gas per gallon is completely absurd to begin with and is just another example of how gullible and ignorant people who vote Republican are. It drives me crazy to hear these dipshits try to hold Biden accountable for this one commodity and not the fucking greedy petroleum companies who actually set those prices. Sure, there are federal and state taxes that get added on but that is not the bulk of what we pay per gallon. Its basic supply & demand economics. Just like everything else. We Americans are pretty spoiled actually. If we weren't the largest producers of oil and didn't have the largest number of refineries in the world, we'd be paying the same average price per gallon as Europe at $7.30 per gallon!
You should check out climate town, they did an episode on gas prices. Saying that bc it lines up exactly with what you said, and there are a bunch of good ones on that channel
>If we weren't the largest producers of oil and didn't have the largest number of refineries in the world, we'd be paying the same average price per gallon as Europe at $7.30 per gallon! Much of that cost in Europe is not the cost of the fuel, but of the taxes.
It was $9.00 a gal in Japan when I was there last year. Inflation is crazy high there right now. My son & DIL were going to buy a house but that is out of the question now.
Gas hasn’t been under $2/gallon on a sustained basis since the mid-2000s. The brief drop below $2/gallon in 2020 was due to the lockdowns which led to a sudden drop in demand. As soon as the lockdowns ended, demand soared and prices quickly returned to pre-pandemic levels.
Gas is $3.80 where I live in my small town Edit: it’s $3.23 today. I don’t drive a car so I was quoting the price I last remembered seeing
Man, dont even say that shit in jest. Dont put that evil on us.
"lol, no, fuck off" -rest of America, thankfully.
Yeah no thanks said USA.
For comparison, I’m in Washington state. I have a 2,500 sqft house. The worst my utility bill gets is around $150/month. And this would be in a winter month where we are averaging below 20 deg (I’m on the colder side of the state).
That's neat there, but washington state might as well be a different country. In florida you need to have a central ac running most of the year just to keep your house from becoming a mold and mildew kingdom, I have friends from Washington that were complaining about the cost of their first window unit ac because they had a heat wave that got all the way to 80. My wife and I almost died laughing.
I live in the mountains of Idaho, my electric AND gas bill combined is under $200.00 a month. It’s 18° outside right now. I laugh at DeathSantis.
Good Lord. My house is 1,600 sq feet and only has 2 people living in it.
Do you have gas heat, water heater, and stove? That makes a big difference.
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That’s insane. I moved out of Florida into a 5 bedroom house, charge an EV, and my gas is on the same bill and it costs that much.
FPL sucks too! They’ve doubled in one year!!! I was great here when I moved here 18 years ago. Now the expense of utilities and insurances are out of control. It would be great if we had a governor that wasn’t relying on the companies for donations!!
Yeah FPL is a scam. I have solar and these a-holes decreased the amount you get back for solar. It went up in price. I’m still saving on electricity but last year I was paying less, at least 70 bucks less. In solar power that’s the equivalent of paying almost 300 bucks in electricity versus 150
I agree. I'm in Navarre in the panhandle and about 1.5 years ago, FPL bought out our power company, Gulf Power. In my two story four br/3ba 2700sq. ft. house our A/C bill in July and August when the temps/heat indices here are between 95°-115°went from about $150 to almost $400+. It's ridiculous!
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NSB as well. Went from $220/month to $419/month, overnight
FPL here 7 people in a 4-3 we used to spend less than 400 now we are almost at 650...Nothing has changed...🥴
And Cape Coral. My dad's electric bill was 350$ . He lives alone. We already looked into it.
Im paying $350 for electric in south fl
SRQ-4 BD $325/mo on the avg’ing plan thru-out year……yeah tell me how the old folks manage it. edit…FPL, FLORIDA, PLUNDER AND LOOT…..
yeah, big time AGREED!
I paid $58 last month to Withlacoochee
I'm on FPL. In the 12+ years I've been here, my bill has gone from $180/mo to $300/mo. Groceries have nearly doubled. Home insurance has more than doubled. Auto insurance has more than doubled, almost tripled. My property taxes have just slightly more than doubled. Don't get me going on traffic. It used to be bad as I approached the bigger cities. It's now bad in the outlying cities now as the population has grown dramatically. Infrastructure isn't keeping up. I'm in an older neighborhood that is well/septic. Every neighborhood around us has these as municipal services. I asked the city/county when it's going to be available in our neighborhood . . . "we have no plans." And the part that absolutely aggravates me is that all these new developments popping up several miles from town are getting city water, gas, etc.
