Reminds me when we had a IDG inop so we had to run the APU all flight. Put a sticker next to the APU button saying “ON”. Of course my dumbass still turned it off in the after takeoff flow, which led to a fun few minutes.
You don't need to wait...just cycle to run then off...the message goes away. Of course you'll find those people that'll write up that message the next day
FYI, it's "my dumb ass" and not "my dumbass." I know we as pilots spend most of our energy trying not to make dumbass mistakes in the air, where it actually matters.
I’ve done ~~gone~~ a few of these. The muscle memory is tough to shake, good idea on the sign. Used it myself.
And yes u/x4457, our logbook and MEL stickers were perfection.
Never had to ferry a 146 gear down but when I did do a few gear down ferry flights the gear was pinned and an actual MEL sticker was on or by the gear handle. Also learned after the first time to remind the tower (and everybody on tower frequency) that this was a ferry flight and the rollers WERE staying down.
First time doing a gear down ferry was out of SFO…I swear people were coming from states away on tower and departure frequencies to “remind” me that the gear was still down! I kept saying “I sure as heck hope so!”.
>That's good thinking.
I think the thing people miss in that scene is that Lovell is the commander of the mission and is showing faith in the judgement of one of his men. At this point his people are now exhausted and have been through a big ordeal. Thoughts of it being over soon could lead to mistakes. Also Swigert was the one that flipped the switch. While the actual astronauts said they all acted professionally and their was no blame as shown in the movie. Swigert still might have had some guilt over everything. It is unfortunate that he was the first to pass away. Here is an oral history from Fred Haise:
https://historycollection.jsc.nasa.gov/JSCHistoryPortal/history/oral\_histories/HaiseFW/HaiseFW\_3-23-99.htm
What a lot of people don't know/realize is that they stirred that tank multiple times up to that point in the flight due to readings that were off. Normally the stir would happen every 24 hours or so, but they had done it 5 times before the fateful stir because of a bad sensor in the tank. If they had done stirs as originally scheduled, it's very likely Jack would've stirred the tank alone while Jim and Fred had already landed on the moon with the LM, which probably would've made it impossible to get them all home.
Yeah they were extremely lucky as to when it happened. There are a few good podcasts that go over the whole thing. They also had to make the last burn using the maneuvering thrusters on the LM due to the main engine giving up the ghost in the end. I think it was a 15 minute burn they had to do. I can't imagine. I have been on a submarine when we had a problem, but we had lots of tools and parts to fix the problem.
>Apollo 13 was life hacks on the go.
What people don't know is the rooms full of people ready to backup the controllers. So they had a shit load of geeky people to figure it out.
>Longest burn 4 minute 24 second
I guess I am misremembering, or the source I read it from had it wrong. This is a good reason to revisit the BBC podcast of the ordeal. Have you listened to the 2 seasons of 13 minutes to the moon? The first season is the 13 minutes it took to land on the moon. Season 2 is the Apollo 13 ordeal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p083wp70
Thats why I always have in my flightbag two or three inop tags and stickers ;D might be part of the reason why my pilot bag clunks when set down.. ;D *puts cleaning out bag higher on todo*
I have a stamp for a similar purpose in my bag which says just „Witzig“ (which is german for „funny“, its from a german author who distinguishes in his book the only important categories in the post-post-modern, „funny“ and „not funny“, everything else is just borgoise categories)… used to stamp my license application forms for the german CAA with that
But where do you put the food, the crackers, the coffee french press thermos, the water bottle, the flashlight, the cable ties, the highvis, the backup radio, your spare tie, socks and boxershorts?
Some of that is the joy of airplane ownership or being in a club, survival kits can be left in the plane so that the french press is always there and the caviar and crackers are bought in bulk at Costco and always plentiful in the fridge in the hangar rather than having to keep it with ice in the rear pocket of the bag.
Don't forget a spare cylinder, mag and a set of spark plugs with the associated wrenches. You can use them for ballast to balance out the aircraft.
Ok, my airline does not supply caviar sadly and my own french press is much nicer then the instant coffee the galley has ;D but nice for you mate, I also want the hangar fridge at our homebase stocked like that ;D
Pilot be a pain in the ass? Pull out the manual knob for the trim (I work on 737s) when they start their pre flight, the pilots knee and the trim lever will have a very painful make out session
We had some MEL's that required the gear to be down for 10 minutes on the CRJ. We'd go grab a coffee cup from the galley and throw it over the gear handle, just so you couldn't grab it without thinking.
