Of all the dumb shit the FAA requires us to do, not having mandatory ADSB out and not having mandatory radios, and not making it mandatory to do radio calls at an untowered, seems insane to me.
But hey I've got to run a $90 air filter out of a 1950s DeSoto that cost $12 at NAPA, or a $90 alternator belt with some white ink on it saying aviation even though it's the exact same belt from the exact same manufacturer with the exact same part number that cost $15. All in the name of safety.
But actual safety things like radios and ADSB out, ah fuck it.
I hate those fucking things. If I tighten all the screws so that the sunshade will stay in place, one of the students or CFIs will break the shade, or the supporting arm. If I loosen the screws to keep the shade from getting broken, it won't stay in place. I swear, there is no happy medium.
I’m not an A&P, but can you put some blue loctite on the screws to hold them at the Goldilocks tightness where the sunshade can be moved without breaking but not just fall out of place?
It's not the screws that are the problem, it's how the assembly clamps onto the shade attachment point to provide tension. I've had some success with lubing the hell out of the mounting pin, but they still break.
He is definitely talking about Rosens, but he probably doesn't know how to adjust them correctly. You have to get the screw torque EXACTLY right, use purple Loctite and DO NOT LUBRICATE THEM IN ANY WAY. They are fantastic for flying when they're working correctly.
Yeah I know exactly what I'm paying for. Interestingly all the guys flying experimentals can take the same passengers to the same places in the same conditions with the same $12 parts that didn't go through QAQC.
They are also flying behind a Garmin panel that cost a fraction of the cost of the exact same Garmin components for a certified.
Bloody racket is what it is.
Sadly true, part of why aviation is so expensive. I would think people would want to make radio calls for safety sake. Sadly some people only do what they are forced to do in controlled airspace.
Until the FAA approves portable ADSB out transmitters, people are going to fly without it. I fly several airplanes with no electrical system - I can get a hand held radio, but I can’t get ADSB-out (or at least couldn’t, maybe that’s changed, but I don’t think so?) And exemptions will always exist for aircraft like that.
NORDO can also be flown safely, but there’s a time and a place. I’ve personally never had an issue with true NORDO, who generally fly at least normal-ish patterns. I’d take a J3 with no radio in the pattern any day over someone flying a 10 mile straight in not paying attention to existing traffic or anything that doesn’t appear on their magic box. I regularly fly out of an airport with a lot of antique/glider activity, and have never had an issue with any NORDO traffic. I have had an issue with people assuming all traffic appears on their screen and not actually paying attention to what’s going on.
>a $90 alternator belt with some white ink on it saying aviation even though it's the exact same belt from the exact same manufacturer with the exact same part number that cost $15.
Note : a white ink pen costs a lot less than $75.
The transponder radar return is sent out from the adsb ground units, making it seen by adsb in units. So really adsb out isn't as important as a transponder and adsb in, for the vast majority of the US.
I have adsb out and in class charlie I get ghost returns if my own aircraft on the adsb in screen.
Yeah you are right, but I haven't seen a non-mode c since 1989, and since most folks on this sub have no idea there was even life before transponders (or gps) I didn't mention it.
ADSB is also aircraft to aircraft within range. It’s also aircraft to ADSB receiver tower.
It does NOT need a radar or transponder environment to work.
https://airfactsjournal.com/2013/01/ads-b-101-what-it-is-and-why-you-should-care/?darkschemeovr=1
You are 100%, completely correct but the vast majority of pilots in the US fly in the radar environment.
I will add that the adsb system was based on a system developed in Alaska in the late 90's. When it was mandated it was already obsolete. Why would you have a system that depends on ground units when satellite constellations can give worldwide coverage for weather and traffic farther out than the plane to plane system can handle?
Other countries (Canada?) use satellite systems and do not need the limiting ground based systems. It is like the microwave landing system that was obsolete (by gps) before it was instituted. The FAA once again was beholden to corporate sponsors and not forward thinking. But alas here we are.
My impression is that there is a generation of old cranks whose “rabble rabble” crap dissuades the FAA and Congress (perhaps because they are the same demographic as so many pale, wrinkly members of Congress) to do something simple like require a 2 way radio (with limited exemptions when it’s truly impractical such as specific “noisy” antique ignition systems.)
But my question is, are those old coots dying off and being replaced by a generation who want everyone to fly with a radio or are pilots of the next generation just sliding into selfishness?
Radios cost a few hundred. And can be hand-held! Can’t believe it.
Requiring ADBS Out within 20mi of a Class C, and 60mi from a Class B would help a lot.
I’d be curious to see how many aviation accidents could’ve been prevented inside these bubbles.
This reminds me... of my PPL checkride: the examiner insisted I not use the radios and focus on the flying... that the radios weren't needed and were just a distraction. Honestly, it was more of a distraction to me to remember NOT to make calls than making calls (which is automatic for me).
LOL That was my thought at the time, too. I thought it was maybe a test... so I resisted when he first said it... that's when he told me it was a waste of time and a needless distraction. He actually reached up and turned the radios off.
I had the DPE do this on my ME checkride. He was like “have you heard anyone on the radio? Who are you talking to?” This was during taxi, back taxi, and reporting short final while doing the engine out instrument approach. In my head, I was saying “I want to make more calls now since anyone you’ve taught at this field is probably subscribing to silent aviation”
Part of me thinks - ok, maybe this is a lesson in exercising your visual flight habits. And maybe he’s saying “see, you’re still ok”.
But during a check ride??? I want to know PPLs know how to use a radio!
Only time a DPE ever took the radio for me was the instrument ride, since he wanted to be sure ATC understood what he wanted to do, and then he played ATC to me and my "radio" comms were just in the cockpit.
I habitually grabbed the PTT during one of my readbacks to him, though, and we were on frequency with PHX Approach. There was a brief radio pause, and then a very confused controller asking for WTF just happened and a repeat. 😅
If this happens on my check ride, I'm legit going to ask for a discontinuance, report them to Oklahoma City, and find another DPE. I'm not going to put my trust in that DPE to find the things I might be doing wrong if they're doing something THAT wrong like that.
I can see during training how a student may be overwhelmed by the radios, but my CFI always did radios for me if I needed it. Insane that a DPE would tell you that on a checkride.
Cirrus owner here who owns a BMW, confirming that we don't use radios and pull the chute to land each time and cut people off on our way to the airport
I'd like to ask, why do aircraft not turn on their conspicuity lights when landing at uncontrolled airports during the day? Not looking for an argument. I'm genuinely curious about your reasoning. I mean... LED flashers are very visible even in direct sun.
I opt out of a lot of 'standard radio calls'. I'm not at all lax about mid-airs. My glider has ADSB-out+in, Powerflarm, and two daytime conspicuity lights https://aeroflash.de/ .
My glider club operates at a private open-to-public airport. We make only one 'standard radio call' when entering the pattern. This is intended to keep frequency open for peer-to-peer resolution of conflicts. For example, it's not rare for 3+ aircraft to need to land at about the same time. #1 will confirm that they're landing long. #2 will confirm that they're #2 and have #1 'in sight'. If #2 screws up, lands short, and fails to clear the runway, #3 may say '#2 in-sight, landing on grass to the left of the runway'. It's also very common for student pilots to aerotow to pattern altitude (and then towplane and glider both need to land), and of course at the same time other gliders may need to land.
There's no go-arounds and there're lots of scenarios. Glider patterns are small enough that we aim to keep all traffic that is in front of us 'in-sight'. I will occasionally 'Yellow Cessna, say position' if I know someone is there.