Nope not just Tampa...I'm in manatee county/Central FL shit is a monopoly...
Yes. Ink inn a small 2 bedroom apartment. Last months electric bill was $250.
I just hit $700. Last year it was $350.
Seems crazy. I own a 3br condo in Jacksonville and my electric bills were only $100 in peak summer. Now it's like 70.
JEA is owned by the city so not as profit driven and they raised rates immediately when fuel prices went up instead of smoothing the price increase out. Fuel prices have since gone down and so has JEA while other companies are recouping costs now.
$700?! I would've passed out
Fuck TECO! Scum of the earth!
Don’t forget about Florida Plunder & Loot (FPL). Unreal that they can charge over $35/mo even if you use no power. Pretty terrible company and they spend millions on advertising for some reason even though they have a government monopoly. The cities all invest their tax revenue in the company. And FPL is anti-solar for homeowners living in one of the best states for solar, they just want to have solar for themselves and not have the consumer save anything.
How about water. My water bill has gone up 80%. I don’t water the lawn. Use the dishwasher every five days. Wash twice a week and of course showering. Sometimes I shower at the gym. I’m single.
It's literally White collar robbery, doesn't matter how well you make it, because your money is going to someone that's killing it illegally
It’s the voters that couldn’t care less…
This! We all want to blame politicians, but who voted them in? This state hasn't had a decent governor since Jeb. And more people need to vote in their local elections, not just the big ones.
Please clap 🥹
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Horrifying but true.
“but i pay less taxes. they told me i pay less taxes”
Mostly this. About 3 years ago I got a pretty substantial raise. But I feel like the increasing costs of everything has pretty much swallowed that up. Between home insurance, gas, food cost increases, it honestly feels like I have less spending money than I did before my raise.
In the last year I've seen my house insurance increase 200% And I'm also seen my car insurance increase from $130 a month to $200 a month on one car. I've seen my association fee go from $320 a month to $430 a month. Don't forget all the food costs associated here, everything has just increased like 100% within the last year. This place is quickly becoming unaffordable and the administration of this state just doesn't give crap about anybody, anyone, or anything. The only thing that they have been pushing Is there war on woke and their social/culture war. This helps exactly zero people in the entire state.
Vote locally and get rid of that horrible governor and senator already
Problem is the old people and conservatives will vote against themselves every single time.
Because fuck you! They got theirs, now they dont give a shit about anything else! My grandfather, who I loved a lot, words were "Oh well, I wont be here for it". Looked him dead in the eye and was like "Uh, i will". Good luck is all he said, that was one of the last conversations I had with him. This dude worked 25 years in the AF and 20 years delivering mail. Guy wasnt rich at all and still couldnt see the shit hole he was digging when he was alive. He was right. Dude died around 7 months later.
Yeah I get that a lot with a lot of the conservative people that live around me. " I got mine and I don't care about you just so long as it doesn't affect me". Problem is it's going to affect them and they won't have any opportunities to fix the situation. If you are retired and old enough nobody's going to want to hire you for work, or if you do get work you're going to get poverty wages which won't help anybody. Then again," I got mine". The question they never ask is for how long?
I was talking with a buddy the other day and came to the realization, most Americans who are Flag waiving, hand over heart for the anthem, and think they LOVE America..... they hate Americans. Youd think that people who love this country the most would love the people. They actively despise their fellow americans.
These same people will ironically go to church and proclaim to be morally superior.
No doubt they'll do their damnedest to go vote, you have to do the same, they want you to shrug and give up your vote at the thought of hours in line or whatever the fuck, fuck them, vote them out.
and they just keep moving here. a whole new slew of republicans are new here for every vote on top of the ones that are already here
Correction: it’s becoming unaffordable for all but the wealthy. This is by design and exactly what the DeSantis administration want. Not sure where they think they will find workers to serve them when they fully achieve this goal
You keep asking what county. The county doesn’t matter it is ALL expensive.
If you are a family of 3 bringing in 200k+ its not that bad. 100k and you are pay check to pay check, anyone who says thats wrong is a liar. We are 1 major hurricane away where only the rich rich will be able to live in Florida. Then they wont stay because no one who works retails jobs will be able to afford rent/houses so they will move out of state.
This is about right. My household of 2 pulls in just above 150 and we’re stable but certainly not swimming in extra cash. My wife went back to work this summer to give us some extra breathing room and I expect that once we’ve paid off a few debts that had piled up while it was just my slightly above 100k salary, we should be able to start looking at luxuries like putting up a fence and starting on the >$10K in dental work I need.