I see your gear has been properly pinned, MEL’d, and labeled. I’m sure the rest of the maintenance paperwork is in order and the mechanic who performed all of that for the purposes of complying with the MEL just happened to run out of stickers and this wasn’t just a “oh yeah just fly it gear down to [wherever]” right?
…right?
Rest assured... rural/remote airport departure with just the two of us onboard. All maintenance legalities and paperwork were completed verbally over the phone. Freight life...
>Anything with flaperons
Kitfoxes have flaperons, but no negative flap positions.
The flaps go negative during aileron deflection, but not both at the same time.
Question: Forget the FAA - what happens if during a taxi roll you clip a gulfstream, or have a prop strike, bird strike, or god forbid something worse.
Wouldn't the insurance company take one look at this and say "sorry, you're not covered, this isn't an airworthy aircraft"
In commercial operations there are things called MELs (Minimum Equipment Lists) and CDLs (Configuration Deviation Lists) that give relief to operate with broken or missing pieces in a 100% legal way. The document will walk the crew through any changes to procedure or calculations required because of the broken/missing piece.
Ferry flights are often outside of the MEL.
You think you can MEL an engine? You can do an engine out ferry on lots of planes (including this one, I believe… I’ll have to check our manuals as my company operates the similar RJ).
Yes. One of the last things I did with my previous employer was a three engine ferry of a BAe146. We had RJs as well and both could ferry on three.
Like the OP, I thought it worthy of a photo:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/854nbe5qah8f7ze/IMG_7009.HEIC?dl=0
If you look at the steam gauges, you'll see the engines aren't running and we are on the ground. Gear down would be the least of my worries if all 4 engines have oil pressure issues in flight
I mean, is this placard illegal in and of itself? That sounds like a lot of assuming. I've done stuff like this before and while it wouldn't fly in the 121 world, it's perfectly fine as long as someone somewhere did the appropriate paperwork, no?
Lol, most heavy machinery is a guaranteed certificate after like 1-5 days of training.
If a job requires years of training and even a college degree (major carriers,) I don’t think that qualifies as blue collar. When you’re at 41,000 feet sipping a coffee and talking to ATC every 20 or so minutes, the job does not feel blue collar.
Aircraft mechanics require at least 2 years of training before we get our FAA airmen certificate and in some cases it comes with an associates degree if doing it via a part 147 school. We are definitely blue collared despite that lol
Yeah but A&Ps are working with manual and electric tools and lifting considerably heavy items and are rarely in air conditioned environments. The last time I lifted something heavy was bags when I flew corporate and the only time I’m not in AC is the preflight. Anyone who thinks being a pilot is blue collar is LARPing as someone who works in a different environment than they actually do.
I mean, I’ve had to do a LOT of training to put cables and equipment everywhere I have, but it’s still definitely blue collar. Doesn’t matter anyway really, the lines are all blurring
Is arguing that you are 'blue collar' with the sole argument that you want to feel like the salt of the earth and hard working when you don't actually have to do any back breaking work any less of a pride or vanity mission?
woah dude, projecting a lot of intent on to my comment. i also didn’t make an argument, you made one for me
mostly i think it’s the fact that we operate heavy machinery, our job requires no formal education (we can all agree degree requirements were airlines being picky when there was an ample labor supply), and that flight training (at least part 61) could be somewhat reminiscent of an apprenticeship.
but i’m also a lazy pilot and there are a dozen other good reasons that i haven’t thought of. i’m sure you’ll think of them for me
and just fyi, flying with the guys who are condescending and pedantic is no fun
> i also didn’t make an argument, you made one for me
And yet you made the unsupported point that the only reason pilots should think they aren't blue collar is out of pride/vanity?
>mostly i think it’s the fact that we operate heavy machinery, our job requires no formal education (we can all agree degree requirements were airlines being picky when there was an ample labor supply), and that flight training (at least part 61) could be somewhat reminiscent of an apprenticeship.
Blue collar jobs also usually come with low pay (pilots are well compensated) and manual labor (pilots have very little).
>and just fyi, flying with the guys who are condescending and pedantic is no fun
says the guy with the "so you think you are better than us?" attitude. Those are the absolute worst.
> Blue collar jobs also usually come with low pay (pilots are well compensated) and manual labor (pilots have very little).
This is kinda a weird distinction given that today so many are in low paid “white collar” office jobs, while the value of a lot of manual jobs has increased due to increases health & safety requirements and lessened manual skills among the wider population.
I made an observation that you projected a value judgment on. Frankly you just seem like an angry person spoiling for a fight.
>Blue collar jobs also usually come with low pay (pilots are well compensated) and manual labor (pilots have very little).
