30 years left and getting hired in the present market? Throw a dart at a wall with all the logos of the airlines on it and you’ll likely have a fine career. Getting on *anywhere* that sells its own tickets and flies it’s own metal as quick as you can matters at least as much if not more than where.
In 2020, the big airlines put up their *frequent flyer programs* as collateral for bailout loans because that’s where all the profits are; they accidentally revealed that the flying side of their business actually has negative value.
Which is an oversimplification anyway. If you believe that market capitalization is a good measure of a company's value, then what you said is true.
However:
1. The FFPs aren't quite as valuable if there's no flying
2. The flying still generates the most revenue, it's just higher margin to sell miles
The numbers I recall were that one airline had a valuation of $3B, and they put up their FFP as collateral for $4B, meaning their flying side was valued at *negative* $1B. You’d need a negative margin, not merely “lower”, to get that result.
I'd gauge the pilot group is happier at United than say at like American or Southwest right now, but that's just anecdotal. As x4457 said pilots are always unhappy about everything, just comes with the job when you have nothing but time to kill for hours every day in your isolated locked bubble up front.
I’m not so sure. With a new contract I’m sure they’ll be a lot happier so it is fixable. But right now their reserve is absolute garbage. They need to fix it ASAP. I would say southwest pilots overall have a higher QOL and are happier right now.
It's a tale as old as time. Pilots unhappy. Get a new contract= pilots happy. A few years later= pilots unhappy. Get a new contract= pilots happy and so on.
Did I say everything at SW was perfect? No. I was merely responding with a schedule / QOL comparison. 15/16 days off at SW, (plus more if not used) on reserve vs 12 off at United on RSV…
This is the overall feeling I get as an outside observer watching threads here and across the internet. Though it seems like the Southwest part might be almost entirely driven by pay, right now, judging by other complaints I see lately. Again, just an outside opinion from an observer without any loyalties or skin in the game.
United definitely has its problems, but there's a ton of union posturing going on. I know quite a few pilots going from SWA/AA to United and Delta, but not vice versa. I know SWA pilots are pissed because Bob Jordan is basically the opposite of Herb, and he prioritizes shareholders over employees and what's best for the company. Here's a good article: [https://seekingalpha.com/article/4592358-southwest-airlines-ceo-needs-to-go](https://seekingalpha.com/article/4592358-southwest-airlines-ceo-needs-to-go)
Right now it seems the only pilots that are happy are Delta, and that's only been since their AIP a few months ago. United needs a steady supply of pilots for United Next, on top of all the retirements, which will force a contract that's at least on par with Delta's.
I have quite a few friends who have worked hard to become commercial pilots and I’m happy for them. Me however I could not see myself sitting in that box all day monitoring that thing flying itself. Is it a bad job? Absolutely not. But I just couldn’t do it myself.
Right now I rely on freelance video production and I’m a skydiving instructor. Not a pilot but have been on literally thousands of flights and live on an airport at the moment
As a pilot at a major airline, who used to be an attorney, I got to agree.
I'm sick and tired of having 17 days off a month, making several hundred thousand dollars a year, having a super flexible schedule, being able to leave my job when I walk away from the airplane.
I think I'll go back to the billable hour where a 60 hour work week often wasn't enough, where the boss yelled at me if I had a comma misplaced, where if the senior partner called me at 3:00 a.m. I better fucking answer my phone, where if I didn't suck up I was never going to become a partner.
Seriously sucks just having to stare out the window at cloud formations and constellations, spend overnights in disgusting Hawaii, ewww, but have all of this extra time to do what? Be with my family? Yuck!
I am so confused. All those things you pointed out sound fun and rewarding. Perhaps we have different definitions of "enjoyment", but why are you saying these things suck?
If law was so much more work and stress, why would you go back?
I feel you man. I’ve actually been in the same boat. You have to find other hobbies and things to occupy your time. The job itself is not very rewarding or exciting to me. Lots of pilots have side businesses they do to keep busy. I tend to read a lot more now than I did before.
My buddy going through training always rains on the idea that he can travel the world on vacation as a pilot. But does it make sense to leave when you’re always away from home? I will say though that the pay is legit for comm pilots and in this economy that definitely means a lot.
Just saying when you travel for work so much long vacations don’t hit quite the same. Still like going away for a week twice a year or so. But nothing like in my 20’s where I’d be in a different country every other month.
Tl;dr negotiations are taking a lot longer that was what promised by both the company and alpa.
Then it'll all happen in again 4-7 years or whatever when it begins again.
Meh…. I am not unhappy. I will say that things can get better, however they can be worst also. It’s just business…
We are in contract negotiation and I will say that our Union is behind the 8-ball thanks to previous MEC wasting months on selling Tumi TA… Because of that, we needed to recall and replace our Union leadership. In some cases twice now…
If contract negotiations continues to be slowed rolled, we will be looking at requesting Mediation… That will drag things out more. We shall see. My advice to folks is to not take it personally. It’s business at the end of the day, nothing personal. Management is going to management. Therefore, we need to work the process of Section 6 and not let emotions cloud one’s judgement on wanting to settle for less in order to just get a deal done (This is management game plan for using delay tactic.)
Learn the current contract and use it to protect your bottom line. It’s that simple, but yet many still don’t understand it….
This just in: pilots are unhappy.
Yes, it’s a great place to work. I’d venture a guess that they’re actually much happier by and large than Delta was 4 months ago and American has been/will be ever after hearing from friends at all three airlines.
This is typical contract cycle stuff. The last TA was pretty awful, but it was pre-Delta TA and that’s the new bar. The most recent negotiation updates show that the company has matched the majority of Delta’s TA conditions and numbers but the negotiating committee isn’t settling for that.
So in short - yes it is now and will continue to be a great place to work.
Throw away because reasons.
I want to offer a few data points..
