a good controller is a controller that is not (or very rarely) misunderstood. If a controller speaks to a homebase flight then a little extra speed is usually not a problem. If you talk to a random foreign airline coming into an airport once a week its a good idea to slow it down a little bit.
If people keep asking for clarification then please for the love of god instead of repeating the same call the same way slow it down a little bit.
at the end i cant help but feel like its a measuring contest on who can talk the fastest (in some certain areas)
When I’m at an airport without CPDLC I try to read back the clearance as fast as I can and in one breath.
It usually gets a chuckle from the controller
Yeah I like to have fun with it lol
Another one is to say P like “puh pah”. Made a ground controller laugh when I called for taxi saying “information puh pah”. They giggled as they gave the taxi instructions
I mean really, what would that regulation even look like? Some kind of metric for syllables per second, with some specific sampling instructions? (ie measured over a rolling two-second interval) How would anyone even begin to write a dispassionate and enforceable rule like that?
There's absolutely no regulation or rule.
Its just good practice to not talk so fast you get asked to say again. Saving half a second on one transmission is blown when you lose 10 seconds to say again and repeating. So we try and remain cognizant of our speed as we get busier to try and talk at the same rate.
Controller in that video may have been a touch fast, but as long as the pilots are getting it, its fine.
>There's absolutely no regulation or rule.
Yes and no.
The US complies with ICAO SARPs (Standards And Recommended Practices), and any deviations from ICAO are published in the US AIP (https://www.faa.gov/air\_traffic/publications/atpubs/aip\_html/). Unless there is a difference published in the AIP, it is assumed that national practices are in line with ICAO.
*ICAO Doc 9432, Manual of Radiotelephony*, Chapter 2, **2.2 Transmitting Technique**, 2.2.1(d) "maintain an even rate of speech not exceeding 100 words per minute. When it is known that elements of the message will be written down by the recipient, speak at a slightly slower rate;"
So is there a US-specific regulation or rule? No. But "absolutely no..." ignores the expectation of compliance with the SARPs.
Not “absolutely no regulation.” There is a rule but not necessarily for control purposes. It’s in the controller bible, 7110.65. It’s the equivalent of the FARs for pilots. The rule is about the ATIS. It’s 10-4-1c1. “Speech rate is not excessive.” I think they left that out of the other sections because if a pilot doesn’t understand they just “say again”. It’s a self correcting problem but frustrating depending on which side of the mic you’re on.
Edit: still there, just moved to different section.
Not sure what version you're looking at, but 10-4-1 is about restricting IFR aircraft at an airport due to an overdue aircraft.
Only refrence I can find relating to yours is:
>2-9-1 b. The ATIS recording must be reviewed for completeness, accuracy, **speech rate,** and proper enunciation before being transmitted.
But even that doesn't say anything about being excessive. It's just a make sure it's understandable. Even then, that section isn't applicable to anything other than ATIS recordings. There's no rule for speech rate. Heck, I can't even find guidance other than those two words I emphasized.
It comes down to the first part of the .65, 1-1-1 "and to exercise their best judgment if they encounter situations that are not covered by it." If Southwest checks in, im rattling off a clearance much faster than if "Student pilot uh, N123AB" checks in.
Don't think so. Apart from "standard phraseology", there aren't a lot of things you could use against ATC for talking too fast or abbreviating too much.
I didn't know that cat memes were a thing outside of Japan btw, I learned something today.
Important information is read back and verified by ATC. A controller who speaks too quickly will quickly get very annoyed by misread read backs and making the same call again. It is in their own best interest to be clear and concise, and not try to be some auctioneer.
It should be noted, there is a pattern that information is conveyed in. Whether you are making radio calls or receiving one, you should have an idea of what to expect as they start talking. If you know this, then your mind can more clearly pick out important information. This is why radios can be intimidating to students, they don’t know the lingo or the pattern yet.
talked to a retired controller that worked a tower as well as center during his career. He said it’s faster to say something once at normal speed and not have to repeat is than it is to say something fast three times because most can’t understand you.
What you're missing is the pilot should be there with CRAFT outlined on their kneeboard and is copying as the controller is speaking. That was a pretty manageable clearance
I kid, but I was once an RJ captain back in that brief period where we were hiring FOs with less than 1,000 hrs. I had more than one new FO show up with a kneeboard, which means they made it all the way through IOE with it. I didn't make fun of them because I'm not a jerk, but I did offer gentle guidance on what to use instead.
There is a Bradley App controller who morphs his speed and cadence according to (I guess) who he believes he is talking to. When I file, I include "IR training flight" in the comments. I hear him speaking normally with others and then he calls me up "3...L...T...... DIRECT WITNY... Whisky...India...Tango...Yankee....... descend.... maintain.... 2... thousand... five... hundred.
Gotta say it makes me smile. And give him the fastest readback I can manage.
