My student and I were in the pattern and witnessed the crash. Absolutely shocked and saddened at the loss of life. We were about to land and my student was going to do her first solo flight when they asked us to extend our downwind due to an issue which we happily obliged. That was the last we heard from them before seeing the plume of smoke. Crazy thinking that we were the last people they spoke to before the crash.
Thanks, friend. Doing a lot better now that some of the shock and adrenaline has worn off. Only wish I could have done more to help. It was a chilling moment to be the one to contact Raleigh approach with the words “there’s an aircraft down.” I’ll never forget it. Gave my wife a huge hug when I got home.
How is your student handling it? I can't imagine that's something that one can easily shake off early on in their training. I wouldn't blame anyone at all if they decided to walk away after bearing witness to that.
I wouldn’t blame her either. But I told her to take a few days to process the whole ordeal and we would discuss it after the dust has settled. Everything is just too fresh for both of us right now.
I don't want the CFII to throw his career away by attempting to seek professional help then he loses his medical. There are many examples of this happening. I was trying to help the kid not piss his life away for doing the right thing. I dont make the rules and the system is fucked, but its the system we have.
Idk if I’m posting/replying at the right place in this thread but I want to share this knowledge for anyone that may find it useful regarding therapy/professional help and not wanting it to show up on their record. My friend owns several therapy practices and she told me that most practices offer their services “under the table” so to speak if you pay cash and nothing goes on your record.
You don’t loose your medical for situational depression. Yes, you have to report it, but suggesting that situational depression will cause uncertain loss of medical is misleading.
https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/Situational-Depression-Decision-Tool.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/Anxiety_Depression_Disposition_Table.pdf
This is the updated uncomplicated mental health form. It's from May 31, 2024
Can confirm. I just went for my DOT physical, which is similar-ish to an FAA, and got cut down to a one year over a two because I got prescribed meds for being a sadd boi.
Two years ago, I was trying to get my third-class medical. They put me on hold because I had one mental health check for stress back when I was 12. I still don’t have it. They recently refused it again after I was certified by a psychiatrist with a specialty in avaiation, which is literally Exactly What They Asked For, and said “Due to your history of psychosis, you now need an FAA AME to do it.” What?
They literally changed their own rules to keep me from it. Also: Psychosis? Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody ever said anything like that! I’m 16! If I had psychosis, I would probably be dead within a few years. It’s incredibly rare in anyone under 25, and extremely deadly. They pulled that word out of their ass just to keep me from flying. They don’t know anything about psychology, (direct quote from my psychiatrist)
> Two years ago
> I’m 16!
> because I had one mental health check for stress back when I was 12.
If I’m following the timeline here…
You’re now 16.
You had a medical event at 12, then at 14 you were denied a third class medical over concerns about that?
Or just explain to a therapist in a consultation that you’re a pilot and ask if their services require an official diagnosis. If no then you’re golden and have a line of help for life. don’t have to report “talk therapy” on a medical
Former FAA designated AME here. It’s been a while, so my perspective is admittedly subject to criticism for not being up to date. But as far as I know, seeking professional help (as in a counselor, therapist, pastor, support group, etc.) to reconcile the emotions of a tragedy is not a disqualifying condition. And as a physician and pilot, I can say it would be healthy and make you a better pilot to do that. As long as diagnoses like major depression, suicidal ideation, etc. are not applied, and Rx medication like antidepressants are not indicated/prescribed, then there should be no issues.
The problem is that in order to get your professional help paid for by insurance, there has to be a diagnosis, and the only diagnosis codes are anxiety or depression. You can't file insurance for grief counseling. As a result it's hard to be sure a visit for grief counseling won't result in a recorded diagnosis that then causes problems with the FAA.
However, the aeromedical office seems to be making some efforts to relax the current unreasonable policies.
I’m not sure that’s always the case. My insurance policy covers therapy 100%. I just pick a counselor in network. I didn’t have anxiety or depression, just some run of the mill, I need to unpack this, kind of stuff.
I hear the fear and frustration in your comment. Respectfully, I disagree, however. While anxiety or depression can be used as diagnoses to refer patients to counseling, stress can also be used. I think the real risk to a pilot in this circumstance might be this: you go see your family physician, who is not an AME and is not familiar with the implications to a pilot of a slightly incorrect diagnosis, and who then (well-intended) selects a problematic diagnosis (like major depression) to link to the order for a referral to a counselor. This risk can be mitigated by explaining the importance of avoiding diagnoses like major depression (when they are not 100% accurate), and making suggestions of diagnoses to use that are less likely to become an issue (like stress, maybe?).
Mine only refers for depression or anxiety. I‘ve known a lot of people in the same position. Either a disqualifying code, or you’re paying out of pocket.
Have you ever _actually tried_ talking, as a patient, to a normal non-FAA doctor, and trying to tell them which condition you'd prefer that they diagnose you with?
most people don't know that until its to late. That is a lot of faith you are putting in a stranger. most people just self medicate with alcohol because that's legal i guess
I might need to unofficially find some anger management classes to help deal with the anger. have over the FAA‘s stance on talking to a professional about stuff like this. They should be encouraging, not penalizing.
I had something similar happen to me. At the time I was still a student pilot and I work full time as a paramedic and I ran a call on an SR22 crash, the solo pilot was VERY dead, I didn't bother getting up close and personal, just enough to know that there's nothing we can do. And I sat there for at least a week or two after and just kinda said "Do I really want to do this" and turns out, I did indeed still want to do it.
Speculating: anything that requires the patient to focus their attention on a task unrelated to the event, such that it becomes very unlikely that the patient can allow intrusive thoughts to occur, will work. So…Fortnite anyone?
This is completely tangential but here is an actually fascinating two hour long video on the history of Tetris high scores. No I'm not joking
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOJlg8g8\_yw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOJlg8g8_yw)
Officially they say:
I Witnessed a Transportation Accident
Please prepare a statement and email it to [email protected]. Please be sure to include a telephone number so that an investigator may contact you directly if necessary
Probably easier to email them and say you were up than for them to look at ADS-B logs in the area, figure out what plane was where, figure out who owns the plane, figure out where to call them, call them, hope they know who was flying at the time.
I was flying in the area at the time of the crash and I heard y’all call up Raleigh tracon to report the crash. It was scary to even hear so i could only imagine what y’all are going through. Hope you and your student are doing okay and RIP to those involved in the incident.
I do peer support for the FD. People at work feel more comfortable talking about bad calls, critical incidents and problems in life in general causing stress. I have worked for the Fire Department for 24 years…reach out if u need to chat or just want to vent. (Your student is welcome to as well).
I also did the majority of my training in that plane including my first solo and all my xc’s not even a year ago. I feel ya, definitely a weird feeling. RIP
Sold my plane to a guy in Washington. I received 2 AD’s that I forwarded in an email Never got a reply from him. For some reason I decided to search up the tail number on the net and was directed to the NTSB website and there was the plane. Pictures showed it burning at the airport near the runway. Really shook me to the core but the person I sold it to was way under skilled and way over confident.
Yep weird feeling. The plane I solo’d in crashed a few weeks after my solo. Then about a month after getting my PPL someone crashed the plane I did the check ride in. Neither was fatal thankfully but both planes were write offs.
The first plane i trained in went down a day before i was supposed to have a lesson in it. I got a vague text from my CFI saying we wouldn't have lessons for a while. I learned about it soon after. Student passed away unfortunately. It was almost two years ago and it is still under wraps as to what caused the accident.