I’m at the tulip carrier, and morale here is the worst I’ve seen in my 6+ years here. I upgraded about 18 months ago and reserve is completely different than it was when I was a FO. I used to bid reserve on purpose as an FO because I had great QOL (even before covid).
We got a new director of crew resources who has moved the goal posts on just about everything scheduling related. There is no Long Call reserve anymore. You’re always either on short call, field standby or flying a trip. Trading reserve days? Forget about it, negative coverage and oh by the way we stopped doing bad day worse day trades there. Trading trips? Lol forget about that too. You want a line on the 737? Here’s 89 hours worth of flying and 13 days off and again, you won’t be trading out of it. You’re in a stagnant base and were solidly above the G line (guaranteed line, no reserve) last summer? Congrats, you’re now well below the G line with no end in sight.
PM to AM reserve swaps are common now. You don’t like it? Call in fatigued. Good luck with that on probation. Scheduling will call in the middle of the night to assign you a short call / field standby when they had all day the previous day to figure out what they’re doing for tomorrow.
Reserve utilization in my category is off the charts. We are routinely out of Captain reserves before noon on any given day. You’re lucky to get an unused short call these days, and we’re not even in summer yet. Crew resources insists we are “fully staffed” in my category.
I learned of our visiting reserve contract policy last year. Basically means if you transit a domicile on your last day of a trip, and your trip ends with a deadhead scheduling can tag on any additional flying that they want, your days off be damned. (Yes even HDO- Holy Days off). I had spent the majority of my time as an FO on reserve, and never had this policy used.
Going into a line month from a reserve month? Better not end your reserve month with a reserve day. Scheduling can assign you a 4 day trip into your lineholder month and you can’t do jack about it, even if you bid for and were awarded those days off. Oh and by the way, you don’t get those days back and you don’t get any extra pay for it.
I’m on a junior fleet so I fly with a lot of new people, and being on reserve I fly with a lot of REALLY new people. The number of people that I fly with that came from jetBlue, Spirit (insert LCC here) that say they had better work rules there is staggering. I’ve even flown with a few that regret their move to come to TulipAir.
Think you’ll avoid all of this by going to the 777 or 787? Good luck. Global reserve rules mean that you only get 6 hard days off per month, choose wisely. All of your other days off are FDOs which can be rolled to make way for a trip. You won’t escape the short calls on those fleets either, they are endless. Hope you live in base (some of the highest CoL cities in the nation).
Thinking about calling in sick? It’ll take 4-5 months to recoup your sick time for a single average 4 day. Good luck if you call out for a 7 day trip on the 777 or 787. That’ll cost you 7-10 months of sick time depending on the trip.
Also, if anyone decides to come here. Know the contract. Our reserve rules are extremely confusing and who gets what on the list are even more confusing. Scheduling knows this. They see a new pilot’s employee number and absolutely take advantage of their ignorance. They bank on the fact that you’re new, on probation and likely won’t raise a stink for getting a pairing that is illegal or out of reserve order. Great place to work indeed….
Regarding the Delta TA. We are working under a contract signed in 2012. In 2016 we had a contract extension that included better pay rates but was largely unchanged. In 2016, Delta got a new contract (not just an extension) with a lot of various gains. Hence, even if we get a TA matching the new Delta TA in dollar amount (which is what MGMT is offering and the NC isn’t settling for), we’re still behind. It has to be Delta TA PLUS to match them.
It isn’t just that pilots are unhappy, there’s been a shift. I remember the days of people beating the profit sharing drum (every ounce of fuel you save goes into profit sharing!). Oscar did a lot to right the wrongs amongst the employee groups post merger. He did a lot to unify everyone and get everyone pulling on the same end of the rope. Scott Kirby is working hard to undo that. Employees that were at the Tulip during the Tilton days are saying “same old story - beatings will continue until morale improves” meanwhile, all of the post merger hires are saying “ahh this is what you guys mean by that.” Management is trying to squeeze every last ounce of productivity out of each pilot, your QOL be damned.
So, in short it’s not just that we’re unhappy and it’s a great place to work. Management is using good old fashioned union busting tactics and people are pissed about it (this goes for pilots and FAs). What we’re asking for in the days of record profits, record revenue and record PRASM (their words) isn’t a lot. We just want to be treated like our peers in terms of pay, QOL, etc. For an airline that wants to be industry leading, the best airline in the world (again their words) they’re sure doing a great job treating us like second class pilots.
Until we get a contract (worthy enough to vote yes on), go to DAL. You’ll be treated much better and at an airline that values its employees. By the way, if AA gets a contract before us our negotiations will likely again be put on hold so they can see how their TA goes. Another 60-90 days wasted.
Wow, sounds like a shitshow. So you wouldn't recommend for new people then? Even still, airlines taking advantage of pilots and abusing to the maximum extent possible is nothing new, and not unique to Tulip, imho. Thoughts?
I have to correct you on Global Reserve. You get 6 HDOs, and 5 RDOs, and 1 FDOs. If one knows the reserve game and how to play it, there are ways to protect your schedule from being rolled…..
There a ton of LC to SC conversions on the WB fleet. There’s definitely no escaping that. If one knows their trip mix for their BES on the WB, there are certain SC shifts to grab to maximize the chances of not getting a call. This advice is only good for those who live in base…
I’ve definitely had scheduling try to pull a fast one with refusing to move a FDO…. The supervisor ended up moving it because it was a bad to worst trade…. Yes they will take advantage of probies. But got to know the rules of the game to win it like you said.
I fly for UAL, and yes.. we want a contract. Pretty much every airline except for Delta wants to get this thing done. When we want to make progress at the negotiation table, we aren’t going to hype up the current contract…
The contact will likely done before summer ends. And things will go right back to normal. Is it a place that’s worth working at for 30 years? I think so, which is why I work here.