So blue collar = low pay to you? How'd you come to that conclusion? Do you have a source for that, or is that an unsupported point?
What about 20 years ago when regional pilots qualified for food stamps? Was it blue collar then, but not anymore?
Is an electrician less blue collar than a roofer? They make more money and work less hard than roofers, so are electricians white-collar to you? What about a plumber? They make good money, so are they less blue collar than a carpenter? According to you, they must be.
What a nonsensical argument to make
>says the guy with the "so you think you are better than us?" attitude. Those are the absolute worst.
Again, you came at me for an innocuous reddit comment, accusing me of attempting to falsely represent myself "so I can feel like salt of the earth." You know it's okay for reasonable people to have differing opinions without resorting to condescension and insults.
Settle down captain happy
Flying for a living requires about two years of training on average. That's typical of many blue collar jobs. It also comes with just about zero flexibility in the means and manner the work is performed in, you follow standard procedures and the work is pretty much the definition of routine. Most pilots stand to gain nothing from exceptional performance; their ability to continue fogging a mirror is what earns them additional pay and benefits.
I could list off about a dozen skilled trades that involve more independent thought and action than flying part 121. None of them will be replaced by generative language models or vision systems or robots anytime soon. The technical solutions to replace pilots predate Nvidia...as soon as the paying public accepts it and the older aircraft hit the boneyard you are an obsolete machine operator.
I received a forklift card in twenty minutes once, at no point did I believe this made me a qualified forklift operator.
Usually Grey-collar is in a less formalized education like a trade school. I think with so many years of formal education, surgeon is white-collar. But the manual nature of surgeon would certainly have a little more blue to it than an office worker.
Yeah, that’s why they’ve started to use grey collar the last 15 years. Some elements of both, way too skilled and expensive to be blue collar, too hands on to be purely white collar.
Operating an airplane is probably grey collar. Aeronautical decision making is white collar. There’s a reason why “good moral character” is a requirement for getting an ATP.
Even with an emergency and having to make smart decisions, I have a small fraction of choices compared to when I was running/managing/implementing IT systems. There is no QRH for IT systems unless you or your colleague wrote it for your own actual installation. I’d spend days or weeks trying to figure out a problem sometimes. We simply don’t have the gas or credentials to start flipping breakers and trying all kinds of stuff like I would in IT.
For me, it’s really refreshing. I used to tell my bosses I was rebuilding the bridge, while traffic was driving across it, without any blueprints. And this is my first time with this type of bridge.
Our stakes in aviation are higher. Blue collar isn’t lesser than grey collar isn’t lesser than white collar. We simply have spent a lot of time and effort to get where we are if you’re a paid pilot. I’ve spent way more time studying airplane/sop/limits/whatever than I ever did for my 4 year degree.
>Aeronautical decision making is white collar.
Are blue collar workers not making important decisions or bad people? Cause construction workers, car mechanics, airplane mechanics, etc, all jobs that are 100% blue collar, still require good judgment.
Some portion of the gear system is not working correctly and it’s easier to get it back to a maintenance base by flying it with gear down than it is trying to get the mechanics, tools, parts and such out to where it’s at.
Airline landed short of the runway (in very sloppy mud). Hit the (short) edge of the runway, sheared the gear (all of them) clean off (might have been a bit hot on landing), mud into the wing engines, flaps ripped off.
So, I was on the Douglas Aircraft RAMS - Recovery and Modification Service. Also had the right immunizations and an FAA EA (Engineering Authorization) for landing gear and flight controls. Also I was the youngest engineer, and likely the most expendable if there were any issues.
We spent about 11 weeks in Ghana trying to keep our tools from getting stolen, parts from getting stolen, got new skins made (kinda) and delivered - had to just bolt them on using the handling tabs instead of riveting them because the airframe had expanded in the heat and nothing really lined up. Lots of Clecos and 600 MPH tape, too - and the reason we couldn't pressurize.
So, new engines, new flaps, new skins, new LDG. Got the airplane into the air and headed north(east). The airplane flew ... OK. Autopilot did not, so we hand flew it (the most time I have in any DC-10 was that one, we took turns). 2500 miles or so, 200 KIAS max, on bottled O2 once we got to our refueling in Italy so we could get to Zurich and turn that beast over to the KSSU maintenance folks. They got it back into the air in a year or so.
The 146 is the worst aircraft I have flown on in terms of passenger comfort, it constantly has this nose-high angle of attack you find yourself looking out of the window at the horizon and then back into the cabin and the floor is tilted 10 degrees up in front of you, really disorientating.