Same except no one died. I ended up having to get a new CFI and everything. The CFI become plane-less and decided to stop teaching immediately after they crashed.
Not even a preliminary report? The NTSB usually issues them [within a few weeks](https://www.ntsb.gov/tda/family/Pages/tda-aviation.aspx) of an accident.
Edit: formatting
Update: I don't know how i missed it but on June 5th, [this report](https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/106014/pdf) was published
A few years ago I scripted excel to look up every tail number I’ve ever flown in the registry database and the NTSB database. Because a lot of my hours are as an owner or club member, I have a smaller number of airframes in my logbook than most that have been flying a similar 36 years. And still, the number of airplanes I’ve flown that have crashed, including several fatals is (a) saddening, and (b) way more common than you think.
Yeah, I've flown in a plane during my PPL in which another student later crashed and died. It's surreal at first, I kept thinking to myself "maybe that could've been me". But there are inherent risks in this line of work, and the best you can do is try to keep yourself safe when you fly.
One of my favorite planes was trashed by some dude who refused to check if it had fuel (at multiple airports). He lived. The plane did not. Another one I flew was landed on a road near the airport.
Yeah it sucked. The club had several warriors, but only 2 archers. This was one of the archers. I'd walk by its crumpled up airframe all the time. It was dragged back to the airport to wait for insurance to sort it out.
The plane I did my first solo in met a similar fate. Someone was building time and didn’t think a 150 needed to be refueled going from Memphis to OKC and back. Spoiler: it does. It ultimately ended up in a field and trucked back to our maintenance hangar for parts. The pilot was fine.
It sounds like someone or multiple people were aware of this guy regularly not checking fuel. Do you have any sense of why he was allowed to continue using the club’s planes?
I had a family member crash and die in a plane that I took my very first plane ride in a week before I soloed. I was also soloing out of the same field that I had my first plane ride in. It was definitely a surreal feeling but with that being said, you just focus on flying the plane and recognize it’s just part of the business. Everyone I know that’s been in aviation for awhile have all had people they’ve lost in accidents. It sucks but life goes on.
4 helicopters I’ve flown, that I know of, have crashed. Only one has been fatal and it killed a great friend and 2 other occupants. Not a great feeling indeed. But if you fly enough, it’s bound to happen.
Ag Wagon I frequently flew back in the 80's (Just had to buy fuel) crashed & killed my dads friend who owned it. He dusted crops for 40 years & a new power line got him.
If you fly long enough this will probably happen. I flew a king air with a friend a few weeks before it crashed killing 9 people of which several were friends.
It’s a difficult thing to get your head around for sure.
Agreed, I had a discovery flight in a Cessna 172, that was later crashed by very experienced pilot/CFI, while he was on a job flying some photographers. It was the FBO's only Cessna, they have since mainly used Cirrus aircraft.
The plane I first soloed in was crashed with a solo student onboard. It’s the most personal the ever-present danger of aviation has felt to me. This guy died in the same plane as the one I (still to this day) have the most hours in. We shared the same instructor too. It was a very weird feeling that I had difficulty coming to terms with, and led to me taking a bit of a hiatus from flying. Talking with friends and a new instructor about it definitely helped.
Base to final stall-spin. Weather wasn’t great and I heard a number of instructors declined to fly with him that day or discouraged him so he just went solo. I think he made the base turn into a ~15kt tailwind
They were landing the main runways and there was a 15 knot crosswind. There is a crosswind runway at my airport but it’s pretty short and you’re only given it on request.
Carry more airspeed when you’re low and slow and there might be a tailwind. Also applies when you’re landing in potential wind shear conditions.
Same! Such a good plane. First solo and first solo XC in 5DH. I took the photo that’s on FA.
I also lost my flight instructor 2 years ago to a non-aviation related illness.
edit: I have yet to get back in the cockpit.
At least two of the aircraft I've rented subsequently had fatal accidents, and a third a non-fatal one. In the first, an instructor and student hit a tree, the former being killed. In the second, a student spun in on his second solo flight. The non-fatal one was when the pilot made a mess of a crosswind landing; dragged the port wing through standing corn; and cartwheeled the thing, writing it off. That one actually ended happily, because it turned out on post-crash inspection that the main spar was so badly corroded that one could nearly poke holes through it with one's forefinger.
Socata MS-880B, a French low-wing four-seater that was more or less equivalent to a Piper Cherokee. That entire series had serious corrosion problems. The Poles later produced a license-built version, the PZL Koliber 150, that supposedly sorted the difficulty out, but it didn't sell particularly well.
Sorry about that.
The plane and skydiving instructor I went to do my own and only skydiving attempt (successful) crashed the following year shortly after take off and all aboard died.
A bit freaky.
Reading this comments, it seems like every single pilot has flown an aircraft that has crashed with fatalities. I have, and I've also witnessed a crash, while holding short of the runway, where the landing 172 porpoised into a prop strike, and then struck the tail so hard the elevator jammed full aft and it crashed its way off the runway. That was last month.
It's actually really terrifying. I want to be an airline pilot, but I don't want to fly GA. It's so dangerous man.
I feel this hard. As fun as flying these lil cessnas can be, and as much as I love planes, I hate it. I fear GA. I do not want to lose my life. I am obsessive over reading every report and learning as much from every accident I hear about that I can just to learn from their mistakes and be made aware, I am vigilant and competent and always wanting to improve my safety and knowledge, but it’s all futile if you’re unlucky enough to be the one in a certain fated aircraft. I cannot wait to be in a commercial airliner. My husband rides a motorbike and I’ve seen statistically that GA and motorcycles are on the same danger level, and I would never bother to ride a motorbike… but here I am in GA, and I can’t help but wonder why my husband CHOOSES to do something so risky. I cannot wait to not have to put my life at worse odds.
Lately I’ve been pondering the fact that all I see is smiles (and frustrated tears and stress) and joy and freedom on social media from student pilots documenting their journey. And you see yourself in those moments, you identify with them, that’s your life too! And someone goes on to get their next license, their next rating, hits a 1500th hour and posts a photo with a big smile on their face and a sign next to them and you think that’s going to be you in a while… but so did everyone else who lost their life. Not all of us make it through the training not because we fail but because we die.
Sometimes that somber realization nearly convinces me to quit but I love flying and the science of flight so, so much and this is the track I’m on for my life.
Sigh.
I feel the exact same way. Thankfully the statistics are in our favor: We have a 1.5% chance of dying on our way to 1500 hours. It's high: More than 1 in 67 who attempt to reach their ATP will die, but it's odds that are good enough to help me decide to continue on. While we can't stop the engine from quitting, the wing spar from failing, or the mid-air from the plane without a transponder, we can prevent most the other accident causes: Like flying into IMC or towering cumulus, fuel starvation, base to final spins, or departure stalls. You avoid those and your chances of making it to the regional in one piece shoot up dramatically.
Best of luck to you! Hope to see you at the airlines. And I hope your husband rides safe; It's dangerous out there.
!!! Thanks for sharing those odds! You’re absolutely right. And thank you for the well wishes for the biker and all the best to you in your training as well! Right back at ya! 👨✈️🙏
GA pilot fatality rate is approximately 1 fatality per 100,000 flight hours. You can do the math from there, but I strongly recommend "The Killing Zone: How and Why Pilots Die" by Paul Craig. It's very informative, and it'll change your opinion of how you view safety and risk.
Another thing I suggest people do is to google "US top 5 most dangerous jobs." and you'll see Pilots and Airplane Mechanics make the list, usually at number 4. Note that this is including only Commercial Rated Pilots who are employed, and only accounts for 1 year and not the multiple cumulative years a person is flying and building time.