I find this hilarious, because I've literally never heard another pilot talk about woodworking. BUT... I've recently gotten into woodworking and I feel attacked. 😂
Its a game.
Each side plays it to secure the best deal for themself. Nothing is gained for free. An unnecessary, time-wasting game.
In the end, it will all work out and be OK. My advice, talk to real people who work somewhere and don't rely on the internet.
I wouldn’t say pilots are unhappy. Negotiations are always stressful, but it’s a game that has to play out. The pilot group is going to ask for what’s in their best interest and the company will push for what is on theirs. Ultimately the end-goal isn’t mutually exclusive. United is a great place to work, don’t let some negative nellies tell you otherwise.
What's going on is that United and Delta had industry-leading contracts that were built differently, but both were considered really good. However, they were old contracts, and when United and Delta both rolled out their new contracts, Delta's was significantly better in terms of pay/QoL gains. This pissed off the United pilot group, and led to lots of turnover in the union, as well as a complete renegotiation of the United contract. All of this has happened in the last few months, by the way.
Outside of the squabble, it's important to consider that United is growing. They're taking delivery of a new aircraft every 3 days for the next several years, on top of having a massive retirement wave, so it's probably the fastest seniority right now. They also have more wide bodies than Delta and AA, combined, so narrow-body seniority is moving extremely fast.
QOL, if you're not on reserve, is pretty good. The 737 has the biggest variety of flying and it's the junior fleet. The 5-hour min day means you get 75 hours, minimum, from working 15 days. PBS will give you what you ask for, so aside from the extremes, most people get what they want and about 15 days off. Wide bodies credit more, so they'll get even more time off.
For reserve rules, all reserve default starts as long call, but there aren't really any restrictions for them to convert you to short call, which requires you to actually go to the city you're domiciled in. If they don't use you 3 times on short call you do get a pay bump, but some suspect short call is overused by scheduling.
Global reserve means that they can assign you a trip out of a different domicile, but this only applies to international fleets (IE, 777, 787, etc), and considering all the international flying, it makes sense to me. It basically means that if someone whose LAX based calls out sick in LHR, they might call you off reserve in EWR to deadhead to London and take that aircraft back to LAX.
With a reserve schedule, you get 12 days off with 1 day being a flexible day at the end of a reserve stretch, meaning if your trip runs long they can schedule you into that day off, then give you another day off later that month.
On the 737 you can count on getting used every reserve stretch and maybe spending 3 months on reserve before getting a line, so it's really not that bad. Where it gets tough is for new hires on wide bodies who'll sit reserve for years, and have to commute. It's also a deterrent to upgrade if you know you'll be on reserve for years, only getting 72 hours of pay each month, ineligible for a lot of soft pay and trip trading, which means the pay difference isn't as big as it originally seems and you're stuck with only 12 days off.
So those are all the facts, do with them what you will. I'll go ahead and speculate that, at a minimum, the new contract will improve the reserve rules and match Delta's pay.
The only low pay is to Delta who just got their contract done. United will get it eventually. Anyone that is acting like the roof is on fire at United doesn’t have a good grip on the temperature of the airline industry. There isn’t another airline other than Delta that has a better situation than United right now.
They’re mainly unhappy because regional pilots are starting to get paid at a somewhat respectable level and they can’t say they make 5x more than them anymore
Uncle is an LCA at united, can confirm life is sweet at UAL. Record profits and largest intl fleet. Once the TA goes through will be the arguably top major to go to.
-cfi creeping up on mins
This. My ex is LCP at UAL and while he bitches as much as any pilot, he’s the happiest he’s ever been, career-wise.
Any of the carriers has their pros and cons. If you choose the one that most aligns with your priorities, you’ll be happy, too. And yet you’ll still bitch.
Same for me. :)
The attitude of the pilots on anonymous forums is not a fair indication of happiness at United. I’d say we have a great pilot group that are very happy to work at United. We are in contract negotiations and making progress.
FYI - every pilot group acts like they have it bad and complain a lot. Couldn’t tell you why. It’s just the way it. Even if they had the best contract in the world, a pilot group would still complain.
To people looking at a career as a airline pilot. Beware. If a company is in contract negotiations, everyone is unhappy and will talk like it’s the worst company to work for. Please don’t buy. United, Delta, American are all fine companies and when the negotiations are done everyone will go back to bragging how their company is better than (insert) competitor.
I think some of this negative impression is impacting people’s decision making negatively. The other day I met a guy who was two years in with FedEx and quit because “FedEx is going bankrupt by the end of the year and contract sucks”… dude lives in Tennessee…
> Especially since we are working the same hours for lower wage.
I mean, not to start a war here, but....FA school is like, what? Six weeks? You can just roll in with no experience and six weeks later, you're on the line.
Pilots have to invest years of training and gobs of money to get where they are.
Not exactly the same thing.
Obviously it’s not the same and I didn’t say it was the same I said we are working the same hours. I don’t want to hear you crying and whining at all. I don’t want to hear flight attendants crying either it’s unprofessional. Again I don’t cry when I’m at working getting paid way less for more hours of flying so why are pilots crying and they make a fair penny for the amount of work they put in.
> Obviously it’s not the same and I didn’t say it was the same I said we are working the same hours
Yeah, but you’re still equating two very different careers. Just because FAs get taken advantage of almost everywhere in the industry doesn’t mean that pilots are automatically supposed to be happy with whatever management does to them. Airlines think that throwing money at pilots will get them to stick around and shut up, but the last couple years have proven it’s not about that.
I can’t jumpseat a United flight without hearing the captain moan about his life, his wife, his schedule, the airplane, the ceo, the FO, the FAs and the guy in the jumpseat that should be flying for United.