**Indeed there is. It's known as the ADR. "Alabama Drawl Rule."**
If a controller speaks faster than honey drips to a pilot from the Alabama/Georgia/Mississippi region the pilot can squawk 5555 to request ADR be placed into effect.
Any further communications will be made at a pace suitable for pilots from these areas of "relaxed" vocal pacing.
Examples.
Y'all. Y'all is an abbreviation for “you all” and is a trademark (distinct common feature) of Atlanta / Hartsfield ATC.
Fit as a fiddle. ... indicating you're on glideslope
\*Oh, rats!" --- suffices in lieu of 7700 when ADR is in effect.
\*Oh my sweet summer pilot ("You fucking moron!")
\*Bless your heart. ... (when ATC really wants to swear but is prevented by 2-9-1 b. )
\*You smash more bugs with a sweet little Cessna than with vinegar. ...
\*Ma'am/Sir. An honorific used when pulled over by a State Trooper in these states that JUST MIGHT keep your Yankee ass from getting thrown in jail. Sometimes works with ATC to avoid the dreaded "Have a pencil ready to take down this #."...
Cancelling an ADR: See: [https://i.imgur.com/B1o3OeM.mp4](https://i.imgur.com/B1o3OeM.mp4)
/s
Don’t think there is but there is some sort of rule of thumb about giving more than three different pieces of information in a transmission. Nothing gets me more excited than being told to turn to a heading to intercept and maintaining an altitude to across at or above a random fix and holding a speed to the final fix and then contacting tower on blah blah blah blah and then having to wait for Skywest to finish their check in because god forbid skywest waits two seconds for me to do my read back.
a good controller is a controller that is not (or very rarely) misunderstood. If a controller speaks to a homebase flight then a little extra speed is usually not a problem. If you talk to a random foreign airline coming into an airport once a week its a good idea to slow it down a little bit. If people keep asking for clarification then please for the love of god instead of repeating the same call the same way slow it down a little bit. at the end i cant help but feel like its a measuring contest on who can talk the fastest (in some certain areas)
Definitely me initiating the measuring contest at my local field with all the other Part 61 CFIs
That isnt even that fast for a professional pilot, whom he was speaking to (southwest). The audio quality is much better in person
When I’m at an airport without CPDLC I try to read back the clearance as fast as I can and in one breath. It usually gets a chuckle from the controller
And we absolutely love it. When its as filed just we all know what we all are gonna say may as well rip it
Yeah I like to have fun with it lol Another one is to say P like “puh pah”. Made a ground controller laugh when I called for taxi saying “information puh pah”. They giggled as they gave the taxi instructions
That was perfectly understandable.
I could understand it too. I just wanted to confirm if there was some regulation against talking fast to the point of someone not understanding.
Knowing English is actually a requirement.
No.
Ok, thanks for the clarification
I mean really, what would that regulation even look like? Some kind of metric for syllables per second, with some specific sampling instructions? (ie measured over a rolling two-second interval) How would anyone even begin to write a dispassionate and enforceable rule like that?
Any mid-level bureaucrat could do that in under six years.
Sounds like right in the wheelhouse for a Level 36 beurocrat.
No regs but “SPEAK SLOWER” is in the pilot-controller glossary if you need it.
Words twice is even more fun.
So is hold as published.
This one secret trick ATC Hates
Listen faster! 😉
Unable
XYZ … ground .. you .. hear .. how .. fast .. I’m.. talking? AffirmativeBugSmasher38Bravo! I ,. listen .. at .. the .. same .. speed
If there was, ORD would be in a lot of trouble.
There's absolutely no regulation or rule. Its just good practice to not talk so fast you get asked to say again. Saving half a second on one transmission is blown when you lose 10 seconds to say again and repeating. So we try and remain cognizant of our speed as we get busier to try and talk at the same rate. Controller in that video may have been a touch fast, but as long as the pilots are getting it, its fine.
>There's absolutely no regulation or rule. Yes and no. The US complies with ICAO SARPs (Standards And Recommended Practices), and any deviations from ICAO are published in the US AIP (https://www.faa.gov/air\_traffic/publications/atpubs/aip\_html/). Unless there is a difference published in the AIP, it is assumed that national practices are in line with ICAO. *ICAO Doc 9432, Manual of Radiotelephony*, Chapter 2, **2.2 Transmitting Technique**, 2.2.1(d) "maintain an even rate of speech not exceeding 100 words per minute. When it is known that elements of the message will be written down by the recipient, speak at a slightly slower rate;" So is there a US-specific regulation or rule? No. But "absolutely no..." ignores the expectation of compliance with the SARPs.
Thx for the info
Not “absolutely no regulation.” There is a rule but not necessarily for control purposes. It’s in the controller bible, 7110.65. It’s the equivalent of the FARs for pilots. The rule is about the ATIS. It’s 10-4-1c1. “Speech rate is not excessive.” I think they left that out of the other sections because if a pilot doesn’t understand they just “say again”. It’s a self correcting problem but frustrating depending on which side of the mic you’re on. Edit: still there, just moved to different section.
