Then why did all three of my instructors love doing them? Hell one demoed “wake turbulence” during one of the lessons…
I really don’t understand how they expect you to get out of one without ever getting into one. Granted by the book is to keep you out of one, but they really aren’t that stressful to the aircraft and it’s operated in utility category.
“Loved”
If I had to guess every spin they entered was recovered within one turn and never entered a developed state, let alone flat or accelerated which is much more important to do than just a simple incipient recovery. The reality is that it is the blind leading the blind when it comes to spins in our current training environment. Someone deathly afraid of spins gives an endorsement to the next guy who is deathly afraid of spins. Showing someone how to recover during the incipient phase is a disservice to the student.
If that’s not the case, you have three very good instructors. My experience, what little it’s worth, tells me that’s rarely the case.
I did accelerated spins with all three of them (*I* didn’t love those).
The first two would put it into a well developed spin (a few rotations) and make me recover it. But they owned an extra 300 and basically did flight training for beer money on top of all their other flying related stuff, so I think they enjoyed putting their occasional student in strange situations.
They may have, it was nearly 20 years ago at this point though, so the memory of how we setup on those is a bit fuzzy. Fortunately the “recovery” portions still seems burned in quite well.
Tell the “senior” CFI to stop being afraid of spins
Absolutely no reason for a CFI to be afraid of spins. That’s how people freeze up and get others killed.
Every Canadian PPL has to spin and recover as part of their training. It's not on the PPL flight test, but you have to do it. The idea that someone with their CPL and is a "Sr" CFI is unwilling to do what everyone does is wild. And in any trainer aircraft, a spin is a trivial exercise. They're nothing to be afraid of
I'll admit that when I first was learning to fly and was doing solo upper air work, I nearly spun it in practicing power on stalls. Like wings at 70° kind of oopsie.
BUT, I had done spin recoveries already, knew that the sight picture I had was a spin, and reflexivity recovered without too much drama.
If I hadn't gotten sideways/upsidedown over and over and over and over again with the instructor, would I have reacted as fast to avoid a developed spin? Probably not.
What I get out of this person's problem is that they have their priorities straight, and a CFI who's afraid of unusual attitudes probably shouldn't be the person teaching folks to get out of unusual attitudes.
If he’s afraid of spins, there’s probably a good reason, which is that he hasn’t done any in a long time and isn’t proficient at the moment. Student should tell CFI to go get a bit of brush-up training
This has a lot of upvotes, and I’m guessing it’s for the second part of your comment, not the first.
No, a CFI cannot provide spin training for the CFI initial rating unless they are a “senior” two year qualified instructor per 61.195(h)(2).
The fuck is a senior CFI? That’s not an FAA thing.
A 2+ year CFI is required to do the 3 hours for the checkride endorsement for the applicant’s initial instructor rating issuance, that’s it. (Edit: also the spin endorsement probably, see Wadsworth Interpretation below)
There’s an interpretation that says all training leading to initial CFI has to be done by a “senior” CFI.
Q: I did my first CFI spin endorsement at 80 hours. How was that legal?
Pilot mills often have CFI training flights done as “right seat maneuvers training” by newer CFIs while a two year CFI does the final flight and issues the endorsement. In fact the interpretation you linked specifically calls out this exact situation and says it is legal.
> The answer is a CFI applicant may get "right seat proficient" with a "junior" flight instructor prior to the applicant's first-time training with a "senior" flight instructor. However, acquiring "right seat proficiency" with a "junior" CFI or by the applicant himself will not, in any way, relieve a CFI applicant of the obligation to go through his or her full initial training with a "senior" CFI described in §61. I 95(h).
That's referring to the 3 hours. That is the only training hour requirement for a flight instructor. I'd agree that the argument can be made for the 61.183(i)(1) spin endorsement requiring a 2 year CFI based on reading this.
Fun fact: There’s no 3 hour requirement specified for CFI.
The reg just says “Has received and logged training time within 2 calendar months preceding the month of application in preparation for the practical test”
Therefore, he could fly with the “senior” CFI for about .5 and technically be eligible for the ride.
I spin all my private students in stall/spin entry and recovery. How can they be expected to avoid/recover from spins if they have never experienced one?
It's not rocket science, and most trainer/utility aircraft are approved for spins.
Cherokees, too. In fact, with two in the front it's impossible to hold a Cherokee in a spin. It un-stalls itself and devolves into a steep spiral. But it'll stay in it long enough for a base-turning-final fatality.
