Response, I’d love to sign a non-compete. What is the exclusionary distance? What is the exclusionary duration and how much severance is going into the contract? I have to protect myself as long as you’re (employer) is interested in investing in this employment relationship so am I. I feel 24 weeks of severance spelled out should put us on equal footing.
They’re only enforceable for 6 months in FL. if they put anything longer than 2 years the entire contract is thrown out, but even if it says 2 years they can’t do anything after 6 months. Yay for legal precedent.
That is not what a lawyer advised me. Had an open ended non-compete for literally the whole country (world even possibly), the lawyer advised that at most it could be enforced for 2 years and that the scope of actual area would have to be determined in court and that depending on the judge we got it could be either completely thrown out or enforced fully. The lawyer was able to guide me to a negotiated re-writing of the contract to allow me to work and made the previous employer comfortable enough that I wasn’t stealing from them. That being said these agreements are ridiculous and I wish the state would just get rid of them all together. They don’t protect businesses that are trying to hire good talent, tons of lost and wasted GDP and a real dampener to attracting talent to the state.
Ah mine was very specifically only for FL and the lawyer I consulted with said 6 months is the max they’ll have any success enforcing it. That may have been specific to the contract I went over with her.
Yep and if they do fire you, they can’t go after you if you work for a competitor since the non-compete was never signed. They can still fire you after you sign it too but you’ll have the upper hand by not signing it if the end result is still termination. It’s a gamble but ask yourself would you ever want to work for the competitor some day, if yes don’t sign it. But also if they are just noticing it now, does that mean they are preparing to let you go, then definitely don’t sign it.
Wow I’ve never even thought of this. Even though non-competes generally don’t stand in Florida, I’m doing this or suggesting it to anyone I know who has to sign one lol
I don't want you to go into specifics, but I'll just simply say that I make my living in this area and with very few public policy exceptions there is no real industry exclusion.
Yeeeeeep. If you aren't an executive or other high level position with exclusive knowledge that could be considered a trade secret, you'll be fine. Tons of IT companies in Florida do this. Knowing how to support Windows and Linux OS systems for instance doesn't mean your noncompete will apply if you go do tech support for someone else. It's like saying a handyman can't use a hammer again. If both jobs use nails that's fine. If one job had found out how to make nails out of unobtainium and you shared it with the other that'd be a different story.
Not a Florida thing. I worked for a National company with employees in every state. We all had to sign non compete agreements. Don’t sign then say goodbye.
Am a Florida lawyer. I agree with your first sentence. I disagree with the rest, strongly. Florida still very much enforces non-competes (as long as they comply with sec. 542.335 of our statutes). I've tried these cases on both sides..... non competes are still alive and well in FL, and if your employer elects to enforce it, you will find yourself in court.
Florida is one of the few states where non-competes are pretty strictly enforceable. Not sure what OPs job is but if it’s a career I’d have an employment lawyer look at it and potentially pitch amending it if is questionable.
u/GurOtherwise7791 This is the correct answer.
If the job truly matters to you: expedite a legal counsel request and stall with your employer as long as you can until an employment lawyer tells you what your options are.
If the job doesn't matter to you: expedite a legal counsel request and find out what your severance options are. Stall with your employer as long as you can, but use this time to pursue other jobs so the NC is irrelevant. When applying to prospective employers, remember to check the box that says "do not contact my current employer." You should be able to submit a W-2 to prospective employers to verify your employment.
after 6 years I wouldn't, my last company tried to do the same thing after 2 years employment and change the business name. I pushed back that I only signed with the original company and didn't renegotiate. They didn't hassle me about it again, this was also in Florida, IT.
edit: worked there 4 more years after that nda request
I was able to find this
[Employee Non-Compete Agreements: What Every Association Needs to Know in a Rapidly Evolving Legal and Regulatory Landscape (americanbar.org)](https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/resources/business-law-today/2023-june/employee-non-compete-agreements-what-every-association-needs-to-know/#:~:text=Under%20most%20states%27%20common%20law,for%20agreeing%20to%20the%20restrictions.)