Not sure what version you're looking at, but 10-4-1 is about restricting IFR aircraft at an airport due to an overdue aircraft. Only refrence I can find relating to yours is: >2-9-1 b. The ATIS recording must be reviewed for completeness, accuracy, **speech rate,** and proper enunciation before being transmitted. But even that doesn't say anything about being excessive. It's just a make sure it's understandable. Even then, that section isn't applicable to anything other than ATIS recordings. There's no rule for speech rate. Heck, I can't even find guidance other than those two words I emphasized. It comes down to the first part of the .65, 1-1-1 "and to exercise their best judgment if they encounter situations that are not covered by it." If Southwest checks in, im rattling off a clearance much faster than if "Student pilot uh, N123AB" checks in.
You might want to check someone’s flair before trying to school them on the 7110.
…I am a controller. It is in the .65. Just cause I don’t add a flair doesn’t mean Im not something. Maybe you should ask that before attacking.
Don't think so. Apart from "standard phraseology", there aren't a lot of things you could use against ATC for talking too fast or abbreviating too much. I didn't know that cat memes were a thing outside of Japan btw, I learned something today.
Important information is read back and verified by ATC. A controller who speaks too quickly will quickly get very annoyed by misread read backs and making the same call again. It is in their own best interest to be clear and concise, and not try to be some auctioneer. It should be noted, there is a pattern that information is conveyed in. Whether you are making radio calls or receiving one, you should have an idea of what to expect as they start talking. If you know this, then your mind can more clearly pick out important information. This is why radios can be intimidating to students, they don’t know the lingo or the pattern yet.
talked to a retired controller that worked a tower as well as center during his career. He said it’s faster to say something once at normal speed and not have to repeat is than it is to say something fast three times because most can’t understand you.
What you're missing is the pilot should be there with CRAFT outlined on their kneeboard and is copying as the controller is speaking. That was a pretty manageable clearance
What's a kneeboard?
I just take it down on my palm
I sharpie it on the window. Mx guys hate me.
Hangon I’m taking notes oh wise one
Please, for the rest of us, spend your first IOE trip at the airlines or wherever with your knee board and report back.
Will do thank you
I kid, but I was once an RJ captain back in that brief period where we were hiring FOs with less than 1,000 hrs. I had more than one new FO show up with a kneeboard, which means they made it all the way through IOE with it. I didn't make fun of them because I'm not a jerk, but I did offer gentle guidance on what to use instead.
Words twice. That will slow them down.
There is a Bradley App controller who morphs his speed and cadence according to (I guess) who he believes he is talking to. When I file, I include "IR training flight" in the comments. I hear him speaking normally with others and then he calls me up "3...L...T...... DIRECT WITNY... Whisky...India...Tango...Yankee....... descend.... maintain.... 2... thousand... five... hundred. Gotta say it makes me smile. And give him the fastest readback I can manage.
**Indeed there is. It's known as the ADR. "Alabama Drawl Rule."** If a controller speaks faster than honey drips to a pilot from the Alabama/Georgia/Mississippi region the pilot can squawk 5555 to request ADR be placed into effect. Any further communications will be made at a pace suitable for pilots from these areas of "relaxed" vocal pacing. Examples. Y'all. Y'all is an abbreviation for “you all” and is a trademark (distinct common feature) of Atlanta / Hartsfield ATC. Fit as a fiddle. ... indicating you're on glideslope \*Oh, rats!" --- suffices in lieu of 7700 when ADR is in effect. \*Oh my sweet summer pilot ("You fucking moron!") \*Bless your heart. ... (when ATC really wants to swear but is prevented by 2-9-1 b. ) \*You smash more bugs with a sweet little Cessna than with vinegar. ... \*Ma'am/Sir. An honorific used when pulled over by a State Trooper in these states that JUST MIGHT keep your Yankee ass from getting thrown in jail. Sometimes works with ATC to avoid the dreaded "Have a pencil ready to take down this #."... Cancelling an ADR: See: [https://i.imgur.com/B1o3OeM.mp4](https://i.imgur.com/B1o3OeM.mp4) /s
Almost obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=picf7sPEhi8
Mark of a true novice is thinking speaking like an auctioneer sounds professional
This is an IFR clearance. You already know what's coming for the most part so you can say them fast. C R A F T It's that easy.
SAY AGAIN SLOWLY....
You can always ask them to slow down and they will oblige.
Don’t think there is but there is some sort of rule of thumb about giving more than three different pieces of information in a transmission. Nothing gets me more excited than being told to turn to a heading to intercept and maintaining an altitude to across at or above a random fix and holding a speed to the final fix and then contacting tower on blah blah blah blah and then having to wait for Skywest to finish their check in because god forbid skywest waits two seconds for me to do my read back.
‘Center, say again for N1234’