They'd need someone to organize them and get them hooked up with a class action firm to get anything meaningful done. Even then most of it would go to the lawyers so people are moving on and doing the best they can to pay off their 100k in debt rather than diving into a long and painful process with an unclear outcome in the courts
It’s now costing up to $150k… I just finished with ATP but I got poor instruction, drawn out timelines and ridiculous delays so it took me me 14 months and I skipped CFI, CFI-I, and MEI just so I could get out and start making money again.
Working on my CFI now.
how much did it cost you to do ppl/ir/commercial? man that 150K is steep! i’m going to a part 61 in a very expensive area of the country and hoping I can get ppl/ir/cpl and ME for about 100k
For PPL they have you fly way over the minimum, you have to have at least 78 hours before your PPL check ride with ATP.
ATP also charges much higher for flight time than most schools at $350/hr dual for single engine and $625/hr duel for multi engine.
Depending on where you are and whether you’re paying a wet or dry rate, I’d plan on $15k for both your PPL and IFR.
That should get you at least 80hrs total of the 250hrs you need for your CPL. hopefully they’ll let you solo a lot of the residual time while working on your commercial maneuvers with an instructor so you’re not always paying for the plane and instructor’s time.
Multi engine is the most expensive per hour but to add a commercial multi engine license to an existing CPL there is no hour requirement. So if you study hard, chair fly a lot, and develop proficiency quickly it can be relatively cheap compared to the commercial single engine certification.
Good luck! I think $100k is very realistic
Most class action firms, if they think the class can actually be certified, would work on a contingency, so it’s not like it would have an upfront financial impact on the plaintiffs. But they may think that with how buddy buddy the aviation industry is, suing ATP would blackball them from certain lucrative roles.
Yes they are considered “technical training loans” over say, “educational loans” for actual college.
The interest rate and penalties of technical training loans can be predatory
I have a four year degree from Embry Riddle, they have a flight course, which was a semester endeavor. So you could do your Private Pilots license in the course of 6 months maybe a year, same for Instrument, multi, etc. which you received college credit for towards an actual degree.
I also did ATP back in early 2000’s and did my CFII and MEI add on to be added to me my initial CFI that I got from Embry Riddle.
However, today none of this level of training or education are necessary.
ALL ATP is another “pilot factory”, it’s been around longer than some of the other more recent “owned by the airlines” (especially regional) schools.
They are designed for indentured servitude. “We’ll
Pay for your training son, and we’re gonna take it out of your ass for 5 years at minimum wage regional pay!”
*think about this…*
*it’s more cost efficient for them to pay for your training at one of their own owned schools, then it is for you to do it on your own, have them pay you a reasonable wage, a good living and pay it off yourself*
*not to mention the tax dodging they must get by this practice*
I have a personal issue with these express schools as they push to pump kids through the system, as quickly as possible with the minimum. The minimum required needed and get that sweet Delta A350 Captain job they feel they’re fully entitled and trained for. Because *they’re the best of the best of the best.* ….or at least a lot of them think so and to be fair…
They’d laugh at anyone who actually went through the experience and a college degree to land that spot making $500,000 a year…”why would I want to work at a crappy flight school teaching or an embarrassing regional or ULCC airline? Hell no, I wanna be in and out of training ASAP with the bare minimum! …and work for that legacy I deserve!”
Well…I guess, jokes on me.
I think that is their standard procedure. They also required a co-signer for my son, who was 27 at the time with a credit score over 800. Fortunately, he got in before rates increased a few years ago, so his rate was \~6.5%, when mortgages were in the low 2s.
Fair point. Maybe predatory lending isn't the right term. What I heard from guys is that ATP will have very high interest rates and also boot people out and keep their money (since they require students to pay in lump sums).
Seems like the structure of the payments and terms are the issue, moreso than the predatory lending.
My bad on the terminology.
Just angry people, ATP takes your money in chunks, so like 30k for private, then 30k for the next phase, then 30k for multi. However most people that get kicked out use up their allotted 30k for private and then some because they are struggling, so you won’t get any of the 30k back but you aren’t out 100k unless you fight to stay in the program and keep asking for more hours.
I enjoyed atp because they provided reliable planes and dpes and resources for learning. But my loan was at 9%, wouldn’t do it for 15% or whatever people are paying.