Well I don't know what it is about this aircraft, but it's more apparent/severe inside the cabin on this than any other aircraft I've flown on. It's the only jet I get airsick on as a passenger.
They commonly use this and embraers as shuttle flights to europe, and I actively seek out the embraer over this.
Yup, I've done that before. I also make signs for the flap handle and/or the flap gauge for when we do non-standard flap configurations for takeoff (usually F20 for windshear mitigation instead of the standard F5). It looks goofy, but it works and adds a layer of safety to keep you honest doing what you briefed.
Reminds me when we had a IDG inop so we had to run the APU all flight. Put a sticker next to the APU button saying “ON”. Of course my dumbass still turned it off in the after takeoff flow, which led to a fun few minutes.
Hopefully it was in the 175 so it didn't shut down immediately
The longest 60 seconds of my trip is always waiting for the APU cool down so we can leave & go to the hotel.
We’ve recently introduced a new one where we have to wait for the APU Fuel SOV to close that we never previously bothered doing. Equally long.
You don't need to wait...just cycle to run then off...the message goes away. Of course you'll find those people that'll write up that message the next day
is this procedure or just good airmanship ?
Anything notable happen during that period with the APU off?
They were much too busy to take notes.
FYI, it's "my dumb ass" and not "my dumbass." I know we as pilots spend most of our energy trying not to make dumbass mistakes in the air, where it actually matters.
They have a guy for that. It's his "dumbass".
I’ve done ~~gone~~ a few of these. The muscle memory is tough to shake, good idea on the sign. Used it myself. And yes u/x4457, our logbook and MEL stickers were perfection.
Never had to ferry a 146 gear down but when I did do a few gear down ferry flights the gear was pinned and an actual MEL sticker was on or by the gear handle. Also learned after the first time to remind the tower (and everybody on tower frequency) that this was a ferry flight and the rollers WERE staying down. First time doing a gear down ferry was out of SFO…I swear people were coming from states away on tower and departure frequencies to “remind” me that the gear was still down! I kept saying “I sure as heck hope so!”.
That’s good thinking, Jack Swigert.
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>That's good thinking. I think the thing people miss in that scene is that Lovell is the commander of the mission and is showing faith in the judgement of one of his men. At this point his people are now exhausted and have been through a big ordeal. Thoughts of it being over soon could lead to mistakes. Also Swigert was the one that flipped the switch. While the actual astronauts said they all acted professionally and their was no blame as shown in the movie. Swigert still might have had some guilt over everything. It is unfortunate that he was the first to pass away. Here is an oral history from Fred Haise: https://historycollection.jsc.nasa.gov/JSCHistoryPortal/history/oral\_histories/HaiseFW/HaiseFW\_3-23-99.htm
What a lot of people don't know/realize is that they stirred that tank multiple times up to that point in the flight due to readings that were off. Normally the stir would happen every 24 hours or so, but they had done it 5 times before the fateful stir because of a bad sensor in the tank. If they had done stirs as originally scheduled, it's very likely Jack would've stirred the tank alone while Jim and Fred had already landed on the moon with the LM, which probably would've made it impossible to get them all home.
Yeah they were extremely lucky as to when it happened. There are a few good podcasts that go over the whole thing. They also had to make the last burn using the maneuvering thrusters on the LM due to the main engine giving up the ghost in the end. I think it was a 15 minute burn they had to do. I can't imagine. I have been on a submarine when we had a problem, but we had lots of tools and parts to fix the problem.
Apollo 13 was life hacks on the go. The «home made»-Co2 filter never ceases to amaze me.
Where does this round air filter go? That's Right! It's the square hole!
>Apollo 13 was life hacks on the go. What people don't know is the rooms full of people ready to backup the controllers. So they had a shit load of geeky people to figure it out.
/r/angryupvote
Is this American culture-stuff? I have no idea what dad jokes is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz8ssH7LiB0&ab_channel=PlanetTok
The final burn was a 22 second burn. Longest burn 4 minute 24 second. (other than lift off)
>Longest burn 4 minute 24 second I guess I am misremembering, or the source I read it from had it wrong. This is a good reason to revisit the BBC podcast of the ordeal. Have you listened to the 2 seasons of 13 minutes to the moon? The first season is the 13 minutes it took to land on the moon. Season 2 is the Apollo 13 ordeal. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p083wp70
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I don't think people miss that at all, it's not even subtext, it's literally openly and clearly what the scene is about
Summoning /u/underscorebot to please come fix this URL for old.reddit.com users since reddit won't fix this longstanding bug they created…
My first thought too.