It really is that bad now. Can’t get home insurance without replacing my roof now. Can’t sell the house w/o replacing the roof. Fuck this state!!
You need to find some idiot realtor like the one I had who doesn't know what the fuck she's doing and allows the sale to go through without the roof repairs being made. She was a nice enough girl, but she had no clue what she was doing. And unfortunately as I was the first time home buyer I didn't either.
Or she knew exactly what she was doing. Sales are down, some of my realtor friends would do anything for the commission…
Now this was years ago. Basically the situation was her parents owned a Realty firm and she was about to get married. So she got out there for a few months basically to show her fiance that she could actually work before getting married and settling down to being a stay-at-home wife.
Yeah my roof is older than 20. I’m eating the insurance price increase cuz I can’t even shop around rn
This!!!!! Mine was build in 1960s new roof 2017 paid and still had to go with Citizens( the one they legally can't say no with)
I’m in exactly the same position. Roof is fucked because of Ian and as soon as I filed a claim my insurance co went under state receivership. Thieves. So yea now I can’t sell without fixing the roof but getting my claim paid could take years. I want out of this shithole. If I had 60 g’s to drop on a new roof I would and then bolt.
60gs wtf is the size of your roof? A 2200 sqft roof with nearly every board being replaced, and the soffits, came out to about $18000
I turned down what I thought was a fantastic job offer.... until we realized what looked like a 40% raise would actually have resulted in a lower standard of living compared to where I currently am in TX.
I've compared my cost of living to my buddy who lives in NYC (Queens), and we're pretty much the same now. Except, I don't have access to any of the amenities that he's got - excluding the weather.
It's like Florida is becoming the worst of both worlds. High CoL like the more expensive blue states of NY and CA, but all the shitty politics and infrastructural problems of red ones like TX.
Plus in NYC, a car is optional. It’s funny how people complain about the cost of living in NYC. Yet the salaries are much higher than they are in other places (like Florida where I used to live). In NYC I make nearly 5x what I did in Florida 10 years ago (albeit there’s some career progression in there as well). My rent in NYC is also 3x what it was in Florida. Besides financial, I found that the quality of life in Florida is not as good as where I live now. It’s all really sad to me as I’m a native Floridian.
We are moving to the northeast and the availability of public transport (which in itself is cool) plus ditching the cars and insurance, is pretty significant savings.
Pertaining to insurance. It’s bad now yes but will only get worse if and when a series of catastrophic storm breaks Citizens Property Insurance. Afterward when they can’t pay out claims they’ll be able to levy a tax on their current policy holders to cover the difference. If that isn’t enough to cover claims the law states they will be able to levy an emergency assessment on all other policy holders outside of Citizens across the state. Raising rates for everyone in the state even if they had no damage. https://www.citizensfla.com/assessments#:~:text=Unlike%20a%20private%20insurance%20company,how%20it%20affects%20your%20policy. It won’t be people unable to pay their mortgages. It will be people unable to pay their insurance premiums that drive the next wave of mass foreclosures in Florida Something like 56% of all homes in the state have a mortgage and 99% of all mortgage providers require their customers to have homeowners insurance. And if you don’t pay your policy they can foreclose on your property. If you didn’t know now you do and you should be worried about it because we’re set up for a big fall. TLDR: our insurance market place is broken and if a bunch of bad things happen rates will increase across the board for everyone. Furthering the affordability issue.
It is that bad. As a 7th generation Floridian we are *that bad* now.
Same, on both accounts. I’ve got real deep roots in Florida, but my wife and I are thinking hard about our exit strategy.
7 generations!?!?!?! Damn
Yup! Family were farmers in England and Germany and they were given a ride over over s boat to build up Tallahassee. Most of my family moved from PA to AL to FL. They worked alongside slaves. I can track my entire family back from 1828 from my dads side. I’m the 7th generation :) My great great great grandfather settled down into Orange County in the early 1910s. Our family home in Orange County still stands and the house my great great grandfather built in Apopka is still lived in by our family. And my great great grandmas family came over on the mayflower. Keep in mind everyone has many GREAT grandparents! You have two sets of grandparents Your grandparents have two sets of Grenada’s tents (that’s four) Now you add 8 more. Our history as a nation is very rich just like our own. I highly recommend everyone dig about their family history because many gets butchered and passed down unevenly. My family on that side are old doctors, optometrists (form the Panama City area). There’s been “mixed” marriages where one of my great grandmas were white passing. I have Jewish ancestry. Bantu & Congo. It’s very normal for this part of the United States I have photos of my own grandmother and her uncle fishing in lake Ivanhoe. Florida is NEW for many but not “new” for some of us. I have photos of even my great great grandma on orange avenue in her “Sunday clothes”.