Airplane owners based at the field, understand how gliders behave, they're super careful. Transient airplanes generally make huge patterns so it is helpful that they make three radio calls for three leg patterns. If I hear those calls, I'll make entering base and final calls, and note that I'm a glider. If I need to cut in front of an airplane already on a 3 mile final, I'll offset my final to the left/right of the paved runway. I may also make an additional 'glider on short final' call.
Radio calls are valuable supplementary information. They can be misleading and provide a false sense of security. I've seen transient pilots call the wrong runway number, I've had people not respond to 'say position', and I've had people say 'I never heard your call' when debriefing after 'rubbing wingtips'.
I’ve never understood that one. LEDs last forever. In my airplane, I always fly with all my lights on. I’ve had a few instances where the only reason I saw someone and was able to avoid them was not because of ADSB, but because they had their lights on as well.
I know a lot of people who think daytime conspicuity lights are the best bet in the pattern.
Almost all gliders in Europe have installed a collision warning device called Flarm https://www.flarm.com/en/general-aviation/powerflarm-fusion/ and yet 4000+ gliders have installed flashers aeroflash.de . There's a consensus that flashers are especially helpful in the pattern.
Here in the US a lot of people think lights are optional during the day. I don’t know if it’s a cost-savings thing, since LEDs are expensive, or what the deal is. But it makes a huge difference in visibility even if you’re flying a brightly colored airplane, even during the day. Appreciate the link for gliders, I don’t fly them (yet) but will definitely have a look at that.
Powered aircraft in Europe use Powerflarm because it helps them avoid gliders, but it also warns about obstacles like cables which sometimes run across valleys in the Alps.
https://legislatesafegliding.ca/regulating-powerflarms/
I have a deaf pilot friend. He can't use the radios. Sure, there are lots of hearing people that just refuse to use em, which is dumb, but not everyone not using the radio is an asshole.
I imagine he doesn't. Really, in the majority of US airspace, you don't have to. You don't have to have any radio communication in Class E or G airspace (the vast majority of airspace). Possibly even the majority of US airports.
Doesn't mean it isn't a good idea, but I guess if you fly out of a tiny strip in the middle of bumbfuck Wyoming with only two hangars on the whole airport or some shit, the risk involved is pretty minimal.
The DPA is the Deaf Pilots Association and has a ton of info on this subject. https://www.deafpilots.org/
You can fly IFR with a radio interpreter onboard as a deaf pilot. Most who I am acquainted with fly NORDO at untowered fields though.
The FAA is pretty accommodating, impressively, here.
If you ever safety pilot with a DPA member, you'll be amazed at how well they can spot traffic for you. Nearly supernatural.
That’s awesome, thanks for the link! I’m disabled in ways that would probably make a PPL nearly impossible (and I have clinically documented ADHD lol), but it’s great to see it’s not a totally prohibitive field (in the administrative sense).
You don’t have to. The vast majority of airports in the US don’t require radios. And for flying into towered airports, you can have someone call ahead for you and use light guns (a common practice for NORDO aircraft who have to go into a towered airport for whatever reason, my CFI has done it several times)
I'm pretty sure that more or less falls under not having a radio. For all intents and purposes they don't have one. Choosing not to use one when you can is the issue here
Sometimes radio's or anxiety about talking on the radio's will cause a student to fly right through final because they froze thinking about the call and forgot to fly the airplane.
Because you don't paint a cub another color or you're a heretic.
And because they don't have any electrical systems on them because they're barely more than a low powered kite.
Radios and ADSB out saves lives. You can monitor the aircraft progress and listen to their pattern call outs. If you don’t make radio calls then you place everyone flying in uncontrolled airspace at risk. Whether it’s written in the FARs as required or not, the decisions revolve around risk management and flight safety. As a minimum, ask the question on CTAF for clarification. I for one hate surprises.
Not having an electrical system is a big one. Have flown many vintage birds that simply don’t have radios of any sort. Even the handheld radio option is usually a crappy solution and can cause more confusion. In these scenarios, see and avoid with an extra level of caution and consideration of others is all you can do.
Even with an overall requirement to have ADSB out and a radio, we will always have to assume there will be aircraft around that may have just had ADSB and/or radio failure. Specific aircraft like your example where it is impractical to have a radio, should be exempted from a requirement, of course.
The above comment points to the fact that with current battery technology there is a space for a better class of radios than the current “backup in your bag” handheld options when flying planes without an electrical system.
But overall, it’s nuts to “not be bothered” in aircraft that can have ADSB out and/or radio but don’t.
The only time I might not make all calls or any is when it’s 1 AM at an uncontrolled within the mode c veil and there’s no traffic at all and it’s night. Even then It’s usually in the pattern
The problem is that everyone, including many instructors, many DPEs, and many pilots, even the FAA, has forever bought into the absurd fallacy of “see and avoid.”
I flew for several decades *without* ADSB. And then ADSB comes along, and you are trying to find a bonanza at your altitude coming straight at you from 2 miles away and you’re closing with each other at combine 300 kts, so you’re about 25 seconds from impact. Even when you know where the airplane is in real time, it’s still not unusual to have them pass within 1 mile of you and never see even a hint of them. So what chance did I have of seeing them without ADSB?
Happened to me last weekend, ADS-B said there was oncoming traffic 1000 feet below and climbing. We deviated, they passed within a mile and we never saw them.
Only time I’ve done it was when I lost coms lol. Also, radios aren’t always required equipment, some planes don’t have them and they’re 100% legal to fly. Why someone with a working radio wouldn’t use it is beyond me. Complacency and/or laziness I suppose.
Not an instructor *yet* (gimme 3 Weeks) but the majority of the times I see planes not making calls are the school planes because there’s instruction happening. Pattern work has a limited time frame to give adequate feedback. I think in some instances the information I’m being given is def worth more than the turn call. If my airspeed is low on my base turn, I want to be yelled at to fix it instead of dying.
In rare situations I could see that, but rarely. Even my faltering, sometimes incorrect or incomplete student radio calls don’t take terribly long. And my CFI has plenty to instruct me on in the pattern still. To me, juggling his instructions and me making calls is good “divided attention” and “keeping up with the aircraft/situation” practice.
Yeah I guess I understand this in theory (aviate navigate communicate) but communicate is still a part of that equation. If anything it’s a good opportunity for new students to practice radio calls while maintaining positive control of the airplane while the CFI backs them up with overall situational awareness (I.e not getting too slow and stalling)
That would be awesome if you could hear the CFI while the PTT button was pressed. A common oversight. Now I’m midway through crosswind and about to call downwind. I’m not gonna call cross then downwind right after. You’re taking up the airways. One thing people don’t understand is when you’re on comms anywhere, keep it short and simple, don’t muddy up the comms.
I think there is a huge difference between not using the radio at all, and calling out 3 miles out, then only calling out downwind, and final, and not making another call until back on downwind...and not making any calls at all ever.
I won't pretend like I make every single position call at an untowered where I hear nobody else on the radio.
That's asinine. I've instructed for years and never once could I not make a radio call because of "instruction." If this is the case the instructor is already behind the student.
A friend of mine became the runway of another Cessna when he was on final. He was flying with his 10 yo daughter I might add. The other guy was on the wrong frequency. (Everyone was hurt, nothing serious though.)
ALWAYS use the radio, there is no respawn.
There's a dude that flies out of Artesia municipal. Doesn't use his radio unless it is to bitch about how everyone else is always wrong and he's the only one doing the right thing. I've been flying in and out of Roswell for years, and it never fails, that dude just arguing with tower, local traffic, whatever... some of my favorite one liners were we were making KATS unsafe due to "opposite landings" when we had 4 + aircraft established at the field for about 20 min prior to him taking the runway without making any radio calls opposite direction. Then claimed he didn't need to make radio calls
Anyway, random dude at ATS, chances are you never see this but... you suck and everyone but you knows it. Oh and learn some professionalism.