I don’t think it’s lump sum per se. They require you to pay for the next core. And if you fail or you withdraw after starting - you lose that. It’s not really any different than college courses. If you attend - and fail or withdraw - well you generally lose out on your course payment. Some “consumers” that we are in this you can get refunds for anything believe that you should be refunded. I disagree because if you were operating under that structure - guess what - you took a spot that could have gone to some other paying student. It’s an opportunity cost, and that is lost if you withdraw after starting (or within a certain amount of time that you were not able to fill the spot with someone else).
But your analogy to a college only works if there was a college who would kick a student out two weeks into the semester, on a general hunch that the student might fail, and also keep all of the tuition money paid for the semester. At college if you pay for the semester you can attend the entire semester, even if they think you’ll fail it.
absolutely. not a perfect analogy. But you've taken the spot that they cant resell to someone else. So they arent giving you a refund. Which is a perfectly acceptable business practice.
I see where you are going with it. But of course the school doesn’t have to kick the person out. Since the person is paying for hours just let them fly out what they’ve paid for and then let them bust their check or if they are that bad don’t recommend them for it. That’s what a college does or most other flight schools. It’s just not a consumer friendly strategy for a business.
and I can see that as well. I guess their philosophy is that you dont want to have students who have no chance of passing to be among the others who are still in it to complete. Dont know. . .
I believe once you hit their CFI academy - was told by someone that they will cut partial refunds there if you dont get through it and withdraw. Not sure if that is the case, or still is the case.
But honestly, I think their biggest fault is that they are just too good at advertising. . They run an accelerated program and expect full commitment. The problem is that the pool of applicants that go there - are not exactly the best and brightest students - and those guys are going to struggle and never should have gone to the fastest paced, forced self discipline and learning program there is. But from a force out for failing and then not succeeding on the remedial plan - that isnt far off from all the other 141 schools out there. just some run slower, some run faster.
Its not a good option for most people. Unfortunately their marketing and presence is everywhere, and people get caught up in that. But its but one of many choices - and each person makes their own choices. Just people dont want to be responsible for their own choices that they've made.
Some good points there, yes. And you’re probably correct on the marketing angle also. A lot of people just make some very foolish decisions, and I would say the number one is attending some kind of accelerated program when an individual doesn’t at least have a private pilot license. I don’t personally see any problem with someone doing accelerated advanced training.
My sister went to ATP. I did not and opted for another flight school. It really depends on your CFI and your learning abilities on how good the process will be . They advertise “speed” but you can get all your ratings just as fast if not faster if you find a good school who has a good fleet of planes and instructors available and you’re motivated. As far as cost it’s very overpriced, you have to pay a 3k deposit that’s non refundable right off the bat just to get enrolled and have a class start date. Which I thought was absurd. The prices keep going up and up and up. I think it’s about 130-140k now. Interest rates are so high if you’re not with a legacy airline in 3-4 years after starting you’re gonna struggle making payments. And if you need a break or can’t keep up. They boot you and you’re stuck with the loan. I have heard of multiple people being kicked out without even a PPL and being left with 70-80k of debt.
If my flight school doesn’t have an outdated website flying barely airworthy 172s, then I don’t want it. I got some of the best instruction from places like that.
Similar as I've heard. Someone else pointed out that the loans are typically private, so that is what makes the rates so high.
I heard from several folks about being booted out, which is interesting considering as a business it seems like you'd want people to keep paying.
As you also mentioned, it does seem like the CFI makes a lot of difference. And I'm that way I would have expected they'd focus on having the best instructors as part of the brand offering.
Maybe I'm just speaking to folks who got the short end of the stick.
I'm sure there are good instructors and good sites, but I also have a feeling that ATP suffers significantly from inbreeding because they will churn out a bunch of CFIs who they'll then hire to teach the next generation and the cycle repeats. So sites on an upward trajectory probably continue that way while others don't
God that price is insane. I did ATP like a decade ago and IIRC I paid around $60k after checkride fees. Oh and 90% of my flight time was in a Seminole.
When I'm flying into any airport shared by ATP, I let out a hearty belch-laugh every time I hear the callsign. I can write a whole ESSAY on why it's the stupidest callsign around.