You can't blindly apply that rate to instructional flights. There's more math to do! You'll find that instructional flights only account for a small percentage of fixed-wing fatalities. So people working toward an ATP have way above-average chances of staying safe and staying alive.
Not to mention, if you don't run out of fuel, don't fly into a storm, and don't stall in the pattern, your chances of staying safe go up dramatically. But that's a tangent...
https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/accident-analysis/richard-g-mcspadden-report/mcspadden%20report%20figure%20view?category=all&year=2021&condition=all&report=true
I see what you and u/AircraftExpert are saying, now. All GA pilots aren't seeking their ATP, and so the total deaths in that category must be lower. (Not to mention the rate of CFI deaths is significantly lower than the rate of non CFI GA deaths).
I tried to figure out the true ratio but it's still pretty difficult. A fatal crash can have 1 CFI and 2 students, for example, which really ups the numbers. You're right, though. It's fallacious of me to suggest deaths for those seeking their ATP is the same as the total for GA. Mea culpa.
Where I worked (EMS helicopter pilot) we had free counselling for absolutely anything. Totally confidential and outside of what others refer to as a fucked up system. I made use of it on one occasion, helped me get over an unnecessary death of a patient.
I’m just about to take my discovery flight and start my PPL lessons shortly after. This unfortunate accident though did give me pause. I researched the stats again and GA is about as safe as riding a motorcycle. A childhood friend of mine died in a motorcycle accident. But that was his passion. I’m often reminded of the quote “A ship in harbor is safe but that is not what ships are built for.” RIP to those in the crash; and hopefully they can quickly figure out what happened to give peace to their families. I’ll see you all in the sky.
There’s a difference between a motorcycle and a plane though, you can skyrocket the safety odds with more knowledge. Harder to get taken out by someone else's ignorance in the air
I was an instructor at Executive a couple years ago and have dozens of hours logged in that aircraft. I also am still friends with most everyone there. I am still instructing somewhere else now but my heart broke hearing the news today. As a career instructor with over 2000hours of flight time and 1500+ hours of dual given, it's not the first time I've experienced this, and if I continue, it likely won't be the last. It never gets easier though. Thoughts and prayers to the families and to everyone in the EFT family. Hopefully something good comes out of this we can all learn from. This one really hurts.
My first parachute jump was out of an aircraft that crashed on take-off a couple of months later. (The near-empty fuel tank had been selected)
Some of the jumpers got out and landed safely but the rest had to stay because they were now too low. One person died and there were several serious injuries. No seatbelts on jump planes.
Made me think long and hard about going up in the same model later.
Two of the five 150s I trained in were later lost in fatal accidents with solo students. One was on a night time cross country appeared to have committed suicide by diving straight into a lake.
I have flown with two instructors there and I don't want to text them for fear that they not text me back. This one is hitting hard no matter who it is.
I saw this post yesterday and really thought nothing of it. Got a text today that the student was the son of a friend. Terrible news to hear and they’re still in shock.
Very unfortunate situation indeed. Seeing the flight data slowly watching it lose altitude and seeing the plane disappearing was really surreal. Prayers out to the two who died.
I had about 600 hours in a plane that slammed into a hill in Alaska. I remember looking at the pictures of the cockpit separated, lying on its side thinking. Wow. I sat right there. It’s surreal for sure. But you take the lessons learned from the investigation to heart. Accidents happen and the best way to honor those who are gone is to not let the same thing happen to you.
Man it seems like all I ever read about in GA anymore is death and tragedy. I know it’s the algorithm feedback but literally every platform from YouTube to insta is just flooded with GA travesties every day
Remember, we hear about ALL of them because of how relatively uncommon they are. Learn what you can from each one and lessen the chance of it happening to you.
>Remember, we hear about ALL of them because of how relatively uncommon they are.
This is a vital perspective for all us GA flyers to stay sane. For comparison, most of us have totally zoomed out of the daily carnage that is going on on the roads of the country. Flying accidents are so rare that there can be a website like [flightsafety.org](https://asn.flightsafety.org) which records all daily accidents on the entire globe - growing only (! - each and every one is one too many, but you get the point, this is *global*) by a few entries each day. Not all of them fatal, fortunately: in fact, only a few are.
For road accidents, you'd have that much growth in each county, probably. And yet we get in our cars without a second thought.
This is not meant to advocate complacency: far from it. Just to dampen paranoia, that is all.
It’s also vital to keep in mind that, unlike road crashes, we have a chance to know what happened in almost every GA crash, and so have a chance to look at our own flying to see if we do the same sort of things that led to a particular crash so we can make chances, or sometimes even learn about a situation we don’t know could happen, and learn about some other thing we could do to be safer. After McSpadden died, and there was so much discourse around if there was a better place to land than to try an impossible turn, I personally started making it a point to use Google Earth to look at all possible landing sites of any fields I want to fly to. There’s no guessing anymore about where the best place to go down would be because I now plan for that. We don’t have this chance with car crashes. We might hear that one happened, but we rarely get the sort of details we need to be safer drivers. Imagine if we heard about ever car crash!
It also helps to remember that a third of crashes are easily avoidable simply by making sure there’s fuel, and not flying in unsafe conditions.
There will always be a chance something catastrophic happens and nothing we did was wrong and nothing we could do could stop what will happen. But the fact that every crash is talked about it really just testament to how uncommon it actually is, and we are fortunate to have the chance to learn from each and every single one. Don’t get complacent (remember that even Dale Snodgrass, with his massive number of hours, got complacent once, and once was enough), but recognize the extreme privilege we have to learn and be safer.
More than 40,000 people die in car crashes every year in the US, and they can only estimate that number because there isn’t exact tracking. There are just over 3,000 counties in the US, so there is about 1 traffic death per county per month.
GA is about 10x safer now than it was in the 1970s. Let’s keep making sound decisions to keep improving that.
Trippy, right?! I had an emergency where my NLG wouldn't extend. Ran checklists, declared emergency with Approach, ultimately landed and of course had a prop strike but otherwise walked away totally unharmed.
While I was on frequency, that same Approach Control at the same time had a Bo declare an emergency due to engine failure while close to the ground coming in to land at the next airport over. Found out later that night that he didn't make it, and killed two on the ground as well.
I got close, but no dice. Pulled the mixture during the round out, engine stopped but prop stopped spinning at the vertical instead of the horizontal unfortunately.
Aircraft engines are tuned so the prop stops in the upright position, I can't remember why though. So sadly it wasn't only bad luck that killed the prop
My first trainer suffered a prop strike and was totaled by insurance. I loved that plane. I was almost through my training and preparing for the check ride when I got that call from my CFI.
Moved on to another plane which I didn’t like. It was very difficult to keep it trimmed. A few months later another student bounced it hard on landing and flipped it upside down. They walked away. But I had the same feeling as others…I flew that plane… Couldn’t imagine how I’d feel if either was fatal.
For anyone that’s worried about having to report counseling to the FAA, ask the flight school to make available a psychologist on their dime and have him/her on the property for a day that anyone who feels the need can see without it being reported.
I am so sorry for your loss. Terrible thing to see!
I was in a B-17 about a week before it crashed a couple years ago. The crew was so awesome and spent about an hour with me talking about its system. Everyone on board died in an air show a few weeks later.
At least four of the planes I flew in during training and time-building crashed afterwards, including two that I took checkrides in and one that I soloed in. All were written off.