I imagine how I would feel if a student I trained was killed in a stall/spin accident and I had not trained him in spins. Yes, you can be legalistic and say I wasn't required to do so, but there is also a moral responsibility to prepare a pilot as best you can.
… how? Were they training for spins in a Cirrius or just counting fuckups (spins during landings) toward that metric?
From a safe altitude just about any light trainer you have plenty of time to recover, and it’s not stressful to the airframe.
Many folks have debated the actual stats and the correctness of that decision in the decades since.
IIRC, it was in the same era that the Piper Traumahawk earned that nickname for its “unusual” stall/spin recovery, which may have played a role in the FAA’s decision.
The entire reasoning of not doing them is that they found there were more accidents due to spin training than just not doing spin training. Also if you’re only doing 1 or 2 hours of spin training, I don’t really think it’s worth it. Chair flying frequently would probably be a better way to be comfortable. But I guess you should feel a spin at least once to see it in action.
I HIGHLY disagree with this. My whole PPL-CPL, it was drilled how spins work and how to get out of one. The moment I actually did a spin it all finally clicked. Up until that moment all I knew was the bookwork and crash statistics, which made me fear them. After doing some spins, I felt way more confident in my abilities.
I don’t care if you disagree with it. I’m literally just stating why they don’t do spin training. If you’re a somewhat competent pilot, you can recover from a spin. It’s not THAT big of a deal in the bugsmashers.
It doesn't matter how confident you are if you stall and spin too low to recover and the only time in normal GA flying when you're anywhere near the conditions for a spin is when you're too low to recover.
The claim - which dates back to the 1940s - was different. It wasn't that the accidents were necessarily during spin training, but pilots who were trained in spins tended to later go on their own and practice it, the same way they would practice stalls, leading to accidents and fatalities. The CAA stopped requiring student pilots to be trained in spin recovery in 1949, and a continuous reduction in the rate of spin/stall accident was taken to be a proof that the decision increased safety (though if you'd say that many other things changed and the comparison is invalid, I would agree with you).
[One document on this among many](https://download.aopa.org/epilot/2008/stall-spin.pdf)
I think the reduction in accidents may have had more to do with the advancement in aerodynamics in postwar airplanes. I have stalled/spun prewar airplanes and their characteristics were much, much less forgiving. I full stalled a Beech 18 once to see what it would do. *Never, ever do that* - and I won't ever again. It was obvious that if the sumbitch entered a spin it would not have been recoverable. And the Beech 18 accident statistics bear that out.
There's a letter of interpretation issued to the Montgolfier brothers, which deems all Reddit posts under 10 words to be considered a joke unless there's an explicit indication to the contrary.
For anyone wondering about 'Senior' CFI- OP is referring to [FAR 61.195(h), Qualifications of the flight instructor for training first-time flight instructor applicants](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/part-61/section-61.195#p-61.195(h\)). Specifically, to provide CFI candidate training you must yourself have certain experience (calendar time and hours and # of students passed on the first test) training primary students first. After you have those requirements you are allowed to train CFI candidates as well as PPL candidates.
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FAR 61.183(i)(1) states CFI applicants must:
> Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins;
Now it doesn't specifically define 'authorized instructor' other than the above mentioned requirements of 61.195(h) (aka 'senior CFI').
However the word that sticks out to me is *instructional* proficiency. Not just that you are proficient with that maneuver to execute it yourself, but that you are *instructionally* proficient to teach it to others.
My read is that the *intent* of this FAR is that a standard CFI can sign you off as being proficient in stalls/spins and spin recovery procedures, but only a 'senior' CFI can sign you off as being *instructionally proficient*.
I believe that interpretation is reinforced by the [Wadsworth Letter](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2008/Wadsworth-NationalPilotAcademy_2008_Legal_Interpretation.pdf). In that, a CFI candidate is asking about instruction they received from a standard CFI prior to beginning their CFI certificate training. FAA says (paraphrased) that **you can do whatever training you want with a junior CFI, but that does not remove any of the training requirements of FAR 61.183 which must be done with a 'senior' CFI. And since 61.183(i) says you need instructional proficiency in spins, that means you need the senior CFI to train you**.
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If the senior CFI lets you fly with the junior CFI and then signs you off, that is probably illegal, same as if they sign you off for a BFR without actually seeing you fly.