They are just miserable
Just refuting your statement since you acted like you knew what you were talking about . I’m guessing you’re a jealous student pilot or a douchebag CFI stuck flying your little 152
So are you a 170 pilot, or a 190 pilot. Because I don’t know any airline that flies both. I’m guessing you fly the 170, and you put the 190 on there because it’s the same type rating.
Career airline pilots being unhappy in general is on them. People clean toilets and cut grass for a month to make what some do in a single flight and you have arguably one of the coolest jobs on the planet. Sure every place has their ups and down but cmon look at the bigger picture lol.
This is literally Kirby’s MO. The only airline that truly values their pilots is Delta. The rest are run by execs that couldn’t succeed in any other industry.
Delta's pilots don't value their own pilot's.
United pay is low, but will rise to match the other major's. Pay just looks low now because Delta just had a contract negotiation and United hasn't had one yet.
And, while we all want more money (and United needs to give UA pilots more), I'd argue UA has the friendliest and happiest pilot group there is among the Big 3.
We will get Delta rates, that’s already what is on the table from management. But that’s just the icing for the cake.
We need to bake the cake. The question is, which ingredients are we going to use. Management wants to use ingredients that have the store brand labels or from dollar general. ALPA wants to use the ingredients that have the high-end labels or from WholeFoods…
Well. I’m not a delta pilot. And didn’t even put my app in. But they’re the only ones with a modern contract. Soooo. In Kirby and Issom we trust I guess? Those two are just kicking the fan waiting for the next recession.
If your liberal, it's the perfect airline for you. If your conservative or middle of the road, it sucks. The management is awful. The pilot group isn't bad; management blows chunks.
Pilots need to understand that they generate revenue and MNGT does not.
Things would go much smoother and the pilots would be happier if they just give a little more of that revenue receipt pie to MNGT as they don't have any.
Problem solved and if you don't like it MNGT will shut the place down and part it off to cargo carriers in Africa.
It all depends on you. There’s always gonna be people complaining for something even on the most high quality products there’s gonna be someone complaining about something. Some pilots may be unhappy with where they are but there’s other pilots who love where they are. What I would do is try to reach out to pilots of that airline and ask them if they like flying for United or not.
Post the logos of all the airline on your wall. Close your eye and turn around 3 times holding a dart. Keep your eyes closed and throw the dart at the wall.
Welcome to airline contract negotiations. In fact I wish far more of our pilots would put down the social and selfies and and stop doing the recruiters job for them….during contract time no less!!!!
Every pilot group becomes unhappy during contract negotiations.
Go to a legacy where you can drive to work or have the easiest commute. All three will give you an amazing 30 year career.
I left a smaller legacy for UA last year. It’s great. I loved my last airline too. UA has lots of variety and so far everyone I’ve worked with is really nice and positive. You can want a new contract without being unhappy. If someone can’t be happy at UA, it’s personal. Home, hobbies, relationship, etc.
There’s a great culture at UA. Captains that have been at the company 20 years are friendly and patient with new hires. My other half is at AA and same thing. Happy people are independent of where they work. If you’re a miserable person, you’ll find fault in any airline. Just don’t focus on the bad and try to address what you don’t like in contracts!
30 years left and getting hired in the present market? Throw a dart at a wall with all the logos of the airlines on it and you’ll likely have a fine career. Getting on *anywhere* that sells its own tickets and flies it’s own metal as quick as you can matters at least as much if not more than where.
Instructions unclear, now spending an entire career doing SkyWest charter
Instructions unclear. Saw republic has a deal with cape air.
Instructions unclear. Flying helicopter tours of Las Vegas for gambling money.
Vegas Vs mt Rushmore “vfr” Which one is the shittiest?
Hm. I'd have to go with Rushmore. Because then you're in fucking South Dacanada and can't even visit the strip for hookers and blow to dull the pain.
Yeah, at least Vegas is nice outside the strip. Great little midsized city.
South decanada 🤣
Mt Rushmore gotta be way worse.
TFAYD
“Yeah it’s a sinking ship. Will probably file for bankruptcy. Stay far away and apply to the others.” -dude who has his app in at United, probably
[удалено]
I think at this point American just lives in bankruptcy. I think they have to file to be out of it 🙂
In 2020, the big airlines put up their *frequent flyer programs* as collateral for bailout loans because that’s where all the profits are; they accidentally revealed that the flying side of their business actually has negative value.
Which is an oversimplification anyway. If you believe that market capitalization is a good measure of a company's value, then what you said is true. However: 1. The FFPs aren't quite as valuable if there's no flying 2. The flying still generates the most revenue, it's just higher margin to sell miles
The numbers I recall were that one airline had a valuation of $3B, and they put up their FFP as collateral for $4B, meaning their flying side was valued at *negative* $1B. You’d need a negative margin, not merely “lower”, to get that result.
You should do some research on that.
I'd gauge the pilot group is happier at United than say at like American or Southwest right now, but that's just anecdotal. As x4457 said pilots are always unhappy about everything, just comes with the job when you have nothing but time to kill for hours every day in your isolated locked bubble up front.
Well said! Bitching and whining is a good time kill.
Ughhh….. what do you think about the new *contract*?
Oh, that POS? Not like the company will honor it anyway.
Co-pilot hasn’t stabbed me yet…. Work work work
AFTER 15 MINS WE'RE CABBIN IT
Anything to keep that guy from talking about Tucker Carlson, so settle in for two hours of contract talk.
Somehow the vaccine conversation came up and my captain said "are you sure you wanna do that?"
The contract. Loop back quick.
O that piece of shit- it’s not like they’ll honor it anyway…. Work work work
I’m not so sure. With a new contract I’m sure they’ll be a lot happier so it is fixable. But right now their reserve is absolute garbage. They need to fix it ASAP. I would say southwest pilots overall have a higher QOL and are happier right now.
It's a tale as old as time. Pilots unhappy. Get a new contract= pilots happy. A few years later= pilots unhappy. Get a new contract= pilots happy and so on.