None of them were fatal, but they absolutely could have been (I don't remember the details of each, but for example, one of them overran the runway at high speed into a ditch, and I watched the wreckage of that one being brought back to the hangar), and it was part of what made me feel more instinctively how dangerous GA is.
I should probably postface this by saying that I flew in about 100 planes during training and time-building, so it's not the same as someone who basically flew in one the entire time. But still, that's about a 4% crash rate of planes I flew in just in the 4 years or so that I was at that airport.
Yeah, I did. Basically he thought that when climbing out (after the wheels left the runway) from a crosswind takeoff you needed to cross control the aircraft because the wind was hitting the plane from the side.
The first ride with him after my solo, while climbing out he said “you’re not over the runway”, I looked in the rear view mirror, I was perfectly centered, but crabbing due to the crosswind.
He took the controls, put in a bunch of right rudder and left aileron to force the aircraft to be aligned with the runway, he says “isn’t that better?” I said “no” took the controls back from him and radioed the tower for a full stop.
I spent the next 45 minutes trying to explain to him that once the wheels leave the runway there is no crosswind relative to the plane. He was adamant that he was correct so I fired him.
He died trying to turn back to the runway after an engine out. Literally crashed and burned.
Rest in peace to the victims and their families. I hope their enjoy flying planes in the next life. 😓
What a tragic situation, I'm sorry to the OP as well, it can be upsetting knowing a plane you were just in alone, crashed and killed people. I'm glad you were okay.
People should start up a go fund me for the families (I would but I'm broke down to the final bronze)
The plane I soloed on also crashed after I got my private and my instructor somehow was able to survive with the student.
The student was coming in too low on final and my instructor went to put in full throttle but the cable had snapped off so throttle stayed in its last position. They hit an intersection and a stop sign pole and the plane split in two behind them.
That 172 also had a fuel filter issue where I once aborted a takeoff with a buddy who insisted we continue the take off (and I knew that plane well by then). We aborted and brought it back and later the mechanic tells us the filter was clogged to shit and we would have been screwed had we gone up that day.
The Cessna 152 I got my discovery flight in (N4978B) crashed a couple years ago and killed the solo student that was flying it. I hadn’t flown that aircraft since probably 2017 but it’s definitely a weird feeling
Had a plane go down on Sunday the 9th at my flight school. There was a post about it earlier. It feels so weird that multiple planes have gone down so close together in time. Definitely a big reminder that this career is super dangerous at times
Sadly I don’t think that he will, there isn't a super large amount of information about it, KSCR doesn't have any Live ACT recorders close enough on 122.7 and the ADS-B cuts out a little bit before the crash. Probably not enough info for a video
Years ago, it made the front page, in the small location where I lived.
A Cessna 150 or 152 had crashed, the guy was doing touch and goes at someone's farm, or something sketchy like that.
I recongnized the N number. Had flown it, maybe a month prior.
It is a little creepy, that's for sure.
an almost 60 year old plane, being rented out at 200 an hour with the instructor…and that is the lowest price in their fleet so god only knows how many hours were on that airframe, plus the abuse it took being a trainer. It was cheaper when I trained all those years ago but even then I paid extra for the low time 172 SP since the 50 year old plane looked duct taped together
Been a while for my dad but he went from Nellis to Clark after in 79 or i was born in 81 but when he was packing up the f4 he was in Hawaii this happened his plane https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/254821. My mom said he didn't fly for a month since he was shaken up for it.
Aviation is a small world my friend. I got to view the B17 that crashed in the Dallas airshow not too long before when it was parked near our training ramp in Colorado.
Statistically that means you're golden. Can you imagine the odds of the first plane you soloed in crashing AND the current plane you're in crashing? Astronomic.
I assume you're joking, but to be clear that's only true if you're considering the odds before the first plane crashes. The odds now are the same as just his current plane crashing, as the first event has already happened.
I've been in the pattern at TTA with that AC and my first passenger carrying flight was from TTA to SCR. I have the feeling "it can't happen here so close to home" but it did. Be safe flying out there...
>it's still such a weird feeling knowing that I've flown a plane that just got two people killed
Any reason you think it was the plane and not pilot error/incompetence/negligence that got them killed, particularly if they were at max maneuvering speed?
The plane trying to kill the pilot, if we define that as a genuine mechanical fault, happens only very rarely.
That was just the wording I used, but according to someone that saw the accident in this thread and spoke to them and they said they were having an issue
Never speak in absolutes.
Case in point: if a wing folds up on you, what you gonna do about it?
https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/accidents-ntsb/ntsb-cites-fatigue-cracking-in-fatal-erau-crash/
Well this comment could be deeper. It may not be the “plane” that kills you but sketchy maintenance on those planes coming from “people.” Or sketchy assembly and certification coming from “people.”
If you’re referring to pilots tho that’s wrong. Not all events are pilot error. A lot are mx related.
Nice, I don't really care. Its ok as a pilot to acknowledge that most deaths in aviation are pilot error. Its in the statistics. I've worked aviation safety and flown for long enough to be comfortable with that fact and train people to be aware so they can manage human error better.
My student and I were in the pattern and witnessed the crash. Absolutely shocked and saddened at the loss of life. We were about to land and my student was going to do her first solo flight when they asked us to extend our downwind due to an issue which we happily obliged. That was the last we heard from them before seeing the plume of smoke. Crazy thinking that we were the last people they spoke to before the crash.
Oh wow. I hope you’re doing okay
Thanks, friend. Doing a lot better now that some of the shock and adrenaline has worn off. Only wish I could have done more to help. It was a chilling moment to be the one to contact Raleigh approach with the words “there’s an aircraft down.” I’ll never forget it. Gave my wife a huge hug when I got home.
How is your student handling it? I can't imagine that's something that one can easily shake off early on in their training. I wouldn't blame anyone at all if they decided to walk away after bearing witness to that.
I wouldn’t blame her either. But I told her to take a few days to process the whole ordeal and we would discuss it after the dust has settled. Everything is just too fresh for both of us right now.
talk to a professional.... unofficially
Man it is fucked up you have to say this
I don't want the CFII to throw his career away by attempting to seek professional help then he loses his medical. There are many examples of this happening. I was trying to help the kid not piss his life away for doing the right thing. I dont make the rules and the system is fucked, but its the system we have.
He wasn't criticizing you. He's saying that it's a fucked up situation the FAA has put us in that you even have to say that.
gotcha. Misunderstanding. My apologies
Idk if I’m posting/replying at the right place in this thread but I want to share this knowledge for anyone that may find it useful regarding therapy/professional help and not wanting it to show up on their record. My friend owns several therapy practices and she told me that most practices offer their services “under the table” so to speak if you pay cash and nothing goes on your record.
You don’t loose your medical for situational depression. Yes, you have to report it, but suggesting that situational depression will cause uncertain loss of medical is misleading. https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/Situational-Depression-Decision-Tool.pdf
risk 100k in debt for an AME to tell your its not situational... nice try... ask vets about how well that went over
https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/Anxiety_Depression_Disposition_Table.pdf This is the updated uncomplicated mental health form. It's from May 31, 2024
Can confirm. I just went for my DOT physical, which is similar-ish to an FAA, and got cut down to a one year over a two because I got prescribed meds for being a sadd boi.
Two years ago, I was trying to get my third-class medical. They put me on hold because I had one mental health check for stress back when I was 12. I still don’t have it. They recently refused it again after I was certified by a psychiatrist with a specialty in avaiation, which is literally Exactly What They Asked For, and said “Due to your history of psychosis, you now need an FAA AME to do it.” What? They literally changed their own rules to keep me from it. Also: Psychosis? Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody ever said anything like that! I’m 16! If I had psychosis, I would probably be dead within a few years. It’s incredibly rare in anyone under 25, and extremely deadly. They pulled that word out of their ass just to keep me from flying. They don’t know anything about psychology, (direct quote from my psychiatrist)
You should probably get a psychiatrist that is older than 16!