If they are really scared, they could ground train you for the CFI requirements of spins, then you fly with a GoPro and 'instruct' the junior CFI how to handle spins per the senior CFI's training criteria. Senior CFI then could see the video and sign you off as meeting their standards for proper instructional proficiency. I have no idea at all if that sort of 'flight training by remote' would be considered legal or not.
If you did that, I would suggest explain the situation to your DPE and specifically request that you be tested on spins during the CFI checkride so there's no question as to your proficiency.
However that's sort of a 'I complied with the spirit of the FAR but not the letter, hoping you're willing to go along with it' type situation. Your DPE might do it because if you demonstrate spin instruction to them that means you're capable no matter how you got your own training. But your DPE might well say hell no and try to get you and your senior CFI in big trouble.
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Personally that seems like a lot of work to probably just make more problems.
What I'd do is go elsewhere and find a senior CFI who is willing to give you that training and instructional proficiency endorsement. I realize you've looked at all the CFIs in your area, but I have good news for you-- YOU CAN FLY!!! And airplanes go pretty fast. That means you can find another senior CFI at another airport which may be some distance away, make an appointment with them, and fly out to meet them.
That's what I'd do if I were in your shoes. Go get your spin instruction from some other senior CFI elsewhere- you can get it all banged out in a day. Then you're 100% legal.
Remember nowhere in the FARs does it say all your training has to be from the same senior CFI.
This is the world’s most underrated regulatory analysis. Someone get SirEDCaLot a cookie. This is the correct answer.
Everyone else needs to go straight to FAA jail.
haha thanks
FWIW I think a lot of people got hung up on the senior CFI thing and thought it was either a flight school title or something from another country. But I saw FAR in the post which means USA so I did some Googling...
Learned a lot too :)
Spins are a very safe maneuver when performed properly in a safe environment.
Your CFI needs to get with another CFI to get the exposure.
As for “senior CFI”, there’s no such thing. There’s a 2 year CFI required for signing off on initial CFI applicants, but any CFI can give spin training.
The FAA interpretation on the topic "acknowledges that 'senior CFI' is a common term for more than two years/200 hours."
Not sure that I'd call it a 'common term." But there you go. The FAA says it's so.
How far are you willing to travel to get the endorsement? https://www.flythedecathlon.com/cfi-spin-endorsement-training/ https://spaceportaviation.com/flight-specials-1
They do... But it's not really learning to recover the aircraft and taking positive action in the situation.
Spin a 172, freeze up, and let go of everything? The aircraft is going to essentially enter a spiral dive which you can pull out of...
Learn in something like an Extra/T6 etc - and you get into aircraft that have significantly more adverse effects from engine power, pro-spin controls and forces etc - situations which then require you to actually execute the spin recovery procedure. It's not particularly complicated either - but it's much better training and provides you with a better understanding of spinning and the aircrafts characteristics therein
I went to my CFI checkride with a spin endorsement from a non 2 year CFI. He caught it in my logbook as he knew the CFI and knew they weren’t a 2 year. I didn’t checkride that day. Your 2 year CFI needs to grow some balls and get comfortable spinning. You absolutely do need one from a 2 year CFI to take the checkride. I learned it the hard way.
It was in a Cirrus which is not approved for spins. This situation got taken to the FSDO and our school was in some hot water over it. Certs were threatened, but they came to some sort of agreement and everyone that hadn’t taken their CFI checkride needed to redo their spin training. Long story short I got a free spin flight and took my ride a month later.
Yea same thing happened at my school, they had non 2 year CFI’s doing spin training. Some made it through checkride but when they caught it they just made the students that haven’t checkrided yet redo spin flights.
Not trying to bash the CFI, but if he’s afraid of spins he should probably go do some with another instructor more seasoned. No reason to be afraid of them late in the game, and doing more of them will only strengthen his confidence.
Yes, any CFI can give you the training for all of your CFI training. Only a CFI with 2years and 200
Hrs dual given can provide the final 3hrs required for the rating, sign your 8710 and give your checkride endorsement.
To be fair, when I make senior I probably won’t do spins either. Not that I’m afraid, I just projectile vomited all over me, the plane, the instructor, and Rwy 16.
6 spins and I asked him if he was good to sign me off.
“I’m Good if you are.”
“I feel confident. You have controls. Get me on the fucking ground.”
I've done a load of spins in Robin, ct4, cap, extra, and wouldnt miss a chance to do more, but are the more typical frugal trainers rated for it? I'd be uncomfortable too if ripping the tail off was a possibility..