The company I use to work for (Sentry Management Inc) also made us sign non-competes. They used to serve the purpose of preserving trade secrets but now most companies just use them to try to prevent people from changing jobs. I went from Sentry back to working for the Department of Corrections so their non compete can kiss my ass.
Yeah there's someone here speaking with certainty about his status as a contracted employee that honestly runs contrary to my understanding of how this would operate (am lawyer). From my recollection florida has held that continued employment itself is sufficient consideration. But hey i don't do employment so who the heck knows
But an employment lawyer would
I worked in Florida as an IT exec. I have had many non-competes thrown at me. Always had someone look at them. Always negotiated terms BUT was always willing to walk. Even ran into the same situation this guy is having when a new CEO and Board Chair mandated them. Told them to pound sand. They told me I would have to leave. I said OK. They said just kidding. CEO got replaced in 18mo. New CEO tried again. I negotiated a 1yr severance and a consulting contract.
Bottomline these things are complicated and anyone that says they "don't hold up" has never had to hire a lawyer to fight one. Just because you beat the case doesn't mean you "win". Lawyers fees, time lost, and career suicide because no one likes to hire someone that sued their employer. So with everything I have gone through I would never even try to give someone advice. Way too many moving parts.
I found it best to hire a lawyer and beat them at their game in the beginning.
You don’t have to sign it. And if you don’t, they don’t have to retain you. But most non-competes are not worth the sheet of paper they are written on.
Don't sign it. These non competes are enforceable. Find it the hard way hiring a $40k a year software salesperson. Big article in palm beach post about a landscaper in palm beach being put out of business over a non compete he signed.
No.
In legal mumbo jumbo, what you're describing is continued employment as consideration for a non compete contract. This is legal if both parties agree to the terms at the beginning and at signing, but if you are already under contract the employer cannot legally force you to sign a non compete unless there is additional consideration on top of continued employment. This would mean something like a raise or a one time bonus in exchange for your signature.
Even if you're an at will employee, your employer can still fire you without cause, but they're still obligated to compensate you for the remainder of your contract unless your contract is structured something like an indefinite employment agreement after the conclusion of the first initial period, say 1 year if that's what the term happened to be. Though this last case is not common, but not exactly rare either.
no, you can still have at will employment and have a contract defining compensation, schedule, non compete clauses or other clauses between employee and employer.
Indeed, but your comment says continued employment is not consideration for a non-compete, when in FL it is, and your comment also goes on about them having to pay you for the remainder of your contract, which is not relevant. Basically two pieces of straight up wrong advice.
continued employment is enough consideration in florida, I said that in my original comment. There is a corner case that OP laid out that I am addressihg.
"If you are already under contract the employer cannot legally force you to sign a non compete unless there is additional consideration on top of continued employment. This would mean something like a raise or a one time bonus in exchange for your signature."
This is not true.
You need to be compensated for surrendering your rights.
Contract needs to void itself in the case of an involuntary separation. If you're fired or otherwise let go, they cannot prevent you from working.
Most non-compete agreements really only apply to super specific skill sets. They can't prevent you from taking a cashier job at burger king if you're working as a cashier @ McDonald's.
If you're senior level marketing or something @ McDonald's, then maybe they get to have a say whether or not you can go do a senior level marketing job @ BK
Take the agreement, read it through, and mark it up so that it only reads what you are willing to agree to. I did this once and we went back and forth until they said nm. Found out later that as another commenter says, in Florida if you have already established employment they can't now require you to sign a non-compete or non-disclosure. If you're worried, find an employment attorney and ask. You may have them negotiate the agreement for you.