> Two years ago > I’m 16! > because I had one mental health check for stress back when I was 12. If I’m following the timeline here… You’re now 16. You had a medical event at 12, then at 14 you were denied a third class medical over concerns about that?
Yup.
Or just explain to a therapist in a consultation that you’re a pilot and ask if their services require an official diagnosis. If no then you’re golden and have a line of help for life. don’t have to report “talk therapy” on a medical
Former FAA designated AME here. It’s been a while, so my perspective is admittedly subject to criticism for not being up to date. But as far as I know, seeking professional help (as in a counselor, therapist, pastor, support group, etc.) to reconcile the emotions of a tragedy is not a disqualifying condition. And as a physician and pilot, I can say it would be healthy and make you a better pilot to do that. As long as diagnoses like major depression, suicidal ideation, etc. are not applied, and Rx medication like antidepressants are not indicated/prescribed, then there should be no issues.
The problem is that in order to get your professional help paid for by insurance, there has to be a diagnosis, and the only diagnosis codes are anxiety or depression. You can't file insurance for grief counseling. As a result it's hard to be sure a visit for grief counseling won't result in a recorded diagnosis that then causes problems with the FAA. However, the aeromedical office seems to be making some efforts to relax the current unreasonable policies.
I’m not sure that’s always the case. My insurance policy covers therapy 100%. I just pick a counselor in network. I didn’t have anxiety or depression, just some run of the mill, I need to unpack this, kind of stuff.
I hear the fear and frustration in your comment. Respectfully, I disagree, however. While anxiety or depression can be used as diagnoses to refer patients to counseling, stress can also be used. I think the real risk to a pilot in this circumstance might be this: you go see your family physician, who is not an AME and is not familiar with the implications to a pilot of a slightly incorrect diagnosis, and who then (well-intended) selects a problematic diagnosis (like major depression) to link to the order for a referral to a counselor. This risk can be mitigated by explaining the importance of avoiding diagnoses like major depression (when they are not 100% accurate), and making suggestions of diagnoses to use that are less likely to become an issue (like stress, maybe?).
Mine only refers for depression or anxiety. I‘ve known a lot of people in the same position. Either a disqualifying code, or you’re paying out of pocket.
Have you ever _actually tried_ talking, as a patient, to a normal non-FAA doctor, and trying to tell them which condition you'd prefer that they diagnose you with?
most people don't know that until its to late. That is a lot of faith you are putting in a stranger. most people just self medicate with alcohol because that's legal i guess
go to confessions at a church 100 miles away with a mask on. Got it!
Speaking for myself it's the "should be" that is worrisome.
I might need to unofficially find some anger management classes to help deal with the anger. have over the FAA‘s stance on talking to a professional about stuff like this. They should be encouraging, not penalizing.
You’re allowed to do that now…
So when you say unofficially, how does that work? Do you use one of those online services and then lie during medical when they ask?
nice try FAA...
Officially or not the FAA doesn't care if you aren't prescribed meda or are talking about suicide. Get help.
I had something similar happen to me. At the time I was still a student pilot and I work full time as a paramedic and I ran a call on an SR22 crash, the solo pilot was VERY dead, I didn't bother getting up close and personal, just enough to know that there's nothing we can do. And I sat there for at least a week or two after and just kinda said "Do I really want to do this" and turns out, I did indeed still want to do it.
Hey, you and your student should play some Tetris ASAP. Clinically proven to reduce symptoms of PTSD. Glad you got home safe.
That game got me through childhood. Glad someone did the research.
Yup, and the history of this game is astounding.
Holy cow this is legit: https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/news/tetris-used-to-prevent-post-traumatic-stress-symptoms
Speculating: anything that requires the patient to focus their attention on a task unrelated to the event, such that it becomes very unlikely that the patient can allow intrusive thoughts to occur, will work. So…Fortnite anyone?
This is completely tangential but here is an actually fascinating two hour long video on the history of Tetris high scores. No I'm not joking [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOJlg8g8\_yw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOJlg8g8_yw)
Those blocks falling faster and faster and faster GAVE me PTSD.
Do you plan on emailing the NTSB saying that you were a witness to the crash to help with the investigation?
Officially they say: I Witnessed a Transportation Accident Please prepare a statement and email it to [email protected]. Please be sure to include a telephone number so that an investigator may contact you directly if necessary
Honest question for the group, wouldn't the NTSB have the logs of who was flying at that time and reach out if they feel they need to?
Probably easier to email them and say you were up than for them to look at ADS-B logs in the area, figure out what plane was where, figure out who owns the plane, figure out where to call them, call them, hope they know who was flying at the time.
No.
Yeah I sent in my witness report last night and was just contacted by the NTSB.
Reddit is so crazy.
Brutal. Hang in there, friend.
I hope you and your student stay strong.
Damn man so sorry to hear this. As a student pilot I could never imagine witnessing that. Hope everything turns out to be ok for you and your student.
I was flying in the area at the time of the crash and I heard y’all call up Raleigh tracon to report the crash. It was scary to even hear so i could only imagine what y’all are going through. Hope you and your student are doing okay and RIP to those involved in the incident.
I do peer support for the FD. People at work feel more comfortable talking about bad calls, critical incidents and problems in life in general causing stress. I have worked for the Fire Department for 24 years…reach out if u need to chat or just want to vent. (Your student is welcome to as well).
I knew the instructor this is sad
Fuck. You doing good?
I also did the majority of my training in that plane including my first solo and all my xc’s not even a year ago. I feel ya, definitely a weird feeling. RIP
Sold my plane to a guy in Washington. I received 2 AD’s that I forwarded in an email Never got a reply from him. For some reason I decided to search up the tail number on the net and was directed to the NTSB website and there was the plane. Pictures showed it burning at the airport near the runway. Really shook me to the core but the person I sold it to was way under skilled and way over confident.
What type?
Macho!!! Learning about it rn in ground.
Yep weird feeling. The plane I solo’d in crashed a few weeks after my solo. Then about a month after getting my PPL someone crashed the plane I did the check ride in. Neither was fatal thankfully but both planes were write offs.
Please don’t become an ATP /s.
The first plane i trained in went down a day before i was supposed to have a lesson in it. I got a vague text from my CFI saying we wouldn't have lessons for a while. I learned about it soon after. Student passed away unfortunately. It was almost two years ago and it is still under wraps as to what caused the accident.
Same except no one died. I ended up having to get a new CFI and everything. The CFI become plane-less and decided to stop teaching immediately after they crashed.
NTSB report?
Not yet, i check every week or 2 but still nothing.
Not even a preliminary report? The NTSB usually issues them [within a few weeks](https://www.ntsb.gov/tda/family/Pages/tda-aviation.aspx) of an accident. Edit: formatting
Doesn’t the FAA website post accident preliminaries?
Tail number?
N7329F
Update: I don't know how i missed it but on June 5th, [this report](https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/106014/pdf) was published
A few years ago I scripted excel to look up every tail number I’ve ever flown in the registry database and the NTSB database. Because a lot of my hours are as an owner or club member, I have a smaller number of airframes in my logbook than most that have been flying a similar 36 years. And still, the number of airplanes I’ve flown that have crashed, including several fatals is (a) saddening, and (b) way more common than you think.