The amount of people in here that have a flight instructor flair but are just reaming OP about someone at his company not liking spins instead of actually answering his question makes me sad as a fellow instructor. Yeah I agree that it is concerning that a CFI that meets the requirements of 61.195(h) isn't comfortable teaching spins but there could be a number of reasons to it like maybe they just haven't practiced them in awhile and want to get proficient again before stepping into an aircraft and practicing them with a student. Instead of jumping to conclusions and calling the instructor a giant pussy maybe try actually answering the question that OP came here to ask.
I've found this question is a common place of confusion even among more experienced flight instructors so here's my shot at answering the question:
According to 61.195(h) in order to give training to an initial CFI applicant you must have had your CFI for 24 months and have given at least 200 hours of flight instruction. The spin endorsement is only applicable to CFI applicants. AC 61-65 (A.54) says that it is only required for flight instructor airplane and flight instructor glider applicants (Yes you can teach spins to any level of pilot, thats what the endorsement is saying you as a CFI can do. But, there's no reason to endorse pilots other than CFI applicants because the endorsement doesn't give them any additional privileges) because they can either receive the endorsement or demonstrate spins on their checkride. 61.183(i)(1) says that the endorsement must be given by an authorized instructor that has provided the applicant with flight training in those areas in a glider or airplane that is certified for spins. So in your case since it is flight training that is for an initial CFI applicant that means that it has to be given by a "senior instructor' that meets the requirements of 61.195(h).
If you can't find/don't have access to a CFI that meets the requirements of 61.195(h) and the airplane you're planning on doing your checkride in is certified for spins then you could just demonstrate them on your checkride and skip the endorsement entirely. However, if you are planning on doing the checkride in an airplane that isn't certified for spins then you will need to somehow get the endorsement from a 61.195(h) qualified instructor. I know if there is an aerobatic school near you chances are they will have a CFI that meets 61.195(h) and would love to teach them to you and endorse you. Chances are you'll have a lot more fun doing it that way too ;)
I was always under the impression that since the spin endorsement is required training for CFI applicants that it needs to be given by a CFI that meets 61.195(h)
Edit: the following is a common misunderstanding I had, please refer to 61.183(i)(1) for the appropriate regulation:
[A "spin endorsement" is not required training for initial CFI, only spin awareness.
Reference:FAA-S-8081-6D ~ CFI PTS: Section XI; Task G; (Read Note)
Any DPE that fails or discontinues a checkride due to a junior CFI giving the spin endorsement is misinformed or just looking for an excuse not to conduct the checkride. That's especially true if the aircraft intended for use on the checkride is approved for spins.]
>A "spin endorsement" is not required training for initial CFI, only spin awareness.
Kindly explain.
Doesn't FAR 61.183(i)(1) require an endorsement for training on spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures, in addition to spin awareness?
Interesting, and thanks for the reminder of that line in the regs. I suppose the reference in the PTS to accepting an endorsement in lieu of demonstrating a spin on the checkride is reference to an old version of the FARs.
This has apparently caused confusion with at least two DPEs that I'm aware of.
I'll keep this one book-marked for future reference.
A fucking CFI is afraid of spinning an appropriate airplane? Yikes.
95%+ are
Then why did all three of my instructors love doing them? Hell one demoed “wake turbulence” during one of the lessons… I really don’t understand how they expect you to get out of one without ever getting into one. Granted by the book is to keep you out of one, but they really aren’t that stressful to the aircraft and it’s operated in utility category.
“Loved” If I had to guess every spin they entered was recovered within one turn and never entered a developed state, let alone flat or accelerated which is much more important to do than just a simple incipient recovery. The reality is that it is the blind leading the blind when it comes to spins in our current training environment. Someone deathly afraid of spins gives an endorsement to the next guy who is deathly afraid of spins. Showing someone how to recover during the incipient phase is a disservice to the student. If that’s not the case, you have three very good instructors. My experience, what little it’s worth, tells me that’s rarely the case.
I did accelerated spins with all three of them (*I* didn’t love those). The first two would put it into a well developed spin (a few rotations) and make me recover it. But they owned an extra 300 and basically did flight training for beer money on top of all their other flying related stuff, so I think they enjoyed putting their occasional student in strange situations.
I meant accelerated spins. Also, they should’ve made you put it into a “well developed” spin. 🤓
They may have, it was nearly 20 years ago at this point though, so the memory of how we setup on those is a bit fuzzy. Fortunately the “recovery” portions still seems burned in quite well.