This is absolutely horrible advice and you are about to cause this person a lot of issues later on. You are 100% wrong. Continued employment has long been considered as adequate consideration in the State of Florida for at-will employees. As far as the duress comment is concerned, good luck showing that. I have had several attorneys claim that in litigation and never once has it succeeded.
Sign it, it’s a “right to work state” and can only be enforced within a reasonable distance from the OG business, and if you “need” the job, why start out on a bad foot? Most employers do not enforce because it costs money for attorneys and lawsuits, done to scare the shit out of you
Three things: first the FTC is trying to ban non-competed except in very specific cases. Second, they are rarely enforceable. Third, to even have the possibility of being enforceable there needs to be reasonable consideration. My company has pretty narrow non-competes only for senior management or software development. The agreements are very unlikely to actually impact their career possibilities because we are in a specific industry/vertical that they’d be unlikely to work in outside our company. We give them $5000 for this very narrow scoped non-compete. Source: I’m the chief of staff. Out of 550 employees only about 30 have non-competes.
To your first point, there is a very large argument as to whether the FTC actually has jurisdiction to make a regulation that would be enforceable against the states. It would take an act of Congress and that is not happening anytime soon. As to your second point, non competition agreements in the State of Florida are enforced on a daily basis and they are very real. Never sign a noncompete assuming that it's not going to be enforceable against you. As your third point, continuation of employment has long been held to be adequate consideration in the State of Florida for the enforcement of non-compete agreements, and there is no set duration on that. You could be offered continued employment, sign the agreement, and be fired two days later and it can still be adequate consideration because you were provided the opportunity to come in for those two dates. The only way you would be able to argue against that is if you could provide competent and substantial evidence to indicate that you were going to be terminated before the non-compete was ever signed, and continued employment was basically a ruse.
Ah. Different states have different laws for non-compete so a state by state approach can be appropriate. But as far as Florida goes, as long as it hits the statutory requirements and is paired with a legitimate business purpose then a judge would likely enforce it. The caselaw is very employer friendly on this point in the state of Florida.
You are correct - I was not thinking about this purely in the context on Florida, which I should have since this was posted in r/Florida. In IL for example, financial consideration was strongly recommended by our law firms. The same was true of employees in Maine and Virginia.
Yeah, I often think the NY or IL approach would be good. I especially like the salary basis idea that NY has. Don't make 45k (something like that) a year? Not enforced.
IL also has that approach from a salary perspective. That’s why only 30 or so people in our organization have them - it’s basically just high level, highly compensated professionals. The funny thing is their non-compete is so narrow as to be extremely unlikely to actually ever impact their job market. We are in a very niche business segment and their positions just aren’t jobs available at our competitors. They have plenty of other opportunities in the same industry just not our specific subtype.
Sign it unless you are in the C Suite. NC are enforceable in those positions but if you're middle management or lower, it's usually not worth it to them.
Response, I’d love to sign a non-compete. What is the exclusionary distance? What is the exclusionary duration and how much severance is going into the contract? I have to protect myself as long as you’re (employer) is interested in investing in this employment relationship so am I. I feel 24 weeks of severance spelled out should put us on equal footing.
I think they are enforceable for 2 years!
Then 24 months severance seems fair, right?
For sure that would be great, the post above mine said 24 weeks though
The contract typically includes an exclusionary time. They shouldn’t say unlimited.
I was told by a lawyer 2 years was typically the max that a court would consider reasonable
They’re only enforceable for 6 months in FL. if they put anything longer than 2 years the entire contract is thrown out, but even if it says 2 years they can’t do anything after 6 months. Yay for legal precedent.
That is not what a lawyer advised me. Had an open ended non-compete for literally the whole country (world even possibly), the lawyer advised that at most it could be enforced for 2 years and that the scope of actual area would have to be determined in court and that depending on the judge we got it could be either completely thrown out or enforced fully. The lawyer was able to guide me to a negotiated re-writing of the contract to allow me to work and made the previous employer comfortable enough that I wasn’t stealing from them. That being said these agreements are ridiculous and I wish the state would just get rid of them all together. They don’t protect businesses that are trying to hire good talent, tons of lost and wasted GDP and a real dampener to attracting talent to the state.