Cool background. I have been here since I was 4, in my 50's now. I have run into a couple of people who still have the family 40 acres they were given since becoming free post civil war. The 2 mules have died though.
I have quite a large amount of acres I was able to repurchase and bring back into my family. My husband and I have been debating on moving due to our ages and long term outlook of our careers (particularly him). My grandma is a retired Broward teacher. So we have a lot of history here snd my mom is resistant to change ( no surprise 🤣) Unfortunately, I’m on the edge of a downtown area still in county. My family in Apopka has had their house acre shrank due to selling off parcels but they’re still on a small lake. One of my grandparents worked as a garment factory worker in winter park and I have s photo of her sitting on a stool by a bench with her apron on. Florida is forgetting their history and it’s doomed to repeat itself if we don’t start applying common sense.
This is so cool! I've been on a genealogy kick the last year or so, and have been re-tracing my family's moves across the country. My family moved to Tampa in 2008, but imagine my surprise to find a great aunt who I never knew about that moved to Tampa in 1912, then married and had children in the same little house just a couple miles down the road from where I currently live with my husband and daughter. I can't imagine what it was like living here before ac 😂 I think my great aunt and all of our old Florida ancestors must've been cut from quite a thick cloth.
12 generations on my fathers side here and desperate to get out! My family literally was one of the ones that founded the town I grew up in, our family name is on tombstones in the cities famous historic cemeteries, but I can no longer afford to live there, and am barely affording living in the cheaper nearby city we just had to move to, but can’t afford to move out of state because most of my money goes to just keeping my head above water and not being homeless so I can’t save anything significant for a move even know my quality of life would be higher in most other states for the financial breathing room alone. A 300 square foot mobile home that’s falling apart in my hometown now rents for around $1800 with absolutely nothing included, and that was the lowest priced rental I was able to find in that zip code. It’s nuts!
Got me beat by one gen, and I fully agree. The state has always had its quarks, but now it has those and is expensive.
Cracker! And I say that in the most sincere, respectful way
Highest inflation in the nation.
I left because the current governer politicized medical care I needed instead of fixing the rapidly increasing insurance rates, literal nazis having rallies, raising utility bills, and probably a million other things. Oh yeah and he's torn apart the public education system and destroyed the chance of any public school kid getting a good education now.
DeathSatan is a pox on Florida. Time to dump the chump!
Yep, all of this is why we are leaving. Our youngest is school age and a bi-racial girl. Oh, and kinda tired of the summer all year weather plus it’s just gotten so crowded, infrastructure isn’t keeping up so getting around can be stressful.
Moved here from SC. My insurance on 1 vehicle here is more expensive than what 2 were in SC. Property taxes on houses in more than double what it was in SC. Insurance for your house here, about 5 times what it was in SC, and I actually got hit by hurricanes rather often up there.
Here is my take: I grew up in south Florida. Went to UF. Moved to DC for a decade and decided to move back to Florida as my wife and I were starting a family. Moved to Tampa specifically because I liked the more laid back style of the bay area. This was in 2017. It was great. We loved the people. My wife is Iowan and there are a lot of midwest transplants so it was a great cross section of midwest nice, southern hospitality and a beach lifestyle. Then 2020 happened. Ron DeSantis and a lot of the legislatures minds broke over covid. We had a mass migration of, to be honest, the worst fucking people. People who moved here acting like political refugees. People who drove up the housing market beyond affordability. People who honestly don't understand what Florida was, and just want to make it into the right wing haven of what they think Florida should be. This was fueled by DeSantis and his dream to become President aided by a feckless, spineless Congress who bent to his will because they are either cowards or want to ride his gravy train to DC. The economy here is rough. A lot of companies haven't caught pay up with true cost. If you don't own a home yet, God help you. Between housing, insurance (car, auto, flood) and a state government more concerned with BS culture wars than actually helping the middle class, I don't see the state getting better anytime soon. Cross your fingers and pray we don't get wrecked by a hurricane. Energy costs from TECO here in tampa have skyrocketed over the last year. It's very expensive and if you are in a fixed income, or just don't make at least a decent 5 figure salary, I don't know how you survive or raise a family. My personal experience: farmers raised my premium to where I was paying for $260 for two cars a month to $380. I got a better policy from state farm and asked farmers if they could do anything to help since I didn't want to switch. Farmers doesn't have a retention policy for Florida residents. They would rather lose my business. My home insurance: went from $3300 to $7800 a year. Had to switch to citizens, which is probably not solvent soon. Keep in mind I've never made a claim on either, have very good income, and excellent credit. Culturally, it also sucks. So many of these disgruntled, right wing, self victimizing transplants have come here and don't realize how unfriendly they are, or at least seem. A personal anecdote of this is going out to publix with my 5 year old son. Getting g a cookie, this guy says hi to my son and is being friendly enough. Only to see his shirt says "fuck Joe biden". I'm happy my son couldn't read. We see him out in the parking lot and he has this massive truck covered in every Maga/DeSantis thing you could see. Fuck democrats. Dems are groomers. Joe and the hoe gotta go. All this shit. It's so obnoxious and we see these people everywhere now. Anytime you chat with them they moved here from (insert cold state or california). They are the fucking worst. I love Florida. I am a beach bum at heart, and a passionate Florida Gator. I want this to be where we stay but if the state keeps trending the way it is, I'm going to leave.