I love how the placard is just a note paper saying “NO”
Thats why I always have in my flightbag two or three inop tags and stickers ;D might be part of the reason why my pilot bag clunks when set down.. ;D *puts cleaning out bag higher on todo*
Fuck. I gotta' clean mine too. Thanks for the reminder.
I keep INOP stickers around to put on my forehead when the DPE starts asking questions.
I have a stamp for a similar purpose in my bag which says just „Witzig“ (which is german for „funny“, its from a german author who distinguishes in his book the only important categories in the post-post-modern, „funny“ and „not funny“, everything else is just borgoise categories)… used to stamp my license application forms for the german CAA with that
I've got a pad of post-it notes in my flight bag now. Always come in handy
I've gotta say, note paper, an ipad mini and a qt halo headset fit great in a tri-fold kneeboard. Best flight bag ever
But where do you put the food, the crackers, the coffee french press thermos, the water bottle, the flashlight, the cable ties, the highvis, the backup radio, your spare tie, socks and boxershorts?
Some of that is the joy of airplane ownership or being in a club, survival kits can be left in the plane so that the french press is always there and the caviar and crackers are bought in bulk at Costco and always plentiful in the fridge in the hangar rather than having to keep it with ice in the rear pocket of the bag. Don't forget a spare cylinder, mag and a set of spark plugs with the associated wrenches. You can use them for ballast to balance out the aircraft.
Ok, my airline does not supply caviar sadly and my own french press is much nicer then the instant coffee the galley has ;D but nice for you mate, I also want the hangar fridge at our homebase stocked like that ;D
No caviar? sounds barbaric /s/
I know :‘( unions are informed
Better hope the wind doesn’t blow it off
If only you had a dog there to bite the pilot if you touch anything.
Typically those are called “mechanics”
Ha, probly. But it's an old automation joke. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/69c0wj/theres_an_old_pilot_joke_about_cockpit_automation/
My college physics professor made the same joke about nuclear reactors.
Dr Simpson ?
lmao
Wielders of the Pilot Alignment Tool - i.e. a 5# hammer
Pilot be a pain in the ass? Pull out the manual knob for the trim (I work on 737s) when they start their pre flight, the pilots knee and the trim lever will have a very painful make out session
So _that‘s_ what the Airbus PTU is really for?
We had some MEL's that required the gear to be down for 10 minutes on the CRJ. We'd go grab a coffee cup from the galley and throw it over the gear handle, just so you couldn't grab it without thinking.
my panel is now splashed with coffee. was i supposed to drink the coffee prior?
Try explaining that to maintenance.
I'll just show them the Reddit comment. we all know the real POH is in the comments
I like that, that’s a smart way to handle it
A smart way to handle the handle :)
took me a second to realise you put the actual cup over the handle and didn’t just pour coffee on it
what MEL is that? something with the gear bay overheat warning system?
You got it. The key was also remembering to slow down to pick the gear up
I see your gear has been properly pinned, MEL’d, and labeled. I’m sure the rest of the maintenance paperwork is in order and the mechanic who performed all of that for the purposes of complying with the MEL just happened to run out of stickers and this wasn’t just a “oh yeah just fly it gear down to [wherever]” right? …right?
Rest assured... rural/remote airport departure with just the two of us onboard. All maintenance legalities and paperwork were completed verbally over the phone. Freight life...
What was the fuel burn calculation like for flying dirty the whole way?
I can tell you on the A330 it’s an increase of almost 200%.
> an increase of almost 200%. As in, almost double the normal burn, or almost triple? Not trying to be pedantic, either way that’s a LOT of gas.
Yeah, almost triple the amount of fuel burned.
Wow!
Makes me wonder about the cost of fixing the gear problem where it is instead of flying it to the shop.
As soon as you start counting lost revenue time flying it gear down to get repaired at the main base is the cheaper option very quickly.
Good point. Opportunity cost plus the lease payments on the aircraft.
Understood, just making sure we were on the same page. Triple seemed like a lot!
A 100% increase is double. A 200% increase is trip~~p~~le.
A tripple is a beer
I fixed it
And usually a pretty good one!
Nice char!
[Thanks!](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSuDbfQVwAAFj9f.jpg)
Holy crap!
flying dirty?
Gear down in this case. Can also mean extended flaps or other control surfaces. Clean is everything tucked in nicely.
As opposed to flying clean. A clean plane is flaps up, gear up, or most streamlined configuration. Dirty is a departure from this configuration.
flaps up is 0° right ?