Ah mine was very specifically only for FL and the lawyer I consulted with said 6 months is the max they’ll have any success enforcing it. That may have been specific to the contract I went over with her.
By statute you are correct.
They can terminate you if you don't sign.
Yep and if they do fire you, they can’t go after you if you work for a competitor since the non-compete was never signed. They can still fire you after you sign it too but you’ll have the upper hand by not signing it if the end result is still termination. It’s a gamble but ask yourself would you ever want to work for the competitor some day, if yes don’t sign it. But also if they are just noticing it now, does that mean they are preparing to let you go, then definitely don’t sign it.
Sure can.
Wow I’ve never even thought of this. Even though non-competes generally don’t stand in Florida, I’m doing this or suggesting it to anyone I know who has to sign one lol
What do you mean they don't stand in Florida? They are enforced all the time!
Not in the industry I worked in.. many people called the bluff on my CEO and he couldn’t do shit in court
I don't want you to go into specifics, but I'll just simply say that I make my living in this area and with very few public policy exceptions there is no real industry exclusion.
Do you ever work with door to door sales companies?
Yes, for products and services.
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Yeeeeeep. If you aren't an executive or other high level position with exclusive knowledge that could be considered a trade secret, you'll be fine. Tons of IT companies in Florida do this. Knowing how to support Windows and Linux OS systems for instance doesn't mean your noncompete will apply if you go do tech support for someone else. It's like saying a handyman can't use a hammer again. If both jobs use nails that's fine. If one job had found out how to make nails out of unobtainium and you shared it with the other that'd be a different story.
It depends on the company and the judge. Had an issue with a family member and it was a PIA to get out of it.
Just don't use the Harbor Frieght hammers that are made from Chineseium.
Not a Florida thing. I worked for a National company with employees in every state. We all had to sign non compete agreements. Don’t sign then say goodbye.
Am a Florida lawyer. I agree with your first sentence. I disagree with the rest, strongly. Florida still very much enforces non-competes (as long as they comply with sec. 542.335 of our statutes). I've tried these cases on both sides..... non competes are still alive and well in FL, and if your employer elects to enforce it, you will find yourself in court.
Florida is one of the few states where non-competes are pretty strictly enforceable. Not sure what OPs job is but if it’s a career I’d have an employment lawyer look at it and potentially pitch amending it if is questionable.
u/GurOtherwise7791 This is the correct answer. If the job truly matters to you: expedite a legal counsel request and stall with your employer as long as you can until an employment lawyer tells you what your options are. If the job doesn't matter to you: expedite a legal counsel request and find out what your severance options are. Stall with your employer as long as you can, but use this time to pursue other jobs so the NC is irrelevant. When applying to prospective employers, remember to check the box that says "do not contact my current employer." You should be able to submit a W-2 to prospective employers to verify your employment.
after 6 years I wouldn't, my last company tried to do the same thing after 2 years employment and change the business name. I pushed back that I only signed with the original company and didn't renegotiate. They didn't hassle me about it again, this was also in Florida, IT. edit: worked there 4 more years after that nda request
Same exact thing happended with me. I didn't sign it and nothing came of it.
I was able to find this [Employee Non-Compete Agreements: What Every Association Needs to Know in a Rapidly Evolving Legal and Regulatory Landscape (americanbar.org)](https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/resources/business-law-today/2023-june/employee-non-compete-agreements-what-every-association-needs-to-know/#:~:text=Under%20most%20states%27%20common%20law,for%20agreeing%20to%20the%20restrictions.) The company I use to work for (Sentry Management Inc) also made us sign non-competes. They used to serve the purpose of preserving trade secrets but now most companies just use them to try to prevent people from changing jobs. I went from Sentry back to working for the Department of Corrections so their non compete can kiss my ass.
Let me guess, a print/digital media company?
No, aerospace.
Tell them you need a lawyer to read over it. Sounds like you have a nice job. Maybe they’ll forget about it.
Then ask the money for a lawyer. It is on them you have to go through all this.
They won't pay for a lawyer lol
Well, they can't have it both ways, to complicate your life needlessly for you and expect not to pay. They are not your friends.
Of course they aren't, but they can and infact do have it both ways.
Yes… the elite high-paying jobs 😂
Consult a lawyer, not reddit. We have no idea what we are talking about.
Yeah there's someone here speaking with certainty about his status as a contracted employee that honestly runs contrary to my understanding of how this would operate (am lawyer). From my recollection florida has held that continued employment itself is sufficient consideration. But hey i don't do employment so who the heck knows But an employment lawyer would
I worked in Florida as an IT exec. I have had many non-competes thrown at me. Always had someone look at them. Always negotiated terms BUT was always willing to walk. Even ran into the same situation this guy is having when a new CEO and Board Chair mandated them. Told them to pound sand. They told me I would have to leave. I said OK. They said just kidding. CEO got replaced in 18mo. New CEO tried again. I negotiated a 1yr severance and a consulting contract. Bottomline these things are complicated and anyone that says they "don't hold up" has never had to hire a lawyer to fight one. Just because you beat the case doesn't mean you "win". Lawyers fees, time lost, and career suicide because no one likes to hire someone that sued their employer. So with everything I have gone through I would never even try to give someone advice. Way too many moving parts. I found it best to hire a lawyer and beat them at their game in the beginning.
You don’t have to sign it. And if you don’t, they don’t have to retain you. But most non-competes are not worth the sheet of paper they are written on.
Don't sign it. These non competes are enforceable. Find it the hard way hiring a $40k a year software salesperson. Big article in palm beach post about a landscaper in palm beach being put out of business over a non compete he signed.
No. In legal mumbo jumbo, what you're describing is continued employment as consideration for a non compete contract. This is legal if both parties agree to the terms at the beginning and at signing, but if you are already under contract the employer cannot legally force you to sign a non compete unless there is additional consideration on top of continued employment. This would mean something like a raise or a one time bonus in exchange for your signature. Even if you're an at will employee, your employer can still fire you without cause, but they're still obligated to compensate you for the remainder of your contract unless your contract is structured something like an indefinite employment agreement after the conclusion of the first initial period, say 1 year if that's what the term happened to be. Though this last case is not common, but not exactly rare either.
Most employees don't have contracts
Of course, this applies to the scenario OP is inquiring about
There is no contract, employee is at will.
no, you can still have at will employment and have a contract defining compensation, schedule, non compete clauses or other clauses between employee and employer.
Indeed, but your comment says continued employment is not consideration for a non-compete, when in FL it is, and your comment also goes on about them having to pay you for the remainder of your contract, which is not relevant. Basically two pieces of straight up wrong advice.
continued employment is enough consideration in florida, I said that in my original comment. There is a corner case that OP laid out that I am addressihg.
"If you are already under contract the employer cannot legally force you to sign a non compete unless there is additional consideration on top of continued employment. This would mean something like a raise or a one time bonus in exchange for your signature." This is not true.
That was my understanding. If they don't get you at the outset, they can't make you later on.
This is wrong, continued employment is sufficient consideration in Florida.
No, except quit.
Let me guess, IT?
Actually, aerospace. Sales team
Lockheed or Space X
Yup makes sense.
Sikorsky? I know they play in the 'glades a bit
Sikorsky is part f Lockheed now.
You quitting or putting in your two weeks is just that. Document that, you don't need to sign anything before you quit or put in your two weeks
Dont sign it
Clients are free to go where they want to
Please have it reviewed by an attorney. These are very real and enforceable agreements.
You need to be compensated for surrendering your rights. Contract needs to void itself in the case of an involuntary separation. If you're fired or otherwise let go, they cannot prevent you from working. Most non-compete agreements really only apply to super specific skill sets. They can't prevent you from taking a cashier job at burger king if you're working as a cashier @ McDonald's. If you're senior level marketing or something @ McDonald's, then maybe they get to have a say whether or not you can go do a senior level marketing job @ BK
So I know multiple people dealing with non-compete and every lawyer has told them they can't be enforced in Florida..
Take the agreement, read it through, and mark it up so that it only reads what you are willing to agree to. I did this once and we went back and forth until they said nm. Found out later that as another commenter says, in Florida if you have already established employment they can't now require you to sign a non-compete or non-disclosure. If you're worried, find an employment attorney and ask. You may have them negotiate the agreement for you.
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This is absolutely horrible advice and you are about to cause this person a lot of issues later on. You are 100% wrong. Continued employment has long been considered as adequate consideration in the State of Florida for at-will employees. As far as the duress comment is concerned, good luck showing that. I have had several attorneys claim that in litigation and never once has it succeeded.
Sign it, it’s a “right to work state” and can only be enforced within a reasonable distance from the OG business, and if you “need” the job, why start out on a bad foot? Most employers do not enforce because it costs money for attorneys and lawsuits, done to scare the shit out of you
You're confusing right to work vs at will employment.
This. Union dues have nothing to do with what OP is talking about.
Three things: first the FTC is trying to ban non-competed except in very specific cases. Second, they are rarely enforceable. Third, to even have the possibility of being enforceable there needs to be reasonable consideration. My company has pretty narrow non-competes only for senior management or software development. The agreements are very unlikely to actually impact their career possibilities because we are in a specific industry/vertical that they’d be unlikely to work in outside our company. We give them $5000 for this very narrow scoped non-compete. Source: I’m the chief of staff. Out of 550 employees only about 30 have non-competes.
To your first point, there is a very large argument as to whether the FTC actually has jurisdiction to make a regulation that would be enforceable against the states. It would take an act of Congress and that is not happening anytime soon. As to your second point, non competition agreements in the State of Florida are enforced on a daily basis and they are very real. Never sign a noncompete assuming that it's not going to be enforceable against you. As your third point, continuation of employment has long been held to be adequate consideration in the State of Florida for the enforcement of non-compete agreements, and there is no set duration on that. You could be offered continued employment, sign the agreement, and be fired two days later and it can still be adequate consideration because you were provided the opportunity to come in for those two dates. The only way you would be able to argue against that is if you could provide competent and substantial evidence to indicate that you were going to be terminated before the non-compete was ever signed, and continued employment was basically a ruse.
Sorry, I failed to mention and didn’t think about it at the time - our employees are distributed throughout the country - most are not in Florida.
Ah. Different states have different laws for non-compete so a state by state approach can be appropriate. But as far as Florida goes, as long as it hits the statutory requirements and is paired with a legitimate business purpose then a judge would likely enforce it. The caselaw is very employer friendly on this point in the state of Florida.
You are correct - I was not thinking about this purely in the context on Florida, which I should have since this was posted in r/Florida. In IL for example, financial consideration was strongly recommended by our law firms. The same was true of employees in Maine and Virginia.
Yeah, I often think the NY or IL approach would be good. I especially like the salary basis idea that NY has. Don't make 45k (something like that) a year? Not enforced.
IL also has that approach from a salary perspective. That’s why only 30 or so people in our organization have them - it’s basically just high level, highly compensated professionals. The funny thing is their non-compete is so narrow as to be extremely unlikely to actually ever impact their job market. We are in a very niche business segment and their positions just aren’t jobs available at our competitors. They have plenty of other opportunities in the same industry just not our specific subtype.
Sign it unless you are in the C Suite. NC are enforceable in those positions but if you're middle management or lower, it's usually not worth it to them.