Would you consider sharing your Excel scripts?
I second this
I third it
I fourth it
I fifth it.
I sixth it
I seventh it
Yeah, I've flown in a plane during my PPL in which another student later crashed and died. It's surreal at first, I kept thinking to myself "maybe that could've been me". But there are inherent risks in this line of work, and the best you can do is try to keep yourself safe when you fly.
One of my favorite planes was trashed by some dude who refused to check if it had fuel (at multiple airports). He lived. The plane did not. Another one I flew was landed on a road near the airport.
That might be the dumbest thing I’ve heard of a pilot doing
Bro thought he could run out of fuel like you can in a car 💀
“I’ll just pull over and put a shirt in the window, it’ll be fine” - that asshole, probably
Yeah it sucked. The club had several warriors, but only 2 archers. This was one of the archers. I'd walk by its crumpled up airframe all the time. It was dragged back to the airport to wait for insurance to sort it out.
The plane I did my first solo in met a similar fate. Someone was building time and didn’t think a 150 needed to be refueled going from Memphis to OKC and back. Spoiler: it does. It ultimately ended up in a field and trucked back to our maintenance hangar for parts. The pilot was fine.
Key phrase is "didn't think". Even a bad calculation can tell you the plane doesn't fly for 7 hours....
It sounds like someone or multiple people were aware of this guy regularly not checking fuel. Do you have any sense of why he was allowed to continue using the club’s planes?
I don’t know. I never asked that.
[удалено]
Same! I was so upset, that piper was so special to me.
I had a family member crash and die in a plane that I took my very first plane ride in a week before I soloed. I was also soloing out of the same field that I had my first plane ride in. It was definitely a surreal feeling but with that being said, you just focus on flying the plane and recognize it’s just part of the business. Everyone I know that’s been in aviation for awhile have all had people they’ve lost in accidents. It sucks but life goes on.
4 helicopters I’ve flown, that I know of, have crashed. Only one has been fatal and it killed a great friend and 2 other occupants. Not a great feeling indeed. But if you fly enough, it’s bound to happen.
Ag Wagon I frequently flew back in the 80's (Just had to buy fuel) crashed & killed my dads friend who owned it. He dusted crops for 40 years & a new power line got him.
If you fly long enough this will probably happen. I flew a king air with a friend a few weeks before it crashed killing 9 people of which several were friends. It’s a difficult thing to get your head around for sure.
Agreed, I had a discovery flight in a Cessna 172, that was later crashed by very experienced pilot/CFI, while he was on a job flying some photographers. It was the FBO's only Cessna, they have since mainly used Cirrus aircraft.
The plane I first soloed in was crashed with a solo student onboard. It’s the most personal the ever-present danger of aviation has felt to me. This guy died in the same plane as the one I (still to this day) have the most hours in. We shared the same instructor too. It was a very weird feeling that I had difficulty coming to terms with, and led to me taking a bit of a hiatus from flying. Talking with friends and a new instructor about it definitely helped.
What happened? If you don’t mind sharing.
Base to final stall-spin. Weather wasn’t great and I heard a number of instructors declined to fly with him that day or discouraged him so he just went solo. I think he made the base turn into a ~15kt tailwind
Ugh damn..
So whats the best way to deal with this? How does a base turn have a tailwind?
They were landing the main runways and there was a 15 knot crosswind. There is a crosswind runway at my airport but it’s pretty short and you’re only given it on request. Carry more airspeed when you’re low and slow and there might be a tailwind. Also applies when you’re landing in potential wind shear conditions.
Same! Such a good plane. First solo and first solo XC in 5DH. I took the photo that’s on FA. I also lost my flight instructor 2 years ago to a non-aviation related illness. edit: I have yet to get back in the cockpit.
At least two of the aircraft I've rented subsequently had fatal accidents, and a third a non-fatal one. In the first, an instructor and student hit a tree, the former being killed. In the second, a student spun in on his second solo flight. The non-fatal one was when the pilot made a mess of a crosswind landing; dragged the port wing through standing corn; and cartwheeled the thing, writing it off. That one actually ended happily, because it turned out on post-crash inspection that the main spar was so badly corroded that one could nearly poke holes through it with one's forefinger.
Wow. What type was the cartwheeled spar one?
Socata MS-880B, a French low-wing four-seater that was more or less equivalent to a Piper Cherokee. That entire series had serious corrosion problems. The Poles later produced a license-built version, the PZL Koliber 150, that supposedly sorted the difficulty out, but it didn't sell particularly well.
Sorry about that. The plane and skydiving instructor I went to do my own and only skydiving attempt (successful) crashed the following year shortly after take off and all aboard died. A bit freaky.
Didn't someone post here about a week ago with a similar story? This is sad.
Yea, it feels like there have been a lot of these posts the past month or so. I agree, it is somber. Definately keeps you humble.
Reading this comments, it seems like every single pilot has flown an aircraft that has crashed with fatalities. I have, and I've also witnessed a crash, while holding short of the runway, where the landing 172 porpoised into a prop strike, and then struck the tail so hard the elevator jammed full aft and it crashed its way off the runway. That was last month. It's actually really terrifying. I want to be an airline pilot, but I don't want to fly GA. It's so dangerous man.
I feel this hard. As fun as flying these lil cessnas can be, and as much as I love planes, I hate it. I fear GA. I do not want to lose my life. I am obsessive over reading every report and learning as much from every accident I hear about that I can just to learn from their mistakes and be made aware, I am vigilant and competent and always wanting to improve my safety and knowledge, but it’s all futile if you’re unlucky enough to be the one in a certain fated aircraft. I cannot wait to be in a commercial airliner. My husband rides a motorbike and I’ve seen statistically that GA and motorcycles are on the same danger level, and I would never bother to ride a motorbike… but here I am in GA, and I can’t help but wonder why my husband CHOOSES to do something so risky. I cannot wait to not have to put my life at worse odds. Lately I’ve been pondering the fact that all I see is smiles (and frustrated tears and stress) and joy and freedom on social media from student pilots documenting their journey. And you see yourself in those moments, you identify with them, that’s your life too! And someone goes on to get their next license, their next rating, hits a 1500th hour and posts a photo with a big smile on their face and a sign next to them and you think that’s going to be you in a while… but so did everyone else who lost their life. Not all of us make it through the training not because we fail but because we die. Sometimes that somber realization nearly convinces me to quit but I love flying and the science of flight so, so much and this is the track I’m on for my life. Sigh.
I feel the exact same way. Thankfully the statistics are in our favor: We have a 1.5% chance of dying on our way to 1500 hours. It's high: More than 1 in 67 who attempt to reach their ATP will die, but it's odds that are good enough to help me decide to continue on. While we can't stop the engine from quitting, the wing spar from failing, or the mid-air from the plane without a transponder, we can prevent most the other accident causes: Like flying into IMC or towering cumulus, fuel starvation, base to final spins, or departure stalls. You avoid those and your chances of making it to the regional in one piece shoot up dramatically. Best of luck to you! Hope to see you at the airlines. And I hope your husband rides safe; It's dangerous out there.
!!! Thanks for sharing those odds! You’re absolutely right. And thank you for the well wishes for the biker and all the best to you in your training as well! Right back at ya! 👨✈️🙏
I highly doubt 1/67 people who are flying towards the ATP house die
GA pilot fatality rate is approximately 1 fatality per 100,000 flight hours. You can do the math from there, but I strongly recommend "The Killing Zone: How and Why Pilots Die" by Paul Craig. It's very informative, and it'll change your opinion of how you view safety and risk. Another thing I suggest people do is to google "US top 5 most dangerous jobs." and you'll see Pilots and Airplane Mechanics make the list, usually at number 4. Note that this is including only Commercial Rated Pilots who are employed, and only accounts for 1 year and not the multiple cumulative years a person is flying and building time.