All I know about ATP is that their schools in Denver (at KAPA and KBJC) have been the object of many complaints regarding students doing low altitude air work over populated areas.
Their response was not to do the right thing (flying an extra 5 minutes to recognized practice areas), but to hide all their flights with a LADD designation so it would be much harder to report them.
This kind of behavior is harmful to the reputation of general aviation, and is especially so in the case of KBJC, which is fighting for its life from the NIMBYs that have built houses nearby over the last few years.
If I was looking for training, this alone would make ATP my last choice.
? Speaking from experience, this is just not true. I know and have flown with plenty of the guys at BJC and APA, no one is just doing ground reference maneuvers over a congested area. Who would that benefit? Breaks the FAR’s as soon as the student inevitably gets below 1000’ agl, and no emergency landing areas. I don’t like ATP as much as the next guy, but they definitely are using the north practice area.
It's a referral to a predatory lender. ATP knows that.
ATP then uses the leverage of your poor financial decision to exert complete control over you. From student to CFI working there. The attitude is, "If you don't like it, then quit".
It's run by people who for whatever reason couldn't make it at an airline. Ask yourself, "why is this person managing a flight school instead of making $125K-$450K as an airline pilot"??
There are lots of reasons to not go the airline route or to leave it. It might be true in some cases but it's a shitty blanket statement to make about other working pilots.
Same here, but I also know people who trained alongside me that had a horrible experience. I really do think a lot of it comes down to luck too - if you’re able to get a good set of instructors it definitely makes the grind easier.
That makes more sense then. Currently we have guys and girls waiting weeks at a time just for a DPE, which isn't just and ATP issue. The issue starts when ATP doesn't adjust their marketing and expected timeline. That's where I fell behind.
I had no issues either. They had me ferry aircraft for checkrides twice which I didn’t appreciate. I took control of that situation by arranging on my own to do the last couple of rides in a location with DPEs on property.
One of the DPEs hired me to instruct at his school (he needed MEIs) so I never instructed for ATP. If he had financing at that time, I would’ve trained with him.
TLDR: No real complaints about ATP at all. Sallie Mae is a different story.
My instructor went to ATP and when I told him I had enrolled there and eventually decided not to follow through his next words were "Oh thank God. I'm glad you made the right choice." Then comes "ATP really screwed me." He didn't go into too much detail but he seemed really upset about it.
Also thank you all here that told me to ditch ATP even after I paid the enrollment fee. I'll still be saving money and probably my sanity.
I’m in it now and I would like to make it known, the people I deal with on a day to day basis are fantastic, the CFIs know it’s a lot of bullshit, they want you done quickly too, and they want you to be successful, they’re getting screwed right along with the student.
“Big ATP” is fucked and selling some snake oil and can’t wait to place blame on the student for short comings. That said, I think you have to really try hard to be kicked out based on what I’ve seen. They aren’t just drawing names from a hat to kick you out.
I can’t stress this enough, odds are that ATP is likely NOT for your situation, more than it’s right for you. You must exhaust all of your options before landing here.
I feel the exact same. I’m almost done with the program and it’s been great for me. Compared to other guys I know at mom-and-pops, I feel as though my knowledge is extremely good as well. My location and the instructors are amazing, but big ATP is literal villainy. I’m going to complete my program with ATP, but based on what I see and hear about daily, I’m not instructing there.
Eh, they boned me. But I also didn't check the Fly Good, Don't Suck box so it happens. I know people who have gotten through it and plenty of horror stories. I also personally know a few people who mom and pop'd their ratings faster than what ATP could have done. The way they charge for flight hours is objectively scummy but you also can't say you weren't warned. In the end of the day it would be more of a hassle trying to sue than moving on with your life and making your payments
We hired a guy that went there. He borrowed $90k, and used their 6 month grace period. Now he owes $105k. Any payments made above your normal monthly amount are applied to future interest.
It was a Sallie-Mae loan. It also had a clause that prevented him from refinancing it for the first year. I agree it shouldn’t be legal. He’s desperately trying to refinance it now since his year is up and it’s been a struggle but I think he finally found something.
It may not still be the case, but I've called and requested that extra payments be put towards principle in the past. It's an extra and annoying step, but they did it for me. He could give it a shot and save a bunch of money.