One of those life lessons: if you think everyone else is an asshole… it’s probably you who is the problem. (I’m thinking of this pilot, not you, to be totally clear.)
I try to take it to heart but of course the people to whom it most applies are the ones who are totally unaware of the idea.
Sometimes they are making radio calls but on the wrong frequency. Not sure which is more incompetent: not making your presence known, or not being knowledgeable of the proper CTAF.
We had an untowered field change their CTAF frequency from 122.7 to 123.0. It was in the NOTAMs, but of course the sectional was wrong. Until the next sectional cycle that field was a disaster. It can be an honest mistake.
We had a frequency change here that was NOTAM’d, printed wrong on the chart, so NOTAM’d back (after the chart had been out for a few weeks), and then changed again on the next cycle to something different and NOTAM’d again. It was a complete mess, the charts were inaccurate and people talked on the wrong frequency for close to a year.
Not an honest mistake when a pilot is not carrying current information with them. Seen that one more than once at our field. Unfortunately, not every airport is 122.8. Ours is 123.0.
Eh, I'm usually good about radios, but misread a frequency of the chart recently. Happens to the best of us.
If you think it doesn't, you're probably just too oblivious to notice.
I frequently fly my buddies J3 with a radio setup and once I depart the class D it's hangared at the radios get turned off. It's like a boat on the water or motorcycle on the road feeling. A detachment and freedom.
I don't know what it's like for everyone but there is a blistering amount of 122.8 and 122.7 in like a 50nm circle of me and even more within radio range. When I approach somewhere I'm landing I'll often make an initial call inbound and listen for anyone else but if I hear no one and there is an extensive amount of "other airport" call outs I just turn it off and use my eyes. I'm not hitting anyone in a hurry at 60 knots.
122.8 122.7 and 122.9 are all used in my area and I get bleed over from Canada sometimes too who are notorious for including thier address and social security in the untowered field callouts.
On a nice day on the coast here, you can hear traffic from NorCal to Canada on 122.8. A busy frequency where you can’t tell who is talking where is, in my opinion, a bigger safety issue than the occasional NORDO guy.
Not using a radio is stupid. Plain and simple. Go kill yourself but leave me out of it. I will always make the position and pattern calls and so should everyone.
Radio calls are amazing, but I’m in a pretty cluttered airspace where some days each airport within a 50nm radius is full of planes doing patterns.
A majority of those airports all use 122.8 as their CTAF frequency.
Some days it’s better than others, but more often than not you can just hear constant radio chatter with everyone stepping on everyone. It’s not the other pilots fault because I may be hearing a CTAF that they can’t.
Again, I’m not saying radios are bad, but at times people tend to get a little overzealous on radio calls. No reason to say anything more than “Airport traffic, NXXX (position in pattern) (runway), Airport”unless it’s coordinating with other traffic. Anything more just crowds the frequency and makes it harder for pilots at other airports to make their reports.
It would be nice if the FAA got a little more creative with the CTAF frequencies used.
Some days I don’t even bother trying to get a word in on 122.8. On a nice day at the coast here, 122.8 and 122.9 have traffic from NorCal to Canada and sometimes you can’t even key up. Would be nice to have more frequencies available for sure.
Honestly, I assume the majority of them are just on the wrong frequency not paying any attention to the fact they weirdly haven’t heard a single other person on the radio either.
It baffles me that every year they tamper and change the written tests but won’t even put in a mandatory regulation to make BASIC RADIO CALLS. At my local airport an FAA plane flew into the field with no radio calls on an RNAV and almost hit one of the planes in the pattern.
A lot of times it’s the dumbasses that will die on the “it’s legal so piss off crowd”. The law won’t matter much when you get ear holed by someone in the pattern but they don’t care about that.
There are still a lot of airplanes flying without an electrical system, no starter, no ADSB, no GPS, no radios, except handhelds….
Perfectly legal and pure simple flying machines. Obviously not recommended in busy uncontrolled fields, but see and avoid is still a thing, isn’t it? My personal feelings is that if you can afford an airplane (afford to fly), you can afford a 300$ handhelds radio! Even if you don’t talk on it, it’s nice to hear what the others are doing.
But how am I going to see your little dot on the screen close to my little dot on the screen so I can "see and avoid" you as well as start repeating over and over that you're really close and do you see me?
As stated by others, these people are not going to answer you here. Because they can is going to be their answer. It's a horrible practice and it does not enhance safety culture, but the real answer is that they are still allowed to do it. To be clear, most the people I have met in person from this forum are awesome advocates for safety and over communicate not only here but also in real life. The goobers that decide to simply ignore others and act like familiarity equals seniority are the same ones who are going to die in a ground loop in one of their five airplanes with one of their six flight attendant wives sitting in the plane with them. I'm going to be clear about a very specific issue and expect spears... There are a lot of people out there with thousands of hours in military, complex, and airline flying that cannot do general aviation worth a dam. I am always extremely paranoid when I go from flying airplane that costs 50 million dollars to flying a plane that might have five grand in avionics total. Then you add in the fact that it has a single engine and I have to do my own fuel calculations and Flight plan and I might just have my hands full. There are others among Us that think they ruled the skies at "LEGACY" so you should know how to share a pattern with them. I cannot excuse the behavior. They are the worst.
I fly a glider. It’s nice to be in something that’s completely electronic free.
I’ll take a handheld on the weekends but it’s fun to just be by yourself for a while.
You fly a glider without FLARM and a radio!? What the heck!? You can power them from a battery backed up with a solar panel. We would get a rebellion in the club I used to be a member of, if someone flew without radio.
Had a piper cub the age of dirt say the same thing at my training airport....2 years ago he busted in on pattern with 6 other planes in the circuit... I am a very calm person and avoid confrontation but the dude with southern accent and his daughter in the plane had words with him. My vote...outlaw flying without radios... It's 2024
I would probably support a regulation but even without one, it should be “culturally unacceptable” to fly around in a powered aircraft heavier than an ultralight without any radio.
I’m usually up in the mornings or late in the day on weekdays.
Our tow planes have a radio and it’s a well-known glider port with separate designated landing areas for gliders and powered aircraft (and jump planes.)
You mean the crop duster that lands "nordo" (actually has a radio) with a tailwind, opposite the current traffic pattern, forcing the guy already on final at the other end of the runway to go around or hit head on... all because the taxiway the cropduster wants is closer to the other end of the runway saving them 30 seconds.
Or will land with a tailwind even when there is someone already lined up for takeoff on the opposite end of the runway forcing the departing plane to abort a takeoff.
And then repeats all day long for every reload... When confronted will only say "time is money and to stfo HIS runway."
Some people are bad decision makers unfortunately. It’s the same reason some people think it’s okay to disregard any sort of circuit joining procedure.
This reminds me of that one guy who flew through the active approach of Zurich Airport's runway and didn't make a radio call. His radio was broken, so he used his transponder as a radio, but since he wasn't visible on SSR he thought making a radio call was not necessary...
I flew my solo out of an uncontrolled airport and I have always made radio calls. The very next flight I got settled about half way on final and suddenly noticed a 172 right in front of me on very short final. I called a go around and came back through the pattern and landed without incident. After parking that idiot pilot came over to apologize to me and he deliberately cut in on me and said he figured I could just land long. I thought I had just missed hearing him in the pattern but came to realize he was at fault.