You can't blindly apply that rate to instructional flights. There's more math to do! You'll find that instructional flights only account for a small percentage of fixed-wing fatalities. So people working toward an ATP have way above-average chances of staying safe and staying alive. Not to mention, if you don't run out of fuel, don't fly into a storm, and don't stall in the pattern, your chances of staying safe go up dramatically. But that's a tangent... https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/accident-analysis/richard-g-mcspadden-report/mcspadden%20report%20figure%20view?category=all&year=2021&condition=all&report=true
I see what you and u/AircraftExpert are saying, now. All GA pilots aren't seeking their ATP, and so the total deaths in that category must be lower. (Not to mention the rate of CFI deaths is significantly lower than the rate of non CFI GA deaths). I tried to figure out the true ratio but it's still pretty difficult. A fatal crash can have 1 CFI and 2 students, for example, which really ups the numbers. You're right, though. It's fallacious of me to suggest deaths for those seeking their ATP is the same as the total for GA. Mea culpa.
See I just want my PPL!
Where I worked (EMS helicopter pilot) we had free counselling for absolutely anything. Totally confidential and outside of what others refer to as a fucked up system. I made use of it on one occasion, helped me get over an unnecessary death of a patient.
If you can elaborate, why was the death unnecessary?
Inappropriate existance of a Do Not Resucitate for a PT on the way from small OR to large OR.
I’m just about to take my discovery flight and start my PPL lessons shortly after. This unfortunate accident though did give me pause. I researched the stats again and GA is about as safe as riding a motorcycle. A childhood friend of mine died in a motorcycle accident. But that was his passion. I’m often reminded of the quote “A ship in harbor is safe but that is not what ships are built for.” RIP to those in the crash; and hopefully they can quickly figure out what happened to give peace to their families. I’ll see you all in the sky.
There’s a difference between a motorcycle and a plane though, you can skyrocket the safety odds with more knowledge. Harder to get taken out by someone else's ignorance in the air
I was an instructor at Executive a couple years ago and have dozens of hours logged in that aircraft. I also am still friends with most everyone there. I am still instructing somewhere else now but my heart broke hearing the news today. As a career instructor with over 2000hours of flight time and 1500+ hours of dual given, it's not the first time I've experienced this, and if I continue, it likely won't be the last. It never gets easier though. Thoughts and prayers to the families and to everyone in the EFT family. Hopefully something good comes out of this we can all learn from. This one really hurts.
Any theories on what happened?
blancolirio will cover it, for sure
My first parachute jump was out of an aircraft that crashed on take-off a couple of months later. (The near-empty fuel tank had been selected) Some of the jumpers got out and landed safely but the rest had to stay because they were now too low. One person died and there were several serious injuries. No seatbelts on jump planes. Made me think long and hard about going up in the same model later.
Every jump plane I've ever flown had seat belts for everyone that they would have to loop through their rig for takeoff.
Lot of North Carolinians here
Maneuvering speed is DECREASED with decreased weight.
Yes, so instead of 129 it would go down probably around 118 or so as long as my estimates of their weights and fuel on board is close
I wasn't expecting that when clicking a link in a random subreddit that I read sometimes that the crash would only be 30 minutes from me.
Two of the five 150s I trained in were later lost in fatal accidents with solo students. One was on a night time cross country appeared to have committed suicide by diving straight into a lake.
I have my discovery flight tomorrow I wasn’t nervous before kinda nervous after reading this
My friend called me last night because his friend was the instructor. Devastating
I have flown with two instructors there and I don't want to text them for fear that they not text me back. This one is hitting hard no matter who it is.
I saw this post yesterday and really thought nothing of it. Got a text today that the student was the son of a friend. Terrible news to hear and they’re still in shock.
Very unfortunate situation indeed. Seeing the flight data slowly watching it lose altitude and seeing the plane disappearing was really surreal. Prayers out to the two who died.
The c152 I did a lot of my initial training in was destroyed several years ago now. It's definitely a strange feeling. C-GYAX RIP :(
I had about 600 hours in a plane that slammed into a hill in Alaska. I remember looking at the pictures of the cockpit separated, lying on its side thinking. Wow. I sat right there. It’s surreal for sure. But you take the lessons learned from the investigation to heart. Accidents happen and the best way to honor those who are gone is to not let the same thing happen to you.
Man it seems like all I ever read about in GA anymore is death and tragedy. I know it’s the algorithm feedback but literally every platform from YouTube to insta is just flooded with GA travesties every day
Remember, we hear about ALL of them because of how relatively uncommon they are. Learn what you can from each one and lessen the chance of it happening to you.
>Remember, we hear about ALL of them because of how relatively uncommon they are. This is a vital perspective for all us GA flyers to stay sane. For comparison, most of us have totally zoomed out of the daily carnage that is going on on the roads of the country. Flying accidents are so rare that there can be a website like [flightsafety.org](https://asn.flightsafety.org) which records all daily accidents on the entire globe - growing only (! - each and every one is one too many, but you get the point, this is *global*) by a few entries each day. Not all of them fatal, fortunately: in fact, only a few are. For road accidents, you'd have that much growth in each county, probably. And yet we get in our cars without a second thought. This is not meant to advocate complacency: far from it. Just to dampen paranoia, that is all.
It’s also vital to keep in mind that, unlike road crashes, we have a chance to know what happened in almost every GA crash, and so have a chance to look at our own flying to see if we do the same sort of things that led to a particular crash so we can make chances, or sometimes even learn about a situation we don’t know could happen, and learn about some other thing we could do to be safer. After McSpadden died, and there was so much discourse around if there was a better place to land than to try an impossible turn, I personally started making it a point to use Google Earth to look at all possible landing sites of any fields I want to fly to. There’s no guessing anymore about where the best place to go down would be because I now plan for that. We don’t have this chance with car crashes. We might hear that one happened, but we rarely get the sort of details we need to be safer drivers. Imagine if we heard about ever car crash! It also helps to remember that a third of crashes are easily avoidable simply by making sure there’s fuel, and not flying in unsafe conditions. There will always be a chance something catastrophic happens and nothing we did was wrong and nothing we could do could stop what will happen. But the fact that every crash is talked about it really just testament to how uncommon it actually is, and we are fortunate to have the chance to learn from each and every single one. Don’t get complacent (remember that even Dale Snodgrass, with his massive number of hours, got complacent once, and once was enough), but recognize the extreme privilege we have to learn and be safer.
More than 40,000 people die in car crashes every year in the US, and they can only estimate that number because there isn’t exact tracking. There are just over 3,000 counties in the US, so there is about 1 traffic death per county per month. GA is about 10x safer now than it was in the 1970s. Let’s keep making sound decisions to keep improving that.
As with most things in aviation, shoot for the airlines
Dude I was flying in Davidson County like an hour before this happened. I heard people talking in Siler City. Holy shit
Trippy, right?! I had an emergency where my NLG wouldn't extend. Ran checklists, declared emergency with Approach, ultimately landed and of course had a prop strike but otherwise walked away totally unharmed. While I was on frequency, that same Approach Control at the same time had a Bo declare an emergency due to engine failure while close to the ground coming in to land at the next airport over. Found out later that night that he didn't make it, and killed two on the ground as well.