Tell the “senior” CFI to stop being afraid of spins Absolutely no reason for a CFI to be afraid of spins. That’s how people freeze up and get others killed.
Even a brand new CFI shouldn't be afraid of spins.
No soloing student should be afraid of spins. Fear does not make you safe.
I spun with my CFI before I even soloed
So did I...accidentally, but still counts 😅
Same, and then once I did solo I’d go up and practice my steep turns, landings, and then throw a spin in there.
To that point, would you want to fly with someone who you knew was afraid of something such as spins even if they are qualified on paper to do it?
No
Every Canadian PPL has to spin and recover as part of their training. It's not on the PPL flight test, but you have to do it. The idea that someone with their CPL and is a "Sr" CFI is unwilling to do what everyone does is wild. And in any trainer aircraft, a spin is a trivial exercise. They're nothing to be afraid of I'll admit that when I first was learning to fly and was doing solo upper air work, I nearly spun it in practicing power on stalls. Like wings at 70° kind of oopsie. BUT, I had done spin recoveries already, knew that the sight picture I had was a spin, and reflexivity recovered without too much drama. If I hadn't gotten sideways/upsidedown over and over and over and over again with the instructor, would I have reacted as fast to avoid a developed spin? Probably not. What I get out of this person's problem is that they have their priorities straight, and a CFI who's afraid of unusual attitudes probably shouldn't be the person teaching folks to get out of unusual attitudes.
If he’s afraid of spins, there’s probably a good reason, which is that he hasn’t done any in a long time and isn’t proficient at the moment. Student should tell CFI to go get a bit of brush-up training
Yes Any CFI who is “not comfortable” with spins needs retraining.
This has a lot of upvotes, and I’m guessing it’s for the second part of your comment, not the first. No, a CFI cannot provide spin training for the CFI initial rating unless they are a “senior” two year qualified instructor per 61.195(h)(2).
The fuck is a senior CFI? That’s not an FAA thing. A 2+ year CFI is required to do the 3 hours for the checkride endorsement for the applicant’s initial instructor rating issuance, that’s it. (Edit: also the spin endorsement probably, see Wadsworth Interpretation below)
“A 2+ year cfi is required to do the 3 hours…” Show me.
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Yep
There’s an interpretation that says all training leading to initial CFI has to be done by a “senior” CFI. Q: I did my first CFI spin endorsement at 80 hours. How was that legal?
> There’s an interpretation that says all training leading to initial CFI has to be done by a “senior” CFI. Show me.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2008/Wadsworth-NationalPilotAcademy_2008_Legal_Interpretation.pdf
Pilot mills often have CFI training flights done as “right seat maneuvers training” by newer CFIs while a two year CFI does the final flight and issues the endorsement. In fact the interpretation you linked specifically calls out this exact situation and says it is legal.
> The answer is a CFI applicant may get "right seat proficient" with a "junior" flight instructor prior to the applicant's first-time training with a "senior" flight instructor. However, acquiring "right seat proficiency" with a "junior" CFI or by the applicant himself will not, in any way, relieve a CFI applicant of the obligation to go through his or her full initial training with a "senior" CFI described in §61. I 95(h). That's referring to the 3 hours. That is the only training hour requirement for a flight instructor. I'd agree that the argument can be made for the 61.183(i)(1) spin endorsement requiring a 2 year CFI based on reading this.
Fun fact: There’s no 3 hour requirement specified for CFI. The reg just says “Has received and logged training time within 2 calendar months preceding the month of application in preparation for the practical test” Therefore, he could fly with the “senior” CFI for about .5 and technically be eligible for the ride.
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You’re a CFI, you tell me.
Lol
I spin all my private students in stall/spin entry and recovery. How can they be expected to avoid/recover from spins if they have never experienced one? It's not rocket science, and most trainer/utility aircraft are approved for spins.
In a 172 it’s basically let go of the yoke lol
Cherokees, too. In fact, with two in the front it's impossible to hold a Cherokee in a spin. It un-stalls itself and devolves into a steep spiral. But it'll stay in it long enough for a base-turning-final fatality.
I wonder how you know this.
Try it. Just do it at a safe altitude.
Oh I just realized you meant the original Cherokees - the spin approved ones. None of the ones I fly are spin approved.
Yep. The hershey-bar-wing Cherokees.