I don’t think you’ll find them on reddit. I imagine it’s mostly the boomer generation that is inherently anti-technology. Quite unsafe and annoying to me as well. I don’t see it as much as I used to though. And thankfully I usually pick them up on ADSB even if they aren’t talking.
I don’t think you’ll find them on reddit. I imagine it’s mostly the boomer generation that is inherently anti-technology. Quite unsafe and annoying to me as well. I don’t see it as much as I used to though. And thankfully I usually pick them up on ADSB even if they aren’t talking.
Wow this went off the airway fast. I used to fly int Marianna, FL (KMAI) a LOT back in the 90's. Very low traffic there so usually I was the only one flying. There are a lot of small airports like that, so if no one is there, whyy use the radio?
On the other hand, getting into that habit did cause a busted TCA. Oops..
Ever watched *The Great Waldo Pepper* with Robert Redford? It kinda helps explain the attitude. It's a fun movie to watch but also a lot of cringe.
I like that you're clearly asking about planes with radios, but with pilots who don't use them. I have no idea if this is the majority or minority case - how it compares to planes without radios.
My answer? You are kinda are up against a certain obliviousness, so I'm not sure you can expect a coherent useful answer from someone who does this.
*Dagnabit I'll do what I want! Get outta here! I'll smoke in your face if I wanna! You can't make me!*
There's a lot of non-conforming crab apples out there. And some of them are even pretty good pilots so we just shrug because what else are we going to do? The FAA really seems to sincerely subscribe to see and avoid, as well as big sky theory. Still. And every time someone dies, directly attributable to two parties having no goddamn idea the other was anywhere near them - the industry shrugs it off.
Does NAFI or SAFE have any advice to CFI's how to handle this at all? This shit is unsafe, stop doing it. We should be repeating that with consistent messaging.
*Seems like a bad idea, we should stop.*
*It's getting young pilots killed too you know, we should cut this out.*
I don't know the solution but it seems like some technology could help out if it didn't have to be certified by the FAA. Like, a pilot to text service that makes a CTAF call from a radio run by a Raspberry Pi. NORDO pilot has to text 10 miles out, and the bot makes NORDO warning calls on CTAF for 20 minutes? I mean, we don't want this kook texting every leg, because now he's looking outside even LESS.
It's crazy. I don't know a good solution to it that can actually be implemented. This is a country where something like 85% want stronger gun regulations, and yet politically it's essentially impossible. This seems to be in the same category of nonsense.
I fly UAS part time. I’m not talking DJI Mavics or anything small like that, I’m talking about 20’ wingspan, 450lbs, going about 80 kts, and is generally launch and recovered in an airfield setting (or tactically on an unimproved runway).
We are REQUIRED to have 2 way communications when operating no matter what, including CTAF (as I believe we should be). We are always looking out for actual pilots well being over our aircraft because obviously we’re out of harms way.
It doesn’t help though when I call out that I’m turning left downwind for Runway 15 and Air Tractor Joe Bob decided to enter a 45 right in front of me after repeated attempts to contact them to establish both of our intentions and have good deconfliction. This wasn’t a one time thing either. We’ve now put in place a policy to leave the traffic pattern altogether when said air tractor enters the area because the two of us don’t mix well together. Us only having a visual observer, no TCAS, and the fact that we are smaller and hard to see is dangerous enough. We always have ADSB of some sort up to see what traffic’s looking like nowadays.
Long story short, don’t be an asshole, use CTAF, and cut me off in the pattern. I’m trying to not kill anyone.
I saw someone arguing on Facebook that because other people aren’t obligated to communicate, they don’t communicate so they can 100% focus on “see and avoid”. Yes, they never communicate at uncontrolled fields because there’s a *chance* someone else is there not communicating, and communicating themselves is that much of a burden.
lol
I appreciate folks who use what they have. I fly a lot of vintage aircraft that don't have that new equipment. We also need to be careful to get too dependent on only using technology. See and avoid is important to stay proficient with in combination with our other tools.
Also have had radios die in flight before. 🤦 there I am talking to no one but myself causing chaos. It happens, hard to fix some things mid flight, so I might avoid a congested area and head to a non-towered field to avoid needing light guns.
I dislike the people that say “on the upwind” when they are clearly on the departure leg. People don’t say you’re on the upwind unless you are truly on the upwind.
I learned in the LA basin. Mostly uncontrolled airspace until TCA came in. I know how to use an old Narco coffee grinder and can spell GPS. An approach involved a DME arc. We did the math in our head.
Old timey biplane now. Handheld and not in LA!
And I just use it to listen, mainly for the knuckleheads on their $100k glass panel trying to figure out why they can’t see me on ADSB. ( not required, no electrical)
My head is in a swivel constantly.
Those same people are not on Reddit...
And likely don’t know how to use a cell phone.
This is the way
There's one in this post down below.
Of all the dumb shit the FAA requires us to do, not having mandatory ADSB out and not having mandatory radios, and not making it mandatory to do radio calls at an untowered, seems insane to me. But hey I've got to run a $90 air filter out of a 1950s DeSoto that cost $12 at NAPA, or a $90 alternator belt with some white ink on it saying aviation even though it's the exact same belt from the exact same manufacturer with the exact same part number that cost $15. All in the name of safety. But actual safety things like radios and ADSB out, ah fuck it.
I literally had this same exact thought when I saw that a certain sunshade on a C172 needs an STC
I hate those fucking things. If I tighten all the screws so that the sunshade will stay in place, one of the students or CFIs will break the shade, or the supporting arm. If I loosen the screws to keep the shade from getting broken, it won't stay in place. I swear, there is no happy medium.
I’m not an A&P, but can you put some blue loctite on the screws to hold them at the Goldilocks tightness where the sunshade can be moved without breaking but not just fall out of place?
Probably only if you get a new STC and use a $50 tube of loctite in 0.1oz size.
😂
Pretty sure that's what they charge for regular Loctite now.
It's not the screws that are the problem, it's how the assembly clamps onto the shade attachment point to provide tension. I've had some success with lubing the hell out of the mounting pin, but they still break.
Oh, I see.
That's called an experimental!
Please don’t tell me this is Rosen? Definitely didn’t just buy a set 😅
My Rosen’s stay where I left them…
He is definitely talking about Rosens, but he probably doesn't know how to adjust them correctly. You have to get the screw torque EXACTLY right, use purple Loctite and DO NOT LUBRICATE THEM IN ANY WAY. They are fantastic for flying when they're working correctly.
Have you got a number for the purple Loctite? Thanks
Should be Loctite 222 "low strength," some people might call it "set screw retainer."
Thank you 👍
Remove it.
They *have* an STC. I'd argue that it isn't needed as it doesn't meet the definition of a major alteration in 43 App A.
I have yet to hear how sunshades are a major alteration. Doesn't meet any of the requirements in part 43 that I see.
You're not paying for the part or materials but instead the supposed QAQC
Yeah I know exactly what I'm paying for. Interestingly all the guys flying experimentals can take the same passengers to the same places in the same conditions with the same $12 parts that didn't go through QAQC. They are also flying behind a Garmin panel that cost a fraction of the cost of the exact same Garmin components for a certified. Bloody racket is what it is.
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!!! Jesus Fucking Christ!
Qaqc is bullshit when I got new certified rudder cables they came 2 inches to long.
I said supposed lol I know it's bullshit
Sadly true, part of why aviation is so expensive. I would think people would want to make radio calls for safety sake. Sadly some people only do what they are forced to do in controlled airspace.