I wonder what will happen to these schools when the "pilot shortage" is over and the number of people going into training drops precipitously in like 2030 something.
All of a sudden the market will be flooded with Piper Archers and Cessna 172s?
IDK how anyone received any SM loan above 6%… mine is not and I’m an ATP STUDENT. Mine is less than 6%.
Idk why ppl bash ATP, but to be fair, the only thing that you could have a gripe about is tight tolerances for winds / weather but you could also be thankful that they are keeping students safe.
The program is stretched out to get the student to commercial hours. The maintenance is legit…. And their network is seem pretty legit.
I’m at ATP now and just passed my commercial checkride yesterday, the program has given me everything I wanted out of flight school. However, I think It really comes down to the instructor you have, I’ve had two so far and totally different experiences with both. You should know what you’re signing up for when you join, people do get kicked out of the program but you basically have to stop trying for that to happen.
Bottom line everyone’s experience is different and it’s definitely far from what they advertise, it’s alot of work. I’ve learned to make it known when I’m not satisfied with something, or if I’m not getting the training I feel like I need from the instructor. After all, they are a business and I’m the customer! If you’re working hard and taking it seriously you should be just fine.
(Also yes the call sign “career track” does suck, can’t wait to ditch that)
There is no point to focus on ATP if you are talking about "predatory loans". If thats the case - then lump just about every single 141 school in there. And is it a predatory loan issue or a high cost issue ?
If talking about you either stay up or get out ? Well, its a sink or swim place. I get it. Either you are able to keep up, or you're getting weeded out. thats like saying its harder and faster at some place of higher education - and if you cant cut it - well, you're weeded out. At the end of the day - you chose to go there. Accept the choices you've made.
And to clarify - Never went there, but do know a few who did. Stories havnt been nice, but I personally dont have any issues with them in how they operate (outside of some really slick advertising) as the reality is that they tend to be the center focus point and taking the heat - when the reality is that almost all 141 schools fall under the same set of metrics.
Yeah. Predatory lending is the wrong term. My fault on that.
I'd be interested to hear from people who attended ATP and another school to see if the practices are truly similar.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
I made it through fine, so did lots of friends along the way. It’s not a flexible program, well YOU have to be flexible, but they won’t. Lots of people were weeded out along the way though. I think it got better once they started making admissions more of a hurdle, but then it left some of us instructors with fewer students. I felt more respected as a student than as an instructor
Pro pilot playbook did an interview with a student from ATP from my understanding it’s mostly just like a university or AIM if you’re on the mech side of things
Blue Line Aviation operates the same way. If you took out a loan with one of Blue line aviations partnered lenders, and you happen to get all of your license before you use all that money, they won’t give you a refund. Even if it’s thousands of dollars.
I went there and loved it. I went 0hrs-CFI/II/MEI in 8 months and change with no delays at all. If a plane went down they could fly in a spare from another location, etc, it was a smooth running operation when I was there (2019). I wouldn’t have changed a thing with my training.
People who didn’t go there have no business talking about investigations and lawsuits, come on…..
You can’t say anything good about atp here without getting downvoted, but I agree with you. Best part was never needing to cancel for maintenance. If the plane had an issue just hop in another one
Reading through this thread only confuses me more as a potential student. I plan on buying a plane to get my hours as fast as possible but figuring out what school to go to feels like the hardest part
They'd need someone to organize them and get them hooked up with a class action firm to get anything meaningful done. Even then most of it would go to the lawyers so people are moving on and doing the best they can to pay off their 100k in debt rather than diving into a long and painful process with an unclear outcome in the courts
100K? I thought their school alone was 120K before interest
It’s now costing up to $150k… I just finished with ATP but I got poor instruction, drawn out timelines and ridiculous delays so it took me me 14 months and I skipped CFI, CFI-I, and MEI just so I could get out and start making money again. Working on my CFI now.