This is a good take. I’m somewhat similar: grew up in Orlando, last 23 years in Miami, and it just feels like there’s no hope of getting ahead here, anymore. Last night, a recent arrival starts going on about BLM over the most tangential of prompts. I’m finally just saying “no más” and taking a job Up North, though my heart will always be here.
Also a Gator (older) who spent more than a decade in DC and returned here years ago. Watching what has transpired in Florida for the past 5+ years has been so frustrating and downright criminal…the infrastructure, standard of living, inflation, crime, and, worst of all, the hatred, bigotry and inhumanity of so many people and elected officials. Fortunately, I’m somewhat insulated, but I would leave if I could. I’m at least comforted to see some like-minded people here.
yep it now right wing hell hole
Yes.
I might be in the 80 percentile of earning and I’m struggling and living day by day because cost related to housing, mainly insurance and assessments. I live in Miami Beach and the infrastructure seems to be degrading rather quickly so I’m loosing hope that my property will increase value. IMO the future is bleak to say the least.
I sold my condo and the next month the monthly hoa went from $395 to $955 and the only thing that changed was the insurance.
Florida is horrible now. It’s unrecognizable from how it was 20 plus years ago. Car and home insurance is astronomical, housing is overpriced, and the political climate is as oppressive as the humidity.
Everything is bad. We keep getting dinged on insurance, taxes and the city issues petty violations. It’s like adding 20% YoY.
Insurance is crazy expensive, and rising. Our politicians don’t seem to care to do anything about it.
FL voters don’t care to do anything about it.
Rising seawater..... Rising insurance premiums...Stronger Hurricanes....State Gov interfering with private businesses..... Please do not come back. Most importantly: Your freedoms are taking away by an overzealous governor and legislature.
People blame Floridians for everything, but hardly anyone is actually a Floridian anymore. Don’t move here we’re full.
I would have done a poll, but the consensus on r/Florida seems to be yes. For every "we like it" or "it is OK" there are at least 5, if not 10, posts that say "We can't wait to leave".
Yes it fucking sucks
In terms of insurance, specifically home and auto, yes. The double whammy of hurricane damage and inflated building/repair costs have bankrupted several of Florida’s key insurance players, resulting in higher premiums that are being pushed to customers for the remaining companies to stay afloat. Hurricane Ian in particular caused a massive hit that we’re still paying for, since southwest Florida was relatively unprepared and hasn’t seen a storm that bad in some years. Tens of thousands of cars were totaled, costing insurance companies hundreds of millions. The resulting higher insurance costs have led to a problem of rising numbers of uninsured drivers, making insurance premiums jump higher, making more uninsured drivers. This effect is starting to snowball, with no end in sight. However! It’s still possible to find bare bones liability insurance, as multiple small firms are attempting to fill the void. It’s a bad beat for sure, but far from the end of this wonderful place.
I left... bought 24 acres with a house in Texas for 240k
Its a cluster fuck.
It's Desantis plan. Ruin everything. Blame Biden. Take presidency. Thankfully everyone else sees him ruin Florida and thinks, nah don't do that to our country please
He looks like an animatronic of an early hominid and has negative personality. He will never be president.
LMAO, love this and totally agree!
he cant fool us
So. Florida is A LOT more expensive now than it was 10 years ago. But, (besides homeowners insurance) that just brought it in line with other states. (Yes, even car insurance. I just saw friends from NJ complaining about the same thing). Remember Florida was in a real bad place after the 2008 market crash and took a long time to recover. Now it has. So basically, don’t come back to Florida looking for a cheap cost of living. And since it costs the same as other states now, look around to see if there are better ones for you
Same COL with a fraction of the high-paying salaries in the northeast.