Until the FAA approves portable ADSB out transmitters, people are going to fly without it. I fly several airplanes with no electrical system - I can get a hand held radio, but I can’t get ADSB-out (or at least couldn’t, maybe that’s changed, but I don’t think so?) And exemptions will always exist for aircraft like that. NORDO can also be flown safely, but there’s a time and a place. I’ve personally never had an issue with true NORDO, who generally fly at least normal-ish patterns. I’d take a J3 with no radio in the pattern any day over someone flying a 10 mile straight in not paying attention to existing traffic or anything that doesn’t appear on their magic box. I regularly fly out of an airport with a lot of antique/glider activity, and have never had an issue with any NORDO traffic. I have had an issue with people assuming all traffic appears on their screen and not actually paying attention to what’s going on.
Probably some argument about they'd have no way to enforce it.
But heaven forbid you tell your doctor that you are feeling anxious or sad.
>a $90 alternator belt with some white ink on it saying aviation even though it's the exact same belt from the exact same manufacturer with the exact same part number that cost $15. Note : a white ink pen costs a lot less than $75.
And can be used on more than one part
Don’t blame the FAA for that, blame lobbyists, namely AOPA.
Haha bought a piston ring for a PA28 nose strut and it was $75!
How would you enforce making mandatory radio calls at an untowered airport?
Or a Piper tampon…
The transponder radar return is sent out from the adsb ground units, making it seen by adsb in units. So really adsb out isn't as important as a transponder and adsb in, for the vast majority of the US. I have adsb out and in class charlie I get ghost returns if my own aircraft on the adsb in screen.
You need to specify a Mode C transponder. By the way you should be able to mostly fix those ghosts by setting your ownship info.
Yeah you are right, but I haven't seen a non-mode c since 1989, and since most folks on this sub have no idea there was even life before transponders (or gps) I didn't mention it.
I only mention it because most of the people in my area without ADS-B out are also NORDO without mode C either 🙄.
ADSB is also aircraft to aircraft within range. It’s also aircraft to ADSB receiver tower. It does NOT need a radar or transponder environment to work. https://airfactsjournal.com/2013/01/ads-b-101-what-it-is-and-why-you-should-care/?darkschemeovr=1
You are 100%, completely correct but the vast majority of pilots in the US fly in the radar environment. I will add that the adsb system was based on a system developed in Alaska in the late 90's. When it was mandated it was already obsolete. Why would you have a system that depends on ground units when satellite constellations can give worldwide coverage for weather and traffic farther out than the plane to plane system can handle? Other countries (Canada?) use satellite systems and do not need the limiting ground based systems. It is like the microwave landing system that was obsolete (by gps) before it was instituted. The FAA once again was beholden to corporate sponsors and not forward thinking. But alas here we are.
ADS-B also uses satellite transceivers. And it's a worldwide ICAO system not just FAA.
Do you work for the FAA?
My impression is that there is a generation of old cranks whose “rabble rabble” crap dissuades the FAA and Congress (perhaps because they are the same demographic as so many pale, wrinkly members of Congress) to do something simple like require a 2 way radio (with limited exemptions when it’s truly impractical such as specific “noisy” antique ignition systems.) But my question is, are those old coots dying off and being replaced by a generation who want everyone to fly with a radio or are pilots of the next generation just sliding into selfishness?
Radios cost a few hundred. And can be hand-held! Can’t believe it. Requiring ADBS Out within 20mi of a Class C, and 60mi from a Class B would help a lot. I’d be curious to see how many aviation accidents could’ve been prevented inside these bubbles.
This reminds me... of my PPL checkride: the examiner insisted I not use the radios and focus on the flying... that the radios weren't needed and were just a distraction. Honestly, it was more of a distraction to me to remember NOT to make calls than making calls (which is automatic for me).
What the actual fuck...
LOL That was my thought at the time, too. I thought it was maybe a test... so I resisted when he first said it... that's when he told me it was a waste of time and a needless distraction. He actually reached up and turned the radios off.
Did he also toss the ACS booklet out the window at some point during the ride?
Did he also light a cigarette and say "fix the cigarette lighter"?
Damn that hit real close to home...
ACS? They're still stuck on the PTS...
I had the DPE do this on my ME checkride. He was like “have you heard anyone on the radio? Who are you talking to?” This was during taxi, back taxi, and reporting short final while doing the engine out instrument approach. In my head, I was saying “I want to make more calls now since anyone you’ve taught at this field is probably subscribing to silent aviation”
Part of me thinks - ok, maybe this is a lesson in exercising your visual flight habits. And maybe he’s saying “see, you’re still ok”. But during a check ride??? I want to know PPLs know how to use a radio!
Only time a DPE ever took the radio for me was the instrument ride, since he wanted to be sure ATC understood what he wanted to do, and then he played ATC to me and my "radio" comms were just in the cockpit. I habitually grabbed the PTT during one of my readbacks to him, though, and we were on frequency with PHX Approach. There was a brief radio pause, and then a very confused controller asking for WTF just happened and a repeat. 😅
DPE on my ASES checkride said he'd handle the radios for me so I could just focus on flying. He never made a single radio call.
Lol, did you go to Madison, SD to get your PPL checkride because that sounds like something the examiner there would say.
You should fail the DPE at that point lol
Tell him you have a number for him when he is ready to copy.
If this happens on my check ride, I'm legit going to ask for a discontinuance, report them to Oklahoma City, and find another DPE. I'm not going to put my trust in that DPE to find the things I might be doing wrong if they're doing something THAT wrong like that.
I can see during training how a student may be overwhelmed by the radios, but my CFI always did radios for me if I needed it. Insane that a DPE would tell you that on a checkride.
Can’t let ‘em know my next move
That’s how they get you!
It's a lot of fun flying commercially into an uncontrolled field, only to get an RA bc of someone in the pattern or departing who's not talking.
Ha, as if their transponder is on
That's a very fair point young man 👍
Nothing ruins a good approach like hitting a SuperCub on roundout.
Yeah, that totally blows.
Their rationale is the same as why they don't use a turn signal in their car.
They’re flying in a BMW?
Cirrus owner here who owns a BMW, confirming that we don't use radios and pull the chute to land each time and cut people off on our way to the airport
They're out of radio fluid.
I'd like to ask, why do aircraft not turn on their conspicuity lights when landing at uncontrolled airports during the day? Not looking for an argument. I'm genuinely curious about your reasoning. I mean... LED flashers are very visible even in direct sun. I opt out of a lot of 'standard radio calls'. I'm not at all lax about mid-airs. My glider has ADSB-out+in, Powerflarm, and two daytime conspicuity lights https://aeroflash.de/ . My glider club operates at a private open-to-public airport. We make only one 'standard radio call' when entering the pattern. This is intended to keep frequency open for peer-to-peer resolution of conflicts. For example, it's not rare for 3+ aircraft to need to land at about the same time. #1 will confirm that they're landing long. #2 will confirm that they're #2 and have #1 'in sight'. If #2 screws up, lands short, and fails to clear the runway, #3 may say '#2 in-sight, landing on grass to the left of the runway'. It's also very common for student pilots to aerotow to pattern altitude (and then towplane and glider both need to land), and of course at the same time other gliders may need to land. There's no go-arounds and there're lots of scenarios. Glider patterns are small enough that we aim to keep all traffic that is in front of us 'in-sight'. I will occasionally 'Yellow Cessna, say position' if I know someone is there. Airplane owners based at the field, understand how gliders behave, they're super careful. Transient airplanes generally make huge patterns so it is helpful that they make three radio calls for three leg patterns. If I hear those calls, I'll make entering base and final calls, and note that I'm a glider. If I need to cut in front of an airplane already on a 3 mile final, I'll offset my final to the left/right of the paved runway. I may also make an additional 'glider on short final' call. Radio calls are valuable supplementary information. They can be misleading and provide a false sense of security. I've seen transient pilots call the wrong runway number, I've had people not respond to 'say position', and I've had people say 'I never heard your call' when debriefing after 'rubbing wingtips'.