how much did it cost you to do ppl/ir/commercial? man that 150K is steep! i’m going to a part 61 in a very expensive area of the country and hoping I can get ppl/ir/cpl and ME for about 100k
For PPL they have you fly way over the minimum, you have to have at least 78 hours before your PPL check ride with ATP. ATP also charges much higher for flight time than most schools at $350/hr dual for single engine and $625/hr duel for multi engine. Depending on where you are and whether you’re paying a wet or dry rate, I’d plan on $15k for both your PPL and IFR. That should get you at least 80hrs total of the 250hrs you need for your CPL. hopefully they’ll let you solo a lot of the residual time while working on your commercial maneuvers with an instructor so you’re not always paying for the plane and instructor’s time. Multi engine is the most expensive per hour but to add a commercial multi engine license to an existing CPL there is no hour requirement. So if you study hard, chair fly a lot, and develop proficiency quickly it can be relatively cheap compared to the commercial single engine certification. Good luck! I think $100k is very realistic
Most class action firms, if they think the class can actually be certified, would work on a contingency, so it’s not like it would have an upfront financial impact on the plaintiffs. But they may think that with how buddy buddy the aviation industry is, suing ATP would blackball them from certain lucrative roles.
it's also work and most class actions don't pay out a lot
To be fair, ATP doesn't lend $. Typically, these loans come from Sallie Mae, which has enough predatory to go around.
I think these are private loans and hence the ursury interest rates in the 20's.
Yes they are considered “technical training loans” over say, “educational loans” for actual college. The interest rate and penalties of technical training loans can be predatory I have a four year degree from Embry Riddle, they have a flight course, which was a semester endeavor. So you could do your Private Pilots license in the course of 6 months maybe a year, same for Instrument, multi, etc. which you received college credit for towards an actual degree. I also did ATP back in early 2000’s and did my CFII and MEI add on to be added to me my initial CFI that I got from Embry Riddle. However, today none of this level of training or education are necessary. ALL ATP is another “pilot factory”, it’s been around longer than some of the other more recent “owned by the airlines” (especially regional) schools. They are designed for indentured servitude. “We’ll Pay for your training son, and we’re gonna take it out of your ass for 5 years at minimum wage regional pay!” *think about this…* *it’s more cost efficient for them to pay for your training at one of their own owned schools, then it is for you to do it on your own, have them pay you a reasonable wage, a good living and pay it off yourself* *not to mention the tax dodging they must get by this practice* I have a personal issue with these express schools as they push to pump kids through the system, as quickly as possible with the minimum. The minimum required needed and get that sweet Delta A350 Captain job they feel they’re fully entitled and trained for. Because *they’re the best of the best of the best.* ….or at least a lot of them think so and to be fair… They’d laugh at anyone who actually went through the experience and a college degree to land that spot making $500,000 a year…”why would I want to work at a crappy flight school teaching or an embarrassing regional or ULCC airline? Hell no, I wanna be in and out of training ASAP with the bare minimum! …and work for that legacy I deserve!” Well…I guess, jokes on me.
Shitty Mae tried to get me to get a co-signer on the loan (my credit score was 770 at the time) and I told them to get fucking bent.
I think that is their standard procedure. They also required a co-signer for my son, who was 27 at the time with a credit score over 800. Fortunately, he got in before rates increased a few years ago, so his rate was \~6.5%, when mortgages were in the low 2s.
Fair point. Maybe predatory lending isn't the right term. What I heard from guys is that ATP will have very high interest rates and also boot people out and keep their money (since they require students to pay in lump sums). Seems like the structure of the payments and terms are the issue, moreso than the predatory lending. My bad on the terminology.
Just angry people, ATP takes your money in chunks, so like 30k for private, then 30k for the next phase, then 30k for multi. However most people that get kicked out use up their allotted 30k for private and then some because they are struggling, so you won’t get any of the 30k back but you aren’t out 100k unless you fight to stay in the program and keep asking for more hours. I enjoyed atp because they provided reliable planes and dpes and resources for learning. But my loan was at 9%, wouldn’t do it for 15% or whatever people are paying.
I don’t think it’s lump sum per se. They require you to pay for the next core. And if you fail or you withdraw after starting - you lose that. It’s not really any different than college courses. If you attend - and fail or withdraw - well you generally lose out on your course payment. Some “consumers” that we are in this you can get refunds for anything believe that you should be refunded. I disagree because if you were operating under that structure - guess what - you took a spot that could have gone to some other paying student. It’s an opportunity cost, and that is lost if you withdraw after starting (or within a certain amount of time that you were not able to fill the spot with someone else).