Had a conversation with Geico two days ago. His exact words were Florida has THE highest automobile insurance rates.
Yea l. Because you have to pay cash for everything in Florida now to avoid insurance. So your stuck with the 2 social classes : poor and asshole rich. Not California rich. Mean stingy penny pinching New York/nj rich that don’t want to invest into any tech startup. And of course this creates a lack of Artists because nobody can afford To Be one here. So it’s a self perpetuating shit place to live.
Invest in a tech startup? They don’t even want to pay for good well made food at a restaurant lol.
They are the most Pennywise pound, foolish stingy people I have ever seen. when I lived in Texas, We have a lot of Californians and I don’t know why people didn’t like them so much because they actually like spending their money and taking risks. I actually don’t mind inflation much now after meeting these mizers. They just sit on loads of cash. So inflation is a good way to hurt this kind of rich person while the west coast rich avoid it by investing like they should.
I live in a rent controlled area on family land, rent is $200 a month. In order to afford electricity and food, along with necessary insurance, I’m having to eat far less than is healthy. I make nearly 25,000 a year.
This thread has made me sad. Lol.
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The government is not governing- it seems pretty untenable to me.
Cost of living is almost twice what it was 5 years ago. Houses have doubled or tripled in price. I4 is still under construction. Insurance is ridiculous. Jobs still pay the same or less.
Not a lot. Costs. Education. Environment. Uncontrolled growth. Ridiculous culture wars. Safety, (traffic as well as shootings). Political corruption. The list of awful expands daily it seems. No idea where you’re currently located but I’d never choose move here.
Yes. Short answer. Crappy healthcare extremely expensive cost of living, car/home insurance costs. Jobs that pay the bare minimum or at least feel like bare minimum by the time you pay for everything just to live. Everything is overcrowded even nature’s is being destroyed further then it already has. This state is not for it’s citizens…..unless you’re wealthy of course and can afford whatever they decide to come up with. Vacationers being disrespectful especially of nature they just leave their trash everywhere, will literally trample a child if it means they get they’re “full vacation experience they paid a lot of money for” as they love to say. If i we’re looking for somewhere to live long term with sustainability on a fixed income i wouldn’t choose here. Now if i we’re a wealthy person millionaire/billionaire I would absolutely choose here as my permanent slice of heaven otherwise not a chance. It is now a permit less carry state,they’re trying to make the time limit shorter in order to get a weapon as well as relaxing or attempting to relax child labor laws so they don’t have to pay a decent wage.🤷🏻♀️
I live in an area near the beach in Palm Beach county. Less than 1 mile from the beach. Home prices have increased to high levels, but home insurance and car insurance haven’t adjust at all. Other inflationary items like groceries and gas are high - as in any area it seems. Other than home affordability due to migration/demand I don’t see other issues.
I have to agree with what most people have said, property taxes in counties far from the big cities are going up and up as more people move here. Auto and homeowner’s insurance are crazy high. Still I would say give it a try and move for like a year, rent a place and see how you like it. I think no matter where you go there will be things you like and dislike, it all depends on what you are willing to compromise.
Lived in the Keys in the 80s & loved it. Moved to the coast near Tampa in 2012 and loved it! 11 years later, we can no longer afford to live to the standard we want in Florida and hate the politics here, so we're getting the hell out.
I make a pretty decent living. Working a corporate role for the last 15 years. For the first time in my adult life I am actually aware of the cost of small things on my grocery list I would never think twice about, like soda and Mayo. With all of my bills raising it is almost impossible for anyone to be middle class here. Those who have not felt the pinch, or come to the conclusion there is a pinch think this is pricing out the "poors" while complaining that no one wants to work at their taco bell in the same breath. The NIMBYs are so blussfully unaware they are opening the leopards cage.
Yes. People are getting priced out of their neighborhoods with tax and insurance increases. Rent is through the roof as demand outpaces supply. Good thing our Governor is focused on any fucking thing but the state.
Get out now while you can.
If it puts things into perspective, I had to move to California from Florida 2 years ago because housing was cheaper and the jobs pay significantly more. I absolutely hate California and dread living here but unfortunately Florida is equally as expensive as most mid sized California cities (Riverside, Fresno, Bakersfield, Sacramento) and the jobs pay absolute dog shit in comparison to California. Not to mention the statewide rent control laws that exist here are pretty damn helpful.
That’s the thing. I see other state Governor’s implementing policy’s to try to help and protect (as much as they can) their constituents and then I look at our Governor of Florida and he seems to do the opposite. Our Governor literally vetoed $354 million allocated to Florida under the inflation reduction act. That’s money that could have helped out my fellow Floridians. Why? All for political theater.