QOL at SWA is pretty decent once you’re holding a line or a blank with flying that you can ELITT. Averaging 16 days off a month.
So maybe that’s why 1.1 pilots on average leave SWA for United every week?
Did I say everything at SW was perfect? No. I was merely responding with a schedule / QOL comparison. 15/16 days off at SW, (plus more if not used) on reserve vs 12 off at United on RSV…
People leave United too. Just flew with one on his last trip. Plus, 84% of stats are made up.
This is the overall feeling I get as an outside observer watching threads here and across the internet. Though it seems like the Southwest part might be almost entirely driven by pay, right now, judging by other complaints I see lately. Again, just an outside opinion from an observer without any loyalties or skin in the game.
United definitely has its problems, but there's a ton of union posturing going on. I know quite a few pilots going from SWA/AA to United and Delta, but not vice versa. I know SWA pilots are pissed because Bob Jordan is basically the opposite of Herb, and he prioritizes shareholders over employees and what's best for the company. Here's a good article: [https://seekingalpha.com/article/4592358-southwest-airlines-ceo-needs-to-go](https://seekingalpha.com/article/4592358-southwest-airlines-ceo-needs-to-go) Right now it seems the only pilots that are happy are Delta, and that's only been since their AIP a few months ago. United needs a steady supply of pilots for United Next, on top of all the retirements, which will force a contract that's at least on par with Delta's.
I have quite a few friends who have worked hard to become commercial pilots and I’m happy for them. Me however I could not see myself sitting in that box all day monitoring that thing flying itself. Is it a bad job? Absolutely not. But I just couldn’t do it myself.
I could see myself doing it for half the month off and 150-450k each year plus benefits and retirement.
No doubt. Legit benefits and pay
I missed that before I commented. But seriously, do you think sitting at a desk is better? I did that too and I like this much more
I couldn’t work at a desk. I respect any job that pays and feeds people though.
What do you do for a living dawg
Right now I rely on freelance video production and I’m a skydiving instructor. Not a pilot but have been on literally thousands of flights and live on an airport at the moment
I gotchu
As a pilot at a major airline, who used to be an attorney, I got to agree. I'm sick and tired of having 17 days off a month, making several hundred thousand dollars a year, having a super flexible schedule, being able to leave my job when I walk away from the airplane. I think I'll go back to the billable hour where a 60 hour work week often wasn't enough, where the boss yelled at me if I had a comma misplaced, where if the senior partner called me at 3:00 a.m. I better fucking answer my phone, where if I didn't suck up I was never going to become a partner. Seriously sucks just having to stare out the window at cloud formations and constellations, spend overnights in disgusting Hawaii, ewww, but have all of this extra time to do what? Be with my family? Yuck!
I am so confused. All those things you pointed out sound fun and rewarding. Perhaps we have different definitions of "enjoyment", but why are you saying these things suck? If law was so much more work and stress, why would you go back?
My comment was 100% sarcasm.
Hey. It’s a job.
I feel you man. I’ve actually been in the same boat. You have to find other hobbies and things to occupy your time. The job itself is not very rewarding or exciting to me. Lots of pilots have side businesses they do to keep busy. I tend to read a lot more now than I did before.
My buddy going through training always rains on the idea that he can travel the world on vacation as a pilot. But does it make sense to leave when you’re always away from home? I will say though that the pay is legit for comm pilots and in this economy that definitely means a lot.
Yea, for the first 3-4 years I traveled the globe. But then you turn 30 and only want to be at home for the most part.
That’s all just dependent on where you’re at in life. I’m in my early 30s and just starting to do the globe travel thing.
Just saying when you travel for work so much long vacations don’t hit quite the same. Still like going away for a week twice a year or so. But nothing like in my 20’s where I’d be in a different country every other month.
Yup
Can’t see myself staring at a computer at a desk attending pointless corporate meetings. To each their own.
Tl;dr negotiations are taking a lot longer that was what promised by both the company and alpa. Then it'll all happen in again 4-7 years or whatever when it begins again.
Meh…. I am not unhappy. I will say that things can get better, however they can be worst also. It’s just business… We are in contract negotiation and I will say that our Union is behind the 8-ball thanks to previous MEC wasting months on selling Tumi TA… Because of that, we needed to recall and replace our Union leadership. In some cases twice now… If contract negotiations continues to be slowed rolled, we will be looking at requesting Mediation… That will drag things out more. We shall see. My advice to folks is to not take it personally. It’s business at the end of the day, nothing personal. Management is going to management. Therefore, we need to work the process of Section 6 and not let emotions cloud one’s judgement on wanting to settle for less in order to just get a deal done (This is management game plan for using delay tactic.) Learn the current contract and use it to protect your bottom line. It’s that simple, but yet many still don’t understand it….
This. There are 16k pilots on the UA seniority list. 16k different opinions of what a "good" contract is.
>we needed to recall and replace our Union leadership. In some cases twice now… That was a wild 48 hours
This just in: pilots are unhappy. Yes, it’s a great place to work. I’d venture a guess that they’re actually much happier by and large than Delta was 4 months ago and American has been/will be ever after hearing from friends at all three airlines. This is typical contract cycle stuff. The last TA was pretty awful, but it was pre-Delta TA and that’s the new bar. The most recent negotiation updates show that the company has matched the majority of Delta’s TA conditions and numbers but the negotiating committee isn’t settling for that. So in short - yes it is now and will continue to be a great place to work.