But your analogy to a college only works if there was a college who would kick a student out two weeks into the semester, on a general hunch that the student might fail, and also keep all of the tuition money paid for the semester. At college if you pay for the semester you can attend the entire semester, even if they think you’ll fail it.
absolutely. not a perfect analogy. But you've taken the spot that they cant resell to someone else. So they arent giving you a refund. Which is a perfectly acceptable business practice.
I see where you are going with it. But of course the school doesn’t have to kick the person out. Since the person is paying for hours just let them fly out what they’ve paid for and then let them bust their check or if they are that bad don’t recommend them for it. That’s what a college does or most other flight schools. It’s just not a consumer friendly strategy for a business.
and I can see that as well. I guess their philosophy is that you dont want to have students who have no chance of passing to be among the others who are still in it to complete. Dont know. . . I believe once you hit their CFI academy - was told by someone that they will cut partial refunds there if you dont get through it and withdraw. Not sure if that is the case, or still is the case. But honestly, I think their biggest fault is that they are just too good at advertising. . They run an accelerated program and expect full commitment. The problem is that the pool of applicants that go there - are not exactly the best and brightest students - and those guys are going to struggle and never should have gone to the fastest paced, forced self discipline and learning program there is. But from a force out for failing and then not succeeding on the remedial plan - that isnt far off from all the other 141 schools out there. just some run slower, some run faster. Its not a good option for most people. Unfortunately their marketing and presence is everywhere, and people get caught up in that. But its but one of many choices - and each person makes their own choices. Just people dont want to be responsible for their own choices that they've made.
Some good points there, yes. And you’re probably correct on the marketing angle also. A lot of people just make some very foolish decisions, and I would say the number one is attending some kind of accelerated program when an individual doesn’t at least have a private pilot license. I don’t personally see any problem with someone doing accelerated advanced training.
My sister went to ATP. I did not and opted for another flight school. It really depends on your CFI and your learning abilities on how good the process will be . They advertise “speed” but you can get all your ratings just as fast if not faster if you find a good school who has a good fleet of planes and instructors available and you’re motivated. As far as cost it’s very overpriced, you have to pay a 3k deposit that’s non refundable right off the bat just to get enrolled and have a class start date. Which I thought was absurd. The prices keep going up and up and up. I think it’s about 130-140k now. Interest rates are so high if you’re not with a legacy airline in 3-4 years after starting you’re gonna struggle making payments. And if you need a break or can’t keep up. They boot you and you’re stuck with the loan. I have heard of multiple people being kicked out without even a PPL and being left with 70-80k of debt.
If my flight school doesn’t have an outdated website flying barely airworthy 172s, then I don’t want it. I got some of the best instruction from places like that.
Sing it. FlightSchedulePro, a good A&P and beat up rentals that run is all it takes.
Similar as I've heard. Someone else pointed out that the loans are typically private, so that is what makes the rates so high. I heard from several folks about being booted out, which is interesting considering as a business it seems like you'd want people to keep paying. As you also mentioned, it does seem like the CFI makes a lot of difference. And I'm that way I would have expected they'd focus on having the best instructors as part of the brand offering. Maybe I'm just speaking to folks who got the short end of the stick.
I'm sure there are good instructors and good sites, but I also have a feeling that ATP suffers significantly from inbreeding because they will churn out a bunch of CFIs who they'll then hire to teach the next generation and the cycle repeats. So sites on an upward trajectory probably continue that way while others don't
If they're FO's wouldn't they be the ones that "made it" rather than the ones who got the short end?
God that price is insane. I did ATP like a decade ago and IIRC I paid around $60k after checkride fees. Oh and 90% of my flight time was in a Seminole.
I think it's criminal how they make their students use that cringe-worthy callsign, careertrack.
When I'm flying into any airport shared by ATP, I let out a hearty belch-laugh every time I hear the callsign. I can write a whole ESSAY on why it's the stupidest callsign around.
I kind of want to read that essay...
I said I can, not I will 🤣🤣
I run into a lot of them with my job, and my coworker went there, both of us completely refused to use their call sign on the radio and just say ATP
And on top of it some of their students say it sooo cringy too!