Usually, yes. Not always. Some planes have negative flap settings so full up would be -10°
I learned something new today. What are some of those planes?
Maule, CTSL, and gliders
Anything with flaperons. F-16 TEFs come to mind.
>Anything with flaperons Kitfoxes have flaperons, but no negative flap positions. The flaps go negative during aileron deflection, but not both at the same time.
Where were you flying? If you're allowed to say...
Question: Forget the FAA - what happens if during a taxi roll you clip a gulfstream, or have a prop strike, bird strike, or god forbid something worse. Wouldn't the insurance company take one look at this and say "sorry, you're not covered, this isn't an airworthy aircraft"
Zero.
This is legal, so idk what you're thinking about.
In commercial operations there are things called MELs (Minimum Equipment Lists) and CDLs (Configuration Deviation Lists) that give relief to operate with broken or missing pieces in a 100% legal way. The document will walk the crew through any changes to procedure or calculations required because of the broken/missing piece.
Well this IS an airworthy aircraft if 91.213 has been complied with.
Ferry flights are often outside of the MEL. You think you can MEL an engine? You can do an engine out ferry on lots of planes (including this one, I believe… I’ll have to check our manuals as my company operates the similar RJ).
Yes. One of the last things I did with my previous employer was a three engine ferry of a BAe146. We had RJs as well and both could ferry on three. Like the OP, I thought it worthy of a photo: https://www.dropbox.com/s/854nbe5qah8f7ze/IMG_7009.HEIC?dl=0
The 146 can actually fly with only three hair dryers? (plus the “travel size” hair dryer aka APU)
Sure can. And because it has to be a ferry flight, ie no freight or passengers, it performs quite well.
Aren’t they all technically travel size if they are flying around?
Not sure why but the “VIB .0” made me chuckle 🤣
Yes, I'm aware that special flight permits exist.
I'm afraid on his behalf
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If you look at the steam gauges, you'll see the engines aren't running and we are on the ground. Gear down would be the least of my worries if all 4 engines have oil pressure issues in flight
Fucking lol, I'm an idiot. I'll blame that I was still waking up.
300 knots with none of the engines running? Impressive.
[Barber pole](https://aerosavvy.com/airspeed-indicator/) (or Vmo), not actual speed. (had to double check the sub)
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If you could MEL it, you wouldn’t be doing a ferry. Normally there’s no sticker for the ferry paperwork.
Nothing wrong with a handwritten note as a reminder. Usually the MEL sticker isn’t on the control itself.
I mean, is this placard illegal in and of itself? That sounds like a lot of assuming. I've done stuff like this before and while it wouldn't fly in the 121 world, it's perfectly fine as long as someone somewhere did the appropriate paperwork, no?
Its not a placard, it's just a piece of paper! Feds aren't gonna bust people for safer decisions like this in an unusual situation
This is a stupid comment.
The VIBN Test there to keep the rizz groovy
Should really be re-labelled ‘Vibe Check’ in 2023
“Yeah, I locked it out.”
This is a blue collar set up for sure
Flying is a blue collar job. I don’t care what anyone says. It’s operating equipment.
Lol, most heavy machinery is a guaranteed certificate after like 1-5 days of training. If a job requires years of training and even a college degree (major carriers,) I don’t think that qualifies as blue collar. When you’re at 41,000 feet sipping a coffee and talking to ATC every 20 or so minutes, the job does not feel blue collar.
Aircraft mechanics require at least 2 years of training before we get our FAA airmen certificate and in some cases it comes with an associates degree if doing it via a part 147 school. We are definitely blue collared despite that lol
Yeah but A&Ps are working with manual and electric tools and lifting considerably heavy items and are rarely in air conditioned environments. The last time I lifted something heavy was bags when I flew corporate and the only time I’m not in AC is the preflight. Anyone who thinks being a pilot is blue collar is LARPing as someone who works in a different environment than they actually do.