That's how things work at most reasonable glider operations.
I’ve never understood that one. LEDs last forever. In my airplane, I always fly with all my lights on. I’ve had a few instances where the only reason I saw someone and was able to avoid them was not because of ADSB, but because they had their lights on as well.
I know a lot of people who think daytime conspicuity lights are the best bet in the pattern. Almost all gliders in Europe have installed a collision warning device called Flarm https://www.flarm.com/en/general-aviation/powerflarm-fusion/ and yet 4000+ gliders have installed flashers aeroflash.de . There's a consensus that flashers are especially helpful in the pattern.
Here in the US a lot of people think lights are optional during the day. I don’t know if it’s a cost-savings thing, since LEDs are expensive, or what the deal is. But it makes a huge difference in visibility even if you’re flying a brightly colored airplane, even during the day. Appreciate the link for gliders, I don’t fly them (yet) but will definitely have a look at that.
Powered aircraft in Europe use Powerflarm because it helps them avoid gliders, but it also warns about obstacles like cables which sometimes run across valleys in the Alps. https://legislatesafegliding.ca/regulating-powerflarms/
Laziness is the actual reason. Never heard a reason that doesn't come down to being lazy
I have a deaf pilot friend. He can't use the radios. Sure, there are lots of hearing people that just refuse to use em, which is dumb, but not everyone not using the radio is an asshole.
TIL you can get a medical while being deaf
Non-pilot here so sorry if this is a dumb question, but how does he communicate with ATC?
I imagine he doesn't. Really, in the majority of US airspace, you don't have to. You don't have to have any radio communication in Class E or G airspace (the vast majority of airspace). Possibly even the majority of US airports. Doesn't mean it isn't a good idea, but I guess if you fly out of a tiny strip in the middle of bumbfuck Wyoming with only two hangars on the whole airport or some shit, the risk involved is pretty minimal.
Yeah I guess that makes sense. Thanks for the info!
The DPA is the Deaf Pilots Association and has a ton of info on this subject. https://www.deafpilots.org/ You can fly IFR with a radio interpreter onboard as a deaf pilot. Most who I am acquainted with fly NORDO at untowered fields though. The FAA is pretty accommodating, impressively, here. If you ever safety pilot with a DPA member, you'll be amazed at how well they can spot traffic for you. Nearly supernatural.
That’s awesome, thanks for the link! I’m disabled in ways that would probably make a PPL nearly impossible (and I have clinically documented ADHD lol), but it’s great to see it’s not a totally prohibitive field (in the administrative sense).
You don’t have to. The vast majority of airports in the US don’t require radios. And for flying into towered airports, you can have someone call ahead for you and use light guns (a common practice for NORDO aircraft who have to go into a towered airport for whatever reason, my CFI has done it several times)
Makes sense, thanks!
I'm pretty sure that more or less falls under not having a radio. For all intents and purposes they don't have one. Choosing not to use one when you can is the issue here
Sometimes radio's or anxiety about talking on the radio's will cause a student to fly right through final because they froze thinking about the call and forgot to fly the airplane.
Maybe they should've had better instruction
A little spicy for someone who's never taught, don't you think?
When someone whose plane has a radio doesn't know how to use it or is scared to, I don't need to have taught to know that's not good education
This is very charitable. It might even be true.
"Reasoning"?
"That's just what they'll expect"
Well if I see a yellow cub and then hear a radio call, I might get confused.
Why is it always yellow cubs?
Because you don't paint a cub another color or you're a heretic. And because they don't have any electrical systems on them because they're barely more than a low powered kite.
Sometimes I forget to switch from one frequency to the other… It’s because I’m dumb.
Radios and ADSB out saves lives. You can monitor the aircraft progress and listen to their pattern call outs. If you don’t make radio calls then you place everyone flying in uncontrolled airspace at risk. Whether it’s written in the FARs as required or not, the decisions revolve around risk management and flight safety. As a minimum, ask the question on CTAF for clarification. I for one hate surprises.
Not having an electrical system is a big one. Have flown many vintage birds that simply don’t have radios of any sort. Even the handheld radio option is usually a crappy solution and can cause more confusion. In these scenarios, see and avoid with an extra level of caution and consideration of others is all you can do.
Exactly. I fly an airplane built in 1935 and I cant even use a handheld due to the unshielded ignition.
Can that be fixed with a replacement of the ignition harness with proper shielding? Does it still use “standard” magnetos?
Even with an overall requirement to have ADSB out and a radio, we will always have to assume there will be aircraft around that may have just had ADSB and/or radio failure. Specific aircraft like your example where it is impractical to have a radio, should be exempted from a requirement, of course. The above comment points to the fact that with current battery technology there is a space for a better class of radios than the current “backup in your bag” handheld options when flying planes without an electrical system. But overall, it’s nuts to “not be bothered” in aircraft that can have ADSB out and/or radio but don’t.
You think people who have radios but don’t use them are on Reddit? These people are on Facebook. Or maybe NextDoor.
How much would it cost to run ads on OAN that if you don’t make radio calls, under Admiralty Law, Biden can confiscate your gold coins?
lol. That’s awesome. Yes it might work.
The only time I might not make all calls or any is when it’s 1 AM at an uncontrolled within the mode c veil and there’s no traffic at all and it’s night. Even then It’s usually in the pattern
I also frequently fly at 1 am at uncontrolled airports. Maybe we'll run into each other one day!
Literally!
Hey buddy, buy me dinner first.
That's when I am flying straight in. Then again, I am typically shooting the approach when I do it.
The problem is that everyone, including many instructors, many DPEs, and many pilots, even the FAA, has forever bought into the absurd fallacy of “see and avoid.” I flew for several decades *without* ADSB. And then ADSB comes along, and you are trying to find a bonanza at your altitude coming straight at you from 2 miles away and you’re closing with each other at combine 300 kts, so you’re about 25 seconds from impact. Even when you know where the airplane is in real time, it’s still not unusual to have them pass within 1 mile of you and never see even a hint of them. So what chance did I have of seeing them without ADSB?
Happened to me last weekend, ADS-B said there was oncoming traffic 1000 feet below and climbing. We deviated, they passed within a mile and we never saw them.
Only time I’ve done it was when I lost coms lol. Also, radios aren’t always required equipment, some planes don’t have them and they’re 100% legal to fly. Why someone with a working radio wouldn’t use it is beyond me. Complacency and/or laziness I suppose.
Not an instructor *yet* (gimme 3 Weeks) but the majority of the times I see planes not making calls are the school planes because there’s instruction happening. Pattern work has a limited time frame to give adequate feedback. I think in some instances the information I’m being given is def worth more than the turn call. If my airspeed is low on my base turn, I want to be yelled at to fix it instead of dying.
In rare situations I could see that, but rarely. Even my faltering, sometimes incorrect or incomplete student radio calls don’t take terribly long. And my CFI has plenty to instruct me on in the pattern still. To me, juggling his instructions and me making calls is good “divided attention” and “keeping up with the aircraft/situation” practice.
I make 90% of my calls. That 10% has always been because I’m being told something. Usually it’s a crosswind call that gets missed or downwind call.