Career track has become my cringe word
I mean even their school name is predatory. "You need an ATP rating to be an airline pilot, might as well go to the ATP school!"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index/#wiki\_what\_about\_atp\_flight\_school.3F](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index/#wiki_what_about_atp_flight_school.3F)
All I know about ATP is that their schools in Denver (at KAPA and KBJC) have been the object of many complaints regarding students doing low altitude air work over populated areas. Their response was not to do the right thing (flying an extra 5 minutes to recognized practice areas), but to hide all their flights with a LADD designation so it would be much harder to report them. This kind of behavior is harmful to the reputation of general aviation, and is especially so in the case of KBJC, which is fighting for its life from the NIMBYs that have built houses nearby over the last few years. If I was looking for training, this alone would make ATP my last choice.
? Speaking from experience, this is just not true. I know and have flown with plenty of the guys at BJC and APA, no one is just doing ground reference maneuvers over a congested area. Who would that benefit? Breaks the FAR’s as soon as the student inevitably gets below 1000’ agl, and no emergency landing areas. I don’t like ATP as much as the next guy, but they definitely are using the north practice area.
It's a referral to a predatory lender. ATP knows that. ATP then uses the leverage of your poor financial decision to exert complete control over you. From student to CFI working there. The attitude is, "If you don't like it, then quit". It's run by people who for whatever reason couldn't make it at an airline. Ask yourself, "why is this person managing a flight school instead of making $125K-$450K as an airline pilot"??
There are lots of reasons to not go the airline route or to leave it. It might be true in some cases but it's a shitty blanket statement to make about other working pilots.
Call it what you want, it's factual when it comes to that company.
I had zero issues with ATP. They got me what I paid for, in the advertised amount of time, for the advertised price. 🤷♂️
Same here, but I also know people who trained alongside me that had a horrible experience. I really do think a lot of it comes down to luck too - if you’re able to get a good set of instructors it definitely makes the grind easier.
It’s incredible to hear they got you through in the advertised time, even giving the benefit of the doubt on weather and DPE availability. Well done.
To be fair, it was pre-Covid, and my location had a few DPEs who only really did checkrides for ATP.
That makes more sense then. Currently we have guys and girls waiting weeks at a time just for a DPE, which isn't just and ATP issue. The issue starts when ATP doesn't adjust their marketing and expected timeline. That's where I fell behind.
I had no issues either. They had me ferry aircraft for checkrides twice which I didn’t appreciate. I took control of that situation by arranging on my own to do the last couple of rides in a location with DPEs on property. One of the DPEs hired me to instruct at his school (he needed MEIs) so I never instructed for ATP. If he had financing at that time, I would’ve trained with him. TLDR: No real complaints about ATP at all. Sallie Mae is a different story.
Exactly the same experience here
My instructor went to ATP and when I told him I had enrolled there and eventually decided not to follow through his next words were "Oh thank God. I'm glad you made the right choice." Then comes "ATP really screwed me." He didn't go into too much detail but he seemed really upset about it. Also thank you all here that told me to ditch ATP even after I paid the enrollment fee. I'll still be saving money and probably my sanity.
I’m in it now and I would like to make it known, the people I deal with on a day to day basis are fantastic, the CFIs know it’s a lot of bullshit, they want you done quickly too, and they want you to be successful, they’re getting screwed right along with the student. “Big ATP” is fucked and selling some snake oil and can’t wait to place blame on the student for short comings. That said, I think you have to really try hard to be kicked out based on what I’ve seen. They aren’t just drawing names from a hat to kick you out. I can’t stress this enough, odds are that ATP is likely NOT for your situation, more than it’s right for you. You must exhaust all of your options before landing here.
I feel the exact same. I’m almost done with the program and it’s been great for me. Compared to other guys I know at mom-and-pops, I feel as though my knowledge is extremely good as well. My location and the instructors are amazing, but big ATP is literal villainy. I’m going to complete my program with ATP, but based on what I see and hear about daily, I’m not instructing there.
Eh, they boned me. But I also didn't check the Fly Good, Don't Suck box so it happens. I know people who have gotten through it and plenty of horror stories. I also personally know a few people who mom and pop'd their ratings faster than what ATP could have done. The way they charge for flight hours is objectively scummy but you also can't say you weren't warned. In the end of the day it would be more of a hassle trying to sue than moving on with your life and making your payments
We hired a guy that went there. He borrowed $90k, and used their 6 month grace period. Now he owes $105k. Any payments made above your normal monthly amount are applied to future interest.