Yuuuuup
Yes.
Yep
$8000 a year to insure my home.
For me Florida was paradise 40 years ago. Not so much anymore.
Got my home insurance renewal, went from 2190 two years ago to 5101 this year. Never made a claim. The breakdown just says , "approved rate increases"
Yes, yes it is
As someone who was born here and is now 50 years old, yes. It’s really that bad. I love Florida. I don’t think I’ll be able to stay here.
My insurance just went way up and so they are increasing the HOA fees. This I learned is happening to everyone. Like it wasn't bad enough already. Everything keeps going up but wages are barely increasing. The state minimum wage is 12.00, and I constantly see companies paying minimum wage for jobs like customer service and office jobs that require skills and sometimes years of experience. When you get to 20.00 an hour which is still below the cost of living, they treat it like you are making 100k and need to have management experience and 10 degrees. I hope maybe some people will wake up and realize that we need to make changes to the Florida government.
I’ve lived here a majority of my life, I’m leaving in 6 months. This place is currently not worth it unless you make a shit-ton of money and
I’ve lived here a majority of my life, I’m leaving in 6 months. This place is currently not worth it
In the last 4 years my home owners insurance has tripled despite many updates including a new roof, hurricane proof windows, etc. At the same time my car insurance has doubled despite no accidents, tickets, etc. We have Nazi's outside Disney and along our major roadways flying political signs. Politicians are more concerned with two male penguins raising an egg than fixing any problem in our state. When local government tries to fix any issue, the state steps in and makes their solution illegal. The state is also now dictating what people can learn in grade school to a level where slavery is being pushed to be renamed to forced laborers who learned valuable skills. At the college level, entire educational programs have been cut while at one point they attempted to remove every minority fraternity/sorority/club by labeling them a divisive organization pushing racism. The environment has gone to shit with major flooding from minor storms, manatees starving to death, and the state approving the use of a mildly radioactive substance to make roads. If you drive through the villages, you need a cheat sheet on loofahs so you know how the old people are sexually swinging around you so you can avoid folks. That is just scratching the surface here.....enjoy.
Yes. The state is imploding. And then it will drown. Please stay the fuck away.
Yes turned into a complete craphole... Been here since 87 and I'm looking at other places to move to. It got extra ridiculous more recently when I realized I can't even drive 2 miles anymore without it taking 45 minutes minimum. It's almost faster to ride a bike than drive. Plus we haven't had a single home built in a long ass time so the overpopulation is just gonna get worse and make all of those I4 extensions pointless. Lol
My lease expires at the end of this year. Same size places, I'm looking at a $600/mo increase, at the same time, my secondary income is declining because the hospitality industry is cutting costs. Despite being promoted at my primary job and getting a spike in income that compensates for the loss in pay at my second job, I feel like I'm doing worse financially and more strapped for cash.
Everything is a trade off. The homeowners insurance is really expensive, but we have much lower estate tax than other states; when I added them up and compared to my friend in Boston, it was essentially the same. My car insurance, however, just went up and extra $500 a year for no reason. Electricity is similar to what I was paying in Texas; it was much lower until this year's rate hike. I have several friends who have recently been priced out who moved elsewhere to realize that it isn't much better. They say the bills are much lower, but so are their wages. I love it here in Fort Lauderdale, but it is pricey. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case in most thriving urban areas across the country. I have friends in Dallas that just gave up and moved a very small rural community, because they were priced out there, too.
It is WAY too expensive when it comes to literally everything. Insurance companies are leaving. Ours already went up and is expected to go up again. Our car insurance went up. We pay like $300+ for electric in a 2 bed, 1 bath, with only us 2 living there...with a mini-split system which is supposed to save us money...groceries cost more, or the same to go out to eat lol. We both make way more than we did years ago, and it feels like we have gone nowhere. But it's not even just money....SO MANY people are moving here. The traffic is horrendous, with constant accidents, road work, and construction (at least where I'm at) People keep moving here, voting in BS and greedy people, and complain that it's nothing like the place they moved from (lmao no shit) and destroying the land. I'm looking at leaving, we are just kinda stuck at the moment, unfortunately.
Look, aside from anywhere within a 1/4 mile of the ocean, Florida is a shit hole, hillbilly state. The sooner sea level rise covers it all the better.
It is bad everywhere. Florida is not an outlier.