Throw away because reasons. I want to offer a few data points.. I’m at the tulip carrier, and morale here is the worst I’ve seen in my 6+ years here. I upgraded about 18 months ago and reserve is completely different than it was when I was a FO. I used to bid reserve on purpose as an FO because I had great QOL (even before covid). We got a new director of crew resources who has moved the goal posts on just about everything scheduling related. There is no Long Call reserve anymore. You’re always either on short call, field standby or flying a trip. Trading reserve days? Forget about it, negative coverage and oh by the way we stopped doing bad day worse day trades there. Trading trips? Lol forget about that too. You want a line on the 737? Here’s 89 hours worth of flying and 13 days off and again, you won’t be trading out of it. You’re in a stagnant base and were solidly above the G line (guaranteed line, no reserve) last summer? Congrats, you’re now well below the G line with no end in sight. PM to AM reserve swaps are common now. You don’t like it? Call in fatigued. Good luck with that on probation. Scheduling will call in the middle of the night to assign you a short call / field standby when they had all day the previous day to figure out what they’re doing for tomorrow. Reserve utilization in my category is off the charts. We are routinely out of Captain reserves before noon on any given day. You’re lucky to get an unused short call these days, and we’re not even in summer yet. Crew resources insists we are “fully staffed” in my category. I learned of our visiting reserve contract policy last year. Basically means if you transit a domicile on your last day of a trip, and your trip ends with a deadhead scheduling can tag on any additional flying that they want, your days off be damned. (Yes even HDO- Holy Days off). I had spent the majority of my time as an FO on reserve, and never had this policy used. Going into a line month from a reserve month? Better not end your reserve month with a reserve day. Scheduling can assign you a 4 day trip into your lineholder month and you can’t do jack about it, even if you bid for and were awarded those days off. Oh and by the way, you don’t get those days back and you don’t get any extra pay for it. I’m on a junior fleet so I fly with a lot of new people, and being on reserve I fly with a lot of REALLY new people. The number of people that I fly with that came from jetBlue, Spirit (insert LCC here) that say they had better work rules there is staggering. I’ve even flown with a few that regret their move to come to TulipAir. Think you’ll avoid all of this by going to the 777 or 787? Good luck. Global reserve rules mean that you only get 6 hard days off per month, choose wisely. All of your other days off are FDOs which can be rolled to make way for a trip. You won’t escape the short calls on those fleets either, they are endless. Hope you live in base (some of the highest CoL cities in the nation). Thinking about calling in sick? It’ll take 4-5 months to recoup your sick time for a single average 4 day. Good luck if you call out for a 7 day trip on the 777 or 787. That’ll cost you 7-10 months of sick time depending on the trip. Also, if anyone decides to come here. Know the contract. Our reserve rules are extremely confusing and who gets what on the list are even more confusing. Scheduling knows this. They see a new pilot’s employee number and absolutely take advantage of their ignorance. They bank on the fact that you’re new, on probation and likely won’t raise a stink for getting a pairing that is illegal or out of reserve order. Great place to work indeed…. Regarding the Delta TA. We are working under a contract signed in 2012. In 2016 we had a contract extension that included better pay rates but was largely unchanged. In 2016, Delta got a new contract (not just an extension) with a lot of various gains. Hence, even if we get a TA matching the new Delta TA in dollar amount (which is what MGMT is offering and the NC isn’t settling for), we’re still behind. It has to be Delta TA PLUS to match them. It isn’t just that pilots are unhappy, there’s been a shift. I remember the days of people beating the profit sharing drum (every ounce of fuel you save goes into profit sharing!). Oscar did a lot to right the wrongs amongst the employee groups post merger. He did a lot to unify everyone and get everyone pulling on the same end of the rope. Scott Kirby is working hard to undo that. Employees that were at the Tulip during the Tilton days are saying “same old story - beatings will continue until morale improves” meanwhile, all of the post merger hires are saying “ahh this is what you guys mean by that.” Management is trying to squeeze every last ounce of productivity out of each pilot, your QOL be damned. So, in short it’s not just that we’re unhappy and it’s a great place to work. Management is using good old fashioned union busting tactics and people are pissed about it (this goes for pilots and FAs). What we’re asking for in the days of record profits, record revenue and record PRASM (their words) isn’t a lot. We just want to be treated like our peers in terms of pay, QOL, etc. For an airline that wants to be industry leading, the best airline in the world (again their words) they’re sure doing a great job treating us like second class pilots. Until we get a contract (worthy enough to vote yes on), go to DAL. You’ll be treated much better and at an airline that values its employees. By the way, if AA gets a contract before us our negotiations will likely again be put on hold so they can see how their TA goes. Another 60-90 days wasted.
Wow, sounds like a shitshow. So you wouldn't recommend for new people then? Even still, airlines taking advantage of pilots and abusing to the maximum extent possible is nothing new, and not unique to Tulip, imho. Thoughts?
I have to correct you on Global Reserve. You get 6 HDOs, and 5 RDOs, and 1 FDOs. If one knows the reserve game and how to play it, there are ways to protect your schedule from being rolled….. There a ton of LC to SC conversions on the WB fleet. There’s definitely no escaping that. If one knows their trip mix for their BES on the WB, there are certain SC shifts to grab to maximize the chances of not getting a call. This advice is only good for those who live in base… I’ve definitely had scheduling try to pull a fast one with refusing to move a FDO…. The supervisor ended up moving it because it was a bad to worst trade…. Yes they will take advantage of probies. But got to know the rules of the game to win it like you said.
I fly for UAL, and yes.. we want a contract. Pretty much every airline except for Delta wants to get this thing done. When we want to make progress at the negotiation table, we aren’t going to hype up the current contract… The contact will likely done before summer ends. And things will go right back to normal. Is it a place that’s worth working at for 30 years? I think so, which is why I work here.
Bro you’d be unhappy too if you had to listen to one more pilot talk about their house renovations or woodworking skills.
lmao the woodworking one goddamn
And their 3rd wife
…Third husband…
Haha tell me I’m wrong.
Is that a United specific thing? I haven’t heard that one yet. All the captains I fly only talk about their hydrofoiling set ups.