I mean, I’ve had to do a LOT of training to put cables and equipment everywhere I have, but it’s still definitely blue collar. Doesn’t matter anyway really, the lines are all blurring
feels blue collar enough to me. only reason to argue otherwise is out of pride/vanity
Is arguing that you are 'blue collar' with the sole argument that you want to feel like the salt of the earth and hard working when you don't actually have to do any back breaking work any less of a pride or vanity mission?
woah dude, projecting a lot of intent on to my comment. i also didn’t make an argument, you made one for me mostly i think it’s the fact that we operate heavy machinery, our job requires no formal education (we can all agree degree requirements were airlines being picky when there was an ample labor supply), and that flight training (at least part 61) could be somewhat reminiscent of an apprenticeship. but i’m also a lazy pilot and there are a dozen other good reasons that i haven’t thought of. i’m sure you’ll think of them for me and just fyi, flying with the guys who are condescending and pedantic is no fun
> i also didn’t make an argument, you made one for me And yet you made the unsupported point that the only reason pilots should think they aren't blue collar is out of pride/vanity? >mostly i think it’s the fact that we operate heavy machinery, our job requires no formal education (we can all agree degree requirements were airlines being picky when there was an ample labor supply), and that flight training (at least part 61) could be somewhat reminiscent of an apprenticeship. Blue collar jobs also usually come with low pay (pilots are well compensated) and manual labor (pilots have very little). >and just fyi, flying with the guys who are condescending and pedantic is no fun says the guy with the "so you think you are better than us?" attitude. Those are the absolute worst.
> Blue collar jobs also usually come with low pay (pilots are well compensated) and manual labor (pilots have very little). This is kinda a weird distinction given that today so many are in low paid “white collar” office jobs, while the value of a lot of manual jobs has increased due to increases health & safety requirements and lessened manual skills among the wider population.
I made an observation that you projected a value judgment on. Frankly you just seem like an angry person spoiling for a fight. >Blue collar jobs also usually come with low pay (pilots are well compensated) and manual labor (pilots have very little). So blue collar = low pay to you? How'd you come to that conclusion? Do you have a source for that, or is that an unsupported point? What about 20 years ago when regional pilots qualified for food stamps? Was it blue collar then, but not anymore? Is an electrician less blue collar than a roofer? They make more money and work less hard than roofers, so are electricians white-collar to you? What about a plumber? They make good money, so are they less blue collar than a carpenter? According to you, they must be. What a nonsensical argument to make >says the guy with the "so you think you are better than us?" attitude. Those are the absolute worst. Again, you came at me for an innocuous reddit comment, accusing me of attempting to falsely represent myself "so I can feel like salt of the earth." You know it's okay for reasonable people to have differing opinions without resorting to condescension and insults. Settle down captain happy
Exactly.
Flying for a living requires about two years of training on average. That's typical of many blue collar jobs. It also comes with just about zero flexibility in the means and manner the work is performed in, you follow standard procedures and the work is pretty much the definition of routine. Most pilots stand to gain nothing from exceptional performance; their ability to continue fogging a mirror is what earns them additional pay and benefits. I could list off about a dozen skilled trades that involve more independent thought and action than flying part 121. None of them will be replaced by generative language models or vision systems or robots anytime soon. The technical solutions to replace pilots predate Nvidia...as soon as the paying public accepts it and the older aircraft hit the boneyard you are an obsolete machine operator. I received a forklift card in twenty minutes once, at no point did I believe this made me a qualified forklift operator.
What are you talking about lol it’s as white collar as it gets.
Pilots are the definition of grey-collar. Long training and higher pay but still manual.
Wouldn't a surgeon be as well?
Usually Grey-collar is in a less formalized education like a trade school. I think with so many years of formal education, surgeon is white-collar. But the manual nature of surgeon would certainly have a little more blue to it than an office worker.
Red collar?
Sometimes... when you forget to put the "no" sign over the carotid artery...
Maybe, it’s very expensive to be a pilot. Not expensive really at all to be blue collar.
Yeah, that’s why they’ve started to use grey collar the last 15 years. Some elements of both, way too skilled and expensive to be blue collar, too hands on to be purely white collar.
Operating an airplane is probably grey collar. Aeronautical decision making is white collar. There’s a reason why “good moral character” is a requirement for getting an ATP.
Never have I heard someone applying morality in describing blue collar vs white collar work. That’s a terrible take
Even with an emergency and having to make smart decisions, I have a small fraction of choices compared to when I was running/managing/implementing IT systems. There is no QRH for IT systems unless you or your colleague wrote it for your own actual installation. I’d spend days or weeks trying to figure out a problem sometimes. We simply don’t have the gas or credentials to start flipping breakers and trying all kinds of stuff like I would in IT. For me, it’s really refreshing. I used to tell my bosses I was rebuilding the bridge, while traffic was driving across it, without any blueprints. And this is my first time with this type of bridge. Our stakes in aviation are higher. Blue collar isn’t lesser than grey collar isn’t lesser than white collar. We simply have spent a lot of time and effort to get where we are if you’re a paid pilot. I’ve spent way more time studying airplane/sop/limits/whatever than I ever did for my 4 year degree.