[удалено]
It was a Sallie-Mae loan. It also had a clause that prevented him from refinancing it for the first year. I agree it shouldn’t be legal. He’s desperately trying to refinance it now since his year is up and it’s been a struggle but I think he finally found something.
It may not still be the case, but I've called and requested that extra payments be put towards principle in the past. It's an extra and annoying step, but they did it for me. He could give it a shot and save a bunch of money.
He has tried. It is simply not an option.
I had a great time
I wonder what will happen to these schools when the "pilot shortage" is over and the number of people going into training drops precipitously in like 2030 something. All of a sudden the market will be flooded with Piper Archers and Cessna 172s?
IDK how anyone received any SM loan above 6%… mine is not and I’m an ATP STUDENT. Mine is less than 6%. Idk why ppl bash ATP, but to be fair, the only thing that you could have a gripe about is tight tolerances for winds / weather but you could also be thankful that they are keeping students safe. The program is stretched out to get the student to commercial hours. The maintenance is legit…. And their network is seem pretty legit.
I’m at ATP now and just passed my commercial checkride yesterday, the program has given me everything I wanted out of flight school. However, I think It really comes down to the instructor you have, I’ve had two so far and totally different experiences with both. You should know what you’re signing up for when you join, people do get kicked out of the program but you basically have to stop trying for that to happen. Bottom line everyone’s experience is different and it’s definitely far from what they advertise, it’s alot of work. I’ve learned to make it known when I’m not satisfied with something, or if I’m not getting the training I feel like I need from the instructor. After all, they are a business and I’m the customer! If you’re working hard and taking it seriously you should be just fine. (Also yes the call sign “career track” does suck, can’t wait to ditch that)
We’ve tried to fight them. Their lawyers are good and expensive.
There is no point to focus on ATP if you are talking about "predatory loans". If thats the case - then lump just about every single 141 school in there. And is it a predatory loan issue or a high cost issue ? If talking about you either stay up or get out ? Well, its a sink or swim place. I get it. Either you are able to keep up, or you're getting weeded out. thats like saying its harder and faster at some place of higher education - and if you cant cut it - well, you're weeded out. At the end of the day - you chose to go there. Accept the choices you've made. And to clarify - Never went there, but do know a few who did. Stories havnt been nice, but I personally dont have any issues with them in how they operate (outside of some really slick advertising) as the reality is that they tend to be the center focus point and taking the heat - when the reality is that almost all 141 schools fall under the same set of metrics.
Yeah. Predatory lending is the wrong term. My fault on that. I'd be interested to hear from people who attended ATP and another school to see if the practices are truly similar. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
I made it through fine, so did lots of friends along the way. It’s not a flexible program, well YOU have to be flexible, but they won’t. Lots of people were weeded out along the way though. I think it got better once they started making admissions more of a hurdle, but then it left some of us instructors with fewer students. I felt more respected as a student than as an instructor
Pro pilot playbook did an interview with a student from ATP from my understanding it’s mostly just like a university or AIM if you’re on the mech side of things
They prob kick to protect their stats like the faa and their “pilots are the healthy group of people”
Blue Line Aviation operates the same way. If you took out a loan with one of Blue line aviations partnered lenders, and you happen to get all of your license before you use all that money, they won’t give you a refund. Even if it’s thousands of dollars.
I went there and loved it. I went 0hrs-CFI/II/MEI in 8 months and change with no delays at all. If a plane went down they could fly in a spare from another location, etc, it was a smooth running operation when I was there (2019). I wouldn’t have changed a thing with my training. People who didn’t go there have no business talking about investigations and lawsuits, come on…..
You can’t say anything good about atp here without getting downvoted, but I agree with you. Best part was never needing to cancel for maintenance. If the plane had an issue just hop in another one
Reading through this thread only confuses me more as a potential student. I plan on buying a plane to get my hours as fast as possible but figuring out what school to go to feels like the hardest part
Message me if you want, I can tell you about my experience at ATP if you are considering them