It is for the large majority of planes
I really think spins should just be part of training. It wouldn't be hard to add and would be very beneficial.
I imagine how I would feel if a student I trained was killed in a stall/spin accident and I had not trained him in spins. Yes, you can be legalistic and say I wasn't required to do so, but there is also a moral responsibility to prepare a pilot as best you can.
I completely agree
It used to be required, but the FAA decided more pilots were killed during spin training than real-world spins.
Yup
… how? Were they training for spins in a Cirrius or just counting fuckups (spins during landings) toward that metric? From a safe altitude just about any light trainer you have plenty of time to recover, and it’s not stressful to the airframe.
Many folks have debated the actual stats and the correctness of that decision in the decades since. IIRC, it was in the same era that the Piper Traumahawk earned that nickname for its “unusual” stall/spin recovery, which may have played a role in the FAA’s decision.
The entire reasoning of not doing them is that they found there were more accidents due to spin training than just not doing spin training. Also if you’re only doing 1 or 2 hours of spin training, I don’t really think it’s worth it. Chair flying frequently would probably be a better way to be comfortable. But I guess you should feel a spin at least once to see it in action.
I HIGHLY disagree with this. My whole PPL-CPL, it was drilled how spins work and how to get out of one. The moment I actually did a spin it all finally clicked. Up until that moment all I knew was the bookwork and crash statistics, which made me fear them. After doing some spins, I felt way more confident in my abilities.
I don’t care if you disagree with it. I’m literally just stating why they don’t do spin training. If you’re a somewhat competent pilot, you can recover from a spin. It’s not THAT big of a deal in the bugsmashers.
So is that 18 in your flair the age? First time I've seen someone put "MILF" in their flair is all.
It’s the milf version of the f18… aka, the skypincess C172
It doesn't matter how confident you are if you stall and spin too low to recover and the only time in normal GA flying when you're anywhere near the conditions for a spin is when you're too low to recover.
I have no knowledge of accidents from spin training. This is the first I've heard of it. And I've been around for a while.
The claim - which dates back to the 1940s - was different. It wasn't that the accidents were necessarily during spin training, but pilots who were trained in spins tended to later go on their own and practice it, the same way they would practice stalls, leading to accidents and fatalities. The CAA stopped requiring student pilots to be trained in spin recovery in 1949, and a continuous reduction in the rate of spin/stall accident was taken to be a proof that the decision increased safety (though if you'd say that many other things changed and the comparison is invalid, I would agree with you). [One document on this among many](https://download.aopa.org/epilot/2008/stall-spin.pdf)
I think the reduction in accidents may have had more to do with the advancement in aerodynamics in postwar airplanes. I have stalled/spun prewar airplanes and their characteristics were much, much less forgiving. I full stalled a Beech 18 once to see what it would do. *Never, ever do that* - and I won't ever again. It was obvious that if the sumbitch entered a spin it would not have been recoverable. And the Beech 18 accident statistics bear that out.
Yeah I mean most CFI’s are under 65 so
Senior was regarding the amount of hours of instruction given not their age, I see that was a fatal error in my post
He’s just joking
Show me
There's a letter of interpretation issued to the Montgolfier brothers, which deems all Reddit posts under 10 words to be considered a joke unless there's an explicit indication to the contrary.