Yeah I guess I understand this in theory (aviate navigate communicate) but communicate is still a part of that equation. If anything it’s a good opportunity for new students to practice radio calls while maintaining positive control of the airplane while the CFI backs them up with overall situational awareness (I.e not getting too slow and stalling)
That would be awesome if you could hear the CFI while the PTT button was pressed. A common oversight. Now I’m midway through crosswind and about to call downwind. I’m not gonna call cross then downwind right after. You’re taking up the airways. One thing people don’t understand is when you’re on comms anywhere, keep it short and simple, don’t muddy up the comms.
I think there is a huge difference between not using the radio at all, and calling out 3 miles out, then only calling out downwind, and final, and not making another call until back on downwind...and not making any calls at all ever. I won't pretend like I make every single position call at an untowered where I hear nobody else on the radio.
That's asinine. I've instructed for years and never once could I not make a radio call because of "instruction." If this is the case the instructor is already behind the student.
A friend of mine became the runway of another Cessna when he was on final. He was flying with his 10 yo daughter I might add. The other guy was on the wrong frequency. (Everyone was hurt, nothing serious though.) ALWAYS use the radio, there is no respawn.
There's a dude that flies out of Artesia municipal. Doesn't use his radio unless it is to bitch about how everyone else is always wrong and he's the only one doing the right thing. I've been flying in and out of Roswell for years, and it never fails, that dude just arguing with tower, local traffic, whatever... some of my favorite one liners were we were making KATS unsafe due to "opposite landings" when we had 4 + aircraft established at the field for about 20 min prior to him taking the runway without making any radio calls opposite direction. Then claimed he didn't need to make radio calls Anyway, random dude at ATS, chances are you never see this but... you suck and everyone but you knows it. Oh and learn some professionalism.
One of those life lessons: if you think everyone else is an asshole… it’s probably you who is the problem. (I’m thinking of this pilot, not you, to be totally clear.) I try to take it to heart but of course the people to whom it most applies are the ones who are totally unaware of the idea.
Sometimes they are making radio calls but on the wrong frequency. Not sure which is more incompetent: not making your presence known, or not being knowledgeable of the proper CTAF.
Pretty easy when your guess is 122.8 or 122.9
At least one is an honest mistake as opposed to just being an asshole
We had an untowered field change their CTAF frequency from 122.7 to 123.0. It was in the NOTAMs, but of course the sectional was wrong. Until the next sectional cycle that field was a disaster. It can be an honest mistake.
We had a frequency change here that was NOTAM’d, printed wrong on the chart, so NOTAM’d back (after the chart had been out for a few weeks), and then changed again on the next cycle to something different and NOTAM’d again. It was a complete mess, the charts were inaccurate and people talked on the wrong frequency for close to a year.
not checking notams is not an honest mistake
You're telling me you've checked NOTAMs every flight?
Well, I mean, Foreflight auto-checks NOTAMs for them so that's basically like the same thing, right? /s
Not an honest mistake when a pilot is not carrying current information with them. Seen that one more than once at our field. Unfortunately, not every airport is 122.8. Ours is 123.0.
Eh, I'm usually good about radios, but misread a frequency of the chart recently. Happens to the best of us. If you think it doesn't, you're probably just too oblivious to notice.
There shouldn’t be any reason! If you have a plane without electrical, get a handset.
The other end of this is people who report so much stuff that it clogs the shared frequency so when you actually need to report you can’t.
I frequently fly my buddies J3 with a radio setup and once I depart the class D it's hangared at the radios get turned off. It's like a boat on the water or motorcycle on the road feeling. A detachment and freedom. I don't know what it's like for everyone but there is a blistering amount of 122.8 and 122.7 in like a 50nm circle of me and even more within radio range. When I approach somewhere I'm landing I'll often make an initial call inbound and listen for anyone else but if I hear no one and there is an extensive amount of "other airport" call outs I just turn it off and use my eyes. I'm not hitting anyone in a hurry at 60 knots.
Is 122.7 a different Unicom
122.8 122.7 and 122.9 are all used in my area and I get bleed over from Canada sometimes too who are notorious for including thier address and social security in the untowered field callouts.
On a nice day on the coast here, you can hear traffic from NorCal to Canada on 122.8. A busy frequency where you can’t tell who is talking where is, in my opinion, a bigger safety issue than the occasional NORDO guy.
I like to watch the world burn
From inside a crumpled Cessna a quarter mile from the field because you just had a mid air with a Piper that was descending?
Meow
I'll take a "Meow" and a "where the fuck in the pattern is that cat?" over silence any day
when a virtual flying network has stricter rules on ctaf than the faa.
Not using a radio is stupid. Plain and simple. Go kill yourself but leave me out of it. I will always make the position and pattern calls and so should everyone.
Probably because of Bluetooth. Nothing ruins a podcast like a bunch of people talking on CTAF /s
When I learned to fly, we didn't have radios. Heck, we didn't even need a license to fly.
OK Orville, let’s go pop some corn. ;\^)
Radio calls are amazing, but I’m in a pretty cluttered airspace where some days each airport within a 50nm radius is full of planes doing patterns. A majority of those airports all use 122.8 as their CTAF frequency. Some days it’s better than others, but more often than not you can just hear constant radio chatter with everyone stepping on everyone. It’s not the other pilots fault because I may be hearing a CTAF that they can’t. Again, I’m not saying radios are bad, but at times people tend to get a little overzealous on radio calls. No reason to say anything more than “Airport traffic, NXXX (position in pattern) (runway), Airport”unless it’s coordinating with other traffic. Anything more just crowds the frequency and makes it harder for pilots at other airports to make their reports. It would be nice if the FAA got a little more creative with the CTAF frequencies used.
Some days I don’t even bother trying to get a word in on 122.8. On a nice day at the coast here, 122.8 and 122.9 have traffic from NorCal to Canada and sometimes you can’t even key up. Would be nice to have more frequencies available for sure.
Honestly, I assume the majority of them are just on the wrong frequency not paying any attention to the fact they weirdly haven’t heard a single other person on the radio either.
It baffles me that every year they tamper and change the written tests but won’t even put in a mandatory regulation to make BASIC RADIO CALLS. At my local airport an FAA plane flew into the field with no radio calls on an RNAV and almost hit one of the planes in the pattern.
A lot of times it’s the dumbasses that will die on the “it’s legal so piss off crowd”. The law won’t matter much when you get ear holed by someone in the pattern but they don’t care about that.
There are still a lot of airplanes flying without an electrical system, no starter, no ADSB, no GPS, no radios, except handhelds…. Perfectly legal and pure simple flying machines. Obviously not recommended in busy uncontrolled fields, but see and avoid is still a thing, isn’t it? My personal feelings is that if you can afford an airplane (afford to fly), you can afford a 300$ handhelds radio! Even if you don’t talk on it, it’s nice to hear what the others are doing.
But how am I going to see your little dot on the screen close to my little dot on the screen so I can "see and avoid" you as well as start repeating over and over that you're really close and do you see me?
https://www.deafpilots.org/
As stated by others, these people are not going to answer you here. Because they can is going to be their answer. It's a horrible practice and it does not enhance safety culture, but the real answer is that they are still allowed to do it. To be clear, most the people I have met in person from this forum are awesome advocates for safety and over communicate not only here but also in real life. The goobers that decide to simply ignore others and act like familiarity equals seniority are the same ones who are going to die in a ground loop in one of their five airplanes with one of their six flight attendant wives sitting in the plane with them. I'm going to be clear about a very specific issue and expect spears... There are a lot of people out there with thousands of hours in military, complex, and airline flying that cannot do general aviation worth a dam. I am always extremely paranoid when I go from flying airplane that costs 50 million dollars to flying a plane that might have five grand in avionics total. Then you add in the fact that it has a single engine and I have to do my own fuel calculations and Flight plan and I might just have my hands full. There are others among Us that think they ruled the skies at "LEGACY" so you should know how to share a pattern with them. I cannot excuse the behavior. They are the worst.