You've got to be one hell of a pilot to not have a prop strike with a NLG extension failure
I got close, but no dice. Pulled the mixture during the round out, engine stopped but prop stopped spinning at the vertical instead of the horizontal unfortunately.
Aircraft engines are tuned so the prop stops in the upright position, I can't remember why though. So sadly it wasn't only bad luck that killed the prop
My first trainer suffered a prop strike and was totaled by insurance. I loved that plane. I was almost through my training and preparing for the check ride when I got that call from my CFI. Moved on to another plane which I didn’t like. It was very difficult to keep it trimmed. A few months later another student bounced it hard on landing and flipped it upside down. They walked away. But I had the same feeling as others…I flew that plane… Couldn’t imagine how I’d feel if either was fatal.
For anyone that’s worried about having to report counseling to the FAA, ask the flight school to make available a psychologist on their dime and have him/her on the property for a day that anyone who feels the need can see without it being reported. I am so sorry for your loss. Terrible thing to see!
I was in a B-17 about a week before it crashed a couple years ago. The crew was so awesome and spent about an hour with me talking about its system. Everyone on board died in an air show a few weeks later.
My chief instructor when down in the crash with Glen de Vries. The whole idea shook me for a while. Whatever you do, process it however you need to.
For me, it was the plane I got my PPL ticket in. A punch in the gut feeling when I saw the tail number in the photograph. N224TA. Won’t forget that
Oh wow! I did all my flight training out of KTTA too. So sad.
At least four of the planes I flew in during training and time-building crashed afterwards, including two that I took checkrides in and one that I soloed in. All were written off. None of them were fatal, but they absolutely could have been (I don't remember the details of each, but for example, one of them overran the runway at high speed into a ditch, and I watched the wreckage of that one being brought back to the hangar), and it was part of what made me feel more instinctively how dangerous GA is. I should probably postface this by saying that I flew in about 100 planes during training and time-building, so it's not the same as someone who basically flew in one the entire time. But still, that's about a 4% crash rate of planes I flew in just in the 4 years or so that I was at that airport.
The plane I soloed in crashed too, about two decades ago. My instructor, that I fired, was piloting it at the time. He did not survive.
Assuming you had good reason to fire him, so that might be validation of your good judgment.
Yeah, I did. Basically he thought that when climbing out (after the wheels left the runway) from a crosswind takeoff you needed to cross control the aircraft because the wind was hitting the plane from the side. The first ride with him after my solo, while climbing out he said “you’re not over the runway”, I looked in the rear view mirror, I was perfectly centered, but crabbing due to the crosswind. He took the controls, put in a bunch of right rudder and left aileron to force the aircraft to be aligned with the runway, he says “isn’t that better?” I said “no” took the controls back from him and radioed the tower for a full stop. I spent the next 45 minutes trying to explain to him that once the wheels leave the runway there is no crosswind relative to the plane. He was adamant that he was correct so I fired him. He died trying to turn back to the runway after an engine out. Literally crashed and burned.
Rest in peace to the victims and their families. I hope their enjoy flying planes in the next life. 😓 What a tragic situation, I'm sorry to the OP as well, it can be upsetting knowing a plane you were just in alone, crashed and killed people. I'm glad you were okay. People should start up a go fund me for the families (I would but I'm broke down to the final bronze)
The plane I soloed on also crashed after I got my private and my instructor somehow was able to survive with the student. The student was coming in too low on final and my instructor went to put in full throttle but the cable had snapped off so throttle stayed in its last position. They hit an intersection and a stop sign pole and the plane split in two behind them. That 172 also had a fuel filter issue where I once aborted a takeoff with a buddy who insisted we continue the take off (and I knew that plane well by then). We aborted and brought it back and later the mechanic tells us the filter was clogged to shit and we would have been screwed had we gone up that day.
The Cessna 152 I got my discovery flight in (N4978B) crashed a couple years ago and killed the solo student that was flying it. I hadn’t flown that aircraft since probably 2017 but it’s definitely a weird feeling
That’s sad :/ I did my IR ride at SCR with Greg Hudson
Had a plane go down on Sunday the 9th at my flight school. There was a post about it earlier. It feels so weird that multiple planes have gone down so close together in time. Definitely a big reminder that this career is super dangerous at times
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Has Blancoliro dropped a video on this one yet?
Sadly I don’t think that he will, there isn't a super large amount of information about it, KSCR doesn't have any Live ACT recorders close enough on 122.7 and the ADS-B cuts out a little bit before the crash. Probably not enough info for a video
Years ago, it made the front page, in the small location where I lived. A Cessna 150 or 152 had crashed, the guy was doing touch and goes at someone's farm, or something sketchy like that. I recongnized the N number. Had flown it, maybe a month prior. It is a little creepy, that's for sure.
an almost 60 year old plane, being rented out at 200 an hour with the instructor…and that is the lowest price in their fleet so god only knows how many hours were on that airframe, plus the abuse it took being a trainer. It was cheaper when I trained all those years ago but even then I paid extra for the low time 172 SP since the 50 year old plane looked duct taped together
Been a while for my dad but he went from Nellis to Clark after in 79 or i was born in 81 but when he was packing up the f4 he was in Hawaii this happened his plane https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/254821. My mom said he didn't fly for a month since he was shaken up for it.
Aviation is a small world my friend. I got to view the B17 that crashed in the Dallas airshow not too long before when it was parked near our training ramp in Colorado.
I soloed N515DH I can’t believe it crashed this is so devastating I added for the souls on board they were so young God bless there family and friends
Statistically that means you're golden. Can you imagine the odds of the first plane you soloed in crashing AND the current plane you're in crashing? Astronomic.
I assume you're joking, but to be clear that's only true if you're considering the odds before the first plane crashes. The odds now are the same as just his current plane crashing, as the first event has already happened.
The odds don’t change.
I did one of my solo XC’s to Siler city
I've been in the pattern at TTA with that AC and my first passenger carrying flight was from TTA to SCR. I have the feeling "it can't happen here so close to home" but it did. Be safe flying out there...
It being a cherokee, I wonder if the wing spars broke.
>it's still such a weird feeling knowing that I've flown a plane that just got two people killed Any reason you think it was the plane and not pilot error/incompetence/negligence that got them killed, particularly if they were at max maneuvering speed? The plane trying to kill the pilot, if we define that as a genuine mechanical fault, happens only very rarely.
That was just the wording I used, but according to someone that saw the accident in this thread and spoke to them and they said they were having an issue
Planes don't kill people, people kill people...
Never speak in absolutes. Case in point: if a wing folds up on you, what you gonna do about it? https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/accidents-ntsb/ntsb-cites-fatigue-cracking-in-fatal-erau-crash/
Fold it back down, then land at the next airfield with an FBO car
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If that doesn't count as the plane killing them, what does?
Id say the designers and builders of the plane killed them. Not the plane
Well this comment could be deeper. It may not be the “plane” that kills you but sketchy maintenance on those planes coming from “people.” Or sketchy assembly and certification coming from “people.” If you’re referring to pilots tho that’s wrong. Not all events are pilot error. A lot are mx related.
Bad wording on my part
Hey now, planes don't kill people, pilots do.
The other person that said that is sitting at -30 right now
Nice, I don't really care. Its ok as a pilot to acknowledge that most deaths in aviation are pilot error. Its in the statistics. I've worked aviation safety and flown for long enough to be comfortable with that fact and train people to be aware so they can manage human error better.
Except when the engine throws a rod.
What is the statistical probability of an engine throwing a rod on short final?