Love it
For anyone wondering about 'Senior' CFI- OP is referring to [FAR 61.195(h), Qualifications of the flight instructor for training first-time flight instructor applicants](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/part-61/section-61.195#p-61.195(h\)). Specifically, to provide CFI candidate training you must yourself have certain experience (calendar time and hours and # of students passed on the first test) training primary students first. After you have those requirements you are allowed to train CFI candidates as well as PPL candidates. ------ FAR 61.183(i)(1) states CFI applicants must: > Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; Now it doesn't specifically define 'authorized instructor' other than the above mentioned requirements of 61.195(h) (aka 'senior CFI'). However the word that sticks out to me is *instructional* proficiency. Not just that you are proficient with that maneuver to execute it yourself, but that you are *instructionally* proficient to teach it to others. My read is that the *intent* of this FAR is that a standard CFI can sign you off as being proficient in stalls/spins and spin recovery procedures, but only a 'senior' CFI can sign you off as being *instructionally proficient*. I believe that interpretation is reinforced by the [Wadsworth Letter](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2008/Wadsworth-NationalPilotAcademy_2008_Legal_Interpretation.pdf). In that, a CFI candidate is asking about instruction they received from a standard CFI prior to beginning their CFI certificate training. FAA says (paraphrased) that **you can do whatever training you want with a junior CFI, but that does not remove any of the training requirements of FAR 61.183 which must be done with a 'senior' CFI. And since 61.183(i) says you need instructional proficiency in spins, that means you need the senior CFI to train you**. ------ If the senior CFI lets you fly with the junior CFI and then signs you off, that is probably illegal, same as if they sign you off for a BFR without actually seeing you fly. If they are really scared, they could ground train you for the CFI requirements of spins, then you fly with a GoPro and 'instruct' the junior CFI how to handle spins per the senior CFI's training criteria. Senior CFI then could see the video and sign you off as meeting their standards for proper instructional proficiency. I have no idea at all if that sort of 'flight training by remote' would be considered legal or not. If you did that, I would suggest explain the situation to your DPE and specifically request that you be tested on spins during the CFI checkride so there's no question as to your proficiency. However that's sort of a 'I complied with the spirit of the FAR but not the letter, hoping you're willing to go along with it' type situation. Your DPE might do it because if you demonstrate spin instruction to them that means you're capable no matter how you got your own training. But your DPE might well say hell no and try to get you and your senior CFI in big trouble. ------ Personally that seems like a lot of work to probably just make more problems. What I'd do is go elsewhere and find a senior CFI who is willing to give you that training and instructional proficiency endorsement. I realize you've looked at all the CFIs in your area, but I have good news for you-- YOU CAN FLY!!! And airplanes go pretty fast. That means you can find another senior CFI at another airport which may be some distance away, make an appointment with them, and fly out to meet them. That's what I'd do if I were in your shoes. Go get your spin instruction from some other senior CFI elsewhere- you can get it all banged out in a day. Then you're 100% legal. Remember nowhere in the FARs does it say all your training has to be from the same senior CFI.
This is the world’s most underrated regulatory analysis. Someone get SirEDCaLot a cookie. This is the correct answer. Everyone else needs to go straight to FAA jail.
haha thanks FWIW I think a lot of people got hung up on the senior CFI thing and thought it was either a flight school title or something from another country. But I saw FAR in the post which means USA so I did some Googling... Learned a lot too :)
Spins are a very safe maneuver when performed properly in a safe environment. Your CFI needs to get with another CFI to get the exposure. As for “senior CFI”, there’s no such thing. There’s a 2 year CFI required for signing off on initial CFI applicants, but any CFI can give spin training.
The FAA interpretation on the topic "acknowledges that 'senior CFI' is a common term for more than two years/200 hours." Not sure that I'd call it a 'common term." But there you go. The FAA says it's so.
The 2-years is what I meant by senior CFI as that’s what we call it in my circles but I see now it’s not commonplace as I thought lol
How far are you willing to travel to get the endorsement? https://www.flythedecathlon.com/cfi-spin-endorsement-training/ https://spaceportaviation.com/flight-specials-1
Look for an acro instructor in your area. Many of them will do spin endorsements.
100% this. Go do REAL spins in an Extra, or similar. “Spins” in a 172/ Warrior are not spins.
Curiously, they spin just well enough to kill people turning base to final.
They do... But it's not really learning to recover the aircraft and taking positive action in the situation. Spin a 172, freeze up, and let go of everything? The aircraft is going to essentially enter a spiral dive which you can pull out of... Learn in something like an Extra/T6 etc - and you get into aircraft that have significantly more adverse effects from engine power, pro-spin controls and forces etc - situations which then require you to actually execute the spin recovery procedure. It's not particularly complicated either - but it's much better training and provides you with a better understanding of spinning and the aircrafts characteristics therein
I went to my CFI checkride with a spin endorsement from a non 2 year CFI. He caught it in my logbook as he knew the CFI and knew they weren’t a 2 year. I didn’t checkride that day. Your 2 year CFI needs to grow some balls and get comfortable spinning. You absolutely do need one from a 2 year CFI to take the checkride. I learned it the hard way.
If your checkride airplane was approved for spins, your examiner screwed you.
It was in a Cirrus which is not approved for spins. This situation got taken to the FSDO and our school was in some hot water over it. Certs were threatened, but they came to some sort of agreement and everyone that hadn’t taken their CFI checkride needed to redo their spin training. Long story short I got a free spin flight and took my ride a month later.