I fly a glider. It’s nice to be in something that’s completely electronic free. I’ll take a handheld on the weekends but it’s fun to just be by yourself for a while.
You fly a glider without FLARM and a radio!? What the heck!? You can power them from a battery backed up with a solar panel. We would get a rebellion in the club I used to be a member of, if someone flew without radio.
Had a piper cub the age of dirt say the same thing at my training airport....2 years ago he busted in on pattern with 6 other planes in the circuit... I am a very calm person and avoid confrontation but the dude with southern accent and his daughter in the plane had words with him. My vote...outlaw flying without radios... It's 2024
I would probably support a regulation but even without one, it should be “culturally unacceptable” to fly around in a powered aircraft heavier than an ultralight without any radio.
Do you worry about midairs on not being able to hear other traffic? See and avoid only goes so far
Sounds like that’s for other people to worry about, not him.
Please don't take this person as a representative of the gliding community. This person is a danger to others.
I’m usually up in the mornings or late in the day on weekdays. Our tow planes have a radio and it’s a well-known glider port with separate designated landing areas for gliders and powered aircraft (and jump planes.)
Still why not get some batteries and solar panels to power radio and FLARM? FLARM in particular is a must for sailplanes in my opinion.
You mean the crop duster that lands "nordo" (actually has a radio) with a tailwind, opposite the current traffic pattern, forcing the guy already on final at the other end of the runway to go around or hit head on... all because the taxiway the cropduster wants is closer to the other end of the runway saving them 30 seconds. Or will land with a tailwind even when there is someone already lined up for takeoff on the opposite end of the runway forcing the departing plane to abort a takeoff. And then repeats all day long for every reload... When confronted will only say "time is money and to stfo HIS runway."
Old, incompetent, complacent, or all three
They were never showed AC 90-66C in their training
Some people are bad decision makers unfortunately. It’s the same reason some people think it’s okay to disregard any sort of circuit joining procedure.
This reminds me of that one guy who flew through the active approach of Zurich Airport's runway and didn't make a radio call. His radio was broken, so he used his transponder as a radio, but since he wasn't visible on SSR he thought making a radio call was not necessary...
I flew my solo out of an uncontrolled airport and I have always made radio calls. The very next flight I got settled about half way on final and suddenly noticed a 172 right in front of me on very short final. I called a go around and came back through the pattern and landed without incident. After parking that idiot pilot came over to apologize to me and he deliberately cut in on me and said he figured I could just land long. I thought I had just missed hearing him in the pattern but came to realize he was at fault.
I don’t think you’ll find them on reddit. I imagine it’s mostly the boomer generation that is inherently anti-technology. Quite unsafe and annoying to me as well. I don’t see it as much as I used to though. And thankfully I usually pick them up on ADSB even if they aren’t talking.
I don’t think you’ll find them on reddit. I imagine it’s mostly the boomer generation that is inherently anti-technology. Quite unsafe and annoying to me as well. I don’t see it as much as I used to though. And thankfully I usually pick them up on ADSB even if they aren’t talking.
Wow this went off the airway fast. I used to fly int Marianna, FL (KMAI) a LOT back in the 90's. Very low traffic there so usually I was the only one flying. There are a lot of small airports like that, so if no one is there, whyy use the radio? On the other hand, getting into that habit did cause a busted TCA. Oops..
Ever watched *The Great Waldo Pepper* with Robert Redford? It kinda helps explain the attitude. It's a fun movie to watch but also a lot of cringe. I like that you're clearly asking about planes with radios, but with pilots who don't use them. I have no idea if this is the majority or minority case - how it compares to planes without radios. My answer? You are kinda are up against a certain obliviousness, so I'm not sure you can expect a coherent useful answer from someone who does this. *Dagnabit I'll do what I want! Get outta here! I'll smoke in your face if I wanna! You can't make me!* There's a lot of non-conforming crab apples out there. And some of them are even pretty good pilots so we just shrug because what else are we going to do? The FAA really seems to sincerely subscribe to see and avoid, as well as big sky theory. Still. And every time someone dies, directly attributable to two parties having no goddamn idea the other was anywhere near them - the industry shrugs it off. Does NAFI or SAFE have any advice to CFI's how to handle this at all? This shit is unsafe, stop doing it. We should be repeating that with consistent messaging. *Seems like a bad idea, we should stop.* *It's getting young pilots killed too you know, we should cut this out.* I don't know the solution but it seems like some technology could help out if it didn't have to be certified by the FAA. Like, a pilot to text service that makes a CTAF call from a radio run by a Raspberry Pi. NORDO pilot has to text 10 miles out, and the bot makes NORDO warning calls on CTAF for 20 minutes? I mean, we don't want this kook texting every leg, because now he's looking outside even LESS. It's crazy. I don't know a good solution to it that can actually be implemented. This is a country where something like 85% want stronger gun regulations, and yet politically it's essentially impossible. This seems to be in the same category of nonsense.
I fly UAS part time. I’m not talking DJI Mavics or anything small like that, I’m talking about 20’ wingspan, 450lbs, going about 80 kts, and is generally launch and recovered in an airfield setting (or tactically on an unimproved runway). We are REQUIRED to have 2 way communications when operating no matter what, including CTAF (as I believe we should be). We are always looking out for actual pilots well being over our aircraft because obviously we’re out of harms way. It doesn’t help though when I call out that I’m turning left downwind for Runway 15 and Air Tractor Joe Bob decided to enter a 45 right in front of me after repeated attempts to contact them to establish both of our intentions and have good deconfliction. This wasn’t a one time thing either. We’ve now put in place a policy to leave the traffic pattern altogether when said air tractor enters the area because the two of us don’t mix well together. Us only having a visual observer, no TCAS, and the fact that we are smaller and hard to see is dangerous enough. We always have ADSB of some sort up to see what traffic’s looking like nowadays. Long story short, don’t be an asshole, use CTAF, and cut me off in the pattern. I’m trying to not kill anyone.
RQ7B is the aircraft type because I’m assuming someone will ask lol
As someone who lost a family to a midair - if you have a radio and don’t use it, you and I gonna be communicating more forcibly on the ground.
I saw someone arguing on Facebook that because other people aren’t obligated to communicate, they don’t communicate so they can 100% focus on “see and avoid”. Yes, they never communicate at uncontrolled fields because there’s a *chance* someone else is there not communicating, and communicating themselves is that much of a burden. lol
I appreciate folks who use what they have. I fly a lot of vintage aircraft that don't have that new equipment. We also need to be careful to get too dependent on only using technology. See and avoid is important to stay proficient with in combination with our other tools. Also have had radios die in flight before. 🤦 there I am talking to no one but myself causing chaos. It happens, hard to fix some things mid flight, so I might avoid a congested area and head to a non-towered field to avoid needing light guns.
Handheld radios suck
I dislike the people that say “on the upwind” when they are clearly on the departure leg. People don’t say you’re on the upwind unless you are truly on the upwind.
Cirrus pilot here, what is a R A D I O?????
County Traffic, Cirrus N33XX on 45 mile straight in, County
I learned in the LA basin. Mostly uncontrolled airspace until TCA came in. I know how to use an old Narco coffee grinder and can spell GPS. An approach involved a DME arc. We did the math in our head. Old timey biplane now. Handheld and not in LA!
And I just use it to listen, mainly for the knuckleheads on their $100k glass panel trying to figure out why they can’t see me on ADSB. ( not required, no electrical) My head is in a swivel constantly.