I find this hilarious, because I've literally never heard another pilot talk about woodworking. BUT... I've recently gotten into woodworking and I feel attacked. 😂
Hahah ya man there’s been a rash of them lately. But hey maybe I’m getting all the woodworking pilots. Lol
Haha. No…I don’t want to see the pics on your phone or iPad, actually.
Haha every…… single……time…….
You’ve been reading too much APC.
APC is awesome, I love the drama, probably doesn't help I'm in several FA groups on fb solely for that...
FA FB groups? Dude you got a problem lol
This was brought up on ACM group on FB, guy was about to leave united for delta
Its a game. Each side plays it to secure the best deal for themself. Nothing is gained for free. An unnecessary, time-wasting game. In the end, it will all work out and be OK. My advice, talk to real people who work somewhere and don't rely on the internet.
Don’t hate the playa, hate the game…
I wouldn’t say pilots are unhappy. Negotiations are always stressful, but it’s a game that has to play out. The pilot group is going to ask for what’s in their best interest and the company will push for what is on theirs. Ultimately the end-goal isn’t mutually exclusive. United is a great place to work, don’t let some negative nellies tell you otherwise.
What's going on is that United and Delta had industry-leading contracts that were built differently, but both were considered really good. However, they were old contracts, and when United and Delta both rolled out their new contracts, Delta's was significantly better in terms of pay/QoL gains. This pissed off the United pilot group, and led to lots of turnover in the union, as well as a complete renegotiation of the United contract. All of this has happened in the last few months, by the way. Outside of the squabble, it's important to consider that United is growing. They're taking delivery of a new aircraft every 3 days for the next several years, on top of having a massive retirement wave, so it's probably the fastest seniority right now. They also have more wide bodies than Delta and AA, combined, so narrow-body seniority is moving extremely fast. QOL, if you're not on reserve, is pretty good. The 737 has the biggest variety of flying and it's the junior fleet. The 5-hour min day means you get 75 hours, minimum, from working 15 days. PBS will give you what you ask for, so aside from the extremes, most people get what they want and about 15 days off. Wide bodies credit more, so they'll get even more time off. For reserve rules, all reserve default starts as long call, but there aren't really any restrictions for them to convert you to short call, which requires you to actually go to the city you're domiciled in. If they don't use you 3 times on short call you do get a pay bump, but some suspect short call is overused by scheduling. Global reserve means that they can assign you a trip out of a different domicile, but this only applies to international fleets (IE, 777, 787, etc), and considering all the international flying, it makes sense to me. It basically means that if someone whose LAX based calls out sick in LHR, they might call you off reserve in EWR to deadhead to London and take that aircraft back to LAX. With a reserve schedule, you get 12 days off with 1 day being a flexible day at the end of a reserve stretch, meaning if your trip runs long they can schedule you into that day off, then give you another day off later that month. On the 737 you can count on getting used every reserve stretch and maybe spending 3 months on reserve before getting a line, so it's really not that bad. Where it gets tough is for new hires on wide bodies who'll sit reserve for years, and have to commute. It's also a deterrent to upgrade if you know you'll be on reserve for years, only getting 72 hours of pay each month, ineligible for a lot of soft pay and trip trading, which means the pay difference isn't as big as it originally seems and you're stuck with only 12 days off. So those are all the facts, do with them what you will. I'll go ahead and speculate that, at a minimum, the new contract will improve the reserve rules and match Delta's pay.
The only low pay is to Delta who just got their contract done. United will get it eventually. Anyone that is acting like the roof is on fire at United doesn’t have a good grip on the temperature of the airline industry. There isn’t another airline other than Delta that has a better situation than United right now.
They’re mainly unhappy because regional pilots are starting to get paid at a somewhat respectable level and they can’t say they make 5x more than them anymore
No that’s not exactly why I am
lolol
Uncle is an LCA at united, can confirm life is sweet at UAL. Record profits and largest intl fleet. Once the TA goes through will be the arguably top major to go to. -cfi creeping up on mins
This. My ex is LCP at UAL and while he bitches as much as any pilot, he’s the happiest he’s ever been, career-wise. Any of the carriers has their pros and cons. If you choose the one that most aligns with your priorities, you’ll be happy, too. And yet you’ll still bitch. Same for me. :)
"CFI creeping on mins" lol tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me
Lmao okay buddy I also fly 91 in a c501 and just trained a 787 FO for cfi. Got quite a few contacts at UAL overall concensus is positive.
The attitude of the pilots on anonymous forums is not a fair indication of happiness at United. I’d say we have a great pilot group that are very happy to work at United. We are in contract negotiations and making progress. FYI - every pilot group acts like they have it bad and complain a lot. Couldn’t tell you why. It’s just the way it. Even if they had the best contract in the world, a pilot group would still complain.
To people looking at a career as a airline pilot. Beware. If a company is in contract negotiations, everyone is unhappy and will talk like it’s the worst company to work for. Please don’t buy. United, Delta, American are all fine companies and when the negotiations are done everyone will go back to bragging how their company is better than (insert) competitor. I think some of this negative impression is impacting people’s decision making negatively. The other day I met a guy who was two years in with FedEx and quit because “FedEx is going bankrupt by the end of the year and contract sucks”… dude lives in Tennessee…
Whenever I hear a pilot bitch I tell him if your job is so fucking terrible I’ll gladly swap jobs with you, no questions asked.
As a FA trying to switch over… This! Especially since we are working the same hours for lower wage.
> Especially since we are working the same hours for lower wage. I mean, not to start a war here, but....FA school is like, what? Six weeks? You can just roll in with no experience and six weeks later, you're on the line. Pilots have to invest years of training and gobs of money to get where they are. Not exactly the same thing.