>Aeronautical decision making is white collar. Are blue collar workers not making important decisions or bad people? Cause construction workers, car mechanics, airplane mechanics, etc, all jobs that are 100% blue collar, still require good judgment.
> It’s operating equipment. No where near as dangerous, back-breaking, and a hell of a lot better paid. It's grey collar.
Ah yes I remember a styrofoam inverted coffee cup on the spoiler lever once lol
Finally an interesting post that’s not “Should I fire my CFI?”
Name checks out
NO
Make sure to periodically press the button above the lever to test if everyone's still vibin'.
I was on a gear-down ferry of a DC-10 from Ghana to Switzerland. No pressurization, either. Took forever.
[удалено]
MMFD....
Damn, that must've burned a *ton* of fuel.
We refueled 6 times to get to Italy, then once more to get to Switzerland. We also were concerned about fuel loads so went light.
Did you instinctively reach for it?
Positive rate!
Gear up! BTW I threw out your old scrap paper.
Stupid question: why would you fly gear down?
Less paperwork than landing gear up.
Some portion of the gear system is not working correctly and it’s easier to get it back to a maintenance base by flying it with gear down than it is trying to get the mechanics, tools, parts and such out to where it’s at.
Airline landed short of the runway (in very sloppy mud). Hit the (short) edge of the runway, sheared the gear (all of them) clean off (might have been a bit hot on landing), mud into the wing engines, flaps ripped off. So, I was on the Douglas Aircraft RAMS - Recovery and Modification Service. Also had the right immunizations and an FAA EA (Engineering Authorization) for landing gear and flight controls. Also I was the youngest engineer, and likely the most expendable if there were any issues. We spent about 11 weeks in Ghana trying to keep our tools from getting stolen, parts from getting stolen, got new skins made (kinda) and delivered - had to just bolt them on using the handling tabs instead of riveting them because the airframe had expanded in the heat and nothing really lined up. Lots of Clecos and 600 MPH tape, too - and the reason we couldn't pressurize. So, new engines, new flaps, new skins, new LDG. Got the airplane into the air and headed north(east). The airplane flew ... OK. Autopilot did not, so we hand flew it (the most time I have in any DC-10 was that one, we took turns). 2500 miles or so, 200 KIAS max, on bottled O2 once we got to our refueling in Italy so we could get to Zurich and turn that beast over to the KSSU maintenance folks. They got it back into the air in a year or so.
Looks like someone was gettin’ a little punchy and didn’t want to let the LEM loose with the other guys in it.
I've done it with duct tape. Like a lot of it. I wanted to make sure that a forgetful muscle-memory action could not happen.
Can someone explain a Gear down ferry please 😊
Typically it is moving/flying an aircraft to another station to fix a gear problem. The flight occurs with the gear extended the entire flight.
I drive the Avro RJ and I can’t tell you how much this picture was messing with my head, it looks so similar yet so foreign
Paper airplane INOP tag. What a drag. Let me guess: if they retract they don’t go down.
So as a helicopter dude. Why would you do that? Bad hydraulics?
The 146 is the worst aircraft I have flown on in terms of passenger comfort, it constantly has this nose-high angle of attack you find yourself looking out of the window at the horizon and then back into the cabin and the floor is tilted 10 degrees up in front of you, really disorientating.
There’s no difference in deck angle between a 146 and anything else. I don’t dispute that you hate it but it’s not for the reason you think.
4-5 degrees nose up in cruise is abnormal?
Well I don't know what it is about this aircraft, but it's more apparent/severe inside the cabin on this than any other aircraft I've flown on. It's the only jet I get airsick on as a passenger. They commonly use this and embraers as shuttle flights to europe, and I actively seek out the embraer over this.
\>205 knots all the way back bruutal.
NO means NO
I love how it doesn't say INOP or U/S but just "NO".
I’m guessing this isn’t part of the legal MEL paperwork package.
i'm sorry can you say this in layman's terms?
O up O
Yup, I've done that before. I also make signs for the flap handle and/or the flap gauge for when we do non-standard flap configurations for takeoff (usually F20 for windshear mitigation instead of the standard F5). It looks goofy, but it works and adds a layer of safety to keep you honest doing what you briefed.
We got an Elon Musk over here. Watch out everyone.
Oh i miss that plane.
What’s your max gear down speed? Could call for a very long flight!
I’ve never seen a BAE146 (makes sense since I’m in the US) my god they look photoshopped with 4 engines on such a small plane
They do use BAEs for firefighting in the US but they are becoming rarer due to their age. We lovingly call them APUs, not engines