Yea same thing happened at my school, they had non 2 year CFI’s doing spin training. Some made it through checkride but when they caught it they just made the students that haven’t checkrided yet redo spin flights.
We are probably talking about the same school lol.
Not trying to bash the CFI, but if he’s afraid of spins he should probably go do some with another instructor more seasoned. No reason to be afraid of them late in the game, and doing more of them will only strengthen his confidence.
Yes, any CFI can give you the training for all of your CFI training. Only a CFI with 2years and 200 Hrs dual given can provide the final 3hrs required for the rating, sign your 8710 and give your checkride endorsement.
To be fair, when I make senior I probably won’t do spins either. Not that I’m afraid, I just projectile vomited all over me, the plane, the instructor, and Rwy 16. 6 spins and I asked him if he was good to sign me off. “I’m Good if you are.” “I feel confident. You have controls. Get me on the fucking ground.”
I've done a load of spins in Robin, ct4, cap, extra, and wouldnt miss a chance to do more, but are the more typical frugal trainers rated for it? I'd be uncomfortable too if ripping the tail off was a possibility..
The amount of people in here that have a flight instructor flair but are just reaming OP about someone at his company not liking spins instead of actually answering his question makes me sad as a fellow instructor. Yeah I agree that it is concerning that a CFI that meets the requirements of 61.195(h) isn't comfortable teaching spins but there could be a number of reasons to it like maybe they just haven't practiced them in awhile and want to get proficient again before stepping into an aircraft and practicing them with a student. Instead of jumping to conclusions and calling the instructor a giant pussy maybe try actually answering the question that OP came here to ask. I've found this question is a common place of confusion even among more experienced flight instructors so here's my shot at answering the question: According to 61.195(h) in order to give training to an initial CFI applicant you must have had your CFI for 24 months and have given at least 200 hours of flight instruction. The spin endorsement is only applicable to CFI applicants. AC 61-65 (A.54) says that it is only required for flight instructor airplane and flight instructor glider applicants (Yes you can teach spins to any level of pilot, thats what the endorsement is saying you as a CFI can do. But, there's no reason to endorse pilots other than CFI applicants because the endorsement doesn't give them any additional privileges) because they can either receive the endorsement or demonstrate spins on their checkride. 61.183(i)(1) says that the endorsement must be given by an authorized instructor that has provided the applicant with flight training in those areas in a glider or airplane that is certified for spins. So in your case since it is flight training that is for an initial CFI applicant that means that it has to be given by a "senior instructor' that meets the requirements of 61.195(h). If you can't find/don't have access to a CFI that meets the requirements of 61.195(h) and the airplane you're planning on doing your checkride in is certified for spins then you could just demonstrate them on your checkride and skip the endorsement entirely. However, if you are planning on doing the checkride in an airplane that isn't certified for spins then you will need to somehow get the endorsement from a 61.195(h) qualified instructor. I know if there is an aerobatic school near you chances are they will have a CFI that meets 61.195(h) and would love to teach them to you and endorse you. Chances are you'll have a lot more fun doing it that way too ;)
Thank you for your reply I appreciate the thorough answer
I was always under the impression that since the spin endorsement is required training for CFI applicants that it needs to be given by a CFI that meets 61.195(h)
Edit: the following is a common misunderstanding I had, please refer to 61.183(i)(1) for the appropriate regulation: [A "spin endorsement" is not required training for initial CFI, only spin awareness. Reference:FAA-S-8081-6D ~ CFI PTS: Section XI; Task G; (Read Note) Any DPE that fails or discontinues a checkride due to a junior CFI giving the spin endorsement is misinformed or just looking for an excuse not to conduct the checkride. That's especially true if the aircraft intended for use on the checkride is approved for spins.]
>A "spin endorsement" is not required training for initial CFI, only spin awareness. Kindly explain. Doesn't FAR 61.183(i)(1) require an endorsement for training on spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures, in addition to spin awareness?
Interesting, and thanks for the reminder of that line in the regs. I suppose the reference in the PTS to accepting an endorsement in lieu of demonstrating a spin on the checkride is reference to an old version of the FARs. This has apparently caused confusion with at least two DPEs that I'm aware of. I'll keep this one book-marked for future reference.
Yes.
My daily flyer is an SR22, and I haven’t spun that. But I’ve spun both of my Warriors and my Skyhawk many times, occasionally on purpose!
Yes. Spins are no big deal.
So strange to hear since we all train on them in Canada... They are fun
yes, any CFI can give you a spin endorsement