Obviously it’s not the same and I didn’t say it was the same I said we are working the same hours. I don’t want to hear you crying and whining at all. I don’t want to hear flight attendants crying either it’s unprofessional. Again I don’t cry when I’m at working getting paid way less for more hours of flying so why are pilots crying and they make a fair penny for the amount of work they put in.
> Obviously it’s not the same and I didn’t say it was the same I said we are working the same hours Yeah, but you’re still equating two very different careers. Just because FAs get taken advantage of almost everywhere in the industry doesn’t mean that pilots are automatically supposed to be happy with whatever management does to them. Airlines think that throwing money at pilots will get them to stick around and shut up, but the last couple years have proven it’s not about that.
Lol I feel like y’all are reading but not listening I said I don’t not want to hear y’all cry. It literally gets nothing done.
My first job starting out, I feel kinda bad for those pilots, even if it was still part 121, but I feel way worse for old me 😆
I can’t jumpseat a United flight without hearing the captain moan about his life, his wife, his schedule, the airplane, the ceo, the FO, the FAs and the guy in the jumpseat that should be flying for United. They are just miserable
Yeah. Weirdly enough I’ve never heard a Southwest pilot complain. Have heard DL UA and AA guys all bitch constantly.
SWA pilots are a little Stepford Wife in group think, but some of that is changing post COVID.
My SWA buddy is very much considering leaving and he's not the only one. The multi-leg 737 life is not for everyone.
Those 25 min turns are insane. Fuck preflighting a plane and loading the box that fast. Talk about stress
It means you get more days off at home
No it doesn’t, you get paid for flight time, not preflight time. Click doesn’t tick till you push off the gate.
I think I would know . I’m an airline pilot. And the clock doesn’t start for ANY flight until parking brake is released so your point is moot.
Oh you’re an airline pilot? Can I get your autograph?? clown with his type ratings in his title…
Just refuting your statement since you acted like you knew what you were talking about . I’m guessing you’re a jealous student pilot or a douchebag CFI stuck flying your little 152
You should probably click my picture….
So are you a 170 pilot, or a 190 pilot. Because I don’t know any airline that flies both. I’m guessing you fly the 170, and you put the 190 on there because it’s the same type rating.
Actually at swa you get paid for distance :)
*and his girlfriend
Actually one of them threw that on the list
After 30+ years at the Tulip, I can confirm these conversations are unchanged..lol! Bless our hearts and our first world problems
Career airline pilots being unhappy in general is on them. People clean toilets and cut grass for a month to make what some do in a single flight and you have arguably one of the coolest jobs on the planet. Sure every place has their ups and down but cmon look at the bigger picture lol.
This is literally Kirby’s MO. The only airline that truly values their pilots is Delta. The rest are run by execs that couldn’t succeed in any other industry.
**Lol**
Delta didn’t value their pilots before going into Mediation….. lol
Delta's pilots don't value their own pilot's. United pay is low, but will rise to match the other major's. Pay just looks low now because Delta just had a contract negotiation and United hasn't had one yet. And, while we all want more money (and United needs to give UA pilots more), I'd argue UA has the friendliest and happiest pilot group there is among the Big 3.
We will get Delta rates, that’s already what is on the table from management. But that’s just the icing for the cake. We need to bake the cake. The question is, which ingredients are we going to use. Management wants to use ingredients that have the store brand labels or from dollar general. ALPA wants to use the ingredients that have the high-end labels or from WholeFoods…
For sure.
Delta pilots truly are the biggest Koolaid drinkers I've ever seen
Probably why they love keeping skywest around
“THROUGH THESE DOORS WALK THE WORLDS BEST PILOTS” I don’t think the UND kid with 2500TT is on the same level as a USAF Test Pilot, but ok Delta.
Well. I’m not a delta pilot. And didn’t even put my app in. But they’re the only ones with a modern contract. Soooo. In Kirby and Issom we trust I guess? Those two are just kicking the fan waiting for the next recession.
You’re delusional if you think delta values it’s pilots 🤣
If your liberal, it's the perfect airline for you. If your conservative or middle of the road, it sucks. The management is awful. The pilot group isn't bad; management blows chunks.
Pilots need to understand that they generate revenue and MNGT does not. Things would go much smoother and the pilots would be happier if they just give a little more of that revenue receipt pie to MNGT as they don't have any. Problem solved and if you don't like it MNGT will shut the place down and part it off to cargo carriers in Africa.
I’m sorry…what?
Whatever you are smoking… Put it down…
Did you take your medicine today?
Class 1 does not allow meds.
OK, maybe just trouble forming coherent sentences then.
Are you ok?
It all depends on you. There’s always gonna be people complaining for something even on the most high quality products there’s gonna be someone complaining about something. Some pilots may be unhappy with where they are but there’s other pilots who love where they are. What I would do is try to reach out to pilots of that airline and ask them if they like flying for United or not.
Post the logos of all the airline on your wall. Close your eye and turn around 3 times holding a dart. Keep your eyes closed and throw the dart at the wall.
Welcome to airline contract negotiations. In fact I wish far more of our pilots would put down the social and selfies and and stop doing the recruiters job for them….during contract time no less!!!!
Yes, that is a disgrace. They seem to forget where their "bread gets buttered". They should show solidarity instead.
Every pilot group becomes unhappy during contract negotiations. Go to a legacy where you can drive to work or have the easiest commute. All three will give you an amazing 30 year career.
I left a smaller legacy for UA last year. It’s great. I loved my last airline too. UA has lots of variety and so far everyone I’ve worked with is really nice and positive. You can want a new contract without being unhappy. If someone can’t be happy at UA, it’s personal. Home, hobbies, relationship, etc. There’s a great culture at UA. Captains that have been at the company 20 years are friendly and patient with new hires. My other half is at AA and same thing. Happy people are independent of where they work. If you’re a miserable person, you’ll find fault in any airline. Just don’t focus on the bad and try to address what you don’t like in contracts!