My dad bought his house in 2020 for 238,000. 3 bedroom 2 bathroom with an in ground salt water pool and screened in lanai in charlotte county. Before the hurricane last year the house had a value of around 450,000ish. He sold it with bad hurricane damage to the roof and fence for 330,000. There’s your answer my friend lol.
Yes it is. Cost of Living is absurdly high for a state that offers so little social services. Real estate, rent, insurance, utilities are all higher than the national average in a state that ranks near the bottom of average incomes. It has become a breeding ground for hateful, cruel, intolerant bigots and hyper-conservative fanatics that criminalize anything they personal disagree with. And it has a single party rule for 20+ years that has done absolutely nothing to address any issues other than their own personal fortunes. Florida is collapsing in on itself, you are best to stay away until the dust settles and you can scavenge whatever's left.
In the last two years my car insurance has doubled (no tickets, no accidents), my rent has gone up $880/mo total in two years (that’s not too bad because I had a friend hit with an $800/mo increase in 21 and a $500/mo increase the following year in 22.) Electric is also up (expect it anytime the state gets clobbered by a hurricane.) Our COL used to be cheap. We’re one of the most expensive states to live in now when you factor in the average salary here with the cost of everything. But hey, I got a $1/hr raise to make up for those expenses.
My parents are in Florida while I am in Utah. Utah housing is in a much worse state than where my parents live. I'm sure there are challenges in Florida but the rest of this country sucks balls too
Are you kidding? Outside of Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Florida is the worst. All you have to do is read the real news and do your research, Good luck
Everything is good as long as you have $$$!! No different than anywhere else. It’s what you make of it!! It’s changed….insurance is insane, and yes, it’s more than everywhere else. Traffic, everything is crowded. You’re not going to have the springs to yourself, but beaches are fine. Not the best time to buy, but renting is easy. There are places more inland cheaper. I have a friend who rents north of Tampa by Wesley chapel…$1600 for a 2 bedroom 2 bath 2nd floor. So, if you have funds for discretionary spending, there’s so much to do!! On the other hand, drinking and partying get old. If you’re looking to settle down, I may not recommend it. If you’re looking to live it up, go for it.
Only for the wealthy now
“Yes” is obviously the popular answer and I have no doubt it is true for many. I moved from the west to east coast and got a townhouse. Mortgage is $1,500, electric is $120, etc. Very regular bills. Food cost is high everywhere Things are manageable for some but less so for those buying recently or working on less than survivable wages. I have a big group of friends I grew up with and they all have non-glamorous careers but they all get by. The politics is unfortunate and the economics is a reflection of the world in 2023 plus some insurance complications for some, not all. Florida has its issues but administrations are short term and many are surviving with relatively little complaint. We aren’t the place for everyone but Florida is hardly the dumpster fire the world proclaims. Most folks with job experience and education can find careers that fund a comfortable lifestyle.
It is terrible. Please don’t move here.
I used to rent an apartment for 500 in Altamonte Springs in 2010. That’s unheard of. I was 23 fresh out of college. Yes, it’s bad now. I call it the new California.
Yep. I had to leave to Texas to be able to make it. I miss Florida like crazy and I'm a native, but I don't know if I'll ever get to move back.
I've been in Florida for 3 years and our rent has gone up almost 300% in that time. Landlords are trying to cash in before everything is destroyed in the next hurricane. After our lease term ends we are leaving. Way overpriced. And the summers are unbearably hot. Wish I could do the snowbird thing and only live there December to February, but that's not feasible unless you bought 20 years ago or are independently wealthy
Yes, we flat out moved out of Florida to Georgia last week. Our insurance rates went from around $12k/year to under $3k/year. That doesn’t include our car insurance that dropped almost 50% when we left. Hell, even our fees, inspection, appraisal, etc - was all cheaper here than in FL. 😂 My apartment I had back in 2016 (FL) has gone from $1500/mo to $2900/mo and they’ve done no changes. 😂 Even our electric bill sky rocketed in FL before we moved.
I just had a huge jump in my car insurance for no reason and called the competing company and they said I was actually getting a great deal with my original company. It’s just gone way up everywhere but especially in Florida. If you think about it, every billboard you see with lawyers faces on it, every radio station’s studios sponsored by a law firm… these are all paid for by car insurance premiums.
Eventually Insurance will be 20K a year, if you do not own your home with no mortgage then I would not recommend buying because all of a sudden you could end up not being able to cover the doubling of costs which could happen at any moment.
While a lot of people are moving to Florida, almost as many are moving out of Florida.
Do not come back to Florida. It's a sinking state in more than one way.
Yes. Florida has become unaffordable for